Invoking others other than Allah???

[shanu]

Assalamu alaikum
im in great need 4 ur help?
I learned religion on my own even though i was born muslim. Im of indian origin. And i dont accept some things my parents do as i feel they contradict with the Quran. Since young, when things go missing in the house, my mom asks this "auliya puppa" to help us find this? N after some time we get this. But what i feel upset about it is. isnt this shirk???? Allah is All mighty? I asked my mom who is this? And she says that its those who died in wars of islam and so on? She says that if we make du'a to these auliyas, they will tell God? But they are humans too, and they have passed away? how can they make dua? doesnt this sound like priests in hiduislm where they are the median between seeker and God??? But why ask this people when we ask God directly.?? Allah has said in Surah fateha, to worship him only and to seek help from him? Isnt it wrong to ask humans to make dua as they are duas will be better accepted as they are special? Is there such a thing? Is this even permissable. I read an article in Sunnipath they say we can use them as medians, as long as we dont pray to them???? I dont understand. I need help.

[Umu 'Isa]

as far as i know that definately is shirk.. tell ur parents to refrain from that coz it is a serious sin and will not be forgiven by Allah (swt)

[shanu]

I got my answers
its shirk all ryte!!! :D
'Wasila' - Intercession, Ways of Intervention...



Below are the selected passages from a scholarly response given by a learned Scholar Brother Burhan to a few questions on the above subject. To read the entire response, with the quotations from the Hadeeths, and the bio date of Brother Burhan, who happens to be a former Mustealiyyan Shiah Ismaili, please visit:

http://www.islamhelpline.com/



Question:

Brother I want to ask that how much extent the wasila of imams, noble companions, prophet is correct because many time I heard in a darees that "mera soya hai muqadar aey hussain ab jaga do" and etc., I say to my family Allah can do everything, so beg directly to Allah but they said that we take wasila then I said your wasila should be your prayers, ibadaats, deeds, so please tell me that by how much extent wasila should be correct?



Answer:

Beloved brother in Islam, to assume that by invoking in the unseen the righteous imams, or the noble companions of the Holy Prophet (saws), or even the Noble Prophet (saws) himself, or invoking anyone in the Universe other than the One and Only True Lord of the Worlds would be a clear and manifest form of the unforgivable crime of ‘shirk’ in Islam.



To assume that any of the pious departed slaves of Allah Subhanah, or anyone else in creation other than Allah Subhanah Alone can hear one’s invocations in the unseen, let alone has the power and ability to answer them or get them answered, is a clear and manifest form of the most heinous of sins: ‘shirk’ with Allah Subhanah.



One of the Noble and Exclusive Attributes of Allah Subhanah is that He Alone is the All-Hearing or ‘Al-Samee’. To assume that anyone or anything in creation can hear us in the unseen, let alone having the ability and power to answer or respond to our invocations, is to share one of Allah Subhanah’s Exclusive and Sole Attributes with one amongst His creation; and that is a clear and manifest form of the sin of ‘shirk’!



There is not a major Surah in the Quran, where Allah Subhanah has not warned the believers against this heinous practice and abomination of taking ‘wasila’, or invoking others with Allah Subhanah in the unseen! The noble and pious departed slaves of Allah Subhanah never advocated such a practice, nor did it behove them to do so!



Just study these Aayahs of the Glorious Quran to understand and comprehend the Wrath and Anger of Allah Subhanah on those who invoke other beings in creation with Allah Subhanah:



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 16 Surah Nahl verse 20-21: All the other beings, whom the people invoke with Allah, create nothing! Nay, they are themselves created! They are DEAD, not living, and they do not at all know themselves when they shall again be raised to life!



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 10 Surah Yunus verse 66: Note it well that all the dwellers of the heavens and the earth belong to Allah. And those who invoke others besides Allah, follow nothing but surmises and merely indulge in guess-works!



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 35Surah Fatir verses 13-14: He merges night into day, and day into night, and he has subjected the Sun and the Moon (to His Law); each one runs its course for an appointed term. Such is Allah, your Lord! To Him belongs all Dominion. Those whom you invoke besides Him, do not own even a blade of grass! If you call them, they cannot hear your prayers! And if they hear, they cannot answer you! And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your ‘shirk’. None can inform you of the Truth, like the One Who is acquainted with all things.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 46 Surah Ahqaf verses 4-6: Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever seen them with open eyes those whom you invoke instead of Allah? Show me what they have created in the earth? Or have they any share in the creation and control of the heavens? Bring me a Book revealed before this, or produce some remnant of knowledge in support of your beliefs if you are truthful." And who could be further astray than the one who invokes, instead of Allah, those who cannot answer him till the Day of Resurrection. Nay, they are even UNAWARE THAT THEY ARE BEING INVOKED. And when all mankind shall be gathered together (on the Day of Qiyamah), they (the so called leaders and intercessors) will become enemies of those who invoked them and they will DISOWN THEIR WORSHIP!!!



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumur verse 2-3: So worship Allah Alone, making your religion His exclusively. Beware! Religion is the exclusive Right of Allah. As for those who have taken other ‘auliyas’ (guardians) with Allah (and justify their this conduct by saying): “We serve them only that they may bring us closer to Allah.” Allah will surely judge between them concerning all that in which they differ. Allah does not show guidance to any liar and denier of the Truth.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 10 Surah Yunus verse 18: These people serve beside Allah those which can neither harm nor benefit them, and say, “These are our ‘shofa’a’ (intercessors) with Allah!” (O Mohammed), tell them, “Do you wish to inform Allah of that thing which He knows not in the heavens or in the earth?” He is absolutely free from, and exalted above the shirk that they commit.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 19 Surah Maryam verses 81-82: These people have set up other gods that Allah, so that they may become their supporters! There will be no supporters! They will not only disown your worship, but also become their opponents.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter16 Surah Nahl verses 86-87: When the people who had committed shirk in this world will see those whom they had made associates with Allah, they will say, “Our Lord, here are those associate-deities whom we used to invoke besides You.” At this their deities will retort, “You are liars!” At that time, all of them will proffer submission before Allah, and all that they used to forge in this world shall vanish from them.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 7 Surah Aaraf verse 190-196: They associate with Allah partners who do not create anything, but are themselves created; who cannot help them nor have the power (even) to help themselves! If you invite them to follow the Right Way, they will not follow you! It will be all the same for you whether you call them or keep silent. Those whom you invoke with Allah are MERE SERVANTS OF ALLAH LIKE YOU! Just invoke them, and if what you say of them be true, they will answer your prayers! Have they feet that they should walk with them? Or have they hands that they should hold with them? Or have they eyes that they should see with them? Or have they ears that they should hear with them? Tell them, O Mohammed, “Call up the partners you have set up, and then all of you sit down together and plot against me, and give me no respite. My Protector and Helper is Allah, Who has sent down this Book (Al Quran), and, it is He who protects the righteous people.”



Invoking other beings in creation in the unseen is a clear manifestation of the abomination and ‘the’ most heinous of sins in the deen of Islam, that is, ‘shirk’! Allah Subhanah has singled out this one sin as absolutely ‘unforgivable’ on the Day of Judgment, and has guaranteed the everlasting and unending punishment of the Fire of Hell to all those who die in the state of ‘shirk’, no matter what amount of good deeds they might have done! Such is the gravity of this abomination of ‘shirk’ or invoking other beings in creation in the Sight of Allah Subhanah, the One and Only Lord of the Worlds!



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 5 Surah Maidah verse 72: Whoever commits ‘shirk’ (invoking anything with Allah), Allah shall forbid for him Paradise, and Hell shall be his abode. And for such wrong doers there will be no one to help.



Allah says in the Quran: Chapter 4 Surah An-Nisa Verse 48: Shirk (associating other deities with Allah) is the only sin that Allah does not forgive, and He forgives, whomsoever He pleases, sins other than this. For whosoever associates any other partner with Allah, does indeed forge a big lie and commits the most heinous sin



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumar verse 65-66: If you commit ‘shirk’ all your works will be rendered vain and you will be among the losers. Therefore, you should worship Allah Alone, and be among His grateful servants.



Question:

Brother I want to ask that how much extent the wasila of imams , noble companions , prophet is correct because many time I heard in a darees that "mera soya hai muqadar aey hussain ab jaga do"?



Answer:

The meaning of the Urdu invocation "mera soya hai muqadar aey hussain ab jaga do" would translate in English to: “O Hussen, please wake up my sleeping destiny now!”; which basically means to ask the righteous and beloved grandson of the Prophet (saws), Imam Hussain ibn Ali Talib (r.a.), to help, invigorate or change or ‘wake-up’ the good destiny of the suppliant!!!



To assume that this righteous and beloved grandson of the Prophet (saws), or anyone in creation, can hear the supplicant or invocation of the person in the unseen (let alone respond to it!!!) is to raise the status of the righteous and obedient slave of Allah Subhanah like Imam Hussain (r.a.) to the rank of the Only One Who is Capable and Able of Hearing and Responding to all in His Creation, The One and Only All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Knowing Lord of the Worlds, Allah Subhanah wa Taala! And that is nothing, but a clear and open manifestation of the abomination of ‘shirk’!



Question:

Am I right when I say to my family Allah can do everything, so beg directly to Allah?



Answer:

Indeed, our beloved and dear brother in Islam, it is Allah Subhanah ALONE Who can and does hear, and respond to all our invocations. He Alone is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Knowing, and knows even the inner-most secrets and desires of our hearts. He Alone is the All-Mighty and All-Powerful, and He Alone has the Ability and Means to answer all our invocations. He Alone is our Creator and Sustainer, and He Alone deserves our invocations, our worship, our absolute obedience, and our total and absolute submission! And this is the precise Message of The Oneness of Allah Subhanah or ‘Tawheed’ that was taught by each and every Messenger of Allah to mankind.



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 186: And if My servants ask you, O Prophet, concerning Me, tell them that I am quite near to them. I hear and answer the prayer of the suppliant, when he calls on Me. So let them respond to My call and believe in Me. (Convey this to them), perhaps they may be guided aright!



Question:

Am I correct when I said; your wasila should be your prayers, ibadaats, deeds?



Answer:

Indeed, our beloved brother in Islam, if one takes the term ‘wasila’ to mean a way or approach to get close to Allah Subhanah with one’s ‘taqwa’ or God-consciousness and ones own righteous good deeds; that is a state highly recommended by Allah Subhanah.



Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 5 Surah Maidah verse 35: O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him (‘wasila’), and strive with might and main in His cause: that ye may prosper.



If one takes the term ‘wasila’ out of its original context to mean glorifying, serving, and invoking other beings in creation in the unseen as a way or approach to get things from Allah Subhanah, that would be a clear and open manifestation of the abomination of ‘shirk’.



Whatever written of Truth and benefit is only due to Allah’s Assistance and Guidance, and whatever of error is of me. Allah Alone Knows Best and He is the Only Source of Strength.

[thc]

According to the ahle sunnah wal jammaah (which sunnipath.com follows) it is not shirk.

When muslims go to these saints graves/dargahs/mazaara/tombs whatever you want to call them some DO shirk by performing sijdah to them or doing acts of ibaadat directly to them.

Using waseela means that one prays to Allaah using their waseela meaning that they make duaa for you as according to the ahle sunnah wal jamaah these saints are alive in their graves anD can make dua to Allaah.

Some muslims say that these saints are dead that is why they do not believe in waseela.

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[Muslim Soldier]

Salaam

I am not a scholar but here are my views

When you are afriad or shy about meeting or asking someone something, you ask someone who is closer to this person to ask on your behalf.
The same way, in times of difficulties, if you ask through the prophet or shaheed since they are closer to Allah, they ask on your behalf hence your hajaat is accepted.

Example
Allah gave Hazrat Isa the power to cure the sick. Now when people went to him and asked him to cure them, Isa (as) cured them. Is this shirk? No

Why?
because Isa cured through the grace of Allah. The same way when your parents ask through the shaheed, they ask the shaheed to ask Allah to grant the wish.

[extinction]

I dont think I should comment as I'm not a scholar yet something disturbs me so I'm going to say this.......to ask using a beloved of Allahs name is permissible because I remember reading about if someone uses the ashabs' name who participated in badr its a likely chance his dua would get accepted but asking directly to a dead person I think is shirk.!! before any of you start saying what are you talking about I'm going to back what I'm saying if you go to medina you will see the Prophet P.b.u.h grave and when people are making dua to the grave (asking the prophet for favours) you want to know what the guards have been ordered to do is tell you to turn around pray facing the kibla and ASK Allah s.w.t now no awliyah or sahabi or anyone (may Allah be pleased with them all) is superior in the eyes of Allah yet we are told to ask Allah ........so conclusion you can say Allah please help me with such such and thing in the fact that I am your beloved prophet s.a.w's ummati

[Nawal89]

Salaam

I am not a scholar but here are my views

When you are afriad or shy about meeting or asking someone something, you ask someone who is closer to this person to ask on your behalf.
The same way, in times of difficulties, if you ask through the prophet or shaheed since they are closer to Allah, they ask on your behalf hence your hajaat is accepted.

Example
Allah gave Hazrat Isa the power to cure the sick. Now when people went to him and asked him to cure them, Isa (as) cured them. Is this shirk? No

Why?
because Isa cured through the grace of Allah. The same way when your parents ask through the shaheed, they ask the shaheed to ask Allah to grant the wish.

Are you saying here that it's ok to ask the dead to make Dua for you? When People went to Isa (as) and asked him to cure them, He was there and Allah gave him that ability. Still There has never been any narration that any of the Sahabah making tawassul with Isa (as) to make dua for them and as we know he is still alive. What about dead people? Saints or not saint, we're not supposed to ask teh dead for help. They are dead. They cannot do anything to help you.

But for example if you go to a sheikh or someone who is ALIVE , who is capable of making dua, Then there are many hadeeths that the sahabahs went to the prophet to ask him to make dua for them. So that kind of wasilah, there is nothing wrong with that.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

definitly shirk sis... none is worth prayin to apart from Allah and none is worthy of worship part from Allah... :sl:

[shanu]

surah fateha
iyyaka na'budu wayiyakka nastaeen
sorry bt spelluing mistakes
but the above verse means that
You worship only Allah, n u seek help only from Allah"
So i feel its shirk, dua is a form of worship
and Allah created everybody to worship him alone with no partners
Surah Yunus verse 18: These people serve beside Allah those which can neither harm nor benefit them, and say, “These are our ‘shofa’a’ (intercessors) with Allah!” (O Mohammed), tell them, “Do you wish to inform Allah of that thing which He knows not in the heavens or in the earth?” He is absolutely free from, and exalted above the shirk that they commit.


Any dua with full repentance and sinceirty will be accepted by Allah!!
You dont need medians like priests, furthermore people can only make dua to Allah until they are alive. this ppl r dead n they r in barzaakh???


Surah Aaraf verse 190-196: They associate with Allah partners who do not create anything, but are themselves created; who cannot help them nor have the power (even) to help themselves! If you invite them to follow the Right Way, they will not follow you! It will be all the same for you whether you call them or keep silent. Those whom you invoke with Allah are MERE SERVANTS OF ALLAH LIKE YOU! Just invoke them, and if what you say of them be true, they will answer your prayers! Have they feet that they should walk with them? Or have they hands that they should hold with them? Or have they eyes that they should see with them? Or have they ears that they should hear with them? Tell them, O Mohammed, “Call up the partners you have set up, and then all of you sit down together and plot against me, and give me no respite. My Protector and Helper is Allah, Who has sent down this Book (Al Quran), and, it is He who protects the righteous people.”

Even wen Prophet Mohammed pbuh dont have this authority? How can humans like auliya have??Allah needs no medians? y do u suppose christians convert alot?? Becos in islam we ask Allah directly??? Thats y we make dua in the end of prayer? Furthermore? Allah is the ALL KNOWER right?? So whether u tell Allah or u feel shy abt smtg, he wil KNOW!!! so y do u need to invoke the DEAD???????

[shanu]

aYATUL KURSSI
NONE IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH, THE EVER LIVING...
i hope u people remmeber this verse and stay away from all forms of shirk
Prophet mohammed pbuh is the finest example of a muslim. N a walking Quran??? We r told to follow him right? Didnt he ask u nt to worship him? Do u see him praying to daed prophets or invoking help from jibreel who was the median between Allah and him????? Its true he will be the intercessor, but if we wanted to ask him to make dua 4 us, we should have asked wen he was alive, or on the day of judgement? not now?????

When a person is alive, he can pray. Like e.g i go to a sister and say " Sister in islam make dua 4 me" just like that ppl in the past did to the alive prophet???

[waji]

:sl:

In Quran Allah Says in Sura Fatir 35 (Ayaah 18-23)
# Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens. If one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but warn such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
# The blind and the seeing are not alike;
# Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light;
# Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun:
# Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.
# Thou art no other than a warner.(to Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W))

Saying Salam is a Duaa
remember Allah is watching everything
:w:

[رياح_الشمال]

slm
guyz da girl found da anwser

I got my answers
its shirk all ryte!!!

no need 2 talk abt it repeatlly
right?
w slam

[M H Kahn]

According to the ahle sunnah wal jammaah (which sunnipath.com follows) it is not shirk.

Using waseela means that one prays to Allaah using their waseela meaning that they make duaa for you as according to the ahle sunnah wal jamaah these saints are alive in their graves anD can make dua to Allaah.

Some muslims say that these saints are dead that is why they do not believe in waseela.

This is the denial of Allah's declaration in the holy Quran(Surah Ikhlas) that Allah does noty depend on anything of His creation; rather everything else depends on Him. So the faith you foster in your heart is clearly 'shirk' and 'kufr'.

[Abu Zakariya]

There are three permissible (one of which is obligatory and the rest are encouraged) ways of Tawassul.
They are:

1. By Allahs Names and Attributes. For instance, you say: Forgive me, ya Ghafoor (The All-Forgiving)!

2. By faith and Tawheed. For instance, you say (as mentioned in the Qur'an):

“Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger, so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth).” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:53]

3. By righteous deeds. For instance, you say: Oh Allah, by my obedience to you, save me from the Torment of the Hellfire!

Read more!

As for calling on dead awliya and these sort of things, it is clear shirk.
Shaykh Sa'ad al-Humayd says:

So it is not permissible to offer du’aa’ to or call upon anyone except Allaah. But the evidence indicates that it is permissible to ask another person for some things, but that is subject to two conditions :

1- That it should be something possible and the person should be able to do it, such as asking a person to give you money when you are in need of it. But if it is something that he is not able to do, then it is not permissible for you to ask him, such as asking a man to let you be one of the people of Paradise, because he is not able to do that even if he is a righteous and pious man.

2- The person who is asked should be capable, such as one who is alive. It is not permissible to call upon the dead, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you [Faatir 35:13-14]

Read this.


I strongly encourage you, and all of the Muslims, to listen to these series of lectures:

An explanation of Kitab at-Tawheed (the Book of Monotheism), by Yasir Qadhi.

[M H Kahn]

Assalamu alaikum
im in great need 4 ur help?
I learned religion on my own even though i was born muslim. Im of indian origin. And i dont accept some things my parents do as i feel they contradict with the Quran. Since young, when things go missing in the house, my mom asks this "auliya puppa" to help us find this? N after some time we get this. But what i feel upset about it is. isnt this shirk???? Allah is All mighty? I asked my mom who is this? And she says that its those who died in wars of islam and so on? She says that if we make du'a to these auliyas, they will tell God? But they are humans too, and they have passed away? how can they make dua? doesnt this sound like priests in hiduislm where they are the median between seeker and God??? But why ask this people when we ask God directly.?? Allah has said in Surah fateha, to worship him only and to seek help from him? Isnt it wrong to ask humans to make dua as they are duas will be better accepted as they are special? Is there such a thing? Is this even permissable. I read an article in Sunnipath they say we can use them as medians, as long as we dont pray to them???? I dont understand. I need help.

:sl:
You should firmly believe that no person, dead or live--no matter if he was a prophet or a saint-- has any power to do any good or harm to you spiritually. If you believe that any person including a prophet(dead or alive) has any spiritual ability to do any good or harm to you, you will be committing shirk. Allah has always sent prophets to teach people to call hem directly and shake off all mediums. So be aware!!!

[M H Kahn]

Assalamu alaikum
im in great need 4 ur help?
I learned religion on my own even though i was born muslim. Im of indian origin. And i dont accept some things my parents do as i feel they contradict with the Quran. Since young, when things go missing in the house, my mom asks this "auliya puppa" to help us find this? N after some time we get this. But what i feel upset about it is. isnt this shirk???? Allah is All mighty? I asked my mom who is this? And she says that its those who died in wars of islam and so on? She says that if we make du'a to these auliyas, they will tell God? But they are humans too, and they have passed away? how can they make dua? doesnt this sound like priests in hiduislm where they are the median between seeker and God??? But why ask this people when we ask God directly.?? Allah has said in Surah fateha, to worship him only and to seek help from him? Isnt it wrong to ask humans to make dua as they are duas will be better accepted as they are special? Is there such a thing? Is this even permissable. I read an article in Sunnipath they say we can use them as medians, as long as we dont pray to them???? I dont understand. I need help.

:sl:
You should firmly believe that no person, dead or live--no matter if he was a prophet or a saint-- has any power to do any good or harm to you spiritually. If you believe that any person including a prophet(dead or alive) has any spiritual ability to do any good or harm to you, you will be committing shirk.
So be aware!!!

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:
You should firmly believe that no person, dead or live--no matter if he was a prophet or a saint-- has any power to do any good or harm to you spiritually. If you believe that any person including a prophet(dead or alive) has any spiritual ability to do any good or harm to you, you will be committing shirk.
So be aware!!!

Shirk?? Hah

And seek a means (wasila) to Him. [Quran, 5: 35]

Andwasila (a means of approach) in its general indication includes tawassul (intercession) by persons, and through actions.

http://www.masud.co.uk/



The Holy Prophet himself taught his companion to make Dua by his own waseela. Imam tirmizi narrats that:

A blind man said to the Prophet pray that Allah may grant me goodness The Prophet (peace be upon him) said if you want, I can pray for you, or you can be patient and this is better for you. He said master (peace be upon him pray for me. The Prophet (peace be upon him) ordered him to perform wudu well and recite this Dua after offering two rakats of salaah.

"O Allah I ask from you and make a mediator and draw my concentration towards you via your prophet ( peace be upon him) who is the merciful Prophet (peace be upon him ). O Rasoolallah (Peace be upon Him), I turn to my lord ( the most high) regarding this need via you so that my need be fulfilled. Lord (the most high accept His (peace be upon him) intercession for me.
Hazarat Sayyidona uthman bin Hanif says " I swear by God we people had not even got up, but were still talking that they very blind person reached us. His eyesight had become so clear as if he was never blind. (Tirmizi)

[Abu Zakariya]

Read my last post, where I listed the allowed forms of tawassul.

Seeking intercession from a Prophet (or any person for that matter) is only allowed if the person is present. So, you go to a person that is alive and you say to him: Make du'aa for me that Allah will cure me from my sickness.

This is allowed.

To ask the Prophet for this today, thinking that he may help you, although he is in his grave, is shirk.

To ask Allah something using these kind of words: Oh Allah, I ask you by the essence of the Prophet, that you cure me is not allowed. However, it aint shirk.

[Muslim Soldier]

Read my last post, where I listed the allowed forms of tawassul.

Seeking intercession from a Prophet (or any person for that matter) is only allowed if the person is present. So, you go to a person that is alive and you say to him: Make du'aa for me that Allah will cure me from my sickness.

This is allowed.

To ask the Prophet for this today, thinking that he may help you, although he is in his grave, is shirk.

To ask Allah something using these kind of words: Oh Allah, I ask you by the essence of the Prophet, that you cure me is not allowed. However, it aint shirk.

so what you mean to say is that asking thriugh the prophet now is shirk because he is dead?

[M H Kahn]

so what you mean to say is that asking thriugh the prophet now is shirk because he is dead?

:sl:
Asking through any entity is always shirk as ordained in the Quran where Allah says:"Say: He is Allah the One and Only;Allah is the Self-Sufficient (independent of all, while all are dependent on Him); He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable to Him." [112:1-4] Making a supplication to Allah through some human or other entity, live or dead, present or absent, nullifies the declaration of Allah that He is "independent of all, while all are dependent on Him". Therefore, the story narrated by Mr Tirmizi must be rejected as a mere ant-Quranic gossip.

[Muslim Soldier]

Allah says that but he also says, And seek a means (wasila) to Him. [Quran, 5: 35]

[M H Kahn]

Originally Posted by Quran
And seek a means (wasila) to Him. [Quran, 5: 35]

Here the Arabic term "wasila" signifies means of nearness to Allah.The full verse is:"O believers! Fear Allah and seek the means to be closer to Him and make Jihãd (struggle) in His Way so that you may be successful."

[Muslim Soldier]

Narrated by Abu Huraira
Sahih Bukhari 75:317

Allahs apostle said"For every prophet there is one special invocation that will not be rejected with which he appeals to Allah..."

[Abu Zakariya]

Muslim soldier

Specify what you mean by "asking through the Prophet". If you mean that you call out to him and say: "Oh Prophet, help me", then yes, this is shirk.

However, if you say: "Oh Allah, I ask you by the essence of the Prophet", then this isn't shirk, but it isn't allowed.

[M H Kahn]

Muslim soldie

However, if you say: "Oh Allah, I ask you by the essence of the Prophet", then this isn't shirk, but it isn't allowed.

This is innovation, too and every innovation is a misguidance.

[Muslim Soldier]

Narrated by Abu Huraira
Sahih Bukhari 75:317

Allahs apostle said"For every prophet there is one special invocation that will not be rejected with which he appeals to Allah..."

what about this ?
KHAN??

[Abu Zakariya]

Where does that hadith say that seeking intercession from the Prophet (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) after his death is okay?

[M H Kahn]

Shirk?? Hah

The Holy Prophet himself taught his companion to make Dua by his own waseela. Imam tirmizi narrats that:

A blind man said to the Prophet pray that Allah may grant me goodness The Prophet (peace be upon him) said if you want, I can pray for you, or you can be patient and this is better for you. He said master (peace be upon him pray for me. The Prophet (peace be upon him) ordered him to perform wudu well and recite this Dua after offering two rakats of salaah.
"O Allah I ask from you and make a mediator and draw my concentration towards you via your prophet ( peace be upon him) who is the merciful Prophet (peace be upon him ). O Rasoolallah (Peace be upon Him), I turn to my lord ( the most high) regarding this need via you so that my need be fulfilled. Lord (the most high accept His (peace be upon him) intercession for me.
Hazarat Sayyidona uthman bin Hanif says " I swear by God we people had not even got up, but were still talking that they very blind person reached us. His eyesight had become so clear as if he was never blind. (Tirmizi)

We have received the Quran, the words of Allah, for our guidance through the prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The Quran ordains us to obey Allah, obey the prophet and we have the best model in his conduct. But the above story collected by Tirmizi does not come within the religion that the prophet has taught us. Allah sent messengers from time to time so that people call and worship Him alone directly. Tirmizi's story goes against the clear ordainment of the Quran. This is not all; we do not find any example in the conducr of the prophet(pbuh) that he had ever supplicated to Allah through any past prophet or saint or angel etc., rather the prophets' main job was to remove such medium in worship of Allah. Here also, we do not find any justification to consider the story as a religious teaching. There are so many supplications in the Quran--some made to Allah by past prophets and believers and some taught to us by Allah Himself; and we do not find any medium in any of such supplications. Therefore, anybody taking Tirmizi's story as a part of religion is likely to be committing 'shirk' in that the story denies the Quranic ordainmant in Surah Ikhlas that Allah is not dependent on anything in His creation, rather the whole of the creation depends on Him. When one takes a story (as a part of religion) that denies any Quranic ordainment, the person is likely to be committing 'kufr' also. If you believe the story, you virtually disbelieve the Quran and Sunnah. Whereon will you base your religon? On Tirmizi's story or on the Quran and Sunnah. Acceptance of one denies the other. What will you deny? The story or the Quran and Sunnah? The choice is yours !

[M H Kahn]

Narrated by Abu Huraira
Sahih Bukhari 75:317

Allahs apostle said"For every prophet there is one special invocation that will not be rejected with which he appeals to Allah..."
what about this ?
KHAN??

:sl:
No comment .This is not a part of Quranic teaching to "obey Allah and obey the prophet". Allah says:

Guard yourselves against the Day on which one soul shall not avail another - no intercession shall be accepted, no ransom shall be taken and no help shall be given.[2:48]

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah, you have no protector or helper![2:107]

Guard yourselves against the Day when one soul shall not avail another, no ransom shall be taken, no intercession shall profit anyone, and no help shall be given.[2:123]

O believers! Spend out of the sustenance which We have provided for you before the arrival of that Day when there will be no bargaining, friendship or intercession. It is the unbelievers who are wrongdoers.[2:254]

If Allah helps you, then there is none who can overcome you. If He forsakes you, then who else is there other than Him who can help you? Therefore, in Allah let the believers put their trust.[3:160]

[Abu Zakariya]

The hadith found in Tirmidhi is sahih according to al-Albani (although it's authenticity is disputed by others) and the hadith in Bukhari is also sahih, so there's no need to reject them.

However, they don't tell us to invoce others besides Allah, so they can't be used as proof for this.

[shanu]

Muslim soldeir bro
r u trying to say that Allah is not the all mighty and he has not enough power that we have to go through a dead to fulfill our prayers? Allah gave us opprtunity to pray to him and ask him. Which wasila did the Prophet take? U can ask a alive person to make dua, But a dead person??? Can he make dua? He cant even defend himself. Allah has also said that we can only repent till we r alive, what does this tell u, we can only pray and ask 4giveness till ur alive, so tell me, can the dead make dua after he is dead??? Read the Quran well and u will see. The Prophet himself didnt invoke anyone, and he being the role model, shouldnt we follow him. tHE blind man story was when he was aive. Thats fine? The other time u want to ask the Prophet is only in day of judgement :)

[Muslim Soldier]

Muslim soldeir bro
r u trying to say that Allah is not the all mighty and he has not enough power that we have to go through a dead to fulfill our prayers? Allah gave us opprtunity to pray to him and ask him. Which wasila did the Prophet take? U can ask a alive person to make dua, But a dead person??? Can he make dua? He cant even defend himself. Allah has also said that we can only repent till we r alive, what does this tell u, we can only pray and ask 4giveness till ur alive, so tell me, can the dead make dua after he is dead??? Read the Quran well and u will see. The Prophet himself didnt invoke anyone, and he being the role model, shouldnt we follow him. tHE blind man story was when he was aive. Thats fine? The other time u want to ask the Prophet is only in day of judgement :)

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.


I did not ever mention that Allah almighty does not have enough power. When we ask "others" we dont ask them!

We ask them to ask Allah on our behalf.
as for those who are dead, the quran tells us some are not dead.

[thc]

aAssalamu alaikum,

According to the ahle sunnah wal jamaah the saints/walis are alive in their graves!

[united]

If you must have someone to intercede for you then wwho is a better candidate than Rasulullah (s)?
Yet after the Prophet (s) passed away, there are no traditions of Sahabas going to the Raudah to ask him for anything.
If we look back in history, this is exactly how idol worshipping always started.
1) ask the saint to intercede
2) then ask him to give it to you himself
3) it becomes so normal to ask the saint, that people forget the original goal, Allah.

[M H Kahn]

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: 'They are dead. Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.' "

This does not mean that they are alive like the living people on earth. They are absent from the earth through death. To those living on the earth, they are dead. However, they have been kept alive by Allah in the hereafter, but we do not know how and where. If you call a dead person, meaning one who is no more alive in this world, and request him to pray for you to Allah (as we usually request a live person to pray for us when we meet him), I am sure, this is an innovation which must be shunned. If you, on the other hand, believe that any dead person (be he a prophet, a saint or scholar) has any power to influence on Allah, then you are committing shirk.

According to the ahle sunnah wal jamaah the saints/walis are alive in their graves!

This does not mean that you should worship them instead of Allah or along with Allah,Who is all-powerful over all things as declared by Him repeatedly in the Quran. If you believe that any person, dead or alive, has any power to assert influence on Allah, and through the so-called influence, he can do any good or harm to you, you are just setting up many gods beside God. You are going back to pre-Islamic Arabia to shake hands with the 'taguts'.

[syilla]

yup... you're parents are wrong. Better learn from a few muslims/muslimah that is really on the right path.

[extinction]

yup... you're parents are wrong. Better learn from a few muslims/muslimah that is really on the right path.

umm no offence good point but could have been presented in a better way?

[M H Kahn]

Islam consists in two codes: code of faith and code of conduct. Code of faith requires us to believe that Allah is all-powerful over all things and He has not delegated any power to any of His creations including a prophet to do us any good or harm either in this life or in the hereafter. It is an essential part of the code of faith that all prophets (some of whom Allah gave some supernatural powers during their lifetime only) were mere preacher of good news and warnings. As is very evident in the Quran, none of them has been or will be given any power by Allah to do any good or harm to anybody in the hereafter. If you believe in various stories that many people say that in the hereafter none will go to the paradise without the intercession of Muhammed (pbuh) or that there will be other independent intercessors, you will be denying the Quranic ordainment:

002.123
YUSUFALI: Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).

PICKTHAL: And guard (yourselves) against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will compensation be accepted from it, nor will intercession be of use to it; nor will they be helped.

SHAKIR: And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.

[Muslim Soldier]

If you, on the other hand, believe that any dead person (be he a prophet, a saint or scholar) has any power to influence on Allah, then you are committing shirk.

They were good people in this world, die in the way of Allah. They are closer to Allah then us normal people thus they can ask Allah for our sake. Not they do not fulfill our duas. All they do is intercede on our behalf.

This does not mean that you should worship them instead of Allah or along with Allah,Who is all-powerful over all things as declared by Him repeatedly in the Quran. If you believe that any person, dead or alive, has any power to assert influence on Allah, and through the so-called influence, he can do any good or harm to you, you are just setting up many gods beside God. You are going back to pre-Islamic Arabia to shake hands with the 'taguts'.

Why do you like jumping to conclusions?
Who mentioned anything about worshipping them?

[M H Kahn]

Calling any dead person and request him to pray for you to Allah is an innovative practice unknown to the Islam preached by Muhammed (pbuh). Asking Allah to grant a prayer for the sake of some dead or live person (e.g. a prophet, a saint or a scholar etc.) is treating that person as a partner in the realm of Allah.

[Qurratul Ayn]

Assalamu Alaikum

Sister shanu as you have written in the first post that Muslim should seek help from Allah Ta'ala, then pray to Allah Ta'ala The Almighty and Inshallah Ta'ala evrything will be alright.

My Dear Sister shanu, we can only do so much but the only one who can do evrything is Allah Ta'ala, so pray with all your heart and stay on the right path.

Assalamu Alaikum
Shakirah

[Muslim Soldier]

Calling any dead person and request him to pray for you to Allah is an innovative practice unknown to the Islam preached by Muhammed (pbuh). Asking Allah to grant a prayer for the sake of some dead or live person (e.g. a prophet, a saint or a scholar etc.) is treating that person as a partner in the realm of Allah.

Read this properly. Allah says in the quran and I gave you the ayah.
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

So one thing is certain. When one asks through shaheeds (martyrs) these martyrs are not dead!

What remains is explaining wether one is allowed to ask someone living to intercede for his behalf

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Sister Shanu, I URGE you to download these talks Index of /Kitaab At-Tawheed and all the other members aswell, this is a very important kitaab on this issue it will clearfy everything inshAllah. Please listen to it from cover to cover, you will love it inshAllah :brother:

[united]

Read this properly. Allah says in the quran and I gave you the ayah.
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

So one thing is certain. When one asks through shaheeds (martyrs) these martyrs are not dead!

What remains is explaining wether one is allowed to ask someone living to intercede for his behalf

the question is not whether they are living or dead. The question is what is the need to use them as a medium? It is perfectly acceptable to ask Allah to let us enjoy the intercession of Muhammed (s) on the day of Judgement. Why do we need to ask the saints?

[Muslim Soldier]

the question is not whether they are living or dead. The question is what is the need to use them as a medium? It is perfectly acceptable to ask Allah to let us enjoy the intercession of Muhammed (s) on the day of Judgement. Why do we need to ask the saints?

If it is right to ask the prophet when he is living why is it wrong to ask him after his death?

[M H Kahn]

If it is right to ask the prophet when he is living why is it wrong to ask him after his death?

:sl:
Can you talk with a dead person? If you cannot, how can you make him hear you says? Besides, such invocation is not in the conduct of Muhammed(pbuh) or of his companions. This is innovation and every innovator is a doer of shirk in the prophethood.

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:
Can you talk with a dead person? If you cannot, how can you make him hear you says? .

How many times do I prove my point. THEY ARE NOT DEAD!

And regarding how I can make him hear what I say; Allah has given some individuals that power to intercede on their behalf. Allah has given them the power and it is because of Him that they can intercede. These people are the righteous servants of The Merciful Allah.

Therefore how is this shirk?

[waji]

:sl:

:sl:

In Quran Allah Says in Sura Fatir 35 (Ayaah 18-23)
# Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens. If one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but warn such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.
# The blind and the seeing are not alike;
# Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light;
# Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun:
# Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.
# Thou art no other than a warner.(to Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W))

Saying Salam is a Duaa
remember Allah is watching everything
:w:

This ayats i have posted and Muslim Soldier im posting it again for u
if u don't open ur eye i don't mind
but plz
open ur Heart and accept the Truth

May Allah Guide u to the Right Path (Ameen)

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

Sorry wkas I dont see any connection

[waji]

:sl:

what u don't see any connection
don't u see it what Allah said to Muhammad(S.A.W) that his voice can't be heard by the dead people and if Muhammad(S.A.W) 's voice can't be heard by a dead person how can u imagine that ur voice can be heard
and in my opinion it is against the Sunnah even

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:

what u don't see any connection
don't u see it what Allah said to Muhammad(S.A.W) that his voice can't be heard by the dead people and if Muhammad(S.A.W) 's voice can't be heard by a dead person how can u imagine that ur voice can be heard
and in my opinion it is against the Sunnah even

:w:

I did not take time reading your earlier post. Could you please explain where Allah says this?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I did not take time reading your earlier post. Could you please explain where Allah says this?

:sl:

Here:
Surah Fatir
22. Nor are (alike) the living (believers) and the dead (disbelievers). Verily, Allâh makes whom He will hear, but you cannot make hear those who are in graves.

The Prophet cannot hear you, and theoretically if he did, he would not be able to respond. Nor can any in the graves hear you. They are in the life of the Barzakh, and they know not what is going on this Earth.

The Prophet ONLY receives the Salams of the people through angels that give it to him.

:w:

[waji]

:sl:

In Quran Allah Says in Sura Fatir 35 (Ayaah 18-23)
# Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another's burdens. If one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. Thou canst but warn such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination (of all) is to Allah.

Even this particular Ayat gives us explanation to the order later came in the ayats

# The blind and the seeing are not alike;
# Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light;
# Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun:
here Allah is giving the examples

# Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.
# Thou art no other than a warner.(to Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W))

here Allah says it

It is better to learn Quran but more better to understand it and then obey it

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Assalamu alaikum
im in great need 4 ur help?
I dont understand. I need help.

:w:

This is definetly Shirk. By saying that these are intercessors, you are claiming that Allah does not know of you and that these 'auwliya' have to inform Allah of you. See my last post, they cannot hear you.

Dua is an act of worship. Therefore when directed at anyone or anything else it becomes Shirk. Asking someone to make Dua whil they are alive is allowed, but not recommended as it goes againt the perfection of Iman. But asking them when they are dead is definetly shirk.

The general rule of thumb to note in general is: IF you are doing something, and it qualifies as an act of worship i.e. you do to Allah, i.e. Dua, . Then after, if you do it to someone else, it becomes Shirk.

After all, they cannot respond to you. They cannot even hear you. Why then would you call on them? Only Allah hears you.

"And most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute partners (unto Him)." (12:106)

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

According to the ahle sunnah wal jammaah (which sunnipath.com follows) it is not shirk.

When muslims go to these saints graves/dargahs/mazaara/tombs whatever you want to call them some DO shirk by performing sijdah to them or doing acts of ibaadat directly to them.

Using waseela means that one prays to Allaah using their waseela meaning that they make duaa for you as according to the ahle sunnah wal jamaah these saints are alive in their graves anD can make dua to Allaah.

Some muslims say that these saints are dead that is why they do not believe in waseela.

:sl:

Guess who teaches there? I dont want to go into sect discussions, but that is not ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah. That is the soofiyah.

Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller.

Read this:

Nuh Ha Mim Keller

Salaam

I am not a scholar but here are my views

When you are afriad or shy about meeting or asking someone something, you ask someone who is closer to this person to ask on your behalf.
The same way, in times of difficulties, if you ask through the prophet or shaheed since they are closer to Allah, they ask on your behalf hence your hajaat is accepted.

The difference lies there. The Prophet is dead from this life, and so are the shaeed. The person you are meeting is alive.

Example
Allah gave Hazrat Isa the power to cure the sick. Now when people went to him and asked him to cure them, Isa (as) cured them. Is this shirk? No

Again they were alive.

Why?
because Isa cured through the grace of Allah. The same way when your parents ask through the shaheed, they ask the shaheed to ask Allah to grant the wish.

He was alive, the shaheed is dead. He cannot hear you, much less respond. Dua is an act of Worship directed only at Allah. Making Dua to someone else is Shirk as you think he has some super natural powers to respond to you when in fact he doesnt even hear you.

" Say: "Call upon those whom you claim besides Allah: They have no power, not the weight of an atom - in the heavens or on the earth. No share have they therein, nor is any of them a helper to Allah. No intercession can avail with Him, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So much so that, when terror is removed from their hearts, they will say: "That which is true and just; and He is the Most High, Most Great."" (Qur'an 34:22-23)

Confirmation of intercession after Allah permits it and negation of it without His permission. These Verses prove the negation of intercession for all of Allah's creatures on their own initiative, and that granting intercession is the exclusive right of Allah , and therefore, to seek it from other than Allah is an act of Shirk. This includes the worship of idols which their worshipers claim have the power of intercession.

" Say to Allah belongs all intercession. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and to Him you shall all return" (Qur'an 39:44)

:w:

[waji]

:sl:

This whole concept also gives an opinion that
Allah is just like any prime minister or president that u can't reach him or he can't look after everybody

and i don't understand
What is the problem in just Calling Allah for ur help
we Belief that he has all the Powers than why
Why we need anybody else to ask & call Allah on our behalf

:w:

[M H Kahn]

How many times do I prove my point. THEY ARE NOT DEAD!

Sorry ! Though they are alive with Allah, you do not know their whereabouts. They are not able to talk with you; nor are you able to talk with them. None can hear or respond the other.

And regarding how I can make him hear what I say; Allah has given some individuals that power to intercede on their behalf. Allah has given them the power and it is because of Him that they can intercede. These people are the righteous servants of The Merciful Allah. Therefore how is this shirk?

Can you adduce any evidence that hey can intercede? Look at the Quranic verses below:

Guard yourselves against the Day on which one soul shall not avail another - no intercession shall be accepted, no ransom shall be taken and no help shall be given.[2:48]

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah, you have no protector or helper![2:107]

Guard yourselves against the Day when one soul shall not avail another, no ransom shall be taken, no intercession shall profit anyone, and no help shall be given.[2:123]

O believers! Spend out of the sustenance which We have provided for you before the arrival of that Day when there will be no bargaining, friendship or intercession. It is the unbelievers who are wrongdoers.[2:254]

If Allah helps you, then there is none who can overcome you. If He forsakes you, then who else is there other than Him who can help you? Therefore, in Allah let the believers put their trust.[3:160]

Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind ?[Surah Yunus:3]

No intercession availeth with Him save for him whom He permitteth. Yet, when fear is banished from their hearts, they say: What was it that your Lord said ? They say: The Truth. And He is the Sublime, the Great.[Surah Saba:23[

And We sent no messenger before thee but We inspired him, (saying): There is no God save Me (Allah), so worship Me.[Surah Anbia:25]

He knoweth what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede except for him whom He accepteth, and they quake for awe of Him..[Surah Anbia:28]

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Read this properly. Allah says in the quran and I gave you the ayah.
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

So one thing is certain. When one asks through shaheeds (martyrs) these martyrs are not dead!

What remains is explaining wether one is allowed to ask someone living to intercede for his behalf

:sl:

Yes they are alive, for sure the Prophets are. And the Martyrs. But where does it say they are alive in this world? They are in the life of the Barzakh, and they cannot hear you. Therefore to invoke them or ask them to intercede is the essence of Shirk.

How many times do I prove my point. THEY ARE NOT DEAD!

And regarding how I can make him hear what I say; Allah has given some individuals that power to intercede on their behalf. Allah has given them the power and it is because of Him that they can intercede. These people are the righteous servants of The Merciful Allah.

Therefore how is this shirk?

As per forum rules, typing that big is subject to getting a warn.

That power is only granted to them on the Day of Judgement, not now, not here. And Allah will tell them who to intercede for. And intercession will only be granted to the People of Tawheed:

(i) That Allah has permitted the intercession, and (ii) that He is pleased with the one for whom intercession is sought. And Allah is not Pleased with any save the People of Tawheed as is confirmed by the Hadith: "On behalf of whom will your intercession be most pleasing (to Allah), oh, Messenger of Allah?" He replied: Him who says: Laa ilaaha illal-laah, sincerely, from his heart."
Narrated by Bukhari, on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra)_.

:w:

[x Maz x]

MashAllah very well explained
One question : As per forum rules, typing that big is subject to getting a warn. Why have a feature if you cant use it? just out curiosity...please dont pop at me :( WalaykumAsalaam x

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:

Here:
Surah Fatir
22. Nor are (alike) the living (believers) and the dead (disbelievers). Verily, Allâh makes whom He will hear, but you cannot make hear those who are in graves.

Nor are the living equal with the dead . Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear . Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves .

the translation I found was the one above.
Now the question arises, is the prophet in the Grave?
the answer is easly found here.

They are in the life of the Barzakh, and they know not what is going on this Earth.

The prophet is not in the grave therefore he can hear us.

The Prophet cannot hear you, and theoretically if he did, he would not be able to respond. Nor can any in the graves hear you.


The Prophet ONLY receives the Salams of the people through angels that give it to him.

:w:

So the prophet can recive salaams through angles but he can not recive anything else?

[Muslim Soldier]

Prophet Salih (as) speaks with the souls of his people;
“So they slew the she –camel and revolted against their lord’s commandment, and they said: O Salih! Bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles. Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode. Then he turned away from them and said; O my people, I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice”. (Sura A’araf: 77-79).

Pay careful attention to the contents of these three ayats. The first ayat shows that when they were alive they demanded the punishment of Allah (swt).
The second ayat shows that the divine punishment overtook and destroyed each one of them.
The third ayat shows that Prophet Salih (as) spoke to them after their death and destruction and said “I presented you the divine message but you disliked someone giving you advice.”

[Muslim Soldier]

It is reported in Sunan an-Nisai and Sahih Muslim that Ayesha says; The holy prophet taught me the manner of visiting the graves, here is the text of the tradition:
“My Lord commanded me to come to Baqi and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says:- I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which Holy prophet replied : Say peace (salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and Muslims, may God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow we shall join you all very soon”



We can observe from the above hadith that the Holy prophet (saw) is teaching Hazrat Ayesha to send salaam to the dead, asking Mercy for them and talking to them that we shall join you soon.

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:
[B]# Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.


:w:

Allah says...but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.

Therefore we cannot make one buried in the grave to hear but Allah can.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Nor are the living equal with the dead . Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear . Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves .

the translation I found was the one above.

I see no contradiction between the two.

Now the question arises, is the prophet in the Grave?
the answer is easly found here.

The prophet is not in the grave therefore he can hear us.

You are missing the point. If he cannot hear us being in the grave and is in a different life - one that we have no knowledge of- it is sheer ignorance to say he can hear us. You are ascribing to him on of Allah's name of All Hearer. If that is not shirk, i dont know what is.

So the prophet can recive salaams through angles but he can not recive anything else?

Yes as it is in the Hadith.

"Do not make your homes into graves, nor make my grave into a place of celebration. Send your prayers and blessings upon me, for they will be conveyed to me wherever you may be." (Narrated by Abu Dawood with a good sanad, and all of its narrators are trustworthy)

"Do not take my grave as a place of celebration, nor your homes as graves; send prayers and blessings upon me, for your salutations will reach me, wherever you may be." (Narrated by Al-Maqdasi, in Al-Mukhtarah)

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)."
( Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim and others.)

Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said: "When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:


"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good sanad,on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:


"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

Im giving you clear proofs of the forbiddance of those actions. Yet you still have not given me one hadith or one Verse that explicitly states what you claim. The Burden of proof is now upon you.

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

It is reported in Sunan an-Nisai and Sahih Muslim that Ayesha says; The holy prophet taught me the manner of visiting the graves, here is the text of the tradition:
“My Lord commanded me to come to Baqi and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says:- I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which Holy prophet replied : Say peace (salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and Muslims, may God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow we shall join you all very soon”



We can observe from the above hadith that the Holy prophet (saw) is teaching Hazrat Ayesha to send salaam to the dead, asking Mercy for them and talking to them that we shall join you soon.

:sl:

Where does it say make Dua to them? Where does it say ask them for intercession? It doesnt. You have just proved my point.

:w:

[M H Kahn]

:sl:
This whole concept also gives an opinion that Allah is just like any prime minister or president that u can't reach him or he can't look after everybody and i don't understand. What is the problem in just Calling Allah for ur help we Belief that he has all the Powers than why we need anybody else to ask & call Allah on our behalf
:w:

Because they will not abide by the ordainments of Allah. They believe in Allah and at the same time associate partners with Him.

[Muslim Soldier]

Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”


Comments:
The above traditions clearly confirms that our prayers do reach the Holy Prophet (s) when we send our greetings to him, and that is why it is highly recommended to send salawat before and after asking for Dua, so that Dua reaches him with greetings .



recorded by renowed Hufaz & Muhadithun that the Holy prophet (s) has said: “Anyone who visits the house of Allah and then visits my grave is like one who has visited me during my lifetime.” (Ref. Taqi-al Din al Subki in his Shifa-al-saqam).

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

[Muslim Soldier]

Quote:
"Do not make your homes into graves, nor make my grave into a place of celebration. Send your prayers and blessings upon me, for they will be conveyed to me wherever you may be." (Narrated by Abu Dawood with a good sanad, and all of its narrators are trustworthy)

Quote:
"Do not take my grave as a place of celebration, nor your homes as graves; send prayers and blessings upon me, for your salutations will reach me, wherever you may be." (Narrated by Al-Maqdasi, in Al-Mukhtarah)

Do not make them places of celebration. There is a difference between celebration and mourning and asking for dua

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

Exactly. You are confirming what I am saying. Sending Salams, not Dua.

Comments:
The above traditions clearly confirms that our prayers do reach the Holy Prophet (s) when we send our greetings to him, and that is why it is highly recommended to send salawat before and after asking for Dua, so that Dua reaches him with greetings .

The Hadeeth never mentions the word prayers. An example of twisting the hadeeths.

recorded by renowed Hufaz & Muhadithun that the Holy prophet (s) has said: “Anyone who visits the house of Allah and then visits my grave is like one who has visited me during my lifetime.” (Ref. Taqi-al Din al Subki in his Shifa-al-saqam).

Visits the grave. He doesnt say anything about making Dua to him.

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

The Permission is only given on the Day of Judgement and only to those who Allah is pleased with. You have again proven my point.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Do not make them places of celebration. There is a difference between celebration and mourning and asking for dua

:sl:

Youve disregarded the other Hadiths. Please read them.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Salam,
Can I ask, Is it permissable to ask dua in this manner, "Oh Allah, by the love that you have for this person, make my affairs easy for me"...?

In this example, you are not asking the person but Allah to show mercy on you by the love that he has for that person, be he a prophet, awliya etc...

So is that kind of dua permissable?

:sl:

No it isnt. Because it is like a beggar going to a King, and saying, By the love you have for your Son, i ask you for this and this.
His son has no place in the beggars reguest.

Likewise, the status of anyone else has no place in your Dua to Allah.

:w:

[M H Kahn]

Nor are the living equal with the dead . Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear . Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves .

the translation I found was the one above.
Now the question arises, is the prophet in the Grave?
the answer is easly found here.
The prophet is not in the grave therefore he can hear us.
So the prophet can recive salaams through angles but he can not recive anything else?

It is Allah's order to send salam, as He says: " Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect. " 033.056 We have to obey the order. It should not be a believer's concern if the salam reaches the prophet or not, or if reaches, how.

[waji]

:sl:

good point kahn

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

The Permission is only given on the Day of Judgement and only to those who Allah is pleased with. You have again proven my point.

And who are you to decide that?

It is Allah's order to send salam, as He says: " Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect. " 033.056 We have to obey the order. It should not be a believer's concern if the salam reaches the prophet or not, or if reaches, how.

A typical reply for one who does not have an answer

Salam,
Can I ask, Is it permissable to ask dua in this manner, "Oh Allah, by the love that you have for this person, make my affairs easy for me"...?

In this example, you are not asking the person but Allah to show mercy on you by the love that he has for that person, be he a prophet, awliya etc...

So is that kind of dua permissable?

Yes it is permissible.

Well, I never thought of it that way...I will have to do some more investigation, but thanks for that. :happy:

Dont thank him
Conduct your own research then conclude. :)

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:

Youve disregarded the other Hadiths. Please read them.

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)."
( Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim and others.)

What connection does this tradition have?

Quote:
Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said: "When the Messenger of Allah was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

Quote:
Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet say five days before his death:


"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."

Quote:
It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good sanad,on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet himself, the following:


"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

The prophet says not to make them places of worship. dont worship the graves. Nobody toold you to do that.

What I am saying is that you ask the prophet to ask on your behalf. Where does graves come into this?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

And who are you to decide that?

:sl:

I have not said anything of my own and have provided proof. You have yet to provide any. Go back and read all my posts, i wont re post them here again.

The prophet says not to make them places of worship. dont worship the graves. Nobody toold you to do that.

What I am saying is that you ask the prophet to ask on your behalf. Where does graves come into this?

Actually you proved my point of Dua when you posted this:

Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

He says Salams not Dua. You have yet to prove your words.

:w:

[M H Kahn]

:sl:

No it isnt. Because it is like a beggar going to a King, and saying, By the love you have for your Son, i ask you for this and this.
His son has no place in the beggars reguest.

Likewise, the status of anyone else has no place in your Dua to Allah.

:w:

One who prays the above way, he thinks Allah is not sufficient for him. In other words, he disbelieves the Quranic ordainment that Allah is enough for a believer. Disbelieving a Quranic ordainment renders a person to be a disbeliever as per verses 44 of Surah Al-Mayedah:"..........therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers."

This is not all; asking for something to Allah for the sake of somebody is an innovation by misguided humans and this obviously denies the Quranic ordainment that Allah does not depend on anything of His creation, rather the whole creation depends on Him. So, there is elements of 'shirk' and 'kufr' in the aforesaid suppliction that has been composed and spread by some misbelieving humans.

[Muslim Soldier]

Can you please tell me where we stand

Is one allowed to ask for others to ask on his behalf?
If they are dead then is it allowed?

[M H Kahn]

A typical reply for one who does not have an answer

:sl:
This is the only answer a believer has to have. Advancing further will be crossing the limits set by Allah for a believer. Allah says: "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." [002.285]

[Muslim Soldier]

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf (as) asked their father to pray for their forgiveness.

An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (as) were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

“They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners, He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful”.

Explained

When we tell our clergy/prophet to pray for us, we know in our hearts that the clergy/prophet cannot do anything unless Allah (swt) wants for it to happen, but we believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his prayer might get accepted faster. This ideology again takes us back to Allah (swt). One may feel too ashamed of one’s bad actions to turn towards Allah (swt) for forgiveness. To make the forgiveness process a bit quicker he brings with him someone who is dearer to Allah (swt) through his actions and intentions. The above is an example from the Holy Quraan. The brothers of prophet Yusuf (a) could have asked directly from Allah (swt), but as they were so much ashamed of their bad action that needed a Wasila through whom if they ask him to pray to Allah (swt) for forgiveness on their behalf, they will be forgiven, and hence we find they approached a Godly man, a Prophet, Yakub (s) who was their father as well, and asked him, as we read above.
Therefore Quraan gives a lesson to be learnt and followed.

[M H Kahn]

Can you please tell me where we stand

Is one allowed to ask for others to ask on his behalf?

You may ask a live person to seek blessings for you from Allah without making him any payment for the job. But there are Maulanas who are professional supplicators; they take money from you and supplicate for you as if they have received agency from Allah to sell supplications. Buying and selling supplications or other types of ibadah is an act of sin.

If they are dead then is it allowed?

As you cannot talk with the dead, how can you request him or her to supplicate for you?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf (as) asked their father to pray for their forgiveness.

An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (as) were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

“They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners, He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful”.

Explained

When we tell our clergy/prophet to pray for us, we know in our hearts that the clergy/prophet cannot do anything unless Allah (swt) wants for it to happen, but we believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his prayer might get accepted faster. This ideology again takes us back to Allah (swt). One may feel too ashamed of one’s bad actions to turn towards Allah (swt) for forgiveness. To make the forgiveness process a bit quicker he brings with him someone who is dearer to Allah (swt) through his actions and intentions. The above is an example from the Holy Quraan. The brothers of prophet Yusuf (a) could have asked directly from Allah (swt), but as they were so much ashamed of their bad action that needed a Wasila through whom if they ask him to pray to Allah (swt) for forgiveness on their behalf, they will be forgiven, and hence we find they approached a Godly man, a Prophet, Yakub (s) who was their father as well, and asked him, as we read above.
Therefore Quraan gives a lesson to be learnt and followed.

:sl:

Yaqub a.s. was alive at the time. He wasnt dead. Therefore you cannot use that as evidence to prove that you can make a Dua to the Prophet who is dead from this life and this also applies to the saints.

Are you incapable of diffrentiating between asking someone who is alive and someone who is dead?

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

So what you (Ahmed and MH Kahn) are saying is that asking something from a prophet or clergy who is living is allowed but once he dies then it becomes shirk?

[waji]

:sl:

Brothers Scholars say it is alowed to do Hajj or Umra on anyothers behalf who is alive or not but i have also heard if someone is ill and ramadan is on so he can give money to some poor so he or she keeps the fast on his or her behalf but i haven't heard any thing about the saying salat on someone behalf


:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

:sl:

Brothers Scholars say it is alowed to do Hajj or Umra on anyothers behalf who is alive or not but i have also heard if someone is ill and ramadan is on so he can give money to some poor so he or she keeps the fast on his or her behalf but i haven't heard any thing about the saying salat on someone behalf


:w:

true. Because salaah is not a burden and even the physically disabled can perfom it. this is not the case with hajj and fasting.

So what you (Ahmed and MH Kahn) are saying is that asking something from a prophet or clergy who is living is allowed but once he dies then it becomes shirk?

Answer this please:)

[M H Kahn]

:sl:

Brothers Scholars say it is alowed to do Hajj or Umra on anyothers behalf who is alive or not but i have also heard if someone is ill and ramadan is on so he can give money to some poor so he or she keeps the fast on his or her behalf but i haven't heard any thing about the saying salat on someone behalf


:w:

Your knowledge is correct.

[M H Kahn]

So what you (Ahmed and MH Kahn) are saying is that asking something from a prophet or clergy who is living is allowed but once he dies then it becomes shirk?

I did not mean to say that calling the dead to pray for you is 'shirk'. This is an innovation. Those who have left this world, you call them dead or alive, you cannot talk with them. Then how can you request them to pray for you to Allah? This is quite absurd !

My point about shirk was to say like this:" O Allah ! Grant my prayer for the love of( name of a person) or for the sake of( name of a person) ". Such a supplication makes Allah dependent on the person for whose love or sake, you ask Allah to grant your prayer. Here you disobey to accept Allah to be enough for you; and here crops up elements of 'kufr' for disobeying the Quranic order ( that Allah is enough for a believer) and 'shirk' for making Allah dependent on some of His creation. But if you ask Allah to accept your supplication for the sake of a good deed( say you have distributed alms among poor), this is alright.

[Muslim Soldier]

Thank you

I will be back for this later on.
G'Night

[S_87]

So what you (Ahmed and MH Kahn) are saying is that asking something from a prophet or clergy who is living is allowed but once he dies then it becomes shirk?

:sl:

why would you want to ask someone who is not alive?

+ when in graves they cant hear you anyway

but you cannot make hear those who are in graves

[35:22]

so yes it is a form of shirk.

And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor)
2:186

when we ask someone to make dua for us on earth we do not call onto them as would be done when they are in their graves. Astaghfirullah.
when you go to a grave youd 'ask' the person to help you which is shirk is you are supplicating not to Allah but to this grave.

[Muslim Soldier]

will reply later

[*noor]

this sounds like shirk
i read an article the other day about it.
ill look for it and ill post as soon as i find it.

[M H Kahn]

•Allah says:".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the PERFECT RELIGION, but most people do not know." [12:40]

[M H Kahn]

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." [17:36]

[*noor]

Shirk (Polytheism)

Polytheism is a belief in and worship of many deities. Islam considers shirk illogical and totally unacceptable when referring to deity.

If there were in the heavens and the earth other gods beside Allah, there would be confusions in both (heaven and earth) but glory be to Allah, the Lord of the throne; high is He above what they attribute to Him. (Al Anbiya:22)
As the verse above makes very clear, the order of the universe, the ecological balance and the oneness of the Creator is more logical than many gods and indeed several wills and authorities.

In Islam, shirk is the greatest sin. It is the only sin that cannot be forgiven by Allah (s.w.t.) on the Day of Judgment. As said in the Qur'an:

Verily, Allah forgives not that rivals should be set up in the worship with Him. He forgives save that (anything else) to whom He pleases and whoever set up rivals with Allah he has indeed done a tremendous sin. (Al Nisa:48)
Why does shirk occupy such a serious position in Islam?

Several of the main reasons are:

1. Shirk causes the greatest downfall of human status and dignity

Man is the best creation of Allah (s.w.t.), created in 'the highest of forms' (Al Tin:4). He is the khalifatul fir ardh [the vicegerent of Allah (s.w.t.)]. He falls 'to the lowest of the low' (Al Tin:5) when he takes any other creation of Allah (s.w.t.) as deities or gods.

Turn unto Allah (only), not ascribing partners unto Him, for whoso ascribes partners unto Allah, it is as if he had fallen from the sky and the birds had snatched him or the wind had blown him to a far off place. (Al Hajj:31)
2. Shirk is the root of evil and superstition

It is because of shirk that man can believe in the powers of jinn, spirits and particular human beings. Some believe that they can predict future events or cause an event to occur or not to occur. All these can give rise to various forms of evil or ignorant practices.

3. Shirk is tyranny and injustice

An injustice is to withhold someone's rights or treat someone in an unfair manner. In praising and worshipping deities that have no power whatsoever to control his life, man forgets Allah's (s.w.t.) sole right to be worshipped. He ignores his Creator, Who had given him his life and thus is ungrateful and unjust to Allah (s.w.t.).

When Luqman said to his son while advising him "Oh my son! Do not ascribe partners to Allah. Indeed shirk is a great injustice." (Luqman:13)
4. Shirk is the cause of anxiety and fear

Because the mushrik believes in the powers of his various deities, he is always living in constant fear, whereas the only one to be feared is Allah (s.w.t.), as all other things are dependent upon Him.

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe partners unto Allah for which no warrant has been revealed. (Al Nisa:151)
5. Shirk denies rewards in the hereafter

For those who associate partners with Allah (s.w.t.), heaven has been made haram for them.

Indeed they do blaspheme those who say that Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary, but Jesus said "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord". Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him heaven and the fire will be his abode. (Al Maidah:72)
FORMS OF SHIRK

There are two forms of shirk. One is known as shirk akbar and another as shirk asghar.

Shirk akbar is a 'major' act of shirk that cannot be forgiven by Allah (s.w.t.) and whoever dies while committing it will not be able to enter Jannah.

Shirk asghar are 'minor', more unnoticeable acts of shirk that, if done continuously, might take one 'out of' iman.

SHIRK AKBAR

There are two kinds of shirk akbar -

1. Shirk akbar jali (clear)

This type of shirk akbar is to worship a god or several gods besides Allah (s.w.t.). These 'gods' can be in any kind of form, whether cosmic objects, animals, spirits, jinn or human beings such as priests, kings or rulers.

2. Shirk akbar khafi (subtle)

These types of major shirk include:

* when one prays or supplicates to something other than Allah (s.w.t.)

For example: pious ancestors, dead persons, saints etc. Some say that praying or supplicating to them does not necessarily mean worshipping them. However, Islam stresses that praying or supplicating to something or someone is actually worshipping. (Refer to Tafsir Al Mu'minum:60)

* when one takes a lawgiver or lawmaker other than Allah

This includes all kinds of laws governing human life. The right to make something halal or haram, or to judge in human affairs belongs solely to Allah (s.w.t.). This pertains to both 'religious' and 'secular' in life in Islam. According to Islam, obeying someone while disobeying Allah (s.w.t.), even in the realm of mundane life, is like worshipping it.

SHIRK ASGHAR

There are many forms of shirk asghar or minor shirk. The term 'minor' here does not mean that they are not as grave or serious. Rather it means that these forms of shirk are more inconspicuous and unnoticeable compared to the others.

This form of shirk has been described by the Prophet (s.a.w.s.):

Shirk in the Muslim nation is more inconspicuous than the creeping of the black ant on a black rock in the pitch darkness of the night.
Hence, Muslims should shun and guard themselves very carefully from these kinds of shirk because the most 'minor' shirk may incur a heavier penalty than the most serious sin in Islam. Committing or practicing any act of shirk, whether major or minor, can make one's deeds unacceptable by Allah (s.w.t.).

Common forms of shirk asghar:

* to swear with names other than Allah

This was a common practice of the Arabs during the Prophet's (s.a.w.s.) time. They used to swear with the Ka'aba's name, with a pious ancestor's name, or more commonly, with the names of the idols they worshipped, e.g. Al-Latta, Az-Uzza etc. This is shirk because indirectly it gives some recognition of power or glorification to the being named. Says the Prophet (s.a.w.s.):

Whoever swears with other than Allah, he has committed an act of shirk and kufr.
* to adorn something that is believed to be a form of 'protection from misfortune'

Again, this was a common practice of the early Arabs and is to some extent still prevalent today. Wearing certain bangles, necklaces and amulets was believed to be able to weaken jinn or evil spirits or protect oneself from 'al-ain', misfortune etc. From Imam Ahmad, narrated by Umran bin Hussain:

Once the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) saw a man wearing a yellow bangle and asked him, "What is this?" The man answered, "It is al-wahinah (that which weakens)." The Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said, "Take it off! Verily it will not increase you in anything, except sickness and if you die adorning it, no happiness will come to you forever."
This emphasis and serious attention given by the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) shows the need to shun all forms of shirk and close all doors that might lead to it.

to practice, involve or believe in any form of sihir (sorcery) including charms, incantations, astrology etc.
This is stated in a Hadith:

There are three kinds of people that will not enter paradise: the drinker, the one who acknowledges sorcery and the one who breaks silaturahim (kinship). (Ahmad and Ibn Habban)
Astrology is said to be part of this because of the Hadith:

Whoever partakes in one part of astrology (the art of the stars), verily he has partaken in sorcery. (Abu Dawood)
This, however, does not include using the stars in navigation, traveling, etc.

* to believe in 'fortune-telling'

From a Hadith by Muslim, the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) once said:

Whoever approaches a fortune-teller, inquires him/her and acknowledges him/her, his prayers will not be accepted for forty days.
A Hadith by Abu Dawood relates:

Whoever approaches a fortune-teller and acknowledges him/her that person has committed kufr to revelation from Allah.
* to believe in evil omens

This happens when a person intends to do something, but decides not to do it because of experiencing or 'seeing' certain evil signs or omens. Says the Prophet (s.a.w.s.):

"Whoever cancels one's intention to do something because of attiyarah (an evil omen), that one has committed shirk". The companions asked, "What is its kafarah (penalty for repentance)?" The Prophet (s.a.w.s.) answered, saying, "O Allah, there is no good except from You and there is no misfortune except from You. Indeed, there is no god but You". (Imam Ahmad)
* to have riya

This means to perform acts or to show off in order to gain praise or fame, or for worldly purposes.

* to have no redha

This implies being inwardly dissatisfied with an inevitable condition that has been ordained for one by Allah (s.w.t.); to continuously lament that if one had not done such and such a thing, one would have had a better result.

* to be excessive in one's reverence, respect and 'glorification' of prophets, pious leaders, sheikhs or imams

This has brought to the practice of rituals and ceremonies in glorification of these people and the act of beautifying, building upon, lighting up and even worshipping their graves.

* to use ambiguous words that might involve shirk

This includes phrases like 'In the name of Allah and the name of so and so' (e.g. a leader), or 'if it was not for so and so', or to use a name that is exclusively Allah's (s.w.t.) in naming something or even to curse Allah's creation.

Belief in monotheism and purification of one's servitude to Allah (s.w.t.) can be achieved by:

* not worshipping anything or anyone other than Allah (s.w.t.) nor glorifying something or someone as one glorifies Allah (s.w.t.)

All that is worshipped and glorified other than Allah (s.w.t.) should be 'dethroned'. From the Qur'an:

That we do not worship other than Allah and we do not associate Him with any other and we do not make others as gods beside Allah. (Al Imraan:64)
* not taking anything besides Allah (s.w.t.) as one's protector and benefactor and loving it as one should love Allah (s.w.t.)

And amongst man there are those who worship others beside Allah and they love them as they should love Allah. (Al Baqara:165)

The early Arabs, for example, had loved and revered their idols and their leaders and had felt both fear and awe towards them. This kind of love and glorification should be given only to Allah (s.w.t.).

* not taking a lawgiver besides Allah (s.w.t.) nor giving obedience to any other as one obeys Allah (s.w.t.)

Verily, the decider for all human affairs should be Allah (s.w.t.). he alone has the best knowledge about His creation; has the deepest love for them and has full knowledge of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

The Qur'an has stated that whoever judges with other than Allah (s.w.t.) and His Prophet (s.a.w.s.) has actually fallen out of Iman into obedience to shaytan. (See Al Nisa:60-61)

We must think and realize that there are many traps in our society which could lead us to all forms of shirk.

As Muslims, we must also be careful not to follow the ways of the non-believers.

We must lead our lives as true Muslims, following Islam as correctly as we can, being conscious of these traps of shirk that the world invites us to.

REFERENCE:

Yusof Qardawi The Meaning of Tawheed (Malay translation by Pustaka Salam) 1987
Shirk (Polytheism)

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

So what you (Ahmed and MH Kahn) are saying is that asking something from a prophet or clergy who is living is allowed but once he dies then it becomes shirk?

:sl:

It is allowed to ask anyone to make Dua for you while they are alive. It is Shirk when they are dead.

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

So from your beliefs it is right to ask someone who is livingbut wrong to ask someone who is dead.

If I show you proof from hadiths will you abolish this belief?

[Khaldun]

:sl:

A person who cant help himself in the grave even and is depending on the Mercy of Allah, tell me how can he help you then?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

So from your beliefs it is right to ask someone who is livingbut wrong to ask someone who is dead.

If I show you proof from hadiths will you abolish this belief?

:sl:

Please show. Ive been asking you that from the time i posted here.

:w:

[M H Kahn]

:sl:
A person who can't help himself in the grave even and is depending on the Mercy of Allah, tell me how can he help you then?

:sl:
Is there any one to refute it?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

So from your beliefs it is right to ask someone who is livingbut wrong to ask someone who is dead.

If I show you proof from hadiths will you abolish this belief?

:sl:

Im still waiting for this hadith.

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

In Sura Al-Baqarah 2:154
“And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive”


Even in Sura Ale-Imran 3:169 conveys the similar message as follows,
“And reckon not those who are killed in Allah’s way as dead; nay, they are alive ……......”



These Verses in clear terms says that those slain in the way of Allah (swt) are not dead but alive. And they enjoy special blessings from Allah (swt). Hence when we address them they can hear us as they are alive.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````
Prophet Salih (as) speaks with the souls of his people;
“So they slew the she –camel and revolted against their lord’s commandment, and they said: O Salih! Bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles. Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode. Then he turned away from them and said; O my people, I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice”. (Sura A’araf: 77-79).

The first ayat shows that when they were alive they demanded the punishment of Allah (swt).
The second ayat shows that the divine punishment overtook and destroyed each one of them.
The third ayat shows that Prophet Salih (as) spoke to them after their death and destruction and said “I presented you the divine message but you disliked someone giving you advice.”

So, if these peole can not hear, why did Prophet Salih say so?

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````
It is reported in Sunan an-Nisai and Sahih Muslim that Ayesha says; The holy prophet taught me the manner of visiting the graves, here is the text of the tradition:
“My Lord commanded me to come to Baqi and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says:- I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which Holy prophet replied : Say peace (salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and Muslims, may God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow we shall join you all very soon”



We can observe from the above hadith that the Holy prophet (saw) is teaching Hazrat Ayesha to send salaam to the dead, asking Mercy for them and talking to them that we shall join you soon.

now if these people did not have ability to hear, would Ayesha have said so?
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````
Abu Dawood in his ‘Sunan’ narrates from the holy prophet (saw) who said: “There is no one who sends greetings upon me but that Allah makes his greetings reach me and I answer his greetings”

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

This tradition was posted by Ahmed if I am not mistake. So, if the prophet can recive salaams, be it by angels or not why cant he receive duas as well?

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```


If you want to reply please do so with solid evidence!

[IceQueen~]

:sl:
Is there any one to refute it?

in bukhari hadeeth hadhrat umar asked 'abbas (ra) to pray for rain for them and hadhrat umar even said that 'oh Allah when ur prophet was alive we used to ask him to pray for us, and now (after (saw)'s death) we ask the uncle of the prophet to pray for us (abbas was alive-there)

[Muslim Soldier]

in bukhari hadeeth hadhrat umar asked 'abbas (ra) to pray for rain for them and hadhrat umar even said that 'oh Allah when ur prophet was alive we used to ask him to pray for us, and now (after (saw)'s death) we ask the uncle of the prophet to pray for us (abbas was alive-there)

Ibn Hajar Makki writes in ‘Sawaiq Muhriqa’ that in 17th year of Hijrah, people prayed for rain but to no effect. Caliph Umar said that he would pray for the rain the next day through the means of approach to Allah. Next morning he went to Abbas, the uncle of the prophet and said, come out so that we may invoke Allah through you for rain”

Abbas asked Umar to sit for sometime so that the Means of approach to Allah could be provided. The Banu Haslim (Ahlulbayt) were then informed. Abbas came out with Ali (ra), Hassan (ra) and Hussein (ra) .Other Bani Hashim where behind them. Abbas asked Umar that no one else to be added to their group. Then they went to the place of prayers where Abbas raised his hands for prayers and said;
“O Allah you created us, and you know about our Actions, O Allah as you were kind to us in the beginning, so be kind to us in the end”. Jabir says that their prayer had not ended when clouds appeared and it began to rain before they could reach their homes, they were drenched.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

If you want to reply please do so with solid evidence!

:sl:

Your just restating all the points in this thread. All prove nothing of your point. I suggest you go back and read my posts and few other members posts again because obviously youve disregarded our posts and are continuing to blindly follow. Rathar, you need to provide "solid evidence".

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

well i was presenting all the evidence in one place. As you know, in the court of law after all the vidence has been provided, the lawyer presents it all to the jury.

I was doing the same thing. From my post one can claerly see that the dead are not "dead"

[M H Kahn]

in bukhari hadeeth hadhrat umar asked 'abbas (ra) to pray for rain for them and hadhrat umar even said that 'oh Allah when ur prophet was alive we used to ask him to pray for us, and now (after (saw)'s death) we ask the uncle of the prophet to pray for us (abbas was alive-there)

Here a live man requested another live men to pray to Allah. There's nothing wrong in it; and we do this every day. We ask our relatives and friends, when we meet them, to ask Allah for our welfare.

[M H Kahn]

well i was presenting all the evidence in one place. As you know, in the court of law after all the vidence has been provided, the lawyer presents it all to the jury.

I was doing the same thing. From my post one can claerly see that the dead are not "dead"

We do not disagree with you that those who are killed in the way of God are alive with Allah. But you do not know their whereabnouts and you are unable to talk with them. So it is absurd to request them to pray for you, as you are unable to make them hear you and they are unable to respond to your request. Besides, this sort of work is innovation in Islam; not the following of the prophet.

[S_87]

:sl:

muslim soldier your evidence does not show the permissibility of praying to graves

[M H Kahn]

Shaykh Mansur Ali Nasif, Al Taj al-jamil li al – ‘usul fi Ahadith al-Rasul’ reports that Holy prophet said: “…send greetings upon me, for your greetings reaches me…”

Allah has ordained for mankind to send so. It should not be our concern whether it reches to anywhere other than Allah. In sending greetings, we obey Allah.

[M H Kahn]

:sl:

muslim soldier your evidence does not show the permissibility of praying to graves

You're right !

[Muslim Soldier]

look. I provided concrete evidence from hadith. You do so too in one post neatly.

[united]

When Adam (as) was sent down to earth, he repented for 40 years. At the end of 40 years he made dua to the effect of "Oh Allah, forgive me by the love you havefor Muhammed (saw)". Allah, in His infinite wisdom, asked him why he made such a request. Adam (as) replied that he had seen the kalimah written on the doors of Jannah. And for Allah to put Muhammed (saw)'s name there must mean that Allah had a great love for Muhammed (saw).
This was the dua that caused Allah to forgive Adam (as).
note 1) He did not ask Rasulullah (saw) directly. (whateverform he was in).
note 2) The words of the dua "Fot the love of Muhammed (saw)..."

[S_87]

When Adam (as) was sent down to earth, he repented for 40 years. At the end of 40 years he made dua to the effect of "Oh Allah, forgive me by the love you havefor Muhammed (saw)". Allah, in His infinite wisdom, asked him why he made such a request. Adam (as) replied that he had seen the kalimah written on the doors of Jannah. And for Allah to put Muhammed (saw)'s name there must mean that Allah had a great love for Muhammed (saw).
This was the dua that caused Allah to forgive Adam (as).
note 1) He did not ask Rasulullah (saw) directly. (whateverform he was in).
note 2) The words of the dua "Fot the love of Muhammed (saw)..."

:Sl:

there is a difference of opinion regarding this hadith but i think its been classed mawdoo

muslim soldier

Say (O Muhammad): ‘Shall we invoke others besides Allaah (false deities), that can do us neither good nor harm, and shall we turn back on our heels after Allaah has guided us (to true Monotheism)?
6:71

And invoke not besides Allaah any such that will neither profit you nor harm you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (wrongdoers
10:106

And who is more astray than one who calls on (invokes) besides Allaah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them
46:5

And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything).

O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allaah. But Allaah is Rich (Free of all needs), Worthy of all praise

35:13-15

[united]

There is a difference between asking people, and asking Allah. Asking the auliya for things is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with asking Allah.

[M H Kahn]

When Adam (as) was sent down to earth, he repented for 40 years. At the end of 40 years he made dua to the effect of "Oh Allah, forgive me by the love you havefor Muhammed (saw)". Allah, in His infinite wisdom, asked him why he made such a request. Adam (as) replied that he had seen the kalimah written on the doors of Jannah. And for Allah to put Muhammed (saw)'s name there must mean that Allah had a great love for Muhammed (saw).
This was the dua that caused Allah to forgive Adam (as).
note 1) He did not ask Rasulullah (saw) directly. (whateverform he was in).
note 2) The words of the dua "Fot the love of Muhammed (saw)..."

Only a disbeliever may believe this false story invented and spread by enemies of Allah, as Allah says about the Adam's forgiveness:"But Shaitãn tempted them with the tree to disobey Allah’s commandment and caused them to be expelled from Paradise, and We said: "Get out from here, some of you being enemies to others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and provisions for a specified period. Then Adam received appropriate words from his Rabb and repented, and Allah accepted his repentance. Surely He is the Acceptor of Repentance, the Merciful.[2;36-37] Allah again says:"Thus he cunningly seduced them, and when they ate from the tree, their shame became visible to them and they began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden. Then their Rabb called out to them: “Did I not forbid you to approach that tree, and did not I warn you that Shaitãn was your open enemy?” They both replied: “Our Rabb! We have wronged our souls. If You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers.”[7:22-23]

"The words of the dua "Fot the love of Muhammed (saw)" denotes a very clear meaning that Muhammed (pbuh) is a partner in Allah's realm and Allah cannot act independently without Muhammed's advice. A man fostering such a belief is simultaneously a 'kfir' and 'mushrik' for his denial of Allah's attribute that He is all-powerful over all things as well as for associating Muhammed(pbuh) as a partner in Allah's decision making process.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

look. I provided concrete evidence from hadith. You do so too in one post neatly.

:sl:

Ok, for the last time I will post whatever I had posted before which you have obviously disregarded.

Regarding Intercession:

Allah says:

" And warn by it, those who fear to be gathered to their Lord: Besides Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: That they may become pious, God-fearing" (Qur'an 6:51)

Allah , Most High commands His Prophet, Muhammad, (may Peace Be Upon Him) in this verse to inform and strike fear into those who are convinced of the truth of the Day of Resurrection: That they will stand before their Lord on that Day, and that they will find no helper, nor intercessor to intercede between them and Allah's punishment, that hopefully, they will fulfill the commands of Allah and abstain from that which He has forbidden.

--------------------

Allah , says:

" Say to Allah belongs all intercession. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and to Him you shall all return" (Qur'an 39:44)

Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, commands His Prophet, Muhammad (may Peace Be Upon Him) in this verse to inform the people, whatever their philosophy or creed, that the right to grant every manner of intercession is purely and solely for Allah , the Almighty, the All-powerful, and none may contend with Him in it, nor can any intercede except by His permission; then He affirms that He is the One and Only Disposer of affairs in the heavens and the earth and all that they contain and that there is no escaping from the Day when all mankind will be returned to Allah ; then those who took others as intercessors will know the futility of their deeds.

----------------------------

Regarding Taking Graves of Righteous Men as Places of Worship To Allah:

It is authentically reported on the authority of `Aa`ishah that:

Um Salamah (May Allah be pleased with them both) told the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) about a church she had seen in Abyssinia in which there were pictures. The Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) said: "Those people, when a righteous member of their group or a pious slave (of Allah swt ) dies, they build a mosque over his grave and make images therein; by so doing, they combine two evils: (i) The evil of the graves and (ii) the evil of images."
(Narrated by Bukhari)

-----------------------------

Al-Bukhari and Muslim report that `Aa`ishah said: "When the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) was close to death, he covered his face with a cloth, and then when it became difficult for him to breathe, he uncovered his face and said:

"May Allah curse the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship - do not imitate them."

And, (added `Aa`ishah,) "if it had not been for this, his grave might have been raised above ground, but it was feared that it would be taken as a place of worship."

---------------------------------

Muslim narrates on the authority of Jundub Ibn `Abdillah (ra) that he said: "I heard the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) say five days before his death:

"Verily, I bear witness before Allah that I have taken none of you as my Khaleel,2 for truly, Allah has taken me as His Khaleel, just as He took Ibraheem (as ) as a Khaleel. If I were to take any man from my Ummah as a khaleel, it would be Abu Bakr. Your predecessors used to take their Prophets' graves as places of worship, so do not make graves into places of worship for I have forbidden you to do this."


--------------------------------------

It is narrated by Ahmad, with a good sanad, on the authority of Ibn Mas'ood (ra), in a narration traced back to the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) himself, the following:

"Verily, the most wicked of people are those who, when the Hour overtakes them, are still alive, and those who take graves as places of worship." (Also Narrated by Abu Hatim in his Saheeh)

-------------------------------------

It is reported on the authority of `Ali Ibn Al-Husain that he saw a man approaching a small niche before the grave of the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) and he went into the niche and began to supplicate. So he (`Ali) prevented the man from doing so, saying: "Shall I not tell you a Hadith (of the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) which I heard from my father, who in turn, heard it from my grandfather [i.e. `Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra)], who reported from Allah's Messenger (may Peace Be Upon Him) that he said:

"Do not take my grave as a place of celebration, nor your homes as graves; send prayers and blessings upon me, for your salutations will reach me, wherever you may be." (Narrated by Al-Maqdasi, in Al-Mukhtarah)

---------------------------------

Side Note:

Setting out on a journey with the express intent of visiting the grave of the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) is prohibited, because of his words:

"Do not saddle up your riding beasts, except to three mosques: "The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), this my mosque and Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem)." In light of this, it is clear that whoever undertook a journey in order to pray in the Prophet's Mosque, is not guilty of any sin, while whoever did so in order to worship at the grave has disobeyed the Prophet." ( Narrated by Bukhari, Muslim and others.)

---------------------------------

It is narrated by Muslim, on the authority of Thawban (ra) that the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) said:

"Verily, Allah folded the earth for me, so much so that I saw its East and its West: The kingdom of my Ummah will reach as far as the earth was folded for me. The two treasures, both the red and the white were given to me. I prayed to my Rabb that He may not destroy my Ummah by a widespread drought and not give sovereignty over them to an enemy who annihilates them in large numbers except from among themselves. And then verily, my Rabb said: "Oh, Muhammad (may Peace Be Upon Him)! When I issue a decree, it is not withdrawn: I have promised your Ummah that I will not destroy it by a widespread drought and I shall not give sovereignty of them to an enemy who exterminates them in large numbers, even if they are stormed from all sides of the earth except from among themselves. Only a portion of them will destroy another portion and a portion will take another portion prisoner." This was also narrated by Al-Barqaani, who added: "I fear for my Ummah those leaders who will send them astray: When the sword is used among my people, it will not be withdrawn from them until the Day of Resurrection and the Hour will not come until a tribe from among my Ummah attach themselves to the polytheists and numbers of my people worship idols; and there will be among my Ummah thirty liars, all of them claiming that he is a prophet, though I am the Seal of the Prophets - none will come after me. But some of my Ummah will continue to hold to the truth and they will be victorious and they will not be harmed by those who oppose them until Allah's Command comes."

------------------------------------

Imam Malik has reported in his book, Al-Muwatta`, that the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) said:

"Oh, Allah! Do not let my grave become an idol that is worshiped: Allah's Wrath is immense against those peoples who turned the graves of their Prophets into mosques."

------------------------------------

Regarding Exxageration of Righteous Men - The Basis of Shirk -

It is reported on the authority of `Umar (ra) that the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) said:

"Do not extoll me as the Christians extolled the son of Maryam (as ); I am no more than a slave (of Allah) and so (instead), say: Allah's Slave and His Messenger."
(Narrated by Bukhari)

------------------------------

The Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) said:

"Beware of exaggerated praise, for it was only this which led those before you to destruction." (Narrated by Ahmad, An-Nassa'I and Ibn Majah.)

---------------------------------

Regarding Calling On Others Beside Allah :

Allah , says:

" Nor call on any besides Allah, such can neither profit you, nor hurt you. If you do, then you will surely be one of the zalimun" (Qur'an 10:106)

In this verse, Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, forbids His Prophet, Muhammad (may Peace Be Upon Him) - and the forbiddance applies to the whole Ummah - from performing acts of worship, in particular supplication for any other besides Allah , because none beside Him possesses power to benefit or harm. Then Allah informs His Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) that should he do so, he would be one of the Zalimun.

-----------------------------------

Allah (swt), says:

" If Allah does not touch you with hurt, there is none can remove it but He: If He designs some benefit for you, there is none can keep back His Favour: He causes it to reach whomsoever of His slaves He wills, and He is the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful" (Qur'an10:107)

In this verse, Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, informs His Prophet, Muhammad (may Peace Be Upon Him) that both good and evil are determined by Allah , the Almighty, the All-powerful, and that none of His creatures - whoever he may be - has the power to lift harm or prevent benefit coming to anyone; and that all power of disposal is in Allah's Hands. He forbids whom He wills, in His Wisdom, and He gives to whom He wills from His Bounty, and He is Oft-forgiving to whomsoever turns in repentance to Him; even to the one who has committed shirk, He is Full of Mercy

----------------------------------------

Allah , Most High says:

" And who is more astray than one who calls upon other than Allah, such as will not answer him until the Day of Resurrection, and who are [even] unaware of their calls to them. And when mankind are gathered [on the Day of Resurrection], they [the false deities] will become enemies to them and will deny their worshipping" (Qur'an 46:5-6)

------------------------------------

Allah , says:

" Is not He [better than your gods] Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls Him, and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth [generation after generation], is there any deity with Allah? Little it is that you bear in mind [the warning]" (Qur'an 27:62)

This verse proves that none can answer the oppressed or the distressed except Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, because Du'aa` is a form of worship and dedicating an act of worship to other than Allah is Shirk.

------------------------------------------

At-Tabarani reports that:

"In the time of the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) there was a hypocrite2 who used to harm the Believers, and some of them said: "Come, let us seek aid from the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) against this hypocrite." But the Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) said: "Aid must not be sought from me; aid must only be sought from Allah ."

-----------------------------


Here is the evidence once more. Please Read it over and realize that these are not my words, but the Words of Allah and the Words of His Messenger (SAW). And remember this ayat:

[Hujurat 49:1] O People who Believe! Do not advance ahead of Allah and His Noble Messenger, and fear Allah; indeed Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing.

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

:Sl:

there is a difference of opinion regarding this hadith but i think its been classed mawdoo

muslim soldier

Say (O Muhammad): ‘Shall we invoke others besides Allaah (false deities), that can do us neither good nor harm, and shall we turn back on our heels after Allaah has guided us (to true Monotheism)?
6:71

And invoke not besides Allaah any such that will neither profit you nor harm you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (wrongdoers
10:106

And who is more astray than one who calls on (invokes) besides Allaah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them
46:5

And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything).

O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allaah. But Allaah is Rich (Free of all needs), Worthy of all praise

35:13-15

very nice thank you
but, if there was to be no intercession, then why would Allah say

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬

Now from your verses it shows that intercession is not allowed. But, earler on through discussion I came to the conlusion thanks to Ahmed and Khan that intercession is allowed except asking throgh the dead. Therfore you criticize each other.

If Ahmed or Khan have anything to say regarding this please do so.

[Muslim Soldier]

Ahmed I am not quoting your post coz its too long but I can see that it mainly says DONT ASK anyone but Allah. However, earler you had come to the conclusion that intercession was allowed unless the person was dead. Therafter asking him was haraam. Please clerify

[M H Kahn]

very nice thank you
but, if there was to be no intercession, then why would Allah say

If Ahmed or Khan have anything to say regarding this please do so.

If I ask you that you tell Allah for my welfare, it is quite possible for you to tell Allah, but neither I nor you know if Allah will grant your prayer. This is not intercession; this is simply a supplication wherein you seek Allah's blessings for yourself as well as for others.

But if you die or killed for the cause of Allah, then I shall not be able to talk with you or make you hear what I say. So, how can I ask you that you pray for me to Allah ? This is simply absurd and tantamount to worshipping the dead.

As regards the discussion on intercession in the Quran, it is about the hereafter. We find some verses that say that with death ceases one's capacity to do any good or harm to himself or to others, and there will be none to help him in the hereafter except Allah Himself.Look at the following verses that say that there is no intercession by any other than Allah Himself:

Guard yourselves against the Day on which one soul shall not avail another - no intercession shall be accepted, no ransom shall be taken and no help shall be given.[2:48]
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah, you have no protector or helper![2:107]
Guard yourselves against the Day when one soul shall not avail another, no ransom shall be taken, no intercession shall profit anyone, and no help shall be given.[2:123]
O believers! Spend out of the sustenance which We have provided for you before the arrival of that Day when there will be no bargaining, friendship or intercession. It is the unbelievers who are wrongdoers.[2:254]
If Allah helps you, then there is none who can overcome you. If He forsakes you, then who else is there other than Him who can help you? Therefore, in Allah let the believers put their trust.[3:160]

Then we find some other verses that idicate that Allah may allow some angels or prophets to intercede for some specific persons. This confirms that the intercession lies with Allah and none but Allah can do any good or harm to us.These verses are:

Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind ?[Surah Yunus:3]
No intercession availeth with Him save for him whom He permitteth. Yet, when fear is banished from their hearts, they say: What was it that your Lord said ? They say: The Truth. And He is the Sublime, the Great.[Surah Saba:23]

All verses confirm that we have no friend, protector or intercessor but Allah Himself in the hereafter. I think when I have no friend or protector but Allah in the hereafter, then why should I bother if Allah will place me in the heaven directly by His grace or he will tell some angel or prophet to intercede for me and then He will let me get into the paradise. As all power lies with Allah and He has not delegated any intercessory power to any, a believer should concentrate on the worship of Allah alone and never think of any intercession in the hereafter. I feel it is a forbidden thinking that may pollute one's faith and lead him to commit shirk.

[S_87]

very nice thank you
but, if there was to be no intercession, then why would Allah say

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.
.

:sl:

so are you trying to say for intercession we have to ask the person or we have to ask Allah?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

very nice thank you
but, if there was to be no intercession, then why would Allah say

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

Notice the words but and except in the above mentioned verses. These verses do not condemn the presence of an intercessor; they just put a condition for the fact of intercession. So far we are establishing the fact that intercession is not something condemned in Islam, rather it is something accepted highly by Islam.

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬&#172 ;&# 172;¬¬¬¬¬¬¬&#17 2;¬¬¬¬¬¬¬&#172 ; ¬¬¬¬

Now from your verses it shows that intercession is not allowed. But, earler on through discussion I came to the conlusion thanks to Ahmed and Khan that intercession is allowed except asking throgh the dead. Therfore you criticize each other.

If Ahmed or Khan have anything to say regarding this please do so.

:sl:

Again the same point. The condition is this:

Intercession is only going to happen on the Day of Judgement. Allah will tell the person who will be able to intercede who he can intercede for. You may ask, what then is the point of intercession? The point of intercession is to raise the status of the person doing intercession.

Evidence points that intercession will only be granted on two conditions:
(i) That Allah has permitted the intercession, and
(ii) that He is pleased with the one for whom intercession is sought. And Allah is not Pleased with any save the People of Tawheed as is confirmed by the Hadith: "On behalf of whom will your intercession be most pleasing (to Allah), oh, Messenger of Allah?" He replied: Him who says: Laa ilaaha illal-laah, sincerely, from his heart."(Narrated by Bukhari, on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra))

Calling on others beside Allah as a means to get to Allah goes against Tawheed of Uluhiyyah. That is another topic of itself. Feel free to open another thread to discuss that if you wish.

The verse negates any intercession by Allah's creatures of their own volition, and therefore seeking such intercession from other than Allah , is an act of major Shirk including idols which their worshipers claim can intercede with Allah on their behalf.

Point 2- Refuted by Common Sense

First of all, what is intercession? Lets give a practical example:

You need a job. Your freind knows the CEO of the company and he will talk to him to get you a job. Thus your freind becomes the Intercessor. Now what does this imply?

1) The CEO does not know anything about you.

2) He must be informed of you by someone else.

Now lets put this into perspective to our topic.

You want Allah to forgive you, you want him to grant you a place in Jannah. The "Righteous" man in the grave and the "Auwliya" are your freind. They will speak to Allah about you and ask for forgiveness for you. What does this Imply?

1) Allah does not know anything about you. This goes against many of Allah's names such as All-Hearer, Al-Seer, and All-Knower.

2) He must be informed by someone about you. Again it goes against Allah's names.

So by calling unto someone else besides Allah you are infact saying that Allah does not hear you nor does he know of you but only can 'learn' about you through the 'auwliya'. You are rejecting many of Allah's names an attributes and such are

Does it all make sense now?

---------------------------------

Ahmed I am not quoting your post coz its too long but I can see that it mainly says DONT ASK anyone but Allah. However, earler you had come to the conclusion that intercession was allowed unless the person was dead. Therafter asking him was haraam. Please clerify

That is not intercession...to ask someone who is alive. It seems you dont know what intercession is? You are asking him to make Dua to Allah. There isnt any supernatural thing involved. When you are asking someone who is dead, you are saying that he hears you whereas he doesnt even know you exist. You are exagerating his status.

However, even though it is allowed to ask a live person, it is discouraged because it goes against the perfection of Tawheed and Iman.

:w:

[Khaldun]

:sl:

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call?[Surah Ahqaf Ayah 5]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Surah Zumar Ayah 3]

[M H Kahn]

:sl:

so are you trying to say for intercession we have to ask the person or we have to ask Allah?

You have to entirely forget the matter of intercession and worship Allah alone in the ways shown by the prophet Muhammed (pbuh), as you are not ordered by Allah or his prophet to seek any intercession. Allah knows the best how He will help you in the hereafter. So trust in Allah alone.

[Muslim Soldier]

Guard yourselves against the Day on which one soul shall not avail another - no intercession shall be accepted, no ransom shall be taken and no help shall be given.[2:48]

Intercession is only going to happen on the Day of Judgement. Allah will tell the person who will be able to intercede who he can intercede for. You may ask, what then is the point of intercession? The point of intercession is to raise the status of the person doing intercession.

Those two quotes contradict each other. One says there is no intercession while the other says ther will be in the hear after. Whic is which?

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

The Prophet said, "Some people will be taken out of the Fire through the intercession of Muhammad they will enter Paradise and will be called Al-Jahannamiyin (the Hell Fire people)."

So which is true??

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah, you have no protector or helper![2:107]

Yes besides him one has no protector or helper. But it is thorugh others granted permission by Allah that help and protection are achived.

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

I have said many times that there are some chosen people. The but and the except prove this.

Now if you have to say anything, do so regarding this ayat. What do you have to say about it?

The verse negates any intercession by Allah's creatures of their own volition, and therefore seeking such intercession from other than Allah , is an act of major Shirk including idols which their worshipers claim can intercede with Allah on their behalf.

Haha.
1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.
2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them. now don tell me that using a telephone to contact someone is shirk.;D

believers! Spend out of the sustenance which We have provided for you before the arrival of that Day when there will be no bargaining, friendship or intercession. It is the unbelievers who are wrongdoers.[2:254]

You posted as such but the traditions say

Narrated Anas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah will gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection and they will say, 'Let us request someone to intercede for us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the one whom Allah created with His Own Hands, and breathed in you of His soul, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you; so please intercede for us with our Lord.' Adam will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, and will remember his sin, and will say, 'Go to Noah, the first Apostle sent by Allah' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking', and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Abraham whom Allah took as a Khalil. They will go to him (and request similarly). He will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Moses to whom Allah spoke directly.' They will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Jesus.' They will go to him, and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad as Allah has forgiven his past and future sins.' They will come to me and I will ask my Lord's permission, and when I see Him, I will fall down in prostration to Him, and He will leave me in that state as long as (He) Allah will, and then I will be addressed. 'Raise up your head (O Muhammad)! Ask, and your request will be granted, and say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.' Then I will raise my head, and I will glorify and praise my Lord with a saying(i.e. invocation) He will teach me, and then I will intercede, Allah will fix a limit for me (i.e., certain type of people for whom I may intercede), and I will take them out of the (Hell) Fire and let them enter Paradise. Then I will come back (to Allah) and fall in prostration, and will do the same for the third and fourth times till no-one remains in the (Hell) Fire except those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned therein." (The sub-narrator, Qatada used to say at that point, "...those upon whom eternity (in Hell) has been imposed.") (See Hadith No. 3, Vol 6).

[Muslim Soldier]

If Allah helps you, then there is none who can overcome you. If He forsakes you, then who else is there other than Him who can help you? Therefore, in Allah let the believers put their trust.[3:160]

Very true but I pose you a question. Why would these chosen people try to overcome you when Allah forsakes you?

First of all, what is intercession? Lets give a practical example:

You need a job. Your freind knows the CEO of the company and he will talk to him to get you a job. Thus your freind becomes the Intercessor. Now what does this imply?

1) The CEO does not know anything about you.

2) He must be informed of you by someone else.

Now lets put this into perspective to our topic.

You want Allah to forgive you, you want him to grant you a place in Jannah. The "Righteous" man in the grave and the "Auwliya" are your freind. They will speak to Allah about you and ask for forgiveness for you. What does this Imply?

1) Allah does not know anything about you. This goes against many of Allah's names such as All-Hearer, Al-Seer, and All-Knower.

2) He must be informed by someone about you. Again it goes against Allah's names.

So by calling unto someone else besides Allah you are infact saying that Allah does not hear you nor does he know of you but only can 'learn' about you through the 'auwliya'. You are rejecting many of Allah's names an attributes and such are

Does it all make sense now?

vert practical example, but if what you say is true that since Allah knows why should we intercede, then why does Allah ask us to pray, recite dua and all else?

Sorry for not puttin it all in one post. It didnt fit

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Those two quotes contradict each other. One says there is no intercession while the other says ther will be in the hear after. Whic is which?

So which is true??

They dont. Your taking the Verse out of context. That verse is directed at the People of the Book, the Bani Isreal..i.e. The Jews.

My quote refers to what your doing. Calling on others in this life. Intercession will only occur on the Day of Judgement and only those whom Allah permits will be able to intercede.

Your blind following is doing just that. It is blinding you to the Truth. We are quoting you Quran and the hadiths, yet you are doing your utmost to find a contradiction between them. Alas for you, there is no contradiction ever between the Words of Allah and the Words of His Messenger.

I have said many times that there are some chosen people. The but and the except prove this.

Now if you have to say anything, do so regarding this ayat. What do you have to say about it?

First, you are breaking forum rules and are subject to a warn.

Please refrain from typing extremely huge letters in order to get your message through. 5% warning

Second, go back and read my last post about this. If you will continue to repeat your claim, whilst proving nothing of yourself, I will close this thread.

Haha.
1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.
2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them. now don tell me that using a telephone to contact someone is shirk.;D

Again you repeat yourself.

1- Actually, Idols were used to get to Allah. The arabs knew that, but the beleived the idols to be intercessors. They knew there was only one Creator. But they worshipped many.

La Illaha Illalah does not simply mean There is no God beside Allah. The truer meaning of that is There is none worthy of being Worshipped Except Allah.

Tawheed is of three categories.

a)Tawheed Ar-Rububiyyah - Oneness of Allah's Lordship

b)Tawheed Al-Uluhiyyah - Only Allah is worthy of being Worshipped

c) Tawheed Asmaa a Was Sifaat - Allah's names and Attributes are only His.

Dua is an act of Worship. If it is directed at anyone else, even in the most trivial manner it you are guilty of shirk.

Therefore, by calling out to the dead to ask them to pray to Allah for you, you are

a) Negating Tawheed Al-Uluhiyyah, by worshipping them. Dua is an act of Worship as explained before.

b) Negating Tawheed Asmaa a Was Sifaat - You are implying that Allah does not know of you and that he must be 'informed' of you by these "auwliya".


2- So why are you calling out to them then? Your using different words, and are trying to avoid the use of the word 'intercession'. I have already showed you the proofs and conditions of Intercession and when and where it will occur.

2b- Are you capable of differentiating the living from the dead? If so, then you would know that when you are using a telephone you are talking to someone who is alive.

Also, why are you using a telephone to call him? Because he cannot hear you, right? Put it into perspective. You are saying that Allah cannot hear you, thats why you need to use these people to get to Allah. i.e. they are your telephone.
You are denying Allah's names and Attributes. That is an act of Kufr. By using your anaolgy, you proved my point.

vert practical example, but if what you say is true that since Allah knows why should we intercede, then why does Allah ask us to pray, recite dua and all else?

Like i said before, Allah will tell the person who he is pleased with to do the intercession, and he will tell him who he can intercede for. That is only to raise the rank of the person doing the intercession.

Dua is the only thing that can change Qadr. That is another topic of itself.

:w:

[Muslim Soldier]

First, if it is subject to warn then why is it there?

And, it would be better to close the thread coz you dont want to accept.
...and they have eyes but they cannot see... Sura Baqarah

...and we have placed chains on thier necks.... Yasin

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

First, if it is subject to warn then why is it there?

And, it would be better to close the thread coz you dont want to accept.
...and they have eyes but they cannot see... Sura Baqarah

...and we have placed chains on thier necks.... Yasin

:sl:

Because you broke the froum rules. Please take the time to read over them.

Ofcourse we wont accept. Because you have not brought any explicit proof. And please, as nice at it may seem, dont declare others kafir and put upon them verses of Punishment from the Quran. You are in no position to judge us.

The Prophet SAW has said, if a muslim declares another muslim a Kafir, then one of the two are not muslims.

Blind following will not lead you to the right path. The Quran and the Sunnah are the right path. I - and others, have shown you explicit proofs that condemn and forbid the very thing you are supporting. If you wish to put your self before Allah and His Messenger, then the burden of doing so lies upon you.

An-Nisa - 65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad ) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

These Verses in clear terms says that those slain in the way of Allah (swt) are not dead but alive. And they enjoy special blessings from Allah (swt). Hence when we address them they can hear us as they are alive.

The fallacy here is that you assume that the life of those in the grave is the same as this life - it is not. The life in the grave is a totally different life, disconnected from our present life. That is what it means to die.

Prophet Salih (as) speaks with the souls of his people;
“So they slew the she –camel and revolted against their lord’s commandment, and they said: O Salih! Bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles. Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode. Then he turned away from them and said; O my people, I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice”. (Sura A’araf: 77-79).
[...]
The third ayat shows that Prophet Salih (as) spoke to them after their death and destruction and said “I presented you the divine message but you disliked someone giving you advice.”

So, if these peole can not hear, why did Prophet Salih say so?

This in itself is not evidence the dead can hear. Because it is just as likely that the Prophet Saalih spoke these words while they could not hear, just as it is not necessary that Pharoah heard the words addressed to Him while drowning
10:91 Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the Mufsidoon (evil-doers, corrupts, etc.).

While the scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah differ on the issue of the dead hearing, it should be obvious that whether they can or they can't, it does not justify invoking them/supplicating to them.

This answers your other quotes which basically attempt to establish the hearing of the dead.

1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.

Actually, the mushrikeen arabs believed Allah was God:
29:61-63. If you were to ask them: "Who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" They will surely reply: "Allâh." How then are they deviating (as polytheists and disbelievers)? Allâh enlarges the provision for whom He wills of His slaves, and straitens it for whom (He wills). Verily, Allâh is the All Knower of everything. If you were to ask them: "Who sends down water (rain) from the sky, and gives life therewith to the earth after its death?" They will surely reply: "Allâh." Say: "All the praises and thanks be to Allâh!" Nay! Most of them have no sense.

And they believed that their idols had no power in and of themselves:
Ibn Abbas reported that the mushrikeen would say (during Hajj): "I respond to your call, O Allah, I respond to your call. There is no partner that you have..." at this, the Prophet saws would interject and say, "Woe to you! Stop (here), stop (here)," but they would proceed, "...except a partner that belongs to you. You control him, and all that he controls." They would say this while performing tawaf around the Ka'bah. (Sahih Muslim 2/842)

See this post where I responded to this claim in more detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost...0&postcount=14

2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them.

What you have said is exactly what the mushrikeen arabs used to say:
Qur'an 39:3. "As to those beings other than Allah whom we have taken as Awliya, we do not worship them except that they may draw us closer to Him;"

Qur'an 10:18. "Those are only our intercessors with Allah."

:w:

[SirZubair]

Yes,in my opinion,it is pure shirk.

Say if you misplace something,PRAY to allah s.w.t

IF allah s.w.t wants you to find whatever you have misplaced,you will find it. But if allah s.w.t doesnt want you to find it,then you wont.

...but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. (2:216)

By visiting these people that say they can tell you exactly where such and such things can be found,..yes,time to time they are correct,and that is ONLY because ALLAH S.W.T wants them to tell you the truth...so that allah s.w.t can test you,to see wether you will relay on on someone other than allah s.w.t.

And so if any of us is blown away by these people,if we are amazed at how accurate they are,and we start relying on them for all our answers,we'll be commiting Shirk.

Allah s.w.t is know as the 'all knower' for a reason , NO HUMAN has the rights to steal that title from our lord.

Not yesterday.
Not today.
Not tommorrow.
Never.

[SirZubair]

Salaam

I am not a scholar but here are my views

When you are afriad or shy about meeting or asking someone something, you ask someone who is closer to this person to ask on your behalf.
The same way, in times of difficulties, if you ask through the prophet or shaheed since they are closer to Allah, they ask on your behalf hence your hajaat is accepted.

Example
Allah gave Hazrat Isa the power to cure the sick. Now when people went to him and asked him to cure them, Isa (as) cured them. Is this shirk? No

Why?
because Isa cured through the grace of Allah. The same way when your parents ask through the shaheed, they ask the shaheed to ask Allah to grant the wish.

Isa a.s was,..IS pure.He was a blessing to his nation.He came to his nation for a reason,to purify them.And in the process he healed them.

NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

So your arguement ends where it begun.

Sidi,here is a suggestion,..instead of 'boycott israel',..how about we all boycott shirk? ;)

Even women that write to 'womens magazines' and ask for advice 'what should i do?help!',..is simply WRONG.

If allah s.w.t sends harm your way,no1 can save you. And if allah s.w.t protects you,no1 can harm you.

My #1 advice to the world is,..Make Dua'. Lots of it.We need it.

[Muslim Soldier]

I read all your posts, and thats saying something!

I thank you all for answering.
Ansar Adl, these idols were not favoured by Allah note that.

NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

I was talking about asking Muhammad (saw). Do you mean to say he too was less than Isa (as)?

Even women that write to 'womens magazines' and ask for advice 'what should i do?help!',..is simply WRONG.

I thik you do not know the meaning of shirk. Perhaps you could read about it.


For the rest, I can not argue with people whose minds are closed. Stop thinking in a box and expand your horizon. That much I tell you as a brother.

When you have opened your minds, and are ready to learn, PM me and we will start another discussion.

For now, so long!

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I read all your posts, and thats saying something!

I thank you all for answering.

So Inshallah, i hope we've gotten the point across?

I was talking about asking Muhammad (saw). Do you mean to say he too was less than Isa (as)?

I think the brother said

'NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

I thik you do not know the meaning of shirk. Perhaps you could read about it.

Rathar, I think you do not know the meaning of Tawheed, and it seems you need to read and learn about it.

For the rest, I can not argue with people whose minds are closed. Stop thinking in a box and expand your horizon. That much I tell you as a brother.

There is no 'opening' of a mind when it comes to disbelieving in Allah and even coming the tiniest bit close to Shirk. Rathar you are putting your opinions above that of Allah's Messenger and as you yourself have read, we have not provided anything of our minds, but the Words of Allah and the Words of His Messenger.

Al-Araf- 146. I shall turn away from My Ayât (verses of the Qur'ân) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.

When you have opened your minds, and are ready to learn, PM me and we will start another discussion.

We will reply to you with the Words of Allah that he commanded to the Prophet to say:

Al-Anam- 162. Say (O Muhammad ): "Verily, my Salât (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

164. Say: "Shall I seek a lord other than Allâh, while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then unto your Lord is your return, so He will tell you that wherein you have been differing."

For now, so long!

Al-Isra- 81. And say: "Truth (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism or this Qur'ân or Jihâd against polytheists) has come and Bâtil (falsehood, i.e. Satan or polytheism, etc.) has vanished. Surely! Bâtil is ever bound to vanish."

And please see this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...n-tawheed.html

:w:

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