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Umm Safiya
04-22-2006, 08:10 AM
How many 'Sons' does God have?

Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section, we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.



Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?
  1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
  2. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
  3. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
  4. Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38.
  5. Common people (you and me) are the sons of God:
    • "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1.
    • "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.
    • "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" John 1:12.
    • "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15.
    • "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2.
    • "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7.
    • "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1.
    • "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6.
    • "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4.
    • "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.


Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God?
Read Psalms 2:7 : "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee"

Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34:

(he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..") As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.

Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says:

"During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .

There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.

Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!.

Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.

Islam teaches that Jesus (pbuh) was a human being, not a God. Jesus (peace be upon him) continually emphasized this to his followers throughout his mission. The Gospel of Barnabas also affirms this fact. Once again, Grolier's encyclopedia says:

"...Most problematical of all is the title "Son of Man." This is the only title used repeatedly by Jesus as a self-designation, and there is no clear evidence that it was used as a title of majesty by the post-Easter church. Hence it is held by many to be authentic, since it passes the criterion of dissimilarity."

Written by : Misha'al ibn Abdullah, 'What Did Jesus Really Say?'
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E'jaazi
04-22-2006, 09:34 AM
Here are a few other Bible verses that call Jesus the "Son of Man."


Matthew 9:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain




6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


Matthew 13:41 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain




41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;




Matthew 16:13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain




13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?


There are many more such verses.
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Trumble
04-22-2006, 12:19 PM
Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!.

Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.


"Son of Man" is interpreted by Christians as having two meanings.

The first is that Jesus was a human being, as well as being an aspect of God/fully God/son of God (I won't go into the Trinity stuff again, that has been discussed at length recently). It isnt and if/or, but a "both". Two natures combined in one person.

The second is as a Messianic title, originating from Daniel 7: 13-14 which says

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed

There is no "mistranslation", and the author's claim is both simplistic and unscholarly. He either does not know his subject, or is deliberately ignoring large chunks to fit his agenda.

The New Testament was written in Greek, and translated rapidly into Latin. What matters is not a supposed direct translation of the Aramaic (not Hebrew here, note), or even a literal translation of the Greek, but what those words actually meant in Graeco-Roman (not Jewish) culture, and the context in which they were used. In particular that was an association with Hercules, considered to have been born human, suffered his famous labours, and become divine, to whom the phrase had also been applied.


As usual, I'm afraid, this sort of stuff shouldn't be taken too seriously. Facts that "fit" the author's tilt are frequently used out of context, those that don't are conveniently ignored. You see exactly the same things in some Christian attempts to debunk Islam... although Islam does have an inbuilt advantage in that translation is not an issue.
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Ninth_Scribe
05-01-2006, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ms. Amira
How many 'Sons' does God have?
Once upon a time, fathers raised their sons to follow the path of righteousness and walk with God (Allah). They, certain of the fathers, decided that 'Son of Man' was ignorant to a point, and could not be held accountable for his actions... what you call a kafir? When these 'Sons of Man' became the age of 40, it was expected of them, that they acquire a certain level of wisdom and discipline over their flesh... they were, at that age, called the 'Sons of God'.

Today, any man, who is old enough to know better...

Ninth Scribe
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PrIM3
05-02-2006, 12:49 AM
well yeah the bible says the sons of God but NOT THE SON OF GOD..... huge difference...

well your a child of God comparing it to He is The Child of God
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*Hana*
05-02-2006, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
well yeah the bible says the sons of God but NOT THE SON OF GOD..... huge difference...

well your a child of God comparing it to He is The Child of God
Peace PrIM3:

Will you please provide the verse that uses these words: Jesus, pbuh, is "THE Child of God"?

Thank you :)

Peace,
Hana
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north_malaysian
05-02-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
well yeah the bible says the sons of God but NOT THE SON OF GOD..... huge difference...

well your a child of God comparing it to He is The Child of God
Sorry cant figure out the differences.:rollseyes :rollseyes
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syilla
05-02-2006, 03:59 AM
the difference is the existence of 's'....

hehehe...

i only can spot that type of differences...
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extinction
05-02-2006, 03:59 AM
How many 'Sons' does God have?
According to Islam ......none ...never has never will ......always was alone always will be alone......qul huwallahu ahad (surah ikhlas)
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PrIM3
05-02-2006, 10:25 AM
the Son/s of God

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 16:16
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Matthew 4:6
"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "


Matthew 26:63-64
But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

Luke 4:41
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

then the son of God

Luke 3:38
the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:19
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
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IbnAbdulHakim
05-02-2006, 10:27 AM
none :thumbs_up

LAMYA LIDH WA LAMYU LADH!!

:D
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------
05-02-2006, 11:06 AM
^^^


He Begot none, Nor was he Begotten
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Ninth_Scribe
05-02-2006, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
well yeah the bible says the sons of God but NOT THE SON OF GOD..... huge difference...

well your a child of God comparing it to He is The Child of God
Grammar and context only. If you are speaking about 'them' you will write bene elohim. If you are speaking of one of 'them' you write ben elohim. But rest assured, there is more than sufficient proof that the tribe who used this title were addressing 'them' and, at times, certain of them.

Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the sons of your God. You shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness on your head on account of the dead.

This law was addressed to the men (plural) to prevent them from performing rituals deemed foreign. It basically explained to the Judean males that acts such as the festival of Ashurah... were illegal. Never mind that Ashurah didn't exit at that time... the practice certainly did.

Ezra (Uzayr) didn't use the title bene elohim. He preferred the title, Zerah Kodesh (Holy Seed). Different tribes used different titles... but these are only titles, similar to the one, Imam.

Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
05-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
^^^

He Begot none, Nor was he Begotten
This is arguable. If Allah 'created' you, you can certainly call him 'creator' or as we say here, for those who create us... father.

It's poetic.

Ninth Scribe
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Alphaseed
05-02-2006, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ms. Amira
How many 'Sons' does God have?
...
17. When a long article/post has been posted, and you want to comment on the article/post, do not quote it since it is a waste of space.
God has many sons But only One Begotten Son
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*Hana*
05-03-2006, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
God has many sons But only One Begotten Son
Peace:

Actually, no He isn't, as posted above. There is another begotten son. Psalms 2:7: "...Thou, (O David) art my son, this day have I (God) begotten thee.

Ummm, David was also 40 years old at the time. :confused:

Peace,
Hana
:sis:
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IbnAbdulHakim
05-03-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
God has many sons But only One Begotten Son
thats what YOU think!!!
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north_malaysian
05-03-2006, 09:28 AM
Does Christian Gods have daughters? Why favour to have son? :rollseyes
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------
05-03-2006, 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
This is arguable. If Allah 'created' you, you can certainly call him 'creator' or as we say here, for those who create us... father.

It's poetic.

Ninth Scribe
HE Created us...we weren't ""born"" from him...
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------
05-03-2006, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
God has many sons But only One Begotten Son
God has NO begotten sons

"He begot none, nor was he begotten"

Qur'an, Surah 112
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IbnAbdulHakim
05-03-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
God has NO begotten sons

"He begot none, nor was he begotten"

Qur'an, Surah 112
we kno that but like i sed thats what HE thinks, that god has sons :rollseyes
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Ninth_Scribe
05-03-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
HE Created us...we weren't ""born"" from him...
Poetic license, dear. Born and Created are relatives ;)

Ninth Scribe
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mizan_aliashraf
05-03-2006, 02:38 PM
Peace to those who follow righteous guidance
Well its a joke isnt it? one comes out every other day. (the copy of the bible, i mean)
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Ninth_Scribe
05-03-2006, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Peace:

Actually, no He isn't, as posted above. There is another begotten son. Psalms 2:7: "...Thou, (O David) art my son, this day have I (God) begotten thee.

Ummm, David was also 40 years old at the time. :confused:

Peace,
Hana
:sis:
You're sharp to have caught that... the Bene Elohim (Sons of God=Wise Council) were all acknowledged at 40 years of age. Abu Musab Zarqawi, I believe, will be coming of age this October.

The confusion is caused by tribal conditions - not all tribes used the same words. What means 'honor' on one side of the river means 'payment' on the other. Language is just like that. We have more fun decyphering the differences between British English and American English, for example:

A British man walks into an American bar and asks the bartender for a fag.

In British English, this means he wants a cigarette. In American English this means he wants a male lover.

I don't know how the title Bene Elohim became misunderstood, but I suspect some 'mystic' types read more into the records than what was recorded. Some of them even wrote about how the Bene Elohim were Angels ~ and I almost fell out of my chair laughing! The human condition... it can be so amusing... at times.

Ninth Scribe
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Alphaseed
05-05-2006, 03:06 AM
1 John 2:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

1 John 2;

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
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*Hana*
05-05-2006, 03:27 AM
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

The confusion is caused by tribal conditions - not all tribes used the same words. What means 'honor' on one side of the river means 'payment' on the other. Language is just like that.
And that explains perfectly the problem of translated translations of translated translations of the books of the Bible over the past 2000 years. Unfortunately, none of the original documents remain of the Zubur, Torah or Injeel. Many liberties, both intentional and unintentional, were taken when translating/copying manuscripts over the years. It is well documented by both Biblical and Christian scholars that many copyists manipulated, added and altered words/verses to have them say what was in their "group's" best interest. It is also the reason the Bible will continue to be edited and revamped as more documents/manuscripts are found.

According to Dr. Raymond Brown, a very well-known and respected Scholar, "...John 3:16 and 1:18 use the Greek word MONOGENES in Greek. This ordinarily means "of a single kind". As a result, "unique" is a good translation. The reason you sometimes find a translation that renders the word as "only begotten" has to do with an ancient heresy within the church. In response to the Arian claim that Jesus was made but not begotten, Jerome (4th century) translated the Greek term MONOGENES into Latin as UNIGENITUS ("only begotten")..."

The above paragraph tells us that the innovated idea of Jesus, pbuh, being the "only begotten son" of the Father was created in the 4th century. It was added by Jerome into the Latin Bible to refute the claims made by Bishop Arius and others that the Father alone was God; and Jesus, pbuh, was created and NOT begotten. Because Jesus, pbuh, was born to the virgin Mary He was unique, but it was never said He was the MOST unique. His creation was unique, but so was Adam's creation unique....born of no mother or father and also considered a "son of God".

Using the word "unique" when translating many versions of the bible (at least into English), is becoming more common and accepted and brings that verse a little closer to the truth.

Wasalam and Peace,
Hana
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Ninth_Scribe
05-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
1 John 2:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

1 John 2;

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Thank you for bringing up the Book of John... another fine example to shed some much needed light on this issue.

John 1:11 and 12:

He came unto his own, but his own received him not. But for those who received him,
to them he gave the means to become the Sons of God.


Jesus understood this title. John understood this title. In fact, a good majority of the Holy Men (fathers) of the times... understood this title!
Also, contemplate more on the origin of the word 'Christ' and maybe you'll see a small shaft of light to explain the confusions.

My 'companion' knows these records quite well, so be sure you're up to the challenge ;)

Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
05-05-2006, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

The above paragraph tells us that the innovated idea of Jesus, pbuh, being the "only begotten son" of the Father was created in the 4th century. It was added by Jerome into the Latin Bible to refute the claims made by Bishop Arius and others that the Father alone was God; and Jesus, pbuh, was created and NOT begotten. Because Jesus, pbuh, was born to the virgin Mary He was unique, but it was never said He was the MOST unique. His creation was unique, but so was Adam's creation unique....born of no mother or father and also considered a "son of God".

Wasalam and Peace,
Hana
Well, this is because the Book of Generations was broken, but it's nothing that can't be repaired. The Greek translations did serious damage, though I still find it amsuing, things like calling the Nephilim, giants. I would have called them "Godless a--holes" but what ever. Rome, or more specifically, Constantine, really mixed things up by giving the attributes of Sol Invictus (Persian import of the Sun God, Mithras) to Jesus so they could have a day to celebrate his birth. I'm sure that seemed like a harmless transfer of tradition at the time, but... man, does it make my head spin when added to all the other tamperings and misunderstandings. All the fighting now isn't helping my cause either (it's a big distraction), but it comes as no surprize to me.

Ninth Scribe
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Link
05-05-2006, 06:20 PM
Abu Musab Zarqawi, I believe, will be coming of age this October.
come on Ninth Scribe admit, Zarkawi is one of you guys, you got him to join you when he was still a drug dealer in jail right? :rollseyes

but lady, let me tell you a good fact you need to know, the day drug dealers are chosen by God is the day when pigs fly, okey doke :okay: (such people are chosen but only by Sayateen/Jinn/Aliens or human Sayateen)
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Ninth_Scribe
05-06-2006, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Link
Come on Ninth Scribe admit, Zarkawi is one of you guys...
A varient and a statement that just landed you in strange territory....

Just which one of 'you guys' do you think I am?

ROFLMAO... think carefully now... Who am I?

Ninth Scribe aka: ??????
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*noor
05-06-2006, 04:56 PM
how many sons does God have???

hmmm.....let me think....ok i think i have the answer...............NONE!!!
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.iSlaM inSiDe.
05-06-2006, 04:58 PM
Allah hasnt got wife a dad or mum or children ..
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Ninth_Scribe
05-06-2006, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by nurofislam
how many sons does God have???

hmmm.....let me think....ok i think i have the answer...............NONE!!!
Exactly. The title Bene Elohim was metaphorical in it's meaning, addressed to certain of the Men who came of age. I could use the word, Imam, and it would mean almost the same thing. But this was an old Hebrew title, and it follows certain traditions. Some studies are not taught to men who are younger than 40 years old and they must be married... In this light, one would question whether or not, Jesus would have even qualified... since the Christians are always saying he never married.

For those who are more curious about these requirements, I offer this one example (although I have compiled many more):

"This is where some of the well-known restrictions on Kabbalah study came from -- that you have to be forty years old, married with a family, well-versed in Bible and Talmud, and so on. These rules were put into place due to a historical event, and were couched in the worldview of that historical moment. That is why I do not adhere to them as written -- I am not forty, not married, and I do not have the level of Talmudic knowledge specified in some texts."

Source: http://www.metatronics.net/spirit/list504.htm - 4th paragraph down

Ninth Scribe
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hanifi
05-06-2006, 06:40 PM
"And if you commit shirk (associating partners with Allah) all of your works would be in vain (destroyed) and you wilt definitely be among those who are the losers". [Al-Zumar 39:65]

"Great" people who worked towards good in this life and died in the state of disbelief have NO chance in the hereafter
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Ninth_Scribe
05-06-2006, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by hanifi
"And if you commit shirk (associating partners with Allah) all of your works would be in vain (destroyed) and you wilt definitely be among those who are the losers". [Al-Zumar 39:65]

"Great" people who worked towards good in this life and died in the state of disbelief have NO chance in the hereafter
Shirk? The title Bene Elohim was recorded before the Quran was written, so what sin was commited by those who used this name back then?

Also please try to remember before you make judgements against me that this is the internet and as such, you do not know me. I could be anyone, so we should leave the matter of Judgement to Allah ;)

Ninth Scribe
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PrIM3
05-06-2006, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Exactly. The title Bene Elohim was metaphorical in it's meaning, addressed to certain of the Men who came of age. I could use the word, Imam, and it would mean almost the same thing. But this was an old Hebrew title, and it follows certain traditions. Some studies are not taught to men who are younger than 40 years old and they must be married... In this light, one would question whether or not, Jesus would have even qualified... since the Christians are always saying he never married.

For those who are more curious about these requirements, I offer this one example (although I have compiled many more):

"This is where some of the well-known restrictions on Kabbalah study came from -- that you have to be forty years old, married with a family, well-versed in Bible and Talmud, and so on. These rules were put into place due to a historical event, and were couched in the worldview of that historical moment. That is why I do not adhere to them as written -- I am not forty, not married, and I do not have the level of Talmudic knowledge specified in some texts."

Source: http://www.metatronics.net/spirit/list504.htm - 4th paragraph down

Ninth Scribe
hey Ninth Scribe

well I am sure you probally already know this... or what ever... but maybe Jesus was married but metaphorically I guess (its safe for me to say).. many times in the Bible it states that Jesus will come back to take His bride back agian... idk
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Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:06 AM
:sl:

SONS OF GOD!! May allah guide you misguided ones. Allah has no son as some proved by some verses in the quran.

(3) And say: "All the praises and thanks be to allah, Who has not begotten a son (nor an offspring), and Who has no partner in (His) Dominion, nor He is low to have a Walee (helper, protector or supporter). And magnify Him with all the magnificence, (allahu-Akbar (allah is the Most Great))."
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #111)

And in surah maryam allah proves he has no son.

19: 89. And they say, `The Gracious God has taken unto Himself a son.'

19: 90. Assuredly, you have indeed uttered a most hideous thing.

19: 91. The heavens might well-nigh burst thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces.

19: 92. Because they ascribe a son to the Gracious God.

19: 93. It becomes not the Gracious God that HE should take unto Himself a son.

19: 94. There is none in the heavens and the earth but he shall come to the Gracious God as a bondman.

19: 95. Verily, HE comprehends them by HIS knowledge and has numbered them all fully.

19: 96. And each of them shall come to HIM on the Day of Resurrection, all alone.

Edit:

I forgot about surah nisa.


5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no more that a Messenger, many were Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a believing woman. They both used to eat food. Look at how We make the proofs and evidences clear to them, yet look at how they are deluded away.

3:59
'Verily, the likeness of Jesus before God is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, 'Be!' and he was'.

5:72
Indeed they reject the truth who say 'God is Christ the son of Mary'. For indeed Christ said worship God, who is my God and your God.
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Abdullah4ever
:sl:

SONS OF GOD!! May allah guide you misguided ones. Allah has no son as some proved by some verses in the quran.

(3) And say: "All the praises and thanks be to allah, Who has not begotten a son (nor an offspring), and Who has no partner in (His) Dominion, nor He is low to have a Walee (helper, protector or supporter). And magnify Him with all the magnificence, (allahu-Akbar (allah is the Most Great))."
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #111)

And in surah maryam allah proves he has no son.

19: 89. And they say, `The Gracious God has taken unto Himself a son.'

19: 90. Assuredly, you have indeed uttered a most hideous thing.

19: 91. The heavens might well-nigh burst thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces.

19: 92. Because they ascribe a son to the Gracious God.

19: 93. It becomes not the Gracious God that HE should take unto Himself a son.

19: 94. There is none in the heavens and the earth but he shall come to the Gracious God as a bondman.

19: 95. Verily, HE comprehends them by HIS knowledge and has numbered them all fully.

19: 96. And each of them shall come to HIM on the Day of Resurrection, all alone.
may I ask you what is your input on the term "son"?

I think the Quran was trying to clear up the misunderstanding for those who actually thought that God took sexual relations with a human being... and then had a son
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:09 AM
:sl:

Son as you say by jesus is the son of god... like his offspring
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by Abdullah4ever
:sl:

Son as you say by jesus is the son of god... like his offspring
well then that is where you are misunderstanding the term... not us
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:13 AM
:sl:

Some1 in the begining posted verses of the bible saying god had a son...
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:15 AM
:sl:

Or like the trinity, how christians say he is god....
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:16 AM
well then that is clearly blasphmous as God is spirit and flesh gives birth to flesh.
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:18 AM
PRIM3 wat do u believe? do u believe that jesus was god?
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:22 AM
well first--- I believe he is a Prophet, The Predicted Massiah( annointed one ) and the Image of the Invisible God
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:28 AM
:sl:

When you say image of the invisible god do you mean he is god in person?!
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:30 AM
yes-- that is what I know Him best...
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-07-2006, 12:32 AM
:sl:

Ok-I will discuss later g2g
Reply

PrIM3
05-07-2006, 12:34 AM
ok ttyl
Reply

Link
05-07-2006, 01:28 AM
kabala is teaching stemming from people who followed sorcery from Satan (attributed to Sulaiman (as) ), some jews follow it, freemasons are crazy about it

(see suratal baqara "...threw God's book behind their backs as if they knew nothing, and they followed the sorcery.."

Kabalastic jews and freemasons are the same people, they stem from one another

ma'asaalma
Reply

Muslimaatan
05-07-2006, 03:04 AM
...wooooow...find the answer in suratul ikhlas...
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-07-2006, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
hey Ninth Scribe

well I am sure you probally already know this... or what ever... but maybe Jesus was married but metaphorically I guess (its safe for me to say).. many times in the Bible it states that Jesus will come back to take His bride back agian... idk
Ah, the 'bride' of Malkuth (Earth)... am aware of this document, but didn't know it had been hijacked for use in early Christian Gnosism. My. Can you post some of your sources? I'd love to read them.

Boy this keeps getting deeper~~~~

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-07-2006, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by Link
kabala is teaching stemming from people who followed sorcery from Satan.

ma'asaalma
Sort of... what it has become is certainly NOT what it once was. My companion told me about this quite some time ago. The story went something like this:

At a time, when trust was a commodity, the Malakhim were not always able to deliver their messages. Occassionaly these messages would be intercepted and securities could be breached. When Kabala was revealed, only to the trusted (see Sons of God), to be handed down the generations by oral teaching only, the messages that were intercepted only read simple prayers such as: May God, the Most High, bless you. To the ignorant, this statement had no value. To the ones who had knowledge, it would read: The queen is ill today, but it is nothing serious. Quite alot of intelligence could be gathered and transmitted effectively by such means.

Today, we call this 'encryption' and use it exactly the same way. Of course, no one could ever convince the mystics of that. They see what ever they want to.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-07-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
may I ask you what is your input on the term "son"?

I think the Quran was trying to clear up the misunderstanding for those who actually thought that God took sexual relations with a human being... and then had a son
It's Surah 9:30 that takes a stab at the title, and while I get the accusation against the Christians (back to Constantine again), I couldn't believe the accusation against the Jews. Completely blew my mind, because the title was often recorded and completely understood... which (whoa... rant alert) is why I'm so pissed off at Kaab al Ahbar. That little weasle knew NOTHING of Judean records and was not an 'authority' of them... or he would have TOLD the Muslim people this was a common title!!!

Whew... there... I feel better. This title was hijacked later to be applied to a sole son of God, but that was not the context this title was used, back in the day.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Link
05-07-2006, 08:58 PM
Ninth Scribe, I've been on sites where people discuss it and the same people into it seems to be into Wicca stuff aswell, anyhow, if you can teach me it (i'm learning irfan and inshallah don't and won't deny spiritual truths and love of knowledge of the self, believe everything has a spirit etc), but kabala to me seems to have an outside look of spirituality but when actually getting into it, to me it looks like it get's you further away from God and into dark paths, I might misunderstand alot of it but it might just the people I met

You seem to be a monothiest with strong faith, so I would like to hear it from you, if you don't like doing that on the forum, perhaps pm me

if kabala is mystic teachings of knowledge, then it is the equivalent to sufism in sunni islam and irfan in shia islam, but to me so far it seems it is just the opposite of that

your brother in humanity, thanks
Reply

PrIM3
05-08-2006, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Ah, the 'bride' of Malkuth (Earth)... am aware of this document, but didn't know it had been hijacked for use in early Christian Gnosism. My. Can you post some of your sources? I'd love to read them.

Boy this keeps getting deeper~~~~

Ninth Scribe
ok... hope this is what your asking for-

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

John 3:29
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory for the wedding of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready

Revelation 21:2
I saw the Holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:9
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the lamb."
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-08-2006, 11:39 AM
i wud just like to repeat none :)

Thanks :D
Reply

PrIM3
05-08-2006, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
i wud just like to repeat none :)

Thanks :D
None what?

sorry for being so rude or mean.. but I believe you are just being ignorant of the facts... as I said before Son does not mean in a literall way like a son between his/her mom/dad...

but if you say there is no son or Son of God then I would have to state that there is no son of the road... because that is the same thing but different metaphors..
Reply

Nicola
05-08-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Alphaseed
1 John 2:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

1 John 2;

22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
exactly this is how we know who is of God and who is of Satan.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-08-2006, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
None what?

sorry for being so rude or mean.. but I believe you are just being ignorant of the facts... as I said before Son does not mean in a literall way like a son between his/her mom/dad...

but if you say there is no son or Son of God then I would have to state that there is no son of the road... because that is the same thing but different metaphors..
ur makin life difficult :-\ lol, lets take it in the literal sence shall we and its NONE :D
Reply

abdul_kareem
05-10-2006, 04:53 PM
:sl:

God has no sons

You can refer from Holy Quraan ( Al-Ikhlas )
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-10-2006, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Link
Ninth Scribe, I've been on sites where people discuss it and the same people into it seems to be into Wicca stuff aswell, anyhow, if you can teach me it (i'm learning irfan and inshallah don't and won't deny spiritual truths and love of knowledge of the self, believe everything has a spirit etc), but kabala to me seems to have an outside look of spirituality but when actually getting into it, to me it looks like it get's you further away from God and into dark paths, I might misunderstand alot of it but it might just the people I met

You seem to be a monothiest with strong faith, so I would like to hear it from you, if you don't like doing that on the forum, perhaps pm me

if kabala is mystic teachings of knowledge, then it is the equivalent to sufism in sunni islam and irfan in shia islam, but to me so far it seems it is just the opposite of that

your brother in humanity, thanks
Here's a link to a sample of working Kabala:

http://www.songofazrael.org/azrael-1.html

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-10-2006, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by PrIM3
ok... hope this is what your asking for-

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

John 3:29
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory for the wedding of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready

Revelation 21:2
I saw the Holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:9
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the lamb."
Well, this borders on plagiarism... but what can I say? It isn't uncommon for Christian writers to do this, but it all comes out over time... wow!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-10-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
ur makin life difficult :-\ lol, lets take it in the literal sence shall we and its NONE :D
In the literal sense, there is no son of God. This was a metaphorical title and it caused a world of confusion, so it doesn't surprize me one single bit that God would ask his last prophet, Mohammed (PBUH), to put an end to all the confusion. I just didn't appreciate the cursing part.

But shame on the scribes who put words into the mouth of Jesus - because Jesus understood the metaphorical and poetic title... and, as I mentioned earler to the Christians who cited the Book of John... John understood this title as well.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

arabianprincess
05-14-2006, 12:56 AM
if jesus is god then when mary was pregnant with jesus who was ruling the earth...... that wat i dont get.and other thing how can jesus be the god and the son at the same time .. can someone explian that to me, salam
Reply

mas
05-14-2006, 01:57 AM
dameeeeeeeeeee that anit right .dameeeeeeeee how many god u ppl got. that anit right i am tellin ya people . yall need to go somewhere
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-15-2006, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by arabianprincess
if jesus is god then when mary was pregnant with jesus who was ruling the earth...... that wat i dont get.and other thing how can jesus be the god and the son at the same time .. can someone explian that to me, salam
This wouldn't be so confusing if people didn't mix the records up in the first place. The term 'Son of God' was given by one tribe, who no longer even exists, to the priests who were 'educated' (eg: had 40 or more years of learning). In ancient Judean records, this title appears for many different people... who were 40 years old. The tribe who used the title collapsed after the Assyrians conquered Israel and the term was only 'shadowed' into other works from then on.

It was, however, continued in other forms such as the requirements Judean men have to be able to satisfy if they want to access certain teachings. I gave one example as Kabala... but there are plenty of others that REQUIRE a male to be married and 40 years old. These 'requirements' came from the records of the Bene Elohim, but they don't use that term anymore - not surprizing, since it's caused so much confusion and aggevation.

The part specifically about Jesus being born on December 25th, from a virgin, having 12 disciples, dying and then ressurecting himself after a Last Supper, etc. - all that came from Mithras, an ancient Persian Sun God. The story is identical down the line in terms of those attributes but Mithras pre-dates the record of Jesus by at least 150 years... some speculate 400 years.

Anyway, that Persian God was adopted by the Romans (who have a thing for artistic traditions) and they re-named him Sol Invictus. Constantine was a follower of this Sol Invictus for most of his life. He later adopted Christianity, the teachings of Jesus and became infatuated with the records concerning his birth. So much so that he went off on a quest to find it, and any other facts. That one eluded him though, so he gave the story of Sol Invictus (Mithras) to Jesus, along with the Temple he owned (which is now called the Vatican), so he could offer a more fitting tradition to Jesus. I honestly don't think he realized how much trouble and confusion this would cause later on - but here we all are ;)

There's been alot of this going on... 2500 years worth, but I'm trying to sort it all out. Don't see how one lifetime is enough, but we'll see what we can do. I will say one thing for certain. None of this is worth dying over... the perceived 'differences' are only human.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Joe98
05-16-2006, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by Ms.Amira

How many 'Sons' does God have?


Israel is my son, even my firstborn
Solomon is God's son

Etc etc


Attaturk is the father of Turkey

How can a country have a father??????

-
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-16-2006, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
ur makin life difficult :-\ lol, lets take it in the literal sence shall we and its NONE :D
Deal... in the 'literal' sense, no, God did not have a son.

This was poetic license once upon a time and it shouldn't have been cause for an continued argument, save perhaps for the Christians who adopted the phrase and took it in the literal sense. I have their records too and I know how this all began. This is why I can't go into a Christian church... they make everyone recite the Nicene Creed and I won't do that to Jesus.

The dead can't defend themselves, but there's always the living who can... if they so desire ;)

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Joe98
05-17-2006, 01:16 AM
Christains believe that God impregnated Mary thereby producing the child Jesus.

This means God had a son.

Muslims are supposed to respect others beliefs even if you do not agree. But I do not see any of that.

-
Reply

Ghazi
05-17-2006, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Christains believe that God impregnated Mary thereby producing the child Jesus.

This means God had a son.

Muslims are supposed to respect others beliefs even if you do not agree. But I do not see any of that.

-
:sl:

Just beacuse you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you disrespect their belif's
Reply

PrIM3
05-17-2006, 02:02 AM
God or Jesus Christ is the head of the Church- we are the body of the Church ( of course I mean the Christians ) ( sons of God ) we are adopted while Jesus Christ always was since He is our (The Son of God) Head..
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-17-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Christains believe that God impregnated Mary thereby producing the child Jesus.

This means God had a son.

Muslims are supposed to respect others beliefs even if you do not agree. But I do not see any of that.

-
Neither do I, when people who take acid on Sunday, jump off buildings because they think they can fly. I mean, respect is something that has to be earned and fiction isn't the best way to go about it. I don't see how breaking all the known laws that were invoked when the world was created, would do anything other than confuse people. So, no... I don't believe God, by any name... would do such a thing as that. I also take into consideration that if he wouldn't do it once, he certainly wouldn't do it three times! I have three separate records of this, from different times and places... Jesus was not the only 'virgin' birth record in existence... so I do smell a... rat.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Joe98
05-17-2006, 10:54 PM
Christains ask that you attempt to understand their beliefs.

You don't have to believe it, only understand it.

Any attempt to search out evidence as to why their beliefs are wrong is proof that you choose to not understand. And that is very mean.

-
Reply

Abdul Fattah
05-17-2006, 11:11 PM
Isn't asking questions the only road to knowledge? Of course people will always have hidden agenda's and try to convince the other person they are right. But I don't think you should call a search of arguments against christianity mean. Especially not when it happens on an Islamic forum in teh comparative religion section. By the way, for what purpose do you think most atheists and christians are visiting this section of the forum anyway?
Do you expect us to close our minds just so we wouldn't say anything that compromises someone elses religion?
Reply

Joe98
05-18-2006, 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by steve
Do you expect us to close our minds just so we wouldn't say anything that compromises someone elses religion?

Of course not. And so when I ask a question about Islam it is a quest for knowlwdge - not an attack on Islam.

Do you agree?
Reply

Abdul Fattah
05-18-2006, 02:29 AM
Of course not. And so when I ask a question about Islam it is a quest for knowlwdge - not an attack on Islam.

Do you agree?
yes, unless your questions are reasoning against better knowledge. But of course I'd give you the benefit of the doubt inshallah
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2006, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by steve
Isn't asking questions the only road to knowledge? Of course people will always have hidden agenda's and try to convince the other person they are right. But I don't think you should call a search of arguments against christianity mean. Especially not when it happens on an Islamic forum in teh comparative religion section. By the way, for what purpose do you think most atheists and christians are visiting this section of the forum anyway?
Do you expect us to close our minds just so we wouldn't say anything that compromises someone elses religion?
Thank you. I have no religion and was never educated in religious literature until 1999, so my approach is justified. I will not allow the sons of Abraham to tear me into pieces over their disputes, especially considering that most of these are caused by silly misunderstandings, and I will not allow them to force me to 'choose sides' over who has their records kept in the best order. Trust me, none of this is pretty. It's ALL or NOTHING time folks.

But an axiom is God's law and transcends things like race, religion, sex and species... if one is broken, the world will perish since it's very existence relies on them! Birth and Death are axioms (God's law)... the only way in and out of this... place. No exceptions.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but I have bigger problems to deal with than this. As I mentioned before, the sons of Benjamin and Judah (the Jews) have invoked an ancestral claim to the land of Israel - when their claim should not have extended beyond Judea... a FACT that can be proven by Ezra's (Uzayr's) own records. This, by the way, is part of Al Qaeda's complaint and has to be addressed because that many people will DIE over it - if it isn't heard and fully understood.

I thought I had this worked out, but I ran into new problem... over another term... one that actually does confuse me.

What is an Israeli-Arab?

Ninth Scribe
Reply

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