Question Re: Islam & Christianity

[snakelegs]

a little background. i have never belonged to any religion. i know a little about islam, less about christianity. i find islam more comfortable (not sure what word to use) than christianity.
islam and christianity are both proselytizing religions, so in this sense they are competitors.
question is, can the 2 religions co-exist or is a clash inevitable?

[nimrod]

Snake Legs I would say that depended on the teachings of the respective religions.

Snake Legs, I hope I am not getting to personal here, I have read a number of your posts and you seem like a pretty sensible person.

I hope you don’t see this question as me trying to promote my faith over Islam or that I am trying to imply that a sensible person can’t or wouldn’t favor Islam.

Do you mind telling me what you find more comfortable about Islam than Christianity?

Thanks
Nimrod

[mpowel]

Catholic priest Father William A. Christensen, S.M. is living in Dhaka, Bangladesh and is wanted by the Unites States authorities in connection to performing "Sexual Deviant Acts" on minor boys. The child sexual molester Father William A. Christensen is living in Lalmatia, Bangladesh. He is still working with children. Be advised that this pedophile is still a grave danger to children. Please pass this info on to the Islamic community so there children will to away from Christensen. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...52187#continue
Here is a website that explains the amount of trouble that Christensen is hiding out from. The Catholic Church has been harbouring this child molester for years. Please inform your Islamic community. Walk in Peace

[kilobravo]

Yes. The clash is inevitable. Without getting into the theology (which I will gladly do) just look at the history of the Muslim faith and look at modern examples of this clash. When a Muslim is converted to Christianity, why is he hunted down by secret police, tortured, and almost forced to renounce his faith? This happened to someone I know from Eygpt (and I know it especially happens in other ME countries). Why did the Prophet Muhammad have such a hatred toward Jews and Chritians even during his lifetime (after his first year in Medina)? Abraham of the Old Testament had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael is the father of the Arabs, and Isaac is the father of the Jews. Two separate paths were taken, and now these two faiths are the most rivaled faiths in the world. I'll be happy to give you any information about Chritianity that I can give you, just ask.

God Bless.

p.s. --hi, nimrod. nice to see another Arkansan.

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[north_malaysian]

I do believe that Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Satanists can live together as long as they dont interfere in other part's religious affairs.

[north_malaysian]

Catholic priest Father William A. Christensen, S.M. is living in Dhaka, Bangladesh and is wanted by the Unites States authorities in connection to performing "Sexual Deviant Acts" on minor boys. The child sexual molester Father William A. Christensen is living in Lalmatia, Bangladesh. He is still working with children. Be advised that this pedophile is still a grave danger to children. Please pass this info on to the Islamic community so there children will to away from Christensen. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...52187#continue
Here is a website that explains the amount of trouble that Christensen is hiding out from. The Catholic Church has been harbouring this child molester for years. Please inform your Islamic community. Walk in Peace

What the h*ll is this? What it has to do with this thread?:rollseyes

[north_malaysian]

Yes. The clash is inevitable. Without getting into the theology (which I will gladly do) just look at the history of the Muslim faith and look at modern examples of this clash. When a Muslim is converted to Christianity, why is he hunted down by secret police, tortured, and almost forced to renounce his faith? This happened to someone I know from Eygpt (and I know it especially happens in other ME countries). Why did the Prophet Muhammad have such a hatred toward Jews and Chritians even during his lifetime (after his first year in Medina)? Abraham of the Old Testament had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael is the father of the Arabs, and Isaac is the father of the Jews. Two separate paths were taken, and now these two faiths are the most rivaled faiths in the world. I'll be happy to give you any information about Chritianity that I can give you, just ask.

God Bless.

Why it's easier for Muslims to convert to other religion in Indonesia and Turkey? So not all Muslim countries did that (hunted down by secret police etc). Furhtermore I think the Islamists are more discriminated than the apostates.

[snakelegs]

Snake Legs I would say that depended on the teachings of the respective religions.

Snake Legs, I hope I am not getting to personal here, I have read a number of your posts and you seem like a pretty sensible person.

I hope you don’t see this question as me trying to promote my faith over Islam or that I am trying to imply that a sensible person can’t or wouldn’t favor Islam.

Do you mind telling me what you find more comfortable about Islam than Christianity?

Thanks
Nimrod

no problem. i like monotheism for philosophical reasons.

[north_malaysian]

no problem. i like monotheism for philosophical reasons.

Huhhh:?

[snakelegs]

I do believe that Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Satanists can live together as long as they dont interfere in other part's religious affairs.

this is my hope but it seems that religion itself is divisive. aside from that, can you really say that a proselytizing religion is not committed to interfering in others' religious affairs? aren't they both obliged to do this?

[cool_jannah]

:sl:

Islam was brought down as a last warner/guidance for the Christians and the Jews to bring them back to the straight path. Although some of the laws were new but the jist of the message that was conveyed to them was the same as previous revelations. All revelations from God required the humans to submitt themselves to Allah.

Co-existence of Christians and Muslims does not mean that you agree with the laws and commandments of either ideology. From an Islamic prespective, we should not or rather we are not allowed to compramize our Eeman to appease the people around you. The people of the book were provided with the true knowledge from their Lord, to which if they had been steadfast to would have lead them to accept the final Prophet (pbuh) to them.

If there was no more revelation after Christianity, this world would have been full of kufr and shirk. The purpose of everything that exists around us would have been nullified and thus destroyed. Thus in order to bring back people to At-Tauheed or Onness of Allah, Islam was sent down. A beautiful religion and a blessing for all mankind, only if the Non-Muslims understood.

"Say : 'O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you : That we worship none but Allah ; that we associate no partners with Him ; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye : 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)." (46)

[snakelegs]

Huhhh:?

not really sure if i can explain this. i just like the idea of oneness - it makes sense to me but i'm not sure why. i don't think god would need siblings or children or assistance of any kind. that doesn't make any sense to me.

[snakelegs]

:sl:
Co-existence of Christians and Muslims does not mean that you agree with the laws and commandments of either ideology. From an Islamic prespective, we should not or rather we are not allowed to compramize our Eeman to appease the people around you.

yes, you do not have to agree in order to co-exist or to compromise your iman. but muslims and christians are competing for souls, since they both require their believers to do dawa.

[glo]

a little background. i have never belonged to any religion. i know a little about islam, less about christianity. i find islam more comfortable (not sure what word to use) than christianity.
islam and christianity are both proselytizing religions, so in this sense they are competitors.
question is, can the 2 religions co-exist or is a clash inevitable?

It depend how you define co-existing and clashing, I suppose.

My personal view on proselytising is that people are not prompted to choose ar change their faith by other people - it is done by a higher power, an inner truth, which -to that person - then becomes undeniable!
Thereby proselytising (I am copying and pasting that word!!) is reduced to 'telling people about your faith', rather than 'trying to convince people of your faith'.

As for the co-existing, yes I believe religions can co-exist. I see it in my own community, or indeed in this cyber-community here.

But that cannot deny that in our heart of hearts we believe the other to be wrong. Most Christians and Muslims believe the other group to be doomed to God's punishment.

It begs the question, whether we are friends despite thinking that, or because of it (i.e. feeling pity for the other).
It also begs the question, whether we are friends just for the sake of being friends, or whether deep down we are still hoping to convert the other?

Soul-searching time! :)

I hope this ramble makes any sense at all, and I haven't gone off topic.
I should be banned from posting incoherent posts before 7 a.m.!:rollseyes

Enjoy your day!:)

[Nicola]

My personal view on proselytising is that people are not prompted to choose ar change their faith by other people - it is done by a higher power, an inner truth, which -to that person - then becomes undeniable!

Exactly Glo... only God can make us born again...no man could possible do that.

[Nicola]

At the moment we are all co-existing sort of ...but a clash is inevitable between Europe and the ME.. God tells us so all through the Bible.

[IceQueen~]

Why did the Prophet Muhammad have such a hatred toward Jews and Chritians even during his lifetime (after his first year in Medina)?
God Bless.

.

i disagree-rather, why did the jews and christians have such hatred of the prophet? because they knew what he brought was the undeniable truth?

[------]

Interesting Marge1 :p

[HeiGou]

i disagree-rather, why did the jews and christians have such hatred of the prophet? because they knew what he brought was the undeniable truth?

Really? Would you say that their behavior was similar to that you would expect from people who did not think that he brought the undeniable truth? How would someone who thought that what he had to say was blasphemy act?

And in passing, I believe the male Jews of the Banu Nadir (I think?) all died except one who converted to Islam. The rest, presumably, could have saved their lives if they converted as well, but only one did. Do you think this is the behavior of people who knew Muhammed brought an undeniable truth?

I think that you ought to stop infantalizing Jewish and Christian beliefs. They do not believe in Judaism and Christianity because they are stupid, ignorant or malicious. They will not believe if you simply repeat the same message over and over again but louder. They may be wrong, but they believe what they believe for what they believe are good reasons - not unlike you.

[IceQueen~]

Really? Would you say that their behavior was similar to that you would expect from people who did not think that he brought the undeniable truth? How would someone who thought that what he had to say was blasphemy act?

And in passing, I believe the male Jews of the Banu Nadir (I think?) all died except one who converted to Islam. The rest, presumably, could have saved their lives if they converted as well, but only one did. Do you think this is the behavior of people who knew Muhammed brought an undeniable truth?

I think that you ought to stop infantalizing Jewish and Christian beliefs. They do not believe in Judaism and Christianity because they are stupid, ignorant or malicious. They will not believe if you simply repeat the same message over and over again but louder. They may be wrong, but they believe what they believe for what they believe are good reasons - not unlike you.

i don't know what ur on about heigou-but i was just replying to what someone else said...:?

[*LJ*]

But that cannot deny that in our heart of hearts we believe the other to be wrong. Most Christians and Muslims believe the other group to be doomed to God's punishment.

This is very true I think. I wouldn't call it a 'competition'. It is more trying to let people know of our faith and inshaAllah (God wiling) showing them that it is the truth. As Muslims, by doing, this we are pleasing Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) and doing something beneficial for other people.

It begs the question, whether we are friends despite thinking that, or because of it (i.e. feeling pity for the other).
It also begs the question, whether we are friends just for the sake of being friends, or whether deep down we are still hoping to convert the other?

On this matter, I don't think you can make friends with people from other faiths JUST to convert them. The fact is that we enjoy being with them and get along, otherwise we would not be friends at all and would just be arguing all the time.
We care about our friends and want what is best for them which is why I think that deep down we would love for them to convert but we wouldn't force our religion on them so as to break that friendship because what would be the point in that? That would deter them away from the religion as we would be showing an awful view of the religion and causing rifts between religions which is stupid and would not be pleasing Allah (swt).

As Allah(swt) says in the Qur'an:

There is no compulsion in religion [2:256]

Obviously this is my opinion. What do other people think?

[glo]

On this matter, I don't think you can make friends with people from other faiths JUST to convert them. The fact is that we enjoy being with them and get along, otherwise we would not be friends at all and would just be arguing all the time.
We care about our friends and want what is best for them which is why I think that deep down we would love for them to convert but we wouldn't force our religion on them so as to break that friendship because what would be the point in that? That would deter them away from the religion as we would be showing an awful view of the religion and causing rifts between religions which is stupid and would not be pleasing Allah (swt).
Obviously this is my opinion. What do other people think?

I agree!
What do others think?

[IceQueen~]

I agree!
What do others think?

yeah-i agree too masha allah.

[...]

I agree!
What do others think?

I definitely agree!:thumbs_up

[glo]

Exactly Glo... only God can make us born again...no man could possible do that.

Hi Nicola! :)

I know somebody who is always highly suspicious of Christians. In his words ' they are so *** nice, they must be after something!'
What he fails to understand is just that - we are not trying to convert people, only God can do that!

Blessings.

[- Qatada -]

not really sure if i can explain this. i just like the idea of oneness - it makes sense to me but i'm not sure why. i don't think god would need siblings or children or assistance of any kind. that doesn't make any sense to me.

Hey.


That's really surprising, because we as muslims believe that it is in the fitrah of man to believe in One God (monotheism) and even if you were to ask an innocent child, does God have children, the child would most likely say no.


Since Almighty God made all human beings swear to His Unique Divinity and Lordship when He created Adam (see Holy Qur'an 7:172), this oath is printed on the human soul even before it enters the mother's fetus. So when a child is born, it has with it a natural belief in God. This natural belief is called in Arabic the "fitrah". If a child were left alone, it would grow up aware of Almighty God in His Unity, but all children are affected by the pressures of their environment. The Prophet Muhammad - the Final Messenger of God, may God bless him and give him peace, reported that God the Exalted said: "I created My servants in the right religion, but the devils made them go astray." (Reported in Sahih Muslim.) The Messenger of God, may God bless him and give him peace, also said: "Each child is born in a state of fitrah, but his parents make him a Jew or a Christian." (Reported in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim).


Continued...



Peace.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

We can have differences without having to clash. Islam teaches us to be respectful of others and gentle in calling them to Islam. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)

As for those who have the misconcepton that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh promoted intolerance and violence, please see the following links which debunk such myths:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...sub_cat_id=643
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=497
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted

[kilobravo]

not really sure if i can explain this. i just like the idea of oneness - it makes sense to me but i'm not sure why. i don't think god would need siblings or children or assistance of any kind. that doesn't make any sense to me.

The thing is that God doesn't need siblings, children, or assistance. He accepts us into His family because of His love for mankind. You know this one: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not persish but have everlasing life."

[IbnAbdulHakim]

a little background. i have never belonged to any religion. i know a little about islam, less about christianity. i find islam more comfortable (not sure what word to use) than christianity.
islam and christianity are both proselytizing religions, so in this sense they are competitors.
question is, can the 2 religions co-exist or is a clash inevitable?

:peace:

We can live peacefully with each other without biting each others heads off if thats what you mean but we can never accept to follow each others ways :).

:peace:

[- Qatada -]

God loves His creation, and the ones who truely believe that their is none worthy of worship except God and die on that belief - they are promised paradise.

That's all God expects of us, we as humans should do our best to enjoin this belief, and this is the reason why God sends messengers to mankind.

[kilobravo]

:peace:

Location: Where i live doesnt matter, where i will go when i die is the worrying thing *gulp*

:peace:

In Islam, are there no assurances of where you will go after you die (except in the case of dying for Allah)? Just curious.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

In Islam, are there no assurances of where you will go after you die (except in the case of dying for Allah)? Just curious.

:peace:
nope, u can only do good and hope 4 the best, Allah knows what will happen and no1 else :)
:peace:

[kilobravo]

:peace:
nope, u can only do good and hope 4 the best, Allah knows what will happen and no1 else :)
:peace:

So, while you're on earth, if you're working to do everything you can for Allah by obeying his words (and even if you could do everything "good" possible) you still could be eternally separated from God? Does it seem like your life's work is pointless sometimes? What daily motivates you to live as a Muslim?

[- Qatada -]

So, while you're on earth, if you're working to do everything you can for Allah by obeying his words (and even if you could do everything "good" possible) you still could be eternally separated from God? Does it seem like your life's work is pointless sometimes? What daily motivates you to live as a Muslim?

Thats the point of our life as muslims. Unlike the jews and christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt, we as muslims have to keep striving and working hard in this life to please our Lord Allaah Almighty. this constant struggle (which is called jihad al nafs - struggle of the desires) is part of our test in this life, and the more stronger you build up in faith, the more likely you will die as a muslim.


We do know that the muslims who believe that no-one is worthy of worship except God will end up in paradise, but how do we know we going to actually die in that state? What if we die as a person who rejects faith? This is the reason we have to keep firm with the submission of God, by following His commandments in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and if we stick to this, we will be successful, whereas if we drift away from it - we could end up as disbelievers, due to the fact that we disobeyed the commandments of God.


Hope you understand what i mean, and if you got any questions - please don't be afraid to ask. :)


Peace.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So, while you're on earth, if you're working to do everything you can for Allah by obeying his words (and even if you could do everything "good" possible) you still could be eternally separated from God? Does it seem like your life's work is pointless sometimes? What daily motivates you to live as a Muslim?

:peace:

If we were guaranteed jannah we wud be too lazy to obey Allah n jus hav fun, if we were guaranteed hell we wud b too depressed to obey Allah n jus try enjoy wats left of the dunya. To not kno keeps us goin, the hope of one day achieving that which is impossible. Can you climb the top of a mountain wivout struggling and training and going all out? no u hav to have sheer commitment, our mountain is jannah and we'll strive 4 that all the way!!!!

:peace:

[snakelegs]

thanks for all your comments.
when your religions say they are The Truth, doesn't that automatically mean that other beliefs are untrue?
another thing i've often wondered about is why do you need to belong to a religion to believe in god and have a relationship with him? what is the purpose of a religion?

[snakelegs]

The thing is that God doesn't need siblings, children, or assistance. He accepts us into His family because of His love for mankind. You know this one: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not persish but have everlasing life."

i've heard this but it makes no sense to me.

[Paul Williams]

I agree too. I have friends who are practicing Christians and practicing Muslims, and I admire the devotion and piety of each. Which makes my spiritual indiscision a little confusing!

Pax

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

another thing i've often wondered about is why do you need to belong to a religion to believe in god and have a relationship with him? what is the purpose of a religion?

The logical consequence of belief in God is submission to Him. This is what Islam means. Islam is not just 'another religion' it is a complete way of life containing a message that has been preached by every Prophet - worship One God and do good deeds so as to come near to Him. So it is not just a matter of 'belonging to a religion' the issue is accepting the way of life and the moral conduct which God has ordained for us. Once we recognize (in accordance with our natural human disposition) the One Creator and Sustainer of our universe, then we submit to His way and accept the message that He has revealed to us because it tells us how we can come closer to Him. How can you have a relationship with God if you know nothing of Him nor of what He wants from you? The purpose of God's revelation is to instruct human beings on how to live their life and come closer to God, worshipping Him in the most perfect manner that is most pleasing to Him.

Regards

[Paul Williams]

Thats the point of our life as muslims. Unlike the jews and christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt, we as muslims have to keep striving and working hard in this life to please our Lord Allaah Almighty. this constant struggle (which is called jihad al nafs - struggle of the desires) is part of our test in this life, and the more stronger you build up in faith, the more likely you will die as a muslim.


We do know that the muslims who believe that no-one is worthy of worship except God will end up in paradise, but how do we know we going to actually die in that state? What if we die as a person who rejects faith? This is the reason we have to keep firm with the submission of God, by following His commandments in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and if we stick to this, we will be successful, whereas if we drift away from it - we could end up as disbelievers, due to the fact that we disobeyed the commandments of God.


Hope you understand what i mean, and if you got any questions - please don't be afraid to ask. :)


Peace.

re Unlike the jews and christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt

May I disagree here? To my knowledge Catholic Christians (the world's largest grouping) do not believe in guarenteed salvation. They think they are saved by faith and good works. Evangelicals on the other hand mostly do believe that "once saved, always saved" relying on various verses in the bible to back up their claim. But I don't believe Jesus taught that!
:)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

when your religions say they are The Truth, doesn't that automatically mean that other beliefs are untrue?

Yes. The truth is one. But that doesn't mean we are to disrespect or abuse others; instead, our kindness and gentle advise will aid others in recognizing the truth.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So, while you're on earth, if you're working to do everything you can for Allah by obeying his words (and even if you could do everything "good" possible) you still could be eternally separated from God? Does it seem like your life's work is pointless sometimes?

No of course not; it is our righteous deeds which draw us closer to God, and God has promised to reward the righteous.

39:20 But for those who are concious of their Lord, for them will be lofty mansions, built one above another: beneath them flow rivers (of delight): (such is) the Promise of Allah. Never does Allah fail in (His) promise.

Some Christians have the misconception that salvation in Islam is just a currency of good and bad deeds, which is not true. Ultimately, it is God's Mercy that allows one to enter paradise. The good deeds are the means by which we come closer to God and attain His Mercy.

Regards

[- Qatada -]

re Unlike the jews and christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt

May I disagree here? To my knowledge Catholic Christians (the world's largest grouping) do not believe in guarenteed salvation. They think they are saved by faith and good works. Evangelicals on the other hand mostly do believe that "once saved, always saved" relying on various verses in the bible to back up their claim. But I don't believe Jesus taught that!
:)

Hey.


That's exactly what us muslims believe, we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is also a Messenger of God, like the previous prophets. He came to bring the message of worshipping God alone without any associates;


[Qur'an 19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!

[19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.

[19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.

[19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.

[19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

[19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.

[19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.

[19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.


And also:


"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Ressurection):

‘O ‘Issa, son of Marium! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’’

He (‘Issa) will say: ‘Glory is to You (Alone)! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You surely, have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and (unseen).’

‘Never did I say to them except what You (Allah) commanded me to say: ‘Worship Allah, My Lord and Your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things.’

‘If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.’

Allah will say: ‘This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: Theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) – they shall abide therein forever.’ Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things."


Al-Ma’idah (5:116-120)


The Truth about Jesus (Part One): The Muslim Nation is More Worthy of Jesus Than All Others
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=547


Peace.

[glo]

I agree too. I have friends who are practicing Christians and practicing Muslims, and I admire the devotion and piety of each. Which makes my spiritual indiscision a little confusing!

Pax

What does your heart say?
God says that if you seek him you will find him.

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Yep, glo is sooo right

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.

It was related by al-Bukhari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).

Then do ye remember Me; I (Allaah) will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith. (Qur'an 2:152)



Peace. :)

[Paul Williams]

My heart? It says God exists and cares for me, though its important i follow his way. But my head is confused. I've read the Qur'an and the NT...But I'm only a finite, limted human being - how on earth can i come to a certain conclusion about an issue that has divided countless people since the 7th century?

[glo]

Hey.

That's exactly what us muslims believe, we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is also a Messenger of God, like the previous prophets. He came to bring the message of worshipping God alone without any associates;

I don't usually copy and paste, but it is too late in the evening to start writing a long post. :X

Here it goes, some explanation on the Christian view of salvation through faith/ good works (The have sentences in bold are highlighted by me, for emphasis, because to me they demonstrate the Christian thinking very clearly):

Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"


Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?


The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).


Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their life is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.

Here is the source I took this from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Blessings. :)

[Paul Williams]

I don't want to start a big debate on Christian theology and the Bible (life being too short!) - I just want to say that i have a different understanding of Paul and James. Reading Acts 21 I see that James (the head of the Jerusalem church) was very much a follower of the Law - see especially vv20 onwards. Paul on the other expressed some very strong views about the laws redundancy see Galatians 3:25. So I would read the debate about justification be faith/weorks diferently. Paul and James disagree profoundly about the continuing role of the law in a Christian's life. Indeed I would go so far as to say that James was a proto-muslim in many respects.

[glo]

My heart? It says God exists and cares for me, ...

That's a good start, don't you think?
And believe me, God knows your heart, so you are in a good place! :)

Your words remind me of the story of Elijah, when he fled from Jezebel and hid in a cave. He prayed to God for help ...

The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD , for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD , but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
(Kings 19: 11-13)

Be patient! You may just find God where you least expect him. :)

Peace.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Paul

My heart? It says God exists and cares for me,

That is the point I started from when I was about fifty, and a friend said if you believe there is a God you have to do something.

He did not say what I had to do, but if God exists he has to be the greatest thing in this univiverse.

in the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[glo]

I don't want to start a big debate on Christian theology and the Bible (life being too short!) - I just want to say that i have a different understanding of Paul and James. Reading Acts 21 I see that James (the head of the Jerusalem church) was very much a follower of the Law - see especially vv20 onwards. Paul on the other expressed some very strong views about the laws redundancy see Galatians 3:25. So I would read the debate about justification be faith/weorks diferently. Paul and James disagree profoundly about the continuing role of the law in a Christian's life. Indeed I would go so far as to say that James was a proto-muslim in many respects.

If Paul and James offer different perspectives, which one do you favour yourself?
You are right, perhaps this is the topic for another thread ...?) :rollseyes

[Paul Williams]

If Paul and James offer different perspectives, which one do you favour yourself?
You are right, perhaps this is the topic for another thread ...?) :rollseyes

For me, I am very interested in the earliest Christian movement (after Jesus ascended to Heaven but before Paul comes on the scene). I'm moving in the direction of the view that says Jesus did not teach Justification by Faith...

I love the story of The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke chapter 18:

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

I think that teaching says so much about Jesus. I am not sure Paul would have approved of the implications of this parable.

If one reads the story of Zacchaeus the tax collector in Luke 19 (a wonderful story!) Jesus says to him that 'Today salvation has come to his house' because Zacchaeus gives half of his possesions to the poor. Again, very unPauline!

What do you think?

Paul:)

[*Hana*]

For me, I am very interested in the earliest Christian movement (after Jesus ascended to Heaven but before Paul comes on the scene). I'm moving in the direction of the view that says Jesus did not teach Justification by Faith...

....If one reads the story of Zacchaeus the tax collector in Luke 19 (a wonderful story!) Jesus says to him that 'Today salvation has come to his house' because Zacchaeus gives half of his possesions to the poor. Again, very unPauline!

What do you think?

Paul:)

Peace Paul:

Yes, Paul, I agree with 100%! The teachings of Jesus, pbuh, and His disciples were quite different from Pauline doctrine.

I was just skimming through this thread actually, but noticed you mentioning your confusion. I had the same feeling when I was a Christian and searching for the truth. It's tough. But, you know, I started in about the same place you are now....early Christianity. In time I was able to clear my head of what I had been taught and read and studied with an open mind. I questioned EVERYTHING in both Christianity and Islam. Through common sense and logic I moved closer towards Islam. God says in the bible He is not the author of confusion....yet the more I studied the more I was confused. For me, the thought that my salvation was based on my acceptance of the trinity was more than scarey. My salvation was based on something that no one has ever been able to explain. :? Seems a little unfair, and as we all know, God is the most just.

I didn't just read the Qur'an and embrace Islam either. I would read, argue, search, ask questions....just as I did with the Bible. The difference for me was the logic found in the Qur'an. Because I don't read Arabic it was necessary for me to read the translations and meanings of the Holy Qur'an in english, which also meant it was necessary to ask for clarification of surahs from native arab speakers. I would ask 5 or 6 people....not just one.

After 3 years of this, for me, I could no longer deny the truth of Islam, Alhamdulillah. We all have to search in a way that is best for us as individuals. For me, it was the use of logic. (I'm a stickler for things being logical lol). In the end, Allah, swt, guides who He wills. But, for sure guidance won't just fall in your lap. :) Waiting for the right moment won't work. He will guide, but it's up to you to follow. You've been guided here so far, but it's your choice to follow and continue your search.

May Allah, swt, continue to guide you and bring you closer to the truth. Ameen

Peace,
Hana

[Paul Williams]

thank you for your kind words....

Paul:)

[snakelegs]

Hey.
That's really surprising, because we as muslims believe that it is in the fitrah of man to believe in One God (monotheism) and even if you were to ask an innocent child, does God have children, the child would most likely say no.
Continued...
Peace.

actually as a child i didn't either believe in god or not believe in god.

[snakelegs]

What does your heart say?
God says that if you seek him you will find him.

Peace.

if both muslims and christians had this attitude, there wouldn't need to be any conflict between them.
consensus here does seem to be that there is no reason why the 2 religions have to clash with each other as long as you can both respect the other path. but again, how can you respect it if you feel a need to change the other person?

[snakelegs]

:peace:

We can live peacefully with each other without biting each others heads off if thats what you mean but we can never accept to follow each others ways :).

:peace:

makes sense to me as long as one didn't try to dominate each other - there is no need to agree in order to live together peacefully.

[*Hana*]

if both muslims and christians had this attitude, there wouldn't need to be any conflict between them.
consensus here does seem to be that there is no reason why the 2 religions have to clash with each other as long as you can both respect the other path. but again, how can you respect it if you feel a need to change the other person?

Peace snakelegs:

I can only speak for me, but I never feel the need to change another person. It is my duty to invite others to Islam, but I know it is only Allah, swt, that will guide. So, I never become angry (as long as the other person isn't bashing my faith....I don't like that and will usually end the conversation). In the end, I guess it's all a matter of personal choices. There are good and bad everywhere and although there are many that don't share my religious beliefs, it doesn't make them bad people and vice versa.

But, unfortunately, many of us do judge the other based on religion, colour or nationality, etc., I don't think this can ever be prevented and we can only be responsible for how we, as individuals, behave towards others.

Peace,
Hana

[snakelegs]

The logical consequence of belief in God is submission to Him. This is what Islam means. Islam is not just 'another religion' it is a complete way of life containing a message that has been preached by every Prophet - worship One God and do good deeds so as to come near to Him. So it is not just a matter of 'belonging to a religion' the issue is accepting the way of life and the moral conduct which God has ordained for us. Once we recognize (in accordance with our natural human disposition) the One Creator and Sustainer of our universe, then we submit to His way and accept the message that He has revealed to us because it tells us how we can come closer to Him. How can you have a relationship with God if you know nothing of Him nor of what He wants from you? The purpose of God's revelation is to instruct human beings on how to live their life and come closer to God, worshipping Him in the most perfect manner that is most pleasing to Him.

Regards

i understand that this is the position of islam. makes sense from your standpoint.

[Goku]

At the moment we are all co-existing sort of ...but a clash is inevitable between Europe and the ME.. God tells us so all through the Bible.

Where? Can you quote the passages please.

[snakelegs]

Peace snakelegs:

But, unfortunately, many of us do judge the other based on religion, colour or nationality, etc., I don't think this can ever be prevented and we can only be responsible for how we, as individuals, behave towards others.

Peace,
Hana

i agree. we should honour each other's differences and respect them even tho we disagree.

[snakelegs]

as an agnostic, my position is that i don't know.
but there are times that i definitely feel a connection to god - for example when i behold the beauty in nature or hear beautiful music.
i doubt that i would ever want to join any religion. but i don't think that any religion is wrong and unworthy of respect.
i do have some problems with the proselytizing aspects of both of these religons. but i see that if most people felt like the majority here do, there would need be no problems between the 2.
still, i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment? (as far as i know, muslims don't practice this annoying custom).

[*Hana*]

still, i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment? (as far as i know, muslims don't practice this annoying custom).

I would serve them tea on the patio and lock myself inside. :giggling:

[snakelegs]

I would serve them tea on the patio and lock myself inside. :giggling:

;D :giggling: ;D :giggling: ;D ;D
what a great answer!

[arabianprincess]

interesting conversation!!! ppl

[glo]

For me, I am very interested in the earliest Christian movement (after Jesus ascended to Heaven but before Paul comes on the scene). I'm moving in the direction of the view that says Jesus did not teach Justification by Faith...

I love the story of The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke chapter 18:

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

I think that teaching says so much about Jesus. I am not sure Paul would have approved of the implications of this parable.

If one reads the story of Zacchaeus the tax collector in Luke 19 (a wonderful story!) Jesus says to him that 'Today salvation has come to his house' because Zacchaeus gives half of his possesions to the poor. Again, very unPauline!

What do you think?

Paul:)

Interesting post, Paul. I will have to ponder a while before I reply.

Not so long ago I really wanted to get a Bible which highlights Jesus' sayings ... but didn't really feel I could afford to buy a new one. So I took my little NT and started to highlight Jesus' words in the gospels with highlighter pen! :giggling:
I am not through yet, but he said a lot of stuff! :)

One of Jesus' own words that spring to mind is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)
Or "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
(John 10:7-9)
What is your take on that in the faith vs deeds debate? Is Jesus not saying here that you need to believe in him to be saved?

(Clearly, he also had strong words, and many, on the topic of good deeds ... but that's another conversation ... :statisfie )

Talk to you later?

Blessings.

[glo]

consensus here does seem to be that there is no reason why the 2 religions have to clash with each other as long as you can both respect the other path. but again, how can you respect it if you feel a need to change the other person?

I don't think we should feel the need to change other people.
I say that, knowing that it is difficult to do. After all, if you believe that you have found the truth, and all those people around you fail to see it ... that can be frustrating.

But if you truly believe that God will reveal himself to people, then you have no right to interfere with that process.
By all means, tell people about your faith, but don't force it on them ... and be sensitive! When they have made you a cup of the tea on the patio, and locked the door behind them, it may be a sign, that they are not ready to hear any more! :giggling:

By the end of the day, as I think Eric said somewhere in this thread, none of us know 100% that we are right - we just believe it! .
When I die, and my belief was right, I will be right with God; if it was not right I may be in trouble; if the atheists are right, my brain will go 'ping' and the lights will go out ... :X

Peace.:)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

thanks for all your comments.
when your religions say they are The Truth, doesn't that automatically mean that other beliefs are untrue?
another thing i've often wondered about is why do you need to belong to a religion to believe in god and have a relationship with him? what is the purpose of a religion?

:peace:
To fulfil your duty to the one who created you. That is the main reason islam is both accepted and followed. Also to avoid that scary pit known aswell which runs 70 yrs deep! There is only one creator, who created the way every creature moves/acts, analyse the ant and just attempt to explain its amazing ways. Analyse the universe and try to explain the way an atom came to be, something we cant even see. Chance is a possibility wiped out, infinite possibilities is just a lame excuse becoz we hav NO IDEA what there was before the universe so how do we kno there were other universes? I believe Islam is THE MOST logical and proven religion to date!
Main Reasons:

* its so Just (teaches a way of life), its just amazing
* Not one side of muhammad saws can you find a flaw in
* Not one controdiction when looking at context of the quran will u find!
* Too many scientific facts in the quran which hav been proven!
* It touches your heart in a miraculous way and causes u to shed tears!

:peace:

[Trumble]

May I disagree here? To my knowledge Catholic Christians (the world's largest grouping) do not believe in guarenteed salvation. They think they are saved by faith and good works.

That's true of most Christians, not just Catholics. The general get-out is that, whatever you may have done, if you sincerely repent and accept Jesus then your sins will be forgiven.

I think that belief is required just as in Islam. That is one reason I could accept neither Islam or Christianity even though I have little problem with the idea of a God per se... I think that the idea that a God of infinite goodness either requires such belief, or indeed has any need to be worshipped, makes no sense at all. In Buddhism no such problems exists... what happens depends on your own effort, and there is no outside source to provide instant forgiveness. The only way to make up for previous bad deeds and thoughts is doing good deeds and having good thoughts.

[Paul Williams]

Interesting post, Paul. I will have to ponder a while before I reply.

One of Jesus' own words that spring to mind is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)
Or "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
(John 10:7-9)
What is your take on that in the faith vs deeds debate? Is Jesus not saying here that you need to believe in him to be saved?

(Clearly, he also had strong words, and many, on the topic of good deeds ... but that's another conversation ... :statisfie )

Talk to you later?

Blessings.

I look forward to your reply to the parables I quoted from Luke's gospel!

I'm not sure the passages in John you quote are directly relevant to Jesus' teaching about justification. Also I have heard that most biblical scholars do not regard the sayings of Jesus in the 4th gospel as verbatim reports, but more like the reflections and meditations of John many decades after the event.

Pax

Paul

[Paul Williams]

I think that belief is required just as in Islam. That is one reason I could accept neither Islam or Christianity even though I have little problem with the idea of a God per se... I think that the idea that a God of infinite goodness either requires such belief, or indeed has any need to be worshipped, makes no sense at all. In Buddhism no such problems exists... what happens depends on your own effort, and there is no outside source to provide instant forgiveness. The only way to make up for previous bad deeds and thoughts is doing good deeds and having good thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Salaam to you :)

I'm sure you have been asked this question before, but do you no see evidence of an intelligent Mind behind the universe? What I mean is physics and micro biology have revealed a universe of astonishing complexity and intricacy and beauty, where the so much is so finely tuned for life, doesn't it suggest a Creator to you?

Paul :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

none of us know 100% that we are right - we just believe it! .
When I die, and my belief was right, I will be right with God

:sl:
lol i 100% believe im right, and it can be seen :), faith is required to be right nex 2 Allah.
:w:

[Joe98]

….do you no see evidence of an intelligent Mind behind the universe...physics and micro biology have revealed a universe of astonishing complexity and intricacy…….doesn't it suggest a Creator to you?

None.

This would be the same Creator who:

Created pestilence to kill millions of people over the last 5,000 years.

Created storms and bad weather to kill millions more.

Allowed man to wage war and kill millions in history, and 20 million more in World War 1 and 50 million more in World War 2

More recently, killed 30,000 Muslins in an earthquake in Iran 3 years ago
Killed 250,000 people, mostly Muslims, in Tsunami in December 2004
Killed 80,000 people, mostly Muslims in Pakistan a few months ago

I don’t worship and God because there isn’t one.

Logically there could not be a God.

-

[Joe98]

….as Muslims., unlike the Jews and Christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt,

You are mistaken, Christians believe as follows. On judgement day you will stand before God.

You will be sent to paradise or to hell. Mostly good people go to paradise and bad people go to hell.

But it is by the grace of God. This means that bad people might be forgiven and sent to paradise and some good people might be sent to hell.

Christians believe that you cannot presume to know the will of God and that God might send you anywhere.

-

[north_malaysian]

i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment?

I will invite them inside for a discussion?

(as far as i know, Muslims dont practice this annoying custom).

The Tablighis do so, but only to Muslim houses. They're not so annoying too.

[north_malaysian]

But it is by the grace of God.

That's so Islamic.:rollseyes

[Dhulqarnaeen]

What should I call you snake? So uncomfortable to call you snake cause Islam never teach us to call someone with something thats not sounds nice and have a bad meaning . The teaching in Islam is so high and cant be matched by another religion. Cause Islam revealed for the humankind, forbid eachother to do sins, guilts and violence and tells eachother to do good things that can bring us to the peacefull happily life.If you feel Islam more comfortable, then everyone also have this feeling in their heart. Cause everyone have this fitroh (the basic purely natural genuine standard inscticnt that Allah give us into our heart) in each of them.Just like when you feel so so sad, heavy and when youre facing a lot of problems, then your fitroh will told to raise your face up to the sky, why? Cause there where our God position. He said in Quran His place is on the sky, so so high above the seventh sky and He is istiwa' fis sama'.Thats why when our heart feel heavy and sad, then our hearts will bring our face to look above just like we are trying to tell Him what we feel. And also when the animals feels thirsty cause there are no rainfall, they will also look above as if theyre begging so God with give them rain, its some of the signs that our God position is on the sky and this is what our prophet Muhammad -peace be upon Him- told in one hadits. Once he ever asked one little female slave, "where is Allah?" Then the slave told Him that Allah fis samaa'(on the sky), then the prophet told his friend (Utsman bin Maz'un ra), "free this girl cause shes muslimah". So my friend, this is your fitroh to choose Islam cause basically youre muslim since you have been bornth into this world. Rasulullah Muhammad said "All babies bornth as muslim, then their parents turn them into christian, jews and majusy". But the fitroh is in you my friend, and I hope its hidayah from Allah so you can hold Islam strongly in the future. And its also because Islams teaching is fit to every people on this world, Islam is the only teaching which make sense, and so easy to understand with our intelegency,Allah says in Quran :" Ta-Ha, We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed, But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high. (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).(QS. Ta Ha 1-5). And no religion can match the teaching and the miracle of the Qur'an and nothing can make something as glorious as Quran, Allah says:"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true."(Al Baqoroh 23).And if you try comparing the Quran with bible, then the bible is a long way behind. You will find a lot of contradictions in bible that no prieches in every churchs on this world can explain and make us satisfied, but you wont find something like these contradictions in Quran.And about your question, can Islam and Christian co-exist? Then we should say that its our destiny to accept that. If the question is "can we"? Then Islam says in Quran and sunnah, we cant. Cause Allah says He only accept Islam as the right religion, and Allah must be worshipped and we may not have another God to be worshipped, Quran said:"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al Ikhlas, 1-4). So beside Islam then they will go forever to hell. But Now, since its our destiny that not every people on this earth open their heart to Islam, and we have to life side by side with the christian and other religions, then our prophet teach us to life peacefully with them as long they dont attacking, disturbing muslims. And in Muslims country, Christian and other religion ahlulkitab MAY NOT be not disturbed. Cause theyre under the agreement with the government, and our prophet Muhammad -shalallahu alaihi wasallam- said "whoever kill ahlul kitab(christian and jews) that have agreements with the government, then they will not enter the heaven". So the christian can life peacefully with muslim as long they respect eachother. And if they life in muslims country then their wealth, their blood, their family should be protected by the citizen and the government and may not be disturbed. This is the beauty of Islam, which have a high morality to humankind and bringing the human to only worship Allah cause He is the only God and He is the only one who deserved to be worshipped. Allahu A'lam bisshowab

[snakelegs]

What should I call you snake? So uncomfortable to call you snake cause Islam never teach us to call someone with something thats not sounds nice and have a bad meaning . The teaching in Islam is so high and cant be matched by another religion. Cause Islam revealed for the humankind, forbid eachother to do sins, guilts and violence and tells eachother to do good things that can bring us to the peacefull happily life.If you feel Islam more comfortable, then everyone also have this feeling in their heart. Cause everyone have this fitroh (the basic purely natural genuine standard inscticnt that Allah give us into our heart) in each of them.Just like when you feel so so sad, heavy and when youre facing a lot of problems, then your fitroh will told to raise your face up to the sky, why? Cause there where our God position. He said in Quran His place is on the sky, so so high above the seventh sky and He is istiwa' fis sama'.Thats why when our heart feel heavy and sad, then our hearts will bring our face to look above just like we are trying to tell Him what we feel. And also when the animals feels thirsty cause there are no rainfall, they will also look above as if theyre begging so God with give them rain, its some of the signs that our God position is on the sky and this is what our prophet Muhammad -peace be upon Him- told in one hadits. Once he ever asked one little female slave, "where is Allah?" Then the slave told Him that Allah fis samaa'(on the sky), then the prophet told his friend (Utsman bin Maz'un ra), "free this girl cause shes muslimah". So my friend, this is your fitroh to choose Islam cause basically youre muslim since you have been bornth into this world. Rasulullah Muhammad said "All babies bornth as muslim, then their parents turn them into christian, jews and majusy". But the fitroh is in you my friend, and I hope its hidayah from Allah so you can hold Islam strongly in the future. And its also because Islams teaching is fit to every people on this world, Islam is the only teaching which make sense, and so easy to understand with our intelegency,Allah says in Quran :" Ta-Ha, We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed, But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high. (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).(QS. Ta Ha 1-5). And no religion can match the teaching and the miracle of the Qur'an and nothing can make something as glorious as Quran, Allah says:"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true."(Al Baqoroh 23).And if you try comparing the Quran with bible, then the bible is a long way behind. You will find a lot of contradictions in bible that no prieches in every churchs on this world can explain and make us satisfied, but you wont find something like these contradictions in Quran.And about your question, can Islam and Christian co-exist? Then we should say that its our destiny to accept that. If the question is "can we"? Then Islam says in Quran and sunnah, we cant. Cause Allah says He only accept Islam as the right religion, and Allah must be worshipped and we may not have another God to be worshipped, Quran said:"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al Ikhlas, 1-4). So beside Islam then they will go forever to hell. But Now, since its our destiny that not every people on this earth open their heart to Islam, and we have to life side by side with the christian and other religions, then our prophet teach us to life peacefully with them as long they dont attacking, disturbing muslims. And in Muslims country, Christian and other religion ahlulkitab MAY NOT be not disturbed. Cause theyre under the agreement with the government, and our prophet Muhammad -shalallahu alaihi wasallam- said "whoever kill ahlul kitab(christian and jews) that have agreements with the government, then they will not enter the heaven". So the christian can life peacefully with muslim as long they respect eachother. And if they life in muslims country then their wealth, their blood, their family should be protected by the citizen and the government and may not be disturbed. This is the beauty of Islam, which have a high morality to humankind and bringing the human to only worship Allah cause He is the only God and He is the only one who deserved to be worshipped. Allahu A'lam bisshowab

thanks for your reply.
so you are saying that even though you are convinced that you are right and they are wrong, it is possible for both to live together in mutual respect.
if only everyone would realize that we can all co-exist in peace even though we may have very strong disagreements!
snake to me is not a bad meaning because i like snakes.

[Muslim Knight]

thanks for your reply.

snake to me is not a bad meaning because i like snakes.

Snakes are creepy.

[Paul Williams]

None.

This would be the same Creator who:

Created pestilence to kill millions of people over the last 5,000 years.

Created storms and bad weather to kill millions more.

Allowed man to wage war and kill millions in history, and 20 million more in World War 1 and 50 million more in World War 2

More recently, killed 30,000 Muslins in an earthquake in Iran 3 years ago
Killed 250,000 people, mostly Muslims, in Tsunami in December 2004
Killed 80,000 people, mostly Muslims in Pakistan a few months ago

I don’t worship and God because there isn’t one.

Logically there could not be a God.

-

Are you really sure? I note that you avoided answering my question about evidence for Mind behind the universe.

What do me make of the fact that the world we live in is only fruitful because it's given basic scientific constitution is of a very special, very finely-tuned character. You can shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's just the way it happens to be. We're here because we're here and that's it'. That doesn't seem to me to be a very rational approach to the issue. Imagine the following story. You are about to be executed. Your eyes are bandaged and you are tied to the stake. Twelve highly-trained sharp shooters have their rifles levelled at your heart. They pull the trigger, the shots ring out - you've survived! What do you do? Do you shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's the way it is. No need to seek and explanation of this. That's just the way it is'. That's surely not a rational response to what's going on. I think that there are only two rational explanations of that amazing incident. One is this. Many, many, many executions are taking place today and just by luck you happen to be the one in which they all miss. That's the rational explanation. The other explanation, is, of course, that the sharp shooters are on your side and they missed by choice. In other words there was a purpose at work of which you were unaware.

You see how that parable translates into thinking about a finely-tuned and fruitful universe. One possibility is that maybe there are lots and lots of different universes, all with different given physical laws and circumstances. If there were lots and lots of them (and there would really have to be rather a lot) then just by chance, in one of them, the laws and circumstances will be such as to permit the development of carbon-based life. But, of course, that's the one in which we live, because we couldn't appear anywhere else. The other possibility that there is more going on than has met the eye and the sharp shooters are on our side. That translates into the idea that this is not just any old universe. Rather it is a universe which is a creation which has been endowed by its Creator with just those finely-tuned given laws and circumstances that will make its history fruitful. It is the fulfilment of a purpose.

In reference to the the evil actions of men, the free-will defence argues that despite the many disastrous choice people have made to go to war etc, a world of freely choosing beings is better than a world of perfectly programmed automata. in relation to physical evil (disease and disaster) there is a parallel 'free-process defence': that in his great act of creation, God allows the whole universe to be itself. Each created thing is allowed to behave in accordance with kits nature, including the due regularities which may be a part of its nature.

God no more expressly wills the growth of a cancer than he expressly wills the act of a murderer, but he allows both to happen. He is not the puppet master of either people or matter.

There is a Hadith which address these issues eschatologicaly which I'll dig out if you are interested. For me it is the best solution to the problem of theodicy I have read anywhere. Let me know if you are interested


pax

Paul :)

[HeiGou]

What do me make of the fact that the world we live in is only fruitful because it's given basic scientific constitution is of a very special, very finely-tuned character. You can shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's just the way it happens to be. We're here because we're here and that's it'. That doesn't seem to me to be a very rational approach to the issue. Imagine the following story. You are about to be executed. Your eyes are bandaged and you are tied to the stake. Twelve highly-trained sharp shooters have their rifles levelled at your heart. They pull the trigger, the shots ring out - you've survived! What do you do? Do you shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's the way it is. No need to seek and explanation of this. That's just the way it is'. That's surely not a rational response to what's going on. I think that there are only two rational explanations of that amazing incident. One is this. Many, many, many executions are taking place today and just by luck you happen to be the one in which they all miss. That's the rational explanation. The other explanation, is, of course, that the sharp shooters are on your side and they missed by choice. In other words there was a purpose at work of which you were unaware.

I could probably think of a few more rational responses, but they are the two main ones people adopt.

The question is how do you distinguish one from the other?

You see how that parable translates into thinking about a finely-tuned and fruitful universe. One possibility is that maybe there are lots and lots of different universes, all with different given physical laws and circumstances. If there were lots and lots of them (and there would really have to be rather a lot) then just by chance, in one of them, the laws and circumstances will be such as to permit the development of carbon-based life. But, of course, that's the one in which we live, because we couldn't appear anywhere else.

This seems a viable option although only one universe may have been created it just so happens that it contains us. Different Universes might have created different forms of life, or not, but they may not have been created.

The other possibility that there is more going on than has met the eye and the sharp shooters are on our side. That translates into the idea that this is not just any old universe. Rather it is a universe which is a creation which has been endowed by its Creator with just those finely-tuned given laws and circumstances that will make its history fruitful. It is the fulfilment of a purpose.

Well there is that possibility. Except you would still have to go from a Creator to your specific Creator. The question is whether there is any reason to think that the shooters are on our side. I suggest there is no reason to prefer this view to the other view and considerable reason to think that God, if He exists, did not leave any traces of His existence in the Universe.

Each created thing is allowed to behave in accordance with kits nature, including the due regularities which may be a part of its nature.

Except that God created each thing with its own nature. How can a tiger be blamed for being a tiger? It does what it does. To take a bizarre example, someone found a case of homosexual necrophilia among mallard ducks (and won an Ignobel prize for it). That is not, surely, sinful among ducks because God created them the way they are and they can do nothing else. The question is whether by creating us as we are and the circumstances in which we find ourselves, do we have meaningful free-will? I would say if you assume an All-Powerful, All-Knowing God who already knows the outcomes of all our actions, obviously not.

God no more expressly wills the growth of a cancer than he expressly wills the act of a murderer, but he allows both to happen. He is not the puppet master of either people or matter.

God manifestly does will the growth of cancer - it is a natural process after all. Perhaps He does not expressly will murder, but He knows it is going to happen and He creates the circumstances that lead up to it.

[quote] There is a Hadith which address these issues eschatologicaly which I'll dig out if you are interested. For me it is the best solution to the problem of theodicy I have read anywhere. Let me know if you are interested [QUOTE]

I don't knoe about Joe but I am.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

PAUL U ROK!! Respect!!

:w:

[- Qatada -]

You are mistaken, Christians believe as follows. On judgement day you will stand before God.

You will be sent to paradise or to hell. Mostly good people go to paradise and bad people go to hell.

But it is by the grace of God. This means that bad people might be forgiven and sent to paradise and some good people might be sent to hell.

Christians believe that you cannot presume to know the will of God and that God might send you anywhere.

-

Hey.


That's exactly what us muslims believe, except we have proofs from the Qur'an and Sunnah to support this, whereas the christians are always in a debate - due to the difference of opinion by Paul and James.


Peace.

[Paul Williams]

There is a Hadith which address these issues eschatologicaly which I'll dig out if you are interested. For me it is the best solution to the problem of theodicy I have read anywhere. Let me know if you are interested

I don't knoe about Joe but I am.

Dear Joe98 & Heigou, I hope you enjoy these thoughts...

For Islam as for Christianity this life is a preparation for what is to come, but no one will seriously prepare himself for something that appears to him unreal, a fantasy, a dream. It is difficult enough for the young to grasp in an entirely concrete manner the fact that - assuming they survive - they will eventually be old people. How much more difficult, then, for the human creature, young or old, to understand that divine Judgement, heaven and hell will come as surely as tomorrow's dawn, or yet more surely, since that dawn cannot come unless God so wills, whereas the advent of physical death and all that follows upon it represents the only infallible prediction we can make concerning our future.

It is by no means easy for those whose whole attention is focused upon the massive apparent reality of this world to accept the fact that it can at any moment, and will at some moment, disappear like a puff of smoke. Yet the Qur'an assures us that the akhiria, the hereafter, is 'better and more lasting', and this suggests that it is more real than any 'reality' we experience here.

The three monotheistic religions (unlike Hinduism, for example) are not altogether happy with the imagery of 'dreaming' as applied to our present state of existence, although this imagery is by no means foreign either to Islam or Christianity. It is often misunderstood, since people readily take it to mean that life is 'less real' than we take it to be, whereas the intention is to indicate that there are other possible states of experience so intense that, in relation to our everyday experience of this world, they may be compared to wakefulness in relation to dreaming. There is a hadith recorded by Muslim which can scarcely be interpreted in any other terms. The man who had the pleasantest life in the world, so we are told, will be dipped momentarily into hell on the Day of Resurrection. He will then be asked, 'Son of Adam, did you ever experience any good? Did anything pleasant ever come your way?' and he will reply, 'No, my Lord, I swear it!' Then the man who, of all men, had the most miserable life on earth will be dipped momentarily into Paradise. He will then be brought before his Lord and asked, 'Son of Adam, did you ever have any misfortune? Did any distress ever come your way?' and he will reply, 'No, my Lord, I swear it! No misfortune has ever come to me and I have never known distress.'

It would be difficult to find a simpler or more striking illustration of the difference between degrees of reality as experienced by a consciousness transposed from a lower one to a higher one. At the same time it offers, at least to those who are prepared to accept the possibility that there may be states of experience 'more real' than anything we live through here, one answer to the question as to how God can allow the innocent to suffer in this world. If anyone were to awaken from a bad dream, full of fear and torment, to find himself at home beside his beloved, sunlight streaming through the window, a prospect of golden days before him and all his deepest longings satisfied, for how long would he remember the pain of his dream? On the other hand, if he were to awaken from a dream of delight to find himself in an all too familiar prison cell, awaiting the next session of torture at the hands of merciless inquisitors and quite without hope, dream-pleasure would melt away in moments. Whether it be sweet or sour, reality takes precedence over dreaming, and the greater reality takes precedence over the lesser.

A delicate balance has to be maintained between two extremes: on the one hand a view of human life which attributes absolute reality to the world of the senses, on the other a view which dismisses this world as 'unreal'. Islam, as the religion of the 'middle way' has maintained this balance with great care, however often individual Muslims may have veered to one extreme or the other.

this is taken from Islam and the destiny of Man, by Gai Eaton :)

[Paul Williams]

thanks. Its really made a big impression on me to, and helped me to become a muslim

[Woodrow]

This is quite an interesting thread. So far I'm trying to read the whole thing, I must say I still am not fully comprehending what each person has said or what specificaly I would like to add or just keep my mouth shut. Just to add some thing here that may be of some use to some body. Here is a short flash movie that compares Islam and Christianity. Points out some similaritites and the major differences. Just dropping this off as a reference tool for any who wish to use it.

http://media.putfile.com/IslamChristianity-compared

[Paul Williams]

Salam

thanks for the link. i enjoyed the show!

Bilal :)

[searchingsoul]

Fundamental Christians and all Muslims believe that all morals have been given to mankind by God, and that by studying the Word of God one can conclude the rights and wrongs on all issues. In other words morals, what is right and what is wrong, are absolutes. This contrasts with contemporary western society where morals are open to reasoning and that religion although possibly having a large part to play is not the decisive element, which is the concept of what is humane.


Basically then fundamental Christians and Muslims form their religious beliefs in the same manner but from different sources. I do not feel that these two groups can peacefully co-exist. We do need to take into account that not all Christians are fundamental and some Muslims are becoming more secular. Such secularization is inevitable due to a global economy.

There is hope I believe for peace between Christianity and Islam.:)