Being Gay

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl: hate the action.

[Muezzin]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

I actually found out quite recently that one of my non-Muslim acquantainces is gay. I was more shocked than anything. We haven't talked in ages anyway, so I really don't know how I feel towards him now.

[Uthman]

:sl:

It's the act of being gay that one should dislike and not the person, I think. A friend of mine once said that hate is a dark and destructive emotion which can be difficult to overcome.

I think I would pity the person, more than anything. And perhaps pray a little, for his/her guidance.

Now I'm not an expert on gays but apparently people aren't gay by choice. They just are gay. It's a condition. Myth or fact? I couldn't know, but it certainly makes sense. That's why I don't like people making fun of them because they're the people who need help the most and there people are just pointing and laughing.

Also, apparently very, very, very few people are 100% straight which scares the living daylights out of me but alas.

:w:

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[Bittersteel]

I think you should treat him nicely like a human even though he's doing an inhumane act.

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

Inhumane? Is being gay really inhumane?

[S_87]

:sl:

id probably cut relations.
and be very disgusted specially if the person had come out.

would i hate them? if they were openly gay then probably yeh

[Bittersteel]

Is being gay really inhumane?

kinda.Do you it humane to be a man and have a man as a life partner or a spouse?

[minaz]

Well I know 4 Lesbians all non-muslims (known all for good 7 years or so) and 2 of them go out with each other for over 1.5 years. I went to school with them since I was a kyd, they were in my classes and we'd mingle like usual. But they all came "out" within last 2 years, at first i was like shocked and thought it's a phases but they are all still going on "strong". One of them is really secretive about it, another every open whilst the 2 who are a couple express their love like any other hetro relationship. Anywho back to the point, I didn't treat them any different than before still worked together and chatted etc, the couple have really opened my eyes about homosexuality and i treat them like any other non-muslims. My view on Homos is that it's just another western influenced society way of life, I just have to accept that it's here in my country along with other un-islamic going-ons. However I wouldn't know how i'd react to a male coming out gay????

[aamirsaab]

Their is a simple psychological explanation for why people turn gay. They are unable to interact as much as they would like with members of their own sex and so "try" to be someone else (i.e fom opposite sex) in order to fit in. Thus, although their appearance isn't changed, their thought process is and so they act like members of opposite sex.

One should not hate them because of this, rather, as Osman rightly said previously, we should pity them for being in that situation. Being gay is not a bioligical change. It is a psychological change. In even simpler terms: It is not so much as a physical change as much as it is a mental change.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

It is a psychological change.

I agree with this position.

:w:

[minaz]

Yes this is evident in the innate behaviour of animals, not only that they are all hetros but also in their roles i.e. female stay at "home" to look after the offspring etc.

[Brother_Mujahid]

i.e. female stay at "home" to look after the offspring etc.

yes but the penguins you see the males look after the eggs while mummy penguin goes and hunts for fish, interesting dontcha think

i think its interesting that over the years how all this homosexuality has been 'accepted' into society. The doctors 50 years ago would say that it is a mental pyscological condition. But now with the continuing change of laws they are given rights etc.

isnt it funny that they won't be recongnised as being married even if they did try to in most countries.

hmmm now the question about if you found someone to be gay, well i think i'd send em straight to Muezzin for a nazi backhander thata make em straight.

[Amatullah_]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

Assalaamu alaykum

I wont hate them, but I would stay away from them. I can't find myself being comfortable around someone like that.

This act isn't normal (obviously) and it is such a huge sin that the people during the time of Loot AS were severly punished by Allah SWT due to this very same sin.

Ok, I got a question...

If you see a gay man in the female bathroom or vice versa a lesbian lady in the males bathroom....what would you do? :confused:

This has happened. :confused:

[mary]

yes but the penguins you see the males look after the eggs while mummy penguin goes and hunts for fish, interesting dontcha think

Haha, lol sooo random but u know i watched this whole program on this topic, (abt penguin fathers being gud dads while mum goes out to find food, it was very sweet) by Harun Yahya on Islam Channel! :)

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

You know, I got asked by someone if you find out your friend is suffering from a nasty cancer which society hates and doesn't like, would you don't cut off all ties with them? Of course not most would say.

I was told look at the sinful as the ill, if you leave them alone, they'll just become more ill and eventualy die. But, if we act as nurses, and aid them, over time they will heal.

It's sad to see brothers and sisters who would cut off ties at an instant.

[Amatullah_]

Asalamu Alaikum

You know, I got asked by someone if you find out your friend is suffering from a nasty cancer which society hates and doesn't like, would you don't cut off all ties with them? Of course not most would say.

I was told look at the sinful as the ill, if you leave them alone, they'll just become more ill and eventualy die. But, if we act as nurses, and aid them, over time they will heal.

It's sad to see brothers and sisters who would cut off ties at an instant.

Wa Alaykumus salaam

I've attended an all girls school for 3yrs. Some of my classmates I really had to be aware of b/cus they acted sorta "funny" around other girls...even me. :confused: I eventually found out they were not as you call it "straight." Or they were, but loved to fool around in that disgusting way. So I kept my distance.

How can you keep friends with the same gender knowing that she may have some sorta "funny"/"not staright" feelings for you????? :confused:


Austagfirullah...yukkkk

I would love to help them, but how???? :confused:

[root]

Great posts,

Homosexuals should be treated within the UK no differently than the British respect Muslims and other religions.

Two adults may choose to live their freedom by mutual consent......

Anti Islam - Islamaphobia
Anti Gay - Homophobia

It's the society that YOU live in if you live in the UK. Accept it before your children luagh at you for being an Homophobic...............

Would we call you "Brainwashed" and thus pyscologically damaged, maybe we can "heal" a Muslim like some imply here. Get over it, please. It's part of multi-culturism. Anything else is double standards

Peace

Root

[Khattab]

:sl: Like has been said I wouldnt hate the person but the act that they indulge in. Having a relationship with the same sex is not that people are born with it, but a psychological issue, where the mind has been corrupted, the same way a paedophile abuses children, they are not born with it as some claim but an issue in there mind.

As for what root said I agree, it something we have to accept here in the west as they are not islamic countries.

:w:

[Ummu Amatullah]

asallama alaikum brothers and sisters about a week ago at the UFM.I had a mere argument with a homosexual arab(homosexual arab very rare to find)which claims to be muslim.Somewhere in our little debate he said, "It's not my fault; I was created as a homo." I told him about the people of our dear prophet lut.Seems that wasn't enough to change his little sick, twisted, and not to mention distorted brain.Do you have any thing to say about this indivisual or any thing related to homosexuality?

[Ummu Amatullah]

Ick i have no idea how in the world a man could have sexual feelings for a man oh god what has the world come to. Visit California everywhere you turn your head you'll see women and men practicing illegal sexual activities with the same gender.That trip totally taught me one thing which is never in your life step foot in Cali.Till this day those images literally like hunt me.Aughhhh!!!As for having a friend that is gay well still talk to them and yet I'm scared for you because I heard many times that who your friends are is who you are.

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

Hehe, because he is gay, which you find disgusting, he has a brain which is little, sick, twisted, and not to mention distorted. Subhan Allah. Such judgment.

Anyway, the best you can do is make dua for him. Why? Well first up, you shouldn't be talking to non mahram males anyway. No need to go further.

No harm intented by my post.

[Muezzin]

Good point.

Here's another: wouldn't it be great if this thread was merged with the other one linked to in the posts above? :)

[Muhammad]

it something we have to accept here in the west as they are not islamic countries.

:sl:
We have the right to detest such an act, since there is freedom of speech after all. And if not to western people, we can at least try our best to shun it from Muslim societies living in the west.

Would we call you "Brainwashed" and thus pyscologically damaged, maybe we can "heal" a Muslim like some imply here. Get over it, please. It's part of multi-culturism. Anything else is double standards

Homosexuality is not a culture but more like a disease in my opinion, and it cannot be compared to religion which is not something that is healed as such. We do accept multi-cultures in the west, but we are entitled to our opinions and you are entitled to yours.

[root]

Homosexuality is not a culture but more like a disease in my opinion, and it cannot be compared to religion which is not something that is healed as such. We do accept multi-cultures in the west, but we are entitled to our opinions and you are entitled to yours.

Muslims are uneducated twerps --- sick in the head and need treatment ........

Think about before you label me islamapobic, are you homophobic!

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: YOU COULD HAVE MADE YOUR POINT WITHOUT THE FOUL LANGUAGE AND INSULTS. WATCH YOUR WORDS.

[Muezzin]

Freedom of speech is fine and dandy. It's when that speech leads to action that it becomes problematic.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

The way I see it, it is irrelevant whether people are born gay or become gay due to their experience.

Consider the first case. If they are indeed born gay, then from an Islamic perspective it makes no difference because people are born with problems and illnesses all the time but they have to live with it and be patient. If you say that these people are born with such a desire, well other people are born with the desire to commit zina, that doesn't mean they do it.

And if it is a psychological condition acquired then it is something that a person needs to be helped with and treated so that they can recover. And society needs to ensure that it removes factors that will have such a negative influence on people.

Either way, it makes no difference from an Islamic perspective.

Root has tried to compare Islam with Homosexuality, but its quite obvious that Homosexuality is not a system of beliefs and laws which describe the universe and guide one in their lives. Rather, it is a twisted desire to sin, just like any other desire to sin. Kleptomania is the same thing.

:w:

[Sheikh Haroon]

Salaam All.

An interesting thread, i must say. Osman, I remember your posts in UI when you had just started about a year ago. Man, have you grown.

I would echo what some people have said here, Islam does not hate anything, except the unnatural and the illness. Islam is not scared of gays (root:) ) neither does it hate gays (root:) ). Islam comes clearly with the message that is most inclined with nature. Psychologists today have proven that a dumb murderer is most likely to be violent due to psychological problems in his youth. Would you call those hating his crimes, as being worthy of this statement of yours:

"uneducated twerps --- sick in the head and need treatment ........"

...? Would you? It is the root cause wherein lies the problem. We are all aware, from the very consciousness of the soul, that this act is indeed one which violates the laws of nature. Besides that it is unclean, impure, and unfortunately produces nothing good, except, as scientists point out, a damaged sphincter muscle in the anus, and a problem whilst relieving oneself. Obviously, herein lies the real place which needs treatment, as opposed to the sick minds of the Muslims:).

I would be glad to discuss the issue with you, if you so desire. Let us leave aside such trivial, almost childish profanities, and discuss the issue with the educated, well thought out perspective it requests of us.

As a note to all Muslims, just remember this. Everyone has some sort of a problem, or an illness, or a weakness. Whether that be a problem in the arm, the left testicle, or the brain, it doesnt matter, we all have some sort of a problem (alhamdulillah, for Allah sends mercy with affliction). No one hates a disabled person in a chair, but they feel sorry for the person, and rush to try and aid him/her. No one hates an insane person, but they feel sorry for him, trying to calm him, trying to soothe his exploded mind. So why is it, that we feel hatred to those who have this serious illness (for it is an affliction, not a choice)? Why is it that we dont rush to their aid, and support them to a straighter path? Islam is universal is it not? Does Allah not want them to submit?

My dear friends, for the sake of Allah, we must help all who come in our grasp. It will be only the wise who will dispose of profanities, vulgarities and obscenities and reach out, with the hand of salvation, to the ill people of this world. My du'as are with the people with this terrible illness.

P.S. Did you know that it is a mental disorder to be a 100% straight? Most people have the teensiest attraction to the same sex. Something to crunch on, before you point fingers.

Warm Regards

[aamirsaab]

BAMB, Straight Up Gold.

[Henry]

I have some gay friends, and when they openly told me I actually gained more respect for them. For someone to say that kind of thing, it could risk their friendship. I am straight, but I respected that he thought that our friendship was strong enough to say he was bisexual. I don't care if I hang around gay guys, and I really have nothing wrong with them.

I don't really see why it is a sin, but I should worry not. Allah (swt) has ever more mercy than us :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl: Br. Henry,
Nice to see you again. :)
I understand that you are not sure about this issue because you are a new Muslim. Indeed, being gay has terrible consequences from both a medical and an Islamic viewpoint. I don't have time now, but insha'Allah I will later post more info.

:w:

[root]

being gay has terrible consequences from both a medical and an Islamic viewpoint. I don't have time now, but insha'Allah I will later post more info.

I can't wait ;-)

[Ummu Amatullah]

brother if you don't have something positive to say i suggest for you to keep quite like our beloved prophet said For brother genius i rarely doubt you're a genius.

asallama alaikum brother Muezzin are you genius's slave or something.Are you allowed to disagree with him or does he whip you with a lash whip..whip.
sorry merely joking

asallama alaikum brother old timer LI member in case you haven't noticed this sister attends an american university which includes talking, debating, and etc..with non mahram men.This sister was on the con side of the debate and she had to explain why homosexuality was wrong. I know because i was present at the debate.
asallama alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.

[Sheikh Haroon]

Peace Root.

I can't wait ;-)

I trust you read what i had to say on the matter? Are you hear to listen to uneducated children, or to learn the truth about what the religion says? Stop the snidy comments. Your questions have been answered, one at a time in various places. If you dont want to learn the truth behind the stereotypes, then haven't you got anything better to do? Seeing as how you are here, and you seem to have more than the average Joe's amount of intelligence, I think you should consider what Islam is, and not what Muslims make Islam out to be.

Regards

[Henry]

Woa woa, guys, lets stop the rash arguements :) Some things are considered a sin in Islam mostly because it is harmfull to you (I quit eating pork since I converted, mind you ;) ). For example, you can't hurt anyone with pork and you are not disrespectful to them when eating it, but it is a sin because people back then simply did not understand why it was harmfull to you. Therefore, to let them understand, it was simply called a sin (and which, of course, I am gratefull for ). Possibly, it is it the same with homosexuality. Much more gays contract AIDS/HIV than straights.

That is my two cents :) Also, glad someone remembered me :) I have finally memorized prayer and I am praying five times a day! I finally feal like a true Muslim

[Khattab]

:sl: Brother Henry nice to see you back, Alhamdulillah thats good to hear, if you are not doing this at the moment try and learn the meanings to the surahs it will help you concentrate better if you know it in english too though nothing can compare to the arabic. Also how are you going with learning the 99 names of Allah (SWT)?

:w:

[Henry]

Sorry for kind of derailing this topic, but I figured that I definately needed to learn to pray before I should learn anything else. Actually, I finally got everything memorised yesterday. I don't remember much of the fifty or so that I remembered, but hearing the names in prayer or daily discussions and remembering what they mean is truely awesome :D

[lyv4islam]

asallama alaikum brother genius i'm sorry for my friends disrespect, by the way about the homosexuality thing i posted it to get advice and "Mind your own business" is kind an advice so i guess in a way i should thank you jazakallah

OK brother in our religion there aint no such thing as gays ok its haram kawmul lut(as) the prophet lut are u familiar with that if not plz read the story i advise you :thumbs_up

[Sheikh Haroon]

Salaam lyvislam.

Welcome to the LI forum.

I would advise you to read my last post on the topic, which can be found here.

Enjoy your stay.

Regards

[YamahaR1]

My view on Homos is that it's just another western influenced society way of life, I just have to accept that it's here in my country along with other un-islamic going-ons.

Well, I'm western. I know people who are gay. And, here's the funny thing, I'm not. They have not affected my religious beliefs. They do not harm me in any way. You can blame homosexuality on western society but I think that is quite far fetched. You must remember than many in western society are christian and christianity also does not welcome homosexuality.

As for me, well, I do not feel that I am one to judge anyone. I leave judging to God. Personally, I do not think a true homosexual chooses their life. After all, why would you choose a lifestyle that is shunned and found repulsive by many? Not exactly a choice I would want. I do have issue with bisexuals because then, I think they are making choices since either gender satisfies them.

Either way, regardless of lifestyle, I do not think it is my right to force my religious beliefs on anyone else nor is it their right to force their beliefs on me. Therefore, I think homosexuals should receive rights afforded to all humans legally speaking. Their choices in life do not impact me or my family one iota.

Just curious though....do muslims view gay women and gay men in the same light? I guess what I'm asking is if homosexuality in general is not acceptable or is there a different view based on whether its two men or two women?

[minaz]

Well, I'm western. I know people who are gay. And, here's the funny thing, I'm not

For your information I didn't say all non western muslims are gay

My view on Homos is that it's just another western influenced society way of life

[YamahaR1]

For your information I didn't say all non western muslims are gay

Yes, and my point is that I think it is unfair to state that homosexuality is caused by western influence. I know it is easy to blame all negative things in this world on western people/influence but I respectfully disagree.

[minaz]

Well Homosexuality is highest in the West and more importantly other than statistics, it's kinda considered 'normal'. I mean they're are gay bars, clubs etc and one can portray it more easily compared to non western countries, where it's considered an "illness".

[YamahaR1]

Well Homosexuality is highest in the West and more importantly other than statistics, it's kinda considered 'normal'. I mean they're are gay bars, clubs etc and one can portray it more easily compared to non western countries, where it's considered an "illness".

Well it depends on who you talk to. Did you ever think that homosexuals exist in muslim nations but maybe they don't out themselves for fear of persecution? I don't know....just guessing. In some areas of our country, it wouldn't be wise to tout that you are a homosexual either. There are some who just aren't tolerant of it.....certainly not welcoming of it. So, I wouldn't say we consider it "normal," we have just realized that freedom is not limited to just heterosexuals.

Actually, for those who are deeply religious and speak out against homosexuality in the US, you would not believe the backlash that they get from the liberal political community. The deeply religious are called zealots, intolerant, close minded.......the list goes on. In some ways, many who are deeply religious feel that are discriminated against simply because they won't bend their beliefs to accept the homosexual lifestyle as "normal."

And, keep in mind, the vast majority of the US are still christians. And, christianity does not believe that homosexuality is morally right either.

[minaz]

lol so in conclusion to this thread both Islam and Christianity dislike homosexuality, do we have any jews or others here?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

I'm rushed for time, so with regard to what I promised to post, I'll provide links to two article which have all the information needed:
http://islamonline.net/english/Conte...icle01-3.shtml

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...FatwaID=100855

As for me, well, I do not feel that I am one to judge anyone. I leave judging to God.

And God has judged. Homosexuality is condemned in every major religion.

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

Personally, I do not think a true homosexual chooses their life. After all, why would you choose a lifestyle that is shunned and found repulsive by many?

Whether they choose it or not is irrelevant. If, for the sake of argument, we agree that they are born with that trait, then that is comparable to those who are born with other physical illnesses, but they must be patient. They cannot succumb to their desires like an animal.

Just curious though....do muslims view gay women and gay men in the same light? I guess what I'm asking is if homosexuality in general is not acceptable or is there a different view based on whether its two men or two women?

No difference.

About Judaism one can read the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Judaism

:w:

[root]

I'm rushed for time, so with regard to what I promised to post, I'll provide links to two article which have all the information needed:

http://islamonline.net/english/Cont...ticle01-3.shtml

OK, your above link uses an hypothosis from a study dated 1996, which uses references from studies dated 1959,1962,1978,1903,1996. That hypothosis btw has now been floored, so posting an out of date hypothosis is about as much support that homophobic groups can muster.

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/en...hFatwaID=100855

This link is the main supporting arguement and is scripture based.

1. Lack of Islamic education.

2. Bad friends who have no spiritual or social quaity.

3. Lack of sex education in how to satisfy inate sexual desires as instructed by the almighty.

4. Carelesness in granting too much freedom.

5. Lack of monitoring children.

6. The lack of true understanding and explanation of the physical and psychological dangers and hazards of adultery, fornication, and sexual perversion in this world and the great punishment of the Hereafter.

Now, your link goes on to give us it's "Wisdom"

First, such acts lead to the spread of passivity among the young generation and destroy their morality, since they cannot practice such perversion except after taking some drugs to create for themselves a virtual atmosphere where they feel fake joy. Sufficient unto any person to feel that his manhood is lost.

Clearly, this is "off the cuff" wisdom and has no proven evidence. And many have looked in this area too and also came up empty handed.

Second, it destroys the lives of women whose husbands leave them in pursuit of this perversion and they, in turn, try to find a way to satisfy their sexual needs. In such case, the whole society will be no more than chaos.

Clearly, since the west is not homophobic & not in a state of "Chaos" from homosexuality. Such wisdom is highly suspicious.

Third, it is a fierce attack on progeny and pregnancy, which increases the human race.

It has no impact within the west where Homosexuality is accepted and clearly irrelevent since "birth control" or the lack of it and visa versa has a greater implication than homosexuality

Fourth, the dangerous diseases that are caused by it are unavoidable and fatal. Topping these illnesses is HIV/AIDS.

Great wisdom, totally homophobic remark. Totally ignores the known "evolutionary" facts of the spread of Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

[Genius]

I once saw this programme where it said the most homophobic people are actualy repressed homosexuals themselves, i think that is common knowledge by now.

[root]

I once saw this programme where it said the most homophobic people are actualy repressed homosexuals themselves, i think that is common knowledge by now.

hhhmmmm, has a very firmiliar ring to it. I think I saw that programme too, was it the same programme that said at the end of every religous book is a warning of the very nasty things that will happen to them if they do not beleive what the book says..........

Incidently, I am often accused of being homophobic in a discussion group and my local pub. Compared to Islam's view on Homosexuality I am actually an extreme moderate on the matter!

[Genius]

hhhmmmm, has a very firmiliar ring to it. I think I saw that programme too, was it the same programme that said at the end of every religous book is a warning of the very nasty things that will happen to them if they do not beleive what the book says..........

Usually sarcasm is used to illustrate a point.....................

[Muhammad]

was it the same programme that said at the end of every religous book is a warning of the very nasty things that will happen to them if they do not beleive what the book says..........

Well the Qur'an does not end with that... rather it ends with Words to protect oneself from evil.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

OK, your above link uses an hypothosis from a study dated 1996, which uses references from studies dated 1959,1962,1978,1903,1996. That hypothosis btw has now been floored, so posting an out of date hypothosis is about as much support that homophobic groups can muster.

You can call it outdated and "floored" all you like. It doesn't prove anything. From your posts, one would think it against atheist ideology to support one's claims.

Clearly, since the west is not homophobic & not in a state of "Chaos" from homosexuality.

I beg to differ. Living in the west we can see that chaos is certainly on the rise, imoorality has become abundant in all forms of media. All researches confirm that the west is being desensitized to violence and immorality through the media, especially movies and television.

It has no impact within the west where Homosexuality is accepted and clearly irrelevent since "birth control" or the lack of it and visa versa has a greater implication than homosexuality

The greater impact of other issues does not negate this impact.

Great wisdom, totally homophobic remark. Totally ignores the known "evolutionary" facts of the spread of Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

All medical consequences are discussed in articles on the following site:
http://www.narth.com/docs/consequences.html

Peace.

[root]

(All Quotes by Ansar Al 'Adl)

You can call it outdated and "floored" all you like. It doesn't prove anything. From your posts, one would think it against atheist ideology to support one's claims.

Actually it proves that it is a load of rubbish!

I beg to differ. Living in the west we can see that chaos is certainly on the rise, imoorality has become abundant in all forms of media. All researches confirm that the west is being desensitized to violence and immorality through the media, especially movies and television.

"We", you are talking as if "You" represent a group. However the rest of your comment is your own personal thoughts on the matter. However, I realise it is difficult for some to come to terms with. The UK is not in Chaos due to homosexuality at all.

The greater impact of other issues does not negate this impact.

It's impact is minimal, and has no conaequence

All medical consequences are discussed in articles on the following site:
http://www.narth.com/docs/consequences.html

It seems you don't care what wild accustaions are made as long as they support your stance. I quote in Italics from your link:

As far as I know, there is no other group of people in the United States that dies of infectious diseases in their mid-forties except practicing homosexuals.

This is a shocking lie.

We are debating gay activists who want to add "sexual discrimination" to our anti-discrimination code.

That explains it. And she failed, it has been ammended and homosexuals are protected under anti-discrimination codes.

irrefutable evidence that there are lethal consequences of engaging in the defining features of male homosexuality--that is, promiscuity and anal intercourse.

Many hetro-sexual couples engage in anal sex also.

"A lifetime of anal sex does not do great things for the body."

Nor does a life-time of breathing! Sunbathing and smoking.

Can anyone refute that anal intercourse tears the rectal lining of the receptive partner, regardless of whether a condom is worn, and the subsequent contact with fecal matter leads to a host of diseases?

Diseases to which active homosexuals are vulnerable can be classified as follows:

Classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, ["gay bowel disease"], Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (related to and/or resulting in fecal incontinence, hemorroids, anal fissure, foreign bodies lodged in the rectum, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS).

No, can anyone refute only homosexuals engage in anal sex.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Actually it proves that it is a load of rubbish!

lol, the proof that the argument is rubbish is because you claim its outdated without demonstrating how?

Your posts are filled with claims and denial without any evidence to back anything up.

"We", you are talking as if "You" represent a group. However the rest of your comment is your own personal thoughts on the matter. However, I realise it is difficult for some to come to terms with. The UK is not in Chaos due to homosexuality at all.

Simple denial, not worth my responding to.

It's impact is minimal, and has no conaequence

Denial.

It seems you don't care what wild accustaions are made as long as they support your stance. I quote in Italics from your link:

As far as I know, there is no other group of people in the United States that dies of infectious diseases in their mid-forties except practicing homosexuals.

This is a shocking lie.

Denial.

We are debating gay activists who want to add "sexual discrimination" to our anti-discrimination code.
That explains it. And she failed, it has been ammended and homosexuals are protected under anti-discrimination codes.

So?

Many hetro-sexual couples engage in anal sex also.

No one is debating that, either way its impermissable in Islam and has severe medical consequences. But it is the ONLY method for gays!

No, can anyone refute only homosexuals engage in anal sex.

I don't say "Only homosexuals engage in anal sex."

I say, "homosexuals only engage in anal sex."!!

Peace.

[root]

lol, the proof that the argument is rubbish is because you claim its outdated without demonstrating how?

Ansar,

Look at what I said right at the beginning:

OK, your above link uses an hypothosis from a study dated 1996, which uses references from studies dated 1959,1962,1978,1903,1996. That hypothosis btw has now been floored, so posting an out of date hypothosis is about as much support that homophobic groups can muster.

You do understand what an Hypothosis is! If only you would readily accept evolutionary hypothosis as quickly as you accept this Hypothosis. You insist when debating with me on evolution for actual theory, yet you are so quick to use an hypothosis yourself.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I don't say "Only homosexuals engage in anal sex."

I say, "homosexuals only engage in anal sex."!!

Peace.

You indirectly did, for the link you gave was noted as to the dangers of homosexuality with anal sex, yet she completely failed to mention that hetrosexual's too (a percentage of) engage in anal sex.............

Think I will let this one go, however, it has been worthwhile to understand mainstream muslim thoughts on homosexuality.......


Regards

Root

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi root,
My point was you didn't show how the hypothesis was refuted. And I'd like it if you answered the following point:

I don't say "Only homosexuals engage in anal sex."

I say, "homosexuals only engage in anal sex."!!

Peace.

[scared one]

once my and my best friend(a muslim like me) went to a store to get snacks, then we saw two gay guyz, they were acting gay. i couldnt stand that so me and him got out of the store as quickly as possible. anyway i dont like gay people, their actions and who they are as a person, they are a big embrassement to society if you ask me, and they make society look a like a total joke. but i think they all still deserve their rights, cause their humans like us, if the muslim prayers for small stuff like getting a bus to come wonder if they can work to eliminate the homosexualityness in a human. but heck neitherless if someone is gay, thats their personal life or should i say business unless they decide to be open about it which i doubt. i once saw on the news, how a gay young adult got beat up by some bias guyz, felt sorry for the guy he didnt look gay, but he sure was.
i wish allah can eliminate the homosexuality in a human being.

[anis_z24]

salam

The topic of homosexuality is indeed serious. As it mentioned in the Quran. When the people of the prophet Lut(pbuh) did not obey Allah and his prophet then they were punished severely. We know as Muslims that it is against the will of Allah to be homosexual so how can one feel sorry for a type of wrong going person. Being careful is a vital factor since the west claims it is has the best system, except what its doing is destroying the nature of humans.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You indirectly did, for the link you gave was noted as to the dangers of homosexuality with anal sex, yet she completely failed to mention that hetrosexual's too (a percentage of) engage in anal sex.............

Just to clear up the matter.....

Againb Root, you're not understanding the issue. The reason why anal sex is a proof of the harmful consequences of homosexuality is not because anal sex is only practiced by gays, but because gays only practice anal sex!

And as Br. akhee has pointed out, either way it is forbidden in Islam, therefore it serves as both medical and Islamic evidence against homosexuality.

[sonz]

salam

if your child was gay, what would you do??? if they couldnt resist their feelings and already had a relationship with another samesex partner, what would you do???

if they still said that they believe in allah azwajjal even tho homosexuality is a major sin in islam. would you still accept them and love them as you used to love them???

salam

[root]

Againb Root, you're not understanding the issue. The reason why anal sex is a proof of the harmful consequences of homosexuality is not because anal sex is only practiced by gays, but because gays only practice anal sex!

And as Br. Aqib has pointed out, either way it is forbidden in Islam, therefore it serves as both medical and Islamic evidence against homosexuality.

I accept that anal sex can be a risky business and I am not here to support it nor defend it since I to do not practice it. Homosexuality, and it's acceptance is the issue here. We cannot just state that because homosexuality involves anal sex albeit because homosexuality only practice anal sex.

An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.

[Muezzin]

An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.

Come on Root, now you're just being argumentative :p The Islamic standpoint is 'hate the action, not the person'. I mean, I hate the act of smoking, but that doesn't mean I go out and beat smokers to within an inch of their life. Similarly, I don't discriminate them (though I might ask them to put out their cigarette when they're in my house), so in that sense I accept them.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Threads merged.

if your child was gay, what would you do??? if they couldnt resist their feelings and already had a relationship with another samesex partner, what would you do???

First of all, there is an assumption made in this question. That assumption is that homosexuality is a genetic trait, something people are born with. This is only one position in the scientific community as researchers believe that physical environment has a tremendous impact as well. The born-gay theory is discussed in great detail in articles linked here:
http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

Secondly, the question presupposes poor parenting on the part of the parents who are unaware of the child's situation until they are already into such a "relationship".

But for the sake of argument, were someone in this position, they should take the necessary steps to educate their child about their illness, like many other children who are born with illnesses, born blind, born deaf, etc. Then one can teach their child how to cope with this illness islamically and how to restrain it.

if they still said that they believe in allah azwajjal even tho homosexuality is a major sin in islam. would you still accept them and love them as you used to love them???

The child should know that it is a sin in Islam, and the parents should make dua to Allah swt to help their child. Of course, the parents should love their child.

Greetings Root,

I accept that anal sex can be a risky business and I am not here to support it nor defend it since I to do not practice it. Homosexuality, and it's acceptance is the issue here. We cannot just state that because homosexuality involves anal sex albeit because homosexuality only practice anal sex.

My original statement was that there were severe medical and islamic consequences to homosexuality. You challenged me to substantiate my claim (the medical aspect I assumed), therefore I proved my claim based on the fact that homosexuality involves anal sex, a very dangerous practice with severe medical consequences. Therefore, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences was 100% true. Your only counter-argument was that anal sex is not practiced only by homosexuals. Of course that's beside the point. I don't care about the harmful consequences of other types of illnesses, I was only dealing with homosexuality.

The fallacy of your argument is akin to the following argument:

if I were arguing that car A is a poor and terrible vehicle, then you respond for proof of car A's low quality. I respond by pointing out its motor problems. You counter by saying that car B also has those problems!

What difference does it make if car B has the same problems?! If car A has the problems then my claim is proven!

Similarly, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences, is also proven.

I hope it is clearer now.

An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.

An ailment/illness/disorder is a condition which causes the body or mind to operate abnormally. Since Islam views hetrosexuality as the norm, homosexuality is justifiably considered an illness or ailment.

But even if its an ailment that doesn't mean that such a person loses their rights! They are still loved but they are also helped and treated to aid them in coping with their affliction.

I think this argument has been effectively wrapped up. If you have any new information to contribute you are free to do so, but I hope you will not continue to argue just for the sake of argument.

Peace

[kadafi]

:sl:

A muslim who is a homosexual and still acknowledges that it is haraam is not a kaafir. He will only be reconigzed as a kaafir if he argues that it is halaal and allowed in Islaam.

:w:

[Abu Zakariya]

As-salaamu 'alaykum

I haven't read every post in this thread, so I don't know if someone already linked to this article. If so, I apologize.

Here it is:

http://www.bilalphilips.com/abouthim/artic05a.htm

[root]

Hello Sheikh Haroon.

Of course, when did Islam ever say anything contrary to this? Are you going to debate with little kids, or are you going to see what the religion itself says? I have told you, on numerous occasions, to start using your brain to find the truth. Dont take anyone's word for it, go and see it for yourself. A homosexual has the same rights as everyone else. To be shunned or looked down upon, would go against the Islamic teachings. However, just as the US constitution is against anything that opposes its ideals, and as the UN resolution is against a voice against it, so too does Islam have something to say about homosexuality. It states, quite simply, that it is not a natural act, and therefore God has forbidden it to you. I dont see the problem. No one is saying burn them, or throw them into a pit of snakes.

Thanks for your comments, but your "advice" only leads to the suspicion that all is not as clear as you like us to think. Firstly, I wonder if you could explain since you appear very tolerent of homosexuality why the majority of Islamic countries have a terrible record of oppression against homosexuality to the point that they use the tolerent West for a voice to be heard:

---

Why, are Muslim homosexuals seeking asylum because they are gay and face persacution or death if they return to their country of origin (islamic majority countries)

---

---

Gay men and lesbians live in frightening closets in this ancient land once known as Persia. A theocracy, ever since fundamentalist religionists seized government control following a 1979 uprising against the autocratic Shah, primitive "religious" death penalties for same-sex love are now used to strike terror into Iran's fragmented gay communities. Those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch.

---

Since you know more on the subject of Islam than me. I wonder if you could "Educate" me into understanding your perspective with the following in that Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said (in the Hadith or 'Sayings') the following:

"If you come across men doing as Lut's people did (the prophet Lot from the Old Testament, in Sodom and Gomorrah) kill the one who's doing it, and kill the one it's being done to"

"You should kill homosexuals wherever you find them."

"Homosexuals should be thrown off the tops of high buildings or cliffs"

I wonder if this is why homosexuals are offered to be thrown off from the highest perch in Iran? is their a link!

"You should drive them (effeminate men or masculine women) from your homes and families."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Above 4 quotes not by any member of this forum.........

We are stating, quite clearly and quite firmly, that it is an unnatural act. Proof? See how many animal homosexual cases you can dig up. See what Mother Nature has to say about it.

Fair enough, what does Mother Nature say on the matter:

Well, the answer to that is that your presumption on mother nature is wrong, Homosexual behavior is not only common, but even more common in other species than in humans. While numbers are hard to come by, there are a few that present some interesting patterns. In ostriches, male homosexuality is much more common than bisexuality, but among mule deer, bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. Among our closest living relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, few if any are either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Indeed, all that have been observed are exclusively permanently bisexual.

Species % Homosexual % Bisexual % Heterelsexual
Silver Gulls 10 11 79
Black Gulls 22 16 63
Maquacas 9 56 35
Chimpanzee 0 100 0
Galahs 44 11 44

450 different species have been observed to have clear homosexual activity.

Source: source: Bruce Bahemihl, Ph.D., Biological Exhuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, St. Martin's Press, 2000, page 35

If you are not here to read and understand the explanations, then i am afraid you are wasting more than just your own time my friend.

I am here to read & to understand, but not just to blindly understand.

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Without prejudice

Root

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: LINKS REMOVED. REFER TO FORUM RULES #7, 9, 13, AND 19.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

peace Root,
Please post the references for the alleged sayings of the Prophet Muhammad saws.

As you have introduced nothing in response to my latest post, I feel my conclusion stands, and hence there is no need to respond to your last post.

[root]

peace Root,
Please post the references for the alleged sayings of the Prophet Muhammad saws.

As you have introduced nothing in response to my latest post, I feel my conclusion stands, and hence there is no need to respond to your last post.

---. Why have you removed my links? Why have you removed my references & then asked me to provide them. You have removed the following links:

1. First hand accounts of oppression & violence towards gay muslims in Muslim majority countries.

2. Same as 1 but another source. (Queer Jihad)

3. Independent links (news source) for Muslims seeking and winning appeals against deportation because they are Muslim & Gay, thus being in danger if deported back to country of origin....

I am very angry you have censored by posts..........
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE, NO PROFANITY.

[Bittersteel]

A muslim who is a homosexual and still acknowledges that it is haraam is not a kaafir. He will only be reconigzed as a kaafir if he argues that it is halaal and allowed in Islaam.

that person does not get killed then?

[kadafi]

that person does not get killed then?

:sl:

If he performed homosexual acts [i.e. sexual relations with the same-gender], then he will be executed in an Islaamic state.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Why have you removed my links? Why have you removed my references & then asked me to provide them.

Hi root,
I removed the links because of the forum rules I already listed in the same post. Your point is basically that gays who are allegedly muslims are suffering, but I don't see the relevance of this point to my arguments on the harmful nature of homosexuality.

I can understand your anger, but I hope you will be patient and cooperate with us.

Peace.

[Nakisai]

well I feel that Gays are people who need to be loved more than most. I say that beecause so many people want to hate them, and very little want to help them. don't change the way you talk to him because you can't change him. don't not hug him because of who he is that will only hurt you and the long run. what I'm trying to say is love him becuz he is still your brother.

[Nakisai]

Hi root,
I removed the links because of the forum rules I already listed in the same post. Your point is basically that gays who are allegedly muslims are suffering, but I don't see the relevance of this point to my arguments on the harmful nature of homosexuality.

I can understand your anger, but I hope you will be patient and cooperate with us.

Peace.

the Natudre is harmful not them. I had two gay friends who once was musilm and I love them the same no matter what Ican't change them only one can do that so I just feel as like they are still my brother and sister. all I can do is try to let them know what they do is wrong but I will never Kill or stop talking to them.

[Ummu Amatullah]

Asalamu Alaykum
I agree with Nakisai that we shouldn't try to kill nor avoid any Muslim. Tell them it's wrong and whatever they decide it is between him and his Lord on the Great Day.

[ishkabab]

this is what Islam says bout homosexuality.....

“This sin, the impact of which makes one’s skin crawl, which words cannot describe, is evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul… The heavens, the Earth and the mountains tremble from the impact of this sin. The angels shudder as they anticipate the punishment of Allah to descend upon the people who commit this indescribable sin.” (1)


“We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” And his people gave no answer but this: they said, “drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!” But We saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (5)

[sadia]

nicely put. i think that the alfatiha group really need to think hard about their ideology they have bout islam. they jus cherry pick what they think suits them and the other parts they just ignore. i personally think that its disgusting. (sorry to put it like that but it is).
these people have no understanding of islam,if they did then they would stop and repent. as for others that aint muslim, and do this, its unbelivable, that they actually advertise it, by doing 'gay festival', allowing gay marriages,and to such a point where gay couples are actually allowed to adopt children. its disgusting because its passing a wrong message.

[Zuko]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

I found out a classmate of mine's was lesbian... She's muslim and wears hijab, but its a shame she's fallen into such sin... I hate her by nature and after finding out she was, I hated her even more...

[Mu'maneen]

:sl:

Remember dear Brothers and Sisters of Islam, Lut's ('AlyheeSalaam) wife was left behind and destroyed along with the rest of the disobedient people because she accepted their actions. Their actions as we know it were homosexual, they were gays. Lut ('AlyheeSalaam) was disgusted with them, as we should be disgusted with them.

Their actions are like a disease. Such actions are beyond normal. One would need complete corruption in the heart and soul to commit such a disgusting thing. On the other hand a few people are born with both male and female organs and then it is up to the doctors to see what gender they fall closer too. This is not their fault in this case as it is a medical condition.

We then have those disgusting people who want to be gay or lesbian. Such people should not have a place in society.

If we accept their actions, we will end up like the wife of Lut ('AlyheeSalaam).


---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[muha0154]

Assalaamu Alaykum

Like someone said, hate the action. As for the person himself/herself, it would depend on their nature. I personally find homosexuality sickening, but a lot of gay people are apparently really nice. So it would depend on the person...Also, at the University I used to attend, there's a young Muslim lady who's apparently a lesbian. You wouldn't know she was Muslim until she told you, but she's recently taken to saying things like, "I'm Muslim and I'm gay", probably because she see's nothing wrong with it. May Allah forgive her and all like her and, indeed, all of us, Inshaallah. Take care, all.

Muhammad

[Mu'maneen]

Asalamu'Alycom,

"I'm Muslim and I'm gay", probably because she see's nothing wrong with it. May Allah forgive her and all like her and, indeed, all of us, Inshaallah. Take care, all.

Anyone who dies a gay or lesbian dies in the complete state of Kufr. There is no forgiveness whoever dies in such a state. We must remember the actions of Luts ('AlyheeSalaam) wife who was destroyed because she did not care and accepted such actions.

The person who says she is lesbian and Muslim is fully not acceptable in Islam. It is vital that someone speaks to her urgently as such sin is completely unacceptable in the eyes of Allah.


---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[Noor]

:sl:

Without any permission I'm going to quote Sheik Khalid Yassen on something he said about homosexuality. He said " Even monkeys don't do that" . Honestly, even though the comment was hilarious, it's really thought provoking. Humans which Allah has put forth higher than animals are committing acts that those lower than us do not do. Animals are just not programed that way, humans as well, but when shaytans gets working, that cursed one can control ones desires to even committ such an awful act.
Always be in the rememberance of Allah, in order to be protected.

May Allah protect us...Ameen!


In a case where I would find out if a friend was gay/lesbian, I would directly point my hands to the sky and make dua for them.


:w:

[Mainul_Islam]

Wa alaikum assalaam,

just saw this thread..

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

i havent had any gay friends or knew any gay guys... but i wouldnt hate them. i would probably most likely stop hanging around with him... i would get the shivers if any1 gay was around me.. im kinda afraid of them :confused:

[Muezzin]

I found out a classmate of mine's was lesbian... She's muslim and wears hijab, but its a shame she's fallen into such sin... I hate her by nature and after finding out she was, I hated her even more...

You shouldn't really hate a fellow Muslim by nature, sis :p

But yeah, hate the action. I feel uncomfortable around gay men who are openly um... in touch with their feminine side. If that makes me a dinosaur in the Western world, then a dinosaur I am. But bagsy I get to be a stegosaurus.

[ummbilal]

[QUOTE=Osman]:sl:

Now I'm not an expert on gays but apparently people aren't gay by choice. They just are gay. It's a condition.

salaam alakum brother,
do not believe the lies of kufr scientists who justify the evil actions with thier work,

Allah wa taala has condemed the homosexual act as evil it takes you outside the fold of islam and as for it being genetic the following hadith proves that this is wrong.
by saying everyone is a little bit homosexual they are saying its ok and its NOT.

Hadith - Bukhari 2.440, Narrated Ibn Shihab

Abu Huraira, narrated that the Prophet said, "Every child is born with a true faith (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism or to Christianity or to Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verse: "So set you (O Muhammad SAW) your face towards the religion of pure Islâmic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allâh Alone) Allâh's Fitrah (i.e. Allâh's Islâmic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq*illâh (i.e. the Religion of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not. [Tafsir At*Tabarî, Vol 21, Page 41] " (30.30).

Fear Allah people and dont get sucked into the fitnah of the societies we live in, would you say a peodophile was ok because it was a genetic condition?

how long before scientists tell us it is in their genes???????? :Koran:

know your deen and draw close to Allah so these lies become apparent to you.

re if i foundout my non muslim friend was a homosexual, i would talk to them about Allah and give them a copy of the quran, i'd make it clear i know they werent born this was its a deception of the shaitan and Allah is most forgiving.

I would find it difficult to be thier frind though, to be honest

i found out a friend was a drug dealer and very unrepentant, it discusted me sooo much i am nolonger frinds with them, the same goes for this, they choose to do the action.

[Uthman]

:sl:

Thank you for both for your clarifications. Forgive me for my blind acceptance. But whether it is or is not a condition or an illness, are we just to abandon then? Surely, they still need help. What do you think?

:w:

[ummbilal]

Yes I agree they need help and to know that it is not a genetic condition, its a mental attitude, maybe because of childhood experiences or abuse,

remember Allah tests us all in different ways, a person who feels homosexual feelings is not kufr until the act upon it, we are not judged on our thoughts, however if that person makes lots of dua, is aware that these feelings are haram(just as a man who falls in love with a married woman would control himself rather than do haram)

maybe Allah will bless them with a pious spouse to marry and over come this test inshaallah.

re blind acceptance,
we were not born with knowlage Allah gives us knowlage Allhumdulilah so dont feel bad i once thought as you did too.

[Mu'maneen]

:sl:

a person who feels homosexual feelings is not kufr until the act upon it, we are not judged on our thoughts, however if that person makes lots of dua, is aware that these feelings are haram(just as a man who falls in love with a married woman would control himself rather than do haram)

Jaza Allah Kher Fe Dunya Wal Akhira Dear Sister for adding this important point. Shaytan can play with the mind of Man in the most evil of ways. We must always realise that Shaytan cannot force us to do an action, rather he tempts us.


---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[Salah ud Deen]

:sl:

It's the act of being gay that one should dislike and not the person, I think. A friend of mine once said that hate is a dark and destructive emotion which can be difficult to overcome.

I think I would pity the person, more than anything. And perhaps pray a little, for his/her guidance.

:w:

Hatred leads to the Dark side. This is a true statement.

[Uthman]

:sl:

JazakAllah for your excellent post sister ummbilal. :) May Allah reward you.

Hatred leads to the Dark side. This is a true statement.

Indeed. May Allah save us from it.

As a side note, I always wondered why Luke Skywalker didn't simply tell Darth Vader to turn to the light side of the force.

:w:

[czgibson]

Queenoftheworld,

Isn't it a bit strong to say you hate a whole group? That kind of thinking can lead to trouble...

I'm sorry to speak so frankly, your majesty, please forgive me.

Peace

[Zuko]

Queenoftheworld,

Isn't it a bit strong to say you hate a whole group? That kind of thinking can lead to trouble...

I'm sorry to speak so frankly, your majesty, please forgive me.

Peace

You know what? You're lucky because I got some food to calm my temper (I had a fight with a sibling so I was bit fired up)... Its okay my servant.... True I shouldn't be hating them, but when your worst enemy is homosexual, you can't help generalizing that other lesbians/gays might be the same... Although I know that that is a very dumb generalization indeed... I guess I apologize....... :-[

[libyanhero]

Wallahi sister just keep an openmind, some homosexuals rn't meant homosexual and Allah won't put you in Hell just because you been a homosexual but you have to repent deeply and sincerely from it and never turn back and Allah knows best. The only thing thats not accepted by Allah is shirk(associating partners with Allah), life is long lived and depending on Allahs will but you have enough time in life to turn and repent, its ten times hard for people like that to turn to Allah than it is for us because they commited major sins and takes u to the furthest deepest hole of darkness a way from Allah.

you know though really some homosexuals and lesbians are muslims and some of them need help really bad and we can't do much to help them but this homosexual muslim goes to the mosque at times and may Allah guide him thats all I can say but dont hate appreciate. When I say don't hate, I mean hate what they do but don't hate the person him/herself cuz u never know whats in their mind, and people are wierd, odd crazy and psychological ill but those people need help and some don't know how to say "I need help" but May Allah guide them before death comes to haunt them

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I don't think gay people should be hated. Although the idea of it might seem disgusting to non-gay people, there's no real reason to hate them. I've had some friends who were gay, and for the most part they were hilarious. It's common for people who suffer regular bullying to either develop a sense of humour or break down completely. When you think of the amount of pressure that is on a gay person in public, it's obvious that they're not really making a choice about it, they can't help the way they are. This is not to say it's genetic or whatever, I don't know about all that...

I certainly don't think they're committing a huge sin, either.

Peace

[Uthman]

:sl:

I don't personally have any negative feelings towards it. At best, I can say that I just don't understand it. What I really cannot fathom is the hate that it attracts from people, particularly religious people. That is what attracts negative feelings from me.

:w:

[- Qatada -]

:sl: warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

PLEASE REMEMBER:

It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]

Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.


Allah (swt) knows best.

wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I don't personally have any negative feelings towards it. At best, I can say that I just don't understand it. What I really cannot fathom is the hate that it attracts from people, particularly religious people. That is what attracts negative feelings from me.

Absolutely right.

Peace

[Mu'maneen]

:sl:

Originally Posted by akhee
warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

PLEASE REMEMBER:

It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]

Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.


Allah (swt) knows best.

wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

Brother, are you trying to claim that all gays or lesbians are Muslim? Forgive me if I wrong.

Like I said earlier:

No. As stated earlier, accepting to be a gay or lesbian goes against the words of Allah, which is a complete act of Kufr.

One enters the state of Kufr and has left the fold of Islam whether they say they are Muslim or not. One cannot claim to be Muslim and reject any part of the Quran. The declaration of the Shahada is to 100% accept every word of Allah and the Authentic recording's of the words of Muhammad (salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

And with the words of Sister UmmBilal:

a person who feels homosexual feelings is not kufr until the act upon it

---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[libyanhero]

Greetings,

I don't think gay people should be hated. Although the idea of it might seem disgusting to non-gay people, there's no real reason to hate them. I've had some friends who were gay, and for the most part they were hilarious. It's common for people who suffer regular bullying to either develop a sense of humour or break down completely. When you think of the amount of pressure that is on a gay person in public, it's obvious that they're not really making a choice about it, they can't help the way they are. This is not to say it's genetic or whatever, I don't know about all that...

I certainly don't think they're committing a huge sin, either.

Peace

You know though a gay person is an unbeliever at the time of him committing the act and if he/she doesn't repent sincerely and they die during that time then they die as unbelievers because they presist in sheer ignorance.

There is nothing I know of in the hadiths that is about homosexuality but one verse in the quran that lashes of Prophet Lut for committing the sin yet he was given a chance to repent and go back yet though he presisted in his ignogrance so he died as an unbeliver

and the hadith when the prophet(saws) said: A person is not a believer when he/she commits these two acts fornication and the drinking of alcohol.

If they continue to be gay and for instance, you try to talk to them and thier ignorant and presist then Allahu Masta3aan, what can you do to animals, is there a word worser than animals cuz animals don't do this either

[czgibson]

Greetings Libyan Hero,

You know though a gay person is an unbeliever at the time of him committing the act and if he/she doesn't repent sincerely and they die during that time then they die as unbelievers because they presist in sheer ignorance.

OK. I'm an unbeliever too. It makes no difference to me what people get up to in their own homes. And I've seen no evidence to support the idea that homosexual people are inherently immoral.

If they continue to be gay and for instance, you try to talk to them and thier ignorant and presist then Allahu Masta3aan, what can you do to animals, is there a word worser than animals cuz animals don't do this either

Animals don't do this either? Here is a list of animals that have exhibited homosexual behaviour (over 450 at the last count):

Animal Homosexuality

See also:

Non-Human Animal Sexuality

Peace

[libyanhero]

Man we have gays on this forum who argue, if your gay now go repent thats all I have to say but if you continue the yes you are an unbeliever so give it up

[czgibson]

Man we have gays on this forum who argue, if your gay now go repent thats all I have to say but if you continue the yes you are an unbeliever so give it up

I argue, I'm not gay, I'm an unbeliever. That's my position. What is it you'd like to say? Repent?

Peace

[libyanhero]

Oh sorry bro, I was refering to muslims becoming homosexuals not the other way around in the case of an unbeliver as soon as he/she accepts Islam their sins are wiped and its like starting fresh again.

[aligunglee]

[QUOTE]I think you should treat him nicely like a human even though he's doing an inhumane act.

He should be bring back on the right track.
If am not mistaken, Prophet Hud's people were gays and Allah s.w.t. punished them after having warned them. Sooo, I dont think that gays must be treated nicely.
Forgive me if have erred.

Maa'assalaama.

[Uthman]

:sl: aligunglee, :)

Sooo, I dont think that gays must be treated nicely

So, how do you think they should be treated?

:w:

[aligunglee]

[QUOTE]I think you should treat him nicely like a human even though he's doing an inhumane act.

He should be bring back on the right track.
If am not mistaken, Prophet Hud's people were gays and Allah s.w.t. punished them after having warned them. Sooo, I dont think that gays must be treated nicely.
Forgive me if have erred.

Maa'assalaama.

[Uthman]

:sl: aligunglee, :)

Sooo, I dont think that gays must be treated nicely

So, how do you think they should be treated?

Ok, in order to stop us from going into yet another loop, consider the following verse which is perfectly applicable:

[016:125]
Invite to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

[sherbie cola]

In Islam to be gay is a very big sin and we should refrain from such people as what they do is unthinkable and is prohibited , Allah made man and woman to procreate , gays will only harm themselfs and create Aids and other illnesses and will not be granted Janat.

[ummbilal]

Salaam alakum

Brother muslims practise Loving and Hating for the sake of Allah.

I love my son but if he commited such an act without repentance, after I had taught him true islam(inshaallah) I would hate him because Allah would hate him for the evil he was doing and Allahu alam
Allah knows best.
May Allah make all our children strong in ever increasing imman and keep them away from shameful deeds.

didnt the prophet saws say if his daughter Fatima ra stole something he would cut off her hand the same as everyone else as this is the law of Allah.

isnt it christians who say hate the act and not the portrayer of the act?

forgive me if i'm wrong maybe someone with more knowlage could confirm.

JK in advance.

[akulion]

salam alaikum
I would never support gays for only 1 reason and that is the wife of Lut(as) was counted amongst those people ONLY because she sympathized with them.
To me I dont mind being "politically incorrect" but I simply cannot afford to be "incorrect in the eyes of Allah"
In that past I have lived in many different countries and often people have looked at me and called me "racist" for not sympathising with gays - to them my answer was simple
"if in your view its ok for someone to 'do' u up ur back side then by all means say its ok to be gay"
Of course their argument was always, "But we dont prefer for ourselves but we say its ok if someone else does it"
Well I always say, "Do on to others as you would like done on to you" Thus if I were to (Astaghfirullah) say that its ok to be gay then I would have to accept that for myself as well - and that aint gona happen insha'Allah - no way!
To Allah we belong and to him is our return.
We should never forget where our loyalties lie.
May Allah swt always keep us on the straight path. ameen

[Uthman]

:sl: Ummbilal,

You would hate your son? Nah, you're talking muffins. No-one could hate their son even if they tried! It just defies logic! A mother-child bond is one of the greatest things there is! :)

didnt the prophet saws say if his daughter Fatima ra stole something he would cut off her hand the same as everyone else as this is the law of Allah.

True, but that doesn't mean he hated Fatima (R.A.).

isnt it christians who say hate the act and not the portrayer of the act?

Yes, that's right. By asking this question, do you mean to say that the christians are wrong? On the contrary, it is important that we recognise good wherever it is found. What do you think? :)

Also, why do you say that Allah would hate your child?

May Allah make all our children strong in ever increasing imman and keep them away from shameful deeds.

Ameen!

:sl: Akulion, :)

I fully agree with your point of view and your reasoning except for this:

"if in your view its ok for someone to 'do' u up ur back side then by all means say its ok to be gay"

Such a custom isn't as common as the stereotype might have us believe.

May Allah guide us all and he knows best

:w:

[ummbilal]

salaam alakum brother,

i would hate my son if he was a homosexual, because i practise loving and hating for the sake of Allah, if Allah commands that homosexuality takes you outside islam it gains you the anger and curse of Allah, how could i love him if he knowingly did this without repentance?

Al Wala' Wal Bara' (Love and Hate for Allah's Sake)

Al Wala Wal Bara
http://quranicverse99.tripod.com/islamicways/id15.html

this is a major part of islam that many muslims do not practise,
and in many muslim countries because of cencorship its forbidden for immams to give khutbahs on the subject,

Allhumdulilah i had the oppotunity to study under a wonderful shiekh a few years ago, he is in a english prision remember him and his family in your duas,
may Allah make this easy for him and give him sabr and jannah inshaallah.

he was Shiekh Abdullah Faisal(i forgot to add the name )

dont get me wrong my sons are part of me, when they hurt i hurt, when they laugh so do i. but this is something else altogether.

[ummbilal]

No Allah didnt say hate your son, he said hate the act he is doing if he was and a mother will never hate her children no matter what they do, her love,mercy and compassion just can't

mashallah allahu alam brother Allah knows best
be careful what you say,
where is your quote to support your view that Allah says hate the act?

only Allah knows the secret of the bosom,

[Uthman]

:sl: dear sister,

i would hate my son if he was a homosexual, because i practise loving and hating for the sake of Allah, if Allah commands that homosexuality takes you outside islam it gains you the anger and curse of Allah, how could i love him if he knowingly did this without repentance?

I apologise if I sound persistent. Being a homosexual may well place you outside of the fold of Islam, but that does not necessarily mean that Allah hates them. Does Allah hate all kuffaar? Sure, if you had brought your child up to know, understand and believe that homosexuality is wrong then it might earn the wrath and anger of Allah. But hate? I don't believe that. Sister, the bottom line is this; more often than not, we do not choose our emotions or the way we feel. You cannot simply choose to love or hate somebody. You have to feel it it inside of you and then realise that "I love this person" or "I hate this person". Allowing our emotions to govern our actions is another case entirely. Again, I feel I must re-iterate that hate is a very powerful word and I don't think that you could possibly hate your son even if you wanted to. Anger would be more well-placed in this scenario.

Al Wala' Wal Bara' (Love and Hate for Allah's Sake)

Al Wala Wal Bara
http://quranicverse99.tripod.com/islamicways/id15.html

this is a major part of islam that many muslims do not practise,
and in many muslim countries because of cencorship its forbidden for immams to give khutbahs on the subject,

Allhumdulilah i had the oppotunity to study under a wonderful shiekh a few years ago, he is in a english prision remember him and his family in your duas,
may Allah make this easy for him and give him sabr and jannah inshaallah.

he was Shiekh Abdullah Faisal(i forgot to add the name )

Good info, JazakAllah. :)

dont get me wrong my sons are part of me, when they hurt i hurt, when they laugh so do i. but this is something else altogether.

Is it? I have heard of homosexual muslims who weep and beg Allah to change the way they are. It isn't a choice that they made. It is the way they are and it is their right that people like me and you are more empathetic and understanding towards their situation, is it not?

May Allah guide them all to the straight (in every sense of the word) path.

:w:

[Uthman]

:sl: Hashim u lil mushy-face,

I agree with what you said but I find it incredibly hard to believe that Allah (SWT) would hate one of his creation. I understand that he will be angry, especially if the person knew very well that what he is doing is wrong and knows that he has directly disobeyed Allah, but hate? Allah (SWT) probably will not love him as much as he loves his faithful servant and will undoubtedly be angry. But just the world hate itself sounds venomous or something. Do you think that Allah will hate a homosexual?

:w:

[Uthman]

:sl: all,

This is to no-one specifically. I always find it useful in situations like this to refer back to Muhammad (SAWS) and what he would do in such scenarios. How do you imagine that he would feel towards such people?

:w:

[libyanhero]

Bad really bad but what are you gonna do, stone them even people who commit fornication and adultery rnt stoned, the one who keeps it secret and noone knows what he does than thats different because he has a chance with Allah to repent but the one who tells it publicly should be stoned because he/she wants to make fitnah on earth wanna make helpless people think or in hardships and encourages them to do the same, yet it also brings shame to the families

[azim]

I really dont understand homosexuality. Some say its enviromental - Some say its genetic. Whatever it is, it's a test from Allah to that person. I think maybe in the past it was less of a problem because society shunned it, but now society has stopped shunning it, but even encourages it, so it's become a much bigger problem.

Just to elaborate - by encourage I'm reffering to my College. We have a very very large number of gays (you'll get a token homosexual in every class). It's to the extent, that its almost 'cool' to be gay. There are lots of boys, and even more girls, who say they are 'bisexual' just to be different and stand out. Noudhubililah.

Oh, and I have had friends/aquaintances who came 'out'. I usually cut all connections and links with that person. I heard a hadith once where it says the 'angels shudder in fear of the punishment Allah will inflict on that person'. I personally, would not want to be near the person on whom Allah has promised a terrible punishment.

[Samee]

:sl: Do you think that Allah will hate a homosexual?

:w:

:sl:

Brother Osman, Allah hated the Homosexuals so much that he completely destroyed a civilization of them. He blew them off the map. And if History is any indication...

[azim]

homosexuality isnt genetic, the peeps must be mustants, alienated to be homosexual ;D

They say genetics somehow influences homosexuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4215427.stm

Would men have to wear hijabs around gay men? ;D

Anyone, someone give me rep points. I NEED MORE!!!!

:sl:

Brother Osman, Allah hated the Homosexuals so much that he completely destroyed a civilization of them. He blew them off the map. And if History is any indication...

To me that's not Allah an example of Allah's anger, but Allah's mercy. To prevent anymore more of the children of Adam to be influenced by the people of Sodom and to produce a clear warning that homosexuality is wrong. If Allah 'hated' them, then he would not have sent a messenger to try and show them the striahgt way.

[Samee]

Allah tried to help them through a messenger. When they rejected it, Allah Killed EVERYONE. And not just die in their sleeps. We're talking particle destroyment.

It was definately a warning, but who are we to argue who Allah hates and who he loves? Astaghfiruallah, I just got a chill in my body because Allah is probably angry with me because I am arguing over who he likes and who he hates!

I suggest we drop the conversation about Allah hating gays.

[baby_muslimah15]

No Allah didnt say hate your son, he said hate the act he is doing if he was and a mother will never hate her children no matter what they do, her love,mercy and compassion just can't

If my children were doing somethin that Allah hated then of course I would try and help them but if they continue to do that act then I could easily hate my child...Because I love what Allah loves, and hate what Allah hates......And if I found out my child was gay then I wouldn't claim them cause thats just NASTY, HARAAM

[Mu'maneen]

:sl:

Theres a big difference between anger and hate - but like Samiullah said, it is not for us to say who Allah hates and doesnt hate.

We are told in Quran concerning those whom Allah hates and whom He loves, and one of the qualities of love towards Allah is to hate what Allah hates, and love what Allah loves.
This is where we say, "I love for the sake of Allah", and "I hate for the sake of Allah."


---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[azim]

:sl:



We are told in Quran concerning those whom Allah hates and whom He loves, and one of the qualities of love towards Allah is to hate what Allah hates, and love what Allah loves.
This is where we say, "I love for the sake of Allah", and "I hate for the sake of Allah."


---------------------

Visit my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

Jazakallah' khairal brother for the info. I had always percieved it however that Allah 'hates' his creations sinning, not that Allah hates any of his creation.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I agree with what you said but I find it incredibly hard to believe that Allah (SWT) would hate one of his creation. I understand that he will be angry, especially if the person knew very well that what he is doing is wrong and knows that he has directly disobeyed Allah, but hate? Allah (SWT) probably will not love him as much as he loves his faithful servant and will undoubtedly be angry. But just the world hate itself sounds venomous or something. Do you think that Allah will hate a homosexual?

:sl:
Some questions on the issue of hatred and the Creator...

Is Iblis (Shaytan) our enemy and the enemy of Allah? Are the enemies of the Angels or Prophets, enemies of Allah? Should Muslims love or hate Shaytan and the enemies of Allah?

We know clearly from the Qur'an and Sunnah that we are to oppose and detest the enemies of Allah. This is obvious. As Allah swt says:

58:22 Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred.

Now, before I clarify the issue with regards to gays, I should repeat what I had mentioned far earlier in the thread to summarize.

Homosexuality is clearly a sin in Islam, it has severe consequences from both a medical and an Islamic perspective. The two scientific theories - that it is caused by environmental factors or that it is caused by genetic factors - are irrelevant to the issue. If it is caused by environmental factors, then it is the product of certain factors in society which need to be eliminated and these individuals need to be guided and helped. If it is a 'genetic' cause then it is a test for that individual just as other individuals are born with mental disabilites etc. But either way, these individuals need help to control their desires and not act on them (in the case of a genetic trait) or they need the help to eliminate these desires (in the case of a environmental trait).

Remember that Prophet Lut (pbuh) first called his people to leave their evil ways. Many of these gays are simply the product of this society since society views it as acceptable, they've been brought up believing it to be an acceptable lifestyle, so they need to be informed that this is a destructive lifestyle that will ruin them in this life and the hereafter. Whoever persists in this matter after being warned, they are to be opposed because they are committing a sin.

Wa 'alaykum as-salaam.

[YamahaR1]

As a christian, the holy bible tells me:

Matthew 22:34-40

But when the Pharisees heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they gathered themselves together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Back to the original question....
You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

My answer:
No. However, I would pray for them.

[Far7an]

Greetings Yamaha,

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

I would agree with brother Osman on this..

It's the act of being gay that one should dislike and not the person, I think. A friend of mine once said that hate is a dark and destructive emotion which can be difficult to overcome.

I think I would pity the person, more than anything. And perhaps pray a little, for his/her guidance.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

As a christian, the holy bible tells me:

This is what the Bible says about homosexuality:

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

So what does the Bible command as the punishment for homosexuality?


Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

Regards

[Idris]

Asalamu Alaikum

You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?

:w:


I'd take them to the highest building i can find and I'd fly kick him off it :mad:

You think I am hursh?

What do you think the likes of 'Umar would have done :mad:

[minaz]

What do you think the likes of 'Umar would have done

If you are refering to Umar R.A. then i'd guess that he as we should do would of adopted the methodology of the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) talk to the sinner and convey true Islam to him/her. If you are referring to some random Umar then I certainly wouldn't wanna catch him on a bad day :P

[Idris]

If you are refering to Umar R.A. then i'd guess that he as we should do would of adopted the methodology of the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) talk to the sinner and convey true Islam to him/her. If you are referring to some random Umar then I certainly wouldn't wanna catch him on a bad day :P

Masha Allah...yeah true ...you caught me on a bad day.

[minaz]

lol, i'm thankful you don't encorporate the nature of " random Umar" - i'm bloody scared of heights!

[root]

I'd take them to the highest building i can find and I'd fly kick him off it

Homophobic comment. Remember that next time u want to use the phrase Islamicphobia.

[Muhammad]

Homophobic comment. Remember that next time u want to use the phrase Islamicphobia.

Greetings,

Having a phobia for something means:

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

I doubt anyone here is afraid of homosexuality in the sense that they wrongfully dislike it when it is not a dangerous thing. On the contrary, people hate and fear Islam when it is a religion of peace and this is simply due to lack of knowledge. It is common knowledge though, that being gay is not a natural way to live.

Peace.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Homophobic comment. Remember that next time u want to use the phrase Islamicphobia.

Hi Root,
You're putting Islam on the same level as homosexuality. Yet, we know that homosexuality has disatrous medical consequences, which you weren't able to deny. Thus, it is rightly condemned as an evil sin.

On the other hand, while some people may claim that Islam is bad, I have not seen a single allegation against Islam which has not been refuted.

So, your comment above is as though one were to condemn cannibals and you reply by calling it a 'cannibal-phobic' comment!

Regards

[quran4me]

salamu alykum a'uthu billah tfeh about such act that is the most discustingest things a human can ever do. in islam the gay person should be killed according to islamic shari'ah.if i was a president of a muslim contury i'll kill every single ***** after advising them and asking them to repent to allah the most high. waallahu alam :brother:

[azim]

Salaam.

Despite this topic being discussed on another thread, I'd like to look at it from a different perspective inshallah in this one.

The Islamic viewpoint of homosexuality is that is it wrong and unnatural. People refute this through a number of claims, and I'd like to put them under examination here.

Would a relationship between a human and an animal be accepted? Most people (I hope) would say, no - it's wrong. The same people may agree with homosexuality, but in the end, the arguments boil down to the same thing.

If you agree with homosexuality, you MUST by principle, agree with beastiality.

If you say: -

Humans and animals are not biologically compatiable - Then nor are two males or two females.

A human being is capable of love - so are animals.

Human beings can consent - what if the animal iniated the sexual act (I've seen dogs try it on with big rocks, so its possible)

In the end, it boils down to your moral standards. Some people say Islam is backward for not agreeing with homosexuality, but are those who find beastiality repulsive backward for not accepting it? Moral decay often occurs in a society with a lack of ethics and a hedonistic values. Islam has some fixed values to ensure that a society does not fall into such a perverse nature.

Salaam.

[czgibson]

Hi Ansar,

Yet, we know that homosexuality has disatrous medical consequences, which you weren't able to deny. Thus, it is rightly condemned as an evil sin.

Which medical consequences are you speaking of?

Peace

Greetings Azim,

If you agree with homosexuality, you MUST by principle, agree with beastiality.

By what principle exactly?

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Which medical consequences are you speaking of?

I'm glad you asked. It was important point I brought up early in the thread and I didn't want it to be forgotten as it got buried under a lot of replies.

The site I provided was:
http://www.narth.com/docs/consequences.html

But the specific point that I emphasized was the disastrous effects of anal sex.

Can anyone refute that anal intercourse tears the rectal lining of the receptive partner, regardless of whether a condom is worn, and the subsequent contact with fecal matter leads to a host of diseases?

Diseases to which active homosexuals are vulnerable can be classified as follows:

Classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, ["gay bowel disease"], Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (related to and/or resulting in fecal incontinence, hemorroids, anal fissure, foreign bodies lodged in the rectum, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS).

Read from this point in the thread to find the discussion on this topic.

Regards

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl: azim,
Threads merged. I thnk one thread is best for this.

The Islamic viewpoint of homosexuality is that is it wrong and unnatural. People refute this through a number of claims, and I'd like to put them under examination here.

Careful with your wording here - some people rebut (attempt to refute) the claim that homosexuality is wrong, but they haven't been able to refute (prove it to be false) the claim. As I've pointed out here, homosexuality has disastrous consequences, including medical, societal and spiritual.

Other than that, I think you've raised a very interesting analogy in comparing homosexuality with beastiality, and I would agree with the point you made.

By what principle exactly?

I believe Azim is referring to the principles behind the arguments commonly used by pro-homosexuals that its one's personal lifestyle and we have no right to interfere with their private life, etc.

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I believe Azim is referring to the principles behind the arguments commonly used by pro-homosexuals that its one's personal lifestyle and we have no right to interfere with their private life, etc.

Surely there's a difference here - homosexual people can give consent, whereas animals can't.

I support the rights of homosexuals, but I don't support the rights of zoophiles.

Peace

Greetings Ansar,

You've mentioned a number of ailments, all of which could be caught through heterosexual sex too. Also, you are simply discussing male homosexual anal sex - obviously gay men also have other ways of pleasuring each other.

How would you go about showing that lesbianism is wrong?

(You must be aware that the ideas you're putting forward would strike most people in the West as being bigoted in the extreme.)

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You've mentioned a number of ailments, all of which could be caught through heterosexual sex too.

As I pointed out to root, I'm not saying that these diseases are specific to homosexuals. Yes, heterosexuals could engage in anal sex as well (that's why in Islam its forbidden), but that doesn't negate the fact that any group practicising it is wrong. As I wrote before:

Greetings Root,

My original statement was that there were severe medical and islamic consequences to homosexuality. You challenged me to substantiate my claim (the medical aspect I assumed), therefore I proved my claim based on the fact that homosexuality involves anal sex, a very dangerous practice with severe medical consequences. Therefore, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences was 100% true. Your only counter-argument was that anal sex is not practiced only by homosexuals. Of course that's beside the point. I don't care about the harmful consequences of other types of illnesses, I was only dealing with homosexuality.

The fallacy of your argument is akin to the following argument:

if I were arguing that car A is a poor and terrible vehicle, then you respond for proof of car A's low quality. I respond by pointing out its motor problems. You counter by saying that car B also has those problems!

What difference does it make if car B has the same problems?! If car A has the problems then my claim is proven!

Similarly, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences, is also proven.

And the diseases I highlighted are those that are abundant in the homosexual community.

Also, you are simply discussing male homosexual anal sex - obviously gay men also have other ways of pleasuring each other.

It really makes no difference to my argument. I'm not talking about how they 'pleasure' eachother', I'm talking about the disastrous consequences of homosexual acts. And because the west has given the message that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, homosexuals will desire to engage in homosexual acts.

Secondly, Islam condemns the homosexual acts. From an Islamic perspective, it makes no difference whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic or environmental. Because even if its genetic, then it is considered just like any other medical disease that someone may be born with. If gay's are born with the desire to commit these acts, then its no different from people who are born with the desire to commit fornication and are unable to get married. Everyone must restrain their desires in Islam.

How would you go about showing that lesbianism is wrong?

Well, there is a difference between showing something is wrong, and showing that something has negative consequences. There are risks associated with lesbianism as well, but its wrong in the same way that all homosexuality is wrong.

(You must be aware that the ideas you're putting forward would strike most people in the West as being bigoted in the extreme.)

If this is considered 'bigoted' then so is every medical analysis of all the various mental disorders. Perhaps you could elaborate on what is 'bigoted' about this?

Regards

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

As I pointed out to root, I'm not saying that these diseases are specific to homosexuals. Yes, heterosexuals could engage in anal sex as well (that's why in Islam its forbidden), but that doesn't negate the fact that any group practicising it is wrong.

So why aren't you railing against anal sex here then? A lot of the time you seem to say "homosexuality" when in fact what you mean is "anal sex".

And the diseases I highlighted are those that are abundant in the homosexual community.

And in other communities too.

It really makes no difference to my argument. I'm not talking about how they 'pleasure' eachother', I'm talking about the disastrous consequences of homosexual acts. And because the west has given the message that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, homosexuals will desire to engage in homosexual acts.

By "homosexual acts", again you seem to be referring to anal sex only. Here's something you said to Root in an earlier post:

I don't say "Only homosexuals engage in anal sex."

I say, "homosexuals only engage in anal sex."!!

Homosexuals do many things with each other besides anal sex. Lesbians are homosexual, and they hardly engage in anal sex at all. This is a point I think you've pretty much missed, and it obviously makes a difference to your argument.

Secondly, Islam condemns the homosexual acts. From an Islamic perspective, it makes no difference whether the cause of homosexuality is genetic or environmental. Because even if its genetic, then it is considered just like any other medical disease that someone may be born with.

Not true. Do you think less of someone's moral character when they acquire a disease?

Well, there is a difference between showing something is wrong, and showing that something has negative consequences. There are risks associated with lesbianism as well, but its wrong in the same way that all homosexuality is wrong.

If the risks are different, why is it wrong in the same way?

The risks mentioned in the article are lifestyle risks which are not unique to gay people. Also, as the summary of the article at the top of the page says:

Society's disapproval, the study's author suggests,
is the likely source of these risky lifestyles.

In other words, if homophobia did not exist in society, then neither would the risks mentioned.

If this is considered 'bigoted' then so is every medical analysis of all the various mental disorders. Perhaps you could elaborate on what is 'bigoted' about this?

Certainly. You have chosen to think less of people who are gay with no good reason. You equate "homosexuality" with "anal sex", even though this is not the only method of homosexual sex - certainly not for lesbians, whose lifestyle, you say, is wrong "in the same way" as that of gay men.

On the point about mental disorders, I'm shocked that you could say this. Psychiatrists study mental disorders in the hope of helping their patients, but they do not cast moral aspersions on them simply because they have developed, say, schizophrenia. Your attitude towards homosexuality is very different from this. You have not studied it, and you show your lack of knowledge about it with every post. It is something unknown to you, and you are afraid of it, so you lash out with accusations and assertions that prove nothing.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. There may be health risks, but these exist for heterosexuals too. To say that homosexuality is wrong is one of the most widely known forms of bigotry.

Sorry to sound harsh here, Ansar, but in this case I believe your position is well and truly groundless.

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So why aren't you railing against anal sex here then? A lot of the time you seem to say "homosexuality" when in fact what you mean is "anal sex".

No, I mean both.

Homosexuals do many things with each other besides anal sex. Lesbians are homosexual, and they hardly engage in anal sex at all. This is a point I think you've pretty much missed, and it obviously makes a difference to your argument.

Do you agree with someone marrying their parents, so long as there is consent? Most people argue against this by pointing out the genetic diseases that could result from this. But then, using your point, someone could respond by saying that they have other ways to 'pleasure' eachother.

Not true. Do you think less of someone's moral character when they acquire a disease?

We think less of one's moral character if they are unable to control their desires. Homosexuality does not mean that someone is unable to control their desires, it means that they have different desires to cope with. So, if someone has homoseuxal tendencies, but they restrain themselves and turn away from evil and towards God, I would not think less of them, on the contrary I would admire their moral character and piety.

To say that homosexuality is wrong is one of the most widely known forms of bigotry.

And why is that?

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

No, I mean both.

Why is lesbianism wrong, then, in your view?

Do you agree with someone marrying their parents, so long as there is consent? Most people argue against this by pointing out the genetic diseases that could result from this. But then, using your point, someone could respond by saying that they have other ways to 'pleasure' eachother.

Ansar, with all due respect, this is a silly example. Incest could cause the conception of a child; homosexuality could not. This makes it a very different situation.

We think less of one's moral character if they are unable to control their desires. Homosexuality does not mean that someone is unable to control their desires, it means that they have different desires to cope with.

Different to whom? Everyone has different desires, I think.

So, if someone has homoseuxal tendencies, but they restrain themselves and turn away from evil and towards God, I would not think less of them, on the contrary I would admire their moral character and piety.

That's nothing less than I'd expect, and I understand the way you feel about it. I'm just not sure why homosexuality is seen as such an aberration. It seems to have been the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, that have promoted the idea of homosexuality being wrong. Why is this? In traditions outside these, the general view of homosexuality has been neutral or even positive (in some cases, such as ancient Greece, sacred).

What is it about homosexuality that is so wrong?

And why is that?

Do you mean: why is it widely known, or why is it seen as bigotry?

Peace

[Daoud]

being gay is no more a choice than being left or right handed or having blue eyes or brown

to suggest otherwise is to say that Allah made a mistake with His creation

[azim]

being gay is no more a choice than being left or right handed or having blue eyes or brown

to suggest otherwise is to say that Allah made a mistake with His creation

Homosexuality is not genetics. Allah also stated in the Quran homosexuality is wrong.

Allah also made MEN and WOMEN biologically compatable, if that doesnt make it obvious enough.

Greetings,


Surely there's a difference here - homosexual people can give consent, whereas animals can't.

I support the rights of homosexuals, but I don't support the rights of zoophiles.

Peace

Did you read ALL of my post bro?

[Daoud]

Homosexuality is not genetics.

prove it

Allah also stated in the Quran homosexuality is wrong.

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

[azim]

prove it

"Homosexuality is not purely genetic. ... Environmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay." - Dr. Dean Hamer, author of the X chromosome study

"It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain." - - Dr. Simon LeVay, author of the hypothalamus study

The only study that promotes a gay gene is shown in the link below: -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

Yet the results could just as well be linked in to enviromental factors. I also believe several other members have posted links that refute the gay gene in this thread earlier on.

Finally, if you are a muslim, then genetics should matters - Allah's word should.

[czgibson]

Greetings Azim,

Did you read ALL of my post bro?

Yes, I read all of your post. What point is it you'd like to raise?

Peace

[ummbilal]

czgibson, I understand you are playing devils advocate,

homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural and against the laws of God.

a man who feels peopdophilic tendances towards teenage boys acts on them, do you judge him the same as a homosexual?
he cant help these feelings right?

he wont concieve a child either?
if he convinces the young boy he wants to do this too does that make it ok???

my point is is you believe homosexuality is a genetic condition then you must also believe a peopdophile is a victim of genetics gone wrong?

what about transsexuals, Did God make a mistake and great them a male body when they are indeed female, as they claim??

AUTHU BILAHI

ancient greece held homosexuality as sacred?


they didnt believe in modesty as we do in islam and encouraged men to look upon other naked men in wrestling and sports, to muslims and other faiths this is abhorrant, discusting.


up until 50 or so years ago being a homosexual was a criminal offence in Uk, now its commen place, did all these homosexuals exist 50 years ago or are young men being confused by the constant social conditioning they are subjected to??
turn on childrens tv and they have homosexuals presenting, MTV is full of homosexuality george micheal etc..

its seen as hip to be homosexual.

it is a deception of the shaitan.

as an athest i dont really expect you to understand when i say no men were homosexual until the people of Lot as and Allah destroyed them.

this is reason enough for me to know homosexuality is wrong,

inshaallah Allah will guide you

i wish you peace.

[azim]

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

"What! Do you come to the males from among the creatures.
And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives. Nay - you are a people exceeding limits!" - Surah 26 - Verses 165 - 166

"What! Do you approach men lustfully rather than women. Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly!" - Surah 27 - Verse 55

"Most surely you come unto males in lust rather than females. Nay, you are a wanton people." - Surah 7 - Verse 81

Brother please, don't act ignorantly on this topic. Research the matter, ask the scholars, read the books. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge that you are correct.

Greetings,


Surely there's a difference here - homosexual people can give consent, whereas animals can't.

I support the rights of homosexuals, but I don't support the rights of zoophiles.

Peace

In my post I mentioned the 'consent' argument and then ask what if the animal iniated the sexual contact - which is more than possible. In that case, is it ok?

[ummbilal]

prove it

mashallah

homosexuality is not genetics because every child is born pure,

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441:

Narrated Abu Huraira :

Allah's Apostle said, "Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verses: "The pure Allah's Islamic nature (true faith of Islam) (i.e. worshipping none but Allah) with which He has created human beings. No change let there be in the religion of Allah (i.e. joining none in worship with Allah). That is the straight religion (Islam) but most of men know, not." (30.30)

is this not proof enough?


is every sexual deviation a product of genetics?
no

we are human beings not animals we practise self restraint.

[Daoud]

"What! Do you come to the males from among the creatures.
And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives. Nay - you are a people exceeding limits!" - Surah 26 - Verses 165 - 166

"What! Do you approach men lustfully rather than women. Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly!" - Surah 27 - Verse 55

"Most surely you come unto males in lust rather than females. Nay, you are a wanton people." - Surah 7 - Verse 81

Brother please, don't act ignorantly on this topic. Research the matter, ask the scholars, read the books. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge that you are correct.

so you can't provide the arabic term I asked for

the fact is there is no term in the Qu'ran that translates as 'homosexual' which is what you claimed Allah said - brother, please don't act ignorantly on this subject. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge you are correct.

[ummbilal]

can we have the arabic for 'homosexuality is wrong' please?

with verse references

In fact let's not waste time as you won't be able to find it so we can in fact conclude that you are ascribing to Allah something that He didn't say, a very great sin indeed

salaam alakum brother

please be wary of saying things without proof or knowlage, so as to misguide the muslims.

inshaallah when you make a claim back it with hadith and quran or your source or state that it is your opinion,

jazakallah khair.

i tried to pm you this message but your inbox is full, i guess everyone else had the same idea, mashallah

a sign of the last day will be men speaking on Quran and deen when they have no knowlage,

Allah guide us all

[czgibson]

Greetings Ummbilal,

What an interesting post.

czgibson, I understand you are playing devils advocate,

Maybe. I'm just putting the point of view that seems most rational to me. If that involves the devil, well, I wouldn't know about that.

homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural and against the laws of God.

What do you mean by unnatural? There are about 450 species of animal that have gay sex too - are they unnatural?

It's "against the laws of God". This seems to be your best argument. It's written, so we must believe it.

a man who feels peopdophilic tendances towards teenage boys acts on them, do you judge him the same as a homosexual?

I do not.

he cant help these feelings right?

What, his desire to abuse children? Says who?

he wont concieve a child either?
if he convinces the young boy he wants to do this too does that make it ok???

A child can't give consent.

my point is is you believe homosexuality is a genetic condition then you must also believe a peopdophile is a victim of genetics gone wrong?

Why must I believe this? Are you aware of the leap of logic you've just made there?

what about transsexuals, Did God make a mistake and great them a male body when they are indeed female, as they claim??

I don't think god has anything to do with it.

AUTHU BILAHI

That sounds interesting. Is there a translation?

ancient greece held homosexuality as sacred?

Ancient Greek religion did, yes.

they didnt believe in modesty as we do in islam and encouraged men to look upon other naked men in wrestling and sports, to muslims and other faiths this is abhorrant, discusting.

They didn't so much encourage it, they just didn't see anything wrong with it. It was normal to have naked athletes at the Olympic Games.

up until 50 or so years ago being a homosexual was a criminal offence in Uk, now its commen place, did all these homosexuals exist 50 years ago or are young men being confused by the constant social conditioning they are subjected to??

Homosexuals have existed throughout history. They have not been created recently by some sort of media conspiracy. In fact, one of the very first poets in Western history was Sappho of Lesbos, whose island gave us the word lesbian. In Ancient Greece, homosexuality among adult males was the norm. Heterosexual sex was seen as purely functional, for reproduction and nothing else.

turn on childrens tv and they have homosexuals presenting, MTV is full of homosexuality george micheal etc..

Maybe, but I think you're being a bit paranoid there. What a savage critique of children's TV!

its seen as hip to be homosexual.

Really?

as an athest i dont really expect you to understand when i say no men were homosexual until the people of Lot as and Allah destroyed them.

this is reason enough for me to know homosexuality is wrong,

OK, there were homosexuals in Lot, and Allah destroyed them. There have been homosexuals in lots of other places since then; has Allah been destroying them too?

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

inshaallah Allah will guide you

Allah has yet to make contact, I'm afraid.

Peace

[azim]

so you can't provide the arabic term I asked for

the fact is there is no term in the Qu'ran that translates as 'homosexual' which is what you claimed Allah said - brother, please don't act ignorantly on this subject. Do not make claims like these without full knowledge you are correct.

Bro, English is a completely different language then Arabic. The word homosexual is an English coinage and only entered the vocabulary recently.

I have shown you evidence for my views, where is the evidence for yours?

[Daoud]

who are al-Tabi'in ghayr ulu al-Irbat min al-Rijal? 24-31

[azim]

Quote:
its seen as hip to be homosexual.


Really?

There is an absurd amount of homosexuals and bisexuals at my college, most of whom are straight as can be. A conversation one my classes last year went something like this?

Teacher: They believed Achilles and Patricles had a sexual relationship...

Pupil1: HA HA! FAG!

Pupil2: Didnt you say you were gay?

Pupil1: ....*prolonged silence*....

[Daoud]

[QUOTE=azim]Bro, English is a completely different language then Arabic. The word homosexual is an English coinage and only entered the vocabulary recently.

QUOTE]

so how come you said it was in the Qu'ran?

[czgibson]

Hello Azim,

There is an absurd amount of homosexuals and bisexuals at my college, most of whom are straight as can be.

What do you mean by straight here?! Or do you mean most of your college are straight?

Teacher: They believed Achilles and Patricles had a sexual relationship...

They certainly did. See Homer's Iliad or Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida for details.

There are always a few gay people hanging around. I don't think they're going to take over the world or anything though.

Peace

[azim]

Hello Azim,


What do you mean by straight here?! Or do you mean most of your college are straight?



They certainly did. See Homer's Iliad or Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida for details.

There are always a few gay people hanging around. I don't think they're going to take over the world or anything though.

Peace

Sorry I wasnt very clear. My point was that many of the people who claim to be gay in my college, are actually heterosexual - its just something of a fashion trend at the moment to be homosexual since its become a sub-culture with its own distinctive style of dress and speech etc...

The second example was something that happened in class. Pupil1 was one of the people who claimed to be gay, but immaturely, he made a joke at Achillies and Patriclus being gay and obviously, claiming to be gay, he had just caught himself out.

[Daoud]

please be wary of saying things without proof or knowlage, so as to misguide the muslims.

inshaallah when you make a claim back it with hadith and quran or your source or state that it is your opinion,

I think these comments should be addressed to brother Azim

[azim]

so how come you said it was in the Qu'ran?

The words I said are not in the Quran, but the MEANING of the words I said ARE IN THE QURAN.

On your so called 'evidence', you never presented evidence. You presented a line out of context. Bring me the evidence instead of quoting since sentences.

Thirdly, have you ever heard the saying 'Dont argue with fools. They drag you down to their level and beat you by experience'. I feel as if I'm arguing with a fool, so until you make an informed, cohesive, valid post, I am going to discontinue debating with you.

[Desai]

We are certainly aware that the sin of homosexuality is haraam. But do we know how serious this crime is and just how despicable it is in the sight of Allah? Just imagine that when it is against the very nature of man, what is the position of the person who indulges in it! Is such a person unaware that Allah in all his might and power is watching him while he indulges in this
haraam act? Is he not aware that Allah has the power to send down upon him a swift and severe punishment or even seize him while he is involved in it?!!! What will his position be when he appears before his Sustainer on the Day of Qiyaamah?

Our life in this world is also a test from Allah. He has placed us in this world and created certain desires within different type of people. But he has not made this world the place for the fulfillment of our desires. Here, we must fill our hearts with the fear of Allah and suppress our own desires and give
priority to the wishes and orders of Allah over our own desires. In return for this our Allah has promised to reward us with Jannah the everlasting place of
indescribable beauty and happiness that He has reserved for us in the
akhirah.

and Allah knows best

[Daoud]

The words I said are not in the Quran, but the MEANING of the words I said ARE IN THE QURAN.

On your so called 'evidence', you never presented evidence. You presented a line out of context. Bring me the evidence instead of quoting since sentences.

Thirdly, have you ever heard the saying 'Dont argue with fools. They drag you down to their level and beat you by experience'. I feel as if I'm arguing with a fool, so until you make an informed, cohesive, valid post, I am going to discontinue debating with you.

okay, now we're getting somewhere, you've admitted that you claimed something was in the Qu'ran when in fact it wasn't but you still haven't answered my question so I'll provide the translation for you, maybe that will help things along a bit

Surah-al-Nur 31

And tell believing women that they should lower their gaze, guard their private parts, and not flaunt their charms beyond what it is acceptable to reveal: they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, theirn brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them that have no need of women, or children who are not yet aware of women's nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms. Believers, all of you, turn to God so that you may prosper.

[azim]

okay, now we're getting somewhere, you've admitted that you claimed something was in the Qu'ran when in fact it wasn't but you still haven't answered my question so I'll provide the translation for you, maybe that will help things along a bit

Surah-al-Nur 31

And tell believing women that they should lower their gaze, guard their private parts, and not flaunt their charms beyond what it is acceptable to reveal: they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, theirn brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them that have no need of women, or children who are not yet aware of women's nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms. Believers, all of you, turn to God so that you may prosper.

I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG


Now, 'such men that attend them that have no need of women' has a few translations. (If your going to post in arabic, use arabic script rather than transliteration)

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).

Now what about the lines I've shown you, and the story of Sodom, and the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of Allah shakes"

"Kill the one doing it an kill the one it has been done to"

By the way, do you happen to be in any way associated with the Al-Fatihah organisation?

[ummbilal]

It's "against the laws of God". This seems to be your best argument. It's written, so we must believe it.


yes, its called faith, something sadly you lack.








Maybe, but I think you're being a bit paranoid there. What a savage critique of children's TV!

no i dont think i am being paranoid at all, i have children, i've seen the change in childrens tv over the past 10 years, i've also studied sociology and this is called socially conditioning, you have been conditioned to think homosexuality is ok, its not, i used to think like you. then Allhumdulilah
Allah made contact, as you put it.

i wonder why do u think u spend so much time on an islamic forum?

this is from Allah so that when u stand before Him to be judged you will say, yes they told me to worship you but i chose not to, and Allah knows best.



Really?

your tone is one of arrogence, as though i am a fool, religion is opium of the masses, you believe no doubt.




OK, there were homosexuals in Lot, and Allah destroyed them. There have been homosexuals in lots of other places since then; has Allah been destroying them too?

Allahu alam

Allah knows best, Allah told us about the people of Lot as as a warning, what has to happen before people will believe??

the sun will raise from the west and the earth will shake and again Allah knows best.

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

??

you mean scientists?

I'd rather go with my Creator, Allah

oh and Authu Bilahi
means
I seek refuge in Allah



Allah has yet to make contact, I'm afraid.

i think you'll find Allah is closer to u than your juggular vein.

Peace[/QUOTE]:thumbs_up

[Daoud]

I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG

well I've just proved to you that it doesn't, there's no point doing it again

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).

they can be those things but who knows what 'lacking vigour' might mean, given the fact, as we've already seen, there is actually no word in the Qu'ran for 'homosexual'?

the story of Sodom:

the people of Lut were not homosexual, they were heterosexual men who practiced male rape on travellers as a means of humiliating and dishonouring them

hadith: there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

[czgibson]

Hello Ummbilal,

yes, its called faith, something sadly you lack.

You've submitted to an imaginary authority whose pronouncements you glean from a 1400 year-old text. I prefer to accept truth on a more rational basis.

no i dont think i am being paranoid at all, i have children, i've seen the change in childrens tv over the past 10 years, i've also studied sociology and this is called socially conditioning, you have been conditioned to think homosexuality is ok, its not

Who's to say it's not you who've been socially conditioned by your religion?

You still haven't mentioned why it's not OK.

Allah made contact, as you put it.

Everyone understands that Allah forbids homosexuality; nobody is able to say why.

i wonder why do u think u spend so much time on an islamic forum?

Because I think it's important to learn about other cultures. I think if more Westerners did what I'm doing there wouldn't be so much paranoia about Islam.

your tone is one of arrogence, as though i am a fool, religion is opium of the masses, you believe no doubt.

Yes, religion is the opium of the masses, there's no question about that. I don't think you're a fool though - it's just if you present an assertion with no real evidence to back it up I'm likely to be sceptical.

Allah knows best, Allah told us about the people of Lot as as a warning, what has to happen before people will believe??

Allah should do something that could only be attributed to an omnipotent being. That would clear any doubts. It would also make sense if he was consistent in his punishments. If he destroys one group of gay people, then leaves many other gay people alone, is it any wonder people haven't got the message?

the sun will raise from the west and the earth will shake and again Allah knows best.

Do you believe this?

Or will you rely on the argument from authority?

The argument from authority is the logical principle you have been using all along in this little discussion. "It's written in the Qur'an, so we must believe it." "Allah says X, therefore we must believe it." Whenever you make an argument from authority, the quality or trustworthiness of that authority has to be determined; if it's ultimately a matter of faith or opinion, then the argument will only convince a believer.

Believing something because it's said by scientists is a very different matter, as they usually have experimental data to back up what they're saying.

i think you'll find Allah is closer to u than your juggular vein.

It would certainly be a nice surprise. I'd certainly like to believe in Allah - it would be very comforting, I think. However, I don't have a single shred of a reason for doing so.

Peace

[minaz]

However, I don't have a single shred of a reason for doing so.

Inshaallah one day this will change, I for one know you like to learn about the true religion on this forum - which is good. However, maybe first hand accounts outside the "cyber world" may hit home better (through talking to muslims or visiting the mosque). Anywho continue posting your questions and sometimes you get good answers (as seen in your famous debates with Ansar!) but sometimes reaction from some members may not be in the same nature as Ansar's - this is one of the limitations of learning Islam online.

I'd be interested to see your book of what you think are smart quotes then

Yeh I call it the Qu'ran - give it a go sometime top notch stuff

[QUOTE]there are loads of situations where men who are not gay have sex with each other QUOTE]
They aint called gay they're called bisexual

they only do it in those situations and when they have access to women again they go back to sex with women

Lol they need to get their priorities right :p

[czgibson]

Hi Minaz,

Thanks for your kind words.

Inshaallah one day this will change, I for one know you like to learn about the true religion on this forum - which is good. However, maybe first hand accounts outside the "cyber world" may hit home better (through talking to muslims or visiting the mosque). Anywho continue posting your questions and sometimes you get good answers (as seen in your famous debates with Ansar!) but sometimes reaction from some members may not be in the same nature as Ansar's - this is one of the limitations of learning Islam online.

It was through knowing and discussing with Muslims that I got the curiosity to come onto a board like this. My best friend at University was a Muslim named Muhammad who used to enjoy debates; and in my job as an English language teacher I had several classes of Muslim guys from Saudi, UAE, Turkey, Bangladesh and so on.

I'm not put off by answers that don't have Ansar's (and others') calm, measured tone - it's to be expected, coming here as an atheist. I've learned a lot here - long may it continue!

Peace

[Daoud]

Quote:
Originally Posted by azim
I still claim the Quran says that homosexuality is wrong. I will always claim that because the Quran is unchangable and so my comment will always hold true. Just to make my point clear: -


THE QURAN SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG



well I've just proved to you that it doesn't, there's no point doing it again


Quote:
Originally Posted by azim

Moshin Khan: 'old male servants who lack vigour'
Yusuf Ali: 'male servants free of physical needs'
M. Pickthal: 'male servants who lack vigour'

So those have no need of women can be old men or eunuchs (who were more common in the past and also usually at careers as servants).



they can be those things but who knows what 'lacking vigour' might mean, given the fact, as we've already seen, there is actually no word in the Qu'ran for 'homosexual'?

the story of Sodom:

the people of Lut were not homosexual, they were heterosexual men who practiced male rape on travellers as a means of humiliating and dishonouring them

hadith: there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

I seem to be having trouble with this thread, I can't seem to open the last few pages properly so for the sake of continuity I've put this one up again in hopes of an intelligent response

[baby_muslimah15]

I'd be interested to see your book of what you think are smart quotes then, not that you were even quoting me

there are loads of situations where men who are not gay have sex with each other - prison, armed forces etc - they only do it in those situations and when they have access to women again they go back to sex with women

I dont care thats still nasty, and once you do that I consider you GAY cuz thats know excuase to have sex with men....No 1 told you 2 join those things, but prison its not a choice, but still you should still try and contron yo self cuz once you come out your known 4 having sex with men, And thats just plain nasty(same thing 4 women as well) Thats just my opinion!!!!......And I hope b4 they go back to women I hope they get checked for STDs.......Sorry if I went 2 far....Salaamz

BTW not pointing at you excatally(just ppl who do that)

[Daoud]

I dont care thats still nasty, and once you do that I consider you GAY cuz thats know excuase to have sex with men....)

a person that can have sex with men and women is not gay, a gay person has no sexual interest in the other gender

[razzzy101]

Homosexuality is greatly hated in islam and they will be cursed liked the people of the past. any type of sex witht he same sex is considered homosexuality, and also one should abstain from zina,(fornification) as this is a great sin aswel.

[Daoud]

Homosexuality is greatly hated in islam .

there is no evidence that the Prophet,saws, ever specified same-sex activity as a crime or punished anyone for it. Hadith that claim this do not come from reliable lines of transmission

[razzzy101]

Actually i study in a Islmaic Academy, and homosexuality is strictly forbdden in Islam, and its not a Hadith its a Quranic Ayah that mentions this. Please research before you swing false accusations.

[Daoud]

Actually i study in a Islmaic Academy, and homosexuality is strictly forbdden in Islam, and its not a Hadith its a Quranic Ayah that mentions this. Please research before you swing false accusations.

well we've been through this further up the thread, there is no statement in the Qu'ran that directly prohibits homosexuality and there is no evidence that the Prophet, saws, did either

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

well that's a personal question and as such outside the scope of this discussion

:sl:

Wel then, why do you seem to support them so much? I believe the Quran doesnt specifically use the word "homosexuality", but it does use the technical term "sodomy" in referance to the people of the Prophet Lut. Surah Qamar:

33. The people of Lout (Lot) belied the warnings.

34. Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Lout (Lot), whom We saved in last hour of the night,

35. As a Favour from Us, thus do We reward him who gives thanks (by obeying Us).

36. And he [Lout (Lot)] indeed had warned them of Our Grasp, but they did doubt the warnings!

37. And they indeed sought to shame his guest (by asking to commit sodomy with them). So We blinded their eyes, "Then taste you My Torment and My Warnings."

38. And verily, an abiding torment seized them early in the morning.

39. "Then taste you My Torment and My Warnings."

40. And indeed, We have made the Qur'ân easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

I advice that you read this in its entirety:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/homosexuality.htm

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/homo...y_sickness.htm

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/gay/knots_of_shaytan.htm


Inshallah, you will understand the true nature of that filthy lifestyle.

:w:

[root]

You're putting Islam on the same level as homosexuality. Yet, we know that homosexuality has disatrous medical consequences, which you weren't able to deny. Thus, it is rightly condemned as an evil sin

I don't claim Islam is bad and never have. However, could you refute the Islamic denial of polio vaccinations because the senior Muslim clerics suspected it was a western plot to sterilise the women and lead directly to an outbreak and rise in polio cases....... Does this not also carry "Medical Consequences"

If you can't then why claim you can!!!!!

Regards

Root

[Daoud]

And they indeed sought to shame his guest (by asking to commit sodomy with them).

that's the point: scholars suggest that the people of Lot were not homosexual but used male rape as a means of dishonouring travellers and reducing their status, they also had sexual relations with women

a 'man who has no need of women' is something different ie homosexual the whole time and incapable of sex with a woman. The Qu'ran implies the existence of these people and does not suggest it is a crime or that it should be punished and as I've said above there is no reliable evidence that the Prophet(saws) acted against homosexuality in his lifetime

[minaz]

The Qu'ran implies the existence of these people and does not suggest it is a crime or that it should be punished

Allah just destroyed the place (sodom)

[czgibson]

Greetings Daoud,

a 'man who has no need of women' is something different ie homosexual the whole time and incapable of sex with a woman.

Surely that description could also apply to a man who didn't have sex at all, i.e. someone who was asexual?

Peace

[Muezzin]

Surely that description could also apply to a man who didn't have sex at all, i.e. someone who was asexual?

What, like a eunuch?

Man, they're weird. :p

[Daoud]

Greetings Daoud,


Surely that description could also apply to a man who didn't have sex at all, i.e. someone who was asexual?

Peace

hi cz

sure it could do but how many men are really asexual? all I'm saying is it could refer to gays who despite most Muslims claiming they don't exist, must have been around at the time of the Prophet(saws) in Makkah and Medina

[Sister_Ayesha]

:sl:

a 'man who has no need of women' is something different ie homosexual the whole time and incapable of sex with a woman.

The way you write it here could mean that priest, monks, nuns, and anyone who takes a vow in the Christian faith to be devote to god and refrain from the opposite sex would be homosexual.

:w:

[Safa]

:sl:

Originally Posted by Daoud
a 'man who has no need of women'

Well, the Quran does imply that a man must be with a woman,

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!” (27: 55).

Why go against what Allah has prescribed, even if the Prophet (pbuh) never mentioned anything about homosexuality, its not clearly implied that men can have men as partners.


:w:

[Daoud]

:sl:



The way you write it here could mean that priest, monks, nuns, and anyone who takes a vow in the Christian faith to be devote to god and refrain from the opposite sex would be homosexual.

:w:

well, that's not what I mean, especially as the people the Qu'ran must be referring to would not have been priests or monks or anything like that, they would have been living as part of society

although since you mention it I would guess that there is a fairly high proportion of gay people in monasteries and convents etc, whether they are practicing or not is another matter

[azim]

Daoud, its obvious your not here for a logicial debate. You took one term 'men who have no need of women' and twisted it to apply to homosexuals. There are, like I said, old men, eunuchs, hemaphrodites, as others have mentioned, those who have taken a vow of celibacy. That one line is being used against several lines in the Quran which condemn homosexuality and sodomy. Your argument is flawed and your view is incorrect. Think logically. Work it out for yourself. Learn that often it is our own perceptions and thoughts which are wrong, view yourself through the eyes of your creator using the Quran. Dont come to your own conclusion based on your nufs (desires).

[minaz]

If one doesn't want to accept that Islam doesn't allow homosexuality in it's followers then I'm glad I don't adopt the same attitude. If an individual decides they like the same sex then so be it - he/she is a non-believer (whether they call themselves a muslim or not)

[Far7an]

Assalamu alaikum minaz

I love you akhee and I agree with you, but I have to disagree on one thing

he/she is a non-believer (whether they call themselves a muslim or not)

Commiting an act of kufr, does not make them a kaffir. We have to be very careful when we make takfeer. Remember Allah will question us, about who we made takfeer of, not who we did'nt make takfeer of.

[Daoud]

. Your argument is flawed and your view is incorrect. Think logically. Work it out for yourself. .

well nobody's given me a proper argument against what I'm saying, not one that would make sense to an independent observer, all there's been is denial

[minaz]

I see what you are saying brother Far7an, yeh I should of elaborated a wee bit on that statement. What i was trying to say is that, having islam as your religion whilst exercising homosexual acts doesn't make you a true muslim. As ever Allah all mighty knows best and will have the final say, but at the end of the day it's an unlawful act - it's never too late to repent though.

well nobody's given me a proper argument

People have posted such things as the stroy of Lut (a.s.) and the area of Sodom. In a nutshell the locals commited evil acts such as criminality and our favourite topic of the day here on The LI "homosexuality". Lut (a.s.) called them to turn away from such sinful acts, but they refused and Allah destroyed the place. If the area was full of law abiding citizens who had moral vlaues would it of been destroyed? What does this tell us about ppl who exercise such acts?
At the end of the day it's down to one self in what they want to beleive in and what they don't

[Daoud]

People have posted such things as the stroy of Lut (a.s.) and the area of Sodom. In a nutshell the locals commited evil acts such as criminality and our favourite topic of the day here on The LI "homosexuality". Lut (a.s.) called them to turn away from such sinful acts, but they refused and Allah destroyed the place. If the area was full of law abiding citizens who had moral vlaues would it of been destroyed? What does this tell us about ppl who exercise such acts?
At the end of the day it's down to one self in what they want to beleive in and what they don't

well I'm not going to go through it again having been through it twice already, I can only assume that you're not actually reading the posts in the thread

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I have a little bit of catching up to do here.

Greetings Callum,

Do you agree with someone marrying their parents, so long as there is consent? Most people argue against this by pointing out the genetic diseases that could result from this. But then, using your point, someone could respond by saying that they have other ways to 'pleasure' eachother.

Ansar, with all due respect, this is a silly example. Incest could cause the conception of a child; homosexuality could not. This makes it a very different situation.

No, actually I think the example is on-target. They have other ways of pleasuring eachother without necessarily reaching intercourse. What if they use birth control? The final point is that for both these kind of people and gays, there could potentially be serious medical consequences. Gayse ngaging in 'pleasuring' eachother could fall into those dangerous practices in the 'heat of the moment'.

What is it about homosexuality that is so wrong?

Homosexuality - including both gays and lesbians - is seen as a perversion of the natural order which God has instituted for humanity. It is in conflict with the nature of humanity, as a creation that procreates. Hence, it is wrong from a natural perspective. Homosexuality entails many dangerous practices that have disastrous medical consequences. Hence, it is wrong from a medical perspective. Homosexuality negates the basic block of society, a family, thus it demolishes social order at the grass roots level, as children are no longer raised with the compassion of a mother and guardianship of a father. Homosexuals consume from society yet contribute nothing in return. Hence, it is wrong from a societal perspective.

Now I know you made a point about 'animals doing it' somehwere in the thread in response to it being unnatural, I just can't find your statement. Anyway, my respone would be that, since when are animals practices the source for what is natural for human beings? I should hope that everyone would regard it as unnatural if a human female should happen to eat her mate during copulation, yet this is exactly what spiders do!

Do you mean: why is it widely known, or why is it seen as bigotry?

I mean why is it seen as bigotry? Bigotry is defined in the Oxford American English Dictionary as intolerance and prejudice towards the views and opinions of others - that could apply just as well to your posts as mine!

And I'm not prejudiced towards homosexuals. As I mentioned before:

We think less of one's moral character if they are unable to control their desires. Homosexuality does not mean that someone is unable to control their desires, it means that they have different desires to cope with. So, if someone has homoseuxal tendencies, but they restrain themselves and turn away from evil and towards God, I would not think less of them, on the contrary I would admire their moral character and piety.

So I'm puzzled how the above view would be seen as bigoted.

You've submitted to an imaginary authority whose pronouncements you glean from a 1400 year-old text.

This is the second time [that I've seen] you label the beliefs of others as 'imaginary'. I'm going to ask that you kindly refrain from such comments as they contribute nothing to the discussion. Our arguments should be evidence-based. Thanks.



Hello Root,
I almost missed your post buried in the thread. :p

I don't claim Islam is bad and never have. However, could you refute the Islamic denial of polio vaccinations because the senior Muslim clerics suspected it was a western plot to sterilise the women and lead directly to an outbreak and rise in polio cases....... Does this not also carry "Medical Consequences"

What you've labeled as 'Islamic' and attributed to 'the' senior Muslim clerics' is only the opinion of a handful of people, I'm not even sure who you're referring to. Hence, its neither Islamic belief nor law.


:sl: Daoud,

being gay is no more a choice than being left or right handed or having blue eyes or brown

You're supporting the 'genetic cause' view, which you are free to do, but you must realize that amongst the scientific community there is great support for the 'environmental cause' view as well. At this stage, scientists simply don't know.

But we must also realize that from an Islamic perspective, both views are inconsequential to the Islamic law. Even if its genetic, then its just like all the other conditions that people are born with and must patiently bear, restraining their desires.

to suggest otherwise is to say that Allah made a mistake with His creation

To suggest that its an environmental factor or a choice is to attribute a mistake to Allah? How so?

who are al-Tabi'in ghayr ulu al-Irbat min al-Rijal? 24-31

This refers to those people who have no inclination towards women such as the mentally disabled or asexual. As mentioned in Ma'ariful Qur'an:

(or males having no [sexual] urge).
Sayyidna Ibn Abbas rd has explained that, here those confused and deranged type of persons are meant who have no liking and inclination toward women (Ibn Kathir). The same explanation has been put forward by Ibn Jarir quoting Abu Abdullah, Ibn Jubair, Ibn Atiyyah etc. (Shafi, vol. 6)

It does not include homosexuals as they have been described in the following verses of the Qur'an:
27:54-56. And (remember) Lout (Lot)! When he said to his people . Do you commit Al Fâhishah (sexual indecency) while you watch?"
"Do you approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, but you are a people who behave senselessly."
There was no other answer given by his people except that they said: "Drive out the family of Lout (Lot) from your city. Verily, these are men who want to be clean and pure!"

Here the people of Lot have been condemned for no other sin other than the fact that they approached men in their lusts, i.e. homosexuality. This is the apparent meaning of the verse, and there is no indication that they were condemned because of raping male travlers as you claim.

scholars suggest that the people of Lot were not homosexual but used male rape as a means of dishonouring travellers and reducing their status, they also had sexual relations with women

Who are these anonymous 'scholars' you quote? This interpretation is unacceptablle as it contradicts the understanding of the earliest Muslim generations who learnt from the Prophet saws.

all I'm saying is it could refer to gays who despite most Muslims claiming they don't exist

Now you've changed your claim that the verse 24:31 does refer to homosexuals, to saying that it could refer to homosexuals, which is a very weak form of evidence upon which to build an argument that its permissable. Secondly, no Muslim has claimed that homosexuals don't exist.

I hope this clarifies.

Regards.

[Muhammad]

Greetings Callum!

While I was reading through this thread, I couldn't help but feel inclined to comment on some of your statements.

You've submitted to an imaginary authority whose pronouncements you glean from a 1400 year-old text. I prefer to accept truth on a more rational basis.

Indeed it is a 1400 year-old text, in the sense of how long it's been on earth, yet you have omitted a very important word: it's a 1400 year-old unchanged text, and it's never been outdated or incompatible during any stage in time since its revelation. Not only are there miracles in its meanings and statements, but also in its eloquence and undefeatable challenges. Is it really so irrational to accept truth from such an undeniably miraculous book?

Who's to say it's not you who've been socially conditioned by your religion?

I think there is a difference between social conditioning and religious education. With the former, it tends to be in one's face quite often: billboards, tv, radio, buses, and all the trends resulting from such things etc. whereas religion does not 'enforce' its teachings in such a manner. If one disagrees with religion, they do not have to struggle to avoid indecency and keep turning their face away due to its constant ambush from every corner.

Everyone understands that Allah forbids homosexuality; nobody is able to say why.

The very fact that Allaah forbids something is ample reason to abide by it. Explanations can be offered, rather like the responses to your question regarding why pork is forbidden, yet ultimately the wisdom and knowledge behind such laws is with Allaah in full, hence it is sufficient for us to acknowledge this and obey without question since we accept our limited understanding of such issues.

[17.85] ... and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Yes, religion is the opium of the masses, there's no question about that. I don't think you're a fool though - it's just if you present an assertion with no real evidence to back it up I'm likely to be sceptical.

I don't quite understand the term: 'opium of the masses', so if you could just explain. Perhaps if you could clarify the type of evidence you are looking for, because there is evidence from religion, from logic and from science against Homosexuality. Seeing as you don't believe in Islam, the religious evidences aren't of as much value to you.

OK, there were homosexuals in Lot, and Allah destroyed them. There have been homosexuals in lots of other places since then; has Allah been destroying them too?

Allah should do something that could only be attributed to an omnipotent being. That would clear any doubts. It would also make sense if he was consistent in his punishments. If he destroys one group of gay people, then leaves many other gay people alone, is it any wonder people haven't got the message?

Perhaps Allaah has already answered your query:

[3.178] And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement.

[10.11] And if Allah should hasten the evil to men as they desire the hastening on of good, their doom should certainly have been decreed for them; but We leave those alone who hope not for Our meeting in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

[13.6] And they ask you to hasten on the evil before the good, and indeed there have been exemplary punishments before them; and most surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness to people, notwithstanding their injustice; and most surely your Lord is severe in requiting (evil).

[14.42] And do not think Allah to be heedless of what the unjust do; He only respites them to a day on which the eyes shall be fixedly open,

[15.4] And never did We destroy a town but it had a term made known.
[15.5] No people can hasten on their doom nor can they postpone (it).

[16.61] And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time).

[17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

The argument from authority is the logical principle you have been using all along in this little discussion. "It's written in the Qur'an, so we must believe it." "Allah says X, therefore we must believe it." Whenever you make an argument from authority, the quality or trustworthiness of that authority has to be determined; if it's ultimately a matter of faith or opinion, then the argument will only convince a believer.

This is similar to the other statement of yours,

Allah should do something that could only be attributed to an omnipotent being. That would clear any doubts.

And this can be explained using many verses of the Qur'an, although I do not wish to overwhelm the discussion with too many Qur'anic verses. But if I just put it short: what exactly do you want Allaah to do?

[13.1] Alif Lam Mim Ra. These are the verses of the Book; and that which is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe.
[13.2] Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.
[13.3] And He it is Who spread the earth and made in it firm mountains and rivers, and of all fruits He has made in it two kinds; He makes the night cover the day; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
[13.4] And in the earth there are tracts side by side and gardens of grapes and corn and palm trees having one root and (others) having distinct roots-- they are watered with one water, and We make some of them excel others in fruit; most surely there are signs in this for a people who understand.

Can we not see from the above that only Allaah could do such things? Of course your being an atheist will not be inclined to accept this fact, as has been discussed before, yet I am merely pointing out that the Qur'an brings to light countless examples of Allaah's Might and Power, and that people of reasoning are those that accept and acknowledge them.

The disbelievers at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also asked for miracles to prove the existence of Allaah, yet there are many verses which explain that their requests been fulfilled, they would still have not believed.

Believing something because it's said by scientists is a very different matter, as they usually have experimental data to back up what they're saying.

But is not the case that often scientists do not have hard evidence to support their claims? They often make assumptions, guesses - perhaps educated ones, yet just because they are scientists does not make them infallible. In our current discussion, it does not take a leap of faith to accept that being gay is detrimental to one's health, or that it is not a natural way of living. Allaah created us with a natural sense of reasoning, and it is this which prevents homosexuals fitting in to society as though they are to be admired for their actions. Your point about argument of authority can be clarified by saying that we already have determined the "quality" and "trustworthiness" of the authority, such as the perfect nature of the Qur'an as mentioned before.

We may as well say that to believe in a scientist, you must be interested in science, and to believe a politician, you must be into politics, if to believe in religion requires you to be a believer, since "opinions" and 'faith" is not exclusive to religion.

It would certainly be a nice surprise. I'd certainly like to believe in Allah - it would be very comforting, I think. However, I don't have a single shred of a reason for doing so.

Well after reading this post, as well as the many hundreds of others on this forum, I hope that now you do :)

Peace

[Daoud]

I realise most muslims by choice have as little to do with gay people as possible and I think this is part of the problem - in my life I've known quite a few people who were gay and as far as they're concerned they have no choice, it's not a 'lifestyle' they adopt (what possible reason could there be for adopting such a lifestyle given the difficulties that come with it?), it's the way they were born, and I for one believe them but if you don't know gay people as individuals you can never get to understand their situation and can only go by second-hand accounts and pre-conceived ideas

so the point is, if that's the way they were born, why did Allah make them that way? and what harm do they do? ( and please don't mention HIV/AIDS) there seems to be some notion that they will lead others into the same lifestyle but this is just nonsense - if you are not gay then you're not suddenly going to start having sex with the same gender just because your friend does, you either want to do it or you don't. In every society there is a small proportion of people who are gay and that proportion is always going to stay the same, it's not going to get any bigger. Society is not going to get taken over by gays. If there seem to be more gay people around these days it's purely because they feel more able to be open about it than they used to be, not because there are actually more gays and as far as I can see that proportion of gay people would have been around at the time of the Prophet(saws) and as I said before, as I understand it there is no evidence that he punished them for it, the punishments for homosexuality in Islam seem to start after his lifetime.

if you want some references to the scholars I've mentioned, (meaning academics rather than Muslim jurists)

Everett Rowson, 'The Effeminates of Early Medina' in Que(e)rying Religion ed. G.Comstock and Henking (New York:Continuum, 1997)

Stephen O.Murray and Will Roscoe, Islamic Homosexualities; Culture, History and Literature (New York: New York University Press, 1997)

Amreen Jamel, 'The Story of Lut and the Qu'ran's Perception of the Morality of Same Sex Sexuality' (not sure of the publisher)

Najman Yasin, Islam and Sex in the First Century Hijri (Beirut: dar al-Attiya li'l Nashr, 1997)

and plenty more but I'm sure that's enough to be going on with

[baby_muslimah15]

Salaamz okay bro Daoud(this topic might have died down a lil but here is somthin you should read) hope this really helps!!!!

Homosexuality is wrong, a sin, in Islam. Of that there really can be no dispute. See the excellent articles already on-line cited at the end of this article for the citations from the Qur'an. The point of this article is to try to put this into some reasonable perspective.

Sex outside of marriage is forbidden. It does not matter whether it is fornication, adultery, bestiality, pederasty or homosexuality. Many homosexuals claim they were born that way, they can't help being homosexual. The truth is that man has an urge for sexual gratification. As rationalizing (more than rational) beings, people will always try to find a justification for any activity which they find enjoyable. As to the claim by some homosexuals that it is genetic, this has been decisively disproven. Studies have shown that children of homosexuals are no more likely to be homosexual than any other children. If it were hereditary, many more of them would be homosexual. In our society, homosexuality frequently seems to result from a failed male role model, a father who is abusive or grossly negligent. Bestiality and pederasty are certainly natural as well. Every society has men who use children sexually. Everywhere sheep or goats are kept, they are used for sex. So the argument that homosexuality is natural or inborn has little persuasive power for Muslims.

This might have already been posted dunno, If is has sorry 4 postin it again....Salaams

[Daoud]

As to the claim by some homosexuals that it is genetic, this has been decisively disproven.

the worldwide reference source of authority on mental disorders is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, vol IV

this is used by all health authorities, governments, university research departments etc and is where you will find the most up to date thinking on mental illnesses and disorders - it gives definitions and diagnoses for all major and minor mental illnesses and disorders such as schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, autism and so on

homosexuality used to be included in this Manual but some years ago was removed ie there is no recognised international body in the world of any status or repute that now believes homosexuality is a disorder or disease of any kind

[hoping4jannah]

Assalam alaikum all

I'm glad this thread started cuz I've always wondered and been particularly wondering since the past few days on this issue.

Homosexuality is haram in Islam, that does not need proof. The vast numbers in which people are going towards 'gaydom' is proof in itself that this is not something they cannot control. It results from perversion in the people's minds and not following the natural course laid down by Allah.

But being 'gay' is different from being a transsexual. Transsexuals identify themselves as one gender trapped in the body of another. They are different from hermaphrodites as they have all the physical characteristics of the gender they are known to be. But their mental state is of the opposite gender. This is something they cannot control.

I'm sure the people from the Indian subcontinent know them to be called 'hijras'. A people shunned by society, for a cause they cannot control.

I was wondering what was the Islamic ruling for such people? I've read rasool saw ordered such people (I'm not sure is this ruling is restricted to hermaphrodites), to be kept away and isolated from the society. But is such a person allowed to behave in the manner he/she wants or is Islamically obliged to force himself/herself to behave as what they are known. (for example, in their manner of dressing etc)

It is a very pitiable and distressing situation. How is it that such a person should fulfill his/her obligations as a Muslim? What is it that is required of them as Muslims? And what should the stance of the rest of the Muslim society be towards them?

[Daoud]

those confused and deranged type of persons are meant who have no liking and inclination toward women

who exactly are these people if they're not gay? how many men do you know who are 'confused and deranged' and 'have no liking and inclination toward women' but are not gay? personally I can't think of anyone and at that time they would have had no term for 'homosexual' so it's more than likely they would have talked in this way

people are telling me to think logically etc but as far as I can see I'm the only one here who is

[czgibson]

Greetings,

There have been excellent posts by Ansar and Muhammad which I don't have time to respond to at the moment - I'll get to them when I can.

For now, I will respond to this important point:

This is the second time [that I've seen] you label the beliefs of others as 'imaginary'. I'm going to ask that you kindly refrain from such comments as they contribute nothing to the discussion. Our arguments should be evidence-based. Thanks.

You're right. Although "imaginary authority" is an aspect of the position I've been arguing from all along, I now see that this is a very crass and insensitive way of expressing it. I can only attribute it to me being "tired and emotional", and I apologise for any offence caused, particularly to Ummbilal, to whom I was replying.

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

I don't know what free-posting is

It's what you did just now. Posting comments freely that do not contribute to the discussion.

I realise most muslims by choice have as little to do with gay people as possible and I think this is part of the problem - in my life I've known quite a few people who were gay and as far as they're concerned they have no choice, it's not a 'lifestyle' they adopt (what possible reason could there be for adopting such a lifestyle given the difficulties that come with it?), it's the way they were born,

Again, as I already pointed out, there is much support from the scientific community to suggest that homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, not genetic. I don't have a problem if you want to believe that its genetic, since it makes no difference to my argument, but you have to recognize that there is another scientific view on this as well. The two views:

1. genetic- people are born either homo or hetrosexual
2. environmental - homosexuality is a condition which develops in someone due to external influence

As for this argument:

it's not a 'lifestyle' they adopt (what possible reason could there be for adopting such a lifestyle given the difficulties that come with it?)

This is called the strawman fallacy because you're attacking a position that no one holds. The view that says it is due to environmental causes does not say that people simply wake up one day and decide to be gay. Rather, it states that due to external influences in one's society, it creates the psychological condition which results in homosexuality. It is similar to a condition like Multiple Personality Disorder which is caused by extreme stress and trauma one may experience in their childhood.
So according to this view, due to external pressures or influence, homosexuality develops in a person.

so the point is, if that's the way they were born, why did Allah make them that way?

Okay, so let's suppose that view 1 (genetic) is the correct view. So why did Allah swt create them with homosexual tendencies? The answer is simple - it is a test for them. They must not act on these desires but must bear patiently and restrain themselves. Just as people born with the desire to commit fornication and must restrain their desires. Disabled people may have to restrain their desires for their whole lives and bear their condition patiently.

and what harm do they do?

Please see my previous post where I answered why homosexuality is wrong. I dislike having to repeat myself.

In every society there is a small proportion of people who are gay and that proportion is always going to stay the same, it's not going to get any bigger.

Although this is what some people hypothesize, there is no hard (statistical) evidence to support this notion.

as far as I can see that proportion of gay people would have been around at the time of the Prophet(saws) and as I said before, as I understand it there is no evidence that he punished them for it, the punishments for homosexuality in Islam seem to start after his lifetime.

This is probably the weakest evidence possible! You can't hypothesize the existence of homosexuals publically announcing their homosexuality at the time of the Prophet saws and then say that based on the fact that there are no narrations saying he punished them, homosexuality is allowed in Islam!

The Qur'an clearly condemns homosexuality in the story of Prophet Lut, which you haven't responded to. And the Islamic fundamentals with regard to laws is that the general rule is everything is permissable until evidnece comes proving otherwise, while in the field of Ibaadah (worship) and sexual relations, everything is forbidden until evidence comes proving otherwise.

And look at this clear hadith from the Prophet which contains an implicit prohibition of homosexuality:
‘Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa’id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: “A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0667)

If the Prophet saws did not order punishments on homosexuals, it would only mean that either they didn't announce their orientation publically, or they did not come in contact with the Prophet saws. And there is an authentic hadith in Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah and At-Tirmidhi which calls for the execution of any homosexuals failing to restrain their desires and engaging in anal sex (the disastrous medical consequences of which we have already discussed). And there is a narration in Bayhaqi and Tabarani which states that men who have sex with other men are amongst the four types of people who are under the anger of Allah.

Concerning the narration in Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah and At-Tirmidhi, I have read the arguments of those who try to claim that it is not authentic (these are writers who have no formal education in hadith methodology and criticism). Their argument is centered on the following points:

1. since the narration in Abu Dawud attributes the statement to Ibn Abbas, while Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi attribute the statement to the Prophet saws through Ibn Abbas, it is possible that this is only the saying of a companion
2. since Az-Zuhri and Maalik did not know of this punishment, it is likely that it wasn't authentic.
3. The hadith on this issue tend to come from the same narrators amongst the companions
4. Bukhari and Muslim did not include it in their compilations, therefore it means they didn't accept it.
5. Some early Jurists such as Imam Abu Hanifa ruled for Ta'azir (discretionary punishments) in this regard, contrary to the hadith.

The response to these points is as follows:
1. This is nothing more than an idea without basis in fact. Different people narrated from Ibn Abbas so it is entirely possible that someone recorded this narration as an opinion of Ibn Abbas whereas it was actually a hadith transmitted through Ibn Abbas rd as clarified in Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi. Secondly, the companions did not speak from their whims and wouldn't dare invent a lie, knowing the punishment is hell-fire. Hence, the statements of the companions are indicative of what they learned from the Prophet saws.
2. The fact that some people did not know of the narration, or were unable to confirm its authenticity is still not proof that the narration is false. Secondly, it is established from many sources that Imam Maalik did agree with the death penalty in this regard (see Doi, Shari'ah, pp. 242-243).
3. the ahadith on almost everything tends to come from a few narrators! Abu Hurairah, Ibn Abbas, Anas ibn Malik, and Aisha bint Abi Bakr rda narrated the vast majority of the ahadith that we have. They were regarded as the authorities on ahadith, and no one came close to them in the number that they narrated. This point demonstrates that these critics are unfamiliar with the proper tools in hadith criticism.
4. There are many many authentic ahadith that Bukhari and Muslim did not include in their compilations! These compilations were never meant to include all the authentic ahadith as Imaam Bukahari himself mentoned that there were many other authentic ahadith besides the ones they included in their compilations. This is why you will find certain hadith scholars such as Al-Haakim mention that such-and-such hadith is authentic according to the criteria of Bukhari or Muslim (see my signature), even though the two may not have included it in their compilations.
5. It is well-known that Imam Abu Hanifa had to make use of Qiyas (analogies) more than other jurists because in Iraq there were many unauthentic narrations being circulated and it was difficult to find authentic narrations, many of which never reached them. Hence, this cannot be used as evidence against a hadith's authenticity. Secondly, it is recorded that Imam Abu Hanifa did incorporate the hadith into his view and prescribed the execution for someone who perisists in homosexual practices despite being warned (this is actually the agreed upon position).

As we can see, there is no solid criticism against this hadith.

if you want some references to the scholars I've mentioned, (meaning academics rather than Muslim jurists)

Everett Rowson, 'The Effeminates of Early Medina' in Que(e)rying Religion ed. G.Comstock and Henking (New York:Continuum, 1997)

Stephen O.Murray and Will Roscoe, Islamic Homosexualities; Culture, History and Literature (New York: New York University Press, 1997)

Amreen Jamel, 'The Story of Lut and the Qu'ran's Perception of the Morality of Same Sex Sexuality' (not sure of the publisher)

Najman Yasin, Islam and Sex in the First Century Hijri (Beirut: dar al-Attiya li'l Nashr, 1997)

These are not authorities on the Qur'anic interpretation, they are just writers like yourself who have re-interpreted the Qur'an according to their whims and contrary to the apparent meaning and authentic narrations (have of these people are non-muslims!).

These are your references for your statement...

scholars suggest that the people of Lot were not homosexual but used male rape as a means of dishonouring travellers and reducing their status, they also had sexual relations with women

What?! Your only evidence for this fanciful theory comes from the imaginations of contemporary writers?!

You'll have to forgive me then if I reject this theory as a fabrication with no historical or scriptural evidence in its support...

who exactly are these people if they're not gay?

Like I said, it can include some of the mentally disabled, which are many. There are several disabilities, psychological conditions, and ailments that can remove one's inclinations, which some people refer to as sexual dysfunction disorders. This is the explanation given by Abdullah ibn Abbas, Qatadah, Zuhri and Taus. This can be caused by endocrine disorders and hormonal deficiences, the latter of which can come from age as well. it is also more likely in diabetics and those suffering from degenerative neurological disorders. Thus, as you can see, this does not refer to any unheard of group, but it is a necessary instruction regarding a real segment of the community.

how many men do you know who are 'confused and deranged' and 'have no liking and inclination toward women' but are not gay?

I know several people like this because of degenerative neurological disorders.

personally I can't think of anyone and at that time they would have had no term for 'homosexual' so it's more than likely they would have talked in this way

Not true, as you haven't dealt with the statements on the people of Lut and the authentic narrations. They would have simply said, 'men who desire men' or 'luti/qawm lut' as they said in many narrations.

On the side, I recalled an important point which strengthens something that I was saying before. In verse 26:168, Prophet Lut (as) says to the homosexuals:
“Behold, I am one of those who utterly abhor your ACTIONS!”

:w:

[Daoud]

:Again, as I already pointed out, there is much support from the scientific community to suggest that homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, not genetic.

show me, and see my post above about DSMIV

This is called the strawman fallacy because you're attacking a position that no one holds.

well I've read lots of people holding that view

Okay, so let's suppose that view 1 (genetic) is the correct view. So why did Allah swt create them with homosexual tendencies? The answer is simple - it is a test for them. They must not act on these desires but must bear patiently and restrain themselves. Just as people born with the desire to commit fornication and must restrain their desires. Disabled people may have to restrain their desires for their whole lives and bear their condition patiently.

funny that, I didn't think Islam did Original Sin, I thought we all started pure and clean by the grace of Allah. People being born with the desire to commit fornication is complete nonsense and doesn't make sense from any point of view, let alone Islam - what are you, a Buddhist or a Hindu maybe, is this some kind of Karmic thing?

Please see my previous post where I answered why homosexuality is wrong. I dislike having to repeat myself.

well I'm having to get used to it I don't see why others shouldn't

The Qur'an clearly condemns homosexuality in the story of Prophet Lut, which you haven't responded to.

It's not my theory about the story, it's historical research but I know you don't like things like that

And the Islamic fundamentals with regard to laws is that the general rule is everything is permissable until evidnece comes proving otherwise, while in the field of Ibaadah (worship) and sexual relations, everything is forbidden until evidence comes proving otherwise.

well I must admit I'd only heard the first part before but I'm newer to this than you so I'll take that on trust

'It is very difficult to suppress hadith once they gain credibility and circulate widely. This is especially so when a report reinforces the common prejudice of patriarchal societies against same-sex relationships. Hanafi jurists earlier criticised the chain of transmission of hadith like "Whomever you find doing the act of the people of Lut, kill the active and the passive participant." Al-Jassas rejects this hadith since one of it's transmitters, Amr ibn Abi Amr, is considered weak and unreliable. Similarly he rejects the proposed hadith that reads "the one practicing the act of the people of Lut, stone the one on top and the one on the bottom, stone them both together," since one of it's transmitters, 'Asim ibn Amr, is also considered weak and unreliable. Despite these critiques, the hadith continue to circulate and are frequently put to rhetorical and even legal use.'

Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle (no relation I presume?), Sexuality, Diversity and Ethics, in Progressive Muslims ed. Omid Safi, Oxford 2003

These are not authorities on the Qur'anic interpretation, they are just writers like yourself who have re-interpreted the Qur'an according to their whims and contrary to the apparent meaning and authentic narrations (have of these people are non-muslims!).

These are your references for your statement...

What?! Your only evidence for this fanciful theory comes from the imaginations of contemporary writers?!

You'll have to forgive me then if I reject this theory as a fabrication with no historical or scriptural evidence in its support...

well, no I won't actually

these are not 'contemporary writers' working from their imaginations, these are historians working from well-researched, empirical facts, subject to peer review and academic scrutiny before anything is published - and they're Muslims too for the most part!

[eyes_of_mine]

Do you know what, reading the last 3 pages of the thread I can see all have a good true point , every comment has some truth in it, even minaz's last comment there.
But I have to say that gays are in societys all around the world, and they have been for many many thousands of years just like prozzies. and of course it dos'nt make it right, and its without a doubt to us all that being homosexual is totally haram and must be dealt with by the person so he does'nt end up carrying out the act.

Now that said it is HOW we deal and help those that are gay to deal with their obviously malfunctioned minds and genetics of wanting to be homosexual.
I think we should help them , ask yourself how many gay or lesbeins do you personally know and I don't mean 'know off' I mean persoanlly know , because when you get to know them you will discover that general homosexual is not gay by choice and they felt like this from an early age ect , can you imagine what a horrible personal hell they have to live through, they NEVER want to be gay, but becuase there is more support and acceptence for them to be gay in society they don't fight it enough.

Personally I agree alot with what Daoud has written and he has come with evidence to back up his claims aswell, answar claims the genetic theory is disprooved and that society is more of a cause for straight men turning into homo's if you really believe this Answar, which by the way is the first I ever heard such a claim ! then please show your evidence from studys ect as it will be interesting to see.

Im not disprooving your theory , I can agree that in some small amount of occasions some individuals can 'try out' being gay becuase of some social happening they experienced, however the long term homo and the true homo will never be gay just becuase of society.

If most gay men are gay becuase of society, then are they putting this camp characature on ? look at how they act and walk and whilst some are not so obvious, many ARE so obvious. this is not put on they had that 'voice' since they were young. (just an example)

Again I ask you all how many gays do you personally know and thats very important you answer this question in a truthfull manner.

[Daoud]

Yo hold up there, are you accusing a respected brother on this site of being an idol worshipper.

no I was just making a point - what he said didn't seem to be Islamic

Many of the members have been kind to you and havn't called you names and i can think of a load I could call you

don't worry, I'm getting fed up of this myself I'm not going to be here much longer, you can call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better

[Silver Pearl]

Greeting ( :sl: warahmatullahi wabarakatuh)

funny that, I didn't think Islam did Original Sin, I thought we all started pure and clean by the grace of Allah. People being born with the desire to commit fornication is complete nonsense and doesn't make sense from any point of view, let alone Islam - what are you, a Buddhist or a Hindu maybe, is this some kind of Karmic thing?

I'm guessing by this statement you have fully understood the meaning of original sin. having a desire to do something does not mean you're accounted for that sin, rather the opposite. When one refrains from such an act fee sabilillah then they get a reward for it. That is how merciful and compasionate Allah (swt) is.

Also brother Ansar's idea may have been absurd but that is what you asked for. Also it is clear what faith the brother practises.

Homosexuality can't be a genetic factor, for then one of the parent would have to be homosexual or it'd be a mutation of allele which codes for that field.

If you live in an environment where homosexuals are the majority, embracing such ways is easy. Society pressures youngsters to deluding and then stating they are homosexual based solely on how other people view that person. Perhaps they may be sensitive, or less masculine, and that seems to be an excuse to label someone a homosexual. It is a known factor that if you constantly tell someone they are failure they'll start believing it, etc.

well I'm having to get used to it I don't see why others shouldn't

Tolerance is something all muslims should try and have, having tolerance to be around gay people isn't the same as being pro-homosexuality.

It's not my theory about the story, it's historical research but I know you don't like things like that

Historical data is very inaccurate, i hope you do realise that, history is recorded according to the winners and those who prosper. Who do you think wrote the history of WW2? i doubt we'd hold such anti-nazism ideologies had all the texts about the event been written by a pro-nazi.

'It is very difficult to suppress hadith once they gain credibility and circulate widely. This is especially so when a report reinforces the common prejudice of patriarchal societies against same-sex relationships. Hanafi jurists earlier criticised the chain of transmission of hadith like "Whomever you find doing the act of the people of Lut, kill the active and the passive participant." Al-Jassas rejects this hadith since one of it's transmitters, Amr ibn Abi Amr, is considered weak and unreliable. Similarly he rejects the proposed hadith that reads "the one practicing the act of the people of Lut, stone the one on top and the one on the bottom, stone them both together," since one of it's transmitters, 'Asim ibn Amr, is also considered weak and unreliable. Despite these critiques, the hadith continue to circulate and are frequently put to rhetorical and even legal use.'

Homosexuality in our era is nothing in comparison to how it was during the time of prophet Lut (pbuh) and what was their fate? At the end of the day no muslim is going to hunt down a gay person and kill them. No one has the time to consider such thing, time is precious.

Also are you a muslim?

Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle (no relation I presume?), Sexuality, Diversity and Ethics, in Progressive Muslims ed. Omid Safi, Oxford 2003

Trying to fit in society and being seen as a man of heroism by the west is more favourable than actually saying the truth to certain people, do the calculations.

these are not 'contemporary writers' working from their imaginations, these are historians working from well-researched, empirical facts, subject to peer review and academic scrutiny before anything is published - and they're Muslims too for the most part!

Not really, a hypocrite does not announce themselves as a hypocrite until he knows that the shaytan and his followers will embarce him with open hands. To me if someone become astray from the deen and states they are kufr, it has hard for me to even consider they were once muslims. If you have had the intention of destroying the truth, then you're hardly a muslim becomes you were not submitting to Allah (swt) in the first place but rather to what the west would love to hear.

In addition history isn't as reliable as you presume, rather far from the case.

don't worry, I'm getting fed up of this myself I'm not going to be here much longer, you can call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better

Only one who sees the wrong in their arguement gives up so soon but it your choice.

Also brother Minaz name calling will not change anything, remember you're a muslim :)

[Daoud]

Only one who sees the wrong in their arguement gives up so soon but it your choice.

well you've only just got here, this has been going on for some time now and I don't think anyone else here is about to accuse me of giving up easily! in fact as far as I can see most wish I would go away

as regards your post sister, with respect there is nothing there that has not either been covered already or to be honest is worth responding to, the only thing I will say is that I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your comments re WW2 were not motivated by some sort of revisionist approach to Nazism - history is important and we dismiss it at our peril

salaams

[snowlilies]

i had a muslim colleague who is a gay..he do show us(me n ma frnz) his pic wiz his bfs' i dunno how many bf he had but i kno one of them is a lecturer at ma uni(da lectuerer is caucasian btw)...we're quit close..thou he is gay sumtime he prays and fast..but it is sad when he went to mosque,ppl at mosque offended him...i wonder why these ppl at mosque -who make mosque alive duntry to help him back to rite path instead irritating him....i just kno tat he bcame gay when he break -up with his gf few yers ago...also i kno other muslim guy who is bi-sexual where i nvr hear he said any gurl beauty but i always hear he said that guy.this guy charming sexy bla bla bla....wutever it is i pray tat god will give him hidayah

im sorry if my word quit straight fwd

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

show me, and see my post above about DSMIV

Concerning environmental influence, there are several useful medical studies and other articles available here:
http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

You know, its funny that on one hand, Gay activists claim homosexuality is genetic, yet on the other hand, they immediately turn to animals to justify homosexuality as being 'normal'. But none of these animals have been observed to be permanently homosexual! Observations only record alleged temporary homosexual tendencies in animals. Homosexual scientist Simon LeVay admits:

Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.(LeVay, p. 207.)

Similarly, Dr. Antonio Pardo, Professor of Bioethics at the University of Navarre, Spain, explains:

Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the reproductive instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction.(Antonio Pardo, "Aspectos médicos de la homosexualidad," Nuestro Tiempo, Jul.-Aug. 1995, pp. 82-89.)

Much more info at The Animal Homosexuality Myth.

funny that, I didn't think Islam did Original Sin, I thought we all started pure and clean by the grace of Allah.

Original Sin is the chiefly christian doctrine that all human beings are born bearing the sin of Adam. This is completely different from the Islamic concept of one's nafs which leads one into sin. Islam is all about restraining one's animal desires. People have the desires for power, wealth, sex, etc. but we restrain them. This has nothing to do with original sin.

People being born with the desire to commit fornication is complete nonsense

It is a fact that all human beings (save those with some disorder) develop sexual desires after puberty. Islam teaches us to restrain these desires, they are a test.

It's not my theory about the story, it's historical research

What kind of historical research can be used for this? The only confirmation of Lot's existence is through religious scriptures. We have no historical evidence that he even existed, let alone that his people raped male travellers as opposed to being homosexual.

Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle (no relation I presume?), Sexuality, Diversity and Ethics, in Progressive Muslims ed. Omid Safi, Oxford 2003

Mr. Scott Kugle is not a muhaddith with the formal training necesseray in authenticating narrations. As a matter of fact, he proudly labels himself a 'progressive muslim'. I have already dealt with criticism of this hadith in my previous post. As well, reliable muhaditheen have declared this hadith authentic, such as Imaam Al-Albani in Irwaa’ al-Ghaleel

these are not 'contemporary writers' working from their imaginations, these are historians working from well-researched, empirical facts

Mind showing me what these 'well-researched empirical facts' are?

:w:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'm able to reply to Ansar's post just now - I'll get to yours soon, Muhammad!

No, actually I think the example is on-target. They have other ways of pleasuring eachother without necessarily reaching intercourse. What if they use birth control? The final point is that for both these kind of people and gays, there could potentially be serious medical consequences. Gayse ngaging in 'pleasuring' eachother could fall into those dangerous practices in the 'heat of the moment'.

I agree that gay men could pleasure each other in a variety of ways and that could lead them to perform anal sex, just as incestuous couples may do something similar before being led to commit incestuous sex. For me, the distinction between the two comes from the fact that any diseases caught as a result of gay sex will affect the participants only, and that is a risk they should be allowed to take. When the risk of diseases affects someone who is not a consenting participant [i.e. the infant produced from incestuous union], that, to me, is wrong. This is why I oppose incest but not homosexuality.

Homosexuality - including both gays and lesbians - is seen as a perversion of the natural order which God has instituted for humanity. It is in conflict with the nature of humanity, as a creation that procreates.

In what way is it a perversion of the natural order? Is it similarly perverted for a married couple to have regular protected sex and never to conceive a child?

Homosexuality entails many dangerous practices that have disastrous medical consequences. Hence, it is wrong from a medical perspective.

While I accept that anal sex can spread disease, I think the assumption that homosexuality is "medically wrong" is a culturally specific assumption. Doctors in the UK certainly wouldn't attempt to stop a gay person from having anal sex unless they were in a severely debilitated condition as a result. KY Jelly (a lubricant) is available in every pharmacy in Britain - it's recommended by doctors for gay men, and it's not even necessary for them to get a prescription.

Homosexuality negates the basic block of society, a family, thus it demolishes social order at the grass roots level, as children are no longer raised with the compassion of a mother and guardianship of a father.

I see the point you're making, but I thought one of the reasons you oppose homosexuality is that it cannot produce children?

Homosexuals consume from society yet contribute nothing in return. Hence, it is wrong from a societal perspective.

I think this is a generalisation. Have a look at this (abridged) list.

Socrates
Alexander the Great
Julius Caesar
Leonardo da Vinci
Michaelangelo
Tchaikovsky
Walt Whitman
Oscar Wilde
- etc.

Would you say these people have contributed nothing to society?

Now I know you made a point about 'animals doing it' somehwere in the thread in response to it being unnatural, I just can't find your statement. Anyway, my respone would be that, since when are animals practices the source for what is natural for human beings? I should hope that everyone would regard it as unnatural if a human female should happen to eat her mate during copulation, yet this is exactly what spiders do!

Fair enough, animals are perhaps not the best guide for human behaviour and interaction, but they are certainly natural. To say something is 'unnatural' implies that it would not be done by any animal, including humans. To me anyway - the word 'unnatural' has several definitions(see here), and I think we may be interpreting it in different ways.

I mean why is it seen as bigotry? Bigotry is defined in the Oxford American English Dictionary as intolerance and prejudice towards the views and opinions of others - that could apply just as well to your posts as mine!

Well, the only thing I won't tolerate is intolerance - so I guess you've got me there!

And I'm not prejudiced towards homosexuals.

In your behaviour, I'm sure you're not. The question is whether you would treat a homosexual with compassion even if they chose not to take your advice and change their ways.

Peace

[Daoud]

Hi Ansar

I had a feeling Narth was coming, I thought about mentioning them in my last post

Narth are about as far away from being an internationally respected scientific outfit as it's possible to get- they are fanatical Christian fundamentalists who would most certainly like to 'treat' Muslims as well if they could, make no mistake

funny where we find allies when we have no other options


anyway, I've really had enough of this now, which I'm sure you will take as some kind of victory but I don't have time and energy for it any more so I'm off

for the record I don't consider that my case for gays being born that way has been at all challenged in any way

and also for the record, since I was asked and I'm sure everybody has made their own mind up anyway, no I'm not gay, never have been and insh'Allah never will be, I have a beautiful little girl, alhamdulillah, and a very healthy sex drive towards women, but maybe that's a bit too much information...

anyway, thanks for your time and no hard feelings, at least on my side and I trust on nobody else's

as salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

may Allah bless and guide us all

Daoud

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The last warning is for the Muslim Ummah: If they indulge in the practice of homosexuality, Allah's punishment is not far off. The Prophet (Pbuh) cursed homosexuals by repeating three times: "Allah has cursed anyone who does what Lut's people did." And he said: "If you find any persons engaged in homosexuality, kill both the active and the passive partner." Ibn Abbas said: "Find the tallest building in the town and throw the homosexual down from its roof, then stone him to death".

I'm sorry, but that is just outrageous. Is that an authentic hadith? How can murder be less harmful than homosexuality?

This, on the other hand, is laughable:

Ibn Abbas said: "If a homosexual dies without repentance, he is changed into a pig in his grave." (Ibn Al-Jawzi)

Does anyone actually believe this?

Peace - even for gays.

[- Qatada -]

okay now this is a big problem.. i made a big mistake of searching for hadith which had no evidence. i've tried looking up the hadith above and i cant seem to find it anywhere apart from sites that copied the info. from the same link as the site above.

sorry.. unless i find solid proof i'll edit my post above insha Allah.

[sapphire]

salaamz...
Say: "O 'Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Az-Zumar 39:53)....
apart from shirk though...
and im sure that all people, who have atleast a bit of faith in them, after serving their time in jahanam, will enter janah inshallah becoz Allah is so merciful....

one thing though...those people who know people who are homosexual...dont mention or write about them...a sin shouldn't be displayed....

anyway all homosexuals can be cured...prophet (s.a.w) said there is a cure for all diseases but old age and death....

about them being punished or not...depends on which of the four imaams they follow...

thats my knowledge...please feel free to correct me.....

[- Qatada -]

wa alykum asalam warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

yep, Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) is ever merciful and forgives all sins except shirk:

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but he forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has invented a tremendous sin. (4:48)

i really liked the way you quoted everything in the post above sis, masha Allah. jazak Allah khayr.


wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Callum and :sl: Daud (if you're still here),
I wasn't planning on replying since there wasn't much to say, but now that this thread has re-surfaced, i figured I might as well add my input.

I agree that gay men could pleasure each other in a variety of ways and that could lead them to perform anal sex, just as incestuous couples may do something similar before being led to commit incestuous sex. For me, the distinction between the two comes from the fact that any diseases caught as a result of gay sex will affect the participants only, and that is a risk they should be allowed to take. When the risk of diseases affects someone who is not a consenting participant [i.e. the infant produced from incestuous union], that, to me, is wrong. This is why I oppose incest but not homosexuality.

Okay, a couple of points to note here:
1. From a standpoint of morality and justice (and hence Islam) it is wrong to inflict harm on anyone whether it be oneself or others. Do you agree with people who torture themselves?
2. You didn't answer my point about incentuous couples engaging in relationships that would not produce off-spring, such as the use of birth control or those other methods of pleasuring eachother, to which you alluded.

Thus by your logic, we should allow this form of union.

In what way is it a perversion of the natural order? Is it similarly perverted for a married couple to have regular protected sex and never to conceive a child?

It is unnatural for sure, but at least not as perverted as homosexuality for in this scenario such people would at least be engaging in a male-female relationship, as God made two complementary genders amongst human beings.

While I accept that anal sex can spread disease, I think the assumption that homosexuality is "medically wrong" is a culturally specific assumption. Doctors in the UK certainly wouldn't attempt to stop a gay person from having anal sex unless they were in a severely debilitated condition as a result. KY Jelly (a lubricant) is available in every pharmacy in Britain - it's recommended by doctors for gay men, and it's not even necessary for them to get a prescription.

While that may reduce the damage to some extent it still may not prevent all the infections I mentioned earlier. And it just relates back to your point of there being other methods by which they may 'pleasure' eachother.

I see the point you're making, but I thought one of the reasons you oppose homosexuality is that it cannot produce children?

Yes. Thus, homosexuals are not contributing in the nurturing of the next generation. But my point was made as many people try to get around that by suggesting adoption. Even if that takes place, one does not recieve the strength from the two parental roles.

I think this is a generalisation. Have a look at this (abridged) list.

Socrates
Alexander the Great
Julius Caesar
Leonardo da Vinci
Michaelangelo
Tchaikovsky
Walt Whitman
Oscar Wilde
- etc.

Would you say these people have contributed nothing to society?

The point was made in connection with the previous point - the issue of raising families. And just for the record, I don't value the contributions to society of the abiove mentioned people, either.

Fair enough, animals are perhaps not the best guide for human behaviour and interaction, but they are certainly natural. To say something is 'unnatural' implies that it would not be done by any animal, including humans. To me anyway - the word 'unnatural' has several definitions(see here), and I think we may be interpreting it in different ways.

The point is that it is unnatural for human beings.

Well, the only thing I won't tolerate is intolerance - so I guess you've got me there!

I'm not intolerant of homosexuals, I simply view homosexuality as a abnormality that needs to be treated.

In your behaviour, I'm sure you're not. The question is whether you would treat a homosexual with compassion even if they chose not to take your advice and change their ways.

Its hard to make a generalization. It depends of course on the circumstances. In a society that has propagated the view that such an inclination and practice is perfectly normal, it may be more difficult to change the views of others and it would require a great deal of patience and compassion.

:sl: Daud,

I had a feeling Narth was coming, I thought about mentioning them in my last post

Narth are about as far away from being an internationally respected scientific outfit as it's possible to get- they are fanatical Christian fundamentalists who would most certainly like to 'treat' Muslims as well if they could, make no mistake

funny where we find allies when we have no other options

The articles were quoted for their scientific evidence provided to support their case. I couldn't care less about the religious views of the authors, that's irrelevant.

for the record I don't consider that my case for gays being born that way has been at all challenged in any way

If you consider that they are born that way, do you consider it a genetic trait passed on by their parents?

:w:

[sapphire]

it cant be genetic can it?....coz then wouldnt they be like wiped out coz obviously they wont have kids.....

[czgibson]

Hi Ansar,

Okay, a couple of points to note here:
1. From a standpoint of morality and justice (and hence Islam) it is wrong to inflict harm on anyone whether it be oneself or others. Do you agree with people who torture themselves?

Do I agree with them? Well, if you're talking about people who inflict harm on themselves, that could mean anything from eating fatty foods to masochism to suicide. They should be made aware of the dangers involved, but after that it's really up to them.

2. You didn't answer my point about incentuous couples engaging in relationships that would not produce off-spring, such as the use of birth control or those other methods of pleasuring eachother, to which you alluded.

Read the paragraph again, and you'll see I have answered this question.

While that may reduce the damage to some extent it still may not prevent all the infections I mentioned earlier.

OK, but doctors still recommend it, and they certainly don't preach to gay people in an attempt to make them change their sexuality.

And it just relates back to your point of there being other methods by which they may 'pleasure' eachother.

How?

And just for the record, I don't value the contributions to society of the abiove mentioned people, either.

Why not? Are you sure you're not being ethnocentric there?

The point is that it is unnatural for human beings.

Human beings are still animals though, essentially.

I'm not intolerant of homosexuals, I simply view homosexuality as a abnormality that needs to be treated.

So you're intolerant of homosexuality, correct?

Its hard to make a generalization. It depends of course on the circumstances. In a society that has propagated the view that such an inclination and practice is perfectly normal, it may be more difficult to change the views of others and it would require a great deal of patience and compassion.

Yes, and I'm afraid many gay people would simply laugh at your attitude. In the West it's seen very much as an old-fashioned prejudice.

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do I agree with them? Well, if you're talking about people who inflict harm on themselves, that could mean anything from eating fatty foods to masochism to suicide. They should be made aware of the dangers involved, but after that it's really up to them.

Does that make it right?

Read the paragraph again, and you'll see I have answered this question.

Sorry I wasn't able to find your answer. Could you point it out to me?

How?

Because it simply demonstrates that homosexuals can pleasure eachother with reduced damage, but it doesn't negate the medical consequences involved.

Why not? Are you sure you're not being ethnocentric there?

That is, of course, beyond the scope of this thread.

Human beings are still animals though, essentially.

So? As I already pointed out, what is natural for one species may not be natural for others. And I believe that human beings are fundamentally different from other animals; as you agreedm we cannot take animals as a guide.

So you're intolerant of homosexuality, correct?

I oppose homosexuality. I find it disappointing to see people being pushed further into misguidance.

Yes, and I'm afraid many gay people would simply laugh at your attitude.

I'm sure some would. But simply laughing at the views of others does nothing to disprove them. Let them laugh all they want, it is nothing more than an evasion from a factual discussion. We believers are already prepared for such.

83:29. Indeed, those who committed crimes used to laugh at those who believed.

Regards

[Bittersteel]

what are rulings on homosexuals?

:sl:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

what are rulings on homosexuals?

As descibed in this thread you advise them first. Note the distinction between homosexuals and homosexual acts.

:w:

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

Does that make it right?

Not necessarily, but if people want to perform actions that will harm themselves and no-one else, I don't see why they shouldn't have the right to make that choice.

Sorry I wasn't able to find your answer. Could you point it out to me?

OK, here's what I wrote:

I agree that gay men could pleasure each other in a variety of ways and that could lead them to perform anal sex, just as incestuous couples may do something similar before being led to commit incestuous sex. For me, the distinction between the two comes from the fact that any diseases caught as a result of gay sex will affect the participants only, and that is a risk they should be allowed to take. When the risk of diseases affects someone who is not a consenting participant [i.e. the infant produced from incestuous union], that, to me, is wrong. This is why I oppose incest but not homosexuality.

Essentially I'm using one of the arguments you used to explain your opposition to homosexuality, but applying it to incestuous couples. Both activities contain risks to the health of the participants. However, with incest, the risks also apply to a person who has not consented to the action, i.e. the child that may be produced from such a union. I understand that not all incestuous sex will lead to childbirth, but the risk remains that the people involved will move towards fully consummated sex. Even if this involves contraception, that can sometimes fail and produce unwanted pregnancies. Therefore I would oppose any incestuous activity.

Because it simply demonstrates that homosexuals can pleasure eachother with reduced damage, but it doesn't negate the medical consequences involved.

OK, but there are also medical consequences that can arise from hetero-sex as well. Would you oppose that too?

That is, of course, beyond the scope of this thread.

Fair enough. I'd be interested to discuss it with you on another thread, but I can't think of an appropriate title.

I oppose homosexuality. I find it disappointing to see people being pushed further into misguidance.

So would you say you are intolerant of homosexuality?

I'm sure some would. But simply laughing at the views of others does nothing to disprove them. Let them laugh all they want, it is nothing more than an evasion from a factual discussion.

It would be an evasion, simply because, to gay people, there is no need for a discussion.

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,
I see you're catching up on many threads. :)

Not necessarily, but if people want to perform actions that will harm themselves and no-one else, I don't see why they shouldn't have the right to make that choice.

Simply because it is wrong. Harming anyone is morally wrong whether it is yourself or others.

Essentially I'm using one of the arguments you used to explain your opposition to homosexuality, but applying it to incestuous couples. Both activities contain risks to the health of the participants. However, with incest, the risks also apply to a person who has not consented to the action, i.e. the child that may be produced from such a union. I understand that not all incestuous sex will lead to childbirth, but the risk remains that the people involved will move towards fully consummated sex. Even if this involves contraception, that can sometimes fail and produce unwanted pregnancies. Therefore I would oppose any incestuous activity.

Even after that they still have the option of abortions. The point being that they are fully in control of the situation the whole time. You're making a judgement against them - that you feel that they are incapable of controlling themselves or making responsible judements. Is your judgement justified? Any argument you use against incentuous marriage can be turned around against homosexual marriage. The difference between you and I is that I oppose such things simply because I believe they are morally wrong. Do you oppose incentuous marriage because you believe it is morally wrong or because of something else?

Have you ever thought that one day society might accept incentuous marriage and your views would be regarded as bigoted?

[ummbilal]

Greetings,



I'm sorry, but that is just outrageous. Is that an authentic hadith? How can murder be less harmful than homosexuality?

This, on the other hand, is laughable:



Does anyone actually believe this?

Peace - even for gays.

Hello CZ, no closer then?

hmm

imagine you were living in medivial england, who would believe that the world was in fact one planet of many revolving around a star, infact a galaxcy one of maybe millions?

who would believe that washing away dirt prevented disease?
or that

once dinosaurs roamed the earth?

i think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, so when Allahs Prophet saws tells us that anyone who dies kufr will have 2 snakes in his/her grave biting him continously until that day of reserection we believe it. because we cannot falt our prophet Muhammed saws, his character is exlempary.

do not mock us, you believe you were evolved from apes .........

[Far7an]

Assalamu alaikum

Thread re opened

[czgibson]

Hello Ansar,

Simply because it is wrong. Harming anyone is morally wrong whether it is yourself or others.

OK, we obviously disagree there. Harming others is wrong, I believe, but if someone wants to harm themselves that is up to them.

The difference between you and I is that I oppose such things simply because I believe they are morally wrong. Do you oppose incentuous marriage because you believe it is morally wrong or because of something else?

I think there's a fundamental difference between homosexual and incestuous relationships, as I've explained.

I oppose incestuous relationships because passing medical ailments onto an unconsenting person (a child produced form incestuous union) is morally wrong, as far as I can see. Just as you oppose any form of homosexual relationship (including those that may not include anal sex) because the temptation will always be there to go ahead with anal sex, I oppose non-sexual incestuous relationships because the temptation of full consummation will also be present.

Have you ever thought that one day society might accept incentuous marriage and your views would be regarded as bigoted?

An interesting idea which I've not considered before - I consider it massively unlikely because of the risks of disease for the unconsenting party.

Greetings Ummbilal,

I have to say, I'm not sure how your post relates to what I said. Let's have a look:

Hello CZ, no closer then?

Closer to what? Converting to Islam? I don't want to give anyone false hopes here - it's very unlikely I'll convert to theism, let alone anything else.

imagine you were living in medivial england, who would believe that the world was in fact one planet of many revolving around a star, infact a galaxcy one of maybe millions?

who would believe that washing away dirt prevented disease?
or that

once dinosaurs roamed the earth?

Not many people, for sure. What point are you making?

i think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone, so when Allahs Prophet saws tells us that anyone who dies kufr will have 2 snakes in his/her grave biting him continously until that day of reserection we believe it. because we cannot falt our prophet Muhammed saws, his character is exlempary.

I don't remember making reference to this two snakes idea, but now you mention it, has anyone actually checked every grave to make sure this is the case? I very much doubt it's true, but of course you're free to believe it if you think you have good reason to do so.

I made reference to two quotes in the post you quoted from. One was a hadith originally posted by Akhee, which said that homosexuals should be murdered (or words to that effect). I find this idea abhorrent, and I find it hard to believe that the Prophet (pbuh) would believe homosexuality was worse than murder. It now appears that the hadith may not be authentic.

The second quote was from one of the Prophet's (pbuh) companions, Ibn Abbas. Here it is:

Ibn Abbas said: "If a homosexual dies without repentance, he is changed into a pig in his grave." (Ibn Al-Jawzi)

This idea seems utterly ridiculous to me, and I have absolutely no hesitation in saying so. If you have any evidence that this does in fact happen, I'd love to hear about it.

do not mock us, you believe you were evolved from apes .........

Close - I believe that humans and apes have the same common ancestor. Seeing as we share around 95-98% of our genetic material with certain species of chimpanzee, I think it's likely to be true. Anyway, that's another debate.

Peace

[Prince_Ali_786]

it cant be genetic can it?....coz then wouldnt they be like wiped out coz obviously they wont have kids.....

Here's the thing. There is a difference between genetic and hereditary. Something you pass down to your children is hereditary, including your genes, however, due to some malfunctions in your conception, it is possible to have non hereditary genetic defects. According to the laws of genetics, lesbianism is actually IMPOSSIBLE, but research is inconclusive about homosexuality in men. The reason for this is that, as most of you know, girls are girls because they have two X chromosomes in their 23rd chromosomal pair. Whereas boys have an X and Y chromosome. Boys and girls are the exact same genetically until the sixth week of conception, which is when the Y chromosome kicks into action and triggers testerone, resulting in our physiological differences. The Y chromosome is what can potentially cause homosexual tendencies, which is why girls cannot attribute their homosexual tendencies to a genetic source. In males however, there can be a malfunction in conception called trisomy, in which case the 23rd chromosomal pair can have two X chromosomes and a Y chromosomes. In this case, the effect of the Y chromosome is not as prominent as it needs to be, which may be a cause. Another possibility is that the Y chromosome malfunctions and does not produce the sufficient amount of testosterone, resulting in the physiology of a male without the sufficient accompanying hormones. All of this is based on some speculation, but based on this homosexuality may have a genetic source.

[Prince_Ali_786]

If one doesn't want to accept that Islam doesn't allow homosexuality in it's followers then I'm glad I don't adopt the same attitude. If an individual decides they like the same sex then so be it - he/she is a non-believer (whether they call themselves a muslim or not)

I dont think it is your place to say whether or not they are muslim. That is up to Allah (SWT) alone. There can be many other reasons that you are not taking into consideration.

[anis_z24]

Salam
I advise you to stay away or mabe you will be like him.
Since your friends are your personal mirror.

[Prince_Ali_786]

I think that is completely absurd. Being friends with a gay person is not going to turn you gay. I dont believe its right either but being gay is not an easy thing to deal with for the gay person at all and people who just discover it are going through a lot. The last thing they need is to lose anymore friends over it. Is it also not taught in Islam to be tolerant, and not do anything that will hurt other people. At the end of the day, they are still human beings, and we need to be more tolerant, whether or not we respect their actions or not.

[czgibson]

Greetings, Prince Ali,

According to the laws of genetics, lesbianism is actually IMPOSSIBLE, but research is inconclusive about homosexuality in men.

Very interesting - I've never heard this before. Lesbianism clearly exists, so either the laws of genetics are not true, or someone has interpreted them wrongly.

Having said that, genetics is a subject you probably know more about than I do.

Peace

[~Raindrop~]

salaam
hey you lot the punishment for this is mentioned in several Saheeh Hadiths. do we need more evidence? when Allah Most Great created Adam peace be upon him he also created for him a companion and partner. she was female. if sodomy was allowed then we would have been made aware.
wassalam

[libyanhero]

I agree with brother "Prince_Ali_786" and I see his argument and its pretty interesting, I am not in the field of science so I won't know whether he is exact on Lesbianism is Impossible but I also see it in a different way Lesbianism is deprivation of sexual intimacy

since women actual need the sex or romance, the affection is needed and why a women turns lesbian is not because she wants to but she needs affection, she needs to feel loved or she either hurt by men and hates the character in men from her point of view.

The man is sensitive, if he is not it means he gotta do some serious checking has a dead heart. Womens feelings are very very sensitive and man won't be able and cannot feel a womens sensitivity because that is how Allah made women, men have sensitivity but alot of them these days don't wanna go there because if a man feels hurt and wants to tear but then cant cuz he is machoman that is so wrong, just let it go.

If you get to know how sensitive the prophet was which made him unresistable to his wives, I bet your wives won't leave you one second.

Anyways women turn lesbian because of men who hurt them, abuse them, misuse them.

A woman is secure in a man's heart but a woman will never find security with another woman and there is plenty of reasons why women like a good man. Am I right ladies? lol or even close

[nafy]

A woman is secure in a man's heart but a woman will never find security with another woman and there is plenty of reasons why women like a good man. Am I right ladies? lol or even close

yeh.......true! well sed bro :)
u make ALOT of sense u know.......in all ur posts! mashallah!! :)

[~Raindrop~]

yeh.......true! well sed bro :)
u make ALOT of sense u know.......in all ur posts! mashallah!! :)

:sl: i agree:w: :coolious: :loving:

[libyanhero]

jazakum allah khayr, I just need to know I am on the right track when I say these stuff and if I say anything wrong need to correct my view

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
You lot should take up A2 psychology. You might learn something.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Anyways women turn lesbian because of men who hurt them, abuse them, misuse them.

Is that true in all cases, do you think? I'm not so sure.

Peace

[libyanhero]

:sl:
You lot should take up A2 psychology. You might learn something.

you mean psychology or A2 lol, whats the A2 for: yah I am thinking of going psycho (lol kidding), yah its very useful and it will help alot of people in the future because I am sure I will have alot of customers in this constant corrupting world lol

[Muezzin]

:sl:

Don't do psychology, it's a doss subject :p

And gayness in my opinion is so wrong it's funny.

[libyanhero]

:sl:

Don't do psychology, it's a doss subject :p

And gayness in my opinion is so wrong it's funny.

Man wallah I am going crazy on what to do lol

everything to me is boring only Islam maybe I should be an Imam yet I am stink at that too

yah psychology is no fun

I am thinking of taking business administration just to make a living lol, u need the money right maybe i will change my occupation

i better get back on track, before the mods come

[Muezzin]

Mmm.

As strange as this may sound, let's get back to gays.

[libyanhero]

alright listen up all u lesbian women go back to ur man they need u

what kinda messed up man wants to be gay, no seriously: if ur gay then ur messed so clean up the dirt before we bury the rest;D :raging: and ur asking if thats a threat yes and your next :skeleton: :raging: muhahaha

:peace: :peace: just kidding but plz do clean ur nest

[nafy]

^^ lol......n i thort u was sensitive?? hehehe ;)
gotta say dat was abit of a harsh way of putting things.... ;)
but it is true!!!! being gay or lesbian is just....ewwwwwwww......

[minaz]

Anyways women turn lesbian because of men who hurt them, abuse them, misuse them

alright listen up all u lesbian women go back to ur man they need u
what kinda messed up man wants to be gay

Extremely weak and loose comments I feel

[libyanhero]

Extremely weak and loose comments I feel

hey it was a joke, laugh with me bro

I had a gay friend well not in contact but I seen and I have no enmity against him even though he is muslim, let him carry on his own life and when its the right time I will make sure I will do dawah

ewww I am not gay and don't wish to be gay, elhamdulillah I love my sisters in Isam for Islam

[Prince_Ali_786]

Greetings, Prince Ali,


Very interesting - I've never heard this before. Lesbianism clearly exists, so either the laws of genetics are not true, or someone has interpreted them wrongly.

Having said that, genetics is a subject you probably know more about than I do.

Peace

Dear friend,
i meant to say that lesbianism is a life style choice because it is genetically impossible. i realize that it does exist, however its source is not genetic but personal choice. Which may not necessarily be true about males.

[libyanhero]

^^ lol......n i thort u was sensitive?? hehehe ;)
gotta say dat was abit of a harsh way of putting things.... ;)
but it is true!!!! being gay or lesbian is just....ewwwwwwww......

I am sensitive but that was joke, I can laugh with insensitive jokes

[nafy]

^^ lol okay den ;) :)