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kadafi
06-29-2005, 02:37 PM
By Shamshad.M.Khan

A question that repeatedly arises is that concerning the 'position of women in Islâm'. Muslim scholars have been able with great success - despite the onslaught of distortion and misrepresentation - to demonstrate the true position of Muslim women; especially of women's liberation in the advent of Islâm. The Islamic ruling on issues such as inheritance, the right to earn, the right to own property etc. have reinforced this position and have been prescribed by Allâh - the One True God - long before western nations even thought of such concepts!

The issue of two women witnesses in place of one man is the concern of the present treatise. As will become clear to the sincere and objective reader, the intellectual status of a Muslim woman is neither marred nor degraded by the commandment that if two Muslim male witnesses are not available then one Muslim male and two Muslim females should be invited to witness. Rather, this injunction is in perfect harmony with the nature and psychology of the woman as will become evident through quotations from psychologists, psychiatrists and medical research.

The passage of the Qur'ân (Baqarah 2:282) in which the above-mentioned requirement is made has usury, capital and debtor difficulties as its theme. Allâh grants guidelines in matters relating to monetary obligations. Then business transactions are dealt with. In this section, the requirement to commit all transactions into writing is stated most emphatically (Reduce them to writing...). The section after this describes the responsibility of the scribe, or in modern parlance, the person responsible for drawing up the agreement. The following section describes the responsibility and the obligation of the person incurring the liability. The section after this explains how if the party that is liable cannot effectively draw up the contract - out of being deficient or weak mentally, or being unable to dictate - then his or her guardian should help draw out the contract and choose two suitable witnesses to observe. It must be understood that this situation arises if it is not possible for the liable party to draw out the contract by him/herself. The condition to put things into writing is still supreme. The next section then explains that two men should be called to witness and if two men are not available (And if there are not two men...) then a man and two women. The legislation then continues and reminds most emphatically that one should not be complacent about putting ALL agreements into writing - no matter whether these agreements are major or minor as this is more JUST in the sight of Allâh and more reliable as evidence. The passage of the Qur'ân further explains that for practical reasons it may not always be possible to commit on-the-spot agreements into writing. In this case, it is also recommended that it be witnessed. The section which follows then lays down the guidelines which should be followed in the event that no witnesses are present.

The purpose in giving the above outline is to draw attention to the fact the question of women witnesses relates, in this instance, to commercial agreements and is not a statement on their status.

Let's look at the section under investigation in more detail. Allâh said:
And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her... [Baqarah 2:182]
A number of questions (as well as eyebrows!) are raised when this section of the passage is read. The questions often posed include:

Do women have weaker memories than men?
Why should two women be needed in the place of one man?
Are women inferior to men?

One must remember that Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam was neither a physiologist, a psychiatrist and nor a surgeon. He was an illiterate and could neither read nor write. He passed on the revelation exactly as he received it. Allâh, the Creator, with His infinite wisdom gave the directives best suited to humankind. He is the Creator, therefore, He knows man better than a man himself.

In this scientific age we can explore the significance of this legislation. A great deal has been discovered since the early days of Islâm. And each day of advancement brings about a better understanding of the the last and final revelation from the Creator, Allâh to the creation, humankind. As women, we are aware of the cyclical psychological strains that a woman has to encounter every month. The symptoms during early pregnancy, ante-natal and post-natal depressions, the phenomenon of menopause, the physiological and psychological problems due to infertility and last but not least the psychological problems faced after miscarriage.

It is under these situations that women can experience extraordinary psychological strains giving rise to depression, lack of concentration, slow-mindedness and short term memory loss. Let us examine these episodes in a bit more detail and with medical references from the scientific world. PMT is an umbrella term for more than 140 different symptoms and there is a lot of evidence that it causes a lot of unhappiness in many women, and consequently, to their families.

Psychiatry in Practice, April 1983 issue states:
"Forty percent of women suffer from pre-menstrual syndrome in some form and one in if our women have their lives severely disrupted by it. Dr Jill Williams, general practitioner from Bury, gives guidelines on how to recognise patients at risk and suggests a suitable treatment." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.14]
In the same issue, George Beaumont reporting on the workshop held at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in London on pre-menstrual syndrome, says:
"Some authorities would argue that 80 percent of women have some degree of breast and abdominal discomfort which is pre-menstrual but that only about 10 percent complain to their doctors - and then only because of severe tenderness of the breasts and mental depression... Other authorities have suggested that pre-menstrual syndrome is a new problem, regular ovulation for 20 years or more being a phenomenon caused by 'civilisation', 'medical progress', and an altered concept of the role of women." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.18]
In its examination of the occurrence of physical and psychological change during the period just prior to the onset of menstruation we read in Psychological Medicine:
"Many studies have reported an increased likelihood of various negative affects during the pre-menstrual period. In this affective category are many emotional designations including irritability, depression, tension, anxiety, sadness, insecurity, lethargy, loneliness, tearfulness, fatigue, restlessness and changes of mood. In the majority of studies, investigators have found it difficult to distinguish between various negative affects, and only a few have allowed themselves to be excessively concerned with the differences which might or might not exist between affective symptoms." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.6]
In the same article dealing with pre-menstrual behavioural changes we read:
"A significant relationship between the pre-menstrual phase of the cycle and a variety of specific and defined forms of behaviour has been reported in a number of studies. For the purpose of their review, these forms of behaviour have been grouped under the headings of aggressive behaviour, illness behaviour and accidents, performance on examination and other tests and sporting performance." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.7]
The lengthy review portrays how female behaviour is affected in these situations. In 'The Pre-menstrual Syndrome', C. Shreeves writes:
"Reduced powers of concentration and memory are familiar aspects of the pre-menstrual syndrome and can only be remedied by treating the underlying complaint."
This does not mean, of course, that women are mentally deficient absolutely. It just means that their mental faculties can become affected at certain times in the biological cycle. Shreeves also writes:
"As many as 80 percent of women are aware of some degree of pre-menstrual changes, 40 percent are substantially disturbed by them, and between 10 and 20 percent are seriously disabled as a result of the syndrome."
Furthermore, women face the problem of ante-natal and post-natal depression, both of which cause extreme cycles of depression in some cases. Again, these recurring symptoms naturally affect the mind, giving rise to drowsiness and dopey memory.

On the subject of pregnancy in Psychiatry in Practice, October-November 1986, we learn that:
"In an experiment 'Cox' found that 16 percent of a sample of 263 pregnant women were suffering from clinically significant psychiatric problems. Eight percent had a depressive neurosis and 1.9 percent had phobic neurosis. This study showed that the proportion of pregnant women with psychiatric problems was greater than that found in the control group but the difference only tended towards significance." [Psychiatry in Practice, October-November, 1986, p.6]
Regarding the symptoms during the post-natal cycle Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:
"The third category of puerperal psychiatric problems is post-natal depression. It is generally agreed that between10 to 15 percent of women become clinically depressed after childbirth. These mothers experience a variety of symptoms but anxiety, especially over the baby, irritability, and excessive fatigue are common. Appetite is usually decreased and often there are considerable sleep difficulties. The mothers lose interest in the things they enjoyed prior to the baby's birth, and find that their concentration is impaired. They often feel irrational guilt, and blame themselves for being 'bad' wives and mothers. Fifty percent of these women are not identified as having a depressive illness. Unfortunately, many of them do not understand what ails them and blame their husbands, their babies or themselves until the relationships are strained to an alarming degree." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]

" ... Making the diagnosis of post-natal depression is not always easy. Quite often the depression is beginning to become a serious problem around three months postpartum when frequent contact with the health visitor is diminishing. The mother may not present with depressed mood. If she comes to the health centre presenting the baby as the patient, the true nature of the problem can be missed. When the mother is continually anxious about the baby in spite of reassurance, then the primary health care worker needs to be aware of the possibility of depression. Sometimes these mothers present with marital difficulties, and it is easy to muddle cause and effect, viewing the accompanying low mood as part of the marital problem. Sometimes, only when the husband is seen as well does it become obvious that it is a post-natal depressive illness which has led to the deterioration in the marriage." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]*
Again there is a need to study the effects of the menopause about which very little is known even to this day. This phase in a woman's life can start at any time from the mid-thirties to the mid-fifties and can last for as long as 15 years.

Writing about the pre-menopausal years, C.B. Ballinger states:

"Several of the community surveys indicate a small but significant increase in psychiatric symptoms in women during the five years prior to the cessation of menstrual periods... The most obvious clinical feature of this transitional phase of menstrual function is the alteration in menstrual pattern, the menstrual cycle becoming shorter with age, and variability in cycle length become very prominent just prior to the cessation of menstruation. Menorrhagia is a common complaint at this time, and is associated with higher than normal levels of psychiatric disturbance." [Psychiatry in Practice, November, 1987, p.26]

On the phenomenon of menopause in an article in Newsweek International, May 25th 1992, Dr. Jennifer al-Knopf, Director of the Sex and Marital Therapy Programme of North-western University writes:
" ... Women never know what their body is doing to them ... some reporting debilitating symptoms from hot flashes to night sweat, sleeplessness, irritability, mood swings, short term memory loss, migraine, headaches, urinary inconsistence and weight gain. Most such problems can be traced to the drop-off in the female hormones oestrogen and progesterone, both of which govern the ovarian cycle. But every woman starts with a different level of hormones and loses them at different rates. The unpredictability is one of the most upsetting aspects. Women never know what their body is going to do to them ... "
Then there are the psychiatric aspects of infertility and miscarriage. On the subject of infertility, Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:
"Depression, anger and guilt are common reactions to bereavement. In infertility there is the added pain of there being nobody to grieve for. Families and friends may contribute to the feeling of isolation by passing insensitive comments. The gynaecologist and GPs have to try to help these couples against a backdrop of considerable distress." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.16]
On the subject of miscarriage the above article continues:
"Miscarriage is rarely mentioned when considering abortion. However, miscarriage can at times have profound psychological sequelae and it is important that those women affected receive the support they need. Approximately one-fifth of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion and the effects are poorly recognised. If however, the miscarriage occurs in the context of infertility, the emotional reaction may be severe. The level of grief will depend on the meaning of pregnancy to the couple." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.17]
Also, the fact that women are known to be more sensitive and emotional than men must not be overlooked. It is well known, for example, that under identical circumstances women suffer much greater anxiety than men. Numerous medical references on this aspect of female behaviour can be given but to quote as a specimen, we read in 'Sex Differences in Mental Health' that:
"Surveys have found different correlates of anxiety and neuroticism in the two sexes. Women and men do not become equally upset by the same things, and being upset does not have the same effect in men as in women. Ekehammer (1974; Ekehammer, Magnusson and Ricklander, 1974) using data from 116 sixteen-year-olds, did a factor analysis on self-reported anxiety. Of the eighteen different responses indicating anxiety (sweating palms, faster heart rate, and so on) females reported experiencing twelve of them significantly more often than males. Of the anxiety-producing situations studied, females reported experiencing significantly more anxiety than males reported in fourteen of them." [Katherine Blick Hoyenga and Kermit T. Hoyenga in Sex Differences in Mental Health, p.336]
It is in light of the above findings of psychologist, psychiatrists and researchers that the saying of Allâh, the Exalted:
And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - SO THAT IF ONE OF THEM ERRS, THE OTHER CAN REMIND HER ... [Baqarah 2:182]
can be understood. One must also bear in mind that forgetfulness can be an asset. A woman has to be put up with children presenting all kinds of emotional problems and a woman is certainly known to be more resilient than man. The aim of presenting these research findings on a number of aspects related with the theme is to indicate that a woman by her biological constitution faces such problems. It does not however make her inferior to man but it does illustrate that she is different. Viewed in this way, it can only lead one to the conclusion that Allâh knows His creation the best and has prescribed precise laws in keeping with the nature of humankind.

Allâh, the Creator is - as always - All-Knowing and man (or the disbeliever in Allâh and the final, perfected, revealed way of life, Islâm) is - as usual - either ignorant and arrogant.

* As has been mentioned above the Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam was neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. Rather, he merely conveyed the truth that was revealed to him. It is in the context of this quotation and the one before it that the following saying of the Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam can be understood: "Treat your women kindly. The woman has been created from a rib, and the most curved part of a rib is its upper region. If you try to straighten it you will break it, and if you leave it as it is, it will remain curved. So treat women kindly." And in another narration: "If you try to straighten her you will break her and breaking her means divorce." [Reported by al-Bukhârî and Muslim]. This is very important advice for the man - for him to have patience and not to try to 'reform' the behavioural pattern of the woman during these times i.e. 'to straighten her'. He will not be able to do that, as it is biological in origin. Instead, he should maintain and protect his relationship with her by showing kindness.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-29-2005, 05:55 PM
:sl:

Great thread. I've seen a lot of answers/articles to this issue by many scholars so insha'Allah I will post those as well. For now I was trying to post an excerpt from Bilal Phillip's book on this issue, but the text wouldn't copy so I have to post it as an image.

PreviewSp001 1 -

:w:
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Bittersteel
06-29-2005, 06:09 PM
great posting.

EDIT~You could rename women's rights and liberty in Islam and post more about women's rights.That is just a suggestion.
Reply

Halima
07-01-2005, 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
great posting.

EDIT~You could rename women's rights and liberty in Islam and post more about women's rights.That is just a suggestion.

That is a great idea as what we sisters have been striving to do all along.
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Bittersteel
07-01-2005, 10:10 AM
Should shut up the mouths of those who say Islam gives no rights to women.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-01-2005, 02:39 PM
:sl:
There are thousands of articles on that. We want to focus on a specific topic about women. If you want to ask about another topic, you're welcome to do so.

Please also check the women's issues on the Load-Islam main page.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-03-2005, 12:06 AM
:sl:

Question:

Why are two witnesses who are women, equivalent to only one witness who is a man ?

Answer by Dr. Zakir Naik:

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:

"Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her." [Al-Qur’an 2:282]

This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman.

While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Oh you who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."[Al-Qur’an 5:106]

Two just persons of your own (brotherhood) or other from outside if you are journeying through the earth and the chance of death befalls you."[Al-Qur’an 65:2]


Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq."Four witnesses are required in case of charge against chaste women, [Al-Qur’an 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:

"And those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence can be received."[Al-Qur’an 24:6]


Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness

Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.

Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

:w:
Reply

Preacher
07-04-2005, 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
Should shut up the mouths of those who say Islam gives no rights to women.
:sl:

What I wonder that why Muslims' lips are sealed? Why Muslims don't demand the proof about what right Bible and/or Christrianity does give to the woman? Why some of us don't augment our studies of the Bible and pin down the accusers? Here is another angle this question is addressed.

Woman’s Testimony in Islaam!

Regards
Reply

Bittersteel
07-04-2005, 08:22 AM
What I wonder that why Muslims' lips are sealed? Why Muslims don't demand the proof about what right Bible and/or Christrianity does give to the woman? Why some of us don't augment our studies of the Bible and pin down the accusers? Here is another angle this question is addressed.
to those I have encountered during such discussions they are mainly all atheists.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-04-2005, 09:05 PM
:sl:
Where have you 'encountered' these atheists? Which forum? Or is it in real life?

:w:
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Umm Yoosuf
07-05-2005, 03:10 PM
Islam....how great!!! Alhmdulilaah!
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Bittersteel
12-22-2005, 03:34 PM
According to Sharia -
Two female winesses=1 man's testimony
why?

:sl:
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sapphire
12-22-2005, 03:36 PM
because that is what Allah has said....really we shouldnt question it as the brain does not have to comprehend with wahi.........
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Khaldun
12-22-2005, 03:42 PM
:sl:

Surah Al-Baqarah enjoins upon us that whenever we deal in loans, we should state it in writing and have two men to witness it. Further on it says: If we do not have two men, then make a man and two women as witnesses. It raises the following question:

(i) Why does it necessitate two women in place of one man?

The Quran itself explains why should there be two women. That if one of them gets confused or becomes perplexed, and errs or forgets, the other one would remind here. The verse reads as follows:

O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let ascribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding,or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two gets confused and errs or forgets, the second of the two may remind the other; ...[2:282]

There are three points worth noting in the above verse:

1. This verse is about loan dealings (however, the principle of two witnesses may equally be applicable to other situations).

2. The priority is to seek two men as witnesses and do not bother women to be witnesses, since Quran sees a different role for women than men in a society, due to their biological and psychological differences as compared to men. However, IF two men are not avaiable, women should be asked to bear witness.

3. The purpose of the second woman is to remind the first one IF the first one gets confused and errs or forgets something.

This raises another question:

Why has it been said, particularly about women, that if one is confused and errs then the other would remind her?

Quran had in view societies in which women were brought up in adornments and who in matters of dispute could not make themselves clear [43:18]. This still applies to many societies in today's world. The second woman is only to prompt the first one IF the first one gets confused and errs or forgets something. If the first one does not get confused and does not err or forget something, there is no need of the second woman's witness, although the second would remain present at the time of witness (just to be on the safe side).

In short, it is not the case that one man's witness is equal to two women's witness but one man's witness is equal to one woman's witness, however, there should be another woman present along with a woman witness, just to prompt her IF she gets confused and errs or forgets something.

Source
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azim
12-22-2005, 03:45 PM
There's a very good explanation on the Load Islam website, read up on it.

Main point to remember is that the 2 women = 1 men thing is mentioned for financial and murder testimonials, with adultery and other crimes, the Quran makes no distinction.
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safwana
12-22-2005, 03:57 PM
:sl:

because a women is not on the leval of a male the same way a lady can not lead sallah

:w:
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Ghazi
12-22-2005, 04:39 PM
Salaam

We shoudn't question why when there's clear evidence of something it should be "We Hear and We obey"
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-22-2005, 07:05 PM
Threads merged
Originally Posted by Abrar
According to Sharia -
Two female winesses=1 man's testimony
why?

:sl:
:sl: Br. Abrar,
Please use existing threads for the continuation of this discussion. It is unnecessary to simply repeat the same material over and over again, which was previously answered.

Please also see the debate on this topic in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...als-islam.html

:w:
Reply

Halima
12-22-2005, 09:52 PM
Salaam,

Brother Abrar please take a look:

starting topic to re-discuss the same one 20 % warning per topic



Please search before creating a similar topic insha'Allah.
Reply

Bittersteel
12-23-2005, 05:03 AM
okay o forgot there already was one,sorry.I do have a poor memory.
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Snowflake
01-02-2006, 12:36 AM
lol Brother Abrar shushhh having poor memory is one reason why two female witnessess are required.. :giggling:

MashaAllah an excellent and very beneficial post brother Kadafi. JazakAllah for that.
Reply

iqbal_ibn_adam
01-18-2006, 07:34 PM
salaam

MashaAllah an excellent thread any sis still have question, coz i know few who said why two women till i showed them the proof

jazakallah khair akhi Kadafi
Reply

Snowflake
01-18-2006, 08:05 PM
Personally I'm glad there has to be two female witnesses cuz my I've got the worst memory ever! Less pressure that way!!! :-[
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iqbal_ibn_adam
01-18-2006, 08:54 PM
lol

Allah (swt) had done this for a reason and that reason is what u jus said
Reply

Snowflake
01-18-2006, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_ibn_adam
lol

Allah (swt) had done this for a reason and that reason is what u jus said

SubhanAllah, true Allah knows best :)
Reply

cool_jannah
02-28-2006, 03:33 AM
:salamext:

A question that repeatedly arises is that concerning the 'position of women in Islâm'. Muslim scholars have been able with great success - despite the onslaught of distortion and misrepresentation - to demonstrate the true position of Muslim women; especially of women's liberation in the advent of Islâm. The Islamic ruling on issues such as inheritance, the right to earn, the right to own property etc. have reinforced this position and have been prescribed by Allâh - the One True God - long before western nations even thought of such concepts!
The issue of two women witnesses in place of one man is the concern of the present treatise. As will become clear to the sincere and objective reader, the intellectual status of a Muslim woman is neither marred nor degraded by the commandment that if two Muslim male witnesses are not available then one Muslim male and two Muslim females should be invited to witness. Rather, this injunction is in perfect harmony with the nature and psychology of the woman as will become evident through quotations from psychologists, psychiatrists and medical research.
The passage of the Qur'ân (Baqarah 2:282) in which the above-mentioned requirement is made has usury, capital and debtor difficulties as its theme. Allâh grants guidelines in matters relating to monetary obligations. Then business transactions are dealt with. In this section, the requirement to commit all transactions into writing is stated most emphatically (Reduce them to writing...). The section after this describes the responsibility of the scribe, or in modern parlance, the person responsible for drawing up the agreement. The following section describes the responsibility and the obligation of the person incurring the liability. The section after this explains how if the party that is liable cannot effectively draw up the contract - out of being deficient or weak mentally, or being unable to dictate - then his or her guardian should help draw out the contract and choose two suitable witnesses to observe. It must be understood that this situation arises if it is not possible for the liable party to draw out the contract by him/herself. The condition to put things into writing is still supreme. The next section then explains that two men should be called to witness and if two men are not available (And if there are not two men...) then a man and two women. The legislation then continues and reminds most emphatically that one should not be complacent about putting ALL agreements into writing - no matter whether these agreements are major or minor as this is more JUST in the sight of Allâh and more reliable as evidence. The passage of the Qur'ân further explains that for practical reasons it may not always be possible to commit on-the-spot agreements into writing. In this case, it is also recommended that it be witnessed. The section which follows then lays down the guidelines which should be followed in the event that no witnesses are present.
The purpose in giving the above outline is to draw attention to the fact the question of women witnesses relates, in this instance, to commercial agreements and is not a statement on their status.
Let's look at the section under investigation in more detail. Allâh said:
And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her... [Baqarah 2:182]
A number of questions (as well as eyebrows!) are raised when this section of the passage is read. The questions often posed include:
Do women have weaker memories than men?
Why should two women be needed in the place of one man?
Are women inferior to men?
One must remember that Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam was neither a physiologist, a psychiatrist and nor a surgeon. He was an illiterate and could neither read nor write. He passed on the revelation exactly as he received it. Allâh, the Creator, with His infinite wisdom gave the directives best suited to humankind. He is the Creator, therefore, He knows man better than a man himself.
In this scientific age we can explore the significance of this legislation. A great deal has been discovered since the early days of Islâm. And each day of advancement brings about a better understanding of the the last and final revelation from the Creator, Allâh to the creation, humankind. As women, we are aware of the cyclical psychological strains that a woman has to encounter every month. The symptoms during early pregnancy, ante-natal and post-natal depressions, the phenomenon of menopause, the physiological and psychological problems due to infertility and last but not least the psychological problems faced after miscarriage.
It is under these situations that women can experience extraordinary psychological strains giving rise to depression, lack of concentration, slow-mindedness and short term memory loss. Let us examine these episodes in a bit more detail and with medical references from the scientific world. PMT is an umbrella term for more than 140 different symptoms and there is a lot of evidence that it causes a lot of unhappiness in many women, and consequently, to their families.
Psychiatry in Practice, April 1983 issue states:
"Forty percent of women suffer from pre-menstrual syndrome in some form and one in if our women have their lives severely disrupted by it. Dr Jill Williams, general practitioner from Bury, gives guidelines on how to recognise patients at risk and suggests a suitable treatment." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.14]
In the same issue, George Beaumont reporting on the workshop held at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in London on pre-menstrual syndrome, says:
"Some authorities would argue that 80 percent of women have some degree of breast and abdominal discomfort which is pre-menstrual but that only about 10 percent complain to their doctors - and then only because of severe tenderness of the breasts and mental depression... Other authorities have suggested that pre-menstrual syndrome is a new problem, regular ovulation for 20 years or more being a phenomenon caused by 'civilisation', 'medical progress', and an altered concept of the role of women." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.18]
In its examination of the occurrence of physical and psychological change during the period just prior to the onset of menstruation we read in Psychological Medicine:
"Many studies have reported an increased likelihood of various negative affects during the pre-menstrual period. In this affective category are many emotional designations including irritability, depression, tension, anxiety, sadness, insecurity, lethargy, loneliness, tearfulness, fatigue, restlessness and changes of mood. In the majority of studies, investigators have found it difficult to distinguish between various negative affects, and only a few have allowed themselves to be excessively concerned with the differences which might or might not exist between affective symptoms." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.6]
In the same article dealing with pre-menstrual behavioural changes we read:
"A significant relationship between the pre-menstrual phase of the cycle and a variety of specific and defined forms of behaviour has been reported in a number of studies. For the purpose of their review, these forms of behaviour have been grouped under the headings of aggressive behaviour, illness behaviour and accidents, performance on examination and other tests and sporting performance." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.7]
The lengthy review portrays how female behaviour is affected in these situations. In 'The Pre-menstrual Syndrome', C. Shreeves writes:
"Reduced powers of concentration and memory are familiar aspects of the pre-menstrual syndrome and can only be remedied by treating the underlying complaint."
This does not mean, of course, that women are mentally deficient absolutely. It just means that their mental faculties can become affected at certain times in the biological cycle. Shreeves also writes:
"As many as 80 percent of women are aware of some degree of pre-menstrual changes, 40 percent are substantially disturbed by them, and between 10 and 20 percent are seriously disabled as a result of the syndrome."
Furthermore, women face the problem of ante-natal and post-natal depression, both of which cause extreme cycles of depression in some cases. Again, these recurring symptoms naturally affect the mind, giving rise to drowsiness and dopey memory.
On the subject of pregnancy in Psychiatry in Practice, October-November 1986, we learn that:
"In an experiment 'Cox' found that 16 percent of a sample of 263 pregnant women were suffering from clinically significant psychiatric problems. Eight percent had a depressive neurosis and 1.9 percent had phobic neurosis. This study showed that the proportion of pregnant women with psychiatric problems was greater than that found in the control group but the difference only tended towards significance." [Psychiatry in Practice, October-November, 1986, p.6]
Regarding the symptoms during the post-natal cycle Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:
"The third category of puerperal psychiatric problems is post-natal depression. It is generally agreed that between10 to 15 percent of women become clinically depressed after childbirth. These mothers experience a variety of symptoms but anxiety, especially over the baby, irritability, and excessive fatigue are common. Appetite is usually decreased and often there are considerable sleep difficulties. The mothers lose interest in the things they enjoyed prior to the baby's birth, and find that their concentration is impaired. They often feel irrational guilt, and blame themselves for being 'bad' wives and mothers. Fifty percent of these women are not identified as having a depressive illness. Unfortunately, many of them do not understand what ails them and blame their husbands, their babies or themselves until the relationships are strained to an alarming degree." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]
" ... Making the diagnosis of post-natal depression is not always easy. Quite often the depression is beginning to become a serious problem around three months postpartum when frequent contact with the health visitor is diminishing. The mother may not present with depressed mood. If she comes to the health centre presenting the baby as the patient, the true nature of the problem can be missed. When the mother is continually anxious about the baby in spite of reassurance, then the primary health care worker needs to be aware of the possibility of depression. Sometimes these mothers present with marital difficulties, and it is easy to muddle cause and effect, viewing the accompanying low mood as part of the marital problem. Sometimes, only when the husband is seen as well does it become obvious that it is a post-natal depressive illness which has led to the deterioration in the marriage." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]*
Again there is a need to study the effects of the menopause about which very little is known even to this day. This phase in a woman's life can start at any time from the mid-thirties to the mid-fifties and can last for as long as 15 years.
Writing about the pre-menopausal years, C.B. Ballinger states:
"Several of the community surveys indicate a small but significant increase in psychiatric symptoms in women during the five years prior to the cessation of menstrual periods... The most obvious clinical feature of this transitional phase of menstrual function is the alteration in menstrual pattern, the menstrual cycle becoming shorter with age, and variability in cycle length become very prominent just prior to the cessation of menstruation. Menorrhagia is a common complaint at this time, and is associated with higher than normal levels of psychiatric disturbance." [Psychiatry in Practice, November, 1987, p.26]
On the phenomenon of menopause in an article in Newsweek International, May 25th 1992, Dr. Jennifer al-Knopf, Director of the Sex and Marital Therapy Programme of North-western University writes:
" ... Women never know what their body is doing to them ... some reporting debilitating symptoms from hot flashes to night sweat, sleeplessness, irritability, mood swings, short term memory loss, migraine, headaches, urinary inconsistence and weight gain. Most such problems can be traced to the drop-off in the female hormones oestrogen and progesterone, both of which govern the ovarian cycle. But every woman starts with a different level of hormones and loses them at different rates. The unpredictability is one of the most upsetting aspects. Women never know what their body is going to do to them ... "
Then there are the psychiatric aspects of infertility and miscarriage. On the subject of infertility, Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:
"Depression, anger and guilt are common reactions to bereavement. In infertility there is the added pain of there being nobody to grieve for. Families and friends may contribute to the feeling of isolation by passing insensitive comments. The gynaecologist and GPs have to try to help these couples against a backdrop of considerable distress." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.16]
On the subject of miscarriage the above article continues:
"Miscarriage is rarely mentioned when considering abortion. However, miscarriage can at times have profound psychological sequelae and it is important that those women affected receive the support they need. Approximately one-fifth of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion and the effects are poorly recognised. If however, the miscarriage occurs in the context of infertility, the emotional reaction may be severe. The level of grief will depend on the meaning of pregnancy to the couple." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.17]
Also, the fact that women are known to be more sensitive and emotional than men must not be overlooked. It is well known, for example, that under identical circumstances women suffer much greater anxiety than men. Numerous medical references on this aspect of female behaviour can be given but to quote as a specimen, we read in 'Sex Differences in Mental Health' that:
"Surveys have found different correlates of anxiety and neuroticism in the two sexes. Women and men do not become equally upset by the same things, and being upset does not have the same effect in men as in women. Ekehammer (1974; Ekehammer, Magnusson and Ricklander, 1974) using data from 116 sixteen-year-olds, did a factor analysis on self-reported anxiety. Of the eighteen different responses indicating anxiety (sweating palms, faster heart rate, and so on) females reported experiencing twelve of them significantly more often than males. Of the anxiety-producing situations studied, females reported experiencing significantly more anxiety than males reported in fourteen of them." [Katherine Blick Hoyenga and Kermit T. Hoyenga in Sex Differences in Mental Health, p.336]
It is in light of the above findings of psychologist, psychiatrists and researchers that the saying of Allâh, the Exalted:
And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - SO THAT IF ONE OF THEM ERRS, THE OTHER CAN REMIND HER ... [Baqarah 2:182]
can be understood. One must also bear in mind that forgetfulness can be an asset. A woman has to be put up with children presenting all kinds of emotional problems and a woman is certainly known to be more resilient than man. The aim of presenting these research findings on a number of aspects related with the theme is to indicate that a woman by her biological constitution faces such problems. It does not however make her inferior to man but it does illustrate that she is different. Viewed in this way, it can only lead one to the conclusion that Allâh knows His creation the best and has prescribed precise laws in keeping with the nature of humankind.
Allâh, the Creator is - as always - All-Knowing and man (or the disbeliever in Allâh and the final, perfected, revealed way of life, Islâm) is - as usual - either ignorant and arrogant.
* As has been mentioned above the Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam was neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. Rather, he merely conveyed the truth that was revealed to him. It is in the context of this quotation and the one before it that the following saying of the Prophet Muhammad sallâllahu 'alayhi wa sallam can be understood: "Treat your women kindly. The woman has been created from a rib, and the most curved part of a rib is its upper region. If you try to straighten it you will break it, and if you leave it as it is, it will remain curved. So treat women kindly." And in another narration: "If you try to straighten her you will break her and breaking her means divorce." [Reported by al-Bukhârî and Muslim]. This is very important advice for the man - for him to have patience and not to try to 'reform' the behavioural pattern of the woman during these times i.e. 'to straighten her'. He will not be able to do that, as it is biological in origin. Instead, he should maintain and protect his relationship with her by showing kindness.


By Shamshad.M.Khan
With modifications and additions by Abû 'Iyâd
Reply

ivanna25
04-06-2006, 05:56 PM
I have a question to my brothers and sisters. Do u know why Mohammad said to one of his wifes : "nakissato aklin wa din"??? or " they are defecient in terms of their religion practices and mental abilities", and why the testimony of one man equals the testimony of two women? does this really mean degrading the mental potentialities of women? or it has another meaning?

wa salam.
Reply

waji
04-06-2006, 06:26 PM
:sl:
well sister reading ur post i remembered a speach of an Alim the experience he got
That Alim is a teacher in a school the principal is a lady and other ladies are working in school too One day the lady who use to collect fees, came to the principal room and she was crying, where alim was already there in principal room descussing something when lady came principal tried to stop her from crying but the lady was crying on top of her voice and soon principal joined her and started crying and Alim was just stunned there watching all that after a while when both ladies stopped and principal asked the matter and what she found a receive slip number was not correct and principal was angry on her as it was not that big matter on which she has to cry

so u see a women can get emotional with others not knowing what happen, it happens unintentionally so sister that is one of the reason i see that
testimony of one man equals the testimony of two women

u can ask ur self too but u have to be true with ur self

and sister i don't find anything funny in it why ur posted is here
:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
04-06-2006, 08:16 PM
:salamext:


I think you should check this thread out sis:


Why two women witnesses?
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...witnesses.html


:wasalamex
Reply

ivanna25
04-07-2006, 10:15 AM
Salam alkoum,

first, when I learnet about the reason why one woman's testimony is not enough, I was astonished.
Secondly, i will tell the scientific reason why two woman' testimony is equal to one man testimony. I heared the explanation in Arabic from a great scholar "ZINDANI". And because I am a literay student I will try to explain to you through my own modest way.

Well, AS WE KNOW THAT OUR BRAINS IS DIVIDED INTO TWO HALVES. EACH PART HAS A FUNCTION. FOR WOMEN, BOTH THE TWO HEMISPHERES OR PARTS ARE RESPONSIBLE OF THE WOMAN'S SPEECH AS WELL AS MEMORY. ON THE OTHER HAND, MAN BRAIN IS DIVIDED TO TWO HALVES. ONE HEMISPHERE IS RESPONSIBLE OF SPEECH ALONE, AND THE OTHER HEMISPHERE IS RESPONSIBLE OF MEMORY ALONE. THATS IS TO SAY, WHEN A WOMAN TALKS, THE TWO PARTS OF HER BRAIN ARE FUNCTIONING AT THE SAME TIME, AND WHEN SHE REMEBERS SOMETING, THE TWO PARTS ARE FUNCTIONING. SO, WHEN A WOMAN IS ASKED BY A JUDGE IN A COURT, OR ASKED BY ANYONE ELSE TO TELL AND REMEMBER WHAT HAPPNED AT THE SAME TIME, THE TWO HEMISPHERES OF HER BRAIN ARE FUNCTIONING AT THE SAME TIME, AND SO THE ACT OF TELLING THE STORY MAY DISTRACT HER ATTENTION TO REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY. IN THIS CASE, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE TWO WOMEN RATHER THAN ONE. ONE WOMAN TELLS THE STORY AND RECOUNT WHAT SHE WITNESSES AND OTHER WOMAN (WHO IS A WITNESS OF THE SAME INCIDENT) LISTENS TO THE SPEECH AND USES HER MEMORY AND REMIND THE OTHER OF WHAT HAPPENS EXACTLY.

IN THIS IS MENTIONED IN THW QURAN, THAT IF ONE WOMAN FORGETS OR MISSES SOMTHING, THE SECOND WOMAN REMINDS HER. ON THE CONTRARY, WHEN A MAN RECOUNTS AND TELLS THE TRUTH, EACH HALF OF HIS BRAIN FUNCTIONS PROPERLY, BECAUSE EACH PART OF HIS BRAIN FUNCTIONS SEPERATELY.

THE FACT THAT THE TWO HEMISPHERES OF WOMAN'S BRAIN ARE BOTH RESPONSIBLE OF SPEECH DENOTES WHY WOMAN ARE MORE TALKATIVE THAN MEN.

BESIDES, WHAT IS STATED ABOVE, THE WOMEN ARE MORE EMOTIONAL THAN MEN. A WOMAN MAY HIDES SOME THINGS BECAUSE SHE MAY FEEL PITY FOR SOMEONE, WHILE MAN IS MORE RATIONAL AND HE IS NOT VERY IMPRESSED BY HIS EMOTIONS.

I KNOW I HAVE A BAD ENGLISH, BUT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AND TELL IT IN YOUR OWN WAY AND IN YOUR PERFECT ENGLSIH. IM AFTER ALL ARABIC AND MY ENGLISH IS NOT LIKE ENGLISH PEOPLE OR THE ARABS WHO LIVE ABROAD.

AL HAMDOLILAH ALLDI HADANA LI HADA WA MAKOUNA LI NAHTADI LAWELA AN HADANA ALLAH.
THANKS TO GOD WHO HAS GUIDED US TO THE RIGHT PATH.
SALAM ALAYKOM.
Reply

ivanna25
04-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Salam alkoum,

first, when I learnet about the reason why one woman's testimony is not enough, I was astonished.
Secondly, i will tell the scientific reason why two woman' testimony is equal to one man testimony. I heared the explanation in Arabic from a great scholar "ZINDANI". And because I am a literay student I will try to explain to you through my own modest way.

Well, AS WE KNOW THAT OUR BRAINS IS DIVIDED INTO TWO HALVES. EACH PART HAS A FUNCTION. FOR WOMEN, BOTH THE TWO HEMISPHERES OR PARTS ARE RESPONSIBLE OF THE WOMAN'S SPEECH AS WELL AS MEMORY. ON THE OTHER HAND, MAN BRAIN IS DIVIDED TO TWO HALVES. ONE HEMISPHERE IS RESPONSIBLE OF SPEECH ALONE, AND THE OTHER HEMISPHERE IS RESPONSIBLE OF MEMORY ALONE. THATS IS TO SAY, WHEN A WOMAN TALKS, THE TWO PARTS OF HER BRAIN ARE FUNCTIONING AT THE SAME TIME, AND WHEN SHE REMEBERS SOMETING, THE TWO PARTS ARE FUNCTIONING. SO, WHEN A WOMAN IS ASKED BY A JUDGE IN A COURT, OR ASKED BY ANYONE ELSE TO TELL AND REMEMBER WHAT HAPPNED AT THE SAME TIME, THE TWO HEMISPHERES OF HER BRAIN ARE FUNCTIONING AT THE SAME TIME, AND SO THE ACT OF TELLING THE STORY MAY DISTRACT HER ATTENTION TO REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED EXACTLY. IN THIS CASE, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE TWO WOMEN RATHER THAN ONE. ONE WOMAN TELLS THE STORY AND RECOUNT WHAT SHE WITNESSES AND OTHER WOMAN (WHO IS A WITNESS OF THE SAME INCIDENT) LISTENS TO THE SPEECH AND USES HER MEMORY AND REMIND THE OTHER OF WHAT HAPPENS EXACTLY.

IN THIS IS MENTIONED IN THW QURAN, THAT IF ONE WOAMN FORGETS OR MISSES SOMTHING, THE SECOND WOMAN REMINDS HER. ON THE CONTRARY, WHEN A MAN RECOUNTS AND TELLS THE TRUTH, EACH HALVE OF HIS BRAIN FUNCTIONS PROPERLY, BECAUSE EACH PART OF HIS BRAIN FUNCTIONS SEPERATELY.

THE FACT THAT THE TWO HEMISPHERES OF WOMAN'S BRAIN ARE BOTH RESPONSIBLE OF SPEECH DENOTES WHY WOMAN ARE MORE TALKATIVE THN MEN.

BESIDES, WHAT IS STATED ABOVE, THE WOMEN ARE MORE EMOTIONAL THAN MEN. A WOMAN MAY HIDES SOME THINGS BECAUSE SHE MAY FEEL PITY FOR SOMEONE, WHILE MAN IS MORE RATIONAL AND HE IS NOT VERY IMPRESSED BY EMOTIONS.

I KNOW I HAVE A BAD ENGLISH, BUT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AND TELL IT IN YOPUR OWN WAY AND IN YOUR PERFECT ENGLSIH. IM AFTER ALL ARABIC AND MY ENGLISH IS NOT LIKE ENGLISH PEOPLE OR THE ARABS WHO LIVE ABROAD.

AL HAMDOLILAH ALLDI HADANA LI HADA WA MAKOUNA LI NAHTADI LAWELA AN HADANA ALLAH.
THANKS TO GOD WHO HAS GUIDED US TO THE RIGHT PATH.
SALAM ALAYKOM.
Reply

renak
04-07-2006, 11:37 AM
There probably is some truth to this posting. Women do tend to to make more decisions based on their emotions than men do. Thanks for the post.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-07-2006, 02:57 PM
You know it's really hard to read caps lock.
Reply

ivanna25
04-07-2006, 03:09 PM
but do u understand my sister AlMuminah?
Reply

afriend
05-04-2006, 07:26 PM
Jazakallah khair bro Ansar and bro Khaldun for your articles, especially the one by Dr. Zakir Naik...:wub:
Reply

Joe98
10-11-2006, 04:40 AM
So, men and women's roles in Islam are prescribed.

Due to those roles, women's memories cannot be trusted.

Is that the correct explanation?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
So, men and women's roles in Islam are prescribed.
Yes.
Due to those roles, women's memories cannot be trusted.
No and no. Both parts of the statement and blatantly false. Nothing changes due to those roles, those roles only reflect the natural inherent physical and pyshcological differences in men and women.

And Islam never ever states that women's memories cannot be trusted, otherwise why is Aisha rd one of the MOST prolific narrators of Ahâdith, having narrated 2210? Rather there are somethings that women remember better than men and there are other things that men can remember better than women and there are some things that they can do equally.
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...bsection=Women

Do yourself a favor and read the article properly. The differences in memory retention are from inherent psychological differences in the sexes and not prescribed role.
Reply

sama2001
10-14-2006, 11:59 PM
the simple answer as i know that may one of the two women forget some thing then the other can remind here.there is aya in quraan shows that but really i can't remember for now i'll search for it insha allah
also women usually think with here emotions, she is more passionate so it musn't rule . that's all i know wallahu aalm.
Reply

chris4336
12-12-2006, 02:17 PM
I am just curious because I am a female medical student, along with 50 other females in my class of 100. We are often required to remember complex calculations that involve advanced mathematics. This type of math is very similar to math involved in financial transactions. We also are required to recall these calculations on our own, without the help of anyone reminding us. It is also very important that these calculations be recalled in highly emotional times (ie when someone is close to death).

Would you recommend that women not go into medicine based on the idea that by nature women cannot remember certain things as well as men?

Would send yourself (your wife) to a female doctor? Would you trust the doctor to make these calculations properly when your life is on the line? Then how could you not trust a women's testimony in a financial matter, and say that women cannot remember certain things as well?
Reply

Snowflake
12-12-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
So, men and women's roles in Islam are prescribed.

Due to those roles, women's memories cannot be trusted.

Is that the correct explanation?
As a woman I tell you women's memories cannot be trusted. That doesn't mean islam is degrading us. It's just the awareness in islam of a woman's emotional/hormonal state and the consequences. Why do you think women make shopping lists eh!?
Reply

chris4336
12-12-2006, 02:50 PM
Okay Muslim Sis, if you don't mind my asking is your physician a male or a female?

Would you ever consider going to a female physician?

Please keep in mind that the field of medicine requires a tremendous amount of memorization, in a lot of different areas, including mathematics and spatial relationships.
Reply

Snowflake
12-12-2006, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Okay Muslim Sis, if you don't mind my asking is your physician a male or a female?

Would you ever consider going to a female physician?

Please keep in mind that the field of medicine requires a tremendous amount of memorization, in a lot of different areas, including mathematics and spatial relationships.
Ha! My GP is female and she doesn't need a good memory. That's why we have medical records.
Reply

chris4336
12-12-2006, 03:46 PM
Ha trust me there is no way she got through medical school without a good memory.
Reply

Snowflake
12-12-2006, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Ha trust me there is no way she got through medical school without a good memory.
lol islam doesn't say women don't have a memory at all. So of course she had a good memory and probably a good bit of revision too!

Women generally do have a bad memory though..that's why contraceptive pills are marked with days of the week. And it's not muslim companies who manufacture them. ;D
Reply

soulsociety
12-12-2006, 04:53 PM
:sl:

In case of Lian, woman's witness is equal to a man.

Has anyone considered that two women witnesses are so that men may believe them and not necesarily that there is something wrong with women?

Also has there been a study of female witnesses in western courts?
Reply

chris4336
12-12-2006, 05:23 PM
I don't deny the research that shows men use different parts of their brain for different activities or that women experience premenstural syndrome and associated manifestations. But I think it is a pretty big leap to take that research and say "See look at this, its obvious that all women are incapable of remembering enough to serve as a witness" when clearly there are a ton of women who are very capable.

Maybe men remember financial details better, but that does not mean that women cannot remember them at all. And that does not mean all women. Do any of these studies show that women are so bad at remembering these that 2 of them seems necessary.

It seems strange that you guys trust Aisha with all those Hadiths but you do not think one women is sufficient to remember one financial transaction? You will go to female doctors expecting that she'll calculate the dosage of you medicine correctly, but if this same doctor were looking over a contract you would tell her "We need to have someone else to witness, because you are a woman, and women are not very good at remembering these things?"

I personally prefer the explanation that in an Islamic society men were generally involved more in financial transactions as the breadwinners, therefore they would be more familiar with the transactions. Sure your research states there are different areas that men and women excel in, but none of this research shows that one woman is incapable of serving as a witness without a reminder.
Reply

chris4336
12-12-2006, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by soulsociety
:sl:
Has anyone considered that two women witnesses are so that men may believe them and not necesarily that there is something wrong with women?
I find this reasoning much better than the assumption that women cannot remember financial transactions well enough to serve as a witness without a partner.

Also, I think the reason birth control pills are labeled with the day is because their dosage varies by the time of the month they are taken. So you cannot just throw them all in a little bottle and tell women to "Take one a day" becaues you will not be getting the correct dosage.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
12-12-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Would you recommend that women not go into medicine based on the idea that by nature women cannot remember certain things as well as men?
Actually, the opposite is the case. In Islamic law there is a collective obligation on women to enter the field of medicine to that females can be treated by female physicians.

Concerning memory, one of the most prolific narrators of hadith is A'ishah [may Allah be pleased with her], who narrated 2210 hadith - way more than the majority of the Prophet's male companions. Also, in hadith sciences, the testimony of a woman and a man is considered equal. So there is nothing wrong with women's memory, from the Islamic perspective.
Reply

Snowflake
12-12-2006, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
Also, I think the reason birth control pills are labeled with the day is because their dosage varies by the time of the month they are taken. So you cannot just throw them all in a little bottle and tell women to "Take one a day" becaues you will not be getting the correct dosage.
You think wrong. The dosage doesn't vary. It's because a missed pill can result in pregnancy.

think we've gone off topic hmmm...
Reply

T@z@belle
12-29-2006, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
According to Sharia -
Two female winesses=1 man's testimony
why?

:sl:
cuz i womans testimony may be ove-emotional and not really factual....in other words a woman may natrually get carried away wif her emotions but that wont usually apply to a man.
Reply

IceQueen~
12-29-2006, 07:53 PM
Masha Allah that was an interesting read...
nice view of the hadith about the rib because many ppl have interpreted that as women being inferior and less intelligent by nature...:rollseyes
Reply

YusufNoor
12-30-2006, 01:51 AM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem


I’m not sure adding anything here is wise. Instinct tells me to run and hide…:omg:

I was listening to Mufti Ismail Menk’s Cape Tour 2005. The 1st cd is “Muslim Women…Are They Oppressed?” the Mawlanna studied in the Medina at the Faculty of Shariah and completed the Iftah course at Darul Uloom Kantana, India. He is the Imaam at the largest Musaajid in Harare, Zimbabwe.

While discussing the difference of women and men and particularly in relation to testifying in murder cases:

Hawa means, “created from something living”, Adam’s rib; as opposed to Adam, “created from something dead” earth, dust. Therefore, because she was created from something living woman has much more mercy than man. A mother has more mercy towards her children than the father, etc.

The woman will by nature, take into consideration the family, especially the mother, of the defendant. Her level of mercy, being so much greater than a man, will have an impact on her wanting to testify, especially if the defendant is the sole breadwinner for the family. In cases where the death penalty isn’t at stake, the woman will also consider the safety of her family when the defendant gets out of jail. These factors can lead to the woman not wanting to testify at all. She will at least think twice.

Thus, unlike with men, the woman will also be able to confer amongst themselves during testimony, whether it is for emotional support, or for fact relying. Men can’t do that. Form the Muftis’ point of view; the stature of women is raised in this matter.

of course, it all sounded so much better from the mouth of the Mufti...:-[


:w:

Yusuf
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-30-2008, 04:39 PM
:sl:

Ahh I didn't see this before. I'm glad it was on here. JazakAllah Khair for all the answers.

:w:
Reply

*noor
07-02-2008, 01:59 AM
:sl:

So what exactly does this following hadith mean? May someone please explain it? Thanks

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)
Reply

*noor
07-02-2008, 03:52 PM
Bump :bump:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-02-2008, 03:54 PM
Hey I wana know that too, InshaAllah.
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Keltoi
07-02-2008, 11:06 PM
Personally, and not as any kind of statement pro or con, I have met many more dramatic men than women. Most of the women I've known in my life were the most logical, least dramatic, and more straight forward than most of the men. :)
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Whatsthepoint
07-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Has anyone considered that two women witnesses are so that men may believe them and not necesarily that there is something wrong with women?
If the Quran said women's testimony is equal to that of men, the latter would have to believe them, no matter what.

That's one the things I can't get to terms with in Islam. How the entire system is based on stereotypes about genders or other groups of people, when it should focus on the individual instead.
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aamirsaab
07-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If the Quran said women's testimony is equal to that of men, the latter would have to believe them, no matter what.

That's one the things I can't get to terms with in Islam. How the entire system is based on stereotypes about genders or other groups of people, when it should focus on the individual instead.
It's not stereotyping, rather it's encompassing the differences between both genders. Here's an example; biologically, the male human has a bigger physique than a female human of same age. Another example; female humans have menses, male humans do not. Are those stereotypes? No, just differences between man and female. And just as our biology is different so to is our psychology.

I don't know enough about that hadith that noor posted, so cannot make any comment. I do believe that part of it is based on context and so the hadith is targeted at a specific group of women as opposed to women in general but I cannot comment further than this.

Edit: A quick search on Google, found this link :http://www.answering-christianity.co...of_hadiths.htm

Now I don't know the validity of that site but the answer is of considerable length. Search on that page (using ctrl+F) for Answering false claim nr.7.
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Whatsthepoint
07-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
It's not stereotyping, rather it's encompassing the differences between both genders. Here's an example; biologically, the male human has a bigger physique than a female human of same age. Another example; female humans have menses, male humans do not. Are those stereotypes? No, just differences between man and female. And just as our biology is different so to is our psychology.
It probably is to a certain extent, still not enought to discriminate women. Besides, you'll find the differences in psychology within one gender are also enormous, probabyl greater than the general dofferences between men and women.
The modern society is a proof enough women are no less capable than men in all walks of life (except perhaps for physical labour) and that they are equally reliable as wittnesses.
So, yes it is stereotyping and generalising.
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aamirsaab
07-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It probably is to a certain extent, still not enought to discriminate women. Besides, you'll find the differences in psychology within one gender are also enormous, probabyl greater than the general dofferences between men and women.
The modern society is a proof enough women are no less capable than men in all walks of life (except perhaps for physical labour) and that they are equally reliable as wittnesses.
So, yes it is stereotyping and generalising.
Perhaps you are right. In any case, the above hadith (that sister Noor gave) is clarified with the link I posted. It was as my initial thoughts were; contextual based and not a general rule of thumb.
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purple
01-30-2011, 12:56 AM
:sl:
Interesting read but I agree with this statement....


Originally Posted by chris4336
I personally prefer the explanation that in an Islamic society men were generally involved more in financial transactions as the breadwinners, therefore they would be more familiar with the transactions. Sure your research states there are different areas that men and women excel in, but none of this research shows that one woman is incapable of serving as a witness without a reminder.
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