PDA

View Full Version : Three Shattered Myths - Babr Ahmad



MinAhlilHadeeth
05-08-2006, 10:55 AM
Three Shattered Myths
Babar Ahmad





During the last twelve months, there were three beliefs (or should I say myths) that I had about Britain, which have been shattered. I will attempt to elaborate on each of the three myths in turn and describe how they were shattered for me.



(i) Torture does not exist in Britain



Prior to December 2003, I admit that I had a positive opinion about British Police. Since I had never been arrested before, my only experiences with the police were limited to asking directions from a polite ‘bobby’ or watching eloquent Police spokespersons on the TV. I knew that white Police officers in the US, South Africa, etc. regularly assault coloured people, including Muslims. However, I was under the impression that Britain has a whole different ethos based on human rights, etc. and these things just do not happen here. How stupid and naïve I was.



When, on that early morning on 02 December 2003, I heard my front door smashed open and saw several huge Police officers, wearing enough pads to put a cricketer to shame, coming upstairs, I was unsettled but had a good idea of what was to follow. I thought that a senior officer would ask to search my house, showing me a warrant, or in the worst case arrest me. Suddenly, I heard the first “F-word”, directed at me and I was shocked, thinking, “Police officers don’t swear on duty?” I had obviously not lived in Britain long enough. Then two of these beasts grabbed me and smashed my head into the bedroom window, shattering the glass and along with it, the myth that torture does not exist in Britain. Even then, I thought that some over-zealous racist Police officers just wanted to rough me up until the senior officer arrived. Little did I know that he was already there.



Then I was thrown face-down onto the floor and punched repeatedly by several policemen. One of the perverts reached down and tugged at my genitals. By then, I was paralysed; more with shock and disbelief than with pain. I was thinking to myself, “What is happening? These are Police officers? These are Anti-Terrorist Branch detectives? They are not supposed to be hitting me like this?” I really was a naïve, ignorant idiot. A naïve, ignorant, so-called ‘British Muslim’.



The next half-an-hour is history, which I have already recounted many times so I will not repeat it here. I can try to be macho and say that I handled the torture and pain. Or I can be a human being and say that they were the worst 30 minutes of my life, every minute of which was like a lifetime. The colour photographs of my injuries speak louder than any expert medical report or waffle from some articulate Home Office spokeswoman.



Torture does exist in Britain. The only difference between the torture in Britain and that, in say the US, is that ‘human rights’ groups are not brave enough to admit it.



(ii) Britain does not lock people up without good reason



Whilst I have always been sceptical of the actions of the US law enforcement authorities, I used to respect the professionalism of the British law enforcement authorities. I have to admit, that when I saw dozens of Muslims (mainly North-Africans) being rounded up in Britain post 9/11, I would always think that there must have been good reasons to lock these people up. I would say to myself, “The British authorities don’t lock people up for nothing. There is no smoke without fire. Maybe these people did have explosives, terrorist plans and maps in their possession?” Unlike countries such as France and the US, notorious for locking up anything with a beard and two legs, I used to think that the British are more professional: they pick the needle from the haystack rather than the whole haystack itself. How ignorant I was.



And then my own door was kicked down in December 2003, my houses ransacked and I saw for myself what seemed to be the basis of my arrest. For seven days, I was not questioned about any terrorist attacks, suicide bombers and explosives, but about my political views and opinions. My fingerprints, DNA and hair samples were sent to several countries around the world, including the US. Then I was released without charge. With a gift for my inconvenience: 50 injuries including blood in my ears and urine. How thoughtful of the Anti-Terrorist Branch.



I was re-arrested in August 2004 because I had to be silenced once and for all. After all, it doesn’t help the Government’s scaremongering ‘Anti-Terror’ agenda to have some little Paki going round whinging and whining to everyone about how he was tortured by the Anti-Terrorist Branch: one of the ‘elite’ Police departments in the country. I mean, talk of British detectives making fun of the Muslim prayer and throwing the Quran onto the floor doesn’t really go down too well in the conservative Arab world, especially when there are hearts and minds (and lucrative business contracts) to be won.



Having seen the ‘evidence’ upon which my re-arrest is based, I sometimes wonder whether it is a dream or reality. Am I in prison because of my father’s 1973 tourist brochure of the Empire State Building?



Britain does lock people up without good reason. I didn’t use to believe that myself until it happened to me. And during these last few months, I have met several others who have been locked up without good reason.



(iii) Formal written complaints achieve results in Britain



I had always been an admirer of Britain’s formal written complaints system: customer service, statutory rights, Ombudsmans, etc. Formal written complaints had always achieved results for me, whether Sainsbury’s reimbursing me for bitter-tasting Spanish strawberries or the Council cancelling an unjust parking ticket.



However, when it came to something a little more significant than strawberries and parking tickets, namely beating and torturing an unarmed man almost to death, I thought that this formal written complaints system would finally bear fruits when I needed it most. We made complaints to the Police, the ‘Independent’ (or should I say dependent?) Police Complaints Commission, the General Medical Council and the Home Office, to name but a few.



A year down the line, I am sitting in a 5m x 2m prison cell whilst Police have determined that their officers are innocent (surprise, surprise), the Crown Prosecution Service has said that there is ‘insufficient evidence’ to prosecute any Police officers, the ‘Independent’ Police Complaints Commission has sided with the police, the General Medical Council has not even started an investigation into the misconduct of the Police doctors who examined me, and the Home Office ‘refuses to comment’, as always.



Tomorrow it will be your turn and the turn of your children. If you decide to protest against unjust extradition and internment laws, then do it for the sake of your children, not for the sake of Babar Ahmad. When that time comes, Babar Ahmad could be having his face smeared by the menstrual blood of an American prostitute in Guantanamo Bay. Babar Ahmad could be dead. But at least you can’t say that he didn’t warn you. Next time you kiss or hug your child, look at his or her face and imagine that face being punched and kicked by a 7 foot Anti-Terrorist Branch Police officer. Next time you tell your MP that you won’t vote for them until they oppose these unjust extradition and internment laws, think about that face. That face is what you should campaign for. And that face is what is at stake if you choose to remain silent.



I read with interest the Guardian’s Special Report on British Muslims (Young, British and Muslim, 30th November 2004) and felt pity at these young, naïve, second-generation British Muslim professionals, going on about how they feel they are an equal part of today’s Britain. Poor souls, I thought. I used to be like you once upon a time.



You may not agree with what I have written. You may think that I have made far-fetched assumptions. You may believe that I am living in ‘cloud cuckoo land’. But at least you have to admit that I have seen from my clouds what you have not seen.



British Political Prisoner Babar Ahmad MX5383

HMP Woodhill, MK4 4DA





Courtesy of Cageprisoners.com
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
mizan_aliashraf
05-08-2006, 10:56 AM
Salam
May Allah hasten his release and surround him with protection
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-08-2006, 10:59 AM
Ameen!
:w:
Reply

HeiGou
05-10-2006, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
(i) Torture does not exist in Britain

Prior to December 2003, I admit that I had a positive opinion about British Police.
Which is hard to reconcile with his previous neo-Khariji political beliefs. I assume that he does not mean this.

When, on that early morning on 02 December 2003, I heard my front door smashed open and saw several huge Police officers, wearing enough pads to put a cricketer to shame, coming upstairs, I was unsettled but had a good idea of what was to follow. I thought that a senior officer would ask to search my house, showing me a warrant, or in the worst case arrest me.
Obviously the law has to deal with potential suicide bombers a little differently.

Then two of these beasts grabbed me and smashed my head into the bedroom window, shattering the glass and along with it, the myth that torture does not exist in Britain.
I see no signs of torture. I see policeman attempting to immobilise a potential suicide bomber or the like as quickly as possible. In the circumstances this looks like reasonable force to me.

Then I was thrown face-down onto the floor and punched repeatedly by several policemen. One of the perverts reached down and tugged at my genitals.
Tugged? Weird. Perhaps they were searching him for a bomb belt and he misunderstood?

The next half-an-hour is history, which I have already recounted many times so I will not repeat it here. I can try to be macho and say that I handled the torture and pain. Or I can be a human being and say that they were the worst 30 minutes of my life, every minute of which was like a lifetime. The colour photographs of my injuries speak louder than any expert medical report or waffle from some articulate Home Office spokeswoman.
And assault which did not break any bones or inflict any permanent damage from what I can see. Would that be right? A pity he does not go into details because then we could see if it was justified or not.

I have to admit, that when I saw dozens of Muslims (mainly North-Africans) being rounded up in Britain post 9/11, I would always think that there must have been good reasons to lock these people up.
Well I'll give him the benefit of the doubt although I fail to see how he can reconcile this with his alleged practices.

I was re-arrested in August 2004 because I had to be silenced once and for all. After all, it doesn’t help the Government’s scaremongering ‘Anti-Terror’ agenda to have some little Paki going round whinging and whining to everyone about how he was tortured by the Anti-Terrorist Branch: one of the ‘elite’ Police departments in the country.
Again this simply proves he is out to make propaganda and not talk sensibly about what happened. He was not arrested to silence him or because he was "some little Paki" but because he is wanted in the US on terrorism-related charges.

Having seen the ‘evidence’ upon which my re-arrest is based, I sometimes wonder whether it is a dream or reality. Am I in prison because of my father’s 1973 tourist brochure of the Empire State Building?
Again he is just lying about the reasons for the charges against him.

Britain does lock people up without good reason. I didn’t use to believe that myself until it happened to me. And during these last few months, I have met several others who have been locked up without good reason.
If there is not a good reason here it is hard to think of a good reason.

Tomorrow it will be your turn and the turn of your children. If you decide to protest against unjust extradition and internment laws, then do it for the sake of your children, not for the sake of Babar Ahmad.
Actually I am more likely to be killed by a suicide bomber or by have my throat cut. Frankly I find it hard to muster a great deal of sympathy. Yes he has been roughed up by the police. Yes it is terrible he is being extradited on somewhat nebulous charges. But people are blowing themselves up in London and Madrid. Something has to be done. This is something. It may not be the best thing but if not this what?
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
MinAhlilHadeeth
05-10-2006, 02:50 PM
I wonder, has your partner ever had a miscarriage? Do you know how horrible that feels? What if it happened as a direct result of someone else? How would that make you feel? But i doubt that has ever happened to you. Well, if it happened to you, you would be speaking differently. But then again, you're not Muslim are you? Are you a little tanned? They might think you're an arab, these policemen aren't very bright you see. They probably thought that Brazilian was an arab. Hmm, do you have a little facial hair? That won't help either. Do they have the shoot-to-kill policy where you live? Who knows, maybe it could be your children who face this tomorrow.
I'm sorry you are so blinded. Please open your eyes. And don't be so quick to assume he is lying and spreading propaganda.
Oh, and what pictures have you googled anyway?
Reply

HeiGou
05-10-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
I wonder, has your partner ever had a miscarriage? Do you know how horrible that feels? What if it happened as a direct result of someone else? How would that make you feel? But i doubt that has ever happened to you. Well, if it happened to you, you would be speaking differently. But then again, you're not Muslim are you? Are you a little tanned? They might think you're an arab, these policemen aren't very bright you see. They probably thought that Brazilian was an arab. Hmm, do you have a little facial hair? That won't help either. Do they have the shoot-to-kill policy where you live? Who knows, maybe it could be your children who face this tomorrow.
I'm sorry you are so blinded. Please open your eyes. And don't be so quick to assume he is lying and spreading propaganda.
Oh, and what pictures have you googled anyway?
Miscarriages are not the fault of the police, nor are they predictable or avoidable. They are in God's hands. God knows best.

I might be a little tanned and I might pass for an Arab if I stood in the sun for a while. You ought to see my cousin who has a big beard and a shaven head! So far the British police have killed one person. By mistake. Who they probably did think was an Arab. Suicide bombers have killed, what?, 72? I think I know where the real risk lies. You might feel less safe with the police but I think there are people from the Muslim community out there who want to kill me. They have tried. The chances of me being killed by a policeman are, I think, smaller and more justifiable than the chances of me being killed by a suicide bomber.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-10-2006, 02:58 PM
Oh my God, PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO KILL YOU? You must be like part of the mafia or something.
Anyway, you may be more safe... but i'm not. I mean, i wonder what the police would do if they kicked down my door. I'm just a 17 year old girl (nomatter how hard core you think I am). And this quite frightens me.
And is your cousin Muslim? Coz he sounds way cool.
Reply

HeiGou
05-10-2006, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Oh my God, PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO KILL YOU? You must be like part of the mafia or something.
Well not me personally. Just me in general.

Anyway, you may be more safe... but i'm not. I mean, i wonder what the police would do if they kicked down my door. I'm just a 17 year old girl (nomatter how hard core you think I am). And this quite frightens me.
And is your cousin Muslim? Coz he sounds way cool.
No I am afraid not. He gets a rough time at airports though. The score is still about 72 terrorist victims to 1 dead Brazilian and 1 Muslim guy roughed up by the Counter-Terrorist Squad. I think I know who is the more dangerous.
Reply

x Maz x
05-10-2006, 05:40 PM
Ameen...http://www.freebarbarahmad.com <<I think thats the site! WalaykumAsalaam x
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 08:44 AM
jzk sis.
Ok then. I mean, you're not going to have someone shove tubes down your nose and mouth just because you want to have some rights. It doesn't really concern you does it? Like Babar Ahmad said, you won't have some prostitute smearing menstrual blood on your face. I'm sorry i bothered you with such meagre issues.
-Peace
Reply

HeiGou
05-12-2006, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Ok then. I mean, you're not going to have someone shove tubes down your nose and mouth just because you want to have some rights.
Well no, chances are pretty low. I may have someone slowly and incompetently hack my head off though. Or I may be blown up on a bus. Or something even worse. I measure up the risks and consequences: chance of having tubes up my nose? (low), consequences? (embarrassing but not life-threatening). Chance of having my head hacked off slowly and incompetently? (low, but higher than the above), consequences? (death in a few minutes). I think I'll go with the terrorist squad. You may not feel they are there to protect you, but I think they are there to protect me.

It doesn't really concern you does it? Like Babar Ahmad said, you won't have some prostitute smearing menstrual blood on your face. I'm sorry i bothered you with such meagre issues.
As compared to having my head hacked off? I think I could live with some red ink pretending to be menstrual blood. May I ask, is it the neglible risk that a misguided Brother will hack your head off that makes you so utterly indifferent to the risks the rest of us run or is it something else?

The score card remains: the police have killed one and beaten up one more. The terrorists have killed fifty-six people, sorry fewer than I thought, and injured about 700. Let's ask Mr Ahmad if he would prefer to be roughed up or have a bomb severe both his legs at the thigh.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 09:06 AM
Ok. Fair enough, look after number one. The government is trying to confuse us though. The war in Iraq is going to make us safer, but watch out for the terrorists who are hiding behind every bush and trying to saw your head off. And exactly how may I ask will your head be sawn off? You're living in the West I presume. And I think the chances of me havung my head hacked off is next to nil. So we're supposed to feel safer, but also we should look out for the terrorists hiding behind every corner. Yes, the police should definetly be given more power. After all, Osama bin Laden could be hiding under your bed. Woooh.... scary!
Reply

HeiGou
05-12-2006, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Ok. Fair enough, look after number one.
Not only me but all those I know and love. And society as a whole. Which is the greatest danger to Britain - some of your (misguided) Brothers or those policemen? I know the answer to that.

The government is trying to confuse us though. The war in Iraq is going to make us safer, but watch out for the terrorists who are hiding behind every bush and trying to saw your head off. And exactly how may I ask will your head be sawn off? You're living in the West I presume.
Who knows if the war in Iraq will make us safer, but something has to be done. This is something. If not this, what? Are you recommending complete inactivity? I think I run a real risk of having my head cut off. In the West, in parts of Asia, or when I go home. In every place I think there are groups of people who would like to cut off my head. People around here have said as much. What is to be done about that? Should I go a sheep to the slaughter?

And I think the chances of me havung my head hacked off is next to nil.
I agree. They are not after you.

So we're supposed to feel safer, but also we should look out for the terrorists hiding behind every corner. Yes, the police should definetly be given more power. After all, Osama bin Laden could be hiding under your bed. Woooh.... scary!
Again it is easy for you to make fun. They are not after you. They are after me. The scorecard remains 1 dead and 1 injured by the police, 56 dead and 700 wounded by the terrorists in London alone. Kafirs with missing legs and dead loved ones may have more of an impact on me than on you but I would hope not.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 09:53 AM
I don't want any innocent kaafir to get harmed. And i'm not making fun, this how people make it seem. But you are so ready to believe what the media tells you, this is where we differ. And is probably the reason we don't see eye to eye on alot of things.
-Peace
Reply

HeiGou
05-12-2006, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
I don't want any innocent kaafir to get harmed. And i'm not making fun, this how people make it seem. But you are so ready to believe what the media tells you, this is where we differ. And is probably the reason we don't see eye to eye on alot of things.
I have never even begun to think you did want them to be harmed. But you would have to agree that all your policy recommendations would do nothing to stop them being harmed and a great deal to encourage more of them to be harmed. After all, we can't arrested suspected terrorists, we can't deport them, we can't make it illegal to encourage them, we can't extradite them. It sounds as if you want us to put our heads on the chopping block and wait. As I have said before, this may not be the best policy, it may not even be a good policy, but it is a policy and something needs to be done. If not this, what? What would you do about someone like Mr Ahmad who seems to drum up support for what the West calls, with reason, terrorism? Give him an OBE?

I am fairly reasonable on the media front. But I have seen the bomb sites and damage. I do believe that 56 people, innocent people, are dead and over 700 wounded. I do believe that the police murdered a Brazilian by mistake. I do not care if Mr Ahmad got roughed up to be honest. I suspect he is guilty, but I am willing to run that risk. As far as I can see, the difference between us is I think something ought to be done to stop terrorists killing people. You think something ought to be done to stop Israelis killing people.
Reply

IceQueen~
05-12-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
As far as I can see, the difference between us is I think something ought to be done to stop terrorists killing people. You think something ought to be done to stop Israelis killing people.
well if you accepted that israelis are terrorists then we'd have the same views..?
Reply

Muezzin
05-12-2006, 10:08 AM
For those just joing us, this thread isn't about Israel. :)
Reply

Syed Nizam
05-12-2006, 10:09 AM
Hei Gou,

With due respect, i know how u feel about possibly being a victim of any suicide bombers or any terrorists! Me too! And I also know how does it feels like if I'm going to be manhandled by the police as in the case of Babar Ahmad. It's not so difficult to feel how they feels, just pretend that you are facing the same predicament. As far as your statistics goes, feel free to tell your rhetoric to the family of De Menezes, the brazilian shot dead in the head just bcoz some police feels that he is a potential `threat' to the society. I do believe that they will staring with disbelief or perhaps in total rage on your logical statistical conclusions!

That's your problem dude! In one hand you could actually feel the potential pain of being a victim of the suicide bomber (or terrorists), and in the other hand, u could not even grasps the meaning of the potential pain of merely being a suspect of the police force through interrogation, physical and psychological assault.

Where is the morality of accusing and treating somebody as being guilty, just through mere suspicion only? If you so happened to be one of the victim, would u presents flowers and accolades to the police force for `doing up' their job? Would you?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 10:11 AM
He accepts the Israeli government is a terrorist regime sis, or at least that's what I think he told me a while ago.
Well as for you HeiGou, i never said nothing should be done. If he actually was supporting 'terrorists' (which I don't believe he was.... which is why this makes me so UPSET), then... wait I don't even agree with the terminology the West use. 'enemy combatant', 'terrorists', 'moderates', 'extraordinary rendition'. These are all terms that narrow people's thoughts. But getting back on topic, if someone was caught trying to blow up Oxford Street, trust me, i wouldn't say anything if you locked them up and threw away the key. I will never accept the amount of power the police have been given with these new anti-terror laws. You speak of protecting kaafirs, what about us Muslims? Aren't we human too?
Reply

Muezzin
05-12-2006, 10:15 AM
Not to take sides or anything, but exactly when did this thread become 'Interrogate Hei Gou'? :p

I agree that something must be done to prevent terrorism. I also think that great care must be taken, so that things are not rushed into, and so that there is not a repeat of the Demenezes cock-up. I was really angry at the police then, and am still angry when people say 'But he could have been a terrorist' - the fact remains, he was not. He was an illegal immigrant, yes, but Britain doesn't have a shoot-to-kill policy for those people, does it?

I'm not saying do nothing though. I'm saying it's bad in any criminal investigation when innocent people get locked up, just as it's bad in war when civilians are killed.

Note the preceding sentence was drafted in extremely general terms, so any interpretations that members have will be simply a reflection of their own psyche.

Or something.

Happy posting.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 10:18 AM
They shouldn't have a shoot-to-kill policy at all. That's so barabric.
And HeiGou can handle the heat, trust me.
:w:
Reply

Muezzin
05-12-2006, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
They shouldn't have a shoot-to-kill policy at all. That's so barabric.
You know, the cynic in me says 'hey, psychos calling themselves Muslims and strapping bombs to themselves are pretty barbaric too'.

And HeiGou can handle the heat, trust me.
:w:
The moderator in me says you're getting close to 'beefing' (posting to insult etc) now.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 10:31 AM
Me? Insult HeiGou? Never! And i'm not even being sarcastic. I would never intentionally insult HeiGou. I owe him anyway. He's stuck up for me in the past.
:w:
Reply

HeiGou
05-12-2006, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
The moderator in me says you're getting close to 'beefing' (posting to insult etc) now.
Well it is not for me to contradict the Moderators or even argue with them. But I do not feel "beefed". I think people's questions are reasonable. I have given out more than I should have in this thread and I do not feel threatened or insulted. I like and respect pretty much everyone in this thread (as much as I might deplore their choice of signature!) and would hate for anyone to get a warning for anything I was involved in.

And I do think Israel's actions often amount to State terrorism. I agree the police should not shoot illegal immigrants. But I can see how geared up they probably were and how easily that slipped over into stupid and unjust violence. The worst thing for me was that the police lied afterwards - I can't forgive that.

But in the end, something has to be done. Nothing I have seen so far impresses me that much, but it is something. If not this, what? I feel sorry for Mr Ahmad, but if he was buying chemical weapon suits, he should not be out on the streets. This needs to be examined by a court of law and soon.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 02:29 PM
He never did any of that. That's what i'm trying to tell you!
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 02:29 PM
And what's wrong with my sig? Look at what it says... the weapon of TRUTH.
Reply

x Maz x
05-12-2006, 02:42 PM
Yo stop stirring this argument out of control, this is a somewhat constructed debate InshAllah I hope Heigou dont think otherwise and its not very nice undermining the brothers, no-one's going to post abuse hopefully, we are all civilised beings ...i hope laugh out loud, InshAllah maintain mutual respect and continue Peace! x
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 02:49 PM
True sis. I do have respect for HeiGou. I think he knows that (hope so).
And Muezzin, nanananana... see, told you i wasn't beefing!
:w:
Reply

x Maz x
05-12-2006, 02:57 PM
InshAllah...if there is certain tention it would be beneficial for forum users if the somewhat rift between u fellow beings be sorted out via the personal messaging system JazakAllah Khairun, resume back on topic! Peace! x
Reply

Trumble
05-13-2006, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
As far as your statistics goes, feel free to tell your rhetoric to the family of De Menezes, the brazilian shot dead in the head just bcoz some police feels that he is a potential `threat' to the society. I do believe that they will staring with disbelief or perhaps in total rage on your logical statistical conclusions!
If they do, they should perhaps consider the actions of the police in their own country.

Four unarmed young men were shot dead in the community of Borel in Rio de Janeiro during an operation carried out by military police on the afternoon of 16 April. They were Carlos Magno de Oliveira Nascimento (pictured), a student who was in Rio to visit relatives; Everson Gonçalves Silote, a taxi driver; Thiago da Costa Correia da Silva, a mechanic, and Carlos Alberto da Silva Pereira, a painter and builder. Although the precise circumstances that led to the death of the four men are not clear, all the technical evidence and testimony so far indicate that they were summarily executed.

The mother of Carlos Magno de Oliveira Nascimento visited AI in August for the launch of AI's report to mark the 10th anniversaries of the Candelária and Vigário Geral massacres in which eight street children and 21 shanty town residents, all unarmed, were killed by military police.

AI is extremely concerned at the very high levels of police killings in Rio de Janeiro in 2003 and that recent public statements made by politicians in defence of killing criminals appear to have been taken as a "green light" to kill by members of the city’s police forces.
Amnesty International


The De Menezes death was a terrible accident, that may or may not have involved incompetence on the part of officers involved. But it was not a "summary execution", or anything like one.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 12:25 PM
Well if the police shoot you dead, we'll tell them that it's a-okay by you. That's to any one who supports the shoot-to-kill policy!
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Well if the police shoot you dead, we'll tell them that it's a-okay by you. That's to any one who supports the shoot-to-kill policy!
The fact remains terrorists have killed 56 people and wounded over 700 in Britain. Four more tried to do the same shortly after. The police have shot dead one man. Which is worse?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 12:48 PM
So we're comparing police to terrorists now? Don't they have the opposite role?
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
So we're comparing police to terrorists now? Don't they have the opposite role?
Well it beats calling them terrorists! But seriously, I think everyone would accept that what happened to Mr Ahmad was pretty awful and it is sad that he is sitting in jail. But the police need to protect us, well me, from terrorists. In this case Mr Ahmad was a suspected terrorist, the police took no chances. I do not see what is wrong with that in general terms. They do have an opposite role. The police need to concentrate on bad people who are guilty. Not like the terrorists who murder ordinary people who are innocent.

Still the bottom line remains, what else should the police have done? Had a cup of tea with his wife while he got ready?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 01:38 PM
In case you don't know, terrorists don't sleep with a bomb belt on. There's chance of it exploding while you sleep you see. That was totally unnecssary! The police may not be terrorists, but they did terrorise him. And i'm sure his wife would have been happy to make tea for them.
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
In case you don't know, terrorists don't sleep with a bomb belt on.
Never met a terrorist, I wouldn't know. They might for all I know. They might also keep a loaded gun under the pillow. When the police arrest dangerous people they tend to do so in numbers with vests and without knocking. I still see this as sensible and you have still not told me what the alternative might be.

That was totally unnecssary! The police may not be terrorists, but they did terrorise him.
No they did not. They scared him. They may have roughed him up a little. But their aim was to arrest, not scare. They had no political motives. Why was it totally unecessary?

And i'm sure his wife would have been happy to make tea for them.
I am sure she would but are you suggesting this is a sensible way of arresting terrorist suspects?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 02:06 PM
No, i'm just saying his wife is a nice lady. But let's forget about that for a second. The alternative would have been to just handcuff him after they were able to see his was no threat. I mean, wasn't smashing his head against the window enough to get the upper hand? Or did they have to beat the stuffing out of him too? WHAT PICTURES DID YOU SEE?
Because 'rough him up a little bit' isn't correct.
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
No, i'm just saying his wife is a nice lady. But let's forget about that for a second. The alternative would have been to just handcuff him after they were able to see his was no threat. I mean, wasn't smashing his head against the window enough to get the upper hand? Or did they have to beat the stuffing out of him too? WHAT PICTURES DID YOU SEE?
Because 'rough him up a little bit' isn't correct.
I haven't met his wife either but I'll take your word for it. How would they see that he was no threat without, oh I don't know, physically holding him down and searching him? I assume that after they physically held him down and searched him, they handcuffed him and let him walk out of his house. I assume that the smashing of his head against the window did an excellent job of giving the police the upper hand. But I assume they had a plan to deal with him (which probably went something like, smash the door down, all rush into the house screaming "Police! Get down on the floor", locating Mr Ahmad, throwing him to the floor as quickly as possible, searching him for weapons and explosives, handcuffing him etc etc). As far as I can see they did not beat the stuffing out of him. His injuries were to the side of his face (I guess the window and the floor) and his wrists (I'd say several large policemen twsiting them and force him to the ground). But he may have had other injuries I do not know about. I saw the pictures on cagedinmates.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 02:25 PM
Oh... you obviously haven't seen the pics i've seen! He had so many injuries all around his body. And i wonder how that urine got in his ears. And i wonder what pushing him down into prostration position and saying 'where's your God now?' has to do with anything? Yep, must have been part of the pre prepaired plan.
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Oh... you obviously haven't seen the pics i've seen! He had so many injuries all around his body. And i wonder how that urine got in his ears. And i wonder what pushing him down into prostration position and saying 'where's your God now?' has to do with anything? Yep, must have been part of the pre prepaired plan.
Actually wasn't that blood that got into his heads (a blow to the head) and blood that got in his urine (a blow to the kidneys)? I know of no way urine can get into your ears although didn't someone have a thread on jinns doing that sort of thing? It must have been. I have no doubts that being arrested by the Anti-Terrorist Squad is a bruising experience. But I still have not heard of any viable alternatives - send him a text message and ask him to come by after lunch?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Ok, now who's making fun?
How about arrest him without beating the day lights out of him, and oh... get some real proof before you do that.
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Ok, now who's making fun?
How about arrest him without beating the day lights out of him, and oh... get some real proof before you do that.
Well I wouldn't dare make fun of you! In an ideal world I would hope that the police did arrest people without beating them up. But if the people they arrest are suspected of being dangerous or resist arrest in any way, well, I feel bad for them, really I do, but I want them in a cell. And I can see how it must feel to be a young policeman going to a strange place to arrest someone who might be a terrorist. I'd be scared and aggressive too. Well I would have been when I was 24. What real proof? They have enough for a court in America. The UK government thinks it is enough to extradite him. It was enough to arrest him as well. Maybe he is not guilty. Maybe he is.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Well how many innocent men have been arrested before? I'm sure it's more than once.
And why when you were 24? Did something happen then?
I think these men need to do something about their testosterone levels.
Reply

HeiGou
05-14-2006, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Well how many innocent men have been arrested before? I'm sure it's more than once.
I am sure too. But it is still 56 dead people to the terrorists. One beaten up guy who may be innocent to the police.

And why when you were 24? Did something happen then?
I think these men need to do something about their testosterone levels.
I think your second sentence explains your first.

But we can keep going around and around on this. I think it is better to be safe than blown to pieces. You won't come up with any alternative. I suggest we drop it and get on with something productive?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-15-2006, 10:56 AM
Oh right... lol. Well i'm glad you are alot less aggresive now.
Ok, we can drop this if you want.
-Peace
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-04-2013, 10:49 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-10-2011, 10:17 AM
  3. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-29-2011, 12:34 PM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-15-2010, 02:30 PM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-12-2009, 04:23 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!