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raniya
04-15-2006, 03:23 PM
Asalaamu alykum, it clearly states in the Qur'an and Hadith that women have to wear the jilbab, it is fard. When you live in a western society and living in a area where you are unlikey to find muslim brothers or sisters and u wear the full hijab isnt it more likey that u are looked at and spoken of and are a target rather than when u are decently covered, with ur hijab and body fully covered?

The in the Qur'an, verse 33:59 (sura Al-Ahzab)

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their [jalabib] over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The word jilbab is also found in some hadith (oral traditions later recorded). One such hadith follows:

Narrated Umm Atiyya: We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and screened women to the religious gatherings and invocation of the Muslims on the two Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from the musalla. A woman asked, "O Messenger of Allah! What about one who does not have a jilbab?". He said, "Let her borrow the jilbab of her companion". (Sahih Bukhari, Book 8, #347)
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Protected_Diamond
04-15-2006, 04:53 PM
:sl:

Alhamdulilah! Jazahka Allah kahir for sharing! :)

:w:
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 06:09 PM
Was that ayâ intended for the situation of the early Believers, when they were being harassed and appearing as a respectable woman might save a woman grief or rape or death? That is how I understood that verse.
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Maimunah
04-15-2006, 06:25 PM
salaam
jazakaallah khayr
alhamdulilaah am wearin it:)
wasalaam
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
Was that ayâ intended for the situation of the early Believers, when they were being harassed and appearing as a respectable woman might save a woman grief or rape or death? That is how I understood that verse.
no answer to this in 17 minutes? :eek:


anyway the pertaining hijaab was made for all women and for all times. Men dont change wiv time, trust me! The prophet (saws) made it clear that all women must wear it.

Volume 7, Book 65, Number 375:
Narrated Anas:

I know (about) the Hijab (the order of veiling of women) more than anybody else. Ubai bin Ka'b used to ask me about it. Allah's Apostle became the bridegroom of Zainab bint Jahsh whom he married at Medina. After the sun had risen high in the sky, the Prophet invited the people to a meal. Allah's Apostle remained sitting and some people remained sitting with him after the other guests had left. Then Allah's Apostle got up and went away, and I too, followed him till he reached the door of 'Aisha's room. Then he thought that the people must have left the place by then, so he returned and I also returned with him. Behold, the people were still sitting at their places. So he went back again for the second time, and I went along with him too. When we reached the door of 'Aisha's room, he returned and I also returned with him to see that the people had left. Thereupon the Prophet hung a curtain between me and him and the Verse regarding the order for (veiling of women) Hijab was revealed.


sahih bukhari!



this clearly shows women must veil themselves properly in front of non-mahrams :)

:sl:
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
this clearly shows women must veil themselves properly in front of non-mahrams :):sl:
Peace, Abd Majid.

No, it doesn't. It says that the Prophet's wives are to be left alone. Sûra 33: 53:
O Believers, enter not the dwellings of the Prophet, unless invited... And when you ask of his wives anything, ask from behind a hijab. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts.
At the time, Muhammad's wives lived in the masjid around the main courtyard.

Fadwa el Guindi writes in Veil (p. 154),
The Sura (33:53) is ultimately about privacy of the Prophet's home and family and the special status of his wives in two ways - as Prophet's wives and as leaders with access to Islamic information and wisdom who are increasingly sought by community members. There was need to protect women's right to privacy by regulating the flow of visitors and the comportment of the men who entered upon the women's quarters. It is not about women's clothing. Men entering the wives' quarters are required to ask permission or only enter when invited and, even then, to talk to the Prophet's wives from behind a partition or curtain. The non-ordinary statys of the Prophet's wives is evident in the passage:
O wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women (Sura 33:31)
Therefore your conclusions are not correct about either the Verse of the Veil (33:53) or about what Anas was saying in that hadith - you are reading an interpretation that inserts conclusions about the meanings, skewing the reading. "I know more about the hijab" has the modern commentator's words "(the order of veiling of women)" added in, but they are a conclusion and not part of the hadith itself.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 07:23 PM
^ are you denying jilbab is fard upon you?
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raniya
04-15-2006, 08:32 PM
When you live in a western society and living in a area where you are unlikey to find muslim brothers or sisters and u wear the full hijab and jilbab isnt it more likey that u are looked at and spoken of and are a target rather than when u are decently covered, with ur hijab and body fully covered??
Reply

NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
^ are you denying jilbab is fard upon you?
Yes. I quote el Guindi again for her precise analysis of 33:59 (p.139), the verse about the jilbâb, the loose dress of Abyssinian origin:
O Prophet, tell your wives, daughters and believing women to put on their jilbabs so that they are recognised and thus not harmed.
Jilbab refers to a long loose shirtdress. (...) This passage refers to women directly connected to the Prophet (wives and daughters) in order to distinguish their status, and it extends the enjoinder of wearing al-jilbab to all believing Muslim women. (...) In the context of the early Islamic community I contend that the intent was to mark group identity (the community of believers), to achieve social distance for the Prophet's Wives and to project an image of respect to avert harassment.

(...)The two dress parts mentioned for women are khimar (the head veil) and jilbab (a long gown), which had not been newly introduced by Islam but were likely already to be part of the wardrobe of the time. Various forms of jilbab for men and women are items of Arab dress. Islam attached specific and characteristic meaning to their use, pertaining to privacy, respect and status.
The ayât about dress considers that which is the normal dress of the day and age of Muhammad and speaks to how the Believers wear those clothes. I don't think God wants me in a headcloth to protect me from the sun and a loose dress to keep me cool - I live in the semi-frozen wasteland of New England. I think rather that the verses are rather:
  1. Specific to the clothing of one's climate and culture - I am not an Arab! It is not the 6th century of the Common Era! I do not live in the desert!
  2. May regard specific persons (i.e. the Wives of the Prophet, who were a special class of person in history) or specific periods (when Believing women were being harassed and so were told to dress like powerful women, not slaves).
  3. When applicable to all times and place, are intended to convey content and not specific sartorial rules.
So yes, I do not agree it is fard in the sense that I must wear a loose shirt-dress, plus this aya is about a specific situation, time and place.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 09:10 PM
^

The Qur'an - An-Nur 24:30

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do.



"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..."

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests..."

"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts, and display not their ornaments, except those which are outside; and let them pull their kerchiefs over their bosoms..."

-[24:31]


what you make outta dat?
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
what you make outta dat?
I will quote from my post here:
Originally Posted by nurofislam
The Holy Qur'an says: "Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and protect their private parts. That will make for greater purity for them. Verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And tell the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not to display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof and to draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Holy Qur'an, 24:30-31)
  1. A woman should not show her beauty or adornments except what appears by uncontrolled factors such as the wind blowing her clothes.
  2. The head covers should be drawn so as to cover the hair, the neck and the bosom.
I disagree with your interpretation of the words. What is actually said? That translation - which is comparatively close to the Arabic - says the following:
  • men and women should both cover their private parts
  • women should cover their jayb (pl. juyûb), or cleavage, with their khimar.
Now, in these days and times, it is understood that this orders believing women to wear a head-veil, which is what a khimar was in ancient times. The khimar was worn by both women and by men; it was an outer garment worn to protect the head from the hot sun.

This verse does not order the Believers to wear khimar; it orders us to cover our jayb - with the commonly-worn piece of clothing of the day, a large piece of cloth to protect the head from the sun. If we are not wearing a khimar, we can cover the jayb with something else.

The issue here, for men and women alike, is modesty, and the words of the Qur'ân indicate that for women, the breasts are also to be covered in public, just like the genitals are.
Originally Posted by nurofislam
Often forgotten is the fact that modern Western dress is a new invention. Looking at the clothing of women as recently as seventy years ago, we see clothing similar to hijab. These active and hard-working women of the West were not inhibited by their clothing which consisted of long, full dresses and various types of head covering.
I disagree again. Ask my grandmother about trying to work while dressed in those outfits - this is why working women adopted jeans and pants and the like, because traditional clothing was impractical, designed to highlight their sexual attractiveness rather than enabling work and very, very uncomfortable.
Originally Posted by nurofislam
Muslim women who wear hijab do not find it impractical or interfering with their activities in all levels and walks of life. Hijab is not merely a covering dress but more importantly, it is behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public. Dress is only one facet of the total being.
I agree! Modesty (rather than the limiting term hijab, which is not a Qur'ânic term for modesty but for a sheet or curtain) is about dress and action - and is for both sexes. I choose not to cover my head, but I am a respectful person who dresses modestly. I wear jeans, because they are plain, loose, practical and not sexualised - they are plain clothing, tough, cheap and egalitarian. I speak with respect to others and I do not treat others as sexual objects, nor do I present myself as one. This is the heart of the commandment to modesty.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
I will quote from my post here:I disagree with your interpretation of the words. What is actually said? That translation - which is comparatively close to the Arabic - says the following:
  • men and women should both cover their private parts
  • women should cover their jayb (pl. juyûb), or cleavage, with their khimar.
Now, in these days and times, it is understood that this orders believing women to wear a head-veil, which is what a khimar was in ancient times. The khimar was worn by both women and by men; it was an outer garment worn to protect the head from the hot sun.

This verse does not order the Believers to wear khimar; it orders us to cover our jayb - with the commonly-worn piece of clothing of the day, a large piece of cloth to protect the head from the sun. If we are not wearing a khimar, we can cover the jayb with something else.

The issue here, for men and women alike, is modesty, and the words of the Qur'ân indicate that for women, the breasts are also to be covered in public, just like the genitals are.I disagree again. Ask my grandmother about trying to work while dressed in those outfits - this is why working women adopted jeans and pants and the like, because traditional clothing was impractical, designed to highlight their sexual attractiveness rather than enabling work and very, very uncomfortable.I agree! Modesty (rather than the limiting term hijab, which is not a Qur'ânic term for modesty but for a sheet or curtain) is about dress and action - and is for both sexes. I choose not to cover my head, but I am a respectful person who dresses modestly. I wear jeans, because they are plain, loose, practical and not sexualised - they are plain clothing, tough, cheap and egalitarian. I speak with respect to others and I do not treat others as sexual objects, nor do I present myself as one. This is the heart of the commandment to modesty.
i lost you.... :heated:

sis the hijaab is an essential part of faith. Covering up completes HALF YOUR IMAN!
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
i lost you.... :heated: sis the hijaab is an essential part of faith. Covering up completes HALF YOUR IMAN!
Wait, I wrote a whole discussion about the issue, and all you can respond with is that I am giving up half of my faith by disagreeing with you? That's not useful, that's just rhetoric.

You can't just argue, "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" when someone writes a thoughtful post and expect them to take you seriously! I raise serious issues here, and all you can say is that "wearing the hijaab (sic) (...) completes HALF [MY] IMAN!"

Nuh-uh.
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
i lost you.... :heated:

sis the hijaab is an essential part of faith. Covering up completes HALF YOUR IMAN!
Also, if my faith is based upon wearing Magical Garments (tm) like the Mormon "magical underwear", there is a bigger issue at hand here. Faith is about belief and practice, not Special Magic Outfits (tm).
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- Qatada -
04-15-2006, 09:34 PM
:salamext:


Brother Abd'Majid, if they wanted to follow the sunnah - they could easily do it. For some reason, whenever the mentioning of the ayat:

Qur'an 4:59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

80. He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).



Most don't respond. And if you were to ask how people perform salaah without the sunnah, people won't respond either. So its upto them if they want to learn, or choose their desires.


Allaahu a'lam.


:wasalamex
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-15-2006, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
Also, if my faith is based upon wearing Magical Garments (tm) like the Mormon "magical underwear", there is a bigger issue at hand here. Faith is about belief and practice, not Special Magic Outfits (tm).
Astagfirullah :offended: :hiding: :hiding:

im sry. clearly i dont hav enough knowledge on this issue.

:sl:
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
im sry. clearly i dont hav enough knowledge on this issue.
I'm not sure why you are offended, my point was that you offended me by not responding to anything I said except to repeat the opinion you believe - and now admit you don't have the tools to discuss.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but if you want to quote scripture at me and then I answer your concerns, you can't just ignore my response. I mean, you can, but it's obnoxious.

Whatever. If anyone wants to discuss this issue, I'm genuinely interested. After all, the subject is interesting and complex.

Maybe someone female who has dealt with these issues in her daily life might want to chime in. I reckon every single Muslima has an opinion on the subject, one way or another, and their own interpretation of what things mean.
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raniya
04-16-2006, 01:55 PM
no one has even answered my question or had any comment on it...i was asking....will u not be more of a target when u were the jilbab in an environment where there arent many muslims?? can u not cover urself but not wear the actual jailbab???
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-16-2006, 02:07 PM
does anyone kno where the hadith where it saws that rasullulah saws mentioned that:

any woman who doesnt cover up and shows off her body figure wont come within 500 years of the scent of jannah.

i will really appreciate it if someone can giv the source.

:sl:
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Sunflower
04-16-2006, 02:10 PM
Thx for sharing that with us i will use it to the best of my knowledge!
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-16-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah 4eva
Thx for sharing that with us i will use it to the best of my knowledge!
but i dont even hav a sourcing for it :?
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S_87
04-16-2006, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by raniya
no one has even answered my question or had any comment on it...i was asking....will u not be more of a target when u were the jilbab in an environment where there arent many muslims?? can u not cover urself but not wear the actual jailbab???
:sl:

to sister nahid ill answer your questions .just give me time. im busy atm.

jilbab is prescribed so that we are recognised as muslim women. so being in non muslim society doesnt make a difference :)
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- Qatada -
04-16-2006, 02:20 PM
:salamext:

It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“There are two types of the people of Hell that I have not seen yet: men with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they strike the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, walking with an enticing gait, with something on their heads that looks like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will never enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.” (Narrated by Ahmad and by Muslim in al-Saheeh)

explanation of the hadith:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=47017&dgn=4


:wasalamex
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-16-2006, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:

It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“There are two types of the people of Hell that I have not seen yet: men with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they strike the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, walking with an enticing gait, with something on their heads that looks like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will never enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.” (Narrated by Ahmad and by Muslim in al-Saheeh)

explanation of the hadith:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=47017&dgn=4


:wasalamex

THANK YOU SO MUCH AKHEE!!! JAZAKALLAH KHAIR, BARAKALLAH FEEKUM!!

Wel narvy, there u hav it!
Fear Allah if you believe the above!!!

:sl:
Reply

S_87
04-16-2006, 02:39 PM
:sl:

I disagree with your interpretation of the words. What is actually said? That translation - which is comparatively close to the Arabic - says the following:
men and women should both cover their private parts
and onwards

no matter how its interpreted we need to look at what the women in the time of muhammed :arabic5: did when the verse was revealed. that in itself explains the ayah for us as they understood and had better understaning than us.


I disagree again. Ask my grandmother about trying to work while dressed in those outfits - this is why working women adopted jeans and pants and the like,
its v easy...
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------
04-16-2006, 02:49 PM
Erm....Sfe! :)
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NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by amani
no matter how its interpreted we need to look at what the women in the time of muhammed :arabic5: did when the verse was revealed. that in itself explains the ayah for us as they understood and had better understaning than us. its v easy...
That's exactly what I did: I examined how people lived in that time and to what the verses pertain. It is an innovation to claim that the verses claim what they do not. This is a modern notion.

In ancient times, one held off pride and jealousy of others by covering one's head and face the more power a person was displaying in public. Thus it is that Muhammad came to Khadija after the Angel spoke to him and commanded him to recite and he asked her to cover him with her garment.

So also did famous men cover their heads and their faces with the lithma - the person who does this is al-mutalitthim(a) - in ancient times. Men also could use the tails of the 3imama or of the kufiyya, and based on laws passed in the tenth century of the common era, women also wore 3imamāt.

In fact, often slave or "client" men and women would be punished for covering up beyond the minimum coverage of the saw'āt and (for women) of the jayb. It is said that 3Umar ibn al-Khattāb, the second Khalîfa, saw a slave girl in qina' (a facemask) and beat her, saying, "Are you trying to imitate a free woman?" (Abû 3Abd-al-Lāh al-3Abdarî ibn al-Hajj, Al-Madkhal.)

Poor but free people were also banned from covering the face because they were without power; in a pinch, they might use their al-manādil "handkerchiefs" - the Druze maintain this custom for holy men and women, or 3Uqqālāt.

However, al-muqanna'āt were only those in Arab society who had power. Their veiling of head and face was to ward off jealousy and danger from those who might recognise them, give them the evil eye.

Sahîh al-Bukharî, 5360 and Abû Dawûd 3561 speak of the Prophet as mutaqanni'an "wearing the qina'"; Bukharî also reports in 934 that the Prophet entered into 3A'isha's quarters while covering his face with his garment. In both cases, Abû Bakr was present.

Veiling shows social power - in ancient (and modern) Arabia, you veil to provide yourself with privacy from jealousy or even to hide one's face at the bazaar during a "ceasefire" so that others wouldn't be tempted to strike at a tempting target. Some men were called Dhu Khimār "Veiled One", including Al-Aswas al-3Ansî (3Ablaha ibn Ka3b) and 3Awf ibn ar-Rabî' ibn dhî r-Ramahayn.

Consider what is said of 3A'isha bint Abî Bakr: that when she went to rally her people to fight 3Alî ibn Abî Tālib, she went to the masjid and covered herself before speaking. She was not veiled before, but only when she was going to speak, making her a public figure. It was not because she was a woman and men should not look at women, but because she was a person of power, and they covered themselves out of custom.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:

It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“There are two types of the people of Hell that I have not seen yet: men with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they strike the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, walking with an enticing gait, with something on their heads that looks like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will never enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.” (Narrated by Ahmad and by Muslim in al-Saheeh)

explanation of the hadith:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=47017&dgn=4


:wasalamex
NAHID READ THIS!!!
Reply

NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
NAHID READ THIS!!!
Nahid read that.

I am not a woman walking with an enticing gait, wearing see-through clothing.

I am a modest person. And I don't do the things the hadith condemns, do I? I alread said that. I do as the Qur'ân asks: I cover as-saw'a and cover jaybî "my cleavage". Just because I do it with clothing best suited for my culture and society doesn't make me hellbent. I also don't ride camels around the city but rather the metro and buses and I use flush toilets. Should I be condemned for this? What about my toothbrush? Is that forbidden as well? Need I use sticks and horse urine because that is what was the custom of 6th century Arabia?

I see nothing that forbids me from wearing modest western clothing. I see nothing condemning anything.

Is there something else I should learn from that Hadith?
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Rabi'ya
04-16-2006, 05:41 PM
good thread mashAllah

an excellent read

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

*noor
04-16-2006, 05:43 PM
asalamu alaikum
it is necessary to cover ourselves- both men and women.
women can only show hands and face.
men have to covr from knees to navel
its different because of both the phsiological and psychological ways that Allah has created us.
Reply

S_87
04-16-2006, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That's exactly what I did: I examined how people lived in that time and to what the verses pertain. It is an innovation to claim that the verses claim what they do not. This is a modern notion.

.
:sl:

i want proof for what youve said please specially with regards to the following

Poor but free people were also banned from covering the face because they were without power
as it sure contradicts such as


Al-Bukhaari (324) and Muslim (890) narrated that Umm ‘Atiyyah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded us to bring them (women) out on (Eid) al-Fitr and (Eid) al-Adha, and to bring out adolescent girls, menstruating women and virgins, but the menstruating women were to stay away from the prayer, but were to witness goodness and the gathering of the Muslims. I said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what if one of us does not have a jilbaab?” He said: “Let her sister lend her a jilbab.”

i mean, a woman was told to come with a jilbab, rich or poor!

+ check this e-book out. it explains everything Alhumdulillah
http://www.al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/46.pdf
Reply

NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by nurofislam
asalamu alaikum
it is necessary to cover ourselves- both men and women.
women can only show hands and face.
men have to covr from knees to navel
its different because of both the phsiological and psychological ways that Allah has created us.
You have no proof or discussion here, just statements of your personal belief. What do you mean by "its different because of both the phsiological and psychological ways that Allah has created us", and how do you respond to my comments except by what you think is the custom?

God orders us to commit to the greater jihad, each one of us, and that means not taking for granted but learning for ourselves. There is no priesthood in Islam; we must each learn and think.
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NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by amani
i want proof for what youve said please specially with regards to the following as it sure contradicts such as
Al-Bukhaari (324) and Muslim (890) narrated that Umm ‘Atiyyah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded us to bring them (women) out on (Eid) al-Fitr and (Eid) al-Adha, and to bring out adolescent girls, menstruating women and virgins, but the menstruating women were to stay away from the prayer, but were to witness goodness and the gathering of the Muslims. I said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what if one of us does not have a jilbaab?” He said: “Let her sister lend her a jilbab.”
i mean, a woman was told to come with a jilbab, rich or poor!
So poor women have no jilâbab. Great. How does that match up with what I said? Perfectly. The Prophet's revelation was about the early time of the Muslims, when they were being oppressed and he wanted the women to be seen as powerful women. Thus they should wear jilâbab. It does not mean that in the modern world, we should wear a long shirtdress over our bodies. It was specific to a time and place, a particular situation, not for all eternity. Should I wear a jilbâb in Alaska? What about in Louisiana? What about in New England? It's not reasonable.
Originally Posted by amani
+ check this e-book out. it explains everything Alhumdulillah
http://www.al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/46.pdf
That document repeats that the Prophet wanted the women Believers to pass as wealthy women so they would not be harassed. This would be specific to a time and place, because it is not applicable to the cultures of today.

Second, it argues that I must also veil my face and cover my hands because I might tempt a man, which is ridiculous. If men can't control themselves, they should wear blinders, not make all women wrap themselves in swaddling cloths.
Reply

S_87
04-16-2006, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
So poor women have no jilâbab. Great. How does that match up with what I said? Perfectly. The Prophet's revelation was about the early time of the Muslims, when they were being oppressed and he wanted the women to be seen as powerful women. Thus they should wear jilâbab. It does not mean that in the modern world, we should wear a long shirtdress over our bodies. It was specific to a time and place, a particular situation, not for all eternity. Should I wear a jilbâb in Alaska? What about in Louisiana? What about in New England? It's not reasonable.That document repeats that the Prophet wanted the women Believers to pass as wealthy women so they would not be harassed. This would be specific to a time and place, because it is not applicable to the cultures of today.

Second, it argues that I must also veil my face and cover my hands because I might tempt a man, which is ridiculous. If men can't control themselves, they should wear blinders, not make all women wrap themselves in swaddling cloths.
:sl:

the Quraan is here as a guidance for all mankind. all time all place whether youre in the middle of a desert or in timbuktu. in year 10ah or in year 2000ah. the Qurans ruling does not change with time. of course its appicable in todays soceity. infact its just as needed.
we wear it so we are recognised as muslim women.
Reply

NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by amani
the Quraan is here as a guidance for all mankind. all time all place whether youre in the middle of a desert or in timbuktu. in year 10ah or in year 2000ah. the Qurans ruling does not change with time. of course its appicable in todays soceity.
The Qur'ân may be for all time, but you can't be literalist about some verses and not about others. And many verses require explanation and elucidation to understand.

My argument is not that we don't have to do what the verses say, but that the correct understanding is not that we have to wear the clothing of 6th century Arabia. The correct understanding is what the verses say. E.g., an-Nûr, 30-1: "tell the believing men to cover their saw'ât & tell your daughters, wives and the believing women to cover their saw'ât and use their khimâr when outside to cover their juyûb."
  • Does this mean "wear the khimar"? No. It was what everyone wore in that climate, men and women. It means to use clothing that covers al-juyûb.
  • Do believers have to wear a loincloth now because that is what the first believers wore? No. They wear underwear appropriate to our day and age.
  • Do men and women wear khimar and jilbâb now because that is what the first believers wore? No. They wear clothing appropriate to their day and age.
  • Do believers have to cover their saw'ât? Yes. It is clearly stated that believers - male and female - must be modest with their sight and they must cover their genitals.
  • Do believing women have to cover their jaybs? Yes. This originally meant you wrap your outerwear over your breasts; clothing was simple and untailored in those days. Nowadays, we should find an appropriate way to do the same.
Originally Posted by amani
infact its just as needed. we wear it so we are recognised as muslim women.
I think there are better ways for us to be recognised as Muslimât than wearing ancient clothing. Early Muslims, men and women, dressed in the same clothing as those around them, but wore it in a distinctive way. God wants us to eschew class distinctions: share your clothing with those who cannot afford modesty.

We can be believers and stand out without having to wear silly hats.
Reply

renak
04-16-2006, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
There is no priesthood in Islam; we must each learn and think.

This nicely sums up what I believe to be true about Islam, and how my beliefs affect my decision to forgo hijab. My decision to adhere to modern dress is based upon the research I've done within Islamic texts. The fact that I do not feel compelled to wear hijab is in no way meant to be a direct insult to Islam or Islamic people.

As NahidSarvy stated above, the fact that Islam does not have a priesthood, should compel each of us to conduct our own research and derive our own opinions. This is one of the beautiful elements of Islam.
Reply

Malaikah
04-17-2006, 04:46 AM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
I think there are better ways for us to be recognised as Muslimât than wearing ancient clothing. Early Muslims, men and women, dressed in the same clothing as those around them, but wore it in a distinctive way. God wants us to eschew class distinctions: share your clothing with those who cannot afford modesty.

We can be believers and stand out without having to wear silly hats.
:sl:

you correct in one way, that we dont have to wear the clothes worn by women of the prophets time. BUT we do have to cover our awra and the womens awra is everything excluding the face and hands (some may argue that the feet are also exluded while some beleive the whole body is awra). its doesnt matter if you wear a paper bag, as long as it covers you up. i dont know why you are arguing about the stlye of clothes since i really doubt any women in the prophets time wore anything remotely similar to the type of hijab i, and many muslims my age, wear.
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NahidSarvy
04-17-2006, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
you correct in one way, that we dont have to wear the clothes worn by women of the prophets time. BUT we do have to cover our awra and the womens awra is everything excluding the face and hands (some may argue that the feet are also exluded bhile some beleive the whole body is awra). its doesnt matter if you wear a paper bag, as long as it covers you up. i dont know why you are arguing about the stlye of clothes since i really doubt any women in the prophets time wore anything remotely similar to the type of hijab i, and many muslims my age, wear.
ʕAwra, ʕawra, ʕawra! Forgive me, sister, but this word is a curse in my ears.

ʕAwra is constantly used to enforce fear of our bodies, to make everything except our face or feet or even only our eyes forbidden. But this word doesn't mean anything of the sort!

In the Qur'ān, the word ʕawra is used in 33:13 and in the plural (ʕawrāt) in 24:31 and 24:58. Its definition is "weak point, spot or moment". It is used as a euphemism for the pudendum in one of those verses, but it is not a word meaning "things what we must cover up because we are born female" - or "blemish", which is how I see it explained in English all too often. This is the word I always hear - "cover your ʕawrāt!"

So how does God's book speak of ʕawrāt? (I put eunuchs in quotations in the following because the term is not the same as English, meaning men who are not interested in women for sex, either asexual or homosexual.)

Sūratu n-Nūr, 31 -
...and male slaves or "eunuchs" or underage boys not yet sexually mature for contact with women's ʕawrāt in intercourse.
This does not mean your body, but your sawʕāt.

Sūratu n-Nūr, 58:
O believers, "eunuchs" and underage boys should not intrude upon your privacy on three occasions/times of day: before fajr prayer, when you are resting at noon and after ʕisha prayer. There are three ʕawrāt, outside of which interaction is not held against you or them...
This emphatically does not have anything to do with women's bodies.

Sūratu l-Ahzāb, 13:
...if a group of them ask the Prophet for leave, saying, "truly our homes are ʕawra," though they were not ʕawra, then their intent was to flee the battle.
In the ahādīth, there are additional uses of this word, and a common theme is men being prohibited from wearing a garment that exposes their ʕawra when they bend over or sit or cross their legs - it is used along with the term sawʕa when talking about teaching men how to pray and that they must wear something that does not show their "vulnerability".

Maybe "vulnerability that should be inviolate" is a better explanation of the meaning of this word.

All I know is that it is not used in the Qur'ān and ahādīth to mean our entire bodies except (insert choice of allowed areas: face, hands, eyes, nothing). It is used for the genital regions of both sexes, for time periods where you should not be disturbed and for homes in danger of being plundered. That doesn't include my hair, arms, feet, hands, or anything else not commanded by God to be covered, e.g. the sawʕa and the jayb.

If women are equal in Islam, why does the accident of our birth dictate a life circumscribed by living behind walls of fabric?

I respect muhajjaba, but I do not agree it is required or fard or even recommended. God wouldn't have said "cover your genitals and your cleavage" if the intent was to wrap us from head to toe in fabric.
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Malaikah
04-17-2006, 07:40 AM
:sl:

id like to know where you got your interpretations of these verses from and how on earth you managed to develop this opinion that pretty much no scholar has? the 4 madhabs all pretty much agree on the matter that hijab is fard and but i think they diff in terms of the extent of the covering up, with the most lenient being the hand and face. what makes you differ? Please provide a reliable source.
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NahidSarvy
04-17-2006, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
id like to know where you got your interpretations of these verses from and how on earth you managed to develop this opinion that pretty much no scholar has? the 4 madhabs all pretty much agree on the matter that hijab is fard and but i think they diff in terms of the extent of the covering up, with the most lenient being the hand and face. what makes you differ? Please provide a reliable source.
The reliable source: THE QUR'AN. I figured, hey, why not read it? Why not get books on learning Arabic and listen to what I was being told to do and then check up on what the Qur'ân actually says? After all, God commands the greater jihad, right?

My dictionaries and book and such have concordances: they list every time that a particular word is used in the Qur'ân. Some secondary sources I got - like el Guindi's Veil: Modesty, Privacy, Resistance - deal with the subject matter in a positive (as in highly respectful of women's use of the veil for political, social and religious reasons) but critical (as in scholarly analysis) manner.

I did this all because I got tired of being lectured by men and women. I did this because I was tired of being shoved into the airless basement with screaming children along with all the other women because we've been "unofficially" but thoroughly banned from the masjid proper. I did this because I was tired of coming to the Sister's Group at the masjid and having men telling me to "put my shoes downstairs because that's where women go". I got tired of watching people in mental ruts, repeating what some online "shaykh" or "imam" told them to do without understanding what they were being told.

I did it because God commands us to accept nothing uncritically, but to accept what we know is right. I want to know the right path, and if I disagree with the four madhâhab, then so be it. There were many madhâhab over time, and some had very different opinions of what it means to be a practicing Muslim.

I can give you a run-down of all the books on Islâm I have in my library, if you'd like, but it's a pretty large list and runs the gamut from Fiqhu s-Sunna, Citadel of the Muslim, as-Sulami's The First Sufi Women and The Epistle of Sâlim ibn Dhakwân and authors like Abou el Fadl, Asma Barlas and Amina Wadud.

As for my teachers, they have been an Ismaili professor of religion at Harvard University, an "Islamiyyin" Egyptian muhajjaba, a female Sunni PhD student from Nigeria, various MSA groups, my Huihui Mandarin tutor at Peking University, my college roomie... they run the gamut from what I would consider "highly conservative" (several munaqqabât) to pretty secular (my college roomie). I have also lived in Aceh Province (before the tsunami - about ten years ago) and, as I mentioned, in Northern China among Uyghurs and Huihui.

So that's my answer.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-17-2006, 11:56 AM
:sl:

So many scholors on this board, I had no idea.

12.This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed. Avoid asking questions that require a Scholar or Shaykh, as there is no one on the board qualified to answer your questions. Please use other knowledgeable means such as a scholar, Imam or knowledgeable person in your area or provide sources.

:w:

:threadclo
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