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*charisma*
04-23-2006, 08:07 AM
Greetings,

Something I never really understood in Christianity is the role of the babies. Why are they born sinful? I understand how it goes back to generations of when Adam and Eve sinned passed down to the new generation, but they're babies! Also, If a baby died before being baptized or any of that..do they go to hell??

Peace
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glo
04-23-2006, 08:42 AM
Hi,

I'm not sure I am best qualified to answer your question, but I will try - I am sure that people will correct me if necessary.

I think there are two different issues here.
Yes, Christians believe that all humans are sinners, and that since Adam and Eve broke God's law, all fall short of God's commands. The Old Testament domenstrates over and over again, how the tribe of Israel again and again sinned against God, despite everything He did for them.
And we know for ourselves how difficult (or should that be 'impossible'?) it is to be obedient and good in God's eyes.
Not a day goes by that I don't sin or do wrong. Would you agree?

So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.
Some Christian denominations deal with this problem by christening small babies, but overall Christianity does not teach that children go to hell.
But Jesus loved children and said that 'their's would be the kingdom of God'.
As far as I understand children cannot make a real decision in what they believe, until they reach a certain age (i.e. teenage years). Until they are old enough to make that decision, they will always enter the kingdom of God.
The same applies to adults wo are mentally incapable of making such a decision.

Does that answer your question?
I feel very rambly this morning!:giggling:

Peace,
glo
Reply

*charisma*
04-23-2006, 08:32 PM
Greetings

Thanks for the reply :)

So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.
Some Christian denominations deal with this problem by christening small babies, but overall Christianity does not teach that children go to hell.
So sinners dont go to hell?? and if babies dont go to hell then they arent sinning? or they dont have sin? what if they dont get baptized before they die? im getting confused :-[

As far as I understand children cannot make a real decision in what they believe, until they reach a certain age (i.e. teenage years). Until they are old enough to make that decision, they will always enter the kingdom of God.
The same applies to adults wo are mentally incapable of making such a decision
I agree with that part

peace
Reply

glo
04-23-2006, 09:01 PM
Hello again. :)

Firstly, I am glad that you are agreeing with some of my post! :giggling:

So sinners dont go to hell?? and if babies dont go to hell then they arent sinning? or they dont have sin? what if they dont get baptized before they die? im getting confused
I will try to explain to the best of my knowledge.
As a Christian I believe that all people are sinners. We can try to live a good and holy life, but we will always fall short of God's standards. (Would you as a Muslim agree with that?)
Therefore we cannot earn entry into God's kingdom. But God grants us entry in his mercy, when we repent our sins and believe in Him. Jesus said that the only way to enter heaven is 'through him'. Christians believe that our sins have only become forgivable, because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us by giving his life.
The decision to become a Christian is really something we do individually in our hearts, and it is between the individual and God - but as a public declaration we are baptised. The baptism is a symbol of the end of the old life and the beginning of a new life as a believer.

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.

However, some Christian denominations have the tradition of christening babies, usually at a very young age. That doesn't mean that all unchristened children go to hell. It is more of a declaration of the parents to bring up the child in the Christian faith.

No baby turns into a Christian just by being christened. Becoming a Christian is a conscious decision, which is made at a more mature age.

Am I making any more sense??? :rollseyes ... I am trying! ;D

Gotta go now.

Peace,
glo
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*charisma*
04-23-2006, 09:37 PM
Greetings

As a Christian I believe that all people are sinners. We can try to live a good and holy life, but we will always fall short of God's standards. (Would you as a Muslim agree with that?)
yea

Therefore we cannot earn entry into God's kingdom. But God grants us entry in his mercy, when we repent our sins and believe in Him.
agreed

Jesus said that the only way to enter heaven is 'through him'. Christians believe that our sins have only become forgivable, because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us by giving his life.
oh ok, so if jesus pbuh didn't sacrifice himself for the people's sins, no one's sins would be forgivable right?

The decision to become a Christian is really something we do individually in our hearts, and it is between the individual and God - but as a public declaration we are baptised. The baptism is a symbol of the end of the old life and the beginning of a new life as a believer.
i understand that so far..

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.
ok so like children aren't sinners because they are too young to sin, but they are born as sinners, meaning when they grow up they will eventually become sinners? right?
and if that's what you meant, then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? They could possibly die right before they understand the meaning of life and religion etc etc..so then they werent ever sinners to begin with...

However, some Christian denominations have the tradition of christening babies, usually at a very young age. That doesn't mean that all unchristened children go to hell. It is more of a declaration of the parents to bring up the child in the Christian faith.
'
ah i see, but i thought the purpose of being baptized was to be cleansed of sin?

No baby turns into a Christian just by being christened. Becoming a Christian is a conscious decision, which is made at a more mature age.
*confused again* so then technically with this, babies arent born christian? if so, what religion are they born into?

Am I making any more sense??? ... I am trying!
somewhat :D thanks!!

peace
Reply

Nicola
04-23-2006, 11:18 PM
Hiya

thought I would answer here...instead of the other thread..hope you don't mind


[QUOTE=*charisma*;271807]Greetings



oh ok, so if jesus pbuh didn't sacrifice himself for the people's sins, no one's sins would be forgivable right?
It was his sacrifice also his blood...blood is life, his blood is the most precious of all because he was the only human ever to walk the earth who was sinless...in the OT God always required blood for the atonement of sins, with pure unblemished calfs, goats..etc...but this atonement never lasted, from the OT we always knew God would send someone who would atone for our sins...plenty of scriptures lead us to that. Jesus' blood covers our sins..just like God told the jews to cover their door posts, so he would not kill their first borns...(passover)



ok so like children aren't sinners because they are too young to sin, but they are born as sinners, meaning when they grow up they will eventually become sinners? right? and if that's what you meant, then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? They could possibly die right before they understand the meaning of life and religion etc etc..so then they werent ever sinners to begin with...

We are born in sin...it isn't that a baby is sinful...every baby but one grows up to be sinful...I do not know one person in all my life (literaly) that has not sinned...so all babies grow up sinning...
I asked this on another thread...if what you are saying...
then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? Do you actually know a baby who has grown up and never sinned..
what % of babies do you believe grow up into adults and never sin ever?

They all do.
'
ah i see, but i thought the purpose of being baptized was to be cleansed of sin?
No it's Jesus' blood that cleanses us...we are cleansed from sin, as soon as we accept Jesus into our life...the baptizm comes later...depending on each person...

*confused again* so then technically with this, babies arent born christian? if so, what religion are they born into?
Like again I said in another post :o)...God has no grandchildren...we can't rely on our parents etc to get us into heaven, if they are Christian, that is them...this is us!
Some people go to church every week and never recieve the Spirit of God dwelling inside of them. It can be for all different reasons.
Babies have no religion...if you like they get a free pass up until the age, that they are able to know and understand about God and Jesus...and then are able to choose themselves...Christianity can't be forced, you can't be born into it...but as Christian parents...we do plant the seed into their minds...the rest is between God and themselves.


Luke 8:4-8


Jesus told this parable: [5] 'A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. [6] Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. [7] Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. [8] Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.' When he said this, he called out, 'He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'


When the seed is sown in someones heart...Gods word (The Bible)...these are the things that will happen to that seed, depending on each person.



hope this helps
nic
God Bless
Reply

Hussein radi
04-23-2006, 11:37 PM
This is funny. I learned a lot about christianity in an islamic website.
Reply

*charisma*
04-23-2006, 11:54 PM
Greetings

Hiya charisma
thought I would answer here...instead of the other thread..hope you don't mind
hey no problem, thanks :)

It was his sacrifice also his blood...blood is life, his blood is the most precious of all because he was the only human ever to walk the earth who was sinless...in the OT God always required blood for the atonement of sins, with pure unblemished calfs, goats..etc...but this atonement never lasted, from the OT we always knew God would send someone who would atone for our sins...plenty of scriptures lead us to that. Jesus' blood covers our sins..just like God told the jews to cover their door posts, so he would not kill their first borns...(passover)
so after jesus pbuh was sacrificed for everyone's sins, everyone who accepts jesus pbuh into their hearts etc etc they shall enter paradise despite how big their sins may be? So can i conclude the purpose for hell is for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord?

We are born in sin...it isn't that a baby is sinful...every baby but one grows up to be sinful...I do not know one person in all my life (literaly) that has not sinned...so all babies grow up sinning...
I asked this on another thread...if what you are saying...
then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? Do you actually know a baby who has grown up and never sinned..
what % of babies do you believe grow up into adults and never sin ever?
They all do.
I'm not asking in respects of adulthood or speaking of future tense, i understand that everyone will grow up to be sinners, but babies themselves (presently) aren't sinners meaning as babies they aren't sinning, like you said they are too young to understand what they are doing so they arent sinning.

No it's Jesus' blood that cleanses us...we are cleansed from sin, as soon as we accept Jesus into our life...the baptizm comes later...depending on each person...
So then, like glo said its just to declare that the child will be brough up as a christian?

Like again I said in another post :o)...God has no grandchildren...we can't rely on our parents etc to get us into heaven, if they are Christian, that is them...this is us!
Some people go to church every week and never recieve the Spirit of God dwelling inside of them. It can be for all different reasons.
But as christians aren't you supposed to guide others into christianity? so wouldnt the parents' jobs as good christian parents help guide their children to the 'truth'.

Babies have no religion...if you like they get a free pass up until the age, that they are able to know and understand about God and Jesus...and then are able to choose themselves...Christianity can't be forced, you can't be born into it...but as Christian parents...we do plant the seed into their minds...the rest is between God and themselves.
but if they have no religion as you say, if they grow up with hypocritical parents who really don't care about Jesus and the church etc etc. and they dont ever have proper guidance even in the generality of religion itself, will the sins of that child brought up as an ignorant adult (of christianity) be forgiven? Because its hard to tell by just looking at a christian if they are practicing or not, so it's not something that is always observable..

will it be their fault that they haven't learned these vital religious lessons from the parents that were supposed to help guide them?

and what is the purpose of a christian living if all your sins can easily be forgiven, so then would you be dying free of sin if you were a devout christian??

and in christianity is sin repetitive? for example, if porn was forbidden..and a christian published massive porn magazines, in which other christians will sin by looking at them, it would be a sin for eachtime anyone viewed that magazine both for the publisher and the viewer, so how does one repent to be forgiven and for how long?? is there a limit?



thanks again!

peace
Reply

Muslim Knight
04-24-2006, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.
These are contradicting statements, are they not?

What about babies that die shortly after birth without being christened?

We Muslims are taught instead that all babies are born in the state of fitrah (pure and sinless). Infants who die at early age, by the Grace of God, are admitted into Paradise.
Reply

Nicola
04-24-2006, 01:17 AM
Greetings


hey no problem, thanks :)
thanks

so after jesus pbuh was sacrificed for everyone's sins, everyone who accepts jesus pbuh into their hearts etc etc they shall enter paradise despite how big their sins may be? So can i conclude the purpose for hell is for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord?

Yes, to an extent...only God knows whats in our hearts, people can call themselves Christians, but if they are, they will change literally. It is something supernatural that takes place within yourself..

It is very noticable to people who know them well..If they don't begin to start changing they have not really except Jesus into their lives..
When we accept Jesus we repent from our heart of all our past sins...not just Ok I believe in you Jesus..now my sins are forgiven...and a free pass into heaven. No it doesn't work like that..
God knows if it is geniune or not..someone who isn't they will not change at all...still the same sinful nature..and Jesus tells us on Judgement he will turn away those kinds of people...
The person who is born-again spiritually like Jesus tells us will happen...these are the people who are true Christians...they will become christ-like in their ways...all born-again Christians though different characters will all possess the same qualities..always. This is how I can tell a born-again Christian from a person calling themselves a Christian..It is soooooo totally different.


I'm not asking in respects of adulthood or speaking of future tense, i understand that everyone will grow up to be sinners, but babies themselves (presently) aren't sinners meaning as babies they aren't sinning, like you said they are too young to understand what they are doing so they arent sinning.
So then, like glo said its just to declare that the child will be brough up as a christian?

Babies aren't sinners but all babies are born into sin...that is the difference
do you understand what I mean?



But as christians aren't you supposed to guide others into christianity? so wouldnt the parents' jobs as good christian parents help guide their children to the 'truth'.
Yes and born-again Christians do and are supposed to guide others...they are convicted to, by the Holy Spirit which dwells inside of them. But only if you allow it.

but if they have no religion as you say, if they grow up with hypocritical parents who really don't care about Jesus and the church etc etc. and they dont ever have proper guidance even in the generality of religion itself, will the sins of that child brought up as an ignorant adult (of christianity) be forgiven?
What I mean is the Child as he grows up he must decide for himself...it is the parents full responsibity to lead the Child to God and accept Jesus has their Saviour...But even if you do all that...it isn't saying their Child will accept Jesus...they can tell you they have....but if they have again their character will change the oldself dies...

So even after trying all you can to lead your Child to God and accept Jesus..we can do no more besides pray to God and leave everything in his capable hands...I've heard some beautiful testimonies about born again Christians Children, how they rejected Christ..and later on in life (when grown up)...God collars them by the neck..so to speak...lol and they have no choice but to accept. The power is so convicting.

The conviction of the truth is so strong...after this they began to change in character...We cannot change ourselves only the Holy Spirit can do that...no matter how hard we try to be good...it just won't happen.


Because its hard to tell by just looking at a christian if they are practicing or not, so it's not something that is always observable..
Because you aren't a born-again Christian :) ... no offence, born-again Christians are given the gift of discernment.

will it be their fault that they haven't learned these vital religious lessons from the parents that were supposed to help guide them?
In a born-again Christians family that would never happen...Because of your character changing, the childs life would be one of peace and contentment only never aruging and discord.
The Bible tells us if we hear the gospel and reject it...we are rejecting him who could gave his life for us...even believers all the time question Jesus, we must question and test and are told to. Jesus will show us what is truth and what is not, anything we ask him...he will show us..then if we reject it..that is our own fault, who else can we blame then?...I never came from a born again Christian family..yes my mom and sister believes in God and Jesus..but they are not born-again Christians..and I wasn't even a believer up until 2 years ago. :)


and what is the purpose of a christian living if all your sins can easily be forgiven, so then would you be dying free of sin if you were a devout christian??
like I said above...only God knows if you have truely repented or are they just words? It is freedom living a true Christian life, it's a new life. Like Jesus tells us, we are born again...not literally...of course..

Once I accepted Jesus into my life...not just saying "OK i believe in Jesus"..but really accepted him and ask him to come into my life and change me..repent my past sinful life..I will start to become christ-like more and more, if I allow it...Jesus will never push himself...because we are given freewill...
When I asked him I meant it..and he is changing me. So yes I would be dying free of sin...
But people who do not mean it, call themselves Christians but never change they will still be dying and not free from sin.




and in christianity is sin repetitive? for example, if porn was forbidden..and a christian published massive porn magazines, in which other christians will sin by looking at them, it would be a sin for eachtime anyone viewed that magazine both for the publisher and the viewer, so how does one repent to be forgiven and for how long?? is there a limit?
No I can't say I've found it that way at all...for example before I became a born again Christian I used to like going out with my non-Christians friends to pubs clubs...not everynight...but I enjoyed that kind of life..I could see no wrong in it...I wasn't hurting anyone at all...
Now Jesus is in my life...I wouldn't even go to a club..not that I couldn't go..not that I think it would upset God, because that would be fear.....It's because I have no desire at all...for my past life.
Your example you gave me.. a born-again Christian would never publish those kind of magazines..again not because it would upset God...but because it has no part in your life at all not interest. And again a born-again Christian would not be interested in even looking at that kind of magazine..
When a born-again Christian sins...they repent straight away...usually the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin, e.g. could be a mean spiteful word to someone, a thought..The Holy Spirit will bring it to your attention.
Once it is repented for and again God knows if you mean it...and being a born-again Christian you would. else you wouldn't be a born-again Christian..
you are forgiven...and you can tell, it's hard to explain but you will sort of recieve a peace that comes over you...well for me anyways... :)


thanks again!

peace

thank you, you ask some really interesting questions...

God Bless
nic
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-24-2006, 03:55 AM
Salaam,

I guess in short the Christians dont know that babies will go to hell or not

According to their theology all people's who do not accept their saviour will go too hell..

But not babies....

but they now try to explain using other verses to say it is unknown...

So in short..Chrisitan dont know...

trying to grapple with the notion of a baby whom has done nothing,is dead before first breath...whose innocent is cleary in their faces....they cant bear the thought of all those babies in hell being droned in lakes of fire..or what ever chrisitna think hell is...

Go to google and search for world infant deaths statistics..
In Philiphines,30 000 infant deaths,that is just one country,if we can say that for teh whole entire world the number of infant death is roughly 1 million,that is 1 000 000,babies.......all whom are now in hell being burned by hell fire as christian like to say...

Every year 1million,,,so since the "crucifiction" there has been 2 billion(estimate) infant death,does that make your heart warm?



In Islam it is simple,,,,,babies and young children enter heaven for they are sinless...for they know not what they do

Every person is a clean slate...
Their sin is their own
They will not answer for anyone else...
Nor can anyone else answer for them
Number of people who love him/her does not matter
Number of people who hate him/her does not matter
Man judgement does not matter

you will be judged by your own DEEDS...
Reply

glo
04-24-2006, 06:35 AM
Hi Charisma

Since this thread has moved on, I won't go over 'old ground'.

Can I ask how Islam views this?
I am guessing that all children are seen to be born Muslims and remain so unless they choose to stray from the path? Is that right?

glo
Reply

glo
04-24-2006, 06:43 AM
Hi Zulkiflim

I have the feeling your haven't really read this thread. If you had you would know that Christians don't believe that babies go to hell.
Never mind ...

As for your comment that Christians know nothing, I could take that personally ...
I am here to learn about Islam and to ask questions about it. I endeavour not to talk too much about my own faith unless it is helpful for comparison - and I hope that is agreeable with the ethos of this forum.
This, however, is the comparative religions folder, and charisma asked a specific question about my faith, which I attempted to answer as best I could.

I would like to humbly ask to respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
This being an Islamic forum I don't expect many people to
1. share, or
2. understand, or
3. agree with my beliefs,
but I do expect some respect.

Is that asking too much?

Peace

glo
Reply

Nicola
04-24-2006, 08:41 AM
Zulkiflim;272065]Salaam,

I guess in short the Christians dont know that babies will go to hell or not

According to their theology all people's who do not accept their saviour will go too hell..
We do know...
I'm afraid it is you who do not fully understand yet!

sin is inherited it is passed on from our parents. and our parents, parents until we reach to Adam and Eve...
In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner
.

When infants die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.



But not babies....

but they now try to explain using other verses to say it is unknown...

So in short..Chrisitan dont know...

yes again we do know because David tells us so in 2 Samuel 12:21-23

When God told David he would take his child away (in death) because of Davids sins..David wept fasted and prayed to God but once the child had died...look what David now does and says.


2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" They said, "He is dead."
2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.
2Sa 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 2Sa 12:22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
We have complete assurance that babies, infants and Children return to the Lord and one day we will be reunited with them.




trying to grapple with the notion of a baby whom has done nothing,is dead before first breath...whose innocent is cleary in their faces....they cant bear the thought of all those babies in hell being droned in lakes of fire..or what ever chrisitna think hell is...
I think what you confusion is...being born a sinner and born into sin...
is a totally different thing all together, Islam beliefs have totally misunderstood and missed the actual meaning..and cannot see a difference in those two quotes..at all.


Go to google and search for world infant deaths statistics..
In Philiphines,30 000 infant deaths,that is just one country,if we can say that for teh whole entire world the number of infant death is roughly 1 million,that is 1 000 000,babies.......all whom are now in hell being burned by hell fire as christian like to say...
Well above this quote you said Christians want to believe babies are in heaven because we can't bear the thought of them in hell. Now you are saying we believe they are in hell...Which is it?



Every year 1million,,,so since the "crucifiction" there has been 2 billion(estimate) infant death,does that make your heart warm?

and your point is? I know for sure all those infants are with God,

1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' blood was enough to cover the sins of the whole world...that includes everyone who was born after him.

In Islam it is simple,,,,,babies and young children enter heaven for they are sinless...for they know not what they do
and you know that from the Quran? The Bible since the very beginning states exactly Gods position...the fall of mankind concerning sin, blood being used for the atonement of sin all throughout the whole Bible...But now the Quran states very differently, something that God never said before..


Every person is a clean slate...
Their sin is their own
They will not answer for anyone else...
Nor can anyone else answer for them
Number of people who love him/her does not matter
Number of people who hate him/her does not matter
Man judgement does not matter

you will be judged by your own DEEDS...
This position is no different than Gods position in the Bible...
It is because you do not understand the difference between born a sinner and born into sin
Does't the Quran explain the difference? Between the two...or is it you just don't understand it.
Reply

*charisma*
04-24-2006, 10:07 PM
Hey Nicola

Yes, to an extent...only God knows whats in our hearts, people can call themselves Christians, but if they are, they will change literally. It is something supernatural that takes place within yourself..

It is very noticable to people who know them well..If they don't begin to start changing they have not really except Jesus into their lives..
When we accept Jesus we repent from our heart of all our past sins...not just Ok I believe in you Jesus..now my sins are forgiven...and a free pass into heaven. No it doesn't work like that..
God knows if it is geniune or not..someone who isn't they will not change at all...still the same sinful nature..and Jesus tells us on Judgement he will turn away those kinds of people...
The person who is born-again spiritually like Jesus tells us will happen...these are the people who are true Christians...they will become christ-like in their ways...all born-again Christians though different characters will all possess the same qualities..always. This is how I can tell a born-again Christian from a person calling themselves a Christian..It is soooooo totally different.
What are the rulings upon someone who is always changing, meaning one day they would be very religious and other days they aren't, and how does a Christain practice their religion in which is apparent to other people of different faiths or just people individually?

Babies aren't sinners but all babies are born into sin...that is the difference
do you understand what I mean?
to be honest, not really...can you further explain that please?

Yes and born-again Christians do and are supposed to guide others...they are convicted to, by the Holy Spirit which dwells inside of them. But only if you allow it.
ermm..how many times can a christian become a "born-again christian"?

What I mean is the Child as he grows up he must decide for himself...it is the parents full responsibity to lead the Child to God and accept Jesus has their Saviour...But even if you do all that...it isn't saying their Child will accept Jesus...they can tell you they have....but if they have again their character will change the oldself dies...
Yea, but if the parents are not religious in the first place, but do consider themselves as Christian, although they do not enforce the Christian teachings upon their children, when their children are old enough to make their own decisions and they decide to become part of another faith, who would be the one considered sinning? The parents for not teaching their children, or the children for being ignorant of the religion they were supposedly supposed to be brought up into?


So even after trying all you can to lead your Child to God and accept Jesus..we can do no more besides pray to God and leave everything in his capable hands...I've heard some beautiful testimonies about born again Christians Children, how they rejected Christ..and later on in life (when grown up)...God collars them by the neck..so to speak...lol and they have no choice but to accept. The power is so convicting.
agreed.

The conviction of the truth is so strong...after this they began to change in character...We cannot change ourselves only the Holy Spirit can do that...no matter how hard we try to be good...it just won't happen.
Do you mean that no one can change themselves unless it is by the will of the "holy spirit"? i thought you said people can only change if they accept the holy spirit into their lives? or do u still mean that?
also i know some athiests or people of other faiths who are really nice and kind, some even more than those who consider themselves to be religious practicing Christians..I think that if you have something that you believe in very strongly, and you have the determination to change yourself, you will change, and if i were to speak in religious aspects Allah is always there for you to help guide you, but you are always being tested upon how far you are willing to go for Him. So we are putting the change into ourselves because we want to do it for the sake of Allah, and Allah guides those who seek His Guidance...so we do not need the "holy spirit" to keep us striving..it can be as simple as determination, love, etc all for the sake of Allah...

Because you aren't a born-again Christian ... no offence, born-again Christians are given the gift of discernment.
none taken..lol i meant like how do you tell they are religious and stuff while they are out of the church? how is a christian recognizable compared to other christians, I don't mean personality wise, because that i can tell..but i mean physically..through their appearances..


In a born-again Christians family that would never happen...Because of your character changing, the childs life would be one of peace and contentment only never aruging and discord.
The Bible tells us if we hear the gospel and reject it...we are rejecting him who could gave his life for us...even believers all the time question Jesus, we must question and test and are told to. Jesus will show us what is truth and what is not, anything we ask him...he will show us..then if we reject it..that is our own fault, who else can we blame then?...I never came from a born again Christian family..yes my mom and sister believes in God and Jesus..but they are not born-again Christians..and I wasn't even a believer up until 2 years ago.
so born again christians have been forgiven for all their sins, while christians who arent born again havent been forgiven?
like I said above...only God knows if you have truely repented or are they just words? It is freedom living a true Christian life, it's a new life. Like Jesus tells us, we are born again...not literally...of course..

Once I accepted Jesus into my life...not just saying "OK i believe in Jesus"..but really accepted him and ask him to come into my life and change me..repent my past sinful life..I will start to become christ-like more and more, if I allow it...Jesus will never push himself...because we are given freewill...
When I asked him I meant it..and he is changing me. So yes I would be dying free of sin...
But people who do not mean it, call themselves Christians but never change they will still be dying and not free from sin.
What if you died sinning? I mean like lets say you said something bad about a person forgetting you were backbiting cuz as was mentioned before everyone sins cuz we aren't perfect and no matter how hard we try we always do something wrong everyday, would you die with that sin if you didn't have time to repent for it?

Also what are the rulings upon someone who steals if they didn't have food to eat? is that sinning? and what if someone was a terrible person all their life and right before they died, they accepted Jesus into their life and repented for their sinful life the very last minute, but they didn't have time to show that repetence on earth, would they still be forgiven?

No I can't say I've found it that way at all...for example before I became a born again Christian I used to like going out with my non-Christians friends to pubs clubs...not everynight...but I enjoyed that kind of life..I could see no wrong in it...I wasn't hurting anyone at all...
Now Jesus is in my life...I wouldn't even go to a club..not that I couldn't go..not that I think it would upset God, because that would be fear.....It's because I have no desire at all...for my past life.
Your example you gave me.. a born-again Christian would never publish those kind of magazines..again not because it would upset God...but because it has no part in your life at all not interest. And again a born-again Christian would not be interested in even looking at that kind of magazine..
When a born-again Christian sins...they repent straight away...usually the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin, e.g. could be a mean spiteful word to someone, a thought..The Holy Spirit will bring it to your attention.
Once it is repented for and again God knows if you mean it...and being a born-again Christian you would. else you wouldn't be a born-again Christian..
you are forgiven...and you can tell, it's hard to explain but you will sort of recieve a peace that comes over you...well for me anyways...
what if they were a christian, but then became a born-again christian once they realized what they were doing was wrong..?? are they forgiven completely? how does a Christian know that they have sacrificed enough to God that they are completely forgiven? Do they continue to strive to ask for forgiveness for the same sin, or do they forget it and move on hoping they don't do the same mistake twice?

sorry for all the questions, I'm really trying to learn more about Christianity and understand it since much of it confuses me..so thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions despite how weird they are lol..

peace
Reply

*charisma*
04-24-2006, 10:11 PM
Hi glo :D

Since this thread has moved on, I won't go over 'old ground'.

Can I ask how Islam views this?
ofcoarse :D

I am guessing that all children are seen to be born Muslims and remain so unless they choose to stray from the path? Is that right?
yes, all newborns are born sinless and as muslims and they remain muslims until their parents change them..e.g. they get baptized into christianity..but they will remain sinless until the age of puberty i believe, the age where they are old enough to make their own decisions for themselves.

glo
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-25-2006, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi Zulkiflim

I have the feeling your haven't really read this thread. If you had you would know that Christians don't believe that babies go to hell.
Never mind ...

As for your comment that Christians know nothing, I could take that personally ...
I am here to learn about Islam and to ask questions about it. I endeavour not to talk too much about my own faith unless it is helpful for comparison - and I hope that is agreeable with the ethos of this forum.
This, however, is the comparative religions folder, and charisma asked a specific question about my faith, which I attempted to answer as best I could.

I would like to humbly ask to respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
This being an Islamic forum I don't expect many people to
1. share, or
2. understand, or
3. agree with my beliefs,
but I do expect some respect.

Is that asking too much?

Peace

glo

Salaam,

Well when i say Christian dont know...the actual line was Christian dont know if babies will go to heaven or hell..

Not Chrisitan dont know..period ..about anything..LOLOL

I am unsure why you are offended,if you are then you feel it not at my insitgation..
Reply

Zulkiflim
04-25-2006, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola
We do know...
I'm afraid it is you who do not fully understand yet!

sin is inherited it is passed on from our parents. and our parents, parents until we reach to Adam and Eve...
In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, .

When infants die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.






yes again we do know because David tells us so in 2 Samuel 12:21-23

When God told David he would take his child away (in death) because of Davids sins..David wept fasted and prayed to God but once the child had died...look what David now does and says.


We have complete assurance that babies, infants and Children return to the Lord and one day we will be reunited with them.






I think what you confusion is...being born a sinner and born into sin...
is a totally different thing all together, Islam beliefs have totally misunderstood and missed the actual meaning..and cannot see a difference in those two quotes..at all.




Well above this quote you said Christians want to believe babies are in heaven because we can't bear the thought of them in hell. Now you are saying we believe they are in hell...Which is it?






and your point is? I know for sure all those infants are with God,

1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' blood was enough to cover the sins of the whole world...that includes everyone who was born after him.



and you know that from the Quran? The Bible since the very beginning states exactly Gods position...the fall of mankind concerning sin, blood being used for the atonement of sin all throughout the whole Bible...But now the Quran states very differently, something that God never said before..




This position is no different than Gods position in the Bible...
It is because you do not understand the difference between born a sinner and born into sin
Does't the Quran explain the difference? Between the two...or is it you just don't understand it.
Heya

Despite all your word and convictions it is clear you still dont know..

You pasted some OT from David but there are no verses wihin that sya that the baby is in heaven ...just that david will go the baby go to the baby not the baby return to david...that's all...

When i say Chrisitan are confused for their reliogn is supposedly about LOVE and thus cannot comprehend that their "LOVELY" god would send babies to hell.....It is a repugnant thought even to those who say ALL are SINFUL or born into sin...

Thus as in many thing you would create "Explanation's" and "lines" to porve that babies do go to heaven despite the thoguht that all are sinful...

And finally as you say,people who accept willingly Jesus is saved,but abbies that die DO NOT ACCEPT Jesus coherently..thus you create a gulf between the 2 understanding...

And no i dont understand the difference between born in sin and born a sinner..

Can you explain both clearly.....logically..thanks,and you can take any verses in the bible and mix them up to suit your needs...
Reply

nimrod
04-25-2006, 03:19 AM
Hello Charisma (Nice user name btw). You have hit upon an aspect of the Christian faith that may share quite a bit common ground with Islam. I am not sure how much it gets discussed in Islamic circles, but it gets a lot of air time among Christians.

At least one aspect of being “Born in Sin” can be seen in this respect. Before Adam and Eve sinned they weren’t subject to growing old and dieing. They would still be alive today had they not sinned. The forbidden fruit/sin changed their body physically so that it could wear out and quit.

As a side note, one thing you will notice in reading Genesis is that at first God gave a vegetarian diet as lawful. It wasn’t till after Noah’s flood that animals were lawful to eat.
During the time before the flood it seems Adams decedents ate more and more meat. The more meat they ate the shorter their lifespan became. Eating meat involves killing animals, innocent animals. It is kind of ironic that the more man killed innocent beings, the shorter his lifespan became.
A long lifespan went from 900+ years, pre-flood to 120 years post-flood.

The second aspect of sin that we see is, the way Adam and Eve viewed their bodies and also how God views people running around in their birthday suits. Before they sinned Adam and Eve ran around naked and never knew any different. God took no, noticeable, notice of that.
After they sinned they were ashamed of being without clothes and we also see God himself provided covering for them. (As a side note, this is the first recording of killing a living breathing creature recorded in the Bible) God gave them animal skins to replace the plant leaves they had covered themselves with.

Instructions given later in the Bible are very specific in regard to letting private parts show, look at the instructions given to Aaron concerning under garments.

So we see that not only were Adam and Eve and all their off-spring changed physically, but also in regards as to how God viewed them as well as how the descendents viewed themselves.

The eating of the forbidden fruit/sin not only introduced the knowledge of free-will to man’s (Adam) and his descendents, but it also caused changes to his body. Those changes have been handed down generation to generation all the way up to today and the future off spring.

The one certain thing in this life, till the Rapture anyway, is Death. Death didn’t always exist for mankind. It entered by one man and it was defeated by one man.

Death is an important subject to ponder in how God views dead things. Dead things are considered “un-clean” or “un-Holy”. God sees things not only as they are but also as they well be. God sees man as dead, or un-clean, or un-Holy.

That nature of man has been handed down through the ages. Thus babies are born into certain death. They have been born to one day become un-clean, un-Holy things, dead things. Therefore babies are “born in sin”, “Free to chose what God didn’t intend”-Free-Will”.

The question then becomes, what is God’s reaction to the “sin” the babies are born into? We see from scripture that God no longer punishes the children for the father’s sins. We can derive from scripture that God views newborns as innocent. That brings us to what is called “the age of accountability”, the age that we start becoming responsible for our words and deeds.

Different faiths choose slightly different ages of “the age of account ability” but generally it begins when puberty on sets. The Bible is not clear on a given age. I think that is the most correct way to handle it as well, not because I happen to be a Christian but because different people develop at different rates. I have seen grown men that were mentally deficient that hit puberty long time ago, yet they can’t be viewed as responsible, conversely I have seen very young men that seemed wise beyond their years.

There are some children that have become so corrupt, that by the time they hit the “age of accountability” they are already forever lost.

Their names have never been recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

The Bible tells us that ALL will be judged by what we say and do. The fellow living in the jungle will be judged by what he said and did, as well as the priest will being judged by what he said and did.

Each will be judged Justly and Fairly. Living in a jungle will be no excuse, nor will living in a Church or a Mosque be an excuse.

Charisma, today has been a long day, we have divers at the plant this week removing plating on the intake screens. Long hours out in the hot sun, I kind of feel like I have glazed over a lot in this reply and also got side tracked a bit.

Post back about anything you are still wondering about concerning a Christian perspective on your topic and I will try to get back to this.

BTW you have already recieved some very good replies, I enjoyed them myself.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

extinction
04-25-2006, 03:26 AM
This is funny. I learned a lot about christianity in an islamic website.
YEAH same here.??? whats going on..lol
Reply

glo
04-25-2006, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

yes, all newborns are born sinless and as muslims and they remain muslims until their parents change them..
Thanks for the explanation.
So, I'm a Muslim really - I just don't know it??? :hmm:

glo
Reply

glo
04-25-2006, 05:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Well when i say Christian dont know...the actual line was Christian dont know if babies will go to heaven or hell..
And I still say you are not listening! :rollseyes :okay:

I am unsure why you are offended,if you are then you feel it not at my insitgation..
I said I could take it personally, not that I did! :okay:

Peace,
glo
Reply

samobosna96
04-25-2006, 06:11 AM
I really don't know if this has been covered but the Muslims here have to recognize that these Christians believe in an unjust concept of original sin that has no place in Islam. We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple we are not born with any sins, man is born sinless but by nature is prone to sinning. Another unjust concept these Chrisitians bring up is that Jesus paid in full for your sins, which is wrong Islamically. No one can pay for anothers mistakes, i cannot pay for yours and you cannot pay for mine. I will be accountable to my book deeds, the good and the bad. We as Muslims know that Jesus was not crucified but was raised alive by the will of God so please dont get confused, Christian beliefs and Muslim beliefs are not all the same, some are similar but not all, as I am sure you all realize. I just wanted to clarify those two points that man is born sinless but is capable of sinning and Jesus did not pay for anything someone else did, for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.
Reply

glo
04-25-2006, 06:15 AM
That's interesting, Samobosna.

I am beginning to think that there are many similarities between Islam and Christianity - but the differences between the two beliefs are great and seemingly unsurmountable.

Peace,
glo :)
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glo
04-25-2006, 07:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by samobosna96
We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple ...
Me again! :)

Just a minor point perhaps, but perhaps an important one.
To my knowledge Christianity does not teach that we are responsible for Adam's and Eve's mistake. (Do my Christians brothers and sisters agree with me here?)

Rather that until their 'original sin' their was no sin in humans - but since then we all have the potential to commit sin. In fact, we all commit some sins in some way, shape or form.
The only person we believe to have ever lived without committing wrong, was Jesus himself.

for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.
I agree totally that God cannot be unjust.
But I don't understand how we can apply our human standards to judge God's actions?
Can I say 'God, what you just did, is unfair/ unjust'??? Surely not!
It may seem that way to me at the time, because I am applying human thinking, but surely God is always just!

Therefore, God sending His son to die for the salvation of all humanity is also just - even if it does not fit into your way of thinking.

(I am aware that we can quite easily slip into a circular argument here - and I would rather avoid it. It is interesting to hear and understand your beliefs better! :) )

glo
Reply

Nicola
04-25-2006, 09:29 AM
Samobosna two points I'd like to raise with you.

We as people today cannot be held responsible for Adam and Eve's mistake of eating the apple we are not born with any sins, man is born sinless but by nature is prone to sinning
Original sin does not refer to the first sin(eating an apple) but to the result of that first sin.(disobeying God) The Scriptures speak oftern of sin and death entering the world through “one man’s transgression.”

When a baby is born, we know it hasn't commited any sin...but it has been born into sin, because sin entered the world, because of Adams transgression.(sin)
God isn't holding each of us responsible for Adams sin...but...once Adam disobeyed God commandent..sin was unleased for man to be able to commit sin.
I think many, believe Christians think everyone is born a sinner...but we do not!
Before the fall of Adam only good was in the world his sin brought evil into the world. So now we have a choice to choose between good or evil..yet not one person has been born yet, besides Jesus Christ who has not sinned.

Isaiah 59:2 But your sinful acts have alienated you from your God; your sins have caused him to reject you and not listen to your prayers
.


If what you are saying is correct, tell me if what % of people never sin?

and why are humans prone to sinning, when God (who is perfect)made us perfect to begin with because he tells us we are made in his image?



I just wanted to clarify those two points that man is born sinless but is capable of sinning and Jesus did not pay for anything someone else did, for that would be unjust and God cannot be unjust.
Tell me why is it unjust for God to offer himself has a human sacrifice his word (Jesus) for the atonement of our sins?
Do you think God was unjust commanding the Jews to sacrifice unblembished animals for the atonement of their sins? What had the animal done wrong to be slaughtered it was a pure animal...blood is life..all the animals which where used... their blood was pure. These sacrifices to God where on going..
Jesus though, his sacrifice was a one off sacrifice...His blood, brings eternal life...his blood was pure, he was sinless...No other man on earth was or has been since.


One man brought sin into the world and one man takes our sins away.

Romans 4:25 He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made the one who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the right-eousness of God.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.

Mark 10:45
Jesus said, For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

All the Old Testament sacrifices became obsolete upon the death of Christ after Jesus died and rose, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. Since then, no Jew has been able to offer a blood sacrifice to God. God’s law permitted them to sacrifice only in the Temple and nowhere else on earth. (it will begin again though we are told by permission of the final anti-christ for a short time) but thats another topic!

Isa 53:3-12
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
There are many scriptures telling us God was going to bring us a saviour..
The Old Testement tells us God will use a man to pay for our sins..and Jesus being sinless was the only one who could pay that price for all..

He did it willingly with love for each of us..to bring us back into followship with our Holy Father, like it was before Adam brought sin into the world.

Peace
Reply

Nicola
04-25-2006, 11:47 AM
=Zulkiflim;273937]Heya

Despite all your word and convictions it is clear you still dont know..

You pasted some OT from David but there are no verses wihin that sya that the baby is in heaven ...just that david will go the baby go to the baby not the baby return to david...that's all...

When i say Chrisitan are confused for their reliogn is supposedly about LOVE and thus cannot comprehend that their "LOVELY" god would send babies to hell.....It is a repugnant thought even to those who say ALL are SINFUL or born into sin...
Either God hands out mercy to us or God is also Just in his punishment to us ...He can choose either these two things when we are living in our physical bodies...But he can never be unjust,
It isn't possible for God to be..so how can you believe we think innocent babies are sent to hell because they haven't heard or understood about Jesus..That would be unjust on Gods behalf..babies have committed no sin yet!...Though God does know if that baby will be rightous or unrightous in his eyes..

This I belief is where the confusion lies...you think we are calling babies sinners when infact we are not!

What we are saying is all of us are born into a world full of sin (we are born-in sin) ..This was because Adam disobeyed Gods commandment...he set forth the consquences he let sin into the world..sin brought death, illness and evil into the world. A baby has committed no sin...so cannot be charged with sin by God... if God charged a baby with sin that would make God unjust. God does not punish us for other peoples sins...We aren't being punished because Adam sinned...
But it is fact that a baby will begin to sin...because he lives in a corruptable world full of sin..Again because of Adam opening the flood gates available sin.



Thus as in many thing you would create "Explanation's" and "lines" to porve that babies do go to heaven despite the thoguht that all are sinful...
No Christian at all believes God is unjust...and again you are missing the point...
the baby is not sinful but has been born in-sin a sinful world.


And finally as you say,people who accept willingly Jesus is saved,but abbies that die DO NOT ACCEPT Jesus coherently..thus you create a gulf between the 2 understanding...
We believe only adults who willingly accept Jesus into their lives, will have eternal life with the father...So how can a baby accept Jesus, a baby can't even talk or walk...let alone accept Jesus so God would never condemn a baby to hell because a baby cannot understand, neither anyone who didn't ever hear the gospel of Jesus, or mentally hanidcapped people...If God did it would make him unjust.

But remember that God knows everything..everyones heart, he knows how each one of us grow up..what kind of person we will be......do they belong to the Holy father or the father of liars.
Jesus knew when he was on earth and still does...who are his sheep and who belong to Satan because he tells us so.

Remember also the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 describes a meeting between God, two angels, Abraham and Sarah. God had apparently decided to kill all of the men, women, youths, children and newborns in the four cities. Abraham bartered with God, as a Middle-East resident would in a market place. He persuades God to cancel the mass murder if ten righteous people can be found in Sodom.

Ten righteous people where not found...God killed them all in those four cities besides Lots family.
So God knew their hearts, what they would grow up into even those newborns where killed by God because he knew even those would be unrightous..
So I believe this is evidence that God will not act unjustly...Maybe some babies will go to hell for that reason...only God knows.








And no i dont understand the difference between born in sin and born a sinner..
I hope the above will help you understand the difference....or hope this helps the explain the difference and understand how Chrisitans mean we are born in sin...

There was no sin (death) of humans before Adam sinned.
sin=death.

Adam brought sin into the world..he didn't bring sin into each one of us, his sin doesn't carry on living in us to the next generation and so forth...we are not accountable for his sin nor our parents..or anyones but our own... because of Adam he unlesasd sin and it entered into the world....not into us..


So we aren't born sinners, because sin cannot pass from one person to another.....but we are 'born in sin'...we are born into a sinful world. And man cannot stop this sinning...no matter how hard we trt, no matter how good a person he is..he will not stop sinning without Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us....

Only Jesus was born sinless and stayed sinless throughout his whole physcial life..so only he was able to pay the price for our sins...his blood brought life eternal life...for all who belive in him.

Jesus defeated death...he defeated Satan when he died and rose again...Satan thought he had defeated Jesus, he thought he had got rid of him, because he can't work out Gods whole plan for mankind..though he knows somethings he doesn't know everything....

Jesus overcome death so that we could also overcome death...because in our sins we are dead...we are in bondage to sin..Jesus frees us from that bondage, from eternal death and from sin.

All will recieve a physical death... besides the Christians taken up in the rapture at the endtimes...but all the Christians who have ever lived have deafed that second death...that Jesus tells us about..the eternal death.



Can you explain both clearly.....logically..thanks,and you can take any verses in the bible and mix them up to suit your needs...
I don't really need scripture to explain this, but if you would like me to I will show you.
Reply

Alphaseed
04-25-2006, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Greetings,

Something I never really understood in Christianity is the role of the babies. Why are they born sinful? I understand how it goes back to generations of when Adam and Eve sinned passed down to the new generation, but they're babies! Also, If a baby died before being baptized or any of that..do they go to hell??

Peace
No they don't go to Hell, Yeshua said "Let the children Come unto me For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Less you beome as a child you will not see GOd"

Children are innocent until the age of recognition (Puberty)after that they decide whether to accept God's salvation or Hell.
Reply

*charisma*
04-26-2006, 02:06 AM
Hey Glo

Thanks for the explanation.
So, I'm a Muslim really - I just don't know it???
not necessarily..you have been raised as a christian, therefore you are christian..or rather your faith has changed after birth, you werent brought up islamically so therefore you aren't muslim..

Hi Nimrod and thanks for ur reply :D

The one certain thing in this life, till the Rapture anyway, is Death. Death didn’t always exist for mankind. It entered by one man and it was defeated by one man.
who are you referring to here? adam pbuh i suppose?

Death is an important subject to ponder in how God views dead things. Dead things are considered “un-clean” or “un-Holy”. God sees things not only as they are but also as they well be. God sees man as dead, or un-clean, or un-Holy.
but i thought Jesus sacrificed himself to the people's sins...why would he do it if its considered unholy or unclean? and if someone died are they considered to be unclean?

That nature of man has been handed down through the ages. Thus babies are born into certain death. They have been born to one day become un-clean, un-Holy things, dead things. Therefore babies are “born in sin”, “Free to chose what God didn’t intend”-Free-Will”.
I'm sorry if this is annoying u guys cuz i keep asking..but i just dont understand this at all!! its soo confusing.. how are babies dead?? or born into death lol

The question then becomes, what is God’s reaction to the “sin” the babies are born into? We see from scripture that God no longer punishes the children for the father’s sins. We can derive from scripture that God views newborns as innocent. That brings us to what is called “the age of accountability”, the age that we start becoming responsible for our words and deeds.
You said that they are "no longer" punished for their sins..meaning they once used to be punished for their sins?

Different faiths choose slightly different ages of “the age of account ability” but generally it begins when puberty on sets.
right, i understand this...

The Bible is not clear on a given age. I think that is the most correct way to handle it as well, not because I happen to be a Christian but because different people develop at different rates. I have seen grown men that were mentally deficient that hit puberty long time ago, yet they can’t be viewed as responsible, conversely I have seen very young men that seemed wise beyond their years.
Yes that is true, and I believe in Islam those who are permanently mentally deficient arent accounted for their sins all their life and are guaranteed paradise, so then wouldnt and shouldnt the "age of accountability" be puberty? excluding mental deficiency factors...and despite someone being responsible because EVERYONE who is healthy has the ability to be responsible or learn it..

There are some children that have become so corrupt, that by the time they hit the “age of accountability” they are already forever lost.
well when they do reach the "age of accountibility" they arent sinning i guess because they havent even had a chance to properly learn whats right or wrong..therefore they are sinning..right?

Their names have never been recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
whats that?

The Bible tells us that ALL will be judged by what we say and do. The fellow living in the jungle will be judged by what he said and did, as well as the priest will being judged by what he said and did.

Each will be judged Justly and Fairly. Living in a jungle will be no excuse, nor will living in a Church or a Mosque be an excuse.
by judged what do you mean? are there different levels of hell and paradise? or how does that work?

Charisma, today has been a long day, we have divers at the plant this week removing plating on the intake screens. Long hours out in the hot sun, I kind of feel like I have glazed over a lot in this reply and also got side tracked a bit.

Post back about anything you are still wondering about concerning a Christian perspective on your topic and I will try to get back to this.

BTW you have already recieved some very good replies, I enjoyed them myself.
lol ah thank you for ur reply :D and in helping me understand this religion more..thanks everyone!


peace
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Nicola
04-26-2006, 07:03 AM
Just a minor point perhaps, but perhaps an important one.
To my knowledge Christianity does not teach that we are responsible for Adam's and Eve's mistake. (Do my Christians brothers and sisters agree with me here?)

Yes I believe all Christians know this fact...I would like to know, how this misconception was born!
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