Mingling and Mixing of sexes

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

If we look at every verse of the Qur’ân in search of a direct statement prohibiting a child from beating his parents, we will never find it. It is not there. However, the Qur’ân says: “Do not even say to them ‘uff’.” Can any rational person, after hearing this verse, claim that it is permissible for a son to beat up his mother and father?

Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments. Can anyone, after considering these and so many other rulings, assume that women and men are allowed to freely mingle and mix with one another?

The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. This would leave countless matters of life without an Islamic legal ruling. This would strip Islamic Law of one of its greatest qualities, which is its relevance to all times and circumstances.

It is absolutely clear from the texts that Islam does not allow men and women to meet each other whenever and however they like. It has placed clear regulations and restrictions upon such behavior and has defined the limits of interaction between men and women. Moreover, Islam has closed all doors that lead to temptation and promiscuity.

When we consider all of the laws governing the relationship between men and women in Islam, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Islam forbids any mixing between the sexes that might provide even the remotest possibility of temptation. Scholars of Islam throughout history have fully appreciated this fact. We can see it evidenced in the writings of the great jurists:

Al-Sarakhsî writes: “The judge should try women separately from men since people tend to crowd together in the courtroom. It is quite obvious that the mixing together of men and women under such crowded conditions is conducive to temptation and other distasteful consequences.” [al-Mabsût (16/80)]

Al-Nawawî writes: “Ibn al-Mundhir and others maintain that it is a matter of unanimous agreement that women are not obligated to attend the Jumu`ah prayers. However, his argument that this is because it brings about the mixing of women and men is not correct. The attendance of women at the Jumu`ah prayers does not necessarily bring about such mixing since the women stay behind the men.” [al-Majmû` (4/350)]

Al-Nawawî also writes: “One of the vilest innovations, that some ignorant people today are involved in, is the habit of lighting candles on Mount `Arafah on the ninth night. This behavior is gravely misguided and is full of improper goings-on such as the mixing of men and women.” [al-Majmû`: (8/140)]

In the law book entitled al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî, there is a discussion of when it is permissible to refuse an invitation to a wedding party. It says: “An invitation may be refused if there is any clear wrongdoing at the party, like the mixing of men and women.” [al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî (2/322)]

When scholars warn against the free mixing of men and women, they are not talking about the mere presence of men and women together in the same place. This is something that is definitely not prohibited by Islamic Law. Men and women gathered in the same place at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the mosque and in the marketplace. They walked down the same roads and public thoroughfares.

The mere presence of men and women in the same area is not a great cause for temptation. It would be wrong to treat this as unlawful mixing, since the reason for prohibiting free mixing does not exist in such circumstances. If someone were to prohibit men and women from frequenting the same public places under the pretext of preventing temptation, this would be taking matters to an extreme and imposing a restriction that is unduly severe. Such a policy is, moreover, unnatural and would impose great hardships on people’s lives.

At the same time, some circumstances are indisputably cases of unlawful mixing. This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact. Equally unlawful would be any occasion where unrelated women and men are seated next to one another. Under these circumstances, desires are kindled and temptations are greater and regrettable things happen, as is seen time and again in co-ed schools and mixed social events.

The same can be said for any repeated acquaintance between men and women. Repeated meetings break down the barriers between men and women and allow a relationship to develop between them.

We cannot compare situations like these to the general presence of men and women at shops and other open public places, especially when women are accompanied by their family. In such cases, there is no intimacy, no crowding, and no reason for suspicion. Preventing women from public places frequented by men in order to prevent temptation would be taking things to an extreme.

A woman is commanded in Islam not to come too close to men. She is not, however, prohibited from going to places where men are present as long as she does not approach them or place herself in a position where she is alone with them.

There can be no doubt that preventative legislation is an important part of Islamic Law. There are numerous rulings in Islam that are preventative in nature. However, this does not mean that we can legislate against every remote possibility of wrongdoing that we can think of. Doing so would be a violation of Islam’s tolerance and magnanimity and its ease of application. It would place too great a burden upon the believers.

People might differ as to the degree of mixing that is prohibited. We can, nonetheless, get a good approximation of proper limits by reviewing the laws of Islam that govern the relationship between men and women. The sacred texts provides ample evidence about how and when men and women can meet, how women should dress and conduct themselves when they go outside, and many other pertinent matters. It is impossible for free mixing between men and women to occur if Islamic Law is properly observed.

The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”
A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

Ibn Daqîq al-`خd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy. Al-Albânî classifies it as a good hadîth in Ghâyah al-Marâm (no. 403).]

4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `خd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission. Al-Albânî says: “This hadîth is authentic according to the conditions set down by Bukhârî and Muslim.”]

Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `آ’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `آ’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

One of `آishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

`آishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

There are two things that this shows us. First, `آ’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

(www.islamtoday.com)

[muslim_rose18]

im gonna read dis post carefully now..shuld be interesting. subhanAllah many people make excuses wen it cums 2 free mixing...the most famous ones: my intentions are pure..LOL wat a joke!!!!...

[Umm Khalid06]

interesting i've learnt new thing in islam. thank you

[------]

Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments.

Thats perfumes and anklets not allowed outside or in front if non-mehrams.

This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact.

That happens tooooooo much nowadays....:heated:

4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

Subhanallah........Allah knows best.

`Aishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

Subhanallah......Truly Allah is great!

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31]

If only Muslims nowadays would understand!! :heated:

Jazakallah for the post sis it was most informative :)

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[arehat]

Mashallah a gr8 post may we all take a lesson frm this Ameen

[dishdash]

Good post. Stay at home and none of this should ever be a problem.

[dishdash]

The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. [/url])

This is a very important point isn't it?

I'd be interested to see what people here think of that...

[Sahabiyaat]

MashaAllah! an excellent article
i've just skimmed through it, but i'll have to print it out and read it more carefully.

[NahidSarvy]

This is a very important point isn't it? I'd be interested to see what people here think of that...

I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.

[Umm Yoosuf]

I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.

The thread is about Mingling and Mixing of sexes which is forbidden in Islam!!! What are you going on about subhnallah!!!! Take about talking out of your own desires and opinions!!! Bring on your evidence:offended:

[------]

I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies? Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans. Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.

Don't change Islamic rules to suit your own desires and whims :rant: :rant:

[Silver Pearl]

Ukht nahid do not deprive us of your salaam firstly :salamext:

I disagree with the qiyâs because it is flawed. The arguments are flawed because the theory is unsound.

You can not come out with a statement like that without evidence. So next time i'll be expecting sound prove evidence. After all, you seem to consider the theory unsound i can only presume and conclude that you have something better to offer.

First, the Qur'ân says that we are not to make harâm that which is not harâm, yet what is being said?

It is ironic that people will use the Qur'an to misinterpret and use certain verses to aid their view point. Isn't the world becoming so sad....

Second, why are there ahadith saying a woman should not flaunt herself in public if she isn't allowed around men? There's a flaw in thinking there, I think.

The important factor in your statement is the part i highlighted. I think that brussel sprouts should be demolished from the face of this earth. That is my opinion, it has no basis apart from the fact that i do not like that vegetable. Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is not going to deprive all human kind from eating sprouts just because i have distaste for it. It is merely my opinion, baseless just like what you have stated.

Third, a large percentage of human beings are not of one sex or another - one in 1000 is visibly intersexed at birth, and even more are intersexed without immediate visible sign. How can we separate the sexes when they are not even clearly demarkated in real life (i.e. outside of a Jurist's head)? Do we just ignore all those people who are born differently?

Hermaphodites, klinfelter's syndrome etc Although people like these exist they choose one sex over the other. I’m not going to dish out the A-Z on the subject but we are not talking about the case of people who suffer from such diseases. That is another issue which is of little relevance to the main topic.

And what about people whose gender does not match their bodies?

See above comment

Muslim societies have accepted, for example, women working and living as men because of circumstance in the Balkans.

And point being? Just because society excepts it does not make it right, i'm sure even you can see the flaws in your own conclusion.

Is a woman flaunting herself if she has to go to work with an entire crowd of men without a mahram - there being no mahram for her? The answer has been no, because a working woman is treated like any other person in her position, not like a sex object, by her Muslim (and non-Muslim, where appropriate) coworkers. This dates back to ancient times, and the punishment for illicit sex is very severe and studiously observed - no such person gets pregnant.

You seem to juxtapose two extremes of female characteristics by the terminologies you use. If one flaunts it implies to beautify and to show off. However, there are women who dress modestly and work. Perhaps you have missed the point or perhaps you have no desire to see what is being discussed here but to go into a rant about what you perceive to be a mistreatment on behalf of women. Eventhough i understand what you may be trying to get across i think you have missed the message the article was supposed to give.

Intermingling between sexes is not allowed without a purpose. It is not saying that for a male and female who are non-mahram to speak to one another is forbidden. All that is being said is that one should not engage in idle chit chat with the opposite sex.

Let us not argue with the creator here, the fact of the matter still is that our lord knows what is best for us. No time nor circumstances is going to change these laws.

It is not for you or anyone here including myself to come to any conclusion without ilm (knowledge).

My thoughts on how medieval jurists' rulings break down when you leave their coddled little mental world.

Right....

Please stay on topic in future references.

[NahidSarvy]

The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

Ah, herein lies the rub. It is not prohibited in the Qur'ân, yet it is prohibited by interpretation? That is opinion too, you know. Just because I'm not ibn Hanbal doesn't mean I can't reason with my mind.

The conclusions raised about the separation of the sexes are misguided. And, unlike the authors who write otherwise, I make no statement that this is not an issue of opinion. In fact, so much of Islam is opinion. It's reasoning - on an individual basis by people, by "schools" (madhâhab), by cultural tradition.

I gave my reasons why they are misguided. The issue is modesty, not of creating an artificial set of mutually inseparable categories and ensuring they are walled apart as a total solution.

[Khayal]

:sl:

Long but beneficial sharing, jazaak ALLAH khair.:rose:

:w:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Wow, i thought no one would both to read it because of it's length:p.
Jazak-Allah khayr for the feed back!
And Navid... what exactly is your problem with the article? I think it sends out a great message!
:w:

[NahidSarvy]

And Navid... what exactly is your problem with the article? I think it sends out a great message!

Peace, ~Mu'MiNaH~.

I don't agree that the message is the correct interpretation of God's wishes. God wishes us to be modest, not avoid all contact with half of the human race. Moreover, it is a justification used to keep women "in their place" by the ignorant. Moreover, it is ridiculously implausible to live that way.

So that's my problem with the article.

[dishdash]

No you are not. Far from it.

But I would like to reign you down on the point you made about you not being ibn Hanbal. This gets to the crux of the matter - The common modern argument about us all being allowed to make ijtihad is a dodgy one - is that what you are referring to on these matters?

[NahidSarvy]

But I would like to reign you down on the point you made about you not being ibn Hanbal. This gets to the crux of the matter - The common modern argument about us all being allowed to make ijtihad is a dodgy one - is that what you are referring to on these matters?

Peace, Dishdash.

I don't claim to be ibn Hanbal, but I do think there is a degree of choice and exegesis expected of each Believer. I think that, however wondrous and scholarly, ancient experts of the Qur'ân are neither the end of the line nor are they perfect. I happen to see much misogyny coming from jurists, To be fair, some of them recognised and criticised, for example, certain hadîth authors for saying things about women that seem to contradict both the Prophet's life and the Qur'ân - the Father of the Kittens (Abû Hurayra), his sweet name notwithstading, is one of those authors whom classical jurists have chosen to politely note as having a bias against women.

But nonetheless, there is a need for the doors of ijtihad to be reopened, yes, and they are just cracking open. There are not nearly enough trained scholars; god willing I will be able someday to write something of merit, but we need an entire generation with a new perspective.

In the meantime, I read what limited scholarship there is available that seems to seek out the classical techniques - authors whose work is drowning in a tsunami of "instamullahs" who do not have the learning to make the endless fatawâ they do. I am inspired by scholars like Abou el Fadl, whose work on Beauty in Islam made me change my mind about many things about Islam. I also have read works by a variety of other authors, including Wadud and Barlas.

This is not to say I limit myself, but there is such a dearth of modern scholars who are not drowning inside politics and the texts.

I cannot render legal opinions, nor would I pretend to. But as Muslims, we should be open to variable interpretations - the idea of tolerance is important. (Yes, Abou el Fadl collected essays by many scholars under a title like this, but I haven't read it yet.) I am willing to listen and learn from a variety of sources, and this includes attending the local MSA Sisters' Group - where I am the only unveiled woman (though I wear a kufi or the like so as not to disrespect the community).

Sorry if this seems like a rant. It's not. It's just an attempt to express that there are more opinions than those circulated over the internet. Sometimes, when I read a "new" post here, I search for some words and find the same post on some dozen or even hundred other places. These essays are so often uncredited. When we are deluged by a hundred of these copycat essays, it is very hard to swim towards the truth. I feel drowned in the pile of demands on my behaviour, unable to disagree.

And at the bottom level, we all agree it is right to disagree in Islam. I mean, unless I claim to be the Prophet (or to be God - LOL), there is no compulsion. Sisters say it is wrong to wear the veil unless you want to - I have heard here stories of women who removed it when they realised they wore it out of family or cultural expectations, only to years later don it when they wanted to because of their love for God.

I don't mean to offend people. Maybe I came off as brusque in this thread, or elsewhere, but I get frustrated when one particular notion of what it means to be Muslim is turned into a creed that everyone must obey.

I should be free to express my dissention. We get people who aren't Muslim who say all sorts of terrible things. But sometimes I feel that a Muslim who disagrees with community opinion is unacceptable when an outsider is free to say all sorts of extremely critical things.

I'm not here to create trouble, but to talk about Islam. And there are more that one understanding of the practices of Islam, and these should be respected.

Anyway, that's all for now.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The thread is about Mingling and Mixing of sexes which is forbidden in Islam!!! What are you going on about subhnallah!!!! Take about talking out of your own desires and opinions!!! Bring on your evidence:offended:

completely agree with you, some people just pick on the most minor details, shaytaan gives excuses for everything i gess :rollseyes

[Silver Pearl]

I would like everyone to refrain from addressing others (whether they be Muslim or not) with insultive terminologies.


Nahid

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument.

I don't claim to be ibn Hanbal,

At least we have all acknowledged that you’re not trying to elevate your status to the likes of knowledgeable scholars.

but I do think there is a degree of choice and exegesis expected of each Believer.

Although your statement is correct you phrased it poorly, a flaw which could cause anyone to fall into the wrong pit really. Everyone of us as muslims should acquire knowledge. There is an element of choice in the matter, after all we are beings with free-will and thus everything we do has a degree of choice.

I think that, however wondrous and scholarly, ancient experts of the Qur'ân are neither the end of the line nor are they perfect.

I do not recall any scholar saying that they were perfect. Thus it would be idiotic (to phrase it clumsily) for us to even think that these scholars attributed themselves to being perfected. One should not pour words into others mouth.


Ancient experts of the Quran are not the end of the line and no one has said that but rather we can not demolish their work simply because it does not quite fit in with our new 'modern' ways of life.

I happen to see much misogyny coming from jurists, To be fair, some of them recognised and criticised, for example, certain hadîth authors for saying things about women that seem to contradict both the Prophet's life and the Qur'ân - the Father of the Kittens (Abû Hurayra), his sweet name notwithstading, is one of those authors whom classical jurists have chosen to politely note as having a bias against women.

You baffle me with some of the commnets you make, it seems clear that you have a sweet tooth for ripping apart the likes of respected scholars and you have gone to the extent of naming Abu Hurayra (rahimullah) as being baised towards women. the implication. Ah, my only advice would be that it is best and wise for you to study Islam without holding ideologies based on what you believe should be Islam.

Opinions are of little weight, actually opinions are insignificant and as you continue to hurl your thoughts it will be viewed lightly as you have no prove. As i stated before bring forth evidence for your spouting and all shall be fine. If you can not then say nothing.

But nonetheless, there is a need for the doors of ijtihad to be reopened, yes, and they are just cracking open. There are not nearly enough trained scholars; god willing I will be able someday to write something of merit, but we need an entire generation with a new perspective.

The doors of ijtihad are always open....open to those who have ilm (knowledge) not the next random person who has read few books here and there and is unwary of much of its interpretation.

In the meantime, I read what limited scholarship there is available that seems to seek out the classical techniques - authors whose work is drowning in a tsunami of "instamullahs" who do not have the learning to make the endless fatawâ they do. I am inspired by scholars like Abou el Fadl, whose work on Beauty in Islam made me change my mind about many things about Islam. I also have read works by a variety of other authors, including Wadud and Barlas.

This is not to say I limit myself, but there is such a dearth of modern scholars who are not drowning inside politics and the texts.

there aren't limited scholars, rather the contrary but because your views are shared by such small percentage that are refuted by most scholars it is dismissed. It is evident that you do limit yourself, after all, you consider the number of scholars to be limited and that does give the impression that you only seem to have eyes for small portion of scholars. As for the rest you have a yearn to dismiss them because you do not approve.

I cannot render legal opinions, nor would I pretend to. But as Muslims, we should be open to variable interpretations - the idea of tolerance is important. (Yes, Abou el Fadl collected essays by many scholars under a title like this, but I haven't read it yet.) I am willing to listen and learn from a variety of sources, and this includes attending the local MSA Sisters' Group - where I am the only unveiled woman (though I wear a kufi or the like so as not to disrespect the community).

You contradict yourself, you have done the opposite of what you have said. As for you being the only unveiled sister in the MSA sister's group then that is your choice. Don't turn up with a kufi for firstly it is designed for men and secondly you should not care about people's opinion about you. If you're not going to veil yourself for God then don't do it for humans.

Sorry if this seems like a rant. It's not.

It is a rant but that does not matter....

It's just an attempt to express that there are more opinions than those circulated over the internet. Sometimes, when I read a "new" post here, I search for some words and find the same post on some dozen or even hundred other places. These essays are so often uncredited. When we are deluged by a hundred of these copycat essays, it is very hard to swim towards the truth. I feel drowned in the pile of demands on my behaviour, unable to disagree.

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument. (quoted from what i said at the beginning)

And at the bottom level, we all agree it is right to disagree in Islam. I mean, unless I claim to be the Prophet (or to be God - LOL), there is no compulsion.

Disagree is a word used too lightly which really means nothing in this context, be specific. I think what you meant to say is La ikraha fee deen (there is no complusion in deen). Don't be selective....that ayah which follows ayah al-kursi is alot longer. With a lot of meaning.....

Sisters say it is wrong to wear the veil unless you want to - I have heard here stories of women who removed it when they realised they wore it out of family or cultural expectations, only to years later don it when they wanted to because of their love for God.

And that is how it is....don't do something for others but for the creator.

I don't mean to offend people. Maybe I came off as brusque in this thread, or elsewhere, but I get frustrated when one particular notion of what it means to be Muslim is turned into a creed that everyone must obey.

Sabrun jameel

Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

I should be free to express my dissention. We get people who aren't Muslim who say all sorts of terrible things. But sometimes I feel that a Muslim who disagrees with community opinion is unacceptable when an outsider is free to say all sorts of extremely critical things.

You know the answer to it but you are reluctant to face up to it.

I'm not here to create trouble, but to talk about Islam. And there are more that one understanding of the practices of Islam, and these should be respected.

Respect works both ways.....you can't expect to get respect if you do not show respect in the first place. Nonetheless it is your call.

Anyway, that's all for now.

I think that is enough talk together unless you will surprise me with evidence to support your claims.

I would say :salamext: but you have a tendescy of not returning them.

[dishdash]

I would like everyone to refrain from addressing others (whether they be Muslim or not) with insultive terminologies.


Nahid

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument.

At least we have all acknowledged that you’re not trying to elevate your status to the likes of knowledgeable scholars.

Although your statement is correct you phrased it poorly, a flaw which could cause anyone to fall into the wrong pit really. Everyone of us as muslims should acquire knowledge. There is an element of choice in the matter, after all we are beings with free-will and thus everything we do has a degree of choice.

I do not recall any scholar saying that they were perfect. Thus it would be idiotic (to phrase it clumsily) for us to even think that these scholars attributed themselves to being perfected. One should not pour words into others mouth.

Ancient experts of the Quran are not the end of the line and no one has said that but rather we can not demolish their work simply because it does not quite fit in with our new 'modern' ways of life.

You baffle me with some of the commnets you make, it seems clear that you have a sweet tooth for ripping apart the likes of respected scholars and you have gone to the extent of naming Abu Hurayra (rahimullah) as being baised towards women. the implication. Ah, my only advice would be that it is best and wise for you to study Islam without holding ideologies based on what you believe should be Islam.

Opinions are of little weight, actually opinions are insignificant and as you continue to hurl your thoughts it will be viewed lightly as you have no prove. As i stated before bring forth evidence for your spouting and all shall be fine. If you can not then say nothing.

The doors of ijtihad are always open....open to those who have ilm (knowledge) not the next random person who has read few books here and there and is unwary of much of its interpretation.

there aren't limited scholars, rather the contrary but because your views are shared by such small percentage that are refuted by most scholars it is dismissed. It is evident that you do limit yourself, after all, you consider the number of scholars to be limited and that does give the impression that you only seem to have eyes for small portion of scholars. As for the rest you have a yearn to dismiss them because you do not approve.

You contradict yourself, you have done the opposite of what you have said. As for you being the only unveiled sister in the MSA sister's group then that is your choice. Don't turn up with a kufi for firstly it is designed for men and secondly you should not care about people's opinion about you. If you're not going to veil yourself for God then don't do it for humans.

It is a rant but that does not matter....

It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument. (quoted from what i said at the beginning)

Disagree is a word used too lightly which really means nothing in this context, be specific. I think what you meant to say is La ikraha fee deen (there is no complusion in deen). Don't be selective....that ayah which follows ayah al-kursi is alot longer. With a lot of meaning.....

And that is how it is....don't do something for others but for the creator.

Sabrun jameel

Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

You know the answer to it but you are reluctant to face up to it.

Respect works both ways.....you can't expect to get respect if you do not show respect in the first place. Nonetheless it is your call.

I think that is enough talk together unless you will surprise me with evidence to support your claims.

I would say :salamext: but you have a tendescy of not returning them.

Oh dear Pearly... I actually had a reasonable amount of respect for you from elsewhere, but you have chipped a whole hunk of it away as of this post.

You have points aplenty here - good ones. And yet you choose the path of sledging the sister - and taking great satisfaction in doing so. Almost self-congratulatory. Hmmm... where's the love?! Where's the hikma?! Haha! At least when I do that, I try and turn it around so the lesson is taken without complete humiliation. Well, sometimes anyway.


Nahid

"The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

I'd suggest having a look through this work.

Wasalaam

[NahidSarvy]

Peace, Silver Pearl

I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.

I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.

As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.

I have not issued any fatawâ. I have expressed my opinions in disagreement with the piece. I'm not sure what you mean about carrying down something said from your original post... I was replying to Dishdash.

I feel I brought forth my criticisms already to what was said in ~Mu'minah~'s post. It starts with a seed and then begins to construct an argument that women and men must not mingle.

I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.

And excuse me, but your statement

Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

is a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.

As for my choice of scholars, my heart moves with the tide of faith, and when I see wrongness, I listen to those who speak the truth. Claiming that we don't each make decisions about which scholars' works are more important to us is silly; we each decide, based on our faith, what we believe is true.

I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?

Resoundingly, the answer is no. How could it be otherwise? So I listened and read, and learned that there are scholars who are educated and disagree with modern "Islamiyyin" and other revivalist movements' lack of understanding.

If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.

And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.

Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?

So, in closing to my rambling post:
I don't have the answers to everything in which I see problems.
There are a diversity of scholarly opinions.
The world isn't black & white, and looking to the Umma we must look to all of it, not just the privileged and lucky.
Oh, and I say "Peace" instead of the Arabic because we are conversing in English and I also hate those little icon-y things, so don't be offended. Please don't, I'm not disrespecting, I'm giving and returning the greetings.

Nahid

[NahidSarvy]

The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

I'd suggest having a look through this work.

Peace, Dishdash.

I am aware of those constraints. It is hard to find good scholars!

I spoke of a day I might write something of worth, but what we really need is a new generation. By this, I meant that someday, I might have something useful to say in a coherent manner, but that deep scholarship can only be learned over a lifetime of committment. This is something that also tends to make people very conservative, trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking.

I agree totally with the requirements, but there is also a place for people who have learning but are not mujtahid fi sh-shar. There are people who have useful knowledge and can write on topics intelligently and with both faith and scholastic merit. Abou el Fadl, Amina Wadud, Asma Barlas: these three have skillz, as we might say, and their contributions should not be ignored, nor should works by Muslims about their faith.

Only a handful will ever be mujtahid fi sh-shar, but we can learn from others as well. The history of Islam is full of scholars who grew in wisdom and learning and became important, changing the face of Islam and the Umma.

[ishkabab]

Good post. Stay at home and none of this should ever be a problem.

if it were that easy...lol

[dishdash]

I don't think the answer to a lack of good scholars is to come to uninformed conclusions yourself. The answer is actually train to become a scholar. And yes, that is a lifetime's dedication and not something that everyone can do. May God reward the Ulema over and over... Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya. A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya.

People deal with fitnah in different ways.

A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.

Agreed.

[Silver Pearl]

:salamext:

Dish dash

I did not ‘sledge’ the sister; I have nothing personal against the sister. This is not a humiliation quarters and that was not the intention of my post.


Nahid

Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.

I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.



I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.

Peace and blessings be upon you too.

As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.

As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.

You’re quite right, I did not accuse you of such thing, rather if you look at my previous post I said that others resulted in ad hominem attack.

I will not disagree with you that some Muslims do make out scholars to be infallible but the errors of Muslims should not surprise us. We are all humans, and certainly not immune to sinning.

I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.

It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.

And excuse me, but your statementis a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.

There was not a subtle double standard behind my statement; it is for the benefit of both of us. I would not challenge you in something I did not know and thus it is stupid of us to challenge scholars when we do not acquire the same level of ilm. I did not mean for my words to come across as being harsh.

I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?

I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.

If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.

No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.

And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.

Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.

Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?

We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.


True, nothing is ever black and white.

Peace

[NahidSarvy]

Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.

Peace, Silver Pearl.

Thank you for your kind apology; I have a thick hide but I still appreciate your thoughtfulness.

As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.

That is most kind. Personally, I find a greeting much more sincere when uttered in the language of common discourse rather than just auto-framing one's posts with pre-set images, but I am clearly a maverick. Please continue to write as it pleases you, whether in English or in Arabic.

It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.

Absolutely.

I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.

Yes. It is faith that guides us when things are difficult.

No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.

Yes.

Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.

Ah, but I think there is much to discuss about what constitutes danger and how we should approach the issue of modesty and avoiding adultery.

I would like to say I can rattle off proofs, but I can't. First, I have to leave, so I can't do it now. Second, I need to do some research, because part of this relates to the issue of the ahâdith being quoted.

We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.

N.B. we can start a new thread, if you'd like. You can see some information on Wikipedia about this issue here: Legal Status of Transgendered Persons in Iran.

[NJUSA]

I'm uncomfortable with gender based segregation not just because of its impracticality and its tendency to create inferior conditions for women, but because it presents a cultural practice that originated outside an Islamic context as being an Islamic ideal, where, if one examines the Madinan paradigm, one knows that this was far from universally practiced. There were some women (e.g. the Mothers of the Believers) who were at some point secluded from society. But there are other examples, described in ahdith and referred to obliquely in the Qur'an, where women were a part of public life for religious, economic, and social reasons. People met for the purposes of doing business, pursuing education, and enjoying one another's company in public, regardless of gender. The injunctions on dress and appropriate conduct in public help to create a space where women are free from harassment as they conduct their daily lives. Barring women from public life has proved unhealthy for society, and jeapordizes a community's ability to provide safety, prosperity, and dignity for all its members.

[Umm Yoosuf]

Assalaamu Alaikum NJUSA :)

I don't think anyone is denying that women are part of society. Yes indeed they play a vital part. It is we (women) who bring up new generations, it is we who are the first of teachers and we (women) are the twin halves of men.


What is prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) is the meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men. And there is much evidence for this and ( have posted ONLY few evidence)

(Surat An-Nuur)

(Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; ....)

(Surat An-Nuur 31).

(... and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss)
"Surat Al-A7zaab:59".
(O Prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.

Free mixing is the root to ALL EVILS. Look at the problems of the world around us today be it the West or the East. How many stories have you heard of where a man/woman run of with her lover? How many men/women have you heard of having affairs? What is the solution to these problems?

[Muhammad]

:sl:

Insha'Allaah the thread can be closed in due course, but since there has been some discussion going on, it might be better to wait until people have become clear on the issue.

There are also some other threads relevant to the topic, please see:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...uidelines.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ee-mixing.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...rmingling.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/marriage...-reminder.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ite-gnder.html

:w:

[ISDhillon]

there is no necessity for brothers to pm sisters and vice versa, if its really that important they can get one of the mods to pass on the message.

why?

[Halima]

why?

Why?

Well because there is no need for brothers to talk to sisters unless it is essential.


Now see, that is basically one of the reasons why super mods have the right to check the P.M's between brothers/sisters..to make sure everything goes in accordance to the Shariah law as sister Labibah has stated earlier.



Now if a sister for some reason perfers to give the message to a brother via a mod then by all means she is enable to do so.



Infact, this is one of the better choices then directly communicating to a brother, in my opinon.

[ISDhillon]

Why?

Well because there is no need for brothers to talk to sisters unless it is essential.


Now see, that is basically one of the reasons why super mods have the right to check the P.M's between brothers/sisters..to make sure everything goes in accordance to the Shariah law as sister Labibah has stated earlier.



Now if a sister for some reason perfers to give the message to a brother via a mod then by all means she is enable to do so.




Infact, this is one of the better choices then directly communicating to a brother, in my opinon.

so in accordance to shariah men and women only talk if essential, can you not control yourself? what is the reason for this law?

[------]

what is the reason for this law?

Attraction between the opposite sex.

[ISDhillon]

Attraction between the opposite sex.

is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction

[IbnAbdulHakim]

is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction

:sl:

feeling the attraction may cause you to act upon it unless you are prevented somehow!

:w:

[IceQueen~]

is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction

islam gets rid of the roots of the problem, so there is very little chance left for you to commit the sin (if any...)

[Halima]

is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction

Well that's the whole point..to have no attraction whatsoever. Eventually, smaller things will lead to big things then you'd really have something to be concerned about.

In accordance to the segregation of opposite sexes not only applied here on the forums, but this is everywhere unless of course that person is your mahram.

Islam proceeds to prevent something like that from getting into something bigger. A simple scenario is attraction.


If you keep on writing to the person that you are attracted to that definetly wouldn't help the situation..because there has to be a boundary and that is NOT writing to the opposite sex for unnecessary reasons.

[ISDhillon]

Well that's the whole point..to have no attraction whatsoever. Eventually, smaller things will lead to big things then you'd really have something to be concerned about.

In accordance to the segregation of opposite sexes not only applied here on the forums, but this is everywhere unless of course that person is your mahram.

Islam proceeds to prevent something like that from getting into something bigger. A simple scenario is attraction.


If you keep on writing to the person that you are attracted to that definetly wouldn't help the situation..because there has to be a boundary and that is NOT writing to the opposite sex for unnecessary reasons.

this must happen only in isalm because normally in society people interact and are quite responsible when acting upon their feelings, it is sad that you cannot exercise self-governance. as for islam pre-empting the possibility of attraction, then segregation is in itself half-baked best not have children at all cos one way or another you will still be attracted to someone, and what of lesbians what if they feel attracted how you gonna solve that one?, anyhows attraction is healthy and a part of life a person should embrace all things and live in the moment this is called living, this does not mean you act upon them when you love someone you can embrace that love and let it well-up in youre whole being, being imbued with such natural emotions is what makes us who we are, denying them is not abiding by the will of god, the purest one is one who shines like a radiant pearl whilst situated in the midst of filth, if you cannot do that, then you must live enslaved.:thankyou:

[Daffodil]

this must happen only in isalm because normally in society people interact and are quite responsible when acting upon their feelings, it is sad that you cannot exercise self-governance. as for islam pre-empting the possibility of attraction, then segregation is in itself half-baked best not have children at all cos one way or another you will still be attracted to someone, and what of lesbians what if they feel attracted how you gonna solve that one?, anyhows attraction is healthy and a part of life a person should embrace all things and live in the moment this is called living, this does not mean you act upon them when you love someone you can embrace that love and let it well-up in youre whole being, being imbued with such natural emotions is what makes us who we are, denying them is not abiding by the will of god, the purest one is one who shines like a radiant pearl whilst situated in the midst of filth, if you cannot do that, then you must live enslaved.

Thats why Allah swt has prescribed for us a thing called "marriage" so that we can act upon our desires/attractions in a lawful manner.

You dont need to look very far to see the curruption in society that intermixing with the oposite gender causes. How many marriages end up in divorce because of ppl having ellicit affairs. The spread of aids, children born out of wedlock etc etc. All these things start with "attraction" then lead to other things which then lead to major sinful acts. Islam has a cure for everything. It warns us about the harms of free mixing. Its cure starts with the root of where this illness arises from which is to lower the gaze and to avoid free mixing.

[- Qatada -]

this must happen only in isalm because normally in society people interact and are quite responsible when acting upon their feelings, it is sad that you cannot exercise self-governance. as for islam pre-empting the possibility of attraction, then segregation is in itself half-baked best not have children at all cos one way or another you will still be attracted to someone, and what of lesbians what if they feel attracted how you gonna solve that one?, anyhows attraction is healthy and a part of life a person should embrace all things and live in the moment this is called living, this does not mean you act upon them when you love someone you can embrace that love and let it well-up in youre whole being, being imbued with such natural emotions is what makes us who we are, denying them is not abiding by the will of god, the purest one is one who shines like a radiant pearl whilst situated in the midst of filth, if you cannot do that, then you must live enslaved.:thankyou:

Hey.


First of all, islam does not forbid love or attraction to a member of the opposite sex - but instead, it channels it in a way which is permissible so both parties can live in tranquility and peace.


Allaah Almighty says in the Qur'an:

He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts.) [30:21]


The way islam permits love is through marriage, and it is sunnah and a muslim gets rewarded for being kind to their spouse;


Allah's Apostle (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah's sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your wife's mouth." (Sahih Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: 'The most perfect Muslim in the matter of faith is one who has excellent behavior; and the best among you are those who behave best towards their wives" (Tirmidhi)


It is encouraged from the above evidences to love and treat your spouses in the best way you can, and the reason why islam doesn't allow pre-marital relationships is due to the fact that they are insecure, the children who are born out of wedlock may not i.e. have a father to lookafter them, and instead of living an animal lifestyle - marriage is a bond which makes both parties feel secure.


Islam does allow contact between both parties before a marriage takes place, so both parties can meet each other and see if the other person is attractive, although this does have its limits i.e. their has to be a guardian for the female when both parties are in contact, and they can discuss what they would like in the future, and see if their personalities compliment each other etc.

If they agree, the marriage can take place.

Read More: The Relationship between the Engaged Couple
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543584


Islam doesn't permit gay/lesbian acts, and it is a fact that this is not a natural attraction due to the fact that Allaah Almighty forbids it. That is sufficent for us as a proof.



Peace.

[Halima]

this must happen only in isalm because normally in society people interact and are quite responsible when acting upon their feelings, it is sad that you cannot exercise self-governance. as for islam pre-empting the possibility of attraction, then segregation is in itself half-baked best not have children at all cos one way or another you will still be attracted to someone, and what of lesbians what if they feel attracted how you gonna solve that one?, anyhows attraction is healthy and a part of life a person should embrace all things and live in the moment this is called living, this does not mean you act upon them when you love someone you can embrace that love and let it well-up in youre whole being, being imbued with such natural emotions is what makes us who we are, denying them is not abiding by the will of god, the purest one is one who shines like a radiant pearl whilst situated in the midst of filth, if you cannot do that, then you must live enslaved.:thankyou:

You may call it enslaved or oppression, of self-ignorance because of the fact that we are so vigilant over our feelings, but in Islam this is a complete way of life.

The things that we are forbidden to do always have a strong moral behind them. Anything sinful that we do, is accounted on our deeds.

If Allah(saw) tells us not to have sex before marriage, then what are we going to do, let our emotions take over us and ignore what he said? I mean..we would obviously be hypocrites!

The lame excuse that we are enslaved that we don't have the so-called freedom is such a false impression that even muslim women themselves decide to defend themselves to the maximum.

How are we as muslims are so ever enslaved if we continue to follow what Allah(swt) has told us to do?

If we are enslaved..we surely have the option to convert into another religion don't you think?

If we are so oppressed..you wouldn't see a muslim woman wearing niquab for her own sake in the name of protection. As a a matter of fact, ask any niquabi you see why they wear niquab for? They will not tell you they are enslaved they will tell you its for the sake of protection hence a moral right.

[ISDhillon]

"The lame excuse that we are enslaved that we don't have the so-called freedom is such a false impression that even muslim women themselves decide to defend themselves to the maximum."

is there an epidemic of female molestation that i am unaware of?, is there a seedy underground which is waiting to pounce upon muslim women so that they purposely go to hell?

How are we as muslims are so ever enslaved if we continue to follow what Allah(swt) has told us to do?

when any man comes under the weight of ANY law then they are no longer in charge of their destiny, god takes full account of the thought not just the action, if you let the thought play out within then you will be able to move on, but if you prevent the thought in the first place then you are escaping a part of you which is inherent to being a human, and yes i believe that wrapping yourself in cotton wool is a form of slavery even if you are lead to believe it is for your protection. I used to be a part of amnesty international and for all the islami laws in iran to protect women, women are still one of the greatest number of criminals who are hanged for killing men because theydid not resist rape. Now i am sure youll find some fancy way to wriggle out of this fact but remember that when you shovel rape stats about the western world , they can easily be wriggled out of aswell. Simple fact: face each challenge as it comes, this world is a battlefield and women are expected to fight an equal battle not hide in a bunker.

If we are enslaved..we surely have the option to convert into another religion don't you think?

no cos i dont believe islam is as how you are brought up to believe it is, initially all religions start of the same and then because of feudalism, patriarchy and mysogynistic leaders the message goes astray. I bet if more women in isalm started to assert themselves in society as active equal participants men would initially be ashamed but ultimately consider updating their religious praxis.

If we are so oppressed..you wouldn't see a muslim woman wearing niquab for her own sake in the name of protection. As a a matter of fact, ask any niquabi you see why they wear niquab for? They will not tell you they are enslaved they will tell you its for the sake of protection hence a moral right

i never said you were opressed i believe islamic women are too subservient to men and the older women are equally aggressive to younger women because of the fear of men, i think muslim women should make an example of of macho men more this is the only way they can regain leadership and respect amongst all women in the ummah, once one is liberated that one will liberate many more. I dont believe all this stuff about muslim women wearing niqab for protection i think its sometimes a political message especially in the west, go to pakistan and you wouldnt think it was an islamic country, also its become cool and trendy to wear muslim fashion even non-muslims do it there even fashion cat-wals which i think is a good thing.

When i used to work in an office I used to always go to nandos with a muslim girl and she was a devout muslim she never had a problem yeah the blokes used to talk behing her back cos we used to go together but I and she and the staff at nandos all knew that nothing went on, just gossiping muslim men are trouble causers cos they got sad lives. well some of them anyways.:giggling:

Gurfateh:thankyou:

ISDhillon

[IbnAbdulHakim]

is there an epidemic of female molestation that i am unaware of?, is there a seedy underground which is waiting to pounce upon muslim women so that they purposely go to hell?

:peace:
A woman gets raped every minute in america....
:peace:

[ISDhillon]

:peace:
A woman gets raped every minute in america....
:peace:

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02...den-and.html:X

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:peace:

^ Link doesnt work!

:peace:

[ISDhillon]

http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimrape.htm

i am just trying to show that these stats are not relevant because i believe you can bring up your children well enough without segregating them.

[ISDhillon]

Hi F sabililah:thankyou:

“First of all, islam does not forbid love or attraction to a member of the opposite sex - but instead, it channels it in a way which is permissible so both parties can live in tranquility and peace.”

So does dating.

“Allaah Almighty says in the Qur'an:

He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts.) [30:21]”

That has nothing to do with segregation of male and female.

“The way islam permits love is through marriage, and it is sunnah and a muslim gets rewarded for being kind to their spouse;

Allah's Apostle (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah's sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your wife's mouth." (Sahih Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: 'The most perfect Muslim in the matter of faith is one who has excellent behavior; and the best among you are those who behave best towards their wives" (Tirmidhi)”

Both of which have nothing to do with segration

“It is encouraged from the above evidences to love and treat your spouses in the best way you can, and the reason why islam doesn't allow pre-marital relationships is due to the fact that they are insecure, the children who are born out of wedlock may not i.e. have a father to lookafter them, and instead of living an animal lifestyle - marriage is a bond which makes both parties feel secure.”

You havnt shown where islam forbids intermingling? You’ve told me about being kind to youre spouse that’s great but the threads about intermingling, please advise. living an animal lifestyle? - it doesnt happen in my family there are single parent mothers and their doing pretty well without their partners it depends on what youve had drummed into you growing up, if youve been told that you are unequipped then that teaching will have a sphere of influence on you no matter what you do in your life, especially when suggested with fire and brimstone.

“Islam does allow contact between both parties before a marriage takes place, so both parties can meet each other and see if the other person is attractive, although this does have its limits i.e. their has to be a guardian for the female when both parties are in contact, and they can discuss what they would like in the future, and see if their personalities compliment each other etc.”

Prove it from koran

“Islam doesn't permit gay/lesbian acts, and it is a fact that this is not a natural attraction due to the fact that Allaah Almighty forbids it. That is sufficent for us as a proof.”

But attraction still happens whether you approve it or not that’s the fact it doesn’t matter whether its forbidden.


ISDhillon:)

[Halima]

You havnt shown where islam forbids intermingling? You’ve told me about being kind to youre spouse that’s great but the threads about intermingling, please advise. living an animal lifestyle? - it doesnt happen in my family there are single parent mothers and their doing pretty well without their partners it depends on what youve had drummed into you growing up, if youve been told that you are unequipped then that teaching will have a sphere of influence on you no matter what you do in your life, especially when suggested with fire and brimstone.

Marriage is the ONLY legal way in islam for one to even mingle with the opposite sex.

Marriage is the only open channel to all muslim men and women for not only commitment, however, for different reasons.

So imagine if you had a girlfriend, you had sex with her and everything then what is the point of marriage?


Marriage is supposed to be a sacred ordeal no just some 2nd hand thing after a loose relationship with some person that you are not even related to.

But attraction still happens whether you approve it or not that’s the fact it doesn’t matter whether its forbidden.

Its forbidden if you cross the boundary. Just b/c you may be attracted to a girl or guy doesn't give anyone the lame excuse to go on ahead and try to talk to her b/ the shaytaan is always always and ALWAYS the third party. :)

[NJUSA]

So, since sexual attraction isn t strictly between those of opposite genders, and segregation is the best way to prevent undue attraction, should we then be segregated from all non-relatives, regardless of gender? Also what should those who are intersexed do? What about those who happen to be androgynous (having the genitalia of one gender, but an ambiguous gender expression)? Methinks the Qur'anic approach is best: everybody, dress modestly, don't look with an intent that you can't lawfully make good on, and don't talk trash about other people. Good then, good today.

[ISDhillon]

:thankyou: [QUOTE]

Marriage is the ONLY legal way in islam for one to even mingle with the opposite sex.

show me this from koran

Marriage is the only open channel to all muslim men and women for not only commitment, however, for different reasons.

thats great but has nothing to do with segregation, somewhere there is a misunderstanding i dont know whether you realise it.

So imagine if you had a girlfriend, you had sex with her and everything then what is the point of marriage?

i dont believe in sex before marriage but again what does your question have to do with segregation, i respect your view on this but without proof how can you tell others its wrong?

Marriage is supposed to be a sacred ordeal no just some 2nd hand thing after a loose relationship with some person that you are not even related to.

i agree, related? i dont believe in incest sorry,

Please show me where islam says two sexes cannot intermingle i need to see the word "intermingling"

thanks and no offence,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Have you read all the posts?
-Peace

[ISDhillon]

I couldnt be bothered to read all of it was very sporadic and not very well laid out but this one is good:

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

this is exactly what i am arguing for that women and men must both be on their guard, is this not a symbol of self-governance that your revelation asks for, that the battle of purity is fought daily within and you should fight the battle rather than take yourself out of the situation because then how can you get rewarded for a test you are not present for?

i hope you get me,

ISDhillon:)

[IceQueen~]

Why?

Well because there is no need for brothers to talk to sisters unless it is essential.


Now see, that is basically one of the reasons why super mods have the right to check the P.M's between brothers/sisters..to make sure everything goes in accordance to the Shariah law as sister Labibah has stated earlier.



Now if a sister for some reason perfers to give the message to a brother via a mod then by all means she is enable to do so.



Infact, this is one of the better choices then directly communicating to a brother, in my opinon.

can you give a message through the mods? that's good..

[Ghazi]

I couldnt be bothered to read all of it was very sporadic and not very well laid out but this one is good:



this is exactly what i am arguing for that women and men must both be on their guard, is this not a symbol of self-governance that your revelation asks for, that the battle of purity is fought daily within and you should fight the battle rather than take yourself out of the situation because then how can you get rewarded for a test you are not present for?

i hope you get me,

ISDhillon:)

Salaam

You don't make sense one point your saying lower your gaze and then you say "Rather then take yourself out of the situation" Prevention is the best cure.

[Muezzin]

ISDhillon, I see what you're saying, but surely, if there is a danger of certain things happening in certain situations, the logical thing would be to avoid those situations, rather than seek them out?

Apologies if I've misunderstood.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I agree with you on this one Muezzin... scary.
:w:

[mizan_aliashraf]

Salam
true bro
Wassalam

[ISDhillon]

ISDhillon, I see what you're saying, but surely, if there is a danger of certain things happening in certain situations, the logical thing would be to avoid those situations, rather than seek them out?

Apologies if I've misunderstood.

but then you havnt taken the test to be "on guard", you have pre-empted the test so when allah asks you about youre morality your gonna say i didnt take the test i circumvented it, i believe if you are saying to live by gods will then you should throw yourself in the deep end and take on all lives challenges, because i feel like people see it that a women should not put herself in a position to be abused, however abuse is in itself is a grave assumption i cant stress that enough!!!! and if were completely honest is there a place anywhere in the world which has no intermingling. The same goes for those types of people who still feel attraction when seperated, they have to take the same test, no?

Have a nice day folks,:)

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Ghazi]

:sl:

you should throw yourself in the deep end

again this doesn't make sense and isn't logical, the whole point is to stay away from fitnah you'll be rewarded from staying away and punished if you put yourself in that situation.

[Muezzin]

but then you havnt taken the test to be "on guard", you have pre-empted the test so when allah asks you about youre morality your gonna say i didnt take the test i circumvented it,

I see. What I was trying to get at is, we shouldn't consciously go and seek out such situations, but if we find ourselves in one, we should act as we are told to in the Quran and Sunnah.

i believe if you are saying to live by gods will then you should throw yourself in the deep end and take on all lives challenges,

I disagree, but I can see the logic of such an approach.

because i feel like people see it that a women should not put herself in a position to be abused, however abuse is in itself is a grave assumption i cant stress that enough!!!!

Fair enough.

and if were completely honest is there a place anywhere in the world which has no intermingling.

Prisons?

The kind of 'mingling' that goes on in those places is just... wrong.

The same goes for those types of people who still feel attraction when seperated, they have to take the same test, no?

Yep. So there's really no issue, because everyone is tested regardless, right?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Idon't thinkAllah wants us to bring fitna toourselves,he brings the tests to us... what you gonna say,O Allah i was hanging around with that guy because I wanted to show you how strong I was'???
Well i've free-mixed before,and alhamdulillah it didn'tlead to anything serious but it's still not beneficial in the least. Theonly thing it did was stealmy hayaa away from me and cause more fitna. Trust me free-mixing is totally haraam...i've seen the effects of it on other people and myself included.
:w:

[ISDhillon]

I see. What I was trying to get at is, we shouldn't consciously go and seek out such situations, but if we find ourselves in one, we should act as we are told to in the Quran and Sunnah.


I disagree, but I can see the logic of such an approach.


Fair enough.


Prisons?

The kind of 'mingling' that goes on in those places is just... wrong.


Yep. So there's really no issue, because everyone is tested regardless, right?

true, so i dont think this pm business should be limited between members of the same sex, we should have trust in our brothers and sisters to face the test and have faith in them.:thankyou:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

But the mods have the right toenforce that. And unneccessary PMing between members of the opposite sex is against the rules. Do not underestimate the shaytaan, he is your biggest enemy.
:w:

[ISDhillon]

Idon't thinkAllah wants us to bring fitna toourselves,he brings the tests to us... what you gonna say,O Allah i was hanging around with that guy because I wanted to show you how strong I was'???
Well i've free-mixed before,and alhamdulillah it didn'tlead to anything serious but it's still not beneficial in the least. Theonly thing it did was stealmy hayaa away from me and cause more fitna. Trust me free-mixing is totally haraam...i've seen the effects of it on other people and myself included.
:w:

can i ask the other ladies on the forum did you all have this experience, can one experience serve as a rule for others i don't think so, muminah youre on youre path so you live your path and let others live their islam you dont need to judge, say it wasnt right for you and you have made your own path let people learn from there mistakes, who knows they may handle the situation better than you.

no offence:)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Handle the situation better than me?Excuseme but i go to High school and i've seen it happen all too many times! Why would you wnat tomake your own mistake? Oh, zinna isn't so bad...lemme just try it and see formyself... maybe that's an extreme example, but it's the same thing.You have no idea what is on that guys mind.Just because he seems alright doesn't mean he has pure intentions. Shaytaan willmake the best of it trust me and unless Allah takes you away from that unmodest situation you are going to see the effects for yourself.But fair enough, you want to make that mistake good for you. Just don't plead ignorance on yawmal qiyamah.
:w:

[ISDhillon]

Handle the situation better than me?Excuseme but i go to High school and i've seen it happen all too many times! Why would you wnat tomake your own mistake? Oh, zinna isn't so bad...lemme just try it and see formyself... maybe that's an extreme example, but it's the same thing.You have no idea what is on that guys mind.Just because he seems alright doesn't mean he has pure intentions. Shaytaan willmake the best of it trust me and unless Allah takes you away from that unmodest situation you are going to see the effects for yourself.But fair enough, you want to make that mistake good for you. Just don't plead ignorance on yawmal qiyamah.
:w:

You see this is the problem muminah one thinks that one is above all others cos one does not intermingle, hoever one is as i have been saying just "one", one is not everybody some people may intermingle and keep their modesty and all else in tact. I intermigle with loads of people even if you like someone thats not a bad thing if you feel them up then you should get a slap but that doesnt happen usually. I know growing up we used to feel quite embarassed because the english people always talked about sex in the class room and we felt shame becuase sex was never discussed at home so it was taboo, if you educate youre children about these things then they can face all challenges and win.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Maybe you don'tknow you'relosing your hayaa... maybe you don'tknow you're causing fitna... maybe you don'tknow that the person you're intermingline with really likes you?
I don't think i'm above any one. I've just made someobservations.
:w:

[ISDhillon]

Maybe you don'tknow you'relosing your hayaa... maybe you don'tknow you're causing fitna... maybe you don'tknow that the person you're intermingline with really likes you?
I don't think i'm above any one. I've just made someobservations.
:w:

what about what youre doing now on this discussion forum with me?

and define hayaa, fitna please?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

When a person commits a sin for so long they become immune to it and it seems natural to them thereafter.

So many couples date and date and they find it completely natural, yet kids, angelic kids say EEEEEEEWWW at the site :p
:w:

[NJUSA]

Kids find any intimacy disgusting, including between their own parents. Should married couples not be intimate?

[Joe98]

…because i feel like people see it that a women should not put herself in a position to be abused….

Yes I agree.

If you check the statistics you will find the most common location of abuses.

The most common location is the family home. The woman will be in the home with a distant relative or with somebody she trusts.

The abuse happens here because it is in private and the criminal feels he can get away with it.

The abuse is not likely to be in a public place because the criminal will get caught.

From this we learn women are safe in public. They are not safe in their home with a man whom they ought to trust.

[Ghazi]

Yes I agree.

If you check the statistics you will find the most common location of abuses.

The most common location is the family home. The woman will be in the home with a distant relative or with somebody she trusts.

The abuse happens here because it is in private and the criminal feels he can get away with it.

The abuse is not likely to be in a public place because the criminal will get caught.

From this we learn women are safe in public. They are not safe in their home with a man whom they ought to trust.

:sl:

That's only in a few cases go and see the majority of rape cases they're done outside of the house.

[Joe98]

That's only in a few cases go and see the majority of rape cases they're done outside of the house.

Is this what you mean?????


“77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997)”


“6 out of 10 rapes are reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or home of a friend, relative or neighbour. (US Dept. of Justice 1997)”

http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html



Acquaintance rape is much more prevalent than stranger rape. In a study published by the Department of Justice, 82% of the victims were raped by someone they knew (acquaintance/friend, intimate, relative) and 18% were raped by a stranger: From a report on Violence Against Women based on data from the National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Sorry... i assumed you were a Muslim female. I didn't bother to look at your profile.
But as Muslims we don't think we should walk into a burning building.
Nor should we assume we have an ounce of faith.

[------]

Nor should we assume we have an ounce of faith.

What u mean sis :?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well sis.... Umar ibn al Khattab (ra), was scared that he was a hypocrite until his death! Hudhaifa (ra) was entrusted with the secrets, so he would often come to him crying to aks if he was among the hypocrites... the answer was always no of course. Subhan-Allah, this was even though he was among those promised paradise! Now why should we assume we are believers? Arrogance is a vice that shaytaan uses to try to cloud our vision.
:w:

[glo]

I read the first post carefully, and it seems that most of the rules are there to prevent physical contact, and thereby physical temptation.
That's understandable, especially amongst young people who are not yet married.

As a non-Muslim I have some more questions though:

Given that half the world's population are of the opposite sex, do I not do well to try to understand and relate to them?
How do I learn to understand and relate to them, if not through communicating with them?

What I am trying to say is, that I don't think the opposite sex should be a 'closed book', some great mystery, which will only be revealed through contact with close relatives and finally through marriage.

How much contact, for example, are Muslim women exposed to with Muslim men (In appropriate ways, of course)?
I somehow feel that if I could only speak to certain people whilst averting my eyes from them, and speaking softly, I would find it difficult to get to know them properly.

I am not some loose women, I can assure you!
I don't think of other men as potential sexual partners. And I conduct myself in a manner which gives that message to the outside world.
I am a faithful wife, and have been for 20 years!
And yet, my life would be so much poorer, if it wasn't for male friends, and conversations and an insight into the 'male world'.

Since I have read the 'official stance' on this, can people give me concrete examples of how they interact with the opposite sex - just to clarify this for me?

Thanks!:)

[NJUSA]

Intergender relations are highly contextual. In some Muslim cultures, men and women do befriend one another; in others, they barely speak. In some Muslim cultures, men and women speak freely for matters of commerce, education, esp. religious topics, but do not socialize per se. In all Muslim cultures, chastity is valued, but the association of social intercourse with intercourse of another kind is not universally made among Muslims.

[glo]

Intergender relations are highly contextual. In some Muslim cultures, men and women do befriend one another; in others, they barely speak. In some Muslim cultures, men and women speak freely for matters of commerce, education, esp. religious topics, but do not socialize per se. In all Muslim cultures, chastity is valued, but the association of social intercourse with intercourse of another kind is not universally made among Muslims.

That's interestig, NJUSA.
Thanks for your reply. :)

Another point I would like to make, is that whilst I agree that such rules which prevent contact between men and women also prevent the risk of inappropriate relationships, it also indicates a certain level of distrust. :rollseyes

For example, if my husband did not want me to go to work to avoid me coming in contact with other men, or if I did not want him to socialise with other women, I would somehow feel that our marriage is lacking trust.
My husband trusts me to be faithful - not because there are rules in place which prevent me from being unfaithful to him, but because I love him, cherish our marriage and would not want to be unfaithful!
The same applies the other way round.

Does that make sense?

Peace.

[Umm Yoosuf]

Hi Glo

Given that half the world's population are of the opposite sex, do I not do well to try to understand and relate to them?
How do I learn to understand and relate to them, if not through communicating with them?

What I am trying to say is, that I don't think the opposite sex should be a 'closed book', some great mystery, which will only be revealed through contact with close relatives and finally through marriage.

Islam is very simple. Its a complete way of life and everything is structured in a perfect manner. Allah has legislated things for us and we must follow Him. Everything is done for a reason. If you want to hve contact with a man for marriage have your wali (father) with you. If it's business wise and you are in close contact with him i.e alone with him in a room that is haram (forbidden) so take one of your Mahrams with you.

Why all this? This is for your own benefit. To safe guard yourself from all falling into sins....how many couples have afairs?...how did it all start? Having a close contat with the oppsite gender. Just take a look at the soceity with live in.

How much contact, for example, are Muslim women exposed to with Muslim men (In appropriate ways, of course)?

I don't understand you question...If a Muslim is truly practsing Islam then there is no reason for her to have a close contact with a man whom is not her mahram....

I somehow feel that if I could only speak to certain people whilst averting my eyes from them, and speaking softly, I would find it difficult to get to know them properly.

Allah tells s (women) to lower our gaze and not to be soft in speech.

I am not some loose women, I can assure you!
I don't think of other men as potential sexual partners. And I conduct myself in a manner which gives that message to the outside world.
I am a faithful wife, and have been for 20 years!
And yet, my life would be so much poorer, if it wasn't for male friends, and conversations and an insight into the 'male world'.

Do you honestly need to have male friends? Why not simply stick to females? Isn't that better for you so as to avoid fitnah (temptations) and falling into the trap of Satan? Honestly you don't need to have male friends to understand the male world!

[glo]

Hi Glo

Why all this? This is for your own benefit. To safe guard yourself from all falling into sins....how many couples have afairs?...how did it all start? Having a close contat with the oppsite gender. Just take a look at the soceity with live in.

I understand what you are saying.
But like I said, myself (and many other people!) have regular contact with people of the other gender, without having an endless string of affairs!
Although to have an affair you need to have the opportunity to do so, first and foremost there needs to be an intrinsic desire to have an affair.

I don't understand you question...If a Muslim is truly practsing Islam then there is no reason for her to have a close contact with a man whom is not her mahram....

This demonstrates our cultural differences quite clearly.
To me communication with people is a vital part of my daily life - that includes men and women, friends, relatives and strangers. They all have an important contribution to make in my life. :)

Allah tells s (women) to lower our gaze and not to be soft in speech.

Sorry, I misread.
I suppose this means 'soft speech' as in seductive. I took it to mean 'soft speech' as in not assertive.

Do you honestly need to have male friends? Why not simply stick to females? Isn't that better for you so as to avoid fitnah (temptations) and falling into the trap of Satan? Honestly you don't need to have male friends to understand the male world!

See my above comment.
I hugely value all my friends, men and women alike. I would hate to look at all male friends and aquaintances with suspicion, as if they all were potential sexual predators. Believe me, they are not! :rollseyes

I am not obsessed with people's gender. I like to talk to people, hear their thoughts and views, share their worlds - they are people first, male and female second.
I respect your views, but I don't agree with them.
We have to agree to disagree. :thankyou:

Peace.

[x Maz x]

MashAllah the issue has been addressed, I dont think there is a need to interact so openly with the opposite gender, Although I am a sinner of this and i have fallen into this trap i just think to avoid causin fitnah stick with your ukhtys InshAllah and btw Respect to Sister Muminah...MashAllah soo knowledgable for such a young chic Nuf lv n respect goin out 2 ya Peace n stay blessed x

[Umm Yoosuf]

I understand what you are saying.
But like I said, myself (and many other people!) have regular contact with people of the other gender, without having an endless string of affairs!
Although to have an affair you need to have the opportunity to do so, first and foremost there needs to be an intrinsic desire to have an affair.

This demonstrates our cultural differences quite clearly.
To me communication with people is a vital part of my daily life - that includes men and women, friends, relatives and strangers. They all have an important contribution to make in my life. :)

Not really...i don't think this is about culture differences..most certaintly in my culture men and women mix. Indeed communication is an important part in my cultue too however its my way of life (islam) which comes first.


Allah says in the Qur'an: `It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, has indeed strayed in a plain error.' (33:36).

Sorry, I misread.
I suppose this means 'soft speech' as in seductive. I took it to mean 'soft speech' as in not assertive.

Allah says in the Qur'an:`Be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy or evil desire for adultery, etc) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.' (S33:32)

Not soft in speech as in not been flirty....some women talk in a very seductive voice....

See my above comment.
I hugely value all my friends, men and women alike. I would hate to look at all male friends and aquaintances with suspicion, as if they all were potential sexual predators. Believe me, they are not! :rollseyes

And i am sure that not all males are sexual predators (as you put it) but in Islam a Muslim must hear and obey. To be honest here if people were following the ways of Islam alot of issues such as rape, affairs, sexual harassment etc would stop. Don't you think?

Let me just give you an example outside the topic.... Our Prophet Muhammad pbuh told us...“If you want to go to bed, perform ablution as that for prayer, then lie down on your right side, .....(Bukhari and Muslim) He pbuh didn't tell us why....still we Muslim follow him...but now scientist advice us to sleep on our right side due to blood circulation..My point is everything Allah and His Messager pbuh tell us to do is for our benefits.....

The manner in which men and women should conduct with oneanother certainty their is benefits to it.

I am not obsessed with people's gender. I like to talk to people, hear their thoughts and views, share their worlds - they are people first, male and female second.

I'm sure not. But why must you speak with men...if you like talking to them or you want to be able to relate to them (know about the world of men) why not talk to your brother, father, husband, granfather etc

[glo]

Thank you, Al-Mu'minah, for your patience to explain.

I still don't agree and probably never will. :rollseyes

Peace and blessings! :thankyou:

[NJUSA]

I, like many Muslim women before me, work and socialize with men and women. I work in the office with men and women, I tutor men and women, I enjoy social gatherings and conversations with men and women. Some of the men I socialize with are Muslim; some are non-Muslim. The men that I socialize with know the limits and observe them wonderfully, and we keep our intercourse at the social level. Could I restrict myself to female friends only? It's possible, but I'd be a less wise and healthy person in the absence of several friends who care for me and challenge me to be a better person. There is a difference between modesty and segregation. Modesty is a curtain between the sexual and non-sexual parts of one's life. A certain amount of it is neccessary, and can be withdrawn when needed. Segregation is a wall between human beings. It is only needed to prevent danger, and is meant to be more or less permanent. I refuse to believe that morally sound people are an inherent danger to society, and must be put behind walls for the protection of and from other morally sound people. My brethren in faith and humanity are not morally deficient on account of their gender;likewise for my sistren in faith and humanity. Why, then, must we be alienated from each other and our own selves?

[primitivefuture]

Why is it that premarital sex is prominent in Christian countries such as America and Britain?

[Halima]

Why is it that premarital sex is prominent in Christian countries such as America and Britain?

Religion plays no major part in people's lives at major western countries like Britain and America. Just look back 1400 years ago in the Catholic religion there was no such thing as a premarital relationship. If there was, the penalty was stoning, execution, or disclaiming.


All it was courtship and then marriage. The same trend that happend back then applies to the Islamic ruling of courtship and marriage as a request.


So, as you can see, in Islam, it is a complete way of life. There are directions for everything you do from using the restroom to going to sleep. All of these rules are for a reason. They apply to the same thing that Allah(swt) has prohibited or permitted what we do in this world in essence to the hereafter.

[Woodrow]

Jazakallahu Khairan for the highly informational thread.

[glo]

Thank you,

I, like many Muslim women before me, work and socialize with men and women. I work in the office with men and women, I tutor men and women, I enjoy social gatherings and conversations with men and women. Some of the men I socialize with are Muslim; some are non-Muslim. The men that I socialize with know the limits and observe them wonderfully, and we keep our intercourse at the social level. Could I restrict myself to female friends only? It's possible, but I'd be a less wise and healthy person in the absence of several friends who care for me and challenge me to be a better person. There is a difference between modesty and segregation. Modesty is a curtain between the sexual and non-sexual parts of one's life. A certain amount of it is neccessary, and can be withdrawn when needed. Segregation is a wall between human beings. It is only needed to prevent danger, and is meant to be more or less permanent. I refuse to believe that morally sound people are an inherent danger to society, and must be put behind walls for the protection of and from other morally sound people. My brethren in faith and humanity are not morally deficient on account of their gender;likewise for my sistren in faith and humanity. Why, then, must we be alienated from each other and our own selves?

Thank you, NJUSA, your post echoes so much how I feel about this. :thankyou:
I highlighted the parts which spoke to me particularly! It is encouraging to hear such a view from a Muslim sister.

Peace! :)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well, it is a matter of faith for me. I was confused about whether free-mixing was haraam or not when I first started practicing. I actually never used to free-mix before I started practicing and I used to only have female friends. But after about a year of practicing I started that. But it never really felt right to me. The brother was practicing too, and i suspect he knew it was wrong too. But anyway I was really confused and I made du'a to Allah to let me see what was right. And a couple of days later I got my answer. So personally I know what the right answer is for me. Since then I have read up on the matter and I feel that I definitely made the right decision.
:w:

[Umm Yoosuf]

Originally Posted by NJUSA
I, like many Muslim women before me, work and socialize with men and women. I work in the office with men and women, I tutor men and women, I enjoy social gatherings and conversations with men and women. Some of the men I socialize with are Muslim; some are non-Muslim. The men that I socialize with know the limits and observe them wonderfully, and we keep our intercourse at the social level. Could I restrict myself to female friends only? It's possible, but I'd be a less wise and healthy person in the absence of several friends who care for me and challenge me to be a better person. There is a difference between modesty and segregation. Modesty is a curtain between the sexual and non-sexual parts of one's life. A certain amount of it is neccessary, and can be withdrawn when needed. Segregation is a wall between human beings. It is only needed to prevent danger, and is meant to be more or less permanent. I refuse to believe that morally sound people are an inherent danger to society, and must be put behind walls for the protection of and from other morally sound people. My brethren in faith and humanity are not morally deficient on account of their gender;likewise for my sistren in faith and humanity. Why, then, must we be alienated from each other and our own selves?

Ok so you say all this....but what does Islam say? I think we all know the answer to that and have gone through it. So I'll just leave it at that.

[glo]

But anyway I was really confused and I made du'a to Allah to let me see what was right. And a couple of days later I got my answer. So personally I know what the right answer is for me. Since then I have read up on the matter and I feel that I definitely made the right decision.
:w:

It's interesting that you say that.
Because from what I have learned on this board over the past few weeks, it seems to me that Islam leaves only little room for personal interpretation like that.
It really sounds to me that you prayed to God directly for guidance and answers, and he provided those for you. :)
That sounds great, but are you putting you personal relationship with God before Islamic teachings (as I understand them from previous posters)? And is that acceptable in Islam?

I hope you understand that I am not criticising you! I am just trying to explore how your views fit in with the views of others here.

Looking forward to hearing from you again! :thankyou:

peace.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Lol don't worry. No, I didn't know what the islamic ruling was. I didn't know that much about Islam at that time, so I made du'a. And afterwards I found out that i made the right decision. In case you're all wondering... i stopped hanging around with him!
:w:

[IceQueen~]

alhamdu lillah Allah guided you-may He always keep u guided, ameen!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Ameen sis!
:w:

[NJUSA]

Ok so you say all this....but what does Islam say? I think we all know the answer to that and have gone through it. So I'll just leave it at that.

The Prophet (SAWS) and his companions (RA) conducted intergender commercial, religious, and social transactions. They did business, worshipped, and visited with one another. I know what people today say what "Islam says", but it doesn't entirely jibe with what the early Madinan community's praxis. For those who wish to part from the Madinan paradigm, that's their choice, but they lack moral authority to force it on others- which is an authority that lies within the Divine Prerogative.

[glo]

Lol don't worry. No, I didn't know what the islamic ruling was. I didn't know that much about Islam at that time, so I made du'a. And afterwards I found out that i made the right decision. In case you're all wondering... i stopped hanging around with him!
:w:

I think I had a senior moment then ...
Firstly I thought you were somebody else,
secondly I thought you were saying God told you it was okay to meet with this guy.
Got confused there ... :?

I still thing people are talking about two different things here.
Meeting secretly with a man, with the potential risk of the meeting developing into a physical relationship may be one thing - having contact with men in a professional or polite social context is another! Isn't it ???? :rollseyes

What if as a woman I go into a shop, and the only person around is the man behind the counter? Am I supposed to leave the shop again? Or not be out shopping alone in the first place?? To what extreme are you supposed to take this?

peace. :)

[Nawal89]

If there's a man at the behind the counter then theres no way you can help that can you? As long as you enter the shop with the intention of just getting your stuff and leaving. But if i saw that there is only one man behind the counter, and i'll be the only one in the shop with him, I'll leave. You dont know what could happen.

Also the Sahabah used to do business, sell goods, and i'm sure when you sell you dont sell to women only or women only. Mixing here means without a solid reason, just for fun, just for chat, or oh i didnt see him for soooo long and we used to be co workers yadda yadda. It'll be better if you can avoid mixing totally though. But some times its just not possible i guess..like on the bus..lol.

[Silver Pearl]

Islam has not made it unlawful for men and women to mix or talk if necessary. Necessary includes many things, things that NJUSA and Nawal have mentioned in their posts. However, some of us have failed to miss the point being made in this thread. Whether intentionally or unintentionally is beyond my capability to vouch for. It is only in the case of idle chit chat that can result in fitnah arising that such intermingling is considered unlawful. I’m sure that is not hard to comprehend nor is there a point for further discussion as it seems evidently clear that people only end up arguing.

If anyone feels the need to ask any further questions in regards to the issue, they may start a thread.

Thank you :wasalamex

:threadclo