Eternal Heaven - Spiritual Form

[Pankaja dasa]

-

Hello again to Muslims on this forum, looks very nice.

I been trying to figure something out, it says in many Scriptures of the World.
That when you attain to the heavenly kingdom. You stay there forever (like forever man).

Now many believe God to be Impersonal (no form). That is okay to a point I guess. But
when you consider how we mere mortals can have an eternal form in Heaven, yet God
doesn't seem to be able to. It seems like a bit of a farce. If God is indeed unlimited surely
He can have form? If He cannot then how can you say God is unlimited?

Putting a limit on God is not religion at all. So this has been on my mind.
I hope Muslims here can offer a nice reply.

Pankaja das
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[- Qatada -]

Hey.


We as muslims do believe that Allaah Almighty does have a form, and the believers will be able to see Allaah in paradise, and that will be the best blessing for the believer, due to the fact that they believed in Him in this life (when they were not able to see Him.)


Peace.

[F.Y.]

Hello Pankaja Dasa! :)

This post might be a bit long - but please have patience - I hope it answers your query. :)

The Concept Of God In Islam

The most concise definition of God in Islam is given in the four verses of Surah Ikhlaas which is Chapter 112 of the Qur’an:

«"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."»

To Muslims, this four line definition of Almighty God serves as the touchstone of the study of God. Any candidate to divinity must be subjected to this ‘acid test' and since the attributes of The Creator given in this chapter are unique, false gods and pretenders to divinity can be easily dismissed using these verses.

i) The first criterion is «"Say, He is Allah, one and only". »
Can there be more than one god? This verse tells us that The Creator is the only one who has total and absolute power, unique in His names and attributes.

ii) The second criterion is, «'Allah is absolute and eternal’»
The word that is translated as “The Eternal, Absolute” from Arabic is something that can be attributed only to The Creator, as all other existence being temporal or conditional. It also means that Allah is not dependant on any person or thing, but all persons and things are dependant on Him.

iii) The third criterion is «‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’».
This means God was not born, nor does He give birth and share his divinity with others. Nor does He have a family or relationship with another being.

(iv) The fourth test, - which is the most stringent - is, «"There is none like unto Him".»
The moment you can imagine or compare ‘God’ to anything, then he (the candidate to divinity) is not God. It is not possible to conjure up a mental picture of the One True God because of the simple fact, as creation, we only know creation.

Many are tempted to make anthropomorphic comparisons of God. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger, the famous body builder and Hollywood actor, who won the title of ‘Mr. Universe - the strongest man in the world.'
Suppose someone says “Almighty God is a thousand times stronger than Arnold Schwarzenegger.” This is a false claim to make because the moment you can compare any entity to God, whether the comparison is to Schwarzenegger or to King Kong, whether it is a thousand times or a million times stronger, it fails the Qur’anic criterion, «"There is none like unto Him".»

Thus, the ‘acid test’ cannot be passed by anyone except the One True God. The following verse of the Glorious Qur’an conveys a similar message: «"No vision can grasp Him but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."»[Al-Qur’an 6:103]


By what name do we call God?

The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, 'Allah', instead of the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with.

For example, If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam.
Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty.


Unity of God.

Some say that the existence of more than one God is not illogical. Let us point out to them that if there were more than one God, they would dispute with one another, each god trying to fulfill his will against the will of the other gods. This can be seen in the mythology of the polytheistic and pantheistic religions.
If a ‘God’ is defeated or unable to defeat the others, he is surely not the one true God. Also popular among polytheistic religions is the idea of many Gods, each having different responsibilities. Each one would be responsible for a part of man’s existence e.g. a Sun-God, a Rain-God, etc. This indicates that one ‘God’ is incompetent of certain acts and moreover he is also ignorant of the other Gods’ powers, duties, functions and responsibilities. There cannot be an ignorant and incapable God. If there were more than one God it would surely lead to confusion, disorder, chaos and destruction in the universe. But the universe is in complete harmony. The Glorious Qur’an says: «"If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! But glory to Allah, The Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 21:22]

If there were more than one God, they would have taken away what they created. The Qur’an says: «"No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free)from the (sort of) things yhey attribute to Him!" »[Al-Qur’an 23:91]
Thus the existence of one True, Unique, Supreme, Almighty God, is the only logical concept of God.


God does not take human form:

Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.

Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do? I write an instruction manual. "In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get ruined". This instruction manual lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.

Similarly, our Lord and Creator, Allah need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual. The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.
If you allow me to compare human beings with machines, I would say humans are more complicated than the most complex machines in the world. Even the most advanced computers, which are extremely complex, are pale in comparison to the physical, psychological, genetic and social factors that affect individual and collective human life.
The more advanced the machine, greater is the need for its instruction manual. By the same logic, don’t human beings require an instruction manual by which to govern their own lives?

Therefore Allah does not come down personally for giving the instruction manual. He chooses a man amongst men to deliver the message and communicates with him at a higher level through the medium of revelations. Such chosen men are called messengers and prophets of God.


God does not perform ungodly acts:

The attributes of Almighty God preclude any evil since God is the source of justice, mercy and truth. God can never be thought of as doing an ungodly act. Hence we cannot imagine God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"Allah is never unjust in the least degree."»[Al-Qur’an 4:40] God can be unjust if He chooses to be so, but the moment God does injustice, He ceases to be God.


God does not make mistakes

God can make mistakes if He wants to, but He does not make mistakes because making a mistake is an ungodly act. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs."»[Holy Qur’an 20:52] The moment God makes a mistake, he ceases to be God.


God does not forget

God can forget if He wants to. But God does not forget anything because forgetting is an ungodly act, which reeks of human limitations and failings. The Qur’an says: «"…my Lord never errs, nor forgets."»[Al-Qur’an 20:52]


God only performs Godly acts:

The Islamic concept of God is that God has power over all things. The Qur’an says in several places (Al -Qur’an 2:106; 2:109; 2:284; 3:29; 16:77; and 35:1): «"For verily Allah has power over all things"»
Further, the Glorious Qur’an says:«"Allah is the doer of all that He intends."»[Al-Qur’an 85:16] We must keep in mind that Allah intends only Godly acts and not ungodly acts.


Attributes of God:

To Allah belong the most beautiful names. The Qur’an says: «"Say: Call upon Allah, or Call upon Rahman (The Most Merciful): By whatever name you call Upon Him, (it is well): For to Him belong The Most Beautiful Names."[»Al-Qur’an 17:110]
A similar message regarding the beautiful names of Allah is repeated in the Qur’an in Surah Al-A’raf (7:180), in Surah Taha (20:8) and in Surah Al-Hashr (59:24).
The Qur’an gives no less than ninety-nine different attributes to Almighty Allah. The Qur’an refers to Allah as Ar-Rahman (Most Gracious), Ar-Raheem (Most Merciful) and Al-Hakeem (All Wise) among many other names.
http://beconvinced.com/en/article.ph...mes%20Of%20God

Peace :)

[ummAbdillah]

:sl:
manshallah sis :)
jazak allah khair for the info
:sl:

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[Pankaja dasa]

God does not take human form:

Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human. Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.

You see this is the point I made before. You said God doesn't take a Human Form. But you as a human will have an eternal form. ? How is that even possible. Anyway, at least one person agree with me above. Which makes me feel better.

Let's see what you have to say!

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Look at this http://www.islam101.com/sociology/spiritualPath.htm

[Pankaja dasa]

Look at this http://www.islam101.com/sociology/spiritualPath.htm

It says God cannot be a man. I mean everybody in Islam as and were person(s), all the Prophets. So ..

Kinda makes me think. God is also a person, Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being. Then a person will say 'how can a person (medium sized) be God? Then I suppose you have your answer. That's totally powerful. Unimaginable.

[------]

That's totally powerful. Unimaginable.

Well Allah is exactly that.

[- Qatada -]

God doesn't have to be a 'person' to be a Creator. We as humans are just an invention of God, and we won't know His real form until we enter paradise insha'Allaah (if Allaah wills.)


Our minds are too basic to comprehend the vision of God, and this is why our faith in the unseen is what will be part of our salvation.


This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.


(Qur'an 02: 02-05)



Peace.

[Pankaja dasa]

God doesn't have to be a 'person' to be a Creator. We as humans are just an invention of God, and we won't know His real form until we enter paradise insha'Allaah (if Allaah wills.)

Peace.

Invention. :giggling:

That's probably pure speculation on your part.

[F.Y.]

Invention. :giggling:

That's probably pure speculation on your part.

No, I don't believe he is speculating at all. He is explaining that we are the creation of God.

Another of your quotes:
It says God cannot be a man. I mean everybody in Islam as and were person(s), all the Prophets. So ..

Kinda makes me think. God is also a person, Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being. Then a person will say 'how can a person (medium sized) be God? Then I suppose you have your answer. That's totally powerful. Unimaginable.

How did you get to your thinking that God is also a person? Can you please be more specific?

Also, we don't believe that God takes a human form - but we do believe he has a form.

Peace

[Pankaja dasa]

Vedic Scriptures in Arabic!"

In Hindisum (I have to call it that). Everything is thought to have form. Even the Sun Planet we consider it to be inhanitated by people who have bodies that can live thier. Like fish live in water but we can't.

So we consider God to have a human form. But His form is unlike ours in that He was always exsisting. Hindisum is vast like an ocean, and has many different sections of philosophy.

[F.Y.]

Vedic Scriptures in Arabic!"

In Hindisum (I have to call it that). Everything is thought to have form. Even the Sun Planet we consider it to be inhanitated by people who have bodies that can live thier. Like fish live in water but we can't.

So we consider God to have a human form. But His form is unlike ours in that He was always exsisting. Hindisum is vast like an ocean, and has many different sections of philosophy.

Hello :)

I appreciate your information, thanks for that. I agree with your statement that God was always existing.

• Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
• According to your belief, where is God?
• If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?

Would you be willing to accept that the sun, moon, trees and humans have been created by God? Yes or no?

This is what the Qur'an says about the issue:

And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
Basically that means - worship the Creator, the all-powerful, who created everything and not the creation.

Please do explain what you think.
Peace.

[Pankaja dasa]

Hello :)

I appreciate your information, thanks for that. I agree with your statement that God was always existing.

• Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
• According to your belief, where is God?
• If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?

Would you be willing to accept that the sun, moon, trees and humans have been created by God? Yes or no?

This is what the Qur'an says about the issue:

And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
Basically that means - worship the Creator, the all-powerful, who created everything and not the creation.

Please do explain what you think.
Peace.

It says in our Scriptures that God doesn't need to eat (He has a spiritual body). You say and think that God cannot eat etc, but you eat everyday?

[F.Y.]

Yes, thanks to God who made my digestive system and my mouth, teeth, etc I am able to eat everyday. It is God who created the system - in our belief, He does not eat/drink or act as humans have to.


Allah revealed in Surah Ikhlas (S: 112) as follows:

In the name Of Allah, The most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

Say, Allah is One,
Allah The Everlasting, The Eternal,
He has not given birth and was not born,
And no one is comparable to Him

I just wanted to clarify, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say - do you believe God is human or do you believe he is a spirit?
Can you please answer the questions I wrote in the dot points in the previous post, so we can have a more meaningful conversation?

Thanks again.
Peace

[Pankaja dasa]

Hello :)

• Let's consider this. If God has a human form, do you mean that he eats, sleeps, drinks, urinates and so on?
• According to your belief, where is God?
• If, as you have explained, God is human and we are also human, and if you believe God is in everything, does that give people the right to worship ....each other?

1. God can eat if He wants to, eating is a type of enjoyment (nice, food etc) of cource God can eat.
2. God lives in His abode. (spiritual abode)
3. A person is great according to His realization of God. That's recogzined universally, we worship Gods servants more because His our only link (not url!) to God.

:)

[F.Y.]

1. God can eat if He wants to, eating is a type of enjoyment (nice, food etc) of cource God can eat.
2. God lives in His abode. (spiritual abode)
3. A person is great according to His realization of God. That's recogzined universally, we worship Gods servants more because His our only link (not url!) to God.

:)

Hello

Let us consider this again. We as Muslims, when talking about the characteristics of God, judge according to the Quranic verses that I told you in my previous post. There is none like unto Him
So, if you believe God can eat - and you also believe that He has human form - it must stand to reason that He also urinates/goes to the toilet/defecates.This is natural to humans right? When you eat - well, the food has to go somewhere....
That is a very serious thing to consider - do you think it makes sense that you associate God with something as filthy as going to the toilet?

I agree with you that a person is great according to his realisation of God. In Islam, we say no one is better than another person unless he is more pious or God-fearing. Only God can judge a person and only God knows who is more pious and who has more realisation of Him. Do you agree?

So because of this, you say you worship humans too because they are your 'link' to God? How can you consider who "has more realisation of God"? Only God knows who had more realisation of Him. For example, say you thought one person was very good and had more realisation of God, so you worshipped him - then what if you found out he really was a bad person and was only pretending to be good? What is the consequence of this?

How can you worship God's servants more than you worship God Himself? Don't you think God has more right to be worshipped? Who gave life to you? - God. Who created everyone? - God. Who keeps us breathing each day? - God. Who takes our life away? - God. So why is it that you worship someone else, besides God? In your belief, can you not have a direct link to God?Why/why not?

I agree with you that God lives in his spiritual abode. Allah tells us clearly in the Quran that He created the universe in six "yawm" (periods of time) and then He "astawah 'ala al Arsh" (rose up, above His Throne).


I hope you can get back to me
Thanks and Peace :)

[Pankaja dasa]

God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?

How can you worship God's servants more than you worship God Himself? Don't you think God has more right to be worshipped? Who gave life to you? - God. Who created everyone? - God. Who keeps us breathing each day? - God. Who takes our life away? - God. So why is it that you worship someone else, besides God? In your belief, can you not have a direct link to God?Why/why not?

It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists. If it were not for them I would have followed Darwinism, Newton etc. You asked how do we know a person is man of God. I don't know if I am capable of explaining something like it but we have a disciplic succession (spiritual lineage). It's pretty old. The spiritual masters come from around 5000 years ago to the present day, and the knowledge has not changed with it. If a person from that line (it's a spiritual line, not material bodies). Then we can judge who the person (called an Acharya) usually is. By His activities and His preaching and or devotion. Especially His characteristic’s, He has to be following 100% everything. Only then is the person called a Guru. Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about. Who don't follow anything, but they have mystic powers (this is acquired easily by devotion to God). But the result is you become bereft of devotion to God, you simply have powers. I think I made my point, not really sure.

[- Qatada -]

Pankaja dasa, do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?

[Pankaja dasa]

Pankaja dasa, do you have any evidence to support what you're saying?

What are you referring to? The disiplic succession you mean? What do you want me to do, go back in time or something?

The Spiritual Masters are the evidence, and knowledge is always eternal, 5000 years is nothing.

We have the full list of the spiritual masters, from 5000 years. But only the very prominent ones are mentioned. (acharyas). We do have a lot of evidence, such as places in India (5000 year old temples etc). Can all be verified. But as it is. It's also a matter of faith, some people even after getting so much evidence. Still don't take it. So what can be done for them?

[_Mujahida]

dear pankaja

if god is a human like us, wht makes him the god i mean human make mistakes all the time, so for that u cant say that god is a human and i belive that god doesn't hav a form of a human wht os ever

[F.Y.]

Hello:)

God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?

I'm not saying the human form is bad. I am saying God is not human - but He did create us as humans. We as humans appreciate the body God gave us - we don't hate it. But He has already told us that He is not human.
Our concept of God doesnt involve Him being a human. We also believe He is eternal. One of the attributes/characteristics of Allah, is that He is "As-Samad" - meaning "The Eternal" - he always was, and he always will be.

It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists Well, what about the first person who was on Earth? How did they find out about God if there were no other 'devotees' at the time?
It is clearly not only because of devotees that we know God exists. If you look at trees, birds, humans, the miracle of life, etc, it would seem logical that these creations have a creator. Clearly, just looking at people worshipping God does not support the idea that God exists. There are other factors too which show us that God exists.

Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about
That's exactly what I am saying. Only God knows who is a true worshipper right? If i understood you correctly before, you said you worship these devotees too. So how can you worship these humans, who have faults, and who make mistakes? Isn't it true that only God is perfect? So it would make sense to worship God alone, doesn't it?

Thanks for your reply and I hope you can explain further,
Peace

[Pankaja dasa]

Hello:)

God doesn't need to do what you said since His body is spiritual. (eternal). But He can if He wants to. Why are you trying to say human form is bad? Do you hate your own body so much?

I'm not saying the human form is bad. I am saying God is not human - but He did create us as humans. We as humans appreciate the body God gave us - we don't hate it. But He has already told us that He is not human.
Our concept of God doesnt involve Him being a human. We also believe He is eternal. One of the attributes/characteristics of Allah, is that He is "As-Samad" - meaning "The Eternal" - he always was, and he always will be.

It's only because of devotees of God we find out God even exists Well, what about the first person who was on Earth? How did they find out about God if there were no other 'devotees' at the time?
It is clearly not only because of devotees that we know God exists. If you look at trees, birds, humans, the miracle of life, etc, it would seem logical that these creations have a creator. Clearly, just looking at people worshipping God does not support the idea that God exists. There are other factors too which show us that God exists.

Unfortunately and I don't like to say this as it pains me, but there are many charlatan Guru's about
That's exactly what I am saying. Only God knows who is a true worshipper right? If i understood you correctly before, you said you worship these devotees too. So how can you worship these humans, who have faults, and who make mistakes? Isn't it true that only God is perfect? So it would make sense to worship God alone, doesn't it?

Thanks for your reply and I hope you can explain further,
Peace

We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. But it says when you please such a person God is more pleased. But the spiritual master always thinks Himself humble servant of God.

[F.Y.]

Hello again,


I would like to remind you of something you said in a previous post:
Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being.

But now you say:

We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. But it says when you please such a person God is more pleased. But the spiritual master always thinks Himself humble servant of God.

These two statements above contradict each other. First you said God is supreme and most powerful and "Lord of all beings", but then you said He was not the "master".

Are you now implying that God's servants have more knowledge and power than almighty God Himself? Does this make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I have understood you correctly, you seem to be saying that God is not all-powerful because you deny him to be the "master". You seem to be saying that His creation is more powerful than God Himself.
How can that be? Surely if God created his servants and the universe, He is all-powerful and the master of all things? Do you agree with this?

Of course, we are the humble servants of God. Everyone is a servant - we don't worship servants, we worship almighty God who created the servant. What you have said implies that God is not in control. The truth is, we are not in control of God - we are servants, He is in control of us and everything in the universe. Do you agree?

I know what you are saying when you say: when you please such a person God is more pleased. In Islam, we say that to help another person or to even smile at another person is an act of kindness and like an act of charity, and God is very pleased with this person.

I'd appreciate it if you could answer my queries.
Peace

[Pankaja dasa]

Hello again,


I would like to remind you of something you said in a previous post:
Supreme Person. Imagine a person as the Lord of all beings. That's your God conception right their. Over lord. Supreme being.

But now you say:



These two statements above contradict each other. First you said God is supreme and most powerful and "Lord of all beings", but then you said He was not the "master".

Are you now implying that God's servants have more knowledge and power than almighty God Himself? Does this make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I have understood you correctly, you seem to be saying that God is not all-powerful because you deny him to be the "master". You seem to be saying that His creation is more powerful than God Himself.
How can that be? Surely if God created his servants and the universe, He is all-powerful and the master of all things? Do you agree with this?

Of course, we are the humble servants of God. Everyone is a servant - we don't worship servants, we worship almighty God who created the servant. What you have said implies that God is not in control. The truth is, we are not in control of God - we are servants, He is in control of us and everything in the universe. Do you agree?

I know what you are saying when you say: when you please such a person God is more pleased. In Islam, we say that to help another person or to even smile at another person is an act of kindness and like an act of charity, and God is very pleased with this person.

I'd appreciate it if you could answer my queries.
Peace

Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been?

[------]

If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been

Whats ur point?

[Pankaja dasa]

Whats ur point?

What do you think my point is?

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't, but if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? So we pay first respects to His devotee then God. It says in our scriptures this is the process.

[F.Y.]

Hello Pankaja dasa,
Thank you once again for replying to my posts and for asking about the Islamic view of God.

(The words in dark black are things you have said in your previous posts).

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't,

Actually you did say he wasn't great. Need I remind you? We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. Thats what you said - this implies you believe He is not all-great.

if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? You mean....God's devotees are in control of this world? Did His devotees create the world and the human brain? I dont think so. I think you should be asking, "If it were not for God, where would everybody be?" - God, the all-mighty has given you life, not his devotees - it makes sense to be grateful to God - and not to other humans who, need I make it explicit, did not create the heavens or the Earth. Devotees are there to help remind us about our purpose in life and to encourage one another to do good deeds. They are not there to be worshipped as God themselves.

So we pay first respects to His devotee then God So you mean you worship humans first - who themselves are in great need of God, then God comes second? Doesn't it make sense to worship God alone, who created these "devotees", humans, in the first place? Why worship the creation (who themselves are full of faults and need God) when you should be worshipping the Creator?

Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. So, instead of engaging in constructive argument of ideas, you decide to attack the person? That isn't very productive, is it?

If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been? Thank you for asking this question and for enquriing about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I sometimes ask myself the same question you did, as I think all Muslims do. Indeed, Muhammad (pbuh) was a mercy sent for all mankind. Not only for Arabs or Africans - but he was sent by God as a messenger, to convey the message of Islam and to tell people to worship One God, as did the Prophets before him, like Jesus (pbuh), David (pbuh), Moses (pbuh) and so on. The Prophets are not worshipped. They are human beings who came to teach about the Oneness of God. They are very special human beings, chosen by God to convey His message. Indeed, you are right. Without the example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to follow and knowledge of his actions, we would be in a state of darkness.

Thank you once again, for your prompt reply.
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace

[Pankaja dasa]

Hello Pankaja dasa,
Thank you once again for replying to my posts and for asking about the Islamic view of God.

(The words in dark black are things you have said in your previous posts).

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't,

Actually you did say he wasn't great. Need I remind you? We don't think the spiritual master to be God Himself. Thats what you said - this implies you believe He is not all-great.

if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? You mean....God's devotees are in control of this world? Did His devotees create the world and the human brain? I dont think so. I think you should be asking, "If it were not for God, where would everybody be?" - God, the all-mighty has given you life, not his devotees - it makes sense to be grateful to God - and not to other humans who, need I make it explicit, did not create the heavens or the Earth. Devotees are there to help remind us about our purpose in life and to encourage one another to do good deeds. They are not there to be worshipped as God themselves.

So we pay first respects to His devotee then God So you mean you worship humans first - who themselves are in great need of God, then God comes second? Doesn't it make sense to worship God alone, who created these "devotees", humans, in the first place? Why worship the creation (who themselves are full of faults and need God) when you should be worshipping the Creator?

Oh dear looks like you lost your commen sense. So, instead of engaging in constructive argument of ideas, you decide to attack the person? That isn't very productive, is it?

If it was not for Mohammed (pbuh) where would you have been? Thank you for asking this question and for enquriing about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I sometimes ask myself the same question you did, as I think all Muslims do. Indeed, Muhammad (pbuh) was a mercy sent for all mankind. Not only for Arabs or Africans - but he was sent by God as a messenger, to convey the message of Islam and to tell people to worship One God, as did the Prophets before him, like Jesus (pbuh), David (pbuh), Moses (pbuh) and so on. The Prophets are not worshipped. They are human beings who came to teach about the Oneness of God. They are very special human beings, chosen by God to convey His message. Indeed, you are right. Without the example of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to follow and knowledge of his actions, we would be in a state of darkness.

Thank you once again, for your prompt reply.
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace

Ah yes, I think what think is. You think God is all alone. His devotees are eternally with Him. So of cource they are dear to Him. We call these devotees Nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) but we are Nitya-baddha (eternally-conditioned). Sorry if I sound like I don't say much, I try not to think about it too much otherwise I will go on forever.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Putting a limit on God is not religion at all. So this has been on my mind. I hope Muslims here can offer a nice reply.

Pankaja das
-

Not a 'Muslim' but I'd like to take a shot at the title and this subject.

I view this in terms of 'Mirror-Mirror' which will probably confuse you, but let me explain. When you look in the mirror, which is the real you?

How do you answer this question? They are *both* you. One is merely a perfect reflection of the other... like your flesh and your soul.

Allah created form... and he is perfectly reflected in that form. We created the 'mirror' which is a 'form' we are perfectly reflected in.

Ninth Scribe

[Pankaja dasa]

Not a 'Muslim' but I'd like to take a shot at the title and this subject.

I view this in terms of 'Mirror-Mirror' which will probably confuse you, but let me explain. When you look in the mirror, which is the real you?

How do you answer this question? They are *both* you. One is merely a perfect reflection of the other... like your flesh and your soul.

Allah created form... and he is perfectly reflected in that form. We created the 'mirror' which is a 'form' we are perfectly reflected in.

Ninth Scribe

Yeah, in the Bible it says God made man in His image:)

Form is nice, but we die so we may think it's bad. But if we could be eternal then who would complain?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..

[PrIM3]

Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..

sounds so much like us to tell you the truth....

in our religion true God is not like His creations the Bible makes it perfectly clear... God can do wonders, mericles and God is ABSOLUTELY perfect there is no flaw in Him... which is also what Jesus is...
to learn about God I need to read His Word and pray to Him. basically have a relationship..

we don't worship the creation we worship the Creator.. which you can say the Word Created us or you can say the Father God created us through His word

[Pankaja dasa]

Salaam,

So Pankaja Dasa...
what you are saying is that

1) in yopur religion God can be a man....But in Islam we know Allah is not like his creation.

2) in your religion to learn about god you need to worship or revere some holy men and pray to them than to god..
In Islam we pray directly to Allah,no intermediary
We WORSHIP ALLAH..
we do not worship CREATION but worship the CREATOR..

No, what we do is

1. Pray to Spiritual master
2. Pray to God

I will tell you the reason.

1. Our LINK with God is the spiritual master (who is pure, because He is serving God).
2. God likes His dear servants more, so when we please them He is MORE pleased. If we (in Hindisum etc) try to approach God in a direct way it is impossible.

So please do not misunderstand what I am saying. ;D

NB: Getting rid of the spiritual master leaves people to misrepresent scriptures. Then we try to think we can read Holy Books and understand from 'them' (whoever they are) they become the athorities, and before you you can say 'who stole my holy book'. Religion as we know it becomes degraded.

[Zulkiflim]

No, what we do is

1. Pray to Spiritual master
2. Pray to God

I will tell you the reason.

1. Our LINK with God is the spiritual master (who is pure, because He is serving God).
2. God likes His dear servants more, so when we please them He is MORE pleased. If we (in Hindisum etc) try to approach God in a direct way it is impossible.

So please do not misunderstand what I am saying. ;D

NB: Getting rid of the spiritual master leaves people to misrepresent scriptures. Then we try to think we can read Holy Books and understand from 'them' (whoever they are) they become the athorities, and before you you can say 'who stole my holy book'. Religion as we know it becomes degraded.

Salaam,

No i dont think i misunderstood you

As you say clearly you pray to man thru god..
To pray to god you need an intercession....right..

Well i shall you that is YOUR religion..
And here is Islam..

We do not need an intermediary..we do not need an intercessor
We pray directly to ALLAH

As the Quran states,Allah is closer to us than the vein in our neck

16. And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).

[Pankaja dasa]

Salaam,

No i dont think i misunderstood you

As you say clearly you pray to man thru god..
To pray to god you need an intercession....right..

Well i shall you that is YOUR religion..
And here is Islam..

We do not need an intermediary..we do not need an intercessor
We pray directly to ALLAH

As the Quran states,Allah is closer to us than the vein in our neck

16. And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).

Okay.

[Pankaja dasa]

What I don't understand is, you pray to Mohammed (PBUH). Because without Him you'd be nowhere. Yet you feel is it okay to pray directly to God?

[The Ruler]

What I don't understand is, you pray to Mohammed (PBUH). Because without Him you'd be nowhere. Yet you feel is it okay to pray directly to God?

we dnt pray to Muhammad (saw) :? :?

yes ofcourse it is okay to pray to Allah directly as the Prophet once said dat we shud pray for ourselves not go to sum1 else.....but dnt take it in a different way n think dat we r not allowed to ask any1 else to pray for us or anyfin....das different :)

:w:

[Pankaja dasa]

we dnt pray to Muhammad (saw) :? :?

yes ofcourse it is okay to pray to Allah directly as the Prophet once said dat we shud pray for ourselves not go to sum1 else.....but dnt take it in a different way n think dat we r not allowed to ask any1 else to pray for us or anyfin....das different :)

:w:

:thankyou: So you don't pray to Mohammed (PBUH). You pray to Allah.

I know in Islam history you used to pray to Phophets to gain favour of God. The point I am making is you pray to Mohammed to gain the favour of God.

I shud go as I donnu seem ble to get muc answer ere.

[------]

Your saying God is great, all-great. I never said He wasn't, but if it were not for His devotees where would everybody be? So we pay first respects to His devotee then God.

Who created the Devotees?!?! :heated:

[------]

The point I am making is you pray to Mohammed to gain the favour of God.

Errr No. We pray to God.

I shud go as I donnu seem ble to get muc answer ere.

What kind of answer do u want?

[Pankaja dasa]

Who created the Devotees?!?! :heated:

Are you a devotee?

Let me ask you, if you wanted to see The prime minister, would you be able to go directly to him, or would you need to ask his secrtary?

Same way if you wanted to see God, or approach him. You think it's good to approach in direct way, or to goto his dear servant. His servant is eternally Gods. So don't you think God is more pleased that you receieved his servant ?

[Pankaja dasa]

Errr No. We pray to God.



What kind of answer do u want?

A good answer.

[------]

What the question?! DUH?!

[------]

Here is your answer.

Hey.


We as muslims do believe that Allaah Almighty does have a form, and the believers will be able to see Allaah in paradise, and that will be the best blessing for the believer, due to the fact that they believed in Him in this life (when they were not able to see Him.)


Peace.

[Pankaja dasa]

Here is your answer.

Very nice. So you do believe God has form:happy:

[------]

Yes he does. I repeat, Whats ur point?!

[Pankaja dasa]

In Our scriptures Gods form is descibed as -sac-cid-ananada. (eternal, blissful and full of knowledge). But it appears just like human-like. And some persons may not know.

The Vedic Scriptures descibe this, but mainly we have Bhagavad-gita. Which as spoken by Krishna 5000 years ago. It has everything Qu'ran has. The fact is was done before Qu'ran (not that it makes a difference). Should make people wonder. Knowledge is about God cannot be put only inside one book. So according to time and cicumstance we have Bhagavad-gita, and you have Qu'ran. But if you read Bhagavad-gita you can find similar things from Qu'ran. I am not trying to convert anybody here, but knowledge about God is unlimited. I know many Muslims who have read Bhagavad-gita and asked me some questions. It seems contradictory to many. But it's spiritual meanings I think nobody can deny it. Thx

http://www.krishnamedia.org/ebooks/SongofGod.htm

NB: Because Muslims talk mainly about impersonal aspect of God, coversion is never said. Only that Qu'ran does talk about God as being personal (with form).

In Hare Krishna, it says God is realized in 3 aspects. Impersonal, Localized and Personal. So it's a matter of knowledge about God. Not whos Books seems to be better. Knowledge about G.O.D. I hope this post didn't offend anyone.

[------]

But it appears just like human-like. And some persons may not know.

God is nothing like Human like, otherwise He would not be called God!

But if you read Bhagavad-gita you can find similar things from Qu'ran.

Does the BG describe the Trimurti (that includes Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva), or does it mainly describe The Ultimate God, Brahman?

[Pankaja dasa]

God is nothing like Human like, otherwise He would not be called God!


How do you know? You have never seen God? What do you base this claim on?

Does the BG describe the Trimurti (that includes Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva), or does it mainly describe The Ultimate God, Brahman?

It does describe this. Vishnu is the maintainer, Brahma the creator, and Shiva the destroyer. Brahman means so many different things. It can means soul, God etc. In this instance Brahman means that which prevades everything (God in His impersonal aspect). And we are also Brahman. But it says we are eternally amsa's (parts) of God. So the difference between us and God is that He is the whole (brahman) and we are His parts). But then it goes further to say Brahman (all-prevading aspect) is His energy, and that His form is the source of His Brahman (His personal rays from His transcendental body).

[------]

How do you know? You have never seen God? What do you base this claim on?

I base this claim on my faith and proof in the Qur'an and Hadith :)

It does describe this. Vishnu is the maintainer, Brahma the creator, and Shiva the destroyer. Brahman means so many different things. It can means soul, God etc. In this instance Brahman means that which prevades everything (God in His impersonal aspect). And we are also Brahman. But it says we are eternally amsa's (parts) of God. So the difference between us and God is that He is the whole (brahman) and we are His parts). But then it goes further to say Brahman (all-prevading aspect) is His energy, and that His form is the source of His Brahman (His personal rays from His transcendental body).

Yup. I've done a whole essay on the views of God in Hinduism in my essay for A Level RE :D

[Pankaja dasa]

I base this claim on my faith and proof in the Qur'an and Hadith :)



Yup. I've done a whole essay on the views of God in Hinduism in my essay for A Level RE :D

:? RE? Haha.

Yes. I didn't learn about God from R.E teacher (i admire their dedication to teach). But to know everything about every religion is a rare person indeed.

[------]

But to know everything about every religion is a rare person indeed.

Yup, but u can try to know about God and learn the religion as much as you can if you have interest in that sort of thing.(Like I do :D)

Peace.

[Pankaja dasa]

Yup, but u can try to know about God and learn the religion as much as you can if you have interest in that sort of thing.(Like I do :D)

Peace.

make sure you head don't explode;D hehe.

I read about Islam. And was quite nice.

I read Gita 7 years ago. And has changed my life ever since.

[------]

make sure you head don't explode hehe.

It won't. :p

I read about Islam. And was quite nice.

Ok. :thumbs_up

I read Gita 7 years ago. And has changed my life ever since.

If you read in as much depth in the Qur'an and Hadith, that will also change your life. :D

[Pankaja dasa]

It won't. :p



Ok. :thumbs_up



If you read in as much depth in the Qur'an and Hadith, that will also change your life. :D

yes, it can. Reading Bhagavad-gita has changed my life. Now I am running after God. Before I was away.

[------]

Now I am running after God. Before I was away.

That's good to hear. Have u read the Qur'an in detail by any chance?

[Pankaja dasa]

That's good to hear. Have u read the Qur'an in detail by any chance?

Yes. But like I said (the heading of this topic). I see it as talking about the Personal form of God.

[------]

Yes. But like I said (the heading of this topic). I see it as talking about the Personal form of God.

All good. :thumbs_up

[Pankaja dasa]

All good. :thumbs_up

You seem to change your signature often you trying to tell me something.:rant:

[------]

No No No, I often change my signature to show the beauty of the Qur'an. :rose:

It's nothing personal I assure you at oneness :p

Peace.

[Zulkiflim]

:thankyou: So you don't pray to Mohammed (PBUH). You pray to Allah.

I know in Islam history you used to pray to Phophets to gain favour of God. The point I am making is you pray to Mohammed to gain the favour of God.

I shud go as I donnu seem ble to get muc answer ere.

Salaam,

And it hought it was over LOLOL

No Muslim do not pray to Prophet Muhammad saw...we pray FOR prophet Muhammad saw

No muslim do to pray to the Kaabah..we pray in the DIRECTION of the Kaabah..

No Muslim do not pray to any man for INTERCESSION..For we know that Allah listen to all of CREATION..

Muslim do not pray to CREATION....we pray to the CREATOR>..

If in your reliogn you need an intermediary,casue you think god is denied to you then that is your religion...
So i hope that is claer,muslim do not need an intermediary...your need one..

Muslim say we directly closer to Allah,,,,you say you are indirectly linked to god..

So we are different....

[Pankaja dasa]

No No No, I often change my signature to show the beauty of the Qur'an. :rose:

It's nothing personal I assure you at oneness :p

Peace.

okay.

Anyway glad you accept God is Personal. Not that difficult was it?

Qu'ran says God will reveal Himself on day of judgement:

Qu'ran, Al Qalam, Surah 68, 42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,
==

Your scholers (whatever that means) say it means something else. Now who exactly ae these scholers? If you really did believe them then why do you have a forum? I think if there was somebody who actually knew (who had devotion). I can recite Bhagavad-gita like a parrot, chirping. And I know it well. But that doesn't mean I have any devotion for God. If you say reading is devotion I accept. But reading and actually REALIZING what it means is totally different thing. Everybody here is trying to realize! We don't want somebody who hasn't realized (scholers) telling us what we need to do. But like I said before, there are some rare souls who have surrendered unto God. And these people are the real scholers, and they SHOULD be heard.

[Alphaseed]

We Messianics Believe That God has a form, One to communicate directly with mankind as He appeared to Father Abraham in the Dessert and even ate with Abraham, We also believe He took A self created human body in order to pay for the sins of the World.
We Believe He will return soon with the same resurrected body and reign on earth for 1000 years, Blessed be The Name Of God YHWV>

[simply4allah]

We Messianics Believe That God has a form, One to communicate directly with mankind as He appeared to Father Abraham in the Dessert and even ate with Abraham, We also believe He took A self created human body in order to pay for the sins of the World.
We Believe He will return soon with the same resurrected body and reign on earth for 1000 years, Blessed be The Name Of God YHWV>

what is a messianic

[Pankaja dasa]

We Messianics Believe That God has a form, One to communicate directly with mankind as He appeared to Father Abraham in the Dessert and even ate with Abraham, We also believe He took A self created human body in order to pay for the sins of the World.
We Believe He will return soon with the same resurrected body and reign on earth for 1000 years, Blessed be The Name Of God YHWV>

Yes. How can God come as a human being? It seems impossible for us to understand. And I don't think anybody can except rare souls. In Hindiusim (sorry to use that term, as you can tell I cannot even spell it properly). It is actually called Sanatana-dharma, or eternal religion of the soul. Inside the Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by Krishna, it says God comes whenever their is a decline in religious principles. Or He sends His messangers. Krishna says the only way to understand God, (meaning Him), is by devotion. (Bhakti).

In this Bhagavad-gita as it is, Arjuna is the disicple of Krishna, and Krishna is acting as a spiritual master. Studying it (I have studied qu'ran). The message is the same. It says in this great book, that God is realized in 3 aspects, impersonal, localized and personal. Step-by-step. Muslims who believe pray to impersonal aspect, and those who see unity in all see God inside everyone. But higher then this (very very very rare persons). Pray to the personal aspect of God. Krishna says that to know the personal aspect of God is very rare. And only great souls know this aspect.

I mean using my commen sence, for me to think a person in human form, can be all-prevading and at the same time have form, and is reciding in a World which is spiritual, for me this is what God is about. All-powerful. I have trouble everyday trying to understand it. But when I think about it enough, then this is descibing GOD. Supremly powerful. So all I am saying is and trying to say here. Is that the personal aspect of God has to be considered Supreme. I don't think Muslims should have any problem to study Gita, since it is describing the personal aspect of God. And those who find it contradictory should not. It's the same as Qu'ran, (holy book).

www.vedabase.net

I had a good time being here actually, I am surprized that people didn't vilify me. And ban me. May God bless you all (and me!!)

[Alphaseed]

Yes. How can God come as a human being? It seems impossible for us to understand. And I don't think anybody can except rare souls. In Hindiusim (sorry to use that term, as you can tell I cannot even spell it properly). It is actually called Sanatana-dharma, or eternal religion of the soul. Inside the Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by Krishna, it says God comes whenever their is a decline in religious principles. Or He sends His messangers. Krishna says the only way to understand God, (meaning Him), is by devotion. (Bhakti).

In this Bhagavad-gita as it is, Arjuna is the disicple of Krishna, and Krishna is acting as a spiritual master. Studying it (I have studied qu'ran). The message is the same. It says in this great book, that God is realized in 3 aspects, impersonal, localized and personal. Step-by-step. Muslims who believe pray to impersonal aspect, and those who see unity in all see God inside everyone. But higher then this (very very very rare persons). Pray to the personal aspect of God. Krishna says that to know the personal aspect of God is very rare. And only great souls know this aspect.

I mean using my commen sence, for me to think a person in human form, can be all-prevading and at the same time have form, and is reciding in a World which is spiritual, for me this is what God is about. All-powerful. I have trouble everyday trying to understand it. But when I think about it enough, then this is descibing GOD. Supremly powerful. So all I am saying is and trying to say here. Is that the personal aspect of God has to be considered Supreme. I don't think Muslims should have any problem to study Gita, since it is describing the personal aspect of God. And those who find it contradictory should not. It's the same as Qu'ran, (holy book).

www.vedabase.net

I had a good time being here actually, I am surprized that people didn't vilify me. And ban me. May God bless you all (and me!!)

So in hinduism Who is God The Creator ?
Don't Hindus worship many Gods ?

[Pankaja dasa]

So in hinduism Who is God The Creator ?
Don't Hindus worship many Gods ?

Yes, we do. But they are mainly for people who have different desires. Like i.e if you wanted a good wife you would worship Usa (not U.s.a) It's name of demi-god. The reason why this is is because the demi-gods fullfil your desires almost straight away or after a while. Then when they do you become attached to them. It says in Bhagavad-gita as it is, this. If you do this then your results are temporary. So many Hindus worship demi-gods, for all kinds of desires. So the mistake happens that these demi-gods are supreme. I think the same mistake happened in Islam years ago, when idols were worshipped, and many thought the idols (or demi-gods) are the best.

But Hindus are meant to worship God not for material desires (it says this in Bhagavad-gita as it is). It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gita but their is also a concection in that, Krishna says those who are unintelligent worship the demi-gods. Even though this verse is inside the Bhagavad-gita, because we all have desires. Of course we shall worship dem-gods. I used to do this.!

So in answer to your question, there is only one God in Hindusium. One Supreme God. But He has many agents (demi-gods). I hope that answers your question, sorry if I sound preachy. It's 4am!!

[Alphaseed]

Why Would God Need Many Agents, Isn't God all powerful, all knowledgeable.

So why Pray to someone to tell god what we need.
This is something that Christians need to examine also, Yeshua(Jesus) Said pray to the father in my name, Not pray to me, or anything you ask in my name shall be granted.

The Bible says for their is only one mediator between God and men ,Jesus the man.
A mediator is like a lawyer, when you have sin is when you need him.

Shalom/salam.

[Pankaja dasa]

Why Would God Need Many Agents, Isn't God all powerful, all knowledgeable.

So why Pray to someone to tell god what we need.
This is something that Christians need to examine also, Yeshua(Jesus) Said pray to the father in my name, Not pray to me, or anything you ask in my name shall be granted.

The Bible says for their is only one mediator between God and men ,Jesus the man.
A mediator is like a lawyer, when you have sin is when you need him.

Shalom/salam.

Mohammed came to teach about God. Christ, in Hindisum we also have messangers.