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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-26-2005, 04:54 AM
One Night At Farmer’s Market…
by Ali Ataie

In the Fall of 1998, while I was a student at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, I was approached one night at a Farmers’ Market by an older gentleman who seemed as if he had an extremely pressing matter on his mind. After scanning his eyes quickly over some of the propagation tracts on our table, he started to chuckle upon noticing one tract in specific called Is Jesus Really God? Almost as if waiting for the Holy Spirit to “indwell” within him, he discreetly fixed his glare squarely upon me and began to engage himself in discussion.

First, he motioned with his finger for me to pick up the Arabic/English Yusuf ‘Ali Qur’an that was resting on the table in front of us. “Turn to the beginning of the third sura,” he said. I quickly thumbed through the pages until I got to Chapter 3 entitled Ali Imran, or the Family of Imran, the father of Moses and Aaron. “Read the third verse,” he then said grinning. I recited:

“It is He Who sent down to thee step by step, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus before this, as a guide to mankind…”

While I read, he reached into his back-pocket and pulled out a mini Bible that he had tucked away for safe keeping and, before I could even finish the verse, he interrupted triumphantly while wagging his book in the air, “Your own scripture says that you must believe in this book, yet you say that the Law of Moses and Gospel of Jesus have been corrupted.”

At this point, other on-lookers had their interest peaked and they stopped to see how I would respond. “You didn’t let me finish the verse,” I complained. “By all means” he responded. I continued:

“…And He sent down the criterion of judgment between right and wrong.”

“Do you know what the criterion between right and wrong is?” I asked. The gentleman said nothing. “The Qur’an,” I responded. Seeming perplexed by my words, I added, “Allow me to demonstrate.” I then turned to sura 4 verse 171 and read aloud:

“Say not ‘Trinity,’ desist: it will be better for you: for your god is one God.”

These words seemed to anger him slightly. “Now turn to 1 John 5:7 in your Bible and read it to me,” I said. After a few seconds of flipping through the tiny pages of his Bible the gentleman cleared his throat and read: “The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled…,” – “No, first John 5:7, not John 5:7” I exclaimed. Slightly embarrassed, the gentleman again began flipping through the pages looking for “1 John” but did not seem to be able to find it. “It’s towards the back” I said. After what seemed to be an eternity, he recited:

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

“Good” I commented. Then very much like he did, I turned around and took out three versions of the Bible I had stashed in my backpack. I said, “You read from the KJV of the Bible. I have three translations here that are more up-to-date and accurate according to Christian scholars because they are based on much older Greek manuscripts. Please find that verse in these Bibles.”

First, he picked up the RSV (Revised Standard Version) of 1952 and read: “And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.” Noticing the drastic difference, the gentleman quickly glanced at the cover of the book thinking it to be a fake, as if I were playing a joke on him.

“Now read what this says,” I said while handing him an REB (Revised English Bible). As he found 1 John he began staring at the pages in horror. “What’s wrong” I asked. “There is no seventh verse” he admitted smiling.

Finally, I handed him a NLT (New Life Translation), 1996. He found verse seven and said: “So we have these three witnesses.” I asked him to read the footnote, and he said: “Some very late manuscripts add in heaven--the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth.” Wagging the Qur’an in his face, I said, “Now do you understand why the Qur’an is the criterion between right and wrong?”
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-19-2005, 07:21 PM
*bump*
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Khattab
05-19-2005, 08:36 PM
Alhamdulillah good read
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Brother_Mujahid
05-19-2005, 09:03 PM
indeed nice read
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mule
05-20-2005, 12:34 AM
Interesting indeed.

Even Quranic english translations have differences. The muslim was just comparing english translations of the bible.

All the christian bibles agree on this doctrine.
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~fUrRrI~
05-20-2005, 01:00 AM
awesome! loved reading it :D
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-20-2005, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by mule
Even Quranic english translations have differences. The muslim was just comparing english translations of the bible.
Mule, the differences in Qur'anic translations are incomparable to the various versions of the Bible. Are you telling me the thousands of Christian denominations are merely fight over translation errors?

Let's take up you challenge mule, and compare the translations of the Qur'an with the versions of the Bible.

From the article, let's compare what you consider minor differences:
KJV 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

RSV 1 John 5:7 "And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.”

REB 1 John 5:7 OMMITTED

NLT 1 John 5:7 “So we have these three witnesses.”


Now, let's compare the differences in the Qur'anic translations. If you have any particular verse in mind, you can let me know, but for now I will pick a random verse.

The thing is, for our translations, we have the original arabic text so we can easily verify the source and authenticity of each translation. Let's look at Furqaan (The Criterion) 25:1...

YUSUFALI: Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;
PICKTHAL: Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to the peoples.
SHAKIR: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations
KHAN-HILALI: Blessed be He Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong, i.e. this Qur'ân) to His slave (Muhammad ) that he may be a warner to the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)


Nowhere do we find the OMMISIONS, or drastic differences we find in the bible. THe only differences are purely from choice during translation.

In any event, we have the original arabic Qur'an, with NO versions or differences, and there is no equivalent Bible.

:w:
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mule
05-20-2005, 03:22 AM
The biggest changes I have see is in the nonchristian translated bibles vs. the bible. And in that I would agree with you that something had been tampered with. But in the translations that you list the doctrines all agree. Some translations are better then others.

I myself just like the King James.

I think you are putting your conditions on how God would preserve his word.


In any event, we have the original arabic Qur'an, with NO versions or differences, and there is no equivalent Bible.
Ok........how do I put this polite-like? You need to find out where the word of God is.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-20-2005, 08:07 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by mule
I think you are putting your conditions on how God would preserve his word.
I don't think so, mule. God made it a test for previous nations to preserve the word of God, but they failed. With His Final revelation, God has promised to preserve it Himself, so the test this time is in spreading the message to all humanity.

We know a message has not been preserved when there are fundamental changes from one version to another.

Ok........how do I put this polite-like? You need to find out where the word of God is.
Mule, Muslims believe that the Bible was originally revealed by God, But as you have admitted yourself, it has been tampered with. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. The Qur'an is God's final message, which serves as a criterion in discerning truth from falsehood.

3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

:w:
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mule
05-21-2005, 12:22 AM
Ok. I do believe that only the jewish translation and the jw translations have been fiddled with but they are just english translations.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-21-2005, 12:25 AM
:sl:
Translation from which language?
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mule
05-21-2005, 12:28 AM
I don't think so, mule. God made it a test for previous nations to preserve the word of God, but they failed. With His Final revelation, God has promised to preserve it Himself, so the test this time is in spreading the message to all humanity.

We know a message has not been preserved when there are fundamental changes from one version to another.
Well, then if you think that the bible is so corrupted then don't use it to prove your religion. It's really hard to take you seriously when you say your prophet is prophesied about within its pages.
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Khattab
05-21-2005, 12:34 AM
When he is mentioned by name its hard to miss
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mule
05-21-2005, 12:50 AM
Why do you call yourself a soldier? Why do you have a picture of an army?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-21-2005, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by mule
Well, then if you think that the bible is so corrupted then don't use it to prove your religion. It's really hard to take you seriously when you say your prophet is prophesied about within its pages.
Mule, i think i've explained this many times before. I am not using it to prove my religionb, I don't need to. But we believe that the scriptures were originally from God, and were corrupted, but some traces of the truth remain. And the truth contains prophecies about God's final messenger.

The Qur'an is the criterion which allows us to discern the true parts of the Bible from the works of humans.

:w:
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_salam_
05-21-2005, 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by mule
Why do you call yourself a soldier? Why do you have a picture of an army?
Because we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty fanatics and we're coming to kill all the non-Muslims!!!!! ;D
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Khattab
05-21-2005, 06:11 PM
Brother salam summed it up :D

Why do you call yourselves God's children?
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NoName55
03-25-2007, 06:34 AM
mashaAllah very inspiring story

:sl:
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Woodrow
03-25-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
mashaAllah very inspiring story

:sl:
:w:

Mashallah, I agree. I had not seen this thread before. This is fantastic.
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Al_Imaan
06-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Very interesting, Mash'allah.
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Walter
06-07-2007, 10:38 PM
Hi Ansar:

It was a good story, and one of the things that it teaches us is that we should never be too confident in our present state of understanding. As we continue to understand more, we may release what we previously thought that we could never release and hold onto another position. Why? Because we have a more complete understanding.

This issue of the Trinity has been a cause of distrust between us for over 1,300 years. It is not obligatory for Christians to believe in the Trinity. We believe that there is only one God, the God of Abraham, and that a personal relationship with Him is possible. We also believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The rest is tradition. Therefore as we communicate, we can learn more about each other if we do not exceed these limits.

Regards,
Grenville
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Woodrow
06-08-2007, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Ansar:

It was a good story, and one of the things that it teaches us is that we should never be too confident in our present state of understanding. As we continue to understand more, we may release what we previously thought that we could never release and hold onto another position. Why? Because we have a more complete understanding.

This issue of the Trinity has been a cause of distrust between us for over 1,300 years. It is not obligatory for Christians to believe in the Trinity. We believe that there is only one God, the God of Abraham, and that a personal relationship with Him is possible. We also believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The rest is tradition. Therefore as we communicate, we can learn more about each other if we do not exceed these limits.

Regards,
Grenville
Grenville, you and a few others do show it is possible for Christians and Muslims to discuss in Peace. Thank You for your willingness to understand even when you do not agree. Communication has a chance in this world if we can distribute that attitude.
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north_malaysian
06-08-2007, 06:42 AM
When I saw the topic... I thought that this thread is about shopping :-[
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Khayal
07-11-2007, 05:41 AM
:sl:

Very interesting, jazakAllah khair.

:w:
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E'jaazi
07-11-2007, 06:04 AM
Nice Post!
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