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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 01:13 AM
Just out of curiousity what peoples thoughts were on the execution of Sharia law on the taliban, and im here to clear up misconceptions about them. Remember Taliban are not Al Qaeda. Bring up what you can from what you hear from the news because that will be the best way for me to refute the misconceptions JazakaAllah Khair

Assalam alaikam
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Samee
04-28-2006, 02:12 AM
:sl:

The Taliban were the closest to a proper Islamic government the world has ever seen. Keep in mind one thing, always: the U.S. media will love to blow things way out of proportion.

Whenever an ignorant news reporter had to do a story on them, they would always show women in veils and go all out saying "These women are imprisoned!" What do they care? Are the women complaining? Nope. The U.S. media tried its hardest to get the public to dislike the Taliban for one reason or another, probably because of their close ties with Sheikh Bin Laden.

They did everything according to Islamic law, never holding back. They lived in my former home, Afghanistan, fighting like true Mujahideen. They defeated a powerful Soviet Army and they singlehandedly destroyed the USSR. They are one of the biggest reasons why the USSR isn't around today.

On a side note, a couple of years ago they brought a former American Taliban student to court to testify for crimes against humanity. He sat there, looking confident and strong with a powerful look. A 40 year old lawyer got up- she was wearing probably 40 tons of makeup and was dressed very inappropriately. She came up to him and screamed at him "You people are imprisoning your women! These are hate crimes and you must be punished! These women in Afghanistan have no way out, they are trapped and must wear a veil over their heads just to fit in with the crowd!"

The Taliban student merely chuckled and responded by saying "Irony is truly a wonderful thing. I feel badly for your husband- he must have a hard time with you."

People have bad images of the Taliban, but they were abiding by Islamic law for years and they never really did anything un-islamic.
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 02:25 AM
Heh I wonder who that Was HASHEMI!
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HeiGou
04-28-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Samee
They did everything according to Islamic law, never holding back. They lived in my former home, Afghanistan, fighting like true Mujahideen. They defeated a powerful Soviet Army and they singlehandedly destroyed the USSR. They are one of the biggest reasons why the USSR isn't around today.
Actuallly they did not defeat the Soviet Union. Some members of the Taliban were older enough to fight the Soviets - Mullah Omar for instance - and did. But the Taliban is a later movement made up of students too young to fight the Soviets. They fought the Northern Alliance of Mujihadeen who did fight the Soviet Union. The present government of Afghanistan is made up of people who defeated the Soviet Union. More or less.

On a side note, a couple of years ago they brought a former American Taliban student to court to testify for crimes against humanity. He sat there, looking confident and strong with a powerful look. A 40 year old lawyer got up- she was wearing probably 40 tons of makeup and was dressed very inappropriately. She came up to him and screamed at him "You people are imprisoning your women! These are hate crimes and you must be punished! These women in Afghanistan have no way out, they are trapped and must wear a veil over their heads just to fit in with the crowd!"

The Taliban student merely chuckled and responded by saying "Irony is truly a wonderful thing. I feel badly for your husband- he must have a hard time with you."
Interesting you think that reflects well on him. This is a famous incident but he was not and has not been brought up on charges for anything much less crimes against humanity. He is a student at Yale on a full scholarship. Although probably not for much longer. The generousity of Americans is sometimes truely amazing.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-28-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
The generousity of Americans is sometimes truely amazing.
:sl:

Really, i find that sentence really funny. Ofcourse they are very generous with their bombs and bullets. I think you are right.

:w:
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HeiGou
04-28-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Åhmed
Really, i find that sentence really funny. Ofcourse they are very generous with their bombs and bullets. I think you are right.
Well I could argue about that but I won't. They may be. But I still think it is amazing that they are paying for the education of one of their enemies at one of the best Universities in the world. A University I doubt I could get into.

But that is perhaps off topic. Hmmm, I think the Taleban were the best that Afghanistan could have expected. Which is not saying much. But it would have been better if they allowed the people of Afghanistan to make up their own minds by voting.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-28-2006, 04:01 PM
in all honesty i dont think anyone of us kno much about tha taliban! Who here has met the taliban in real life let him speak! Or else we have no right to judge.

TRIPLE FILTER, lets rememba :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-28-2006, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Åhmed
:sl:

Really, i find that sentence really funny. Ofcourse they are very generous with their bombs and bullets. I think you are right.

:w:
yes and helping those they hav put into abject poverty is also something there good at, of course only some of them not all :p
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HeiGou
04-28-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
yes and helping those they hav put into abject poverty is also something there good at, of course only some of them not all :p
The period of American domination of the world has been a period of unparalleled growth in wealth all over the world. Some parts of the world have done better than other parts, but pretty much all the world is vastly wealthier now than it ever has been. And the more people have rejected America, the more abjectly poor they are (North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc etc).
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
The period of American domination of the world has been a period of unparalleled growth in wealth all over the world. Some parts of the world have done better than other parts, but pretty much all the world is vastly wealthier now than it ever has been. And the more people have rejected America, the more abjectly poor they are (North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc etc).

I dont know to prove some of your ignorance. If you look at any fbi state department report you would notice the taliban are not on there.

2nd, a large faction of the taliban are also in the new govt inflitrating

3rd, i didnt understand your phrase about hashemi , what about him?

4th, amazingly the taliban is starting to take over parts of Afghanistan back and its amazing how they are doing it. Just recently 3 to 5 thousand pakistanis joined the taliban
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HeiGou
04-28-2006, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
I dont know to prove some of your ignorance. If you look at any fbi state department report you would notice the taliban are not on there.
So? Afghanistan has a long history of rejecting the US. Since the Soviet invasion in fact it has been down hill all the way - and the economy has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. It is picking up now the US is there. Co-incidence? Perhaps not.

2nd, a large faction of the taliban are also in the new govt inflitrating
Which is interesting. But the fact remains that the Americans have created, or helped create, vast amounts of wealth for most of the world.

3rd, i didnt understand your phrase about hashemi , what about him?
Isn't it amazing that he is getting such an excellent education at the expense of the American public? You don't think so?

4th, amazingly the taliban is starting to take over parts of Afghanistan back and its amazing how they are doing it. Just recently 3 to 5 thousand pakistanis joined the taliban
Amazing how they are doing it? You mean with the help of thousands of foreigners?
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wilberhum
04-28-2006, 06:02 PM
The Taliban were the closest to a proper Islamic government the world has ever seen.
May god save the rest of the world from such a government.
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 06:35 PM
The taliban however did have alot of strict extremist values. Yet not As how Wilberhum was saying may God save them from the rest of the world? I guess shouldnt even post on this topic just from that sentence you dont know anything about afghanistan or taliban.

Heigou? What are you talking about Rejecting the US? You see your thinking Oh its good to modernize a country make them up to date to help them out for wealth and money interests. Some people in this world dont care much about what others want in this life towards money. I hope you get that through your head that some people dont want democracy.

2nd Hashemi tax money? Dont worry he is getting private funding. Dont even talk about him when you dont even know where his funding is coming from.
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HeiGou
04-28-2006, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
The taliban however did have alot of strict extremist values. Yet not As how Wilberhum was saying may God save them from the rest of the world? I guess shouldnt even post on this topic just from that sentence you dont know anything about afghanistan or taliban.
Oh I don't know. I don't care of the Taliban run Afghanistan but I wouldn't want them running a country near me. I think it would be an unusual kafir who thought otherwise.

Heigou? What are you talking about Rejecting the US? You see your thinking Oh its good to modernize a country make them up to date to help them out for wealth and money interests. Some people in this world dont care much about what others want in this life towards money. I hope you get that through your head that some people dont want democracy.
I agree that some people do not care about what others want. I would also agree that some people do not care about money. But wealth means more children surviving childhood. It means better education and more health care. I think a lot of people care about that sort of thing. By rejecting the US, I mean rejecting the American way of life, rejecting Americans trade and economic advice, rejecting ties with the US. The more you do that the poorer you will be.

2nd Hashemi tax money? Dont worry he is getting private funding. Dont even talk about him when you dont even know where his funding is coming from.
I have a pretty good idea where his money is coming from - God knows it has been discussed enough. And he is being generously supported by the Americans, and the American tax payer. Amazing isn't it?
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wilberhum
04-28-2006, 07:53 PM
I may not be the holder of all great knowledge but I don’t live in a cave either.
There are valid reasons that only 3 countries in the whole world recognized them. One of the most admirable aspects of the Taliban was there support for the mass murder OBL and his group of killers. To admire the Taliban is to admire OBL and it is a fact that there is no small support for OBL, probably a majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
The Taliban were widely criticized by Western countries for their oppression of women. Women were strictly limited in their ability to work in public places.
Although the Taliban claimed that the education of girls in rural Afghanistan was increasing, a UNESCO report said that there was "a whopping 65% drop in their enrollment. In schools run by the Directorate of Education, only 1 per cent of the pupils are girls. The percentage of female teachers, too, has slid from 59.2 per cent in 1990 to 13.5 per cent in 1999."
Minority groups, especially Hazaras, were brutally persecuted and oppressed by the Taliban. More than 15,000 Hazaras were killed in central highlands known as Hazarajat, their women were enslaved and later sold to tribal leaders in Pakistan. Taliban leader On Genocide of Hazaras:
"The policy of the Taliban is to exterminate the Hazaras." Maulawi Mohammed Hanif, Taliban Commander announcing their policy to a crowd of 300 people summoned to a mosque (after killing 15,000 Hazaras people in a day). "Hazaras are not Muslims. You can kill them. It is not a sin." Mullah Manon Niazi, Taliban Governor of Mazar-e Sharif speaking to a crowd in a mosque after the fall of Mazara-e-Sharif city in 1998.
Hazaras were brutally massacred thoroughout Afghanistan. The two well known accounted by Human Rights Watch arein Yakaogang, January 2001 and at Robatak Pass in May of 2000.
Al-Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. The Taliban and bin Laden had very close connections, which were formalized by a marriage of one of bin Laden's sons to Omar's daughter.

I see no difference between praising the Taliban and praising terrorism.
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Daffodil
04-28-2006, 08:08 PM
Peace in afganistan, Bring back the taliban!

My husband wrote an article about the taliban, ill get him to post it inshallah.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-28-2006, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
The period of American domination of the world has been a period of unparalleled growth in wealth all over the world. Some parts of the world have done better than other parts, but pretty much all the world is vastly wealthier now than it ever has been. And the more people have rejected America, the more abjectly poor they are (North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc etc).

America isnt the sole provider. Allah will provide for them (that is, for the Taliban). Sorry if you find that funny, but I'll laugh at you for finding it funny.

Originally Posted by wilberhum
The Taliban were the closest to a proper Islamic government the world has ever seen.
May god save the rest of the world from such a government.
May God save the world from every type of government except the proper, flawless Islamic Sharia one. Democracy included.

I see no difference between praising the Taliban and praising terrorism.
I could say the same about Isreal. Isreal and Terrorists are synonymous.
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 09:29 PM
Do not Bring up Hazaris You should see what they did in Deploy of Afghan Convoy check that video out not wikipedia. And Wilberhum just dont post on this topic as i see your knowledge only comes from wikipedia.


And heigou you have no clue where his money is coming from, Where is it coming from Tell me where?. you tell me where. I know where you tell me where.
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minaz
04-28-2006, 09:58 PM
Good debate occurring here, what I didn’t like about the Taliban is the way people were forced to comply with the social rules imposed. For example the closure of theatres, banning of music, flying a kite, chess, football etc. Fair enough some of these may lead to fitnah and what have you, but come on, forcing it on the nation it’s over the top don’t ya think!
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-28-2006, 10:02 PM
no1 knows the taliban. This is quite the pointless debate, WHO KNOWS THEM? if u do u'd hav been interogated by now!!
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wilberhum
04-28-2006, 10:13 PM
no1 knows the taliban.
Try reading. There is a wealth of knowledge out there.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-28-2006, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
no1 knows the taliban.
Try reading. There is a wealth of knowledge out there.
how bout u go and meet with them and let me kno what u think?
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 10:32 PM
Lol Abd Majid there are alot of taliban in the new Govt there are even Taliban in america that are cleared by the FBI. You have to understand there are taliban that are liked by the USA not all taliban are evil to the USA.

And i think I know them lol
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wilberhum
04-28-2006, 10:42 PM
Why would I want to go meet murder and killers?
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mahdisoldier19
04-28-2006, 10:43 PM
Well you live in a country that murdered over 30k civilians in Iraq? So who are you kidding? Even if the taliban did kill people innocent for arguement sake, no where close to the United States? So shhhh friend.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-28-2006, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why would I want to go meet murder and killers?
u neva met them n u call them such things? thats not right!
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-28-2006, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
For example the closure of theatres, banning of music, flying a kite, chess, football etc. Fair enough some of these may lead to fitnah and what have you, but come on, forcing it on the nation it’s over the top don’t ya think!
:sl:

Theaters - Most of the Western movies are not complete without a some type of sexual theme. If not that far, romance between 2 unmarried non-mahrams. This is Zina which Allah has told us not to even come near.

Music- Is haram.

6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).

7. And when Our Verses (of the Qur'ân) are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
Flying a kite - I dont know if they have done this, or why they have doe it if it is indeed true.

Chess- Ruling on playing chess
- Q&A
Library- Islam Q&A


Football- Again, i dont know if they have done this or their reasons if they have.

Islam makes it clear that anything that leads to sin is a sin and is forbidden. Therefore many of what they have banned is based upon the Quran and the Sunnah and they are right to do that.

Surah Baqarah:

191: ...And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing....

217: ...and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing..

:w:
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wilberhum
04-28-2006, 11:11 PM
u neva met them n u call them such things? thats not right!
I never met Hitler either, but I know some of what he did.
I never met Bush either, but I know some of what he did.
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aamirsaab
04-28-2006, 11:19 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And heigou you have no clue where his money is coming from, Where is it coming from Tell me where?. you tell me where. I know where you tell me where.
America is actually in debt to itself because it keeps spending ridiculous amounts of money each year for whatever reason.

Also, here's a definition on terrorism from my great pal Dictionary.com
ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. (coughs, Iraq war, coughs)

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter&#183;ror&#183;ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter&#183;ror&#183;is&#183;tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, &#169; 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear [syn: act of terrorism, terrorist act].
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Shukria
04-28-2006, 11:32 PM
Wilberhum, how can u quote wikipedia of all things...At least come up with strong evidence..U quoting a site where any Tom, .... and Harry under the sun can write anyting they want.....
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cool_jannah
04-28-2006, 11:33 PM
yeeeeeaaa!

Taliban were awesome!
They should take over the USA and make these people civilized !!!
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aamirsaab
04-28-2006, 11:36 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by cool_jannah
yeeeeeaaa!

Taliban were awesome!
They should take over the USA and make these people civilized !!!
Try saying that in the USA. The phrase: "Get yo ass smoked" comes to mind for some bizzare reason.

It's not the Taliban you want, it's sharia law.
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Shukria
04-28-2006, 11:39 PM
I don't think there's any govt. dat follows the Shariah word by word...It's just one of the signs of Yamul Qiyamma...
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HeiGou
04-29-2006, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
And heigou you have no clue where his money is coming from, Where is it coming from Tell me where?. you tell me where. I know where you tell me where.
Well unlike you I am in no position to ask him where his money comes from. But it has been discussed at some length in the media. Here's an example.

JOHN FUND ON THE TRAIL

Cole Fire
Yale is set to ditch Taliban Man and may hire a notorious anti-Israel professor.


Monday, April 24, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

Sayed Rahmatullah Hashemi's luck is running out. Eight weeks ago the Taliban diplomat turned special Yale student made a media splash on the cover of the New York Times magazine in which he proclaimed: "In some ways I'm the luckiest person in the world, I could have ended up in Guantanamo Bay. Instead I ended up at Yale."

But the continued outrage over the news that an unrepentant former official of a criminal regime whose remnants are still killing U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan is part of the Ivy League is catching up with him. Yale is about to establish tougher standards for the program under which he is applying to become a degree-status sophomore next fall, and the consensus is that Mr. Hashemi won't measure up.

Taliban Man's days as a Bulldog look to be numbered. But Yale may be about to stir up new controversy as it appears to be on the verge of offering a notorious anti-Israel academic a faculty position.

For now give Mr. Hashemi and his financial backers at the Wyoming-based International Education Foundation (The International Education Foundation) credit for persistence. Ignoring hints that he should "study abroad" next year, Mr. Hashemi and the foundation are forcing Yale officials to rule on whether or not their former prize "diversity" catch still belongs at the university. "He's doing all he can to come back," Mike Hoover, the CBS producer/cameraman who is one of the founders of the IEF, told the Yale Daily News last week. "For him to be a real shaker, it would be great [for him] to have graduated with a degree."

Yale's Special Student Program consists of two parts. The first, under which Mr. Hashemi was admitted last year, allows "nontraditional" students to attend classes for credit they can use at other colleges, but it doesn't lead to a Yale degree. The second, named after Yale alumnus and cotton-gin inventor Eli Whitney, serves older students who are seeking a Yale degree. Mr. Hashemi has applied for admission in the fall under the Whitney program.

Now Yale is rethinking the standards for both parts of the program--standards they once described as difficult to meet. A Feb. 24 article in the Yale Herald announcing Mr. Hashemi's presence as a special student reported that "the bar for admission is set high so that potential part-time Yalies must be as qualified as their full-schedule counterparts." Yale College dean Peter Salovey told the Herald that "The [special students programs] are very selective."

That was back in February. Last week, Yale's president, Richard Levin, issued a statement saying that a review he had ordered "raised questions whether the admissions practices of the non-degree Special Student Program have been consistent with the published criteria, let alone the standard that should prevail." He noted that "in recent years, while fewer than 10% of the applicants to the regular undergraduate program have received offers of admission, more than 75% of the applicants to the non-degree program have been admitted."

Mr. Levin's conclusion was that both the nondegree and Whitney special programs "suffer from lack of clarity about mission, purpose, and standards." He ordered they undergo a full review to define "admissions criteria consistent with the high standards and moral purposes of a leading institution of higher learning." The Yale Daily News reported that in an interview Mr. Levin made clear that Mr. Hashemi's pending application in the Whitney program will be held to the same standard as that of a regular applicant.

Clinton Taylor and Debbie Bookstaber, two young Yale grads who became so frustrated at their alma mater's refusal to answer questions about its Taliban Man that they launched a protest called NailYale, say they are encouraged. "The notion that there are 'moral purposes' to an institution of higher learning is a refutation of the culture of nihilism that led Yale to welcome Hashemi in the first place," Mr. Taylor told me. "Without admitting or confronting the full error of its decision, I think Yale is laying the groundwork to reject him, without looking like they were pressured into it." Ms. Bookstaber agrees, and notes that if Yale now admits Mr. Hashemi as a full-degree seeking student it will be inviting a fresh firestorm of outrage from the 19,300 students who applied to Yale's 2010 undergraduate class but were rejected last month.

Meanwhile, Yale faces a new challenge. In the next few days the university may hire Juan Cole, a history professor at the University of Michigan, to fill a new spot as a professor of contemporary Middle East studies.

Mr. Cole's appointment would be problematic on several fronts. First, his scholarship is largely on the 19th-century Middle East, not on contemporary issues. "He has since abandoned scholarship in favor of blog commentary," says Michael Rubin, a Yale graduate and editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Mr. Cole's postings at his blog, Informed Comment, appear to be a far cry from scholarship. They feature highly polemical writing and dubious conspiracy theories.

In justifying all the time he spends on his blog, Mr. Cole told the Yale Herald that "when you become a public intellectual, it has the effect of dragging you into a lot of mud." Mr. Cole has done his share of splattering. He calls Israel "the most dangerous regime in the Middle East." That ties in with his recurring theme that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee effectively controls Congress and much of U.S. foreign policy. In an article titled "Dual Loyalties," he wrote, "I simply think that we deserve to have American public servants who are centrally commited [sic] to the interests of the United States, rather than to the interests of a foreign political party," namely Israel's right-wing Likud, which was the ruling party until Ariel Sharon formed the centrist Kadima Party. Mr. Cole claims that "pro-Likud intellectuals" routinely "use the Pentagon as Israel's Gurkha regiment, fighting elective wars on behalf of Tel Aviv."

Last January, Mr. Cole participated in a "teach-in" at Yale that could have been an audition for his possible hiring. According to the Yale Daily News, he told students that U.S. efforts "in helping create a constitution for the 'new Iraq' have increased factionalism." He concluded that "this is a recipe for continued social turmoil and continued global war."

Mr. Cole says that he is often unfairly attacked for being anti-Semitic, when in reality he claims he is only critical of Israeli policy. But Michael Oren, a visiting fellow at Yale, notes that in February 2003 Mr. Cole wrote on his blog that "Apparently [President Bush] has fallen for a line from the neo-cons in his administration that they can deliver the Jewish vote to him in 2004 if only he kisses Sharon's ass." Mr. Oren says "clearly that's anti-Semitism; that's not a criticism of Israeli policy." (Exit polls showed that 74% of the Jewish vote went to John Kerry.)

Mr. Cole appears to be the only prominent academic in America to have embraced "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," a highly controversial paper by John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard. Mr. Cole told the Chicago Sun-Times yesterday that the paper argues the "virtually axiomatic" point held by the rest of the world that a "powerful pro-Israel lobby exists." The result is that "U.S. policy toward the Middle East has been dangerously skewed."

But the paper has been roundly attacked for sloppy generalizations. The two authors claim that "neither strategic nor moral arguments can account for America's support for Israel." Even Noam Chomsky, a far-left critic of Israel, wrote that we "have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion." But Mr. Cole praises the two professors for seeking "to end the taboo [on discussions of the "Israel lobby"], enforced by knee-jerk accusations of anti-Semitism."

Mr. Cole wants to enforce his own taboos on free expression. In February, he told the Detroit Metro Times that the federal government should close the leading cable news channel. "I think it is outrageous that Fox Cable News is allowed to run that operation the way it runs it," he said in summarizing his view that Fox "is polluting the information environment." He went on to claim that "in the 1960s the FCC would have closed it down. It's an index of how corrupt our governmental institutions have become, that the FCC lets this go on."

Appointing someone as hotheaded and intolerant as Mr. Cole to a prestigious appointment at Yale wouldn't seem to make any sense. The drive to hire him can be explained in part by the same impulses that prompted Yale to admit Mr. Hashemi. "Perhaps the folks who still want to let Taliban Man into the degree program are also thinking Cole would make a great faculty advisor for him," jokes Mr. Taylor, the alumnus leading the NailYale protest.

But that might not be a joke. Many Yale faculty members are deadly serious about wanting Mr. Cole to become their newest colleague, and their views hold great sway. Unlike at Harvard, the university president at Yale has no power to veto the faculty's hiring choice. So even if the admissions department rejects Mr. Hashemi's application for the fall semester, Yale may jump out of the Taliban frying pan and into the Cole fire.

Clarification

Prof. Cole says that the statement that he "calls Israel 'the most dangerous regime in the Middle East' " is libelous because what he really wrote was, "The most dangerous regime to United States interests in the Middle East is that of Ariel Sharon."
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HeiGou
04-29-2006, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Shukria
I don't think there's any govt. dat follows the Shariah word by word...It's just one of the signs of Yamul Qiyamma...
Hmmm, but wouldn't that mean that the signs of Yamul Qiyamma have been going on since, oh, the death of Ali?
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HeiGou
04-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Åhmed
America isnt the sole provider. Allah will provide for them (that is, for the Taliban). Sorry if you find that funny, but I'll laugh at you for finding it funny.
I am happy to provide some level of amusement, but the cheap shot would be to ask whether you have ever thought about the oddity of God providing so much for kafirs and so little for Muslims. But I won't. I'll ask the more theologically interesting - in the West God is widely said to help those who help themselves. I believe Muslims says something similar to the effect that God does not change anyone's circumstance until they make an effort. Do you think that relying on God alone is enough or if you have to make an effort to provide for a real economy, what are the first steps in doing that?

Which of course still does not change the fact that billions of people are alive today because America has created so much wealth in the world.
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cool_jannah
04-29-2006, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I am happy to provide some level of amusement, but the cheap shot would be to ask whether you have ever thought about the oddity of God providing so much for kafirs and so little for Muslims. But I won't.
Why? Don't you wanna know why the kuffar have been gieven so much?
Since this world is like a paradise for the kuffar, they are allowed to live their lives to the fullest, whatever they can enjoy, all their good deeds are paid off right in this world. Once they die in the state of disbelief, thats it, eternal burning, which is a lot of burning. Yet, the kuffar are so arrogant and full of themselves that they refuse to accept the Oneness of their Lord who created and them and provided them with all of what they needed. I see the kuffar as the biggest losers who will soon realize what they have put themselves into.

Originally Posted by HeiGou

I'll ask the more theologically interesting - in the West God is widely said to help those who help themselves. I believe Muslims says something similar to the effect that God does not change anyone's circumstance until they make an effort. Do you think that relying on God alone is enough or if you have to make an effort to provide for a real economy, what are the first steps in doing that?
Absolutely ture. You make sense Heigu once in a while:).
The first steps are that the Muslims come back to the Shari'a of Islam.

Originally Posted by HeiGou
Which of course still does not change the fact that billions of people are alive today because America has created so much wealth in the world.
Nonsense. What America has done is the opposite. They have killed more people (by making weapons of mass destruction) than they have saved. People forget easily all those atrocities that America has done.
I did not expect something so absurd to come from you heiguo. Here is a link. Perhaps this might enlighten you with some of the favors of America on the world in general
Chronology of American State Terrorism
Reply

HeiGou
04-29-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by cool_jannah
Why? Don't you wanna know why the kuffar have been gieven so much?
Well I would but I doubt that the discussion would get very far or be particularly productive.

Since this world is like a paradise for the kuffar, they are allowed to live their lives to the fullest, whatever they can enjoy, all their good deeds are paid off right in this world. Once they die in the state of disbelief, thats it, eternal burning, which is a lot of burning. Yet, the kuffar are so arrogant and full of themselves that they refuse to accept the Oneness of their Lord who created and them and provided them with all of what they needed. I see the kuffar as the biggest losers who will soon realize what they have put themselves into.
So we are being actively rewarded for our disbelief? Wow. That's an odd concept.

Absolutely ture. You make sense Heigu once in a while:).
The first steps are that the Muslims come back to the Shari'a of Islam.
Reasonable enough I suppose although it is worth pointing out the Afghan economy collapsed and was in free fall.

Nonsense. What America has done is the opposite. They have killed more people (by making weapons of mass destruction) than they have saved. People forget easily all those atrocities that America has done.
I did not expect something so absurd to come from you heiguo. Here is a link.
Of course you expected something so absurd from me - I am a kafir remember!

But the claim they have killed more with WMD (when in fact America has killed very few people) than they have saved (how do you calculate how many people Hitler or Communism might have killed if not for the Americans?) is wrong. Besides it does not include the benefits of economic and scientific progress.

The last 70 years of the 20th century saw the biggest increase in the world's population in human history. The following table shows when each billion milestone was met:

* 1 billion was reached in 1802.
* 2 billion was reached 125 years later in 1927.
* 3 billion was reached 34 years later in 1961.
* 4 billion was reached 13 years later in 1974.
* 5 billion was reached 13 years later in 1987.
* 6 billion was reached 12 years later in 1999.

From the figures above, the world's population has tripled in 72 years, and doubled in 38 years up to the year of 1999.

Including a few more estimates (beginning with 250 million around AD 950 and ending with 8 billion in 2027), the world population was doubled by the following years (doubling times in parentheses):

* AD 950 (650) 1600 (202) 1802 (125) 1927 (47) 1974 (50) 2027,

or (beginning with 375 million around year 1420):

* 1420 (300) 1720 (155) 1875 (86) 1961 (38) 1999.

So about two thirds of the world's population are alive today because of American economic and scientific leadership. The period of American domination has been a period of enormous economic and hence population growth.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
04-29-2006, 05:54 PM
So , some people dont care about economy.

You see the problem with america is that your Economy comes First then your idiology. Why? because if a man has alot of money he can get away with anything in america with many lawyers.

However in Afghanistan under taliban theyre idiology came first safety of the people then economy. You seem to misunderstand everything under the taliban heigou. They had to first secure the country. Not any govt in this world did it but the taliban did. Let them secure the country first then economy comes in. Thats a MASS misconception about the taliban. Theyre economy. Let them secure the country first which they never got a complete chance to do however they did accomplish what others have failed and that is take over 95 percent of hte land.
Reply

hanifi
04-29-2006, 06:02 PM
Well, these people expect the Taliban or any other Muslim leadership to become 'enlightened' somehow and start blooming in all fields. They need to understand that the Taliban were only making order out of the chaos left behind after the cold war. Afghanistan was a country that was played with. They isolated the Taliban because they followed Shari'a! Not because of any other reason.
Reply

mahdisoldier19
04-29-2006, 06:26 PM
AL HAMDULILLAH Someone finally understands Hanifi you have my total respect.


I gurantee you heigou if you were living in afghanistan after the soviet invasion you would of killed and raped if it hadnt been for taliban. they disarmed the whole country and kept peace.

Name me 1 thing that was wrong with the taliban just 1. And i will refute your evidence
Reply

aamirsaab
04-29-2006, 10:20 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
AL HAMDULILLAH Someone finally understands Hanifi you have my total respect.


I gurantee you heigou if you were living in afghanistan after the soviet invasion you would of killed and raped if it hadnt been for taliban. they disarmed the whole country and kept peace.

Name me 1 thing that was wrong with the taliban just 1. And i will refute your evidence
You can praise the taliban all you want but it will change nothing. If you really want sharia law, then work for it and implement it through the proper stages i.e. in the UK, get in to power (prime minister etc) and then try it - praising the taliban and sharia law on an internet forum will not change the world wide view: actions speak louder than words.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-29-2006, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou

[indent]JOHN FUND ON THE TRAIL

Cole Fire
Yale is set to ditch Taliban Man and may hire a notorious anti-Israel professor.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE ANTI-ISRAEL PROFFESSOR ;D
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-30-2006, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
no1 knows the taliban. This is quite the pointless debate, WHO KNOWS THEM? if u do u'd hav been interogated by now!!

assalaamu alaykum,

as others have pointed out it is our duty to get to know this movement to find out why they have had so many bad things written about them.

also, although it is not possible to go get an appointment with Mullah Muhammad Omar anymore, like you used to be able to do when he ran afghanistan but still you can talk to students and ulema who travelled to afghanistan to get a better idea of what they were doing there.

Allah (swt) has clearly told us in the Quran to check up on matters when people are spoken against,

O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. Quran 49:6

Since embracing islam i have gone out of my way to speak to some of the ulema who travelling in afghanistan during the years of the taliban and even some students who went there to help out and all of them tell me the same things over and over again,

that they were sincere and truthful always.
that they provided justice even if might seem harsh to those outside of islam.
they were pious.
they only did things according to what Allah and his messenger (saws) commanded and in this it annoyed a lot of Muslims who do not live their life in this manner.

i want to finish this post with a story a brother told me...
that during the days of the Taliban his brother has been working in afghanistan and whilst there two youths had eloped from a local village as their elders would not let them marry being of different tribes, now for those who dont know, Pushtans dont usually allow their daughters to marry out of the tribe and that doesnt matter if the tribe is 500 strong or 50,000 strong.

anyway, so the young man and woman run off, and the two families being on good terms chase after them together looking to bring them to justice.

on finding them hidden in a shack they take them before a Taliban Qadi (islamic judge) and demand the shariah punishment for zina (sex outside marriage). The judge says "do you have four witnesses?"

the two families reply they have over 50 witnesses who went to find them and found them in the shack.

The judge then is bemused and says "50 witnesses to the act?"

they say yes.

the judge says "so over 50 witnesses saw the pen go in the ink well?"

the families now say no but they saw them together, but this of-course is not the islamic requirement for proving zina so the judge had the couple freed and had each of those 50 witnesses flogged 10 times for giving false witness.

subhanallah! this is justice as it should be practiced in islam, yes the Taliban were sometimes harsh but it was necessary given their circumstances of running a country that was so badly governed before where women and sometimes even boys were not free to walk the street without sexual predators of the likes of the soldiers of the northern alliance coming after them.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-30-2006, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
u neva met them n u call them such things? thats not right!
I never met Hitler either, but I know some of what he did.
I never met Bush either, but I know some of what he did.
O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. Quran 49:6

peace upon those who follow righteous guidence wilberhum,

God tells us in the Quran to varify news when it comes to us, please understand that when i speak to those who had family in taliban controlled afghanistan or to scholars and students of knowledge who went their themselves then all they tell me is good.

however, the western media tells me something bad. who should i believe, those who are pious and trustworthy and whom i have never known to lie, not even once or organisations who make their living exagerating and lying about others?

insha'Allah (God willing) you come to look at the true record of what they did, not the false record that is continuously put out by the western media.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Daw'ud
Reply

mahdisoldier19
04-30-2006, 05:02 AM
Dawud has put it in perfect Times Dua for you brother
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-30-2006, 05:32 AM
Assalaamu Alaykum, (peace be upon you)

Ok apologies for the long rant... those of you who don’t want to read then hit dont bother...
ok still here?

also been nice and done some translations of the words used for the non-muslims present.

Ps… there is also a useful links section at the bottom of what I have written for those who want to read about the Taliban from first hand accounts by better writers than myself.

Right...

First of all I make no apologies for being an unashamed fan of the Taliban and emir al muminin (leader of the faithful), Mullah Omar and to be honest I had these views before I embraced Islam, perhaps it was my Tory boy mentality recognising a fellow hanger and flogger! (Or be-header and flogger anyway) but to me here was a movement that took a country in absolute anarchy and turned it into something else.

But really it was no more than admiration for a movement and man who got things going for the better in the most appalling circumstances. I could see they went from almost nothing to the rulers of the nation (well other than the 10% the northern alliance controlled) and cut opium poppy production to almost zero (well other than the 10% the northern alliance controlled) so that was all I really knew about the Taliban before I came to Islam and I couldn’t understand why the US had turned against them but really it didn’t much concern me as it was on the other side of the world so who cares? Or at least that was my attitude then.

After I came to Islam I also looked at this movement who the world called evil and the enemies of mankind or so the yanks would have us believe and I couldn’t square with what they had actually done.

Anyone who wants to discuss women's rights and the Taliban should first look at the situation before they came to power, a read through the 1995 amnesty international Afghanistan report on women’s rights should be a good start.

Women, Afghanistan (1996)

There was no effective government in Afghanistan, when a town was taken over by a faction then rape was the norm. I would ask anyone to read that report and if you do not cry for the suffering of your sisters then I would doubt the strength your imaan (faith).

So as someone pointed out, the Taliban rose in the defence of women's rights, the right not to be raped, murdered in honour killings and treated as a chattel of her father who in afghan culture is free to keep the Mahr of his daughter, which often led to her being forced into marriage to the highest bidder. Some brothers I know from there even speak of the worst offenders at this literally taking their daughters to the market place to show her off like a prize horse or cow before sale.

This was the status of the women in Afghanistan before the Taliban for the vast majority of the population excect a small elite of women who were linked with the former communist regime and were very liberal in their views and were later to go on to become a thorn in the side of the Taliban and the source of most of the outrageous stories and lies regarding the Taliban that were sent to the west.

The Taliban came to prominence in the defence of women and in Mullah Omar leading his students (Taliban means students in Pushtu, although I think it means two students in Arabic) against the local warlords to rescue girls who had been kidnapped for rape by the warlords men or taken as ‘wives’ by the local warlord for himself or his favourites, a practice that usually meant his men would turn up at the house and demand the girl, if she wasn’t handed over they would shoot her dead, if she went with them the best she could hope for was to be given to one man to be raped and not gang raped by all of them.

From village to village they went, picking up more arms and religious students along the way before taking towns and cities and finally Kabul, the capital. This really was a religious revival movement for all its minor flaws.

Throughout this time they destroyed each warlord, or asked him to lay down his heavy arms (some say they let them keep their AK47 which I think count as a fashion accessory not a weapon in Afghanistan) as not all warlords were evil, some were just the local village headman trying to prevent his village being attacked and his people molested. Many of these men went on to join the Taliban movement and throughout its time so far the Taliban has never numbered more than a hardcore 10,000 religious students and many of these smaller militia who helped them rise to power.

Now many of the more evil despicable warlords as well as Tribal leaders formed at this point the northern alliance, a loose alliance of northern clans and the worse of the warlords who the Taliban would never accept into their ranks and they even took money and arms from their former enemies the Russians!

The Taliban once in government though even offered to negotiate with these people and offered them amnesty and some even positions in the government, Kazai the present apostate puppet ruler of the small part of Afghanistan the Americans fully control in Kabul was even offered the role of UN ambassador which he refused.

Despite claims to the opposite, the Taliban was never a racist Asabiyyah (asabiyyah meaning racism or tribalism) based organisation and some of the Afghanis who live in my area are ethnic Tajiks and Uzbeks and are still in favour of the Taliban over anything else in Afghanistan either now or in the past and often viewed their own militia as little more than bandits. The Taliban was never 100% Pushtan although they formed the majority of the Taliban and are a majority in the country but other ethnic minorities as well as Muslims from all over the world joined the Taliban including Western reverts.

The Taliban is a hardcore Jihadi organisation, lets not say it wasn’t because it is, they used the camps funded by the CIA to oust the Soviets to train any Muslim who came for military training, but when some military training is at least Mustahaab (recommended) or some Hanafi scholars say Wajib (obligatory) this was only them helping other Muslims fulfil their Islamic duties.

Also, like most of the factions in Afghanistan, the Taliban had made use of Opium poppy production to raise funds in its early days and many of the former warlords who made up allied militia movements certainly sold opium but early in their rule, Mullah Omar phased out opium production until it was almost at zero % from the Taliban controlled zone and almost all opium was coming from the northern Alliance.

Ok, this is dragging on a bit so I will wrap up after covering two issues others have touched upon in the past and often get eaten up about, firstly the status of women UNDER the Taliban and the destruction of the two Buddha Statues.

Now what was the status of women under the Taliban?

Probably a little less than it should be under Islam, but still far greater than most women were used to in Afghanistan, for example the Taliban never banned girls from attending schools in Kabul as was widely reported. What they did was ban teenage girls from the streets for several months after their conquest whilst there were so many Mujahadeen on the streets.

They also removed all girls from co-ed schools and although they intended to build girls schools, they never got the opportunity to do so given the severe conditions due to the drought and sanctions that were leading to starvation amongst the people, these sanctions put in place by the West.

Now another widely reported story was that the Taliban removed the women from mixed wards in Kabul, there were even pictures at the time of them doing this and everyone said how evil they were. What wasn’t told in those pictures (supplied by those Munafiq liberal women) was that they were being moved to a brand new state of the art hospital that had been funded by the Kuwaiti royals and specialised in maternity and women’s medicine. When the Media shy Taliban finally got to releasing their own version of the story it only made a couple of paragraph clarification in the broadsheets and was ignored in the tabloids and TV who allowed the lies against the Taliban to stand.

One of the top education priorities of the Taliban was female doctors and medical staff but this was bombed into the stone ages like everything else by the Americans after September 11th.

Did the Taliban prevent women from going out in the street?

Well only when they immediately took a city or town, otherwise no. Brothers I know from Afghanistan said usually the markets had more women in them than men and they would meet there and chat. Yes some women would be prevented from going out, but this is part of the Pushtan tribal culture and the families that prevented their women from going out then and still preventing them from going out now so it is hardly a good argument to make against the Taliban.

No, the reason the west thinks the Taliban oppressed women is their forcing them to cover which is perfectly correct and proper in Islam. We have to remember the Taliban were trying to drag the society up around them from a very low base point where Jahiliyyah (cultural attitudes, actions and ideas that contradict islam) towards women were common and I have seen for myself that scholars need to reform people at a pace that is possible for them to follow.


Now what about those two statues of Buddha that the Taliban destroyed…?

Now maybe the rest of you read a different Seerah than I did, or maybe you believed Hamza Yusuf and other liberal scholars when they tell you the only statues destroyed were those in Kabaa but to be blunt this is a total lie against Rasoolullah (saws) (Rasoolullah means prophet of God) and it is authentically reported It was narrated that ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Do not tell lies about me. Whoever tells lies about me, let him enter the Fire.’” (Sahih Bukhari - the most authentic book of sayings and actions of the prophet Muhammad saws)

After the conquest of Mekkah the prophet Muhammad (saws) sent expeditions out over the whole of Arabia with a mission to destroy any idol or anything being worshiped as an idol. Yes people were free to believe what they wanted and were not forced to convert but their public idols and trees and rocks they worshipped were destroyed and smashed by the Muslim armies on the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the rightly guided Kalif’s. (a Kalif is the islamic leader of the whole muslim world)

Finally… What about Osama Bin Ladin you say?

Well did you know that Mullah Omar ordered the arrest of his own son in law (OBL is reportedly married to Emir al Muminin’s daughter, though there is some dispute over this matter) when the allegation of the world trade centre attacks was made?

He was placed under house arrest, the Taliban said Pushtan custom and Islamic law forbid them handing him over to the kuffar authorities but if they supplied them the evidence they would put him on trial themselves. The Americans said give him to us or share the same fate. Mullah Omar said give the evidence to another Muslim land and if we are satisfied he will get a fair trail according to Shariah we will hand him over. Once again the Americans refused this very reasonable offer and it was shortly after this the bombs started dropping. At the time the bombs were dropping the Taliban had even sent peace envoys to America but George W just didn’t want to meet them and they ended up touring the East Coast Universities and some of the talks the main peace envoy gave are available on the net.

Finally with no evidence and no Islamic reason they could hold him further they let him go, which islamically is the correct thing to do. We cannot make an allegation in Islam, give no evidence and expect someone to be handed over. You might not like the Taliban or OBL but here the Taliban but the only right thing they could do islamically.

OBL also acknowledges Mullah Omar as Emir Al-Muminin, or leader of the faithful which is the title given to the leader of the Muslims and alhamdilullah I am also happy to call him emir al-muminin despite some differences in ‘tactics’ with OBL, but who am I to have differences when he is on the front line and I am typing this from a safe comfortable home?

Ok, I will wrap up. Where does my knowledge of the Taliban come from? Well some of it comes from the internet, many articles were written on them by people who actually visited Afghanistan, unlike the western media and rent-a-scholars who condemned them and relied on reports coming out of Afghanistan supplied by Mushriks and Munafiqs like the women’s groups led by communists.

Other knowledge comes from talking to people who were there, or have family who were there or are even still there. Mashallah, some of the stories I have heard from people who were there first hand or have got it from trustworthy practicing Muslim relatives makes you want to weep for what we have lost as an Ummah with the TEMPORARY fall in the Taliban regime.

I have deliberately gone out of my way to find out the truth and dig it out no matter whether I liked it or not and alhamdilullah I liked what I found a lot.

Say what you like about the Taliban but they are the ONLY Government of a Muslim country that has attempted to bring in shariah in its entirety! Subhanallah the only Islamic state on the planet and what happened? The rest of the Muslims in the world looked the other way whilst 10’s of thousands of their brothers and sisters were butchered and killed and raped by the kuffar.

Here are some other links brothers and sisters might find useful.

Understanding the Reasons for Talibân Defiance
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0019.htm

Women’s Status – Pre-Taliban, Amnesty
Women, Afghanistan (1996)

U.N. States Opium is gone from Afghanistan
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0010.htm

Taliban: The World Needs Iconoclasts
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0007.htm

"The Taliban are well liked"
A Japanese doctor's up-close observations contradict overseas reports
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0028.htm

The Taliban and Women
Credit to azzam.com – former site run by Babar Ahmad
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0009.htm

Reporter praises Taleban 'honour'
BBC News | UK | Reporter praises Taleban 'honour'

Mullah Omar is NOT for sale
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0023.htm

Human Rights Abusers Condemn Taliban over Alleged Dress Code
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0008.htm

American Journalists Set the Story Straight on Afghanistan
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0021.htm

Afghanistân - A Personal (first-hand) Glimpse - pre-attacks
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/contemporary/0018.htm

Afghanistan in General – post Taliban
Warning! Some of these links coming from this site are very distressing for people of imaan.
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/cont.../tia_index.htm

If you have read this far then Jazakallah khair (may God reward you with Good) for your patience, I can tell you this took some time to write but as you can guess the slander of the Taliban and Emir Al-Muminin, Mullah Omar by the Kuffar and even worse! – Muslims in the west makes my blood boil and I felt a proper response was required.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Daw’ud
Reply

Malaikah
04-30-2006, 06:17 AM
:sl:

brother mashaallah that was an amazing read!!! jazakallah khair!!

:w:
Reply

A.P
04-30-2006, 06:22 AM
was a amazing & informative read
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2006, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. Quran 49:6

my point exactly akhee! No1s met the taliban and they've never been shown on TV or nething. Whats wiv all the legislations? there nothing BUT legislations!!!!!!
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-30-2006, 09:17 PM
:sl:

Thread closed on request.

:w:

:threadclo
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