Agreed or Disagreed?

[nimrod]

I say God can do anything he wishs other than act decitefully.

Do agree or do you disagree?

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi nimrod,
You've raised a very important question that is normally raised by Christians advocating the possibility of God becoming a man if he so chooses, and also by atheists who attempt to show that omnipotence is self-contradictory (the famous question on God lifting a rock).

Let me ask you nimrod, can God create an uncreated being?

And why the exception when it comes to being deceitful?

Regards

[nimrod]

A couple of very good questions Ansar Al-'Adl.

First off I will say that if God wasn’t “good” then man would have been wiped out long time ago.

If you are “good” and you don’t have to answer to anyone, you won’t act deceitfully, the two are in incompatible.

Your question of God creating an un-created being:

That may seem at first glance may seem to be like the question, if God can lift any rock, can he create a rock he can’t lift?

I think I can show why that isn’t a correct argument concerning God and Jesus both being an un-created being.

What do you think?

To be a little less cryptic:

If you are a house that has always been, (un-created) and you add a room. Did you create a house, or, did you add a room?

If God, long before Adam or the Angels came about, created a role for him self (Several roles no less) did God create a role, or a God?

Thanks
Nimrod

[north_malaysian]

I say God can do anything he wishs other than act decitefully.

Do agree or do you disagree?

Thanks
Nimrod

God can do whatever he wants, but he gave assurance that he would never manifest himself as any of His creations because it'll show that He has similarities with his own creation. Imagine if God decide to be a cow? Of course he can be one. But why should he be un-powerful enough to be a cow and eat grass.

Why God wants to show the world that he is being tortured, crucified, being lied if it's only show his powerless!

:?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[QURBAN]

Peace to those who follow the guidance

Greetings Nimrod

If you are a house that has always been, (un-created) and you add a room. Did you create a house, or, did you add a room?

An uncreated house, why does it require an extra room, is it insufficient in its original form?

If God, long before Adam or the Angels came about, created a role for him self (Several roles no less) did God create a role, or a God?

The role he created has a beginning then how can this role be God, who has no beginning?

Kind Regards

Qurban
:)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i can tell that nimrod will say if god has no beginning isnt that as if he doesnt exist.



really this is one of those things humans cant comprehend.


"Allah does that which befits his majesty and surely his majesty is beyond comparison or comprehension"

:sl:

[PrIM3]

this is so random: but I would like to tell Abd'Majid that I like your Aviator( if that is what its called )

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

a simple question..

Did not Allah created the jinns/satan?
how is the nature of Satan who say he will mankinds enemy?
And Allah say for a time satan will try to deguile mankind.
Should have Allah have allowed it?

Did not the bible teaches that Satan temmpted Eve to tempt Adam to eat of the fruits of the tree?
If God is omnipotent and all wise and all knowing,would he have allowed Adam and Eve to be disgraced by being tempted?
Or even created Satan in the first place?

So it is simple,we muslim know that we tested constantly...do chrisitan/catholics believe that?
Yes but the supposedly false teaching of love has created many holes in their religon.

for one thing,many Chrisitan beleive that satan is god's adversay..thus equal to god...thus they already create a pantheon god in their worship...the 3 in one and the adversary...

Falsehood lead more into falsehood..

[PrIM3]

Salaam,

a simple question..

Did not Allah created the jinns/satan?
how is the nature of Satan who say he will mankinds enemy?
And Allah say for a time satan will try to deguile mankind.
Should have Allah have allowed it?

Did not the bible teaches that Satan temmpted Eve to tempt Adam to eat of the fruits of the tree?
If God is omnipotent and all wise and all knowing,would he have allowed Adam and Eve to be disgraced by being tempted?
Or even created Satan in the first place?

So it is simple,we muslim know that we tested constantly...do chrisitan/catholics believe that?
Yes but the supposedly false teaching of love has created many holes in their religon.

for one thing,many Chrisitan beleive that satan is god's adversay..thus equal to god...thus they already create a pantheon god in their worship...the 3 in one and the adversary...

Falsehood lead more into falsehood..

well its all about authority really... its not that we say satan is adversary but its that he has more authority than me or you... but with Christ Jesus I can tell Him what to do...
God did it so He might be able to show His love. from what I heard once I believe... since angels don't need to be saved from God or they don't live by faith which is a choice for you and me....

hope you know what I mean

[Nicola]

a simple question..

Did not Allah created the jinns/satan?

God didn't make them has such to begin with, they turned on God and became proud

how is the nature of Satan who say he will mankinds enemy?

Satans nature is very cunning and appears as an angel of light and very deceptive, he is also very proud. He mixes liars with truths to keep people away from knowing the one and only God. He defies God and despises truth and despises Jesus Christ.

And Allah say for a time satan will try to deguile mankind.
Should have Allah have allowed it?

Oh Yes of course God should allow it...Satan seives out the chaff from the wheat.

Did not the bible teaches that Satan tempted Eve to tempt Adam to eat of the fruits of the tree?

Yes

If God is omnipotent and all wise and all knowing,would he have allowed Adam and Eve to be disgraced by being tempted? Or even created Satan in the first place?

God gave us freewill...other wise we would be nothing but puppets...and that wasn't God intention for mankind...God wants obedience and love from mankind...and the ones who turn away from Satan, are the ones God has choosen...though we can't do this alone, no matter how we try, man (our flesh is weak) this is why as Christians we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and help us and when we walk in this path, it is impossible to sin...Jesus also took our sins away when we accepted him as our one and only saviour. So God sees us now has he does Jesus...sinless. Other wise he would turn his eyes from us.

So it is simple,we muslim know that we tested constantly...do chrisitan/catholics believe that?

Though we are tested constantly, it is impossible to sin if you let the Holy Spirit lead your life. If you stop letting Him lead you, you sin...simple.

He leads you away from all tempation, until we are santified and become Christ-like...which is what being a Christian means...and which was always Gods intention for us to become...sinless.

As born-again Christians we died with Christ when he died on the cross, for a born again Christian, we are now living with the dead here on earth.

Yes but the supposedly false teaching of love has created many holes in their religon.

Because you believe the gospels are corrupted? The Holy Spirit leads you to the only truth..Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit would do this...and He does, He will only ever confirm to you what is stated about Jesus is true.

For one thing,many Chrisitan beleive that satan is god's adversay..thus equal to god...thus they already create a pantheon god in their worship...the 3 in one and the adversary...

Falsehood lead more into falsehood..

Well they must be Christians who do not read and understand the Bible, because the Bible makes it quite plain that Satan is above mankind, but below God. You must also remember that Satan is at work within the church, leading people away from God thats his job...lots of false doctrine is around...if it isn't in the Bible it isn't from God.

Jesus tells us he is the only way to get to the Father...what he says goes and when Christians choose to believe mans doctrine over Gods word..they will be condemmed at their second death Jesus makes that quiet plain.

[azim]

I say God can do anything he wishs other than act decitefully.

Do agree or do you disagree?

Thanks
Nimrod

Answered simply - God can do anything - but will not do anything that stops him from being God (i.e. lying, deceiving, becoming human...).

[nimrod]

North Malaysian, this is the way I see it:
God decides what God will and won’t do.
As to why God does what he does, God offers scripture for guidance concerning that question.

One of the things Jesus came to teach us is “Do unto your fellow man as you would have done to you”. Jesus said that "all of the Law and the prophets hang on that tenet".

Jesus taught that "it is not good enough to just love your Muslim brother, but that you are to also love your enemy".

Jesus taught the principal of "turning the other cheek when you are struck".

Jesus taught us that "we should submit to God in all things".

Jesus taught that "it isn’t sacrifice that God finds pleasing, rather it is a sincere apology".
An “I am sorry and I will try my best to not do it again”.

The ultimate “I am sorry” is to give up everything you have to try and make it right. That includes your life if need be.

The ultimate “Wrong” you can do is to take an innocent mans life.

God allowed the sacrifice of innocent animals to show those principals to mankind.

God refused to sacrifice an innocent man, so he/Jesus became a man to be the ultimate “I am sorry” for all of mankind. Jesus gave everything he had, even his life in order for mankind to be reconciled with Jesus/God in Heaven.

In other words, God demanded the highest degree of “I am sorry” and he provided that “I am sorry” for us. God showed us just how far God is willing to go if we will just try to do right.

What is that “Right thing to do”? "Know God that is God with all your heart and Love your fellow man".

God doesn’t allow credit for what God does to be given to another:

That is why God sent Prophets to tell what God was going to do. No man could take credit for it, because the scripture was given long before a man could have set events in motion.

The God sent the Prophets to the people but many times refused to listen to the Prophets. Many times even when they believed the Prophets, they still refused to take correction.
They were a “stiff-necked” people. They had refused, repeatedly, to become “as a nation” what wished them to become. God spoke plainly to Moses and Moses spoke plainly to the people. The people refused to listen to plainly spoken instruction, so God offered his instruction in cryptic language. Often times it was not till years later that, the full extent of, God’s words were understood. But once the cryptic scripture was fulfilled, the final understanding was undeniable.

That is why the scripture given, before Jesus became a man, is cryptic as to God’s plan, yet after Jesus was resurrected and the sacrifice had been made and no man could try to take credit for it, the scripture plainly states Jesus is God.

Jesus said “Why do you ask me to show you the Father, when you see me you see the Father".
“Go forth and baptize men in the “name” of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” for the forgiveness of sins. Not “names”, but rather, “The Name” singular not plural.

God is One.

That is why your “Why God wants to show the world that he is being tortured, crucified, being lied if it's only show his powerless!" is a wrong concept.
God/Jesus allowed himself to be crucified INSPITE of being all powerful.

God did all of that free of charge for mankind, God did it himself. God paid the price.

A simple accepting to God’s instruction is all that is needed. Mankind along with the rest of creation, Angles and Satan, are free to choose to follow God or to follow their own desires. Those who refuse to follow God will see a different God when he returns.

Mankind will see Jesus, as he really was and is, All Mighty.

I hope this answers your questions.

Qurban, in the Old Testament the “Throne of David” is often referred to as the “House of David” that is why I chose that word and in my answer to Ansar Al-‘Adl. I knew his hidden meaning and I think he understood mine.
God is the ultimate “Head of that Throne”, that is why Jesus sits on that Throne.

The role of Jesus began at the moment God decided to create. God foreknew what the final outcome of “free-will” would be. God also foreknew what he was going to do about it.

God in all his roles was the “I Am” before the “Beginning”. That is why scripture say’s “God created” and also say’s “Let Us create”. That is why Jesus has no “beginning” yet his “role” as he relates to “Creation” has a beginning. Creation has a “Beginning”.

I hope this answers your questions.



Abd’ Majid, I agree, man will not fully understand until all has been fulfilled.

Zulkiflim, God desired for his created beings, even Satan has free-will just like the rest of creation, to have the same will as God has. That is why God said he created man in his own image. God knew that at sometime some part of creations would choose to use that gift of “Free-Will” to do what God didn’t want done.

God “using his own Free-Will” decided before hand to pay the price for giving the gift of free-will himself. That is why Jesus said “No One has the right to take Jesus’ life, rather he freely laid it down and was free to pick it up again”.

Satan is called the “Deceiver”. When you have a deceiver, you also have those that are deceived. One is acting purposefully and the other is being duped. These are two different actions that call for different punishment for the outcome.
Satan at one time was called a “Prince”. That wasn’t enough for Satan. He wanted to push God/Jesus from his throne. Satan wanted to replace God.

That is why Satan is considered God’s enemy and is still God’s enemy. Satan is still today trying to destroy mankind.

I hope this answers your reply.

As to your “thus they already create a pantheon god in their worship...the 3 in one and the adversary...” there is a riddle on the “Did Jesus deny being God” thread you may wish to try and answer.

I would repost it here but it would only serve to sidetrack the thread.

Prim3 you are correct, by the authority Jesus gave to us, we can cast out Satan’s minions.

Thanks
Nimrod

[cleo]

Peace to those who follow the guidance

Greetings Nimrod



An uncreated house, why does it require an extra room, is it insufficient in its original form?



The role he created has a beginning then how can this role be God, who has no beginning?

Kind Regards
:)

God, is and was always...he doesn't have to prove anything, we have the right to except, or not except. God "is".

[nimrod]

Nicola, a very good post.
Azim, I hope I addressed your concerns inmy above post.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Cleo "he doesn't have to prove anything", if you allow free-will, you allow doubt. Thus God "proved".

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Nimrod,
Sorry for the late response.

First off I will say that if God wasn’t “good” then man would have been wiped out long time ago.

If you are “good” and you don’t have to answer to anyone, you won’t act deceitfully, the two are in incompatible.

True, but I thought you were asking about what God can do. Can God decieve?

Your question of God creating an un-created being:

That may seem at first glance may seem to be like the question, if God can lift any rock, can he create a rock he can’t lift?

I think I can show why that isn’t a correct argument concerning God and Jesus both being an un-created being.

Actually I wasn't thinking of the trinity at all when I asked the question. We can discuss trinity another time, if you'd like. The question is simple: Can God create an uncreated being? Yes, or no?

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

a simple question..



God didn't make them has such to begin with, they turned on God and became proud





Satans nature is very cunning and appears as an angel of light and very deceptive, he is also very proud. He mixes liars with truths to keep people away from knowing the one and only God. He defies God and despises truth and despises Jesus Christ.






Oh Yes of course God should allow it...Satan seives out the chaff from the wheat.




Yes




God gave us freewill...other wise we would be nothing but puppets...and that wasn't God intention for mankind...God wants obedience and love from mankind...and the ones who turn away from Satan, are the ones God has choosen...though we can't do this alone, no matter how we try, man (our flesh is weak) this is why as Christians we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and help us and when we walk in this path, it is impossible to sin...Jesus also took our sins away when we accepted him as our one and only saviour. So God sees us now has he does Jesus...sinless. Other wise he would turn his eyes from us.






Though we are tested constantly, it is impossible to sin if you let the Holy Spirit lead your life. If you stop letting Him lead you, you sin...simple.

He leads you away from all tempation, until we are santified and become Christ-like...which is what being a Christian means...and which was always Gods intention for us to become...sinless.

As born-again Christians we died with Christ when he died on the cross, for a born again Christian, we are now living with the dead here on earth.



Because you believe the gospels are corrupted? The Holy Spirit leads you to the only truth..Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit would do this...and He does, He will only ever confirm to you what is stated about Jesus is true.



Well they must be Christians who do not read and understand the Bible, because the Bible makes it quite plain that Satan is above mankind, but below God. You must also remember that Satan is at work within the church, leading people away from God thats his job...lots of false doctrine is around...if it isn't in the Bible it isn't from God.

Jesus tells us he is the only way to get to the Father...what he says goes and when Christians choose to believe mans doctrine over Gods word..they will be condemmed at their second death Jesus makes that quiet plain.

Salaam,

Thus the thing is As you say Satan evolved into your gods adversary then do you mena your god was not aware of it?
Does that mena your god is not omnipresent and omnicient?


Also as you say Satan/Jinns are cunnign and tempted Adam via eve...Was your god not aware of this ?

Then you say that your god allowed satan to run wild WITH PERMISSION TO BEGUILE MAN....If your god loves then should he have let satan run free knowing his ill intention??

As you say your god gave mankind free will,so if wihout satan wiles on earth would we have erred?


And finally,as you have said,satan is at work in the chruch....your church or which ever church..is it with your god blessing?
And if as you say,that only what goes thru the bible is true,,then i ask you,,,which bible.....
For if the church decides what the bible is,what the content is.,.,..and satan is running amok in your church...do you then still claim it is true??



So it can be but 2 thing
1) your god is weak,do not know what his creation will evolve to,..do not kow the action of his creation, not omnipotent nor omnipresent

2) Or your god willfully and knowingly allowed ADAM and EVE to be tempted...willfully allowed Satan to run around to casue human to err...

So i shall await your answer..

[PrIM3]

Salaam,

Thus the thing is As you say Satan evolved into your gods adversary then do you mena your god was not aware of it?
Does that mena your god is not omnipresent and omnicient?


Also as you say Satan/Jinns are cunnign and tempted Adam via eve...Was your god not aware of this ?

Then you say that your god allowed satan to run wild WITH PERMISSION TO BEGUILE MAN....If your god loves then should he have let satan run free knowing his ill intention??

As you say your god gave mankind free will,so if wihout satan wiles on earth would we have erred?


And finally,as you have said,satan is at work in the chruch....your church or which ever church..is it with your god blessing?
And if as you say,that only what goes thru the bible is true,,then i ask you,,,which bible.....
For if the church decides what the bible is,what the content is.,.,..and satan is running amok in your church...do you then still claim it is true??



So it can be but 2 thing
1) your god is weak,do not know what his creation will evolve to,..do not kow the action of his creation, not omnipotent nor omnipresent

2) Or your god willfully and knowingly allowed ADAM and EVE to be tempted...willfully allowed Satan to run around to casue human to err...

So i shall await your answer..

I'll say 2... God also wanted to show that He could save His creation to. and we have free will. we can choose to worship God of the universe or satan. whats true love- is when you have a choice between something now or something later. now how great is the love when you wait till later?
God Allowed them to be tempted for reasons other than what your looking at it. again because Gods plan from the beginning was to die on the cross. I know of one verse atleast that tells of such coming of the Christ.

[Nicola]

Zulkiflim;271011]Salaam,

Thus the thing is As you say Satan evolved into your gods adversary then do you mena your god was not aware of it?
Does that mena your god is not omnipresent and omnicient?

Peace

NEHEMIAH 9:6 You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You. (NKJV)

JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NKJV)


From the two above scriptures we see God created his Heavenly hosts including Satan before he created the earth and everything on it...including us.


From this Psalm we can see God created man lower than the angels but gave man control over all things on the world.

PSALM 8:4 What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, 7 all sheep and oxen -- even the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea that pass through the paths of the seas. (NKJV)


EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . ." (NIV)

Luk 10:18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Rev 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.


We understand from the above scriptures that Jesus was there when Satan was thrown out of heaven and along with him where a third of all angels in heaven...there as been a battle that has been taking place since that time. And will contintue until Jesus returns.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

From the scriptures above and many more in the Bible we know God was well aware of what Satan was upto. We also know that God uses the evil Satan and the demons do on earth and God turns it into good...
For instance in the scriptures of Joseph who was a kind hearted man...it was for evil purposes that Josephs brothers sold him and lied to their father, that Joseph had been killed...But look how God changed around the whole situation for Joseph...Joseph cam to be held in high position and look how he helped save his brothers when they came begging for food...God will always use the evil and turn it around for the good of mankind.

Omnipotent: om·nip·o·tent:
1: having absolute power over all. (Almighty God)
2: unlimited in power.
3: great in magnitude or seriousness.
4: having unlimited authority or influence.

Omnipresent: om·ni·pres·ent:
1: present in all places at all times.

Omniscient. om·ni·scient:
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight.
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

God is all the above, but we must remember God gave us free will the same why Satan and the angles have.

Also as you say Satan/Jinns are cunnign and tempted Adam via eve...Was your god not aware of this ?

Yes God was well aware that Satan tempeted Eve and Eve tempted Adam.
Before their fall into sin, there wouldn't have been any illness, evil or death.
That God told them,

Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

and die they did, and so do all we now also,

Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Before they where tempted they only ever knew good. But once they had disobeyed God..he tells them

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

Since that day, evil has been in the world and conflict. There isn't one person who ever lived on this earth who as never sinned, besides Jesus Christ.
If this was not so, surely out of all mankind, at least 5% or even 1 % of people ever born would never sin...but that isn't so. We all fall short of the Glory of God.

Then you say that your god allowed satan to run wild WITH PERMISSION TO BEGUILE MAN....If your god loves then should he have let satan run free knowing his ill intention??

please remember there isn't Satan alone, but he has with him one third of all angels ever created by God...there is a spiritual warfare that goes on around us that many of us humans do not know about or even understand. These demons when captured by Gods angles are thrown into the abyss. Also we know in the days of Enoch many angles came down and began breeding with humans...their Children they had, cannot die because they are half human and half angel...when their physcial body died, these also began roaming around the earth causing evil and mischief...we know these also are being locked into the abyss.

Jesus tells us in

Luk 20:34 And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
Luk 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
Luk 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Angels do not die and neither we will after our first death. This is why the demons need to be locked up. Satan isn't always going to run amock and neither will his demons.

Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."
Luk 8:29 For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.)
Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.

Like I mentioned earlier God uses evil and turns it into good. I don't know if you know the parable of the sower which Jesus tells us...this is a very good clue, as to why God is still allowing it.

As you say your god gave mankind free will,so if wihout satan wiles on earth would we have erred?

Who can say for sure, only God knows that, I believe man would still have fallen at some stage.

And finally,as you have said,satan is at work in the chruch....your church or which ever church..is it with your god blessing?

yes he is most definatly we are told this in the Bible, and yes it is with Gods knowing about it...this is why God gave us the many gifts though the Holy Spirit...We are given the gift of discernment if we choose to use the gift we know what is of God and what is not. We also have what Jesus tells us about testing different spirits, which we can do.
For instance a pastor, or who ever could be preaching from the Bible, now if he gives that message any other meaning that what God meant...you would know, if you are choosing to recieve the Holy Spirit he will point the error out to you. Same with people who recieve propheic messages which happen often...if it doesn't match what Jesus tells us...then the spirits are decieving that person and trying to lead others astray away from God.
Which Satan and his demons are all about, If the messenger denys Jesus is the Christ and came in the flesh...that spirit is evil and not from God.

And if as you say,that only what goes thru the bible is true,,then i ask you,,,which bible.....For if the church decides what the bible is,what the content is.,.,..and satan is running amok in your church...do you then still claim it is true??

It doesn't really matter which Bible you use....I have many different verisons..and I compare them all the time. The meaings of the scriptures are always the same.. Gods word is living it is supernatural with the Holy Spirit guiding you it is always come to the same truth he will also give you revelations that you had never seen before.

So it can be but 2 thing
1) your god is weak,do not know what his creation will evolve to,..do not kow the action of his creation, not omnipotent nor omnipresent

2) Or your god willfully and knowingly allowed ADAM and EVE to be tempted...willfully allowed Satan to run around to casue human to err...

So i shall await your answer..

Mine would be number 2...I fully believe God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted I believe he knows everything...
If Satan and a third of all angels fell...God lets them roam around the earth...God also knows we will be tempeted from the moment we breath our first beath..so which way do we choose in life...God is allowing us to choose our own path..with freewill each one of us is different..he fashioned each one of us..the only thing that is the same is..Man can not stop sinning... and God hates sin..because he is Holy and pure. So our sins keep us away from God.

Only Jesus who was sinless can protect us and bring us back into communion with the father, besides the power of Jesus' blood that covers our sins in the eyes of God, God tells us he will remember our sins no more...God will recieve us again we also recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit and we will stop sinning...If we let the Holy Spirit take control of our life.

Again the parable of the sower tells me...what Gods plan was and what the outcome will be and it comes down to the free will God gave us and the use of Satan and the demons.

[nimrod]

Zulkiflim, if you doubt that Satan is God’s, and our, enemy then read the following verses.

Matthew 13:24-43

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast

31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Zulkiflim, perhaps it would be helpful in finding some common ground if you would give your description of what you believe “free-will” means. Thanks.

Thanks
Nimrod

[mirage41]

The Silver Bullet of Atheism :
Can Allah create a rock that he cannot lift?

[PrIM3]

The Silver Bullet of Atheism :
Can Allah create a rock that he cannot lift?

should I answer this? even though the question is directed towards muslim.. it is still a question that also involves God... ( hope that came out right )

[mirage41]

should I answer this? even though the question is directed towards muslim.. it is still a question that also involves God... ( hope that came out right )

Sure.

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, perhaps this will help.

God can not act deceitfully.
God can deceive, with the exception of what is underlined. If you feel otherwise, I would be interested in knowing what the basis is.

Deceitfully:
de•ceit•ful
adj.
Given to cheating or deceiving.
Deliberately misleading; deceptive. See Synonyms at dishonest

Dishonest:
dis•hon•est
adj.
Disposed to lie, cheat, defraud, or deceive.
Resulting from or marked by a lack of honesty.

Deceive
de•ceive
v. de•ceived, de•ceiv•ing, de•ceives
v. tr.
To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.
Archaic. To catch by guile; ensnare.

v. intr.
To practice deceit.
To give a false impression: appearances can deceive.

Deceit
de•ceit
n.
1. The act or practice of deceiving; deception.
2. A stratagem; a trick.
3. The quality of being deceitful; falseness.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Mirage, Was there a rock Jesus couldn’t lift?

Thanks
Nimrod

[mirage41]

Mirage, Was there a rock Jesus couldn’t lift?

Thanks
Nimrod

yes.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

The Silver Bullet of Atheism :
Can Allah create a rock that he cannot lift?

Here is the response to your 'silver bullet' :)
http://www.islamicboard.com/159715-post2.html

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Nimrod,

Ansar Al-‘Adl, perhaps this will help.

God can not act deceitfully.
God can deceive, with the exception of what is underlined. If you feel otherwise, I would be interested in knowing what the basis is.

I agree that God cannot lie or decieve, not because of any lack in His potential, but because it is not in concordance with His nature. Likewise, I believe that the eternal/immortal cannot die, the uncreated cannot be created, and so on. What I am interested to know is why you make an exception for God in the case of acting deceitfully but not in the case of becoming a man. Do you believe that God can become a man?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

this is a little silly.

"can god create a rock that he cannot lift"

look at that sentence! It defies all logic, of course Allah can defy logic so lets make the answer SIMPLE!

god can indeed make a rock he cannot lift, but he can turn that same rock into sumthing he can lift!


^ illogical answer right? THE WHOLE THREAD IS ILLOGICAL ;D

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, “Can God create an uncreated being? Yes, or no?”

Was the man Jesus created?
Was the soul that inhabited the body of Jesus created?

John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Thanks
Nimrod

[mirage41]

Here is the response to your 'silver bullet' :)
http://www.islamicboard.com/159715-post2.html

I read that post and it actually didnt even come close. Why do muslims post up such rubbish and low quality stuff and then say "okay, i disproved you, done"? That post didn't even begin to answer the question.

[nimrod]

Mirage, then for you the answer is, Yes.

Based on what you based your answer on, how did Jesus walk on the water?

Thanks
Nimrod

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, “Can God create an uncreated being? Yes, or no?”

Was the man Jesus created?
Was the soul that inhabited the body of Jesus created?

John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Thanks
Nimrod

can you please offer a sentence which makes sence, yes or no!

We dont hav the knowledge to understand or comprehend our God. He is all-mighty all knowing!

as i said before, he only duz that which befits his majesty for everything known to him is certainly not known to us!

[mirage41]

this is a little silly.

"can god create a rock that he cannot lift"

look at that sentence! It defies all logic, of course Allah can defy logic so lets make the answer SIMPLE!

god can indeed make a rock he cannot lift, but he can turn that same rock into sumthing he can lift!


^ illogical answer right? THE WHOLE THREAD IS ILLOGICAL ;D

That's precisely the point!! Atheist KNOW that the question is illogical! Thats why it precisely disproves God's existence because such a question is logically untenable! But God on the other hand is supposed to be able to do such a thing.

Believe it or not, you just became an atheist.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I read that post and it actually didnt even come close. Why do muslims post up such rubbish and low quality stuff and then say "okay, i disproved you, done"? That post didn't even begin to answer the question.

hmm,

muslims seem to be portrayed as blind followers these days. why do we believe in Allah even tho we still cant answer such a simple question. Well we can answer it but we cant giv an answer to satisfy those who disbelieve in Allah. Why u ask? Its simple, u hav made up ur mind on disbelieving, how can we say nethin 2 bring faith to such people?



*Allah does that which befits his majesty and everything he knows we surely do not*

:peace:

[nimrod]

Ansar-Al’-Adl, was the pharaoh deceived into wasting his army in the sea of reeds?

Thanks
Nimrod

[IbnAbdulHakim]

That's precisely the point!! Atheist KNOW that the question is illogical! Thats why it precisely disproves God's existence because such a question is logically untenable! But God on the other hand is supposed to be able to do such a thing.

Believe it or not, you just became an atheist.

astagfirullah, i sed GOD can indeed do such things but we do NOT have the knowledge of HOW he will do it!


so let me say it a little simpler:

God can do everything and anything but us humans will not be able to comprehend how he went about doing it.

i dont kno how to say it any simpler and I AINT NO ATHEIST!!

Laa illaha illalahu wa muhammadur rasullulah!!

[nimrod]

Abd’Majid, if you will explain just what part of my post you are having trouble with, I will be happy to revisit it.

Thanks
Nimrod

[mirage41]

Mirage, then for you the answer is, Yes.

Based on what you based your answer on, how did Jesus walk on the water?

Thanks
Nimrod

Jesus never walked on water. The dude could barely lift his freakin wooden cross when he got executed. And he didn't even last that long on the cross. Overall: UNIMPRESSIVE.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Abd’Majid, if you will explain just what part of my post you are having trouble with, I will be happy to revisit it.

Thanks
Nimrod

wow so polite, im sry if i came across rude in anyway before.

well sir this sentence right here:

“Can God create an uncreated being? Yes, or no?”


why are you dazzling your brain to such extents that you think of that which you cant comprehend, of that which you surely have no knowledge of?
Surely God knows that which you know not!
Thats all i meant :)

:peace: :)

sry again..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Jesus never walked on water. The dude could barely lift his freakin wooden cross when he got executed. And he didn't even last that long on the cross. Overall: UNIMPRESSIVE.

out of respect for the members please try put your posts a bit more politely. Would appreciate it :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I read that post and it actually didnt even come close. Why do muslims post up such rubbish and low quality stuff and then say "okay, i disproved you, done"? That post didn't even begin to answer the question.

LOL! Is this the best you can do to refute my answer? You are incapable of pointing out any flaws in my reasoning so you simply have to label it as rubbish, hoping that you can escape debate? Nice try, mirage.

Actually, the same answer was presented to another atheist forum member, czgibson, who considered it a reasonable response to the argument. Are you suggesting that he fell for 'rubbish'?

Hi nimrod :)

Was the man Jesus created?

Yes.

Was the soul that inhabited the body of Jesus created?

Yes.

John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Jesus had a pre-human existence. So did everyone.

But forgetting about Jesus for now, is it logically possible to create an uncreated being? The answer is obviously no, because it is a contradiction of terms. God does everything that is consistent with His nature.

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl “I believe that the eternal/immortal cannot die”.

Did the body of the man Jesus die?

Matthew 12:40
40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Thanks
Nimrod

[mirage41]

out of respect for the members please try put your posts a bit more politely. Would appreciate it :)

Sorry If I sounded rude. It just that there were innocent people who were crucified and suffered way more on the cross. There were prisoners who were nailed up their and survived for a week and was harrassed by people and animals and died slow cruel deaths. Why does Jesus, who only lasted for a few hours, hog all the attention (ie Passion of the Christ).

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Sorry If I sounded rude. It just that there were innocent people who were crucified and suffered way more on the cross. There were prisoners who were nailed up their and survived for a week and was harrassed by people and animals and died slow cruel deaths. Why does Jesus, who only lasted for a few hours, hog all the attention (ie Passion of the Christ).

lol im not a christian. As a muslim i rekon Jesus (Isa AS) neva got crucified and his traitor did (judas). A lotta people got tortured more on the cross yes, why we dont kno, who know's what evil they might hav dun, or who knows what rewards they'll get for there hardship.

:peace: :)

[mirage41]

lol im not a christian. As a muslim i rekon Jesus (Isa AS) neva got crucified and his traitor did (judas). A lotta people got tortured more on the cross yes, why we dont kno, who know's what evil they might hav dun, or who knows what rewards they'll get for there hardship.

:peace: :)

A vast majority of people crucified in the Roman Empire were slaves and warriors that resisted the Romans. Most criminals were just thrown into the gladiotor pits. Anyways this is a bit off topic.

[nimrod]

Mirage, you may find the thread “Why do you believe?” part 1 mildly interesting.
I will be interested in your refuting “Why do you believe?” part 2 when I post it.

Thanks, looking forward to an exchange of commentary.

Thanks
Nimrod

[IbnAbdulHakim]

A vast majority of people crucified in the Roman Empire were slaves and warriors that resisted the Romans. Most criminals were just thrown into the gladiotor pits. Anyways this is a bit off topic.

sry bro im not a historian. I cant say anything on this matter. But i think everything happens for a reason and no1s innocent in this world... well not after the age of 18 :p

[mirage41]

Mirage, you may find the thread “Why do you believe?” part 1 mildly interesting.
I will be interested in your refuting “Why do you believe?” part 2 when I post it.

Thanks, looking forward to an exchange of commentary.

Thanks
Nimrod

I'm having a good enough time with my fellow Muzzies, I really can't deal with two irrational religions at the same time. Too much too handle.

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, “Jesus had a pre-human existence. So did everyone.”

I find this most interesting. Will you explain what you are basing that statement on?

BTW I happen to agree, but my thoughts are purely speculation.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Nimrod :)

Ansar Al-‘Adl “I believe that the eternal/immortal cannot die”.

Did the body of the man Jesus die?

According to my beliefs, no, but he will. But was it possible for Jesus to die? Yes. Was it possible for God to die? No.

I find this most interesting. Will you explain what you are basing that statement on?

My belief as a Muslim, which is that God created all human souls and a took a covenant from them before our earthly existence. The Bible also notes others having a prehuman existence, such as Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5).

Regards

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl,

Footnotes:
Jeremiah 1:5 Or chose

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, your response to this “John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" has really been bothering me.

Your response of “The Bible also notes others having a prehuman existence, such as Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5)” in the context of what was being discussed is lacking.

What was the Jewish reaction to what Jesus said? If he was only clarifying for the Jewish folks he was speaking to that:

Everyone has a pre-human existence and “I am just saying I am one of you”, why would have the folks have reacted as they did to his simply statement, if his statement should be interpreted as you suggest?

I am sorry but what your replied implications are makes no sense to me. Perhaps I am just not seeing things correctly.

Thanks
Nimrod