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Battle_4_Peace
04-15-2006, 05:54 PM
43 reasons from the Bible, why Jesus was not God

[01]. God is All Knowing, Jesus was not. [Mark 13:32, Matt 24:36, Joh 7:16].
[02]. God does not have a God? Jesus had a God. [John 20:17, Luke 11:2-4, Matt 26:36-39, Matthew 27:46].
[03]. God is All Powerful, Jesus was not. [John 5:19, John 5:30].
[04]. God does not worship anyone, Jesus worshiped. [Matthew 26:39, John, 17:3, Luke 5:16].
[05]. God is invisible, Jesus was visible. [John 1:18, John 5:37, John 4:24].
[06]. If something is greater than Jesus, Jesus cannot be God, God was greater. [John 14:28, Luke 18:19, John 8:42, Luke 22:42].
[07]. Jesus, commanded to worship GOD ALONE. [Luke 4:8, John 17:3].
[08]. God is Allmighty, Jesus could do nothing without God. [John 8:28 and 29, John 5:30, Acts 2:22, Matthew 12:28].
[09]. Jesus claimed that he was NOT God. [Mark 10:18].
[10]. God was not Created, Jesus was Created from the seed of David. [Romans 1:3].
[11]. God has no Ancestors, Jesus had. [Matthew 1:1].
[12]. God has no Gender, Jesus was a male. [Luke 2:21].
[13]. God has no Country of Origin, Jesus was born in Betlehem. [Matthew 2:1].
[14]. Jesus was a carpenter, God also? [Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55].
[15]. Jesus transported by a donkey, God also? [Matthew 21:5].
[16]. Jesus was very poor, God Allmighty also? [Matthew 8:20].
[17]. Does God pay tax? Jesus did. [Matthew 17:24-27].
[18]. Does God need the suport of Angels? Jesus did need it. [Luke 22:43].
[19]. Jesus was tempted by Evil, can God be tempted by Evil? [Luke 4:13].
[20]. God is the God of everyone, Jesus came only for the Jews. [Matthew 15:24].
[21]. God does not fear anything, Jesus feared the Jews. So did God fear the Jews? [John 11:53-54].
[22]. Jesus is called a SERVANT of GOD. How can a Servant be God himself? Servant of himself? [Matthew 12:18, Acts 4:27, Acts 3:13].
[23]. God does not live in temples build by human hands, Jesus did. [Acts 17:24].
[24]. God is self existent, Jesus was not. [John 6:57].
[25]. Jesus said, that he was sent by God. Was he sent by himself? [John 17:3].
[26]. Jesus was a human being, Is God also a human being? [Matthew 9:8].
[27]. Jesus was the son of man, can God be the son of man? How can Jesus be God, if he is the son of man? [Matthew 9:6].
[28]. Does God have a Father? Jesus had a father, according to the Bible. [1 John 1:3].
[29]. Can God die? Jesus was killed according to the Bible, can a part of God die? [Romans 5:10].
[30]. God is not a human, Jesus was a human being. [1 Samuel 15:29, Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9].
[31]. God does not change, from God to human, so how can Jesus be God? [Malachi 3:6].
[32]. Jesus feared God, if he was God, did he feared himself? [Isaiah 11:1-3].
[33]. If Jesus was the son of man, then we also cannot trust him or seek help by him according to [Psalms 146:5].
[34]. God never gets tired and he never sleeps, Jesus did. [Isaiah 40:28, Mark 4:37].
[35]. How can Jesus be God, if non is like unto God? If he is not like unto God, he cannot be God. [Deuteronomy 33:6, Isaiah 46:9].
[36]. How can Jesus be God, If God is not human and never can come on earth? [1 Kings 8:27, Numbers 23:19, Job 9:32].
[37]. Jesus is called a prophet of God, how can God be his own prophet? [Matthew 21:11, John 7:40, John 6:14, John 4:19, John 9:17].
[38]. Jesus is called son of man, is God a son of man? [Mark 10:45, Matthew 26:64].
[39]. Jesus is called a teacher, send by God. Did he send himself to the earth? [John 3:2].
[40]. Jesus was send by a Greater Power, can something be Greater in Power than God? [John 13:16, John 4:34, John 11:42, John 17:8].
[41]. Jesus could do nothing, he was powerless. How can someone who is powerless be God? [John 5:30, Luke 22:43, Matthew 12:28].
[42]. God said that there is no other God than Him, and Jesus never said he was God. [Isaiah 45:5].
[43]. Jesus cried to his God ans asked him to safe from the dead, so he could not safe himself, how can he safe us? [Hebrews 5:7].


Conclusion
Would you take such a man, as God? Would you worship Jesus, or the one Jesus worshiped? The early Christian sects like Ebonites, Corinthians, Basilidians, Capocratians, and Hypisistarians didn't know anything about the Trinity, they believed in ONE Supreme God, like the Muslims today. If the Bible teaches Trinity, they would surely know it. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus as a prophet of God and they were against the Trinity. Jesus is never called God, in the New Testament, so even the writers of the Bible didn't believed that he was God. The Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and the majority of today's Anglican Bishops, does not believe that Jesus was God, they believe in ONE God, not in three parts. They also don't accept the fact, that Jesus was killed on a cross, but they say that he was crusified on a tree. Look at this groups, so many confusions.

I Corinthians 14:33. God is not the author of confusion.

Thousands of years long, prophets came and prophets went, not one of them teached anything about the Trinity, not even Jesus. Why did Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias and Justin Martyr not mention the trinity in the 1200 pages text they left us? How can you say Jesus was God? Jesus was born of a women, a baby who cried and came from the private parts of a WOMEN! Why do you insult God in such a manner? Its a shame, how can the Allmighty be so helpless and weak? This are all lies about God, none is worthy of worship exept God and Mohammad is His messenger. Look at what Allah says about their lies.


Koran 5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no more that a Messenger, many were Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a believing woman. They both used to eat food. Look at how We make the proofs and evidences clear to them, yet look at how they are deluded away.
Koran 3:59. 'Verily, the likeness of Jesus before God is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, 'Be!' and he was'.
Koran 5:72. Indeed they reject the truth who say 'God is Christ the son of Mary'. For indeed Christ said worship God, who is my God and your God.

:w:
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Maimunah
04-15-2006, 05:59 PM
salaam
mashaallah great post
allah is great free is he from having a son:)
lets hope that the christians agree with u
wasalaam
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al-fateh
04-15-2006, 06:32 PM
thanx for the info bro
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Arch_warrior
04-15-2006, 09:47 PM
I have had a good off the bible , the old testament and new testeman differ so much!!! when compatrng the context of the writing!!! the old testemant devotes to god wile the new one deovotes to jesus but still devotes to god , no wonder why christians cant make up their mind about who their god is!
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Arch_warrior
04-15-2006, 09:48 PM
* A good read of the bible * sorry it was a typo
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Battle_4_Peace
04-15-2006, 10:08 PM
:sl:

I have debated many Christians Alhamdolillah and they cannot reject those statements, i have given proofs from their own book. Nowhere did Jezus, peace be upon him, say, 'I am God' or 'Worship me' the word Trinity does not exist in the complete bible. May Allah guide them and us, to the straight path. Ameen.

:w:
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extinction
04-15-2006, 10:14 PM
wheres brother hey goo or roo lol the dynamic duo..I havent seen them around ....I want to see what they say about this..
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NahidSarvy
04-15-2006, 10:26 PM
I know this is a polemic piece, but I hafta speak up. Some of these are clear misunderstandings of Christianity, and while I am not a Christian, we need to be fair in our assessments.
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
[27]. Jesus was the son of man, can God be the son of man? How can Jesus be God, if he is the son of man? [Matthew 9:6].
The correct translation is "Child of Humanity", and it has a theological, not literal, meaning. It isn't meant literally.
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
[38]. Jesus is called son of man, is God a son of man? [Mark 10:45, Matthew 26:64].
Um, same thing.
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
Jesus was born of a women, a baby who cried and came from the private parts of a WOMEN! Why do you insult God in such a manner?
What is wrong with the private parts of a woman? That is where human beings come from.

Again, I understand this is a polemic, intended to convince people that Christianity is dumb, but you don't understand the subtleties and sophistication of the Christian argument. The notion that God took human form, was born and lived as a human & died as one after speaking as a teacher is apparently very attractive. He lived a life of suffering and poverty; in fact, he was sympathetic to those who are rejected by society, namely the poor, the sick, the needy, the "sinners" and the outsiders/foreigners.

And the notion of the Trinity is not that God isn't one, or else it would be shirk.

Personally, I see in Jesus' teachings the words of a rabbi and prophet, especially when one reads the critical analyses done and focusses on, e.g., the Sayings Gospel or Quelle; there is nothing in these teachings that claims divinity, but rather is a testament to wisdom taught through pithy statements and parables.

Anyway, just a few little criticisms.

Peace.
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azim
04-15-2006, 10:30 PM
The correct translation is "Child of Humanity", and it has a theological, not literal, meaning. It isn't meant literally.Um, same thing.What is wrong with the private parts of a woman? That is where human beings come from.
I believe the statements regarding 'Son of Man' can be linked to OT verses which quite directly state "God is not man, nor the son of man", I'll try and find the verse reference if anyone want's it.
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Battle_4_Peace
04-15-2006, 10:38 PM
:sl:

The correct translation is "Child of Humanity", and it has a theological, not literal, meaning. It isn't meant literally.
Even if they say, 'Child of Humanity' is God child of humanity? It is literally, because Jesus was born of a women, and she is a human being. Is Jesus born of a human or not? If you believe that he was God, then you say God is born of human beings. That's why they say that Maria is the mother of God, Astagfirullah! They worship her in the churches, and they ask her for for forgivenis, and bow to her idol, this is indeed great Kufr.

What is wrong with the private parts of a woman? That is where human beings come from.
Human beings yes, not God. God is pure and faaaaaaaaaar away from this dirty creation. Getting children is something for dogs, monkeys, human beings and other creatures, God is clean and not like this. Imagine, God Almighty, being born as a baby, so helpless, he urinates and can't even speak. Are this the qualities of an Almighty God? Come on, let them be honest. :)

:w:
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NahidSarvy
04-16-2006, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
If you believe that he was God, then you say God is born of human beings. That's why they say that Maria is the mother of God, Astagfirullah! They worship her in the churches, and they ask her for for forgivenis, and bow to her idol, this is indeed great Kufr.
C'mon, I went to Catholic school; I might think Catholics have their heads on backwards, but they do not commit shirk. Catholics do not ask Miryam Umm Isa for forgiveness. They do not bow to "her idol". They ask Miryam Umm Isa to ask her son for a favour on their behalf. She is - and this is stressed highly in class (boy, was Religion class boring!) - only like a saint, and they ask her to intercede on their behalf because she is Isa's mother.

This may seem strange to us - as it did me - but Catholics are staunch monotheists.
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
Human beings yes, not God. God is pure and faaaaaaaaaar away from this dirty creation. Getting children is something for dogs, monkeys, human beings and other creatures, God is clean and not like this. Imagine, God Almighty, being born as a baby, so helpless, he urinates and can't even speak. Are this the qualities of an Almighty God? Come on, let them be honest. :)
First, this world is not "dirty" - God made it.

Second, while I agree that it is hard to understand Christian theology, I had many long years of learning this stuff and the concept of a saviour, a holy man, an Anointed One (Greek Christos, Hebrew/Aramaic Mashi7 > "Messiah") who would come from the divinely-chosen family line of King Dawud and save the Chosen People was an ancient idea.

It was only natural that when Prophet Isa ibn Miryam came, born of the House of Dawud, and preached as a holy man spiritual renewal that people imagined he would rise up as king and free Israel from the Romans. When he didn't, but instead taught that the kingdom of God was all around us, he was misunderstood.

The evolution of his godhood was an extension of his death and the stories of his return. God's taking shape in human form - yes, from birth as gross baby through teen years and into adulthood - was an extension of God's grace.

I don't agree, of course, that he was God. But it's not as crazy as it seems from your perspective. There's a natural sense to the religion, or else people wouldn't have converted!
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*noor
04-16-2006, 02:26 AM
Islam means to worship more than just Allah and Catholics do just that. They believe that God is three and worship Jesus, God, and Holy Spirit. That is definitely shirk.
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Battle_4_Peace
04-16-2006, 02:38 PM
C'mon, I went to Catholic school; I might think Catholics have their heads on backwards, but they do not commit shirk. Catholics do not ask Miryam Umm Isa for forgiveness. They do not bow to "her idol". They ask Miryam Umm Isa to ask her son for a favour on their behalf. She is - and this is stressed highly in class (boy, was Religion class boring!) - only like a saint, and they ask her to intercede on their behalf because she is Isa's mother. This may seem strange to us - as it did me - but Catholics are staunch monotheists.
Which Catholic do you know, that does not bow for a statue? Is that Shirk or not?
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Muslim Soldier
04-16-2006, 02:45 PM
Very nice thank you
Don the christians have anything to say?
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-16-2006, 02:46 PM
as-salaam alaykum

I think some good prove that Jesus was not God...here link:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

wa-salaam alaykum
Reply

Alphaseed
04-16-2006, 07:53 PM
The Old Testament Testifies That Jesus Is God

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

4. Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.

5. Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD (Jehovah) and our God.

6. Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah… out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Thus the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.

The New Testament Proclaims That Jesus is God

1. According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood, namely the blood of Jesus.

3. Paul described Jesus as "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13; NIV has "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ").

4. Peter described Him as "God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Peter 1:1; NIV and TAB both have "our God and Savior Jesus Christ").

5. Our bodies are the temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet we know Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17).

6. The Book of Colossians strongly emphasizes the deity of Christ. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9; see also 1:19). According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus is not just a part of God, but all of God is resident in Him. If there were several persons in the Godhead, according to Colossians 2:9 they would all be resident in the bodily form of Jesus. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). Whatever we need from God we can find in Jesus Christ alone. (For further discussion of Colossians 2:9 and other proofs of Christ's deity in Colossians, see Chapter 9 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: ACTS TO REVELATION.)

We conclude that the New Testament testifies to the full deity of Jesus Christ.

God Was Manifest in the Flesh as Jesus

The statement that Jesus is God necessarily implies that God took on human flesh. This is in fact what the Bible says.

1. "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16; see verse 15 for further confirmation that God is the subject of verse 16). God was manifest (made visible) in flesh; God was justified (shown to be right) in the Spirit; God was seen of angels; God was believed on in the world; and God was received up into glory. How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

God is a Spirit without flesh and blood and invisible to man. In order to make Himself visible to man and in order to shed innocent blood for our sins, He had to put on flesh. (For more on the purposes of the Son, see Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Jesus is not another God or a part of God, but He is the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh. He is the Father; He is Jehovah who came in flesh to bridge the gap between man and God that man's sin had created. He put on flesh as a man puts on a coat.

Many verses of Scripture declare Jesus Christ to be the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh for the purpose of self-revelation and reconciliation.

3. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Corinthians 5:19).

4. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [spoken, revealed] him" (John 1:18).

5. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son… the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…" (Hebrew 1:1-3).

6. Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

7. He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20). As Abraham prophesied, probably without understanding the full meaning of his own words, "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8). God indeed provided a body for Himself: "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5).

8. Jesus was the builder of the house (God the Father and Creator) and also a son over his own house (Hebrews 3:3-6).

9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).

The Word

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." [10] In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure." [11] This thought is further brought out by verse 14, which says the incarnated Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, and by verse 18, which says that the Son has declared the Father.

In Greek philosophy, the Logos came to mean reason or wisdom as the controlling principle of the universe. In John's day, some Greek philosophers and Jewish theologians influenced by Greek thought (especially the Jewish thinker, Philo of Alexandria) regarded the Logos as an inferior, secondary deity or as an emanation from God in time. [12] Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role. John deliberately used their own terminology to refute these doctrines and to declare the truth. The Word was not inferior to God; it was God (John 1:1). The Word did not emanate from God over a period of time; it was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was none other than the Word, or God, revealed in flesh. Note also that the Greek word pros, translated "with" in verse 1, is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1. John 1:1 could include in its meanings, therefore, the following: "The Word pertained to God and the Word was God," or, "The Word belonged to God and was God."

Jesus Was God From the Beginning Of His Human Life

God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fulness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus' human life began.

1. Matthew 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." He was "God with us" even at his birth.

2. The angels worshiped Him at His birth (Hebrews 1:6), Simeon recognized the infant as the Christ (Luke 2:26), Anna saw the babe as the redeemer of Israel (Luke 2:38), and the wise men worshiped the young child (Matthew 2:11).

3. Micah 5:2 ascribed deity to the Messiah at His birth in Bethlehem, not just after His life in Nazareth or His baptism in Jordan.

4. Luke 1:35 explains why Jesus was God at the beginning of His human life. The angel told Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Jesus was born of a virgin, His conception being effected by the Holy Ghost. Because of this ("therefore"), He was the Son of God. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God because God, and not a man, caused His conception. God was literally His Father. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…" (John 3:16). To beget means to father, sire, procreate, or cause. Jesus was begotten by God in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Isaiah 7:14 also links the virgin conception with the recognition that the Son thus born would be God. In other words, at the moment of conception, God placed His divine nature in the seed of the woman. The child to be born received its life and the fatherly side of its nature from God at this time. From the mother's side it received the human nature of Mary; from the father's side (God, not Joseph) it received the nature of God. Jesus obtained His divine nature through the conception process; He did not become divine by some later act of God. The virgin birth of Jesus establishes His deity.

Some believe that Jesus received the fulness of God at some later time in His life, such as at His baptism. However, in light of the virgin birth and Luke 1:35 this cannot be so. Jesus received His nature of deity as well as the nature of humanity at conception. The descent of the Holy Ghost like a dove at the baptism of Jesus was not a baptism of the Holy Ghost; Jesus already had all the fulness of God within Him (Colossians 2:9). Rather, His baptism, among other things, occurred as a symbolic anointing for the beginning of His earthly ministry and as a confirmation to John the Baptist of His deity (John 1:32-34). (For more on the baptism of Jesus see Chapter 8 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: THE GOSPEL.)

The Mystery of Godliness

The fact that God became flesh is one of the most wonderful and yet one of the most incomprehensible things about God. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…" (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus is like no other man that ever has been or will be. He has two natures; He is fully God and fully man. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Most problems in people's minds concerning the Godhead come from this great mystery. They cannot understand the dual nature of Christ and cannot correctly separate his two roles. They cannot comprehend how God could take on the form of a baby and live among men.

It is true that we cannot comprehend fully how the miraculous conception - the union of God and man - took place in the womb of Mary, but we can accept it by faith. In fact, if we do not believe that Jesus is come in the flesh we have an antichrist spirit (II John 7), but if we do accept this doctrine of Christ we will have both the Father and the Son (II John 9). Both Father and Son are revealed in Christ (John 10:30; 14:6-11).

The mystery of God in flesh was a great stumbling block to the Jews. They never could understand how Jesus, being a man, could also be God (John 10:33). Because He claimed to be God they rejected Him and sought to kill Him (John 5:18; 10:33).

Even today, many Jews cannot accept Jesus for this reason. In a conversation, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi told us he could never accept Jesus as God. [13] He felt that since God is an omnipresent, invisible Spirit He can never be seen by man and cannot be visible in flesh. His reasoning reminded us of the Jews in Jesus' day. Like this rabbi, they tried to limit God by their own preconceived ideas of how God should act. Furthermore, they did not have a thorough knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures that proclaim the deity of the Messiah.

While it is humanly difficult to understand how the infinite God could dwell in flesh, yet the Scriptures declare it to be so. We reminded the rabbi of God's appearance in the form of a man to Abraham in Genesis 18. He admitted this was a problem for him, but he tried to explain it in terms of an anthropomorphism or figurative language. Then we referred to other verses of Scripture such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Jeremiah 23:6, and Micah 5:2 to show that the Messiah would be Jehovah God. The rabbi had no answer except to say that our translations of these verses of Scripture were possibly incorrect. He promised to study them further.

There never has been a mystery as to "persons" in the Godhead. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God, and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery about the Godhead is how God could come in flesh, how Jesus could be both God and man. But the truth of this mystery has been revealed to those who will believe. The mystery of Jesus Christ has been kept secret since the world began, but was revealed in the New Testament age (Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). A mystery in the New Testament is simply a plan of God that was not understood in the Old Testament but which has been made known to us. We "may understand… the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:4-5).

We can know the mystery of God and the Father, which is Christ (Colossians 2:2; see also the NIV and TAB). In fact, Paul explained this mystery by saying that in Jesus Christ dwells all the wisdom, knowledge, and fulness of God (Colossians 2:3, 9). The mystery of God has been revealed to us by God's Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). This revelation comes to us through God's Word, which is illuminated by the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). The light of Christ, who is the image of God, has shined in our hearts (II Corinthians 4:3-4). There is therefore no biblical mystery about the Godhead and certainly no mystery about the number of persons in the Godhead. The only mystery is Christ, and He has been revealed to us! The mystery of God and the mystery of Christ converge in the Incarnation. It is simply that the one God of Israel came to the earth in flesh. This mystery has been revealed and God's Word declares that it has been made known to us today.

Jesus is the Father

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point.

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.

4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.

Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).

We can easily understand all of this if we realize that Jesus has a dual nature. He is both Spirit and flesh, God and man, Father and Son. On His human side He is the Son of man; on His divine side He is the Son of God and is the Father dwelling in flesh. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD for more on the Son and Chapter 6 - FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST for more on Father, Son, and Spirit.)

Jesus is Jehovah

The verses of Scripture demonstrating that Jesus is the Father do not exhaust our proof that Jesus is the one God. Below are twelve verses of Scripture specifically proving that Jesus is Jehovah - the one God of the Old Testament.

1. Isaiah 40:3 prophesied that a voice in the wilderness would cry, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD" (Jehovah); Matthew 3:3 says John the Baptist is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Of course, we know that John prepared the way of the Lord Jesus Christ. Since the name Jehovah was the sacred name for the one God, the Bible would not apply it to anyone other than the Holy One of Israel; here it is applied to Jesus.

2. Malachi 3:1 says, "The LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant." This was fulfilled by Jesus, whether the literal Temple or the temple of Jesus' body is meant (John 2:21).

3. Jeremiah 23:5-6 speaks of a righteous Branch from David - a clear reference to the Messiah - and names Him "The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (See also Jeremiah 33:15-16.) In other words, Jesus is "Jehovah Our Righteousness."

4. Isaiah says, speaking of Jehovah, "His arm brought salvation" (Isaiah 59:16), and "his arm shall rule for him" (Isaiah 40:10). Isaiah 53:1-2 describes the Messiah as the revelation of the arm of the LORD. Therefore, Jesus the Savior is not another God, but an extension of Jehovah in human flesh to bring salvation to the world.

5. Isaiah prophesied that the glory of the LORD would be revealed to all flesh (Isaiah 40:5). Since Jehovah said He would not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11), we know He could only fulfill this prophecy by revealing Himself. Indeed, we find in the New Testament that Jesus had the glory of the Father (John 1:14; 17:5). He is the Lord of glory (I Corinthians 2:8). When Jesus comes again, He will come in the glory of the Father (Matthew 16:27; Mark 8:38). Since Jesus has Jehovah's glory, He must be Jehovah.

6. Jehovah said, "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak; behold, it is I" (Isaiah 52:6). Yet we know that Jesus is the One that declared the Father, manifested the Father's name, and declared the Father's name (John 1:18; 17:6; 17:26). Jesus declared the LORD's name (Psalm 22:22; Hebrews 2:12). Thus, He must be Jehovah.

7. The LORD said, "That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:23). Paul quoted this verse of Scripture to prove that all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-11). Paul also wrote, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow" (Philippians 2:10).

8. Zechariah offers convincing proof that Jesus is Jehovah. In the passage beginning with Zechariah 11:4, "the LORD my God" said, "So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." In Zechariah 12:10 Jehovah stated, "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced." Of course, it was Jesus who was sold for thirty pieces of silver and who was pierced (Matthew 26:14-16; John 19:34). Zechariah 12:8 says with reference to the Messiah, "the house of David shall be as God." Zechariah also wrote, "The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee" and describes Him battling against many nations and stepping foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-5). Of course, we know Jesus is the One coming back to the Mount of Olives as King of kings and Lord of lords to war against the nations (Acts 1:9-12; I Timothy 6:14-16; Revelation 19:11-16).

9. When Paul, the educated Jew, the Pharisee of Pharisees, the fanatic persecutor of Christianity, was stricken on the road to Damascus by a blinding light from God, he asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" As a Jew, he knew there was only one God and Lord, and he was asking, "Who are you, Jehovah?" The Lord answered, "I am Jesus" (Acts 9:5).

10. Although Moses dealt with Jehovah God, Hebrews 11:26 says that Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ to be greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. So Moses' God was Jesus Christ.

11. Psalm 68:18 depicts a scene m which Jehovah ascends on high and leads captivity captive, yet we know Jesus ascended and led captivity captive. In fact Ephesians 4:7-10 applies this prophecy to Jesus.

12. Revelation 22:6 says, "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel" to John, but verse 16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you."

There are yet many more passages of Scripture identifying Jesus with the one Jehovah God. Below is a list of verses that describe Jehovah in certain ways paired with verses that describe Jesus in the same ways. Thus, these verses of Scripture all prove that Jesus is Jehovah. Table 4: Jesus is Jehovah (I)
Jehovah Jesus
1 Almighty Genesis 17:1 Almighty Revelation 1:8
2 I AM Exodus 3:14-16 I am John 8:58
3 Rock Psalm 18:2; 28:1 Rock I Corinthians 10:4
4 Horn of Salvation Psalm 18:2 Horn of Salvation Luke 1:69
5 Shepherd Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11 Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd, Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6 King of Glory Psalm 24:7-10 Lord of Glory I Corinthians 2:8
7 Light Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19 Light John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8 Salvation Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2 Only Salvation Acts 4:10-12
9 Lord of lords Psalm 136:3 Lord of lords Revelation 19:16
10 Holy One Isaiah 12:6 Holy One Acts 2:27
11 Lawgiver Isaiah 33:22 Testator of the First Testament (the Law) Hebrews 9:14-17
12 Judge Isaiah 33:22 Judge Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13 First and Last Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14 Only Savior Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16 Savior Titus 2:13; 3:6
15 Giver of Spiritual Water Isaiah 44:3; 55:1 Giver of Living Water John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16 King of Israel Isaiah 44:6 King of Israel, King of kings John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17 Only Creator Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13 Creator of everything John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18 Only Just God Isaiah 45:21 Just One Acts 7:52
19 Redeemer Isaiah 54:5; 60:16 Redeemer Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9



Table 5: Jesus is Jehovah (II)
Name Jesus is our: Scripture
1 Jehovah-jireh (provider) Provider (of the sacrifice) Hebrews 10:10-12
2 Jehovah-rapha (healer) Healer James 5:14-15
3 Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory) Victory I Corinthians 15:57
4 Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier) Sanctifier Ephesians 5:26
5 Jehovah-shalom (peace) Peace John 14:27
6 Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts) Lord of Hosts James 5:4-7
7 Jehovah-elyon (most high) Most High Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8 Jehovah-raah (shepherd) Shepherd John 10:11
9 Jehovah-hoseenu (maker) Maker John 1:3
10 Jehovah-tsidkenu Righteousness I Corinthians 1:30
11 Jehovah-shammah (present) Ever Present One Matthew 28:20

The above lists are not exhaustive, but they are more than adequate to prove that Jesus is Jehovah. There is only one Jehovah (Deuteronomy 6:4), so this means Jesus is the one God of the Old Testament.

The Jews Understood That Jesus Claimed to be God

The Jews did not understand how God could come in flesh. They did not understand Jesus on one occasion when He told them He was the Father (John 8:19-27). However, on many other occasions they did understand His claim to be God. Once when Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and credited the work to His Father, the Jews sought to kill Him - not only because He had broken the Sabbath but because He said God was His Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18). Another time Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day. When the Jews asked how this could be, Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews immediately recognized that He claimed to be I AM - the name by which Jehovah had identified Himself in Exodus 3:14 - so they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy (John 8:56-59).

When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews sought to stone him for blasphemy, because He being a man made Himself God the Father (John 10:30-33). They sought to kill Him when He said the Father was in Him, again because He was claiming to be the Father (John 10:38-39).

When Jesus forgave a palsied man of His sins, the Jews thought He had blasphemed because they knew that only God could forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25). Jesus, knowing their thoughts, healed the man; thereby showing His divine power and proving His deity (Luke 5:20-26). The Jews were right in believing that there was one God, in believing that only God could forgive sin, and in understanding that Jesus claimed to be the one God (the Father and Jehovah). They were wrong only because they refused to believe Jesus' claim.

It is amazing that some people today not only reject the Lord's assertion of His true identity, but even fail to realize what He did assert. Even the Jewish opponents of Jesus realized that Jesus claimed to be God, the Father, and Jehovah, but some today cannot see what the Scriptures so plainly declare.

Jesus is the One on the Throne

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. John described this in Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Without doubt this One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). When we compare this to Revelation 1:5-18, we discover a remarkable similarity in the description of Jesus and the One sitting on the throne. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Moreover, Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death." From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is apparent that the One on the throne is none other than Jesus Christ.

There is additional support for this conclusion. Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Furthermore, the One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11); we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

Revelation 22:3-4 speaks of the throne of God and of the Lamb. These verses speak of one throne, one face, and one name. Therefore, God and the Lamb must be one Being who has one face and one name and who sits on one throne. The only person who is both God and the Lamb is Jesus Christ. (For discussion of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 see Chapter 7 - OLD TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS. For discussion of the Lamb in Revelation 5 see Chapter 9 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: ACTS TO REVELATION.) In short, the Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see in heaven.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ

The Book of Revelation contains many other powerful statements concerning the deity of Jesus. God's purpose in having John to write the book was to reveal or unveil Jesus Christ, not merely to reveal future events. In fact, all of John's writings strongly emphasize the oneness of God, the deity of Christ, and the dual nature of Christ. John wrote the Gospel of John so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31). Accepting Jesus as the Son of God means accepting Him as God, because the title "Son of God" simply means God manifested in the flesh. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD for further discussion.) John identified Jesus as God, the Word, the Father, and Jehovah (the I am). All of John's writings elevate the deity of Jesus; the Book of Revelation is no exception.

Revelation 1:1 tells us the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Greek for revelation is apokalupsis, from which we get the word apocalypse. It literally means an unveiling or an uncovering. Certainly the book is a prophecy of things to come, but one of the main reasons for this prophecy is to reveal Christ - to show who He really is. The serious Bible student should seek to understand the predictions in the book; but, more importantly, he should seek to understand the reason for these predictions. He should seek to understand the revealing of Jesus Christ in these future events.

The Book of Revelation presents Jesus both in His humanity and in His deity. He is the Lamb slain for our sins but He is also the Almighty God on the throne. Below is a list of some of the ways in which the book presents Christ. Table 6: Jesus in the Book of Revelation
Title Comment Scripture in Revelation
1 Faithful Witness Prophet and apostle 1:5
2 Firstbegotten of the dead 1:5
3 Prince of kings 1:5
4 Alpha and Omega 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13
5 Beginning and Ending 1:8; 21:6;
6 One which is, was, is to come 1:8; 4:8
7 The Almighty 1:8; 4:8
8 Son of man Same as Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:9 1:13
9 First and last 1:17; 22:13
10 He that liveth, was death, is alive for evermore 1:18
11 Possessor of the seven Spirits 3:1; 5:6
12 One on the throne 4:2
13 God 4:8; 21:7
14 Creator 4:11
15 Lion of tribe of Judah Humanity 5:5
16 Root of David David's creator 5:5; 22:16
17 Lamb Sacrifice for sin 5:6
18 Redeemer 5:9
19 Faithful 19:11
20 True 19:11
21 The Word of God 19:13
22 King of kings 19:16
23 Lord of lords 19:16
24 Offspring of David Humanity 22:16
25 Bright and morning star 22:16


Each of these titles and roles is a beautiful revelation of Jesus. Together, they present a portrait of One who came in flesh, died, and rose again but also One who is the everlasting Lord God Almighty.

The last chapter of Revelation describes God and the Lamb in the singular (Revelation 22:3-4) and identifies the Lord God of the holy prophets as Jesus (Revelation 22:6, 16). These references tell us that Jesus is the God of eternity and that He will appear with His glorified human body (the Lamb) throughout eternity. God's glory will be the light for the New Jerusalem as it shines through the glorified body of Jesus (Revelation 21:23). These closing chapters of the Book of Revelation describes how God will reveal (unveil) Himself in all His glory to everyone forever. They tell us that Jesus is the everlasting God and that Jesus will reveal Himself as God throughout eternity. Therefore, the book is indeed the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Has All the Attributes and Prerogatives of God

If any more proof is needed to demonstrate that Jesus is God, we can compare the attributes of Jesus with the attributes of God. In doing so we find that Jesus possesses all the attributes and prerogatives of God, particularly those that can belong only to God. In His humanity, Jesus is visible, confined to a physical body, weak, imperfect in power, and so on. In His divine nature, however, Jesus is a Spirit; for Romans 8:9 speaks of the Spirit of Christ. In His divinity, Jesus was and is omnipresent. For example, in John 3:13 Jesus referred to "the Son of man which is in heaven" even though He was still on earth. His omnipresence explains why He could say in the present tense while on earth, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). In other words, while the fulness of God's character was located in the human body of Jesus, the omnipresent Spirit of Jesus could not be so confined. While Jesus walked this earth as a man, His Spirit was still everywhere at the same time.

Jesus is also omniscient; for He could read thoughts (Mark 2:6-12). He knew Nathanael before He met him (John 1:47-50). He knows all things (John 21:17), and all wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him (Colossians 2:3).

Jesus is omnipotent; He has all power, is the head of all principality and power, and is the Almighty (Matthew 28:18; Colossians 2:10; Revelation 1:8).

Jesus is immutable and unchanging (Hebrews 13:8). He is also eternal and immortal (Hebrews 1:8-12; Revelation 1:8, 18).

Only God should receive worship (Exodus 20:1-5; 34:14), yet Jesus received worship on many occasions and will receive worship from all creation (Luke 24:52; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 1:6). Only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25), yet Jesus has power to forgive sin (Mark 2:5). God receives the spirits of men (Ecclesiastes 12:7), yet Jesus received the spirit of Stephen (Acts 7:59). God is the preparer of heaven (Hebrews 11:10), yet Jesus is the preparer of heaven (John 14:3). Therefore, we find that Jesus has all the attributes and prerogatives that belong to God alone.

Moreover, Jesus displays all the other characteristics God has. For example, while on earth Jesus displayed godly emotions such as joy, compassion, and sorrow (Luke 10:21; Mark 6:34; John 11:35). The Bible also testifies that He has the moral attributes of God. Below is a list of some moral attributes of Jesus which correspond to those of God. Table 7: Jesus Has the Moral Nature of God
1 love Ephesians 5:25
2 light John 1:3-9
3 holiness Luke 1:35
4 mercy Hebrews 2:17
5 gentleness II Corinthians 10:1
6 righteousness II Timothy 4:8
7 goodness Matthew 19:16
8 perfection Ephesians 4:13
9 justice Acts 3:14
10 faithfulness Revelation 19:11
11 truth John 14:6
12 grace John 1:16-17


Conclusion

Jesus is everything that the Bible describes God to be. He has all the attributes, prerogatives, and characteristics of God Himself. To put it simply, everything that God is Jesus is. Jesus is the one God. There is no better way to sum it all up than to say with the inspired Apostle Paul, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him" (Colossians 2:9-10).

The Oneness of God
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-16-2006, 08:10 PM
I don't believe totally that Jesus is God! We Muslims are believe in only One God and He is Unseen..we surely believe in that..Jesus did claimed he is not God and he is only human like as Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Reply

Battle_4_Peace
04-17-2006, 06:45 PM
Nowhere in the OT is Jezus called by name, so how do you know its about him? Who called Jesus Imanuel? Nobody, unfulfilled prophecy. Secondly, why do the Jahova witnesses not believe that Jesus is God, if your Bible says it? Where did Jesus say he was God? Answer this three questions please.
Reply

sadieadel
04-18-2006, 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by Arch_warrior
I have had a good off the bible , the old testament and new testeman differ so much!!! when compatrng the context of the writing!!! the old testemant devotes to god wile the new one deovotes to jesus but still devotes to god , no wonder why christians cant make up their mind about who their god is!
In respect to Christians, we Muslims can't seem to agree on much of anything either.
Reply

sadieadel
04-18-2006, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by nurofislam
Islam means to worship more than just Allah and Catholics do just that. They believe that God is three and worship Jesus, God, and Holy Spirit. That is definitely shirk.
This is shirk for us. Aren't we supposed to respect Judaism and Christianity?:?
Reply

sonz
04-18-2006, 10:30 AM
this is in wrong forum

shuld be in comp religion forum
Reply

Alphaseed
04-18-2006, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
Nowhere in the OT is Jezus called by name, so how do you know its about him? Who called Jesus Imanuel? Nobody, unfulfilled prophecy. Secondly, why do the Jahova witnesses not believe that Jesus is God, if your Bible says it? Where did Jesus say he was God? Answer this three questions please.
Over 300 prophecies were fulfilled by The Name named Yeshua , including his virgin Birth and date he would appear found in the book Of Daniels In No other man have all prophecies comed true, only in Yeshua.
Jehova witnesses and catholics are not good representations of what a christian is or beliefs, Just like Muslims have those that are extreme so does christianity have those that are placed within a group by Satan, to confuse and disrupt. :?

The Name Jesus does not appear anywhere in the Old testament because Jesus is not in Hebrew But Greek transliteration Of The Name Yeshua, which appears many times in the Old testament.
Yeshua means God's salvation in Hebrew.
Reply

Battle_4_Peace
04-18-2006, 08:11 PM
The Old Testament is Newer that the New Testament. All the original books are lost, the manuscripts you have comes from 150 to 300 A.D. So Jesus never saw what you have and he never read anything from your bible today.
Reply

Alphaseed
04-19-2006, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Battle_4_Peace
The Old Testament is Newer that the New Testament. All the original books are lost, the manuscripts you have comes from 150 to 300 A.D. So Jesus never saw what you have and he never read anything from your bible today.
THAT IS FOOLISH, THE OLD TESTAMENT IS tHE JEWISH TORAH and Tenach from which Muhammed quoted as he had access to it, due to the Jews Keeping hand written Copies in every sinagogue.
The Dead sea scrolls proved that the Torah and tenach have not changed at all since originally written By Moses, someone is teaching you lies.

Yeshua Taught from it and read it in synagogues, so the Torah have being around since Moses

Shalom/Salam :happy:
Reply

Alphaseed
04-19-2006, 11:39 PM
Bible verses that show Jesus is God

Following are verses used to show that Jesus is God in flesh. The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible. The links to the verses are to the King James Version of the Bible here on CARM.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus *said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."’"

Matt. 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matt. 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Heb. 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Jesus is prayed to

Acts 7:55-60 - "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep."

1 Cor. 1:1-2 - "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (The phrase, "to call upon the name of the Lord" is a phrase used to designate prayer.)

1 Kings 18:24 - "Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people answered and said, "That is a good idea."

Zech. 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’"

Rom. 10:13-14 - "for 'whoever will call upon the name of the Lord' will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase "Call upon the name of the Lord" is a quote from Joel 2:32).

Joel 2:32 - "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)

First and Last

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."

Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Reply

nimrod
04-28-2006, 03:25 AM
Sonz, I was thinking the exact same thing as I read the thread, especially in light of this “Here you can post allegations leveled against Islam and discuss them”.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Nicola
04-28-2006, 06:47 AM
Who called Jesus Imanuel?
Imanuel means
Immanuel or Emmanuel or Imanu'el (עִמָּנוּאֵל "God [is] with us
Reply

PrIM3
04-28-2006, 11:18 AM
daniel3:6; 22-25 Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace."

22 The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.

24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?"
They replied, "Certainly, O king."

25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."


that person was none other than the pre-incarnational body of Christ
Reply

syilla
05-05-2006, 03:56 AM
i am glad that in Islam we're not confused who is Allah...

There is one god which is Allah... clearly stated in every al-quran in this world....(the words are original and nothing has been changed... except maybe the way they translate it)


_____________________________

Allah is not born, nor is anyone born of Him. He has no son or daughter. Human beings, like the rest of creation, are His subjects.

SHAHADAH, the first of the five basic foundations, is the declaration, knowingly and voluntarily, of: La ilaha illal lahu Muhammadur rasulullah. “There is no god to be worshiped except Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”

This declaration is the basis of all actions in Islam, and the other basic duties follow this affirmation.


In Islam, this issue is clear, logical, and rational. In Islam, Allah is one. Allah has no son. Allah does not kill. In Islam, your saved or doomed by yourself and your deeds. In Islam, Allah shows us the right path and the wrong path through the Holy Quran; our responsibility is to choose either path; each one of us is saved or doomed according to his choice and, consequently, according to his deeds.


“ He has created man: He has imparted unto him articulate thought and speech. [At His behest] the sun and the moon run their appointed courses; the stars and the trees prostrate themselves [before Him]. And the skies has He raised high, and has devised [for all things] a measure, so that you [too, O men,] might never transgress the measure [of what is right]:weigh, therefore, [your deeds] with equity, and cut not the measure short!” (55:3-9).

No mediation between man and Allah.

In Islam, there is no mediation between Allah and Men. You do not need to go to a priest, to confess or repent to him. In Islam, every Muslim has a direct contacts with Allah, no matter how weak, poor, or ignorant he is. In Islam, Allah is the God of all. Every Muslim decides by himself how near or how far he wants to be from God, depending on his free will and deeds. In Islam, there are no mediators between Man and Allah.

__________________

i'm glad i'm a muslim...

Ya Allah...made islam be my only way of life...
Reply

Joe98
05-05-2006, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by ""
[09]. Jesus claimed that he was NOT God. [Mark 10:18].
[10]. God was not Created, Jesus was Created from the seed of David. [Romans 1:3].
[11]. God has no Ancestors, Jesus had. [Matthew 1:1].
[12]. God has no Gender, Jesus was a male. [Luke 2:21].
[13]. God has no Country of Origin, Jesus was born in Betlehem. [Matthew 2:1].
[14]. Jesus was a carpenter, God also? [Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55].
[15]. Jesus transported by a donkey, God also? [Matthew 21:5].
[16]. Jesus was very poor, God Allmighty also? [Matthew 8:20].
[17]. Does God pay tax? Jesus did. [Matthew 17:24-27].
Jesus had a mother who was human. This explains his human traits. Humans ride on donkeys fro example.

Jesus had a father who was Allah. This makes Jesus the Son of Allah.

-
Reply

Muslim Soldier
05-05-2006, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Jesus had a mother who was human. This explains his human traits. Humans ride on donkeys fro example.

Jesus had a father who was Allah. This makes Jesus the Son of Allah.

-
First its an insult to all the muslims when you call Allah father of Jesus.
And how did God become Jesus' farther?
Reply

Joe98
05-05-2006, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
First its an insult to all the muslims when you call Allah father of Jesus.

Mary, a human is His mother and God is His father. It was recorded 2,100 years ago. Is this a new insult or a long term insult?



Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
And how did God become Jesus' farther?
God works in mysterious ways.
God killed 80,000 Muslims in an earthquake recently.............God works in mysterious ways.

-
Reply

PrIM3
05-05-2006, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by "&quot [Link only for registered members]
[09]. Jesus claimed that he was NOT God. [Mark 10:18].

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.


Jesus wasn't deny His divinity-- something that as to be grasped--- rather He was trying to get the man to think.. why are you calling me good..

so in other words Jesus never denied His Divnity
Reply

QURBAN
05-05-2006, 01:32 PM
Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance!

Greetings PrIM3!

The above verse does not confirm his divinity either! in fact it affirms a distinction between Jesus (PBUH) and God almighty!

Kind Regards

Qurban!
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-05-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Mary, a human is His mother and God is His father. It was recorded 2,100 years ago. Is this a new insult or a long term insult?
Are you saying God had sex and Jesus was born as result?
Reply

HeiGou
05-05-2006, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Are you saying God had sex and Jesus was born as result?
No Christian thinks that God had sex with anyone. Muslims and Christians think that Jesus was born in the same way. God made it happen but did not do it physically. Although Mormons, I believe, claim that God had sex with Mary but then they are not really Christian. The difference is in the consequence: Christians think that Jesus was the Son of God, Muslims, I guess, think that Jesus had no Father at all.
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-05-2006, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
The difference is in the consequence: Christians think that Jesus was the Son of God, Muslims, I guess, think that Jesus had no Father at all.
Christians always resort to reasoning that confuses Muslims. When we ask them why Jesus is said to be the Son of God, while there are numerous other examples where prophets have been called the sons of God, they say he is the Only Begotten Son of God. When we ask them why is Begotten is emphasized, that was it that God had sexual experience with Mary who later gave birth to Jesus, they turn around again by saying it was a spiritual title. So which is which?

Because "Begotten";

begotten

adj : (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child"

It naturally conjures up in the mind... you know... "it". :offended:

Muslims do not merely THINK Jesus had no father at all. God tells us about it is so in Quran.
Reply

HeiGou
05-05-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Christians always resort to reasoning that confuses Muslims. When we ask them why Jesus is said to be the Son of God, while there are numerous other examples where prophets have been called the sons of God, they say he is the Only Begotten Son of God. When we ask them why is Begotten is emphasized, that was it that God had sexual experience with Mary who later gave birth to Jesus, they turn around again by saying it was a spiritual title. So which is which?
Find me any Christian who says that there was a sexual experience between Mary and anyone. She is known as the Mother of God and the Virgin Mary. Self-evidently she cannot be a virgin if she has sex with anyone including God. This is not a minor part of Christian theology. It is a central key claim. And the difference of obvious - the others, and we are all sons of God in the lower-case sense of the word - had real Fathers and were conceived through sexual intercourse. Jesus was not as His Mother was a Virgin.
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
And the difference of obvious - the others, and we are all sons of God in the lower-case sense of the word - had real Fathers and were conceived through sexual intercourse. Jesus was not as His Mother was a Virgin.
Are the texts the original Hebrew & Greek & Dead Sea Scrolls lower/uppercase sensitive?
Reply

HeiGou
05-05-2006, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Are the texts the original Hebrew & Greek & Dead Sea Scrolls lower/uppercase sensitive?
I have no idea. At any rate it is clear no Christians think God had sex with Mary.
Reply

PrIM3
05-05-2006, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by QURBAN
Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance!

Greetings PrIM3!

The above verse does not confirm his divinity either! in fact it affirms a distinction between Jesus (PBUH) and God almighty!

Kind Regards

Qurban!
Hello Qurban hope your well

your reply to mine spotted me to reply-

no that is where your wrong my friend... though I wouldn't expect a muslim to understand most things in the Bible... seeing how one posted many so called contradictions in the Bible---

Jesus uses many comical references between Him... that many people didn't understand...

this question was only to get Him to think.. while the man said to Jesus... Good Teacher.. Jesus stated good? why do you call me good? only God is good.. the jews were hypocrites
Reply

QURBAN
05-05-2006, 09:08 PM
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hello PrIM3!

Alhamdullillah I am fine, thank you!

When discussing the divinity of Jesus, most of the sayings of Jesus (PBUH) can be interpreted in different ways..

Take Mark 10:18 for example,

I can say its clear from this verse that Jesus and God are two separate entities one has the right to be called Good and the other does not!

But your interpretation is different

“this question was only to get Him to think.. while the man said to Jesus... Good Teacher.. Jesus stated good? why do you call me good? only God is good..
See that is the problem,

The verses used to support something as important as the divinity of Jesus, are too ambiguous and can be exposed to different interpretation…

If Jesus had said "I am God Worship me” then it would of been a bit clearer, and we would probably be debating on the integrity/preservation of the bible instead-

To me most of the sayings of Jesus (PBUH) in the bible distinguish him as a prophet of Allah the lord of the worlds-

What are your thoughts on John 7:16?

My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me."


And what is your definition of a Prophet?

Kind Regards

Qurban

:)
Reply

Joe98
05-05-2006, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Are you saying God had sex and Jesus was born as result?

Of course not!

God used his power to make Mary pregnent.

-
Reply

PrIM3
05-06-2006, 05:37 AM
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hello PrIM3!

Alhamdullillah I am fine, thank you!

When discussing the divinity of Jesus, most of the sayings of Jesus (PBUH) can be interpreted in different ways..

Take Mark 10:18 for example,

I can say its clear from this verse that Jesus and God are two separate entities one has the right to be called Good and the other does not!

But your interpretation is different

well many Christians or atleast many who studied the Bible thoroughly know how humorous Jesus can be... that is why He said that He spoke in Parables...

If Jesus had said "I am God Worship me” then it would of been a bit clearer, and we would probably be debating on the integrity/preservation of the bible instead-

your right Jesus never stated to anyone " I am God worship me " but then again God came down to earth in humbleness rather than to come and rule as a mighty awesome King.. that is what makes Him so Great. by coming down living a poor life and dieing a horrible death and then even being barried in a borrowed tomb showed His humbledness..and also Jesus never refuted the Worship..
and yes your right to say that we would be argueing, if that is what you would like to call it, all day long over the divinity of Jesus.. but then again Jesus said it is by the will of the persons ( me and you ) and God that we come to believe in something. not in arguements

What are your thoughts on John 7:16?

My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me."


my thoughts on John 7:16 is that in... the Trinity of course.. all three persons of the Trinity are not selfish but rather giving credit to each other.. and it also shows humor in Jesus to... saying something like that to those people.. who probally had a look on their faces like " what is this guy talking about "

And what is your definition of a Prophet?

a Prophet is anyone who proclaims in the name of the Lord in which comes true is a prophet...

Deuteronomy 18:9

and in this verse 1 Samuel 10:10

a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power , and he joined in their prophesying...

so in these two verses it is clear that a prophet is anyone who has the Spirit of God with Him.. ( Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth )
Reply

syilla
05-06-2006, 07:48 AM
so does that mean... jesus is not god.. and jesus is only a prophet...like islam had claim...

i am confused here...
Reply

PrIM3
05-06-2006, 12:37 PM
Syllia this is for you--

I am not sure where I stated that Jesus was only a prophet... infact Jesus was like Moses but greater than Him....
Jesus was God in human flesh who, unlike sinners, showed humility rather than who He really was... that is my guess on why He used the Son of Man rather than Son of God, or as you say " I am God Worship Me "..
by some muslims stating that is it ok for someone to boast in islam? jw





Qurban our conversation is still on page 3...
Reply

*Hana*
05-06-2006, 01:58 PM
Peace PrIM3:

My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me."

my thoughts on John 7:16 is that in... the Trinity of course.. all three persons of the Trinity are not selfish but rather giving credit to each other.. and it also shows humor in Jesus to... saying something like that to those people.. who probally had a look on their faces like " what is this guy talking about "
So, Jesus, pbuh, was humble when referring to Himself only, but not so much when referring to His other selves? :? You're saying He gave credit to the other 2 in the trinity....the other 2 are also Him. I doubt very much anyone was confused by that actual statement, it only becomes confusing when it is twisted. The words are plain, clear and precise. The doctrine does not come from Him, He did not create it. He's saying clearly, the credit belongs to someone other than Him....namely God, the one who sent Him. If He were God and made the statement as you suggest, then He lied, because it did come from Him, as according to the concept of Trinity, He is God...all 3 are one, therefore, it would be His doctrine.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

PrIM3
05-06-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Peace PrIM3:



So, Jesus, pbuh, was humble when referring to Himself only, but not so much when referring to His other selves? :? You're saying He gave credit to the other 2 in the trinity....the other 2 are also Him. I doubt very much anyone was confused by that actual statement, it only becomes confusing when it is twisted. The words are plain, clear and precise. The doctrine does not come from Him, He did not create it. He's saying clearly, the credit belongs to someone other than Him....namely God, the one who sent Him. If He were God and made the statement as you suggest, then He lied, because it did come from Him, as according to the concept of Trinity, He is God...all 3 are one, therefore, it would be His doctrine.

Peace,
Hana
what do you mean He was selfish to His other selves?

no even though all 3 persons of the Trinity are different people they are all 1.

the only analogy(though it is not the best one) I can come up with is this:

me and you have a flesh, spirit and soul.

God has a flesh(Jesus in the flesh ), spirit(Spirit) and soul(which is the Father)-

so each 3 of those represents what God is.... in genesis God created us 3 ways... which He uses the plural "us" rather than "myself"...

and I believe if I remember that triangle thing...

the Father is God - but is not The Son and the Son is God but is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father...

Jesus gave credit to His Father...

I best stop and pray for a bit before I go on before I state something blasphemous against God. as God IS indescribable... sorry for this last answer... but that is so..
Reply

nimrod
05-06-2006, 06:45 PM
Syilla, I can see why a person might become confused until they have thoroughly searched it out for themselves.

Jesus was a prophet as well as being God and man at the same time.

Matthew 9:1-8
Luke 5:17-26
Mark 2:1-12

Jesus Heals a Paralytic
1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them.
3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on.

5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?

10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."

12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

I hope that clears up a little confusion for you.



We all agree that God alone has the authority to decide if one's sins are forgiven.

Jesus, the man, had that authority bestowed on him by the Holy Spirit which is God.

This often referred to as Jesus’ Devine spirit.
Jesus was man in flesh and God in spirit.

One of the sources of confusion, as can be seen in the original post on this thread, is that Jesus showed that no fleshly man is to be worshipped. All fleshly men are subject to the limits of their faith. No fleshly man is to be prayed to. All men are to pray to God.

Therefore the man Jesus didn’t allow himself to be worshipped or prayed to till after he had ascended and he had returned resurrected. His fleshly body was now dead. The portion of Jesus that came from Mary had done its job or fulfilled its role.

That is why here on Earth today we are in the company of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is this same Holy Spirit, the very same Holy Spirit that caused Mary to be with a child.

God is ONE. That is why Jesus taught us to baptize in THE name of the Father and the Holy Spirit and Son. THE name, not names. If these were three separate beings then there would be “names” and not a single name. That name is for us “God Almighty”.

When Jesus instructed his apostles to baptize in his name and associated his name with the Fathers name, he showed himself to share the same name as his Father “God Almighty”.

Therefore it is seen that Jesus is “God Almighty”.

If anything I have stated has left you confused, please let me know and I will re-address it.

Syilla, it is important to remember that there aren’t always Earthly examples of things as they are in Heaven.

That is one of the major problems I have with the Koran, it denies many things in the Bible with no logical reason as to why. Nor does it offer answers to questions such as those concerning the Four-Faced beings found in the Bible.

I have had many on this web-site try and tell me the very make up of God and his Being, yet no one has been able to explain the make up and being of the Four-Faced creatures described in the Bible.

It leaves me wondering how any man who didn’t/couldn’t or can’t explain a simple matter such as that, could then go on to make claims as to the exact make up or nature of God.

Who is man that he should say that God can’t in some fashion become a man?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Umar001
05-07-2006, 03:35 PM
Ok same old arguements again and again,

I ask any person reading this to read the bible to see whether statements are confirmed.

One point, forgiving sins, namely, the authority of forgiving sins was given, hence if God wanted to he could give it to me, wouldnt make me any more than a man, with a gift from God, also if we believe a person to have direct contact with God be it through angels or so then God could inform that man that another person's sins are forgiven, this goes along with Jesus stating that he alone can do nothing.

Also, the Worship me part, The God of the old testament made it clear, you see it is not about being selfless it is merely about leaving no confusion, so that we wont debate whether he is God, if jesus claimed it clearly then we wouldnt debate it, and then the point was made that if he did say it we would debate of the integritity of the scripture, people already do that so it would be nothing new.

Alot of Christians seem to go ahead saying, Jesus accepted worship:

1. Someone else was worshipped and he did not reject it ok, its in the Bible go find it.

2. Read the meaning of this word worshipped, if you have time go back and see what it says, cos this is an important part.

Once you see both things I guess we will understand it better.

The belief of the divinity is needed before any sort of proof can be seeen, someone has to believe and wantto find Jesus to be God in order to derive to that point.

Anyhow, Peace be upon yall, correct my mistakes if yall see any please
Reply

nimrod
05-07-2006, 05:30 PM
IsaAbdulla:
"One point, forgiving sins, namely, the authority of forgiving sins was given, hence if God wanted to he could give it to me, wouldnt make me any more than a man, with a gift from God,"

If your simple answer is correct, then give me another comparable example of a simple prophet of God having that authority.
If your simple answer is correct and complete, then why did the "Teachers of the Law" believe Jesus had blasphemed?
If your simple answer is correct and complete, why were the Jewish people so amazed?
If your simple answer is correct and complete, then explain how it is the Jesus gave the authority to the Apostles to decide what would be loosed or bound in Heaven?

"also if we believe a person to have direct contact with God be it through angels or so then God could inform that man that another person's sins are forgiven, this goes along with Jesus stating that he alone can do nothing".

There is nothing in the scripture I cited that shows or implies that there were Angels whispering into Jesus' ear and telling him that the man's sins were forgiven.

Jesus was a man as well as being God in the flesh, I know you disagree with this.
Jesus set the perfict code of conduct for men to follow. As such, the man, Jesus could do nothing that God didn't allow.

The inverse of that can be found in the scripture that say's that there will come a time when the Apostles would no longer pray to the Father in Jesus' name, but that they would pray directly to Jesus and he would give them what they asked.

Jesus futher clarified that with the statement that they shouldn't get the impression that they would be praying to Jesus and that Jesus would then ask the Father to answer their prayers, but rather that Jesus himself would answer their prayers.


Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Umar001
05-14-2006, 07:33 PM
If your simple answer is correct, then give me another comparable example of a simple prophet of God having that authority.
I would just like to emphasise on the key aspect that Jesus was given this authority, if Jesus just had it then it would be something amazing but Jesus was given it, just like someone else could be given something. The pure fact that Jesus didn’t have it but was given it shows that Jesus isn’t God. He might be a special son or something but not God. It is like saying, for example, you have the Boss of the company, and then you have vice-boss, and then managers, just because no other person under the Boss has been given the same authority in the business does this mean the Boss and vice-boss are the same?

If your simple answer is correct and complete, then why did the "Teachers of the Law" believe Jesus had blasphemed?
Simple, just read the Bible, first we see the teaching method of Jesus according to the Bible is a very stern method and a method used by someone who claims to have authority.
Examples that I can find include:

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Show the authority, where as teachers would say The Law says this and that, Jesus taught, "you heard this but I tell you that" and people quite naturally would have thought whose this geezer, and the hypocrites who wanted power would have been angry at this show of Authority.

Also, Jesus condemned the acts of many people, such as the comments of ‘When you pray do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others…’ (Matthew 6:5) It seems clear who Jesus is condemning, he went further on to say ‘..If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and want to carry out your father’s desire...’ (John 8:42-44)

So from this point of anger it is clear that any chance came to get Jesus killed, so when Jesus says I and the father are one, the enemies jumped to the conclusion of claiming divinity just like a lot of Christians do, and when Jesus called himself son and so on they claimed he was making himself one with God. Yet if taken into context and from an unbiased party they would have seen differently.

If your simple answer is correct and complete, why were the Jewish people so amazed?
Look at us now days we are amazed to see no traffic at peak hours, how much more amazed would we be if we saw a man unaided, no tricks, straight up walking on water, or if we saw a man give people minimal food with maximum result, the closest we have come is getting buy one get one free pizza deals and boy we get amazed at that. So its simple, anyone who can perform a miracle would be amazing, jee, look at David Blain.

If your simple answer is correct and complete, then explain how it is the Jesus gave the authority to the Apostles to decide what would be loosed or bound in Heaven?
Simple, if you have a hierarchy ladder, the Boss is the owner, and he appoints a manager, the managers give the shop assistants tasks and so on, and tell the shop assistants what they can and can’t do. Now let’s say the Boss gives the manager x amount of money as a bonus to distribute among the shop assistants , the manager then with this authority, which is given by the Boss, then gives the money to some shop assistants. Does this mean the manager is the same as the Boss? Nope, the authority was given to the manager, just like Jesus’ was given it.

"also if we believe a person to have direct contact with God be it through angels or so then God could inform that man that another person's sins are forgiven, this goes along with Jesus stating that he alone can do nothing".

There is nothing in the scripture I cited that shows or implies that there were Angels whispering into Jesus' ear and telling him that the man's sins were forgiven.
I am not saying that, the contact was from angels that was an example, meaning what ever way a person has direct contact, I am not stating that you said it or that you indicated it, I am merely just pointing to the communication. The fact that Jesus says sentences like ‘For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.’ (John 12:49)

Jesus was a man as well as being God in the flesh, I know you disagree with this.
Jesus set the perfict code of conduct for men to follow. As such, the man, Jesus could do nothing that God didn't allow.
Lol, I sure disagree, Jesus was very quiet about being God if he was.
As to whether Jesus set a perfect example that is debateable, I mean maybe a ‘perfect example’ in a small area, not in the every aspect of life.
Would you please clarify how this is a perfect example:

In responding to his mother Jesus says ‘O woman, what have you to do with me?....’

Now I think the context of this is valid, I mean his time had not come so he had nothing to do with her, still sounds abit harsh. But the problem is, I know if I said to my mom, 'Woman, what have you to do with me?' I would recieve more than a smile from her.

Or in responding to a woman who came crying, asking for mercy, and explained her daughter’s poor state, he turns away, after a bit of drama, he ended up saying, ‘I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’ So much for mercy, until she asked more for his help, and he made an example, which shows the status of she holds, ‘It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.’ Poor lady, being so helpless could but agree, and take this sub-human position and ended up saying ‘Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.’ Read on, see that this woman was of high faith too, not just a normal person, or shall I say dog.

The inverse of that can be found in the scripture that say's that there will come a time when the Apostles would no longer pray to the Father in Jesus' name, but that they would pray directly to Jesus and he would give them what they asked.

Jesus futher clarified that with the statement that they shouldn't get the impression that they would be praying to Jesus and that Jesus would then ask the Father to answer their prayers, but rather that Jesus himself would answer their prayers.

Thanks
Nimrod
I thank you for your patience with me, and I hope that you can keep patient since I am always learning, and this is my viewpoint nottrying to belittle anyone.

Again, as a conclusion, I think the whole thing can be summed up in the basic principle that because God for example would give me the power to forgive it doesn’t mean that I am God, why? Because I am a creation, it might make me a blessed and special creation but I am not God. Because the mere fact that I was given something shows that I don’t have the whole dominion, I don’t have everything as God does.

Any mistakes forgive me for it, All praise be to the God of Abraham. Peace be upon him.
Peace be upon Jesus and immune be he from any falsehood that may be ascribed to him.

Some of the Biblical quotes I had to type up because I don’t have an online bible search thing so I ADVISE PEOPLE TO LOOK THEM UP, and READ, and if anything seems to be out of context then please make it clear to me.

Peace be upon yall.
Reply

primitivefuture
05-14-2006, 09:22 PM
Wow, very insightful indeed!
Reply

Wahid
05-14-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
The Old Testament Testifies That Jesus Is God

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

4. Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.

5. Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD (Jehovah) and our God.

6. Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah… out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Thus the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.

The New Testament Proclaims That Jesus is God

1. According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood, namely the blood of Jesus.

3. Paul described Jesus as "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13; NIV has "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ").

4. Peter described Him as "God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Peter 1:1; NIV and TAB both have "our God and Savior Jesus Christ").

5. Our bodies are the temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet we know Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17).

6. The Book of Colossians strongly emphasizes the deity of Christ. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9; see also 1:19). According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus is not just a part of God, but all of God is resident in Him. If there were several persons in the Godhead, according to Colossians 2:9 they would all be resident in the bodily form of Jesus. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). Whatever we need from God we can find in Jesus Christ alone. (For further discussion of Colossians 2:9 and other proofs of Christ's deity in Colossians, see Chapter 9 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: ACTS TO REVELATION.)

We conclude that the New Testament testifies to the full deity of Jesus Christ.

God Was Manifest in the Flesh as Jesus

The statement that Jesus is God necessarily implies that God took on human flesh. This is in fact what the Bible says.

1. "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16; see verse 15 for further confirmation that God is the subject of verse 16). God was manifest (made visible) in flesh; God was justified (shown to be right) in the Spirit; God was seen of angels; God was believed on in the world; and God was received up into glory. How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

God is a Spirit without flesh and blood and invisible to man. In order to make Himself visible to man and in order to shed innocent blood for our sins, He had to put on flesh. (For more on the purposes of the Son, see Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Jesus is not another God or a part of God, but He is the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh. He is the Father; He is Jehovah who came in flesh to bridge the gap between man and God that man's sin had created. He put on flesh as a man puts on a coat.

Many verses of Scripture declare Jesus Christ to be the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh for the purpose of self-revelation and reconciliation.

3. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Corinthians 5:19).

4. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [spoken, revealed] him" (John 1:18).

5. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son… the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…" (Hebrew 1:1-3).

6. Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

7. He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20). As Abraham prophesied, probably without understanding the full meaning of his own words, "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8). God indeed provided a body for Himself: "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5).

8. Jesus was the builder of the house (God the Father and Creator) and also a son over his own house (Hebrews 3:3-6).

9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).

The Word

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." [10] In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure." [11] This thought is further brought out by verse 14, which says the incarnated Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, and by verse 18, which says that the Son has declared the Father.

In Greek philosophy, the Logos came to mean reason or wisdom as the controlling principle of the universe. In John's day, some Greek philosophers and Jewish theologians influenced by Greek thought (especially the Jewish thinker, Philo of Alexandria) regarded the Logos as an inferior, secondary deity or as an emanation from God in time. [12] Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role. John deliberately used their own terminology to refute these doctrines and to declare the truth. The Word was not inferior to God; it was God (John 1:1). The Word did not emanate from God over a period of time; it was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was none other than the Word, or God, revealed in flesh. Note also that the Greek word pros, translated "with" in verse 1, is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1. John 1:1 could include in its meanings, therefore, the following: "The Word pertained to God and the Word was God," or, "The Word belonged to God and was God."

Jesus Was God From the Beginning Of His Human Life

God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fulness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus' human life began.

1. Matthew 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." He was "God with us" even at his birth.

2. The angels worshiped Him at His birth (Hebrews 1:6), Simeon recognized the infant as the Christ (Luke 2:26), Anna saw the babe as the redeemer of Israel (Luke 2:38), and the wise men worshiped the young child (Matthew 2:11).

3. Micah 5:2 ascribed deity to the Messiah at His birth in Bethlehem, not just after His life in Nazareth or His baptism in Jordan.

4. Luke 1:35 explains why Jesus was God at the beginning of His human life. The angel told Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Jesus was born of a virgin, His conception being effected by the Holy Ghost. Because of this ("therefore"), He was the Son of God. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God because God, and not a man, caused His conception. God was literally His Father. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…" (John 3:16). To beget means to father, sire, procreate, or cause. Jesus was begotten by God in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Isaiah 7:14 also links the virgin conception with the recognition that the Son thus born would be God. In other words, at the moment of conception, God placed His divine nature in the seed of the woman. The child to be born received its life and the fatherly side of its nature from God at this time. From the mother's side it received the human nature of Mary; from the father's side (God, not Joseph) it received the nature of God. Jesus obtained His divine nature through the conception process; He did not become divine by some later act of God. The virgin birth of Jesus establishes His deity.

Some believe that Jesus received the fulness of God at some later time in His life, such as at His baptism. However, in light of the virgin birth and Luke 1:35 this cannot be so. Jesus received His nature of deity as well as the nature of humanity at conception. The descent of the Holy Ghost like a dove at the baptism of Jesus was not a baptism of the Holy Ghost; Jesus already had all the fulness of God within Him (Colossians 2:9). Rather, His baptism, among other things, occurred as a symbolic anointing for the beginning of His earthly ministry and as a confirmation to John the Baptist of His deity (John 1:32-34). (For more on the baptism of Jesus see Chapter 8 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: THE GOSPEL.)

The Mystery of Godliness

The fact that God became flesh is one of the most wonderful and yet one of the most incomprehensible things about God. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…" (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus is like no other man that ever has been or will be. He has two natures; He is fully God and fully man. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Most problems in people's minds concerning the Godhead come from this great mystery. They cannot understand the dual nature of Christ and cannot correctly separate his two roles. They cannot comprehend how God could take on the form of a baby and live among men.

It is true that we cannot comprehend fully how the miraculous conception - the union of God and man - took place in the womb of Mary, but we can accept it by faith. In fact, if we do not believe that Jesus is come in the flesh we have an antichrist spirit (II John 7), but if we do accept this doctrine of Christ we will have both the Father and the Son (II John 9). Both Father and Son are revealed in Christ (John 10:30; 14:6-11).

The mystery of God in flesh was a great stumbling block to the Jews. They never could understand how Jesus, being a man, could also be God (John 10:33). Because He claimed to be God they rejected Him and sought to kill Him (John 5:18; 10:33).

Even today, many Jews cannot accept Jesus for this reason. In a conversation, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi told us he could never accept Jesus as God. [13] He felt that since God is an omnipresent, invisible Spirit He can never be seen by man and cannot be visible in flesh. His reasoning reminded us of the Jews in Jesus' day. Like this rabbi, they tried to limit God by their own preconceived ideas of how God should act. Furthermore, they did not have a thorough knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures that proclaim the deity of the Messiah.

While it is humanly difficult to understand how the infinite God could dwell in flesh, yet the Scriptures declare it to be so. We reminded the rabbi of God's appearance in the form of a man to Abraham in Genesis 18. He admitted this was a problem for him, but he tried to explain it in terms of an anthropomorphism or figurative language. Then we referred to other verses of Scripture such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Jeremiah 23:6, and Micah 5:2 to show that the Messiah would be Jehovah God. The rabbi had no answer except to say that our translations of these verses of Scripture were possibly incorrect. He promised to study them further.

There never has been a mystery as to "persons" in the Godhead. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God, and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery about the Godhead is how God could come in flesh, how Jesus could be both God and man. But the truth of this mystery has been revealed to those who will believe. The mystery of Jesus Christ has been kept secret since the world began, but was revealed in the New Testament age (Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). A mystery in the New Testament is simply a plan of God that was not understood in the Old Testament but which has been made known to us. We "may understand… the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:4-5).

We can know the mystery of God and the Father, which is Christ (Colossians 2:2; see also the NIV and TAB). In fact, Paul explained this mystery by saying that in Jesus Christ dwells all the wisdom, knowledge, and fulness of God (Colossians 2:3, 9). The mystery of God has been revealed to us by God's Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). This revelation comes to us through God's Word, which is illuminated by the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). The light of Christ, who is the image of God, has shined in our hearts (II Corinthians 4:3-4). There is therefore no biblical mystery about the Godhead and certainly no mystery about the number of persons in the Godhead. The only mystery is Christ, and He has been revealed to us! The mystery of God and the mystery of Christ converge in the Incarnation. It is simply that the one God of Israel came to the earth in flesh. This mystery has been revealed and God's Word declares that it has been made known to us today.

Jesus is the Father

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point.

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.

4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.

Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).

We can easily understand all of this if we realize that Jesus has a dual nature. He is both Spirit and flesh, God and man, Father and Son. On His human side He is the Son of man; on His divine side He is the Son of God and is the Father dwelling in flesh. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD for more on the Son and Chapter 6 - FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST for more on Father, Son, and Spirit.)

Jesus is Jehovah

The verses of Scripture demonstrating that Jesus is the Father do not exhaust our proof that Jesus is the one God. Below are twelve verses of Scripture specifically proving that Jesus is Jehovah - the one God of the Old Testament.

1. Isaiah 40:3 prophesied that a voice in the wilderness would cry, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD" (Jehovah); Matthew 3:3 says John the Baptist is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Of course, we know that John prepared the way of the Lord Jesus Christ. Since the name Jehovah was the sacred name for the one God, the Bible would not apply it to anyone other than the Holy One of Israel; here it is applied to Jesus.

2. Malachi 3:1 says, "The LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant." This was fulfilled by Jesus, whether the literal Temple or the temple of Jesus' body is meant (John 2:21).

3. Jeremiah 23:5-6 speaks of a righteous Branch from David - a clear reference to the Messiah - and names Him "The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (See also Jeremiah 33:15-16.) In other words, Jesus is "Jehovah Our Righteousness."

4. Isaiah says, speaking of Jehovah, "His arm brought salvation" (Isaiah 59:16), and "his arm shall rule for him" (Isaiah 40:10). Isaiah 53:1-2 describes the Messiah as the revelation of the arm of the LORD. Therefore, Jesus the Savior is not another God, but an extension of Jehovah in human flesh to bring salvation to the world.

5. Isaiah prophesied that the glory of the LORD would be revealed to all flesh (Isaiah 40:5). Since Jehovah said He would not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11), we know He could only fulfill this prophecy by revealing Himself. Indeed, we find in the New Testament that Jesus had the glory of the Father (John 1:14; 17:5). He is the Lord of glory (I Corinthians 2:8). When Jesus comes again, He will come in the glory of the Father (Matthew 16:27; Mark 8:38). Since Jesus has Jehovah's glory, He must be Jehovah.

6. Jehovah said, "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak; behold, it is I" (Isaiah 52:6). Yet we know that Jesus is the One that declared the Father, manifested the Father's name, and declared the Father's name (John 1:18; 17:6; 17:26). Jesus declared the LORD's name (Psalm 22:22; Hebrews 2:12). Thus, He must be Jehovah.

7. The LORD said, "That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:23). Paul quoted this verse of Scripture to prove that all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-11). Paul also wrote, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow" (Philippians 2:10).

8. Zechariah offers convincing proof that Jesus is Jehovah. In the passage beginning with Zechariah 11:4, "the LORD my God" said, "So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." In Zechariah 12:10 Jehovah stated, "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced." Of course, it was Jesus who was sold for thirty pieces of silver and who was pierced (Matthew 26:14-16; John 19:34). Zechariah 12:8 says with reference to the Messiah, "the house of David shall be as God." Zechariah also wrote, "The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee" and describes Him battling against many nations and stepping foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-5). Of course, we know Jesus is the One coming back to the Mount of Olives as King of kings and Lord of lords to war against the nations (Acts 1:9-12; I Timothy 6:14-16; Revelation 19:11-16).

9. When Paul, the educated Jew, the Pharisee of Pharisees, the fanatic persecutor of Christianity, was stricken on the road to Damascus by a blinding light from God, he asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" As a Jew, he knew there was only one God and Lord, and he was asking, "Who are you, Jehovah?" The Lord answered, "I am Jesus" (Acts 9:5).

10. Although Moses dealt with Jehovah God, Hebrews 11:26 says that Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ to be greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. So Moses' God was Jesus Christ.

11. Psalm 68:18 depicts a scene m which Jehovah ascends on high and leads captivity captive, yet we know Jesus ascended and led captivity captive. In fact Ephesians 4:7-10 applies this prophecy to Jesus.

12. Revelation 22:6 says, "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel" to John, but verse 16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you."

There are yet many more passages of Scripture identifying Jesus with the one Jehovah God. Below is a list of verses that describe Jehovah in certain ways paired with verses that describe Jesus in the same ways. Thus, these verses of Scripture all prove that Jesus is Jehovah. Table 4: Jesus is Jehovah (I)
Jehovah Jesus
1 Almighty Genesis 17:1 Almighty Revelation 1:8
2 I AM Exodus 3:14-16 I am John 8:58
3 Rock Psalm 18:2; 28:1 Rock I Corinthians 10:4
4 Horn of Salvation Psalm 18:2 Horn of Salvation Luke 1:69
5 Shepherd Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:10-11 Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, Chief Shepherd, Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4
6 King of Glory Psalm 24:7-10 Lord of Glory I Corinthians 2:8
7 Light Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19 Light John 1:4-9; John 8:12; Revelation 21:23
8 Salvation Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 12:2 Only Salvation Acts 4:10-12
9 Lord of lords Psalm 136:3 Lord of lords Revelation 19:16
10 Holy One Isaiah 12:6 Holy One Acts 2:27
11 Lawgiver Isaiah 33:22 Testator of the First Testament (the Law) Hebrews 9:14-17
12 Judge Isaiah 33:22 Judge Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42
13 First and Last Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last Revelation 1:8; 22:13
14 Only Savior Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; 60:16 Savior Titus 2:13; 3:6
15 Giver of Spiritual Water Isaiah 44:3; 55:1 Giver of Living Water John 4:10-14; 7:38-39
16 King of Israel Isaiah 44:6 King of Israel, King of kings John 1:49; Revelation 19:16
17 Only Creator Isaiah 44:24; 45:8; 48:13 Creator of everything John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
18 Only Just God Isaiah 45:21 Just One Acts 7:52
19 Redeemer Isaiah 54:5; 60:16 Redeemer Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9



Table 5: Jesus is Jehovah (II)
Name Jesus is our: Scripture
1 Jehovah-jireh (provider) Provider (of the sacrifice) Hebrews 10:10-12
2 Jehovah-rapha (healer) Healer James 5:14-15
3 Jehovah-nissi (banner, victory) Victory I Corinthians 15:57
4 Jehovah-m'kaddesh (sanctifier) Sanctifier Ephesians 5:26
5 Jehovah-shalom (peace) Peace John 14:27
6 Jehovah-sabaoth (Lord of hosts) Lord of Hosts James 5:4-7
7 Jehovah-elyon (most high) Most High Luke 1:32, 76, 78
8 Jehovah-raah (shepherd) Shepherd John 10:11
9 Jehovah-hoseenu (maker) Maker John 1:3
10 Jehovah-tsidkenu Righteousness I Corinthians 1:30
11 Jehovah-shammah (present) Ever Present One Matthew 28:20

The above lists are not exhaustive, but they are more than adequate to prove that Jesus is Jehovah. There is only one Jehovah (Deuteronomy 6:4), so this means Jesus is the one God of the Old Testament.

The Jews Understood That Jesus Claimed to be God

The Jews did not understand how God could come in flesh. They did not understand Jesus on one occasion when He told them He was the Father (John 8:19-27). However, on many other occasions they did understand His claim to be God. Once when Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and credited the work to His Father, the Jews sought to kill Him - not only because He had broken the Sabbath but because He said God was His Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18). Another time Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day. When the Jews asked how this could be, Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews immediately recognized that He claimed to be I AM - the name by which Jehovah had identified Himself in Exodus 3:14 - so they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy (John 8:56-59).

When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews sought to stone him for blasphemy, because He being a man made Himself God the Father (John 10:30-33). They sought to kill Him when He said the Father was in Him, again because He was claiming to be the Father (John 10:38-39).

When Jesus forgave a palsied man of His sins, the Jews thought He had blasphemed because they knew that only God could forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25). Jesus, knowing their thoughts, healed the man; thereby showing His divine power and proving His deity (Luke 5:20-26). The Jews were right in believing that there was one God, in believing that only God could forgive sin, and in understanding that Jesus claimed to be the one God (the Father and Jehovah). They were wrong only because they refused to believe Jesus' claim.

It is amazing that some people today not only reject the Lord's assertion of His true identity, but even fail to realize what He did assert. Even the Jewish opponents of Jesus realized that Jesus claimed to be God, the Father, and Jehovah, but some today cannot see what the Scriptures so plainly declare.

Jesus is the One on the Throne

There is one throne in heaven and One who sits upon it. John described this in Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Without doubt this One is God because the twenty-four elders around the throne address Him as "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Revelation 4:8). When we compare this to Revelation 1:5-18, we discover a remarkable similarity in the description of Jesus and the One sitting on the throne. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). Verses 5-7 make clear that Jesus is the One speaking in verse 8. Moreover, Jesus is clearly the subject of Revelation 1:11-18. In verse 11, Jesus identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. In verses 17-18 Jesus said, "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of bell and of death." From the first chapter of Revelation, therefore, we find that Jesus is the Lord, the Almighty, and the One who is, was, and is to come. Since the same descriptive terms and titles apply to Jesus and to the One sitting on the throne, it is apparent that the One on the throne is none other than Jesus Christ.

There is additional support for this conclusion. Revelation 4:11 tells us the One on the throne is the Creator, and we know Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Furthermore, the One on the throne is worthy to receive glory, honor, and power (Revelation 4:11); we read that the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) is worthy to receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing (Revelation 5:12). Revelation 20:11-12 tells us the One on the throne is the Judge, and we know Jesus is the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). We conclude that Jesus must be the One on the throne in Revelation 4.

Revelation 22:3-4 speaks of the throne of God and of the Lamb. These verses speak of one throne, one face, and one name. Therefore, God and the Lamb must be one Being who has one face and one name and who sits on one throne. The only person who is both God and the Lamb is Jesus Christ. (For discussion of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 see Chapter 7 - OLD TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS. For discussion of the Lamb in Revelation 5 see Chapter 9 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: ACTS TO REVELATION.) In short, the Book of Revelation tells us that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus alone on the throne. Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see in heaven.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ

The Book of Revelation contains many other powerful statements concerning the deity of Jesus. God's purpose in having John to write the book was to reveal or unveil Jesus Christ, not merely to reveal future events. In fact, all of John's writings strongly emphasize the oneness of God, the deity of Christ, and the dual nature of Christ. John wrote the Gospel of John so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31). Accepting Jesus as the Son of God means accepting Him as God, because the title "Son of God" simply means God manifested in the flesh. (See Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD for further discussion.) John identified Jesus as God, the Word, the Father, and Jehovah (the I am). All of John's writings elevate the deity of Jesus; the Book of Revelation is no exception.

Revelation 1:1 tells us the book is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The Greek for revelation is apokalupsis, from which we get the word apocalypse. It literally means an unveiling or an uncovering. Certainly the book is a prophecy of things to come, but one of the main reasons for this prophecy is to reveal Christ - to show who He really is. The serious Bible student should seek to understand the predictions in the book; but, more importantly, he should seek to understand the reason for these predictions. He should seek to understand the revealing of Jesus Christ in these future events.

The Book of Revelation presents Jesus both in His humanity and in His deity. He is the Lamb slain for our sins but He is also the Almighty God on the throne. Below is a list of some of the ways in which the book presents Christ. Table 6: Jesus in the Book of Revelation
Title Comment Scripture in Revelation
1 Faithful Witness Prophet and apostle 1:5
2 Firstbegotten of the dead 1:5
3 Prince of kings 1:5
4 Alpha and Omega 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13
5 Beginning and Ending 1:8; 21:6;
6 One which is, was, is to come 1:8; 4:8
7 The Almighty 1:8; 4:8
8 Son of man Same as Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:9 1:13
9 First and last 1:17; 22:13
10 He that liveth, was death, is alive for evermore 1:18
11 Possessor of the seven Spirits 3:1; 5:6
12 One on the throne 4:2
13 God 4:8; 21:7
14 Creator 4:11
15 Lion of tribe of Judah Humanity 5:5
16 Root of David David's creator 5:5; 22:16
17 Lamb Sacrifice for sin 5:6
18 Redeemer 5:9
19 Faithful 19:11
20 True 19:11
21 The Word of God 19:13
22 King of kings 19:16
23 Lord of lords 19:16
24 Offspring of David Humanity 22:16
25 Bright and morning star 22:16


Each of these titles and roles is a beautiful revelation of Jesus. Together, they present a portrait of One who came in flesh, died, and rose again but also One who is the everlasting Lord God Almighty.




Conclusion

Jesus is everything that the Bible describes God to be. He has all the attributes, prerogatives, and characteristics of God Himself. To put it simply, everything that God is Jesus is. Jesus is the one God. There is no better way to sum it all up than to say with the inspired Apostle Paul, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him" (Colossians 2:9-10).

The Oneness of God

ok so in the quotes in first page Isah (pbuh) says he is not a God but now it is implied that he is??? nice book u have there full of contridiction, cant even decide who is God :giggling:
Reply

Syed Nizam
05-18-2006, 02:04 PM
Assalamualaikum & Greetings 2 all,

Just 4 the tought of sharing, for the muslims and the Christians alike. I've found one website that is very objective on these so-called issues on the status of Jesus (pbuh). And it gives explaination based on the Bible itself. See how much the Bible has been distorted to justify the means. Happy surfing...

http://www.mostmerciful.com/notgod--1-7.htm
http://www.mostmerciful.com/notgod--8-15.htm
Reply

HeiGou
05-18-2006, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Just 4 the tought of sharing, for the muslims and the Christians alike. I've found one website that is very objective on these so-called issues on the status of Jesus (pbuh).
Just for the record - you cannot call anyone who takes the Islamic position on Christianity as the start and finish of his discussion on Christianity as objective. The guy has made his mind up and tortures the evidence to get a result.
Reply

Umar001
05-18-2006, 07:56 PM
Jee seems people are blowing trumpets about '300 prophecies' and so on, we could sit here and go through each one by one.

I tried and found out that it turns out not to be that great of a thing, jumping from Misquoted verses to prove so called prophecies.

but again, we can try it
Reply

Syed Nizam
05-19-2006, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Just for the record - you cannot call anyone who takes the Islamic position on Christianity as the start and finish of his discussion on Christianity as objective. The guy has made his mind up and tortures the evidence to get a result.
Have u read the links that i've provided. It has nothing to do with the Islamic view of points as it is irrrelevance anyway to campare beween Islam & Christianity, and vise versa. It just provided arguments based on the Bible itself. Like i said before, happy surfing. We are only here to learn, not to believe. The choice is yours....:okay:
Reply

Umar001
05-19-2006, 03:52 PM
Peace be upon yall.

Just so we have some peace of mind from these statments we can take a look at 3 of them. This is from research and hardly anything is my own 'new work' so May The G-d of Abraham, Guide the Christians who have worked hard to get closer to truth and Bless both Christians and Muslims who have earnestly and honestly worked for only G-d.

Now it is stated:

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

Now there are many approaches that cane be taken, First and foremost we can for the sake of arguement agree this is Jesus, thought hardly much indicates that but a preconditioned mind.

One point, never did Jesus have a goverment, Jesus explictly said 'My kingdom is not of this world' and 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's' (John 18:36 and Matthew 22:21)

To go on, we see for some reason the words used are Might G-d and not Almighty G-d. I would advise you to read the Hebrew word for Mighty, from my research it is 'Gibbowr' people may thing its a little thing but in reality it isn't because..if you check what this word can be translated as it ranges from
1. strong, mighty n m
2. strong man, brave man, mighty man
"Source "

So this Gibbowr is a word which can be used for men, and we see now why Isaiah hasnt used ALMIGHTY which is only for G-d alone.

Also, lets look at the word here translated as G-d, El, this is famous, come on, this Refers to G-d but men too, you should know, any Christian knows what the Bible claims Jesus said on the Cross, Eli Eli... and people thought he was calling to a Man.
Also we see the bible uses this El, in single and plural to talk about Men.
Exodus 7:1 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Here it is the plural used to show Moses' position over Pharoe.

1. (plural)
1. rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
1. god, goddess
2. godlike one
3. works or special possessions of God
4. the (true) God
5. God
Source

Also, In Psalsm 82:1 it says 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.' with the word El Source

This El aparently carries the meaning of:

1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power

Source

Now after all that we can also look at the other terms such as 'Everlasting Father'

Now some example of the term everlasting or forever used with regards to people in the Bible:

Ezekiel 37:25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

And the term father.

Genesis 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

Again this is a simple mistake of people taking things out of a vacuum, the language used was clear to the Jews the recipients, Almighty to them was much more than just Mighty so with the world El and YHWH. It would be like me writing a letter saying, 'your an angel and a prince' and someone in another country centruies later reading it taking it in a vacuum without the understanding of my time and saying 'look, see his friend was an angel with wings from heaven and a prince of heaven' see what I mean?

Plus, I would like to state that this Prophecy says, "name shall be called" so these are names, not what the person is, There is a difference between someone being called, G-d's strenght and actually them being G-d's real strenght. This propechy was only saying this persons names, it doesn't say 'He WILL BE MIGHT GOD'.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

Again, This was a name, this states 'he will be called', its a name.

I have also answered this before:

Matthew 1:32 - 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

My Response: Ok, Emmanuel meaning G-d is with us. How does this mean Jesus is G-d? Because Jesus is going to be with them, that means Jesus is G-d since Jesus is with them? This is scripture read within the context of scripture.

Luke 1:27 - 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Does this now mean that G-d was with her in human form and that he was right there, because it says ‘the Lord is with thee’??? Just as Emmanuel is G-d is with us?

(Just as an extra thing, read a little on and see: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David’

‘He, talking about Jesus, shall be great, and, Jesus, shall be called Son of the Highest: and the Lord G-d shall give him..,’ So The Lord G-d is going to give Jesus something, now if you believe Jesus is G-d, you will believe: The Lord G-d is going to Give The Lord God something. (Mark says, Follow G-d with all your mind)

So I ask, when the angel said G-d is with you, was G-d with Mary in physical form, I think not, I believe he meant in favor, since he did say ‘you have found favor with the Lord. This is echoed in Biblical talk, look at Exodus 17:7 - 7 And he called the name of the place Massah and Mer'ibah, because of the faultfinding of the children of Israel, and because they put the LORD to the proof by saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"

Did they mean literally? Or were they asking if he was in favor of them, if he was supporting them? I urge yall to read it. Also view the book of Numbers 14:42 and 43 - 42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies. 43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

The reason here is given: the LORD will not be with you because you turned away from Him. Was He physically with them? Or was he with them in favor and blessings?

Look at wars, for examples, Muslims probably believe G-d is with them, and so do Jews, have either of them seen Him? Nope. Yet they believe he is with them.

And I will ask you to just show us where Jesus was called Immanuel, if there isn't a place where he was then I mean, isn't that an unfufilled prophecy?

Plus we can go into it from another angle, which others have:

The verse quoted is: 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Any one who has studied at school, by the Grace of The Most High, will tell you that when a verse starts with 'Therefore', it is more than likely connected with the previous.

Read the CONTEXT:

Verse 3Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

4And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

5Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying,

6Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal:

7Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

9And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

10Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

11Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

12But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

13And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This is a whole different topic betwen people.

Another thing, the word virgin here, has been deemed not to be a right translation. Thus the RVS, revised by 30 scholars backed by 50 denomination and so on, changed it to (well I cant find the RVS online but in mine at home it says) ' a young woman' with a foot note saying virgin' hard to let go of old fashions.
Strong's dictionary also says it means:
1. virgin, young woman
1. of marriageable age
2. maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)

Source

So we see the attempt here, its basically saying, nowhere does can it be proven that the young woman is not a virgin. Lol what logic.
According to this dictionary this appears in several places, I'll cross-reference to see what the RVS has translated the word in these places:
Genesis 24:43 'young woman'
Exodus 2:8 'girl'
Pslams 68:25 'maidens'
Proverbs 30:19 'maidens'
Solomon 1:3 'maindens
Solomon 6:8 'maidens'

Plus I dont think the NIV also uses Virgin for any of these instances except...you guessed it, Isaiah 7:14, how convinient.

So the RVS shows no virgins for this word, except in the footnote at Isaiah 7:14 I guess we can see, the holding onto old ways.

And maiden is generally used for a young woman or girl, and yes it can mean virgin, since a young woman are.

The arguement comes at the fact that there is a clear cut word for Virgin in the Hebrew and it is only logical that if Isaiah wanted to convey a virgin birth he would have used it.

All the view points are from different aspects, some stronger than the others, but Isaiah 7:14 sure doesnt prove anyone's divinity.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

I will try answer this really quickly.

Jesus had nothing to do with Jesse, because your probably refering to his Geneolgy, lets look at them.
Matthew 1:16 says:16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luke 3:23 says: 23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

So Jesus was not the from the Flesh of Jesse, or Seed of his, since his Mother is not reported to have been, and unless your saying his mother and father came together and formed Jesus which I think would contradict the Bible then your confused.
Jesus had no father Christians tell me, yet he is the Seed of David.

See when you also say 'Jesus used this concept...' I personally think Jesus knew the background of Biblical text, such as the Levitical Songs, so when people misquote things and say 'jesus said look it says 'My Lord said to his Lord' and so on it is showing that you think Jesus has no sense.

I will just paste what a Jewish website says:

"The major prooftext here is verse 1:

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV)

This is a perfect example of the old adage "it loses something in the translation." At first glance, this would seem like G-d is talking to Himself. However, this simply is not the case. The name, which KJV capitalizes above, is the designation for the four-letter sacred name of G-d. The "Lord" which is not entirely capitalized above is the Hebrew word "adoni," which means "my master." In modern spoken Hebrew, it is used as one would use the word "sir" in English.

King David, while not allowed to build the Temple, did everything he could to prepare the way for it to be built, and among the things he did was compile the book of Psalms to be sung by the Levites in the Temple. This Psalm was meant to be sung by the Levites, and thus reflects their point of view, for they would call their king "adoni.""

Source

So according to them, this logically refers to Songs which David as their lord, as in sir, told them to sing, so you can imagine the people Singing, 'Almighty G-d told my lord, aka King David'

But even if we still wanna take that this second Lord is Jesus then IT STILL DOES NOT PROVE JESUS IS G-D, it proves Jesus is at a higher more respected place than David, but the term lord does not just mean G-d as others were called lord, and as the site says it can mean Sir and so on.
So even if we take that David called jesus Lord, This doesnt prove Jesus is G-d. Plus Jesus is sitting at Almighty God's right hand TWo DIFFErENT PEOPLE.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

Anyhow, this is running my pc slow, keeps freezin and all.
I hope people now see why some can be reluctant at answering all those propositions put forward because they take a while to answer and it can feel antagonising.

All praise be to the G-d of Abraham, peace be upon Abraham.
May Jesus son of Mary be immunie from lies ascribed to him by Anyone, and may peace be upon Both Mary and Jesus.

Any mistakes are mine and please be patient with me and report any mistakes I have done so I may rectify them.

Peace be upon yall
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