Why do you believe? Part 1

[nimrod]

One of the first questions I had to answer for myself, is my choice of jobs really what I want to do with my life? The answer was yes, I like repairing things and I am very good at it.

The second question was, am I living in the part of the world I want to. There seemed to be a large number of folks around me that had never been much more than barely having crossed the state line. They said “Yep, Arkansas is God’s country”, I had to wonder, how do these people know? They have never been even three states away from it.
I have been sort of well traveled and I thought about the places I had been to and I decided that, yes I am happy in Arkansas. I am not sure I will remain here through out my retirement years, but it is likely I will.

The third question I pondered is why I vote as I do. When we are young we tend to be idealist, as we grow older we slant more toward the realist side of the equation.
I had voted mostly the republican ticket verses the democrat ticket. As I grew older I came to realize that both parties had feet of clay. Now days I tend to want to vote the 3rd party ticket, except I know that vote would mostly be meaningless. Now days I can say honestly that I am an independent voter. I am no longer a sheep.

The fourth question was, what do I believe about God or do I even believe in God. I tried to take the same logical approach to that question as I do to almost everything else in my life.
The first conclusion I came to is that for the non-believer there is no way to “prove” God one way or the other. That left me with judging the “probability” of God.

When I tried to come up with a criteria for judging the correct answer to this question I first turned to science. Science does not seek to prove or disprove God so it was of small help. The one aspect of the question that did seem helpful was that, many atheists seemed to try and use scientific findings to suggest that God doesn’t exist.
These folks seemed to be the most objective people of all, so I gave a lot of weight to what ever they had to say. Most of them seemed to be well read, objective people.
(I hope to continue this aspect of my thoughts on a later thread).


There was a time when that question 4 came to my mind often, in regards to people of faith.

The first group of them seemed to be born in to a certain faith because of their parents being of that faith. For me, they deserved the least amount of creditability when judging the reasons for their chosen faith. They were the ones that seemed to do the least amount of questioning as to why they believe what they believe. For me, they lacked objectivity, and for the most part, they still do.

Of a second group, some tell me they “had a feeling” come over them when they received a certain message from a sermon or inter-action with a person of a certain faith. This “feeling” allows the world and afterlife to make sense for them. This type person, for me, has very little more creditability in explaining why they believe what they believe than the first group.
But you can listen to them and their recounts and you can at least weigh where their belief comes from and why they believe. You can deduce whether they are a logical objective thinking person or not.
You can determine if they are sheep to be led easily or if they are aware and question what someone tells them. When you run into the latter type you can have an enlightening exchange of ideas.

The third type I have met claim to have had some revelation or personal inter-action with God. These people have the strongest type of faith. I had not understood the reason for that strength till an event happened to me personally (more on that on the second part thread).

I found this last type to be most frustrating. They came across as, ditzy and would have believed in a “personal revelation from the weatherman on their evening news broadcast”, or, they seemed to be logical, sane, people who would not be easily duped. Yet their personal revelation did nothing to help me understand enough to make a decision.

The first group, of this last type, could be written off easier than any other group. The second group, of this last type, are the ones I found most interesting and frustrating at the same time. The personal inter-actions or revelation seemed, to me, to be real and without a clear source. Often times their conversion seemed to come out of the blue. These weren’t the ones that were searching and just “found the first port in a storm”, so to speak.
I found them frustrating because, for them what they had experienced had a profound effect on them, yet for me it did nothing.

Till sometime later in life I didn’t spend much time thinking about “why people believe what they believe”. I just sorted the different people into the different categories I have listed above.

There comes a time in, any sane questioning person’s, life that we review “what” we believe and “why” we believe it. The person I have the least amount time for is the sheep that are easily led by a glib tongue or a family history of a certain belief. If you are the type that doesn’t question, then what good are you to those seeking answers? What objectivity do you have?

Science offers a lot of answers. Science is often dismissed by people of faith because science doesn’t “prove” or "agree with" what believers believe. For me my faith is based on something other than what science seeks to prove or disprove.

When I started seeking the answer to God, I was left with what was more probable.
One of the foremost questions I had to answer, was, what about the people that claim to have experienced something of the “super natural”? Mostly I wrote them of as kooks and cranks, and mostly with good reason. The word “mostly” in that statement is important.
It brought me to this question, what is the proper reasoning for believing what we believe about such folks.

I decided to approach the question from the aspect of “the law of probabilities”.
Of those that made claims of the super natural, how many were just kooks? 50%?
Of that remaining 50% what amount were honest and objective? 50%?
Of that remaining 1/4th what part was simply mistaken? 80%?

No matter how many times I sifted the examples, I was left with at least a few examples that were honest folks that were not mistaken and were objective enough and what they said couldn’t be simply dismissed.

In other words, the probability or the “existence of the super natural” can’t be reasonably logically reduced to 0%.

This brings me to why I first started to believe.

There was something that happened to me later in life that left me with no doubt.

I will post about that in “Why do you believe? Part 2”

The question I want to leave you with is this.

WHY do you believe?Objective answers only please.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Nicola]

Very interesting post thank you
Well nimod I fall into your third group of people also, I don't fully understand yet why I was choosen to be given this supernatural experience but praise God that I did, I cried for many months later why me? Besides the pure love and peace I was given, why was I told such terrible things and what could I do to about it.

I do know Jesus left me with no doubt at all about who He really is, I have no doubt that the Bible is the living word of God and that we are living in the endtimes.

Yes my faith is unbreakable, I know where I am going when I depart from here and where I came from and I praise God for that and everything he has given me in this world that I feel I no longer belong part of. I hunger and thirst for my Lords words and wisdom daily without Him I am nothing.

[glo]

Hi Nimrod

A fine thread for a fine Sunday morning! :)

I guess I started out in the first group. I was raised as a Catholic and participated in all the traditions attached to that - from christening to confession and first communion.
I didn't question, but also didn't really understand - I am not sure I even believed.
I had no sense of God's present or any perception of his working in my life.
Consequently I stuck with it as long as lived with my parents, but fell more and more away when I left home.

It wasn't until three years ago that I had a real sense of God being in my life and affecting my heart. It was a real sense of his presence, almost to the point of being 'spoken to' by Him.
I used to hear people refer to 'letting God into your heart' or 'giving you life to Jesus' - and it always sounded somewhat old-fashioned, and, to be honest, slightly mad! ;D
Only after I consciously, knowingly and willingly committed myself to be a Christian, did I realise that, not matter how strange these things sound, they do explain pretty well the relationship I now have with God.
I won't ramble any longer - but does that put me into the third category??? :happy:

Gotta go. God bless.
glo

[PrIM3]

lets see if I can put my thoughts into words:

well I guess like glo. I started out as a follower- I guess the one party of the group. when I thought about the idea of being baptized I was like HECK yeah for it I wanted to be baptized... though when it was time for me to get baptized, it was more of my dads idea. I never really concentrated on what God thought in my life. I mean I knew He was there but just never really looked to see if there was something bigger that I was missing out on.
when I went to church camp people asked me how long have I been a christian-- lol. just thinking about their thoughts after I gave them the answer--- "been one for my whole life." but hey now I know that you arn't born into the kingdom of Heaven but you are spiritually born into it causing you to be a christian--

Church camp was fun I felt loved and accepting by them from the camp I then went home and I would soon bump up from 1 to 3. I had this addiction that I had for 3 years. I prayed to God ,when I went home, to see if He could get rid of it. and ever since I have been liberated. and my thirst is bigger than it was before I went to church camp. I want to become a preacher or something like that someday.

sorry for my dialogue speach... grammar mistakes..

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Nicola]

been one for my whole life." but hey now I know that you arn't born into the kingdom of Heaven but you are spiritually born into it causing you to be a christian--

Thats so true prime...Jesus tells us we must be born-again to enter Gods Kingdom..
God has no grandchildren....lol :o)

[we need 2 unite]

sorry i dont mean to offend anyone, but i dont understand, christians believe that a baby is born with sin, and you need to be baptized.

[we need 2 unite]

can you explain

[Nicola]

sorry i dont mean to offend anyone, but i dont understand, christians believe that a baby is born with sin, and you need to be baptized.

what does that have to do with the thread?/ topic...
I don't understand

[we need 2 unite]

i am just curious you dont have to answer if you dont want to, but as you are christians i thought you can explain. no offence taken if you dont wish to respond. sorry if i offended you

[Nicola]

i am just curious you dont have to answer if you dont want to, but as you are christians i thought you can explain. no offence taken if you dont wish to respond. sorry if i offended you

no you didn't at all
I've answered your question in the other thread...babies in Christianity..
hope it helps

nic

[we need 2 unite]

thanks

[4-Christ-Alone]

Great thread nimrod,

I was born into a catholic family, had first communion and attended confession. But at that time i was to young to question God, it was just a part of life i was born into.

So when i was about 10 my mum left the catholic church, at 12 she joined a christian course, and experienced Christ in a way she had never before. She spent her time in the catholic church feeling guilty all the time, but when she left and found Jesus for who he was, that burdens where lifted from her.

So she soon started telling me of her new found faith in Christ. And about the overwelming feeling Jesus gave her as she surrendered. I then started to think about life, and the more i asked my mum questions about God, the more i believed of his exsistence.

I tried for a long time to feel the same feeling my mum had but never did, i then started to fill my life with drink and drugs. I also got involved in crime. So my life was in abit of a mess.

My mum got me out of the area we were living in, and one night i decided to go to her church (penticostal) and i walked out a dfferent person than i walked in. I know alot of people say they were touched through a sermon, but i was in Gods house and thats where his spirit was, and he called me, i responded. ( 7 months ago now)

So started to develop a relationship with God and Christ, but until a few months ago i hadnt really thought about, hmmm, an atheists view on how life began, or an evolutionists, or an islamics view.

But i have looked into all the different ways people believe life began, or how we got to where we are today, but no man or woman alive 2day can prove how life began, but what we do know is life did begin some where and some time. After looking at other faiths and religions and atheism, I started to have questions about my faith, and God has never let one go unanswered yet, i have came through my search a stronger christian and have stronger faith in Jesus.

So i am aware of alot of people views, but i have alot to learn and looking forward to the journey with Christ by my side.

but does this make sense....

If there was ever a time, when there was abslolitely nothing in exsistence, then i believe nothing would have ever come to exsist, but things do exsist.

Therefore there could never been a time on non exsistence, something has always been here, That ever exsistence is what i, and alot of people call God :-)

God bless brothers and sisters

Sean :-)

[Al-Zaara]

Greetings nimrod,

Wow, first of all, what an interesting post. I took my time to read it and I got that kind of feeling like "I won't be able to answe his question with "great/big words" or be very objective, but I will try".
But I must say, my post answers your question "Why do you believe?" and I am afraid I may not be so "objective", so please, forgive me.

Answer:

First of all, I think I can't exactly be categorized to any of your 4 groups.
Yes, I am born in a Muslim family, yet I can state that it's not the only reason why I believe in Islam and Allah.

Since I can remember I have believed. In what? In something, and now I know in what. I think that children can feel something very special, that they have a some kind of "gift" that tells them of something greater.. this "gift" may or may not, disapear by the time they get older. But this is just something I think, not believe in, but think that children posses.

When I was little, I as the kid I was, never really understood what "God" meant, but what I understood was that God was my friend.
I may sound dramatic now, so don't roll your eyes or sigh or anything. XD

I have a blury memory of when my parents said Allah for the first time when I was around and I just got this "feeling". A feeling of "knowing" Allah... Like Allah was my old old friend or more like someone like me, yet so much greater... Someone veery special. This, when I was 6, a kid who had begun to "think on her own".

I didn't take me long to then learn more about Islam and Allah.
I had no doubt in my heart, this is my faith and Allah is the Creator of the Universe and everything in it. For the first time ever, I finally had "met" someone who understood me better than anyone else in this whole life.

I have maybe a "perfect" relationship with my parents and sisters, alhamdulillah, and of I know I can trust my parents and they love me and I love them... But.
Allah is my best friend and my Lord. I'm his slave and friend. And only Allah loves me more than my parents... And Allah is the one I know will ALWAYS be there, never go away and that Allah will be the one I should trust in moments of fear and saddness, the one I should remeber when I am happy and healthy.

I feel like being a slave of Allah, is being his friend.

I don't actually need to question my faith, so many have already done that job, and sometimes people come up with more questions. I seek answers from the Qur'an, Islam and Allah (swt). This gives me an opportunity to learn something new every day and my faith has, alhamdulillah, not been weak in any form. I have a strong faith and thank Allah for this faith and the strenght Allah always gives me.


I hope you "liked" my answer or something. :happy:



Peace!

[glo]

Great thread nimrod,

I tried for a long time to feel the same feeling my mum had but never did, i then started to fill my life with drink and drugs. I also got involved in crime. So my life was in abit of a mess.

My mum got me out of the area we were living in, and one night i decided to go to her church (penticostal) and i walked out a dfferent person than i walked in. I know alot of people say they were touched through a sermon, but i was in Gods house and thats where his spirit was, and he called me, i responded. ( 7 months ago now)

So started to develop a relationship with God and Christ, but until a few months ago i hadnt really thought about, hmmm, an atheists view on how life began, or an evolutionists, or an islamics view.

but does this make sense....

God bless brothers and sisters

Sean :-)

Great testimony, Sean!
Thanks for sharing it. :)

God Bless.

[glo]

Answer:

First of all, I think I can't exactly be categorized to any of your 4 groups.
Yes, I am born in a Muslim family, yet I can state that it's not the only reason why I believe in Islam and Allah.

Since I can remember I have believed. In what? In something, and now I know in what. I think that children can feel something very special, that they have a some kind of "gift" that tells them of something greater.. this "gift" may or may not, disapear by the time they get older. But this is just something I think, not believe in, but think that children posses.

When I was little, I as the kid I was, never really understood what "God" meant, but what I understood was that God was my friend.
I may sound dramatic now, so don't roll your eyes or sigh or anything. XD

I have a blury memory of when my parents said Allah for the first time when I was around and I just got this "feeling". A feeling of "knowing" Allah... Like Allah was my old old friend or more like someone like me, yet so much greater... Someone veery special. This, when I was 6, a kid who had begun to "think on her own".

I didn't take me long to then learn more about Islam and Allah.
I had no doubt in my heart, this is my faith and Allah is the Creator of the Universe and everything in it. For the first time ever, I finally had "met" someone who understood me better than anyone else in this whole life.

I have maybe a "perfect" relationship with my parents and sisters, alhamdulillah, and of I know I can trust my parents and they love me and I love them... But.
Allah is my best friend and my Lord. I'm his slave and friend. And only Allah loves me more than my parents... And Allah is the one I know will ALWAYS be there, never go away and that Allah will be the one I should trust in moments of fear and saddness, the one I should remeber when I am happy and healthy.

I feel like being a slave of Allah, is being his friend.

I don't actually need to question my faith, so many have already done that job, and sometimes people come up with more questions. I seek answers from the Qur'an, Islam and Allah (swt). This gives me an opportunity to learn something new every day and my faith has, alhamdulillah, not been weak in any form. I have a strong faith and thank Allah for this faith and the strenght Allah always gives me.


I hope you "liked" my answer or something. :happy:



Peace!

Thank you for sharing that, sis!
What strikes me is that real faith is based on an active step by the believer. Faith doesn't seem to come, unless we seek God - even for those people who grew up in a particular religion.

When God calls, you either follow ... or walk to other way. :rollseyes

Blessings.

[Abdul Fattah]

Why do you believe? That's an extremely dificult question. I was born in a christian enviroment and used to be atheistic the largest part of my life but reverted to Islam about a year ago. I'm writing a book, simply to answer the question you have just asked. And so far I'm at 70+ pages. So I'll try to summerise, but it'll take a while. First of all, (most) People don't believe for something but rather because of something. Believing is a question of being convinced. And you cannot choose to be convinced. You either are or you aren't. However. This being convinced does depends on factors within your own control.

The truth.
When it comes to obvious truths such as: “Objects fall when left in mid air.” it is quite easy to test them and see for yourself. But dealing with less obvious truths out of the fields of sociology, religion, psychology, ethics, etc …; we suddenly find their testability a bit more challenging. And even if such a given theory is testable, it is still easy to reach the wrong conclusions from the results of a test. Another method is to look at the usability of a theory to validate truth over falsehood. The most useful city map will most likely be the most true. After sending a rocket to the moon using nothing more then Newtonian physics it seems absurd to still question its validity. It is useful, therefore it must be true. It is often forgotten in debate that this theory only works in one way. The theory fails to show something is not true. One can’t assume falseness simply because a theory does not serve an immediate or observable purpose, nor enables us to make a prediction of its applicability. For this very reason people are careful with string theory and other aspects of quantum science, calling it philosophical theories rather then scientific ones. As right as they linguistically might be in doing so; one mustn’t forget that although the simplified city map might be easier to read; the detailed map might nevertheless still be the closest resemblance to the actual street grid. Newtonian physics might be sufficient to land a rocket on the moon. When we start examining the world of the very small however; we notice that it doesn’t suffice. There we need a whole new theory -quantum physics- to describe what’s going. How can we use gravity to examine the world of the very large and quantum physics to describe the rules of the very small when both are in the same universe! When we study black holes, where both the rules of the very large apply due to the great mass of these stars , as well as the rules of the very small because of the small volume in space these stars take up; which one do we choose? Using both give us nonsensical results. So although both are correct, at least one of the two is obviously inaccurate.

Let's talk about paradigms.
Our most basic way of verifying truths -our own logic- is fallible. We cannot test the logic of something without making assumptions. It would be like building up mathematical laws without using axioms . We call the sum of these assumed truths, on which we base our logical reasoning on, a paradigm. A paradigm isn’t a certainty. Not even in the way a theory is certain. A theory is an explanation of certain events, like Newton’s theory of gravity which describes the relation between different objects with mass. A paradigm is a set of assumptions; that aren’t meant to be tested. Most of them are made on an unconscious level. They are a necessary evil used by individuals, scientists and even societies on a daily basis. It’s like a simplified map of reality, which allows you to find your way in the chaos of our daily life. The danger within these assumptions lies in the fact that they trigger opinions and theories. These will on their turn serve as proof for the original assumption since those assumptions are build into it. This will eventually build up an impenetrable network of tainted views.
Thes are inevitable. Every single person makes them. Such a paradigm is a home. It is a safe haven whenever a thought comes along that looks threatening. It is a reliable friend by whom’s terms you like to discuss. It is a rope when the unknown feels like a black abyss. But quite frankly; it’s a fantasy build to protect you from the chaotic world in your daily life. It is the simplified map which is easy to read but unrepresentative.

Personal preforance.
If you don't "want" to believe you will be able to come up with more then enough reasons not to do so, and if you "want" to believe you will be able to come up with enough reasons to do so to. Usually this wanting is not a constant factor. It can be on a subconscient level, it can be a decision from within your yought wich trigered an (apearently) out fo control chain of reasoning that has you stuck.

Pesonal expieriance.
then finally the most important creterion is personal expieriance. (As you said, those who base their religion on events in their life seem to have the strongest faith.) Person expieriance goes a long way. If in theory, a religion sounds perfect to you, but your life expieriance tells you difrently you will have troubles accepting it and the other way around, If in theorry it seemes flawwed but your expieriance tells you it's the real thing, again the theory won't matter much. I don't know what makes an expieriance religiously inspiring, why some people have them and other not. My guess is that -simular to chosing paradigms- personal preferance plays a big role again. Because an event isn't really that special. It's the thoughts that go along with it, the feelnig you have that really matters.

So in conclusion, to answer your question: why do I believe?
=> Because I am convinced.
=> Because I read the Qur'an and recognised it. Not recognised as in I read it before, but rather recognised it, as this cannot be anything else then the words of Allah.

This explenation is far from complete, there are a lot of other things that play a role. But in my opinion this is what it comes down to.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Steve's posts=Uber complicated!

For me, accepting Islam was an intellectual choice, not an emotional one. I don't think just having faith in something with no evidence (except from personal experience) is very logical.
:w:

[Abdul Fattah]

:sl:
Steve's posts=Uber complicated!

LOL
I don't know if that's an insult or a compliment. ;D

If there's anything that requires further explenation, just ask.

[Fishman]

LOL
I don't know if that's an insult or a compliment. ;D

If there's anything that requires further explenation, just ask.

:sl:
It's both!!!

How did you become convinced?
:w:

[Abdul Fattah]

How did you become convinced?

By reading the qur'an :)

Of course there's a whole series of events that preceded me reading it and which might have influenced the way I interpreted my reading.

[Woodrow]

I may be viewing the question wrong. I see the question as being answerable from more then one view. Such as, I can answer in terms of why I believe it was right for me to revert to Islam or I can answer in terms of why I personaly believe Islam is true.

I have answered in terms of the first view several times in this forum on different threads. So this time I will answer in terms of Why I believe Islam to be true.

I believe God (swt) exists.

I believe God(swt) has revealed himself to mankind through th Propets, begining with Adam, to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and others known and unknown (Peace be upon all of them)

I believe God(swt) has sent us directions through the Prophets(PBUT) on what is expected of us and how we are to worship HIm.

I believe Mankind has failed to follow the word each time it was given and finaly God(swt) sent the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) with the final prohecies revealed through the Qur'an

I believe the Qur'an to be the true word of God(swt) because:
Scientific findings do back up and verify things in it that could not have been known during the time of Muhammad.

Historicaly it is the only scripture that has remained intact and unchanged since it was revealed.

The coming of Mohammad was prophicized in the Jewish Torah, The Old Testement and in the New Testement.

It did not come as a replacement for what was previously revealed, it is simply a correction of the misconceptions that human error caused to happen to what was previously given.

[glo]

By reading the qur'an :)

Of course there's a whole series of events that preceded me reading it and which might have influenced the way I interpreted my reading.

Hi Steve

Tell us more!
(As long as you don't get übercomplicated!) ;D

Peace.

[iLL_LeaT]

Why do you believe? That's an extremely dificult question...

The truth.
... dealing with less obvious truths out of the fields of sociology, religion, psychology, ethics, etc …

I agree. You are a wise man. Well that’s what I believe.

Subjects such as belief and truth (if you ask me they are the same thing. one only believes something is true. However, that is only my belief), it is quite difficult to decide what is true and what is false.

Even science can be argued as false. Because science is ever evolving and changing, in 1000 years people may think completely different about things we consider true. The modern way of thinking is less then 500 years old; imagine how differently people may think in about 1000 years.

Questions like, “Who is truly right,” are almost impossible to answer. Because I think it is okay to eat pork, that does not mean you think it is okay. How do we know who’s right is right? We can’t determine that, and that is why some wars are started. Someone thinks there right is more right then the others. This is of course known as “ethnocentrism.” Forming bias opinions of others, deciding the way you do things is better then the others.

If you come to some kind of realization that right or wrong is the person’s opinion on how things should be done, is it safe to say there is no right or wrong?

This idea of what you believe to be to be right is different then what I believe to be right so there may be no right, this idea can be applied to all beliefs. I can almost say that no two people have the same religion. How could two people who live completely different lives interoperate there holy book the same? Just because it has the same text does not mean I will get the exact same thing out of it as anyone else.

Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person.

[Woodrow]

ill-leat

Quoting from you:

"Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person."

In order for there to be fair Judgement it means that God(swt) has or must have instilled in all of mankind a basic concept of good and evil. Unless a person is truly insane, there are things a person will know as not to be pleasing to God(swt). Perhaps they will be given a different name.

Now, with that said, it is fair for a person to be judged on what their inner self tells them is right. However, some people become so good at deceiving themselves and striving for self gratification that they establish themselves as their own god and worship only themselves. Although over time that becomes an ingrained belief it began as a consious effort to provide for their own wishes at any cost.

therefore I see no conflict in how God(swt) chooses to judge anyone. We know he will judge justly and fairly, that does not always mean equaly.

[iLL_LeaT]

ill-leat

Quoting from you:

"Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person."

In order for there to be fair Judgement it means that God(swt) has or must have instilled in all of mankind a basic concept of good and evil. Unless a person is truly insane, there are things a person will know as not to be pleasing to God(swt). Perhaps they will be given a different name.

Now, with that said, it is fair for a person to be judged on what their inner self tells them is right. However, some people become so good at deceiving themselves and striving for self gratification that they establish themselves as their own god and worship only themselves. Although over time that becomes an ingrained belief it began as a consious effort to provide for their own wishes at any cost.

therefore I see no conflict in how God(swt) chooses to judge anyone. We know he will judge justly and fairly, that does not always mean equaly.

There is a lot of assumption going on here.

Assumptions:
1 there is a God
2 that is the way God does things
3 there is any kind of judgment
4 there is a hereafter

My only real point is that there is no way to know anything. Because everyone has a different way of looking at things, it even furthers this complication. How can I say what I believe is truer then what you believe? I definitely can not. The same as how you can’t say that about me. There is no way to “truly” anything.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Those assumptions that I listed above very well may be the truth. However, they also may not be. How can anyone say what they believe is true, even if they feel it from the bottom of their heart, if someone else feels differently about the same thing from the bottom of their heart?

Most atheists “know” there is no God. However, most religious people “know” there is a God. Just because someone feels they are 100% right does not make them right.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.

[Abdul Fattah]

@Glo
If you wish to know more, ther's a link in my profile that 'll bring you to a small summery of my religious search. And peopel can still email me at steve.dhondt@gmail.com for a copy of my book. It's far from complete, but I got most of the relevant things in there. And I am currently looking for feedback on that book.

@iLL_LeaT

If you come to some kind of realization that right or wrong is the person’s opinion on how things should be done, is it safe to say there is no right or wrong?

I wouldn't jump to conclusions like that. See the reason we cannot beyond reasonable doubt establish wheter or not pork is ok to eat has several resons. First of all we need to define "okay"; since we will most likely have difrent criterion. Then somewhere along the line our difrent religions will probably become relavant to. So in the end it's all a question of faith. And there's no way to know wich vieuw is accurate, which view is "right". But just because we are unable to establish that, doesn't mean that there is no true and untrue. All difrent defenitions of "true" and "reality" aside, there is a "real" wheter we are able to define it or not. well from a philosophical pov we can even deny that, but that seems rather pointless to persue if you ask me.
Now in a simular reasoning we could say there's a "real" set of morals and ethic. Wheter we can define them or not. And if we look at history we can see that at difrent places -independant of one another- there have always been universal morals that kept coming back.

Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person.

Just because someoen was a victem, doesn't make him qualified to judge.
Allah on the other hand seems very qualified (of course as an agnostic you don't believe in Allah, but for the sake of argument if you accept his existance for a second, ..)
So what are these qualifications? Lets look at how Islam sees God:
1. He created everything. Without his the universe wouldn't exist. We wouldn't exist. there would be nothing to judge upon. We owe everything to him, in his mercy. Or to put it in 1337: all our base belongs to him :)
2. He has unlimited knowledge. He knows everything. Which paradigm is true. What is right, what is wrong. What our motivations are, what our intentions are. He knows every single thing that could be consider as relevant. Not only that, but he has the insight of measure these things from one another.
3. He is the most righteous (it's one of his 99 names)
4. He is the most mercifull (also one of his names)
Now this isn't a necesairy creterion for judgement. An neutral judgement can also be considered as righteous. But I think you see how this makes him a more desirable judge.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.

the point is not for us to decide what is right. Because the "right" doesn't need our acceptance. I'm sure you are familiar with: if a tree falls and nobody's there to hear it, does it make a sound? Does sound need an audiance to exist? Does right and wrong need our acceptance to exist?

[Woodrow]

There is a lot of assumption going on here.

Assumptions:
1 there is a God
2 that is the way God does things
3 there is any kind of judgment
4 there is a hereafter

My only real point is that there is no way to know anything. Because everyone has a different way of looking at things, it even furthers this complication. How can I say what I believe is truer then what you believe? I definitely can not. The same as how you can’t say that about me. There is no way to “truly” anything.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Those assumptions that I listed above very well may be the truth. However, they also may not be. How can anyone say what they believe is true, even if they feel it from the bottom of their heart, if someone else feels differently about the same thing from the bottom of their heart?

Most atheists “know” there is no God. However, most religious people “know” there is a God. Just because someone feels they are 100% right does not make them right.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.

Yep, lots of assumptions on my part. One of the problems with phiosopical and religious debates.

I will say we do have a lot we do agree on. I think basicaly we choose different brands of glasses to look at them.

I totaly agree with you on this statement, even if it may be for different reasons.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Peace be with you, it is the differences that eventually bring about understanding and tolerance. I feel that assumptions are a good place to begin valid discussion. But, that is my assumption.

[iLL_LeaT]

Peace be with you, it is the differences that eventually bring about understanding and tolerance. I feel that assumptions are a good place to begin valid discussion. But, that is my assumption.

It is agreed. We will look at things differently and yet still respect each other. Wow, acceptance of diversity is so beautiful. If only everyone could do the same.

In the words of John Lennon, "All we need is love."

[Joe98]

-

The following applies to me too:

I was raised as a Catholic and participated in all the traditions attached to that - from christening to confession and first communion.

I didn't question, but also didn't really understand - I am not sure I even believed.

I had no sense of God's present or any perception of his working in my life.

Consequently I stuck with it as long as lived with my parents, but fell more and more away when I left home.

The truth.
When it comes to obvious truths such as: “Objects fall when left in mid air.” it is quite easy to test them ……But dealing with less obvious truths out of the fields of sociology, religion…..we suddenly find their testability a bit more challenging.

Actually it is quite easy to test:


Theory: Allah is all powerful

In the last 3 years natural disasters have killed 350,000 people globally and left 100,000 homeless. In the previous 10,000 years many millions were killed too.



Theory: Allah is all forgiving.

If people sin they will have eternal damnation!!!!



Theory: Allah is perfect

10,000 years after Allah placed humans on the earth, He decided to give us a prophet. The Word of God was given to Moses but that Word was imperfect.

God waited 1,000 years to fix the problem. He gave the Word to Jesus but that too was imperfect.

He waited another 600 years to give the True Word of God to Mohammad (pbuh)


In the mean time many have strayed and most still don't know the Word of God. He better do something soon!


Theory: Allah is all loving


He decided to wait 10,000 years after placing humans on the earth, the give humans the secret to combat diseases. For the first 10,000 years he kept the solution secret.

-

[Abdul Fattah]

Actually it is quite easy to test:

you think this simple calculation comes even close to testing religion? I for one will not trow away my religion because of it. Never the less your example is most welcome because it allows me to illustrate my point perfectly. The problem with paradigms is. when considering a part of someone else's paradigm it seems absurd. You could compare it with a puzzle. If you take a piece of a puzzle from someone else's puzzle, and try and fit that piece in with your pieces, you 'll see it doesn't work. That's because your own puzzle is (as is mine) full of assumptions. So in order to genuinly study that piece, you need to consider the whole puzzle, not just the single piece.
To try and explain it in a lil less abstract way:
You take a single concept (piece of puzzle) like a deity, and try to fit that in with your atheistic paradigm. Of course teh piece won't fit, because you forgot to see all the other pieces it fits with:

Theory: Allah is all powerful
In the last 3 years natural disasters have killed 350,000 people globally and left 100,000 homeless. In the previous 10,000 years many millions were killed too.

This brings what is known as epicurus riddle: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing, then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing, then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing, then why call him God?
First let me rule out some of those possibilitys; according to Islam God is able (omnipotent). So that leaves out unwilling. Allah allowed these things to happen. And I can see how you would describe these events as bad. And I understand if one of them would hit you personal that you experience it as bad. So I understand if you would think alowing this to happen is malevolent. However when judging this as such, you're forgetting to consider two important parts of the puzzle. First of all, this puzzle is all about people being created by a creator. We’re given an existence and a limited stay on this earth. Holding a grudge against your creator because your stay here is limited doesn’t make sense. Is it malevolent for for producers to make films that have an ending? Is it malevolent for a writer to write a book that has an ending? Can you blame God for alowing you only a limited stay here? Shouldn't you be thankfull you were given a stay at all? Since this limited stay is a test, the end of a person’s stay is covered under the veil of death. Would it not be covered; and people would be snatched away from this world to the next in an obvious way; then it would ruin the “test” for the rest of us. It would make religion an obvious thing rather then a question of believe and faith.
The second thing you missed out is that this puzzle claims that death is a transition, and that everybody will be rewarded according to what they earn after it. That puts the “disaster” into perspective.

What is that perspective worth to you if you don’t believe that? It probably won’t mean a lot. But you cannot claim the concept of an omnipotent God is flawed due to your personal believes.

Theory: Allah is all forgiving.
If people sin they will have eternal damnation!!!!

I never said that. Islam never claimed that. You're confusing Allah with the cristian God. According to Islam not everybody will eb forgiven, some will be punisched for their sins. I said Allah is the most just and the most mercifull.
The most just means that some will be punished and some rewarded. If everybody would be forgiven, would that be just? Are the blind equal to the seeing? Are the deaf equal to the hearing? ? Are the death equal to the living? Can you imagine a heaven where people like hitler are walking around?
The most mercifull means that Allah gives more then he recieves. That his criterion in judging is in our favour, as explained in teh following hadeeth:
The system of recording of deeds is detailed in Hadith Qudsi. Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas in which he narrates from his Lord:
Indeed, Allah has defined the good and the evil deeds, and then explained them. So, whoever had the thought to do a good deed, but did not do it, Allah writes it for him as a complete good deed, while if he actually did it. Allah writes it for him as ten good deeds, or up to seven hundred fold, or even many times more. And, if he had a thought to do an evil deed, but dispelled the thought and did not do it. Allah writes it for him as a complete good deed, while if he entertained the thought and acted on it, Allah writes it as a single evil deed.
Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim

Theory: Allah is perfect
10,000 years after Allah placed humans on the earth, He decided to give us a prophet. The Word of God was given to Moses but that Word was imperfect.
God waited 1,000 years to fix the problem. He gave the Word to Jesus but that too was imperfect.
He waited another 600 years to give the True Word of God to Mohammad (pbuh)
In the mean time many have strayed and most still don't know the Word of God. He better do something soon!

First of all there where thousands of prophets so it's not like humanity had to wait all those years for guidance. And in the beginning the words of all the prophets were good, it's only later that peopel corrupted the difrent scriptures. Again you're failing to see the whole picture. If you consider the existance of a perfect God, you need to consider his intentions to or your attempt is vain and futille. Yes people still stray. But is that because God isn't perfect? No, if he wanted he could have made it so that everyone would follow him, but that would defeat the purpose of testing us. Life is a test to see what we do with our freedom of choice. It all hapens for a reason.

Theory: Allah is all loving
He decided to wait 10,000 years after placing humans on the earth, the give humans the secret to combat diseases. For the first 10,000 years he kept the solution secret.

You are again confusing Allah with the christian God. Allah does not love the sinners and evil-doers. He does not love all, but I can imagen you'd feel that doesn't quite answer your argument. Well have no fear, there's more. This argument is also flawed for the same reasons as the previous examples. First of all disease is a part of creation, it is one of the veils of death and created with the purpose of ending our stay here without making the master plan obvious. Second of all, although it seems logical to judge a disease as "bad" it doesn't mean that God is un-loving for creating this disease. Or for that matter for creating bad things all toghether. It is all part of the test. And eventually the more mishabs you have to endure, the better your reward will be inshallah in the next life. And at that point, when living an eternal life, the limited mishabs here on earth won't look that major. Let alone that you judge life here on earth as bad in general, because not everybody shares that opinion either. even peoelp with lots of mishabs can still apreciate and love life, with it's lesser atractive features.