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renak
04-08-2006, 11:49 AM
It seems that every time I check for new posts on this forum, there is a new one pertaining to a sisters love of hijab. I did a search for "hijab" and found 482 threads. I understand that Muslim sisters value their hijab. However, I would like to know what motivates the Muslim sisters to continuously seek out poems and articles about the hijab.

1. Do you feel that you are placed in a position in which you must defend your hijab, on a regular basis?

2. Does the hijab define you as a woman and a person?

3. Is the hijab one of the more important issues facing Muslim women in todays society?

Thank you for helping me with my continuous research pertaining to Islam. :)
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04-08-2006, 11:53 AM
1. Do you feel that you are placed in a position in which you must defend your hijab, on a regular basis?
Yep. People steroetype u. Basicly they look at you differently if ur wearing a Hijab than when ur not...

2. Does the hijab define you as a woman and a person?
Hijab is part of me.

3. Is the hijab one of the more important issues facing Muslim women in todays society?
It is ONE of the issues facing woman.
Reply

renak
04-12-2006, 04:57 PM
Pagal Kuri, thanks for your response.

Does anyone else want to speculate on why so many women on this forum concentrate largely on their hijab? I can respect a womans love for hijab; however, I'm failing to understand how hijab love is of greater significance than other issues affecting women.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-12-2006, 05:12 PM
Hi,

1. Yes. Its quite a regular thing for people to think I'm not enjoying "freedom" so they try to "help" me, by of course yelling "you're in america, you can take that off." Therefore, if you see many of the poems, they've got the themes stating we are in fact enjoying freedoms, etc. :)

2. Yes, maintaining my modesty is part of me....

3. Well, many of the poems are directed at those who hold misconceptions about the hijaab. There are also many articles/poems encouraging sisters who do not have the courage yet to wear it. For the girls who need encouragement, it is a major issue. For girls like in France who have to face the hijaab ban it is a issue. Of course there are other issues, but maintaining a woman's modesty will of course come first.

:)
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renak
04-14-2006, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by Labibah
Hi,

1. Yes. Its quite a regular thing for people to think I'm not enjoying "freedom" so they try to "help" me, by of course yelling "you're in america, you can take that off." Therefore, if you see many of the poems, they've got the themes stating we are in fact enjoying freedoms, etc. :)

Thanks for the clarification. If the concentration on the hijab makes the women feel better, then that's great!

2. Yes, maintaining my modesty is part of me....

3. Of course there are other issues, but maintaining a woman's modesty will of course come first.

This is a stance that I would have difficulty taking (Of course I'm referring to myself, and not criticizing you or anyone else for making modesty the main issue affecting women.):) Perhaps I am too new to Islam to understand the importance of modesty, or perhaps I am a more progressive Muslim (don't know yet :statisfie )

Thanks for the clarification and honest opinions.
:)
Thanks again!
Reply

M H Kahn
04-15-2006, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Pagal Kuri, thanks for your response.

Does anyone else want to speculate on why so many women on this forum concentrate largely on their hijab? I can respect a womans love for hijab; however, I'm failing to understand how hijab love is of greater significance than other issues affecting women.
Hijab is not an important issue at all. We are told by Allah to lower our gaze and guard our modesty and women should not display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands and others as permitted by Allah. Some scholars have come up with the 'hijab' and some with 'borka' to comly with this ordainment of God. But Allah has declared that He wants ease for us; so you may have your own way to obey this order even without hijab or borka. This is my personal view and scholars may differ. As far as I know, there is nothing specifc in the Quran or in any Ahadith that women should wear 'hijab' or 'borka' while they meet non-mahram men.
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renak
04-15-2006, 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
Hijab is not an important issue at all. We are told by Allah to lower our gaze and guard our modesty and women should not display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands and others as permitted by Allah. Some scholars have come up with the 'hijab' and some with 'borka' to comly with this ordainment of God. But Allah has declared that He wants ease for us; so you may have your own way to obey this order even without hijab or borka. This is my personal view and scholars may differ. As far as I know, there is nothing specifc in the Quran or in any Ahadith that women should wear 'hijab' or 'borka' while they meet non-mahram men.

I have read in multiple sources that the term "hijab" is in the Quran a few times, but is not defined as it is today. Thanks for providing another view M H Kahn.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-15-2006, 07:18 AM
Hi,

Is it not enough for a Muslima today that the wives of Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) and the female companions wore hijaab and niqaab? Did they not cover completely in front of ghair mahram men? :?

But I guess people feel better when they apply their own "logic" to deen..
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renak
04-15-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Labibah
Hi,

Is it not enough for a Muslima today that the wives of Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) and the female companions wore hijaab and niqaab? Did they not cover completely in front of ghair mahram men? :?

But I guess people feel better when they apply their own "logic" to deen..
Many years have passed since the above mentioned women walked the earth. The covering of women was a cultural practice of many women, of different faiths, during this time period. We do not live in the same society as these women lived. We do not adhere to all the cultural practices of people during this time period. So, actually for me it is not enough to wear hijab simply because the female companions did so. For example, I do not ride on a donkey for transportation, I do not prepare my meals in the same primitive manner, etc....

I think it is necessary to apply our own logic to deen. I doubt that God would expect anything less. Of course, if our personal logic tells us to wear hijab, then we need to do so. However, due to free thought and education not everyones personal logic will be the same. :) :)
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Khaldun
04-15-2006, 07:39 AM
:sl:

Many years have passed since the above mentioned women walked the earth. The covering of women was a cultural practice of many women, of different faiths, during this time period. We do not live in the same society as these women lived. We do not adhere to all the cultural practices of people during this time period. So, actually for me it is not enough to wear hijab simply because the female companions did so. For example, I do not ride on a donkey for transportation, I do not prepare my meals in the same primitive manner, etc....
This is the ultimate flaw, these werent only cultural practices as you might have known, before Islam these women didnt wear these type of clothes so these where infact revelation of Allah and with the approval of His Messenger :arabic5: And to say that you wont follow them in their goodness, isnt a sign of faith, but perhaps you didnt realise this, since your new in faith :)

And as for transport etc, we only follow them in matters of religion etc.

I think it is necessary to apply our own logic to deen. I doubt that God would expect anything less.
Yet another critical flaw here, your assumption. Why assume when you got the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet :arabic5: infront of you?
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renak
04-15-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:



This is the ultimate flaw, these werent only cultural practices as you might have known, before Islam these women didnt wear these type of clothes so these where infact revelation of Allah and with the approval of His Messenger :arabic5: And to say that you wont follow them in their goodness, isnt a sign of faith, but perhaps you didnt realise this, since your new in faith :)

A different interpretation is not a "flaw". Yes, this manner of dress was cultural. Women did wear this type of clothing prior to the formation of Islam. I do not lack faith, please do not pass judgement.

And as for transport etc, we only follow them in matters of religion etc.

As others on this thread have posted, hijab isn't necessarily a matter of religion. If one wishes to make hijab a matter of religion, then that's fine for them personally.

Yet another critical flaw here, your assumption. Why assume when you got the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet :arabic5: infront of you?

Another flaw???? Why are you so quick to judge? I do have the Quran in on my desk. However, interpretation of the Quran is personal. I also feel that the personal interpretation of the Quran (which becomes the expression of ones opinions) is helpful when having dialogue. We can all copy and paste scripture from the Quran (how much effort does this take?). Can all of us use our God given minds to formulate intelligent interpretation (yes, we all can, but some choose not to do so).
:) :) :)
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Khaldun
04-15-2006, 08:02 AM
:sl:

Please bring evidence of the fact that these women wore this before Islam.


I never said you hadnt faith, please dont judge me. I only said whoever doesnt follow the Prophet :arabic5: through the understanding of the Companions, THAT person has not true faith, Im sorry however if you misunderstood me.

The Prophet :arabic5: gave his commentary on the Quran and so did the Companions and the Pious Predecessors, so im sorry but it is not up to you or me to pick up a translation of the Quran and make up meanings.
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renak
04-15-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

Please bring evidence of the fact that these women wore this before Islam.

Do a search on the internet or at your local library about the history of clothing and custom. Of the top of my mind, I would suggest Greco-Roman Dress. You will find evidence of the modest dress, some veil usage, and definitately headcoverings.
:) :) :)
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renak
04-15-2006, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE=Khaldun;258698]:sl:



This is the ultimate flaw, these werent only cultural practices as you might have known, before Islam these women didnt wear these type of clothes so these where infact revelation of Allah and with the approval of His Messenger :arabic5: And to say that you wont follow them in their goodness, isnt a sign of faith, but perhaps you didnt realise this, since your new in faith :)

QUOTE]

Sorry if I misunderstood you! :? I still neglect to see how you were not questioning my faith! However, I don't wish to have a long pointless discussion about this.
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renak
04-15-2006, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

The Prophet :arabic5: gave his commentary on the Quran and so did the Companions and the Pious Predecessors, so im sorry but it is not up to you or me to pick up a translation of the Quran and make up meanings.
The Quran is words from God. I worship God alone. I do not worship the Prophet. I do not worship his predecessors. I respect them all, but I alone worship God. So yes, according to my belief (my sect of Islam) it is up to each individual to pick up the Quran and interpret it accordingly.

I view this to be a sectarian issue. I want to support the unity of Islam.
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M H Kahn
04-15-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:
Yet another critical flaw here, your assumption. Why assume when you got the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet :arabic5: infront of you?
Yes ! We have the Quran and the best of the ideals in the Sunnah of Muhammed (pbuh) to follow in order to be termed as true submitters. The Quran is before us throughout the world as it was exactly inspired to Muhammed(pbuh). But the problem is with the so-called Sunnahs (false stories or practices ascribed to the prophet ) which go against the Quran. The feeble minded discard the Quran and follow the false stories and run into disbelief. We see in Saudi Arabia and in other Middle Eastern countries that ladies cover their whole body from head to toe under 'borka' even in scorching heat of the summer. Allah has ordained for women neither 'hijab' nor 'borka' that sometimes cause much hardship in heat. But Allah says:"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. ................................" [22:78]

This is not all; we are told by Allah to lower our gaze and guard our modesty and women should not display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms to non-mahrams.

Allah wants this much from our women and He wants ease for His slaves. Do the practices or fatwas for strict adherence to hijab and/or borka conform to Allah's ordainment in the Quran ? When the Quran and usual practice or stories ascribed to Muhammed(pbuh) differ on an issue, the believer's task is to adhere to the Quran and reject the prevalent practices as un-Islamic and the stories as false inventions.

There is, however, no scope in this case to say that 'hijab' and 'borka' do not conform to the Quranic ordainment. Obviously they serve the purpose of the ordainment made in the Quran by Allah. But He wants ease, too, for His slaves; therefore, if some women do not use 'borka, or 'hijab' and they obey the order of Allah otherwise by lowering their gaze, guarding their modesty, drawing their veils over their bossoms and not displaying their beauty and charms except for what normally appear, I think we should not have any objection about their dress.
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M H Kahn
04-15-2006, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by renak
The Quran is words from God. I worship God alone. I do not worship the Prophet. I do not worship his predecessors. I respect them all, but I alone worship God. So yes, according to my belief (my sect of Islam) it is up to each individual to pick up the Quran and interpret it accordingly.
I view this to be a sectarian issue. I want to support the unity of Islam.
I think you are a bit misconceived. Allah sent divine books as well as messengers from time to time for inviting people to worship Him only. All the messengers taught the people to worship Allah alone and they practically showed the ways of worships, for the prophets were the best worshippers of Allah, Who says that we should obey the Quran and the prophet. We should not worship the prophet, nor should we believe that the prophet will be of any help to us in the hereafter; for Allah says in the Quran that we shall have no friend, protector or intercessor except Allah Himself in the hereafter.

We have to worship Allah alone in the way the prophet has worshipped Him. Besides, we have to obey all orders given by Allah in the Quran including the order to obey the prophet. But most of the sayings and practices of the prophet have been recorded much later (around 200 to 250 years after his death) from hearsays coming down through generations by different individuals. These recods are called Hadith today. But there are many stories and practices recorded in these books that contradict the Quran. In such cases, I think you have to reject the man-made books and obey the Quran only. But we should accept those stories and practices as appear true and conform with the Quran in solving any problem. If not warranted by any problem, why should I look for earlier practice or stories assigned to the prophet? Unwarranted false knowledge has turned millions of people into prophet-worshippers who read Quran and worship Allah, the prophet, graves and live people simultaneously. So it is fraught with danger to run after unnecessary knowledge about Islam.
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Nawal89
04-15-2006, 11:21 AM
^are you another one of those people who say that the sunnah is unacceptable? greeeeeeeat. Just what we need.

Yet you're saying that we should worship Allah the way Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did, How in the world do you know how he did it if you dont even accept the facts on how he did it the first place. Make up your mind.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 11:25 AM
only the best wear the hijab seeking only Allahs love :thumbs_up
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Khaldun
04-15-2006, 10:22 PM
:sl:

Do a search on the internet or at your local library about the history of clothing and custom. Of the top of my mind, I would suggest Greco-Roman Dress. You will find evidence of the modest dress, some veil usage, and definitately headcoverings.
Im sorry but, you brought this issue up so the evidence lies on you.

Sorry if I misunderstood you! I still neglect to see how you were not questioning my faith! However, I don't wish to have a long pointless discussion about this.
As I said I didnt intend this and if you were wronged I apoligies, although I dont see how you were. But I wont drag on a pointless discussion with you :)

The Quran is words from God. I worship God alone. I do not worship the Prophet.
Neither do I

I do not worship his predecessors.
The Prophets :arabic5: predecessors? Im sorry but where did you get that from?

I respect them all, but I alone worship God. So yes, according to my belief (my sect of Islam) it is up to each individual to pick up the Quran and interpret it accordingly.
Really? What sect is this? Just curious :okay:

I view this to be a sectarian issue. I want to support the unity of Islam.
If it was I would have closed this thread.
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renak
04-16-2006, 10:48 PM
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/veils.stm

One link outlining Greco Roman attire of women prior to Islam.
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NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 10:59 PM
We have been discussing this very issue in the thread here.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 01:58 AM
Hello Renak,
Originally Posted by renak
So yes, according to my belief (my sect of Islam) it is up to each individual to pick up the Quran and interpret it accordingly.
So if someone wants to interpret the Qur'an in a way that means they should kill everyone, that is acceptable?! Pardon me, renak, but I think you're in no position to start making a new sect in a religion you have yet to learn.

Evidently, you have not read the Qur'an completely, as the Qur'an itself commands Muslims to adhere to the Shari'ah and not to follow their whims and personal desires as you've suggested above.

45:18 Then have We established you (O Muhammad) upon the Shari'ah from Our Command, so follow it and do not follow the desires of those who know not.

If everyone was just supposed to interpret the Qur'an according to their whims then what was the purpose of God sending a Messenger to live amongst the people and show them how to interpret the laws? The Qur'an itself tells us the function of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh:
16:44 And We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad) the reminder, so that you may EXPLAIN unto all mankind that which has been revealed for them

The Prophet's function was to explain the revelation of God and show us how to interpret and implement it.

And we certainly have the right to question your faith if you did not accept the understanding of the Qur'an as it was explained and implemented by the Prophet, because the Qur'an itself negates the faith of such people:

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Regards
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*noor
04-17-2006, 02:08 AM
we should not even question what the Quran and the Hadith say about Hijaab. We should believe in it just because it says so in the Quran. I don't know why some people try to create their own philosophy about it. I would rather have a sister tell me that she is not strong enough to wear it than to say that there is no proof that it is necessary.
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renak
04-17-2006, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hello Renak,

So if someone wants to interpret the Qur'an in a way that means they should kill everyone, that is acceptable?! Pardon me, renak, but I think you're in no position to start making a new sect in a religion you have yet to learn.

Who said I created a new sect???? That's funny!;D I hope I get featured on some T.V. special. ;D

Evidently, you have not read the Qur'an completely, as the Qur'an itself commands Muslims to adhere to the Shari'ah and not to follow their whims and personal desires as you've suggested above.

Actually, I did read it completely in college (approx 10 years ago). The reading was a requirement; therefore, I didn't read it with the love and desire I now possess.

45:18 Then have We established you (O Muhammad) upon the Shari'ah from Our Command, so follow it and do not follow the desires of those who know not.

I think it's up to each individual to decide who "those who know not" are.

If everyone was just supposed to interpret the Qur'an according to their whims then what was the purpose of God sending a Messenger to live amongst the people and show them how to interpret the laws? The Qur'an itself tells us the function of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh:
16:44 And We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad) the reminder, so that you may EXPLAIN unto all mankind that which has been revealed for them

I like to read Mohammeds explanations. They are very insightful.

The Prophet's function was to explain the revelation of God and show us how to interpret and implement it.

And we certainly have the right to question your faith if you did not accept the understanding of the Qur'an as it was explained and implemented by the Prophet, because the Qur'an itself negates the faith of such people:

I don't mind you questioning my faith. May God bless you.

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Regards
Allah is All-Knowing:)
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renak
04-17-2006, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hello Renak,

Pardon me, renak, but I think you're in no position to start making a new sect in a religion you have yet to learn.
Learning is a lifelong process. We do not reach a point in our existence in which we are all knowing.

I do admit that I have not studied Islam as much as some people. However, I think it is worth saying that I know I've read more of the Quran, and studied it more extinsively than many people who have classified themselves as Muslims for a lifetime (very sad...but true).

Nonetheless, I find the opinions of all people on this forum (including you) to be of relevence, and great interest. I feel that the differences in opinions allow me to consider various interpretations, and as a result I become stronger in my religious convictions. I don't find it necessary to agree with everyone. I definetely do not expect everyone to subscribe to my views. If anyone on this forum feels that it is in my interest to pursuade them to think as I do, then they are wrong. I also would like to offer up an apology to anyone who may view me in such an offensive manner.

Warm regards
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by renak
I think it's up to each individual to decide who "those who know not" are.
It's a fairly black and white issue when it comes to someone who hasn't studied the Shari'ah.

I like to read Mohammeds explanations. They are very insightful.
It is not just a matter of 'liking to read them', it is a matter of accepting them. If you agree on the latter, then you have no reasonable basis to reject hijab as a cultural practice because it was mandated by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

In fact, it was not a cultural practice as mentioned by the Qur'an itself, that prior to Islam the women use to walk in public without covering themselves adequately. As the Qur'an commands the believing women:

33:33 and do not display yourselves like that of the Jahiliyya times

Jahiliyya is the word the Qur'an uses to refer to the pre-islamic period. So the Qur'an mentions that the women used to dress immodestly in the pre-islamic period, and both the Qur'an and the Prophet mandated the Islamic dress. This demolishes the claim that it was something cultural.

Learning is a lifelong process.
But there is a distinct difference between those who have studied 'Ulûm Al-Qur'ân and Usûl At-Tafsîr, and those who couldn't even tell you the meaning of those terms without doing an internet search.

However, I think it is worth saying that I know I've read more of the Quran, and studied it more extinsively than many people who have classified themselves as Muslims for a lifetime (very sad...but true).
My concern is not with the ignorant. I'm speaking of the scholars and students of knowledge.
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renak
04-17-2006, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
It's a fairly black and white issue when it comes to someone who hasn't studied the Shari'ah.

If you read my response you will see that I have studied the Shari'ah! I love it!!!!! That is why I will never stop seeking to learn more.:)

It is not just a matter of 'liking to read them', it is a matter of accepting them. If you agree on the latter, then you have no reasonable basis to reject hijab as a cultural practice because it was mandated by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I respect your opinion; yet I disagree.

In fact, it was not a cultural practice as mentioned by the Qur'an itself, that prior to Islam the women use to walk in public without covering themselves adequately. As the Qur'an commands the believing women:

33:33 and do not display yourselves like that of the Jahiliyya times

Jahiliyya is the word the Qur'an uses to refer to the pre-islamic period. So the Qur'an mentions that the women used to dress immodestly in the pre-islamic period, and both the Qur'an and the Prophet mandated the Islamic dress. This demolishes the claim that it was something cultural.

Regards
:thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 02:45 AM
If you read my response you will see that I have studied the Shari'ah!
What branches of Shari'ah have you studied?

I respect your opinion; yet I disagree.
I didn't present any opinions, I just cited a fact. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh mandated the dress. And prior to Islam the arabs dressed in a fashion which would be considered immodest by Islamic standards. Which fact are you disputing?
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renak
04-17-2006, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
What branches of Shari'ah have you studied?

I've studied the Quran, hadiths, & sunna. Are you referring to the sources, or the different branches of Shariah? :statisfie

I didn't present any opinions, I just cited a fact. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh mandated the dress. And prior to Islam the arabs dressed in a fashion which would be considered immodest by Islamic standards. Which fact are you disputing?

In all due respect, I'm not the only person on this forum who does not believe that hijab was mandated. I respect that you consider this obligatory.

:statisfie
:) :)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 03:13 AM
I've studied the Quran, hadiths, & sunna. Are you referring to the sources, or the different branches of Shariah?
Since I asked what branches of Shari'ah have studied, I think it is a good guess that I am referring to branches of Shari'ah. ;)
You simply mentioned the sources you have studied without telling me what science you have studied. For example with regard to the Qur'an, did you study An-Nâsikh wal Mansûkh, Asbâb an-Nuzûl, i'jâz al-Qur'ân, Usûl At-Tafsîr, etc. Please be specific.

In all due respect, I'm not the only person on this forum who does not believe that hijab was mandated.
You didn't answer my question; You just committed the fallacy of appeal to authority. Please tell me which of the facts are you disputing?

Regards
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M H Kahn
04-17-2006, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
What branches of Shari'ah have you studied?


I didn't present any opinions, I just cited a fact. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh mandated the dress. And prior to Islam the arabs dressed in a fashion which would be considered immodest by Islamic standards. Which fact are you disputing?
You say that 'hijab' was mandated by Muhammed(pbuh) as a compulsion for compiance of the Quranic ordainment to lower the gaze, guard the modesty, draw the veils over their bossoms and not display the beauty and charms except for what normally appear. But have you got any evidence to support your claim ? Or is it a mere presumption ? Please enrich us with authentic knowledge.
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renak
04-17-2006, 03:32 AM
Definition of jahiliyya : This can mean "ignorance" or even "barbarism" and refers to the state people lived in before Muhammad received his revelation from God and brought Islam to the world. This was a time of lawlessness and idolatry, as contrasted with the period of time under Islamic rule, characterized by morality, enlightenment and divine law.

I think it is fair to state that there were various manners of dress within pre-Islamic times. I provided a link in a previous post which discussed the manner of dress for some Greco-Roman women (prior to Islam). The link discusses the modest dress, use of the veil, and head coverings. Thus, one can argue that modest dress was worn by some women prior to Islam. I fail to see how the verse, "33:33 and do not display yourselves like that of the Jahiliyya times" gives credence to hijab.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Thus, one can argue that modest dress was worn by some women prior to Islam. I fail to see how the verse, "33:33 and do not display yourselves like that of the Jahiliyya times" gives credence to hijab.
The verse clearly states that in the pre-islamci period the women used to 'display themselves' in a manner deemed impermissable by the Qur'an. Clear evidence that the hijab was not just a 'cultural practice' because it was in stark contrast to the arab culture of that time!

Regards
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renak
04-17-2006, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Since I asked what branches of Shari'ah have studied, I think it is a good guess that I am referring to branches of Shari'ah. ;)
You simply mentioned the sources you have studied without telling me what science you have studied. For example with regard to the Qur'an, did you study An-Nâsikh wal Mansûkh, Asbâb an-Nuzûl, i'jâz al-Qur'ân, Usûl At-Tafsîr, etc. Please be specific.

I can provide the two branches. However, isn't this leading to sectarian squabbling? I don't wish to open a can of worms, and have sunni's and shia's defending their own positions.

Regards
:) :) :)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 03:49 AM
I can provide the two branches. However, isn't this leading to sectarian squabbling? I don't wish to open a can of worms, and have sunni's and shia's defending their own positions.
:confused: What has this to do with sectarian issues??? I'm asking you which branch (i.e. area/science/discipline) of Shari'ah law you studied.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The verse clearly states that in the pre-islamci period the women used to 'display themselves' in a manner deemed impermissable by the Qur'an. Clear evidence that the hijab was not just a 'cultural practice' because it was in stark contrast to the arab culture of that time!

Why are you ignoring the fact that many women during pre-Islamic times did dress modestly? Did you view my link?

When one examines the definition of jihiliyya and applies the definition to the cultural dresss during pre-Islamic times, I do not see how one can conclude that all women dressed impermissable (according to the Quran).

Regards
Thanks
Reply

M H Kahn
04-17-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by renak
:) :) :)
:sl:
There is no sect, madhab or any other type of division in Islam; it is one and only code of conduct for the whole mankind.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:confused: What has this to do with sectarian issues??? I'm asking you which branch (i.e. area/science/discipline) of Shari'ah law you studied.
The Shia's and Sunni's study different branches. Is this not correct?

I do not wish to post which branches I have studied, just to open myself to attack by a member of an opposite sect.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
:sl:
There is no sect, madhab or any other type of division in Islam; it is one and only code of conduct for the whole mankind.
Ideally this may be true. However, do you ignore that different sects exist in Islam?
Reply

Ummu Amatullah
04-17-2006, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by renak
I have read in multiple sources that the term "hijab" is in the Quran a few times, but is not defined as it is today.
:sl: my dear sister,

Sister if I do recall and please correct me if I'm wrong,but you do live in Minnesota right?As you probably know Minnesota has a very large Somali and Arab population,so if you go to any of the different masjids and observe the jilbab the sisters wear.Then you'll recognize that the Somali and Arab sisters have their own different ways of wearing the jilbab.The Somali sisters wear a big,hard built nicely decorated Jilbab,while the Arab sisters wear the Abaya and what not.Both sisters from each side have approached many sheiks asking them which version of the jilbab was the right version of the jilbab.The Sheiks always agreed with the Somali sisters since their jilbab was closest to the discription of how the jilbab should be.

The Ayah:"(to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.)."
This Ayah when explained by Ibn Kathir said, "Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing."

The different cultures interpretted this Ayah in different ways and took it as that,but sister I would just like to point out to you that "Jilbab isn't only used for the covering worn over the Muslim females body,but along with that Jilbab comes the jilbab of the eyes,heart,intentions,and behavior.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Shukri
:sl: my dear sister,

Sister if I do recall and please correct me if I'm wrong,but you do live in Minnesota right?


Actually, I've never been to Minnesota.

The different cultures interpretted this Ayah in different ways and took it as that,but sister I would just like to point out to you that "Jilbab isn't only used for the covering worn over the Muslim females body,but along with that Jilbab comes the jilbab of the eyes,heart,intentions,and behavior.

Do you think that it is possible to to jihab of the eyes, heart, intentions, and behavior without the physical jihab (garment)?
thanks
Reply

M H Kahn
04-17-2006, 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Ideally this may be true. However, do you ignore that different sects exist in Islam?
:sl:
I hear many people, both scholars and ordinaries, say that they belong to different Islams; but I know of only one Islam-- to obey Allah and obey the prophet. I feel I do not belong personally to any of the many Islams that some people recognize. I belong to the only Islam I have known from the Quran which has been taught to us by Muhammed (pbuh).

May Allah guide us rightly !
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 04:12 AM
Why are you ignoring the fact that many women during pre-Islamic times did dress modestly?
You believe in the Qur'an, don't you? The Qur'an tells believing women, 'Don't display yourselves in the way of those in the pre-islamic period'. The Qur'an has described the cultural norm of the arab society - to display themselves in a manner that the Qur'an deems impermissable. This is a simple fact. The Qur'an clearly prohibits the pre-islamic cultural dress, thus demolishing the claim of anyone who suggests that the Islamic dress was inherited from cultural tradition.

Did you view my link?
Greco-roman dress has nothing to do with it. The Qur'an forbids Muslim women to dress in the pre-islamic arab fashion.

When one examines the definition of jihiliyya and applies the definition to the cultural dresss during pre-Islamic times, I do not see how one can conclude that all women dressed impermissable (according to the Quran).
I never said all women in Jahiliyyah dressed in an immodest fashion. The Christian nuns have maintained a dress very similar to the Muslim women. But the fact is, to claim that the Muslim dress was simply cultural is refuted by the Qur'an itself since the Qur'an prohibits Muslim women to display themselves according to the cultural dress of pre-islamic arabs.

The Shia's and Sunni's study different branches. Is this not correct?
No. They have different beliefs that they teach within those sciences, but that has nothing to do with what sciences of Shari'ah you study. Do you have something to hide? No one is going to attack you for telling us what branches of Shari'ah you've studied, if you have studied any at all. We only want to guage your current understanding, in order to assist you in learning.

Reagrds
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
:sl:
I hear many people, both scholars and ordinaries, say that they belong to different Islams; but I know of only one Islam-- to obey Allah and obey the prophet. I feel I do not belong personally to any of the many Islams that some people recognize. I belong to the only Islam I have known from the Quran which has been taught to us by Muhammed (pbuh).

May Allah guide us rightly !
I agree with you!
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
You believe in the Qur'an, don't you? The Qur'an tells believing women, 'Don't display yourselves in the way of those in the pre-islamic period'. The Qur'an has described the cultural norm of the arab society - to display themselves in a manner that the Qur'an deems impermissable. This is a simple fact. The Qur'an clearly prohibits the pre-islamic cultural dress, thus demolishing the claim of anyone who suggests that the Islamic dress was inherited from cultural tradition.

Yes, I believe the Quran. However, I believe you and I either have different translations, or interpret our verses differently.


Greco-roman dress has nothing to do with it. The Qur'an forbids Muslim women to dress in the pre-islamic arab fashion.

Uh....my point is the Greco-Roman dress was very much the same as the Islamic fashion (sometimes identical).

I never said all women in Jahiliyyah dressed in an immodest fashion. The Christian nuns have maintained a dress very similar to the Muslim women. But the fact is, to claim that the Muslim dress was simply cultural is refuted by the Qur'an itself since the Qur'an prohibits Muslim women to display themselves according to the cultural dress of pre-islamic arabs.


No. They have different beliefs that they teach within those sciences, but that has nothing to do with what sciences of Shari'ah you study. Do you have something to hide? No one is going to attack you for telling us what branches of Shari'ah you've studied, if you have studied any at all. We only want to guage your current understanding, in order to assist you in learning.

Reagrds
more to come....
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Yes, I believe the Quran. However, I believe you and I either have different translations, or interpret our verses differently.
I'm not providing any personal opinion or interpretation here, I'm stating fact.

Uh....my point is the Greco-Roman dress was very much the same as the Islamic fashion (sometimes identical).
So what? The notion that the hijab is a cultural practice is demolished when the Qur'an clearly forbids women to dispaly themselves in the pre-islamic arab fashion.

more to come....
I hope it includes the branches of Shari'ah you've studied, because I'm really interested in finding out the extent of your study of Islam so that we can better assist you in future learning.

Regards
Reply

Ummu Amatullah
04-17-2006, 04:26 AM
Do you think that it is possible to to jihab of the eyes, heart, intentions, and behavior without the physical jihab (garment)?
Sister No I don't think that's possible since the Jilbab worn over the Muslim females body is a commandment from Allah which can't be changed.Even though behavioral jilbab isn't possible without the Jilbab(garment),but the same can be said that there's no reason for the physical jilbab if the sisters Akhlaq isn't even firmly fixed.Many times have I been a witness to many sisters whom even though they're covered,but actually freely talk and associate with men.The reason for the Jilbab in the first place was to protect the women's chastity and to ensure her safety from getting molested,but if the sister is freely mixing with men,then the physical Jilbab wouldn't be of any importance since the sister has already removed the veil of chastity from her self and exposed herself to molestation and assault.

Oh really?You've never been to Minnesota? I could've swore I read somewhere in this forum that you were from Minnesota:?
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 04:43 AM
Ansar, why are you so interested in what sciences of the Shariah I study? I do not have anything to hide.

You state, "No. They have different beliefs that they teach within those sciences, but that has nothing to do with what sciences of Shari'ah you study. Do you have something to hide? No one is going to attack you for telling us what branches of Shari'ah you've studied, if you have studied any at all. We only want to guage your current understanding, in order to assist you in learning."

First of all, you are questioning if I studied any at all (after I stated I had). I'm a big girl. If you want to call me a liar, by all means do! I on the other hand I feel no desire to question what you feel to be the truth behind your words.

Secondly, it is common knowledge that Shia's and Sunni's tend to study different schools of thought. Most Shia's follow Jaafari.

Thirdly, you state that I won't be attacked if I state the school of thoughts I've studied. This is incorrect. Since I've joined this forum and stated that my fiance was Iraqi, I've received numerous messages stating that he "must be a Shia, and they are not real Muslims". I've been told that I need to avoid Shia Islam and seek out the Sunni sect. I've been sent links which are anti-Shia. I realize that the Islamicboard is not responsible for private messages or emails I receive; however, the mere fact that I do receive such messages/emails makes me reluctant to delve deeply into any issue which I believe may cause a sectarian issue.

Lastly, since you so greatly wish to know the schools of thought I've studied, I'll provide them. Most of my study was with the Maliki school (introduced to me in my youth by an Egyptian neighbor). However, I must admit that I haven't concentrated just on the Maliki school of thought. In fact, I pay little attention to the different schools. Within the last year I've been exposed to the Jaafari school of thought from my fiance and his family.

Now if any forum member is concerned that I am being exposed to the incorrect school of thought, please feel free to email me your insults. Just be advised that I delete your messages/emails, roll my eyes, laugh a bit, and go on with my day. ;D
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Khaldun
04-17-2006, 05:08 AM
:sl:
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/veils.stm

One link outlining Greco Roman attire of women prior to Islam.
Thats a nice link, although there is no evidence whatsoever that this was the clothes of the Jahiliyyah. Rather there are hadith that state the opposite of the dress code before Islam.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:


Thats a nice link, although there is no evidence whatsoever that this was the clothes of the Jahiliyyah. Rather there are hadith that state the opposite of the dress code before Islam.
If one considers the time period in discussion then it is evidence.:sister:
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Khaldun
04-17-2006, 05:12 AM
:sl:

If one considers the time period in discussion then it is evidence.
Im sorry but its not, at most its very wish washy. Just because one group of people in one Land or region practised something does not neccessarily mean others did aswell.
Reply

renak
04-17-2006, 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'm not providing any personal opinion or interpretation here, I'm stating fact.

Okay. I respect your fact.:statisfie

So what? The notion that the hijab is a cultural practice is demolished when the Qur'an clearly forbids women to dispaly themselves in the pre-islamic arab fashion.

If the Quran forbids women to dress in pre-islamic fashion, and pre-islamic fashion included the modest dress of Islamic women, then perhaps we've found a contradiction in the Quran. I shutter at this thought, but will address it with some knowledgeable Muslims that I know.
Warm regards!
Reply

Abu Zakariya
04-17-2006, 02:12 PM
He didn't ask you about which school of thought you've studied under, he asked you about which branch of the Shari'ah you've studied. There's a big difference.

About the link... If you look at the pictures, you'll see that the women didn't dress according to the Islamic requirements anyway, since they didn't cover their upper chest area (throats).
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-17-2006, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by renak
Ansar, why are you so interested in what sciences of the Shariah I study?
I already explained it to you - we want to guage your understanding of Islam. You claim you've studied Shari'ah, so I want to know which branches of Shari'ah you've studied. From what you post it is quite obvious that your knowledge of the Shari'ah is minimal. You couldn't identify the branches of Shari'ah if they were right in front of you, and this post is proof of it. Instead of telling me which branch of Shari'ah you've studied, you start talking about Madhâhib. I didn't ask you anything about schools of thought, I asked you which branch of Shari'ah you studied, but evidently you cannot distinguish between the two.

If the Quran forbids women to dress in pre-islamic fashion, and pre-islamic fashion included the modest dress of Islamic women, then perhaps we've found a contradiction in the Quran.
No, your interpretation contradicts the Qur'an, and that is why it is invalid. I already explained this simple issue to you. There have been many women who have dressed in a modest fashion before the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not speaking about them at all. It simply forbids Muslim women to dress according to the cultural norms of the Jahiliyya times. And since they were not leaving in greece or rome, for you to speak of Greco-roman dress is utterly irrelevant.
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tanveen
04-17-2006, 06:17 PM
perhaps the reason why there is such a focus on the hijab by the muslim women is because of the intense focus this aspect of islam recieves from the west. Obviously everywhere you go you hear about hijab which is linked to oppression. I myself am placed in several situations at a constant rate where have to defend the hijab for want of a better word, and at the least explain the reason why i CHOOSE to where it. I find this refreshing rather than an ordeal since it accounts to dawa on my part, and especially when i get to asert my case to intellectualssuch as professionals etc who seem to think they have valid reasons for looking down at the hijab, but alhamdullillah most reconsider their views after i'm done (or i hope they do).

Hijab is also an honour to Muslim women since it elevates us from the jahil women, and in my opinion the more it is spoken about, the more the issues surrounding Hijab can be clarified to a greater extent, although other issues are just as important, hijab is a blatently visible part of Islam which draws the extra attention, as does the beard and wearing of the thub by brothers (but perhaps to a lesser extent since the feminists ahve been on the hijabs case since the beginning). wasalam
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