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Abu Handhala
05-04-2006, 05:50 PM






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master_seth
05-04-2006, 06:06 PM
wasup bro, may u translate dat 4 me in a short version, as my arabic is not dat good!!!!
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Riya90
05-04-2006, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by master_seth
wasup bro, may u translate dat 4 me in a short version, as my arabic is not dat good!!!!
lol that aint arabic .. its urdu
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Muhammad Waqqas
05-05-2006, 03:05 AM
Bhai, don't post such topics yaar. Its not so easy to understand it. First of all, I don't know who has this Aqeedah, secondly, who ever has, will be having much stronger logics as compared to what you gave. We cannot conclude anything by listening to one side only. I agree that it shoulden't be done, but don't start such topics. Its actually going to harm and create a rift in the forum.
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extinction
05-05-2006, 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by master_seth
post deleted
---- also mashaAllah a very nice and lenghty post will allot time to specially read it got until the part "jis ki rownak" (also a very controversial issue)
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waji
05-05-2006, 11:20 AM
:sl:

Buhat Khoob kafi achi post hay
iss main koi assi baat nahi hay kay us per eytaraaz kiya jaey
Quran aur Hadith say bhi koi eytaraaz karay ga kiya

:w:
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S_87
05-05-2006, 11:24 AM
:sl:

ok dont understand but one question

whats the title mean? is it calling muhammed :arabic5: :-\
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waji
05-05-2006, 11:27 AM
:sl:

it is about calling Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) for help

:w:
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S_87
05-05-2006, 11:31 AM
:sl:



oh ok my apologies i thought it was the other way round
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waji
05-05-2006, 11:35 AM
:sl:

thats what the 1 post is all about we can't

:w:
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Kartos Khan
05-10-2006, 08:20 AM
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azc
03-05-2017, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad Waqqas
Bhai, don't post such topics yaar. Its not so easy to understand it. First of all, I don't know who has this Aqeedah, secondly, who ever has, will be having much stronger logics as compared to what you gave. We cannot conclude anything by listening to one side only. I agree that it shoulden't be done, but don't start such topics. Its actually going to harm and create a rift in the forum.
solid rely....
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OmAbdullah
03-05-2017, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Handhala








The topic of this thread is shirk (polytheism). Islam came to end polytheism and establish Tawheed.
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azc
04-05-2017, 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
The topic of this thread is shirk (polytheism). Islam came to end polytheism and establish Tawheed.
this is how they prove their aqida: https://makashfa.wordpress.com/2012/...an-and-hadith/
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azc
04-05-2017, 05:54 AM
An interesting thread on this topichttp://www.ummah.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4373820
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azc
04-05-2017, 05:57 AM
I think we can address RasulAllah s.a.w at his grave.( It doesn't mean seeking help)
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Abz2000
04-05-2017, 07:33 AM
But why would you keep resurrecting a useless thread despite so many events taking place?
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Umm Malik
04-06-2017, 12:59 PM
مدد يا رسول الله
madad means to seek help and aid and succor
And those things just Allah can give them to us
And we shouldn't ask them even from the prophet himself
We can ask help and aid from a person who is still alive but the one who died his deeds stopped.
My English doesn't help ... I hope it's clear
Jazakum lahu kayran
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aaj
04-06-2017, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by azc
I think we can address RasulAllah s.a.w at his grave.( It doesn't mean seeking help)
We can give salam to him at the grave, that is all. Allah has given him the right to hear and respond to our salams , that's about it. Everything else is sufi bidah.
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azc
04-07-2017, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by aaj
We can give salam to him at the grave, that is all. Allah has given him the right to hear and respond to our salams , that's about it. Everything else is sufi bidah.
No, RasulAllah isn't like an ordinary dead man. His life and personality was different from all the human beings likewise His barzakhi life is also different from all people in hereafter.
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Abz2000
04-07-2017, 06:44 AM
No wonder I used to see letters snuck in through the grill surrounding his grave, does he (pbuh) read them himself or does a secretary read them for him? (Now that the volume is higher).
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azc
04-07-2017, 09:25 AM
http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/22883
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azc
04-07-2017, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
No wonder I used to see letters snuck in through the grill surrounding his grave, does he (pbuh) read them himself or does a secretary read them for him? (Now that the volume is higher).
May Allah s.w.t grant you adab of prophet s.a.w. Ameen
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Abz2000
04-07-2017, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by azc
May Allah s.w.t grant you adab of prophet s.a.w. Ameen
Equating him with God is be-adab, ulloo, and dushmanee, you know that Prophets who got equated with Allah get pulled up on the day of judgement for questioning too? And I was a watcher over them when I dwelt amongst them, when You took me up YOU was the watcher!
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azc
04-07-2017, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Equating him with God is be-adab, ulloo, and dushmanee, you know that Prophets who got equated with Allah get pulled up on the day of judgement for questioning too? And I was a watcher over them when I dwelt amongst them, when You took me up YOU was the watcher!
but what you did ? even the worst Muslim can't dare to mock at RasulAllah s.a.w.
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Abz2000
04-07-2017, 10:03 AM
The person claiming that it was ok to call on a dead messenger was mocking the messenger of Allah, the people throwing letters in the grill fence of a grave were mocking the messenger of Allah. I was getting them to probe their own intelligence with logic.





“Allah's Messenger (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: 'You will indeed follow the ways of those before you, hand span by hand span, and an arms length after another. Even if they enter into a lizard’s hole, you will follow them.’
We (the Sahaba) asked, ‘Is it the Jews and the Christians?’
He replied, ‘Who else!’”

[Bukhari]
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azc
04-07-2017, 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The person claiming that it was ok to call on a dead messenger was mocking the messenger of Allah, the people throwing letters in the grill fence of a grave were mocking the messenger of Allah. I was getting them to probe their own intelligence with logic. “Allah's Messenger (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: 'You will indeed follow the ways of those before you, hand span by hand span, and an arms length after another. Even if they enter into a lizard’s hole, you will follow them.’ We (the Sahaba) asked, ‘Is it the Jews and the Christians?’ He replied, ‘Who else!’” [Bukhari]
and the Jews highly haughty and ignorant, were be-adab as well.
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azc
04-07-2017, 10:25 AM
I think nobody on IB believe that we should seek help from prophet s.a.w
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Umm Malik
04-07-2017, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by azc
No, RasulAllah isn't like an ordinary dead man. His life and personality was different from all the human beings likewise His barzakhi life is also different from all people in hereafter.
Yes but the only thing he tell us about us that our salat upon him will be Displays to him
But more than this are just new things it wasnt at the time of sahabah or tabiin
So .. we can't say things which wasnt befor us
And if we do so it will change our deen
Sorry for my bad English
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azc
04-08-2017, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by Umm Malik
Yes but the only thing he tell us about us that our salat upon him will be Displays to him But more than this are just new things it wasnt at the time of sahabah or tabiin So .. we can't say things which wasnt befor us And if we do so it will change our deen Sorry for my bad English
several incidents other than paying salam are recorded in books by reliable and famous scholars, can't be denied.
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azc
04-08-2017, 04:43 AM
Do you know several incidents of sahaba ikram ra, tabi'in rh and other pious people are found in books. Do you see shirk in them...?
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Umm Malik
04-08-2017, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by azc
several incidents other than paying salam are recorded in books by reliable and famous scholars, can't be denied.
Can you please give examples
I think as a mowahidin we shouldn't ask our prophet for any thing because Allah tells him ( 188 ) Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe."
And also the prophet salla lahu alayhi WA salam advice us
Narrated `Umar:
I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."
Are you a sufi
Sufism believe in this .. and I live in a place which they believe in those things .. but I research about it and I see how sufism are created a lot of new things in Islam and how they deceive the general sufies
So I just want to advice to try to make sure about any thing they say
But not say that they are wrong
And Allah knows best
May Allah guide us
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Umm Malik
04-08-2017, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Do you know several incidents of sahaba ikram ra, tabi'in rh and other pious people are found in books. Do you see shirk in them...?
No aouthou billah from saying this
We are a follower to them and seekers of Truth
We learn and try to do our best
And at the end of the day we all ask Allah's guidance
And as Allah said :
And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
I don't want to say that Sufism is wrong
May Allah guide us
We all here to learn ...
Jazak lahu khayran
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azc
04-08-2017, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Umm Malik
No aouthou billah from saying this We are a follower to them and seekers of Truth We learn and try to do our best And at the end of the day we all ask Allah's guidanceAnd as Allah said : And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.I don't want to say that Sufism is wrongMay Allah guide us We all here to learn ... Jazak lahu khayran
I think you should believe in this fact that they had better abilities than us to distinguish between haq and batil. We can't imagine of them being involved in shirk, if believed otherwise foundations of Islam will be shattered.
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azc
04-08-2017, 01:43 PM
أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا. فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس. فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.Malik ad-Dar i.e. treasurer of Umar (RA) relates: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of Umar (Ibn-ul-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the grave of Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits. Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, Go over to Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert). He went over to see Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted.References►Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 011, Page No. 118, Hadith Number 32538This Hadith is authenticated as **Sahih** by►Imam Ibn Kathir in Al Bidayah Wan Nihayah Volume No. 5, Page No. 167►Imam Qastallani in al-Mawahib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276)► Ibn-e-Taymiya in Fi-Iqtida-as-Sirat-il-Mustaqim (Vol.1, Page 373) Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani in "Fath ul Bari" وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق Ibn Abu Shaybah transmitted it with a "SOUND CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION" the narration from Abi Salih as Samaan from Malik al Dar the treasurer of Umar (ra) that : The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (Ibn al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream… till the end of hadith. Sayf narrates in his Fatuh, the one who saw the dream was Bilal bin Harith al Mazni who was one of the sahaba. [Fath ul Bari : Volume No.2, Page No. 495]
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Umm Malik
04-08-2017, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by azc
I think you should believe in this fact that they had better abilities than us to distinguish between haq and batil. We can't imagine of them being involved in shirk, if believed otherwise foundations of Islam will be shattered.
I don't say this ... but I said that they didn't do so
And as long as we are followers to them we should do what they did without adding in our religion
But I mention shih Hadith and a verse from the Quran
You aren't live with the strange shouyoukh of sufism how much things are adding to the religion but the general sufis don't know about it
I just asked you to be careful ... but we all Muslims alhamdulillah ... may Allah accept the good and forgive our mistakes
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azc
04-08-2017, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Umm Malik
I don't say this ... but I said that they didn't do so And as long as we are followers to them we should do what they did without adding in our religionBut I mention shih Hadith and a verse from the Quran You aren't live with the strange shouyoukh of sufism how much things are adding to the religion but the general sufis don't know about it I just asked you to be careful ... but we all Muslims alhamdulillah ... may Allah accept the good and forgive our mistakes
I'm not adhered to any sufi shaykh though but I think tasawwuf is not untouchable, however, some sufis are deviants and propagate their wrong ideology but all shuyookh are not wrong. Sadly, we are indifferent to purification of innerself.
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Umm Malik
04-08-2017, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by azc
I'm not adhered to any sufi shaykh though but I think tasawwuf is not untouchable, however, some sufis are deviants and propagate their wrong ideology but all shuyookh are not wrong. Sadly, we are indifferent to purification of innerself.
Alhamdulillah
May Allah help you and keep us in the best way
We all need to purify our innerselves
May he accept our good deeds and forgive our mistakes
Amen !
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azc
04-08-2017, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Umm Malik
Alhamdulillah May Allah help you and keep us in the best wayWe all need to purify our innerselves May he accept our good deeds and forgive our mistakes Amen !
AmeenI advise you to read surah al shams
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OmAbdullah
04-08-2017, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by azc
this is how they prove their aqida: https://makashfa.wordpress.com/2012/...an-and-hadith/


These verses of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) were revealed when umar rAa killed a Munaafiq because the munaafiq didn't accept the Judgment passed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. He had dispute with a jew on land etc. So the two went to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam because the jew was right and he wanted the Judgment by the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. The Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam heard the story and decided the case in favor of the Jew. When they came out, the munaafiq refused to accept the judgment of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and insisted to go to Umar rAa. Umar rAa, after listening to the story, decided the case in favor of the Jew because the Jew was true in his statement. Then right there the Jew said to the munaafiq, "didn't I tell you that Umar's decision shall be the same as that of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam?"


Umar rAa, on hearing this asked, "did you go to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam before me?" The Jew said, "yes" and then he told him the story. Umar rAa advised them to wait there and he entered his house, and returned with a sword. He then killed the munaafiq right there and then!!!


After that the relatives of the munaafiq went to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and complained against Umar rAa that he killed a mo'min!!! Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam became upset on that action of Umar rAa that why he killed a mo'min!!! Allah Azza wa Jall revealed these verses and clearly informed Him and us all that they cannot be believers until they take Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam to be their Judge and then accept His decision with clear/ open heart/mind. I am giving the translation of those verses as follows:


(4:60) (O Messenger!) Have you not seen those who claim to believe in the Book which has been revealed to you and in the Books revealed before you, and yet desire to submit their disputes to the judgement of taghut (the Satanic authorities who decide independently of the Law of Allah), whereas they had been asked to reject it.91 And Satan seeks to make them drift far away from the right way.



(4:61) When they are told: 'Come to that which Allah has revealed, and come to the Messenger', you will notice the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.92


(4:62) But what happens when some misfortune visits them because of their own misdeeds? Then, they come to you swearing by Allah,93 saying: 'We wanted nothing but to do good and to bring about conciliation (between the two parties)'.



(4:63) As for them, Allah knows what is in their hearts. Leave them alone, admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves.


(4:64) (And tell them that) We never sent a Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah.94 If whenever they wronged themselves they had come to you praying to Allah for forgiveness, and had the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would indeed have found Allah All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.



(4:65) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true believers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submission.95

***********************************************
Now you all can see the context of the verses. They came down for us to follow the law and judgment given by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. These verses have no connection with the false story given in the link in the previous post!! The readers should note the following points:


Dreams cannot be used as evidence for Shariyah,

The statement given in the link is completely against the teachings of the Quraan and Sunnah,


When the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive, the sahaabah requested Him to pray for them. But after His death, He is not present everywhere listening to our du'aa. It is only Allah Ta'aala WHO is present everywhere and hears and answers our du'aa. We can pray to Allah to give us the intercession of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam on the Day of Judgment.
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Umm Malik
04-08-2017, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by OmAbdullah



These verses of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) were revealed when umar rAa killed a Munaafiq because the munaafiq didn't accept the Judgment passed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. He had dispute with a jew on land etc. So the two went to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam because the jew was right and he wanted the Judgment by the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. The Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam heard the story and decided the case in favor of the Jew. When they came out, the munaafiq refused to accept the judgment of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and insisted to go to Umar rAa. Umar rAa, after listening to the story, decided the case in favor of the Jew because the Jew was true in his statement. Then right there the Jew said to the munaafiq, "didn't I tell you that Umar's decision shall be the same as that of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam?"


Umar rAa, on hearing this asked, "did you go to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam before me?" The Jew said, "yes" and then he told him the story. Umar rAa advised them to wait there and he entered his house, and returned with a sword. He then killed the munaafiq right there and then!!!


After that the relatives of the munaafiq went to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and complained against Umar rAa that he killed a mo'min!!! Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam became upset on that action of Umar rAa that why he killed a mo'min!!! Allah Azza wa Jall revealed these verses and clearly informed Him and us all that they cannot be believers until they take Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam to be their Judge and then accept His decision with clear/ open heart/mind. I am giving the translation of those verses as follows:


(4:60) (O Messenger!) Have you not seen those who claim to believe in the Book which has been revealed to you and in the Books revealed before you, and yet desire to submit their disputes to the judgement of taghut (the Satanic authorities who decide independently of the Law of Allah), whereas they had been asked to reject it.91 And Satan seeks to make them drift far away from the right way.



(4:61) When they are told: 'Come to that which Allah has revealed, and come to the Messenger', you will notice the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.92


(4:62) But what happens when some misfortune visits them because of their own misdeeds? Then, they come to you swearing by Allah,93 saying: 'We wanted nothing but to do good and to bring about conciliation (between the two parties)'.



(4:63) As for them, Allah knows what is in their hearts. Leave them alone, admonish them, and say to them penetrating words about themselves.


(4:64) (And tell them that) We never sent a Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah.94 If whenever they wronged themselves they had come to you praying to Allah for forgiveness, and had the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would indeed have found Allah All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.



(4:65) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true believers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submission.95

***********************************************
Now you all can see the context of the verses. They came down for us to follow the law and judgment given by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. These verses have no connection with the false story given in the link in the previous post!! The readers should note the following points:


Dreams cannot be used as evidence for Shariyah,

The statement given in the link is completely against the teachings of the Quraan and Sunnah,


When the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive, the sahaabah requested Him to pray for them. But after His death, He is not present everywhere listening to our du'aa. It is only Allah Ta'aala WHO is present everywhere and hears and answers our du'aa. We can pray to Allah to give us the intercession of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam on the Day of Judgment.
JAzaki lahu khayran, this is what I wanted to say
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azc
04-09-2017, 03:58 AM
Plz see post #35....
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OmAbdullah
04-09-2017, 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by Umm Malik
JAzaki lahu khayran, this is what I wanted to say

Assalaamo alaikum wa jazaaki-Allaho khayran katheeran katheera.
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OmAbdullah
04-09-2017, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by azc
أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا. فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس. فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.Malik ad-Dar i.e. treasurer of Umar (RA) relates: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of Umar (Ibn-ul-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the grave of Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits. Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, Go over to Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert). He went over to see Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted.References►Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 011, Page No. 118, Hadith Number 32538This Hadith is authenticated as **Sahih** by►Imam Ibn Kathir in Al Bidayah Wan Nihayah Volume No. 5, Page No. 167►Imam Qastallani in al-Mawahib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276)► Ibn-e-Taymiya in Fi-Iqtida-as-Sirat-il-Mustaqim (Vol.1, Page 373) Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani in "Fath ul Bari" وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق Ibn Abu Shaybah transmitted it with a "SOUND CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION" the narration from Abi Salih as Samaan from Malik al Dar the treasurer of Umar (ra) that : The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (Ibn al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream… till the end of hadith. Sayf narrates in his Fatuh, the one who saw the dream was Bilal bin Harith al Mazni who was one of the sahaba. [Fath ul Bari : Volume No.2, Page No. 495]


We have clear definition of Hadeeth. That is:


The saying of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam, His actions and His approvals. His approvals means that some companion did something and the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam remained silent on it i.e. he didn't stop them from that action. All that happened in His life.


Are people now making additions to the deen, forging another series of ahaadeeth from their lust, that they claim to have been approved by Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam in their dream, which by the way has no way of verification and no authority in religion.

why are you bringing these questionable heretic things? you are twisted. stop trying to change the religion.
Reply

ZeeshanParvez
04-09-2017, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by azc
أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا. فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس. فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.Malik ad-Dar i.e. treasurer of Umar (RA) relates: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of Umar (Ibn-ul-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the grave of Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits. Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, Go over to Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert). He went over to see Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted.References►Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 011, Page No. 118, Hadith Number 32538This Hadith is authenticated as **Sahih** by►Imam Ibn Kathir in Al Bidayah Wan Nihayah Volume No. 5, Page No. 167►Imam Qastallani in al-Mawahib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276)► Ibn-e-Taymiya in Fi-Iqtida-as-Sirat-il-Mustaqim (Vol.1, Page 373) Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani in "Fath ul Bari" وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق Ibn Abu Shaybah transmitted it with a "SOUND CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION" the narration from Abi Salih as Samaan from Malik al Dar the treasurer of Umar (ra) that : The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (Ibn al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream… till the end of hadith. Sayf narrates in his Fatuh, the one who saw the dream was Bilal bin Harith al Mazni who was one of the sahaba. [Fath ul Bari : Volume No.2, Page No. 495]
Brother, did you copy past that from this Brawelvi website?
Reply

ZeeshanParvez
04-09-2017, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by azc
أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا. فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس. فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.Malik ad-Dar i.e. treasurer of Umar (RA) relates: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of Umar (Ibn-ul-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the grave of Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits. Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, Go over to Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert). He went over to see Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted.References►Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 011, Page No. 118, Hadith Number 32538This Hadith is authenticated as **Sahih** by►Imam Ibn Kathir in Al Bidayah Wan Nihayah Volume No. 5, Page No. 167►Imam Qastallani in al-Mawahib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276)► Ibn-e-Taymiya in Fi-Iqtida-as-Sirat-il-Mustaqim (Vol.1, Page 373) Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani in "Fath ul Bari" وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق Ibn Abu Shaybah transmitted it with a "SOUND CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION" the narration from Abi Salih as Samaan from Malik al Dar the treasurer of Umar (ra) that : The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (Ibn al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream… till the end of hadith. Sayf narrates in his Fatuh, the one who saw the dream was Bilal bin Harith al Mazni who was one of the sahaba. [Fath ul Bari : Volume No.2, Page No. 495]
Those versed in the science of hadith will tell you that one does not only look at the chain of narrators of a hadiith or narration.

Scholars dispute the chain of narrators of the narration you have posted. Let's put that aside for now.

Scholars also look at the matn of the hadith to find defects. The chain could be authentic; if the matn shows defects the hadith or narration is still categorized as weak.

In the weak narration you have posted there are defects in the matn.

Islamic legislation stipulates the prayer for rain when such happens. The Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alahyhi wa sallam) is to pray for rain (salaat al-istisqa’). This is the Sunnah.

What the matn suggests goes against this. That is the first defect in the matn. You can read about this prayer for rain here.

Second, we have an authentic hadith in Sahih al-Bukhaari where Umar (Allaah is pleased with him) went to the Messenger of Allaah's (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam)uncle for Tawassul because he was alive. He mentioned that himself. You can read about that here.

That is the second defect in the matn of this narration. What this narration suggests is not what Umar was known to do.

Finally, Maalik daar is unknown. That is the defect in the chain.

All of these defects show that the narration is weak. It cannot be used for evidence.
Reply

azc
04-09-2017, 01:03 PM
^ You are right. I found this article suitable for this thread, so shared it.
Reply

azc
04-09-2017, 01:47 PM
I don't wish to enlarge this discussion as it entails unnecessary disputes. I believe that Hazrat Umar ra knew Islam better than us and our scholars and he was aware of shirk and kufr as well.
Reply

Umm Malik
04-09-2017, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by azc
أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا. فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس. فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.Malik ad-Dar i.e. treasurer of Umar (RA) relates: The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of Umar (Ibn-ul-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the grave of Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah! ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits. Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream. The Prophet (SAW) said to him, Go over to Umar, give him my regards and tell him that the rain will come to you. And tell Umar that he should be on his toes, he should be on his toes (he should remain alert). He went over to see Umar and passed on to him the tidings. On hearing this, Umar broke into a spurt of crying. He said, O Allah, I exert myself to the full until I am completely exhausted.References►Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Volume 011, Page No. 118, Hadith Number 32538This Hadith is authenticated as **Sahih** by►Imam Ibn Kathir in Al Bidayah Wan Nihayah Volume No. 5, Page No. 167►Imam Qastallani in al-Mawahib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276)► Ibn-e-Taymiya in Fi-Iqtida-as-Sirat-il-Mustaqim (Vol.1, Page 373) Imam Ibn Hajr al Asqalani in "Fath ul Bari" وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة،وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق Ibn Abu Shaybah transmitted it with a "SOUND CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION" the narration from Abi Salih as Samaan from Malik al Dar the treasurer of Umar (ra) that : The people were gripped by famine during the tenure of 'Umar (Ibn al-Khattab). Then a man walked up to the Prophet's grave and said, "O Messenger of Allah, please ask for rain from Allah for your Ummah who is in dire straits." Then he saw the Prophet (SAW) in dream… till the end of hadith. Sayf narrates in his Fatuh, the one who saw the dream was Bilal bin Harith al Mazni who was one of the sahaba. [Fath ul Bari : Volume No.2, Page No. 495]
IF I want to ask Allah for any thing
I will ask him in my home in my sujoud
But I know how much Allah love the prophet muhammad
But I don't hear any hadith from the prophet to tell me that I need to put any one in the middle to ask Allah
He is so close to us
We need to ask him as he tells us and as the prophet said
If we need to ask Allah through the prophet ... he would tells us while he alive nor after his death and through a dream
Because in sufism in tijani way for example they also belive that there a new prayer upon the prophet
the owner of this way seen a dream and then that began to flow this way they believe that if you say that saying it will be batter than reading all kind of thikr and you will be better than the pious person who do ibadah
It clean all the sin as they believe
And they say : if you count one hundred thousand nation in each nation one hundred thousand tribe in each tribe hundred thousand of person each person live hundred thousand year and he spends all his life saying salatu Ala Nabi without salatu lfatih it won't benefit him
Subhanallah
What about the prophet's hadiths
They belive that those things was hidden till the time of tijani
Can you belive this ??
We also see them when stay in shrine is this not association with Allah
They say different dikrs in the different ways of sufism every one have his own just as purification ??
The Quran is sufficient for us
The sunnah of the prophet is enough for us
They put a lot of new things just by ddream .... the people who are in a rank more than general have something calling to put intention in the awliyya Allah salihin in the night about something and after they sleep and see a dream they would tell you to do or to not do this thing who make night intention about
What about istikhara ... isn't better to be mowahiid
I can't see the truth and hide it
That is what I have to say
May Allah guide us
To Be in the first step in sufism it doesn't have all those wrong doing but the steps after it have to be careful because would have a lot of deviation
And even if the general people don't know about it but it's a fact in all the ways
To see a person who stop being marry or being close to his wife after INCREASING to a rank of sufism isn't like what Allah says about the Christian
( ( 27 ) Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah. But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient
related both by Bukhari ant by Muslim, one of the Companions said that he would keep up Prayers throughout the night; another said that he would fast perpetually without ever observing a break; and a third one said the he would never marry and would have nothing to do with women. When the Holy Prophet (upon whom be Allah's peace) came to know of what they had resolved, he said: 'By God, I fear Allah the most and remain conscious of Him at all times; yet my way is that I observe the fast as well as break it; I keep up the Prayer during the night as well as have sleep; and I marry the women also. The one who dces not follow my way, does not belong to me "
So if you say I wouldn't do so fur sure ... I will tell then you are from general people in sufism because they have rank ... this rank and they have mkadam who take the sirr or secret from the Shaykh and so on
i can give more but my english dosnt help
As for this hadith I was trying to translate to explanation of the validity of this hadith and I am sorry if it have some mistakes due to my bad english


This is a weak attribution that is not invoked, and Malik adar is unknown
As for the hadeeth of al-Haafiz (may Allaah have mercy on him) in al-Fath (2/495):
" رواه ابن أَبِي شَيْبَةَ بِإِسْنَادٍ صَحِيحٍ مِنْ رِوَايَةِ أَبِي صَالِحٍ السَّمَّانِ عَنْ مَالِكٍ الدَّارِ "
He said that it is correct to attribute to Abu Salih only, and he did not rule on all the attribution as true, so he did not say: Narrated by Ibn Abi Shaybah with correct attribution, as is the habit in correcting the news.

And al-Dhahabi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Sir (2/412): Al-'Omash said of Abu Salih about the Malik dar ... He did not judge his validity or his weakness,
Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said about this effect, so he quoted his words as saying for his benefit: He said, may allah have mercy on him,
"The answer of the object:
The first is not acknowledging the validity of this story, because Malik adar is not known for justice and discipline. These are two basic conditions in every true sanad, as was decided in the science of the term. It was reported by Ibn Abi Hatim in " Jarh wa Ta'deel" the science of jarh (criticizing) and of ta'deel (praising)
this is according to the notice that he is unknown, and he supports him that Ibn Abi Hatem himself - with his capacity of memorizing and his knowledge - did not say about him that he is trustful, so he remained ignorance, and this does not contradict the saying of Al-Hafiz: "with the correct attribution of Abu Salih Al-Saman ..." he doesn't say this to correct all the sand "the chain of narrators of the hadith" , but to Abu Saleh only <till him> , otherwise he wouldn't begin to support from abu Saleh, he would say directly: "About Malik adar ... And the scholars do so for reasons that include: that they may not attend the biography of some narrators, do not allow themselves to delete the whole sanad , because of it bug especially when it is inferred from it, Rather, the same was made here by al-Haafiz (may Allaah have mercy on him) , as if it refers to the uniqueness of Abu Salih al-Samman from Malik addar, as it was previously quoted from Ibn Abi Hatim. He thus refers to the necessity of ascertaining malik's condition or referring to his ignorance .
And allah knows best

And This is a Fine science that is known only to those who practice it, and to supports what I have said that al-Hafiz al-Mundhari mentioned in al-Targheeb (2 / 41-42)
(2 / 41-42) Another story of Malik addar about Omar, and then said: "Narrated by al-Tabarani in the" alkabir ", and he said: And his narrators are trustworthy, but I do not know Malik addar . " Al-Haythami also said in majma'e al-Zu'ayyed (3/125)
The second aspect is that it is contrary to what is proven in sharee'ah that it is mustahabb to pray the prayer of istiskaa in order to get rain " ghaith" , as was stated in many hadeeths, and the masses of the imams took it, but they are contrary to what the verse says of supplication and seeking forgiveness.
In surat Nuh :
( 10 ) And said, 'Ask forgiveness of your Lord. Indeed, He is ever a Perpetual Forgiver.
( 11 ) He will send [rain from] the sky upon you in [continuing] showers
( 12 ) And give you increase in wealth and children and provide for you gardens and provide for you rivers.
( 13 ) What is [the matter] with you that you do not attribute to Allah [due] grandeur
To be continued ...
Reply

azc
04-09-2017, 06:42 PM
^All the objections on narration of malik al darr have been answered. So I am not interested to enlarge this thread any more.
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