Ezra son of God - Error

[Guest]

The Quran itself claims that it is perfect (Sura 85:21-22). Therefore, if even one error is found in the text, the Quran is proven to be false. Can someone please explain this Sura to me?

In Surah at-Taubah, 9:30, it states:

And the Jews say, "Ezra is the Son of God;"
and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the Son of God."

Christians do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, however Jews do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. And please note that it does not say "a" Son of God, but the grammtical constructions reads the Son of God, definite article.

Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi

Furthermore, it cannot be said that there were "some" Jews at one point in time in History that believed that Ezra was the Son of God since there is a definite article before the titles "Jews" and "Christians", thus it refers to the Christians and Jews in GENERAL. Any orthodox Jew or Rabbi will tell you that this statement is FALSE. This is clearly an error in the Quran and the Quran claims to be the perfect word of God, someone care to explain?

[IceQueen~]

The Quran itself claims that it is perfect (Sura 85:21-22). Therefore, if even one error is found in the text, the Quran is proven to be false. Can someone please explain this Sura to me?

In Surah at-Taubah, 9:30, it states:

And the Jews say, "Ezra is the Son of God;"
and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the Son of God."

Christians do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, however Jews do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. And please note that it does not say "a" Son of God, but the grammtical constructions reads the Son of God, definite article.

Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi

Furthermore, it cannot be said that there were "some" Jews at one point in time in History that believed that Ezra was the Son of God since there is a definite article before the titles "Jews" and "Christians", thus it refers to the Christians and Jews in GENERAL. Any orthodox Jew or Rabbi will tell you that this statement is FALSE. This is clearly an error in the Quran and the Quran claims to be the perfect word of God, someone care to explain?

are you talking about 'uzayr'?

[Guest]

Uzair (Ezra), yes!

[Muslim Soldier]

Yes Uzayr was considered by Jews as the son of God.
And that is no error coz at that time it was true,

And the Jews say, "Ezra is the Son of God;"

At that time Jews did say it!

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[IceQueen~]

yup, he was the guy who wrote the torah from memory after it was burnt by the assyrrians-the jews believed he was the son of God

[IceQueen~]

The Quran itself claims that it is perfect (Sura 85:21-22). Therefore, if even one error is found in the text, the Quran is proven to be false. Can someone please explain this Sura to me?

In Surah at-Taubah, 9:30, it states:

And the Jews say, "Ezra is the Son of God;"
and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the Son of God."

Christians do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, however Jews do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. And please note that it does not say "a" Son of God, but the grammtical constructions reads the Son of God, definite article.

Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi

Furthermore, it cannot be said that there were "some" Jews at one point in time in History that believed that Ezra was the Son of God since there is a definite article before the titles "Jews" and "Christians", thus it refers to the Christians and Jews in GENERAL. Any orthodox Jew or Rabbi will tell you that this statement is FALSE. This is clearly an error in the Quran and the Quran claims to be the perfect word of God, someone care to explain?

where is ur proof they do not believe he is the son of God because as far as i've read and studied-jews do believe that...

[Guest]

Please re-read what I posted. It does not state that the Jews at "ONE POINT" believed that Ezra was the Son of God, but Jews in General:

Furthermore, it cannot be said that there were "some" Jews at one point in time in History that believed that Ezra was the Son of God since there is a definite article before the titles "Jews" and "Christians", thus it refers to the Christians and Jews in GENERAL. Any orthodox Jew or Rabbi will tell you that this statement is FALSE. This is clearly an error in the Quran and the Quran claims to be the perfect word of God, someone care to explain?

Take a look at the context, if that Sura says that Jews at "ONE POINT" believed that Ezra was the Son of God, then Christians at "ONE POINT" believed that Jesus was the Son of God. That is not what it says, there is a "DEFINITE ARTICLE" (THE JEWS), not (SOME OR A JEW/S), thus it refers to the Jews in General just as it refers to the Christians in general in that Sura.

[IceQueen~]

have you read my post?

[Al-Mu'min]

Greetings guest,

Read this:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...rnal/ezra.html

Peace out.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Furthermore, it cannot be said that there were "some" Jews at one point in time in History that believed that Ezra was the Son of God since there is a definite article before the titles "Jews" and "Christians", thus it refers to the Christians and Jews in GENERAL. Any orthodox Jew or Rabbi will tell you that this statement is FALSE. This is clearly an error in the Quran and the Quran claims to be the perfect word of God, someone care to explain?

Hello,

I'd like to know why are you asking the question if you are setting definite limits to yourself and claiming that something 'cannot be said'? You are simply asking ignorant questions then to try to claim that the Quran has an error. You are approaching the Quran with a set agenda. You arent going to be able to learn anything and much less agree if you ask and then say what the answer has to be or for that matter, what the answer cannot be.

[IceQueen~]

Hello,

I'd like to know why are you asking the question if you are setting definite limits to yourself and claiming that something 'cannot be said'? You are simply asking ignorant questions then to try to claim that the Quran has an error. You are approaching the Quran with a set agenda. You arent going to be able to learn anything and much less agree if you ask and then say what the answer has to be or for that matter, what the answer cannot be.

wisely said bro' ahmed masha allah!

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Clearly your not familiar with the Quran.

If you carry on reading the following verse, it will say

"They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him)." [Surah Tawbah Ayah 31]

Now any person with knowledge will understand that christians and jews dont really say our monks are our gods besides Allah, and if you look into the Hadeeths of the Prophet :arabic5: you will see that even the companions said this, and the Prophet replied, didnt they make things that were Halal Haram? and viceversa, and this is what is meant by their worship of the monks and rabis and how they took them as lords besides Allah.

As for your definte title question, I see that you have not read the Quran at all.

A quick example to show you what I mean is,

"Those to whom the people said: Surely men have gathered against you, therefore fear them, but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent is the Protector." [Surah Ale Imran Ayah 173]

Now if you understand arabic and the Quran you will straight away see that the word used here is 'An Naas' meaning "Mankind" but this is not what the verse refers to because it was only a group of man that said this statement, but because of the severity of their saying Allah said "Mankind"

[Guest]

Yes I read your post, the best a answer you have is where is my proof? I don't have to be a scholar to know that the Jews in General do not believe that God has a literal Son, if you have just a little knowledge of Jewish orthodox then you will know that they do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. It only takes a imple study on Judaism to know factually that this is not a tenet of the Jews.

[IceQueen~]

:sl:

Clearly your not familiar with the Quran.

If you carry on reading the following verse, it will say

"They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him)." [Surah Tawbah Ayah 31]

Now any person with knowledge will understand that christians and jews dont really say our monks are our gods besides Allah, and if you look into the Hadeeths of the Prophet :arabic5: you will see that even the companions said this, and the Prophet replied, didnt they make things that were Halal Haram? and viceversa, and this is what is meant by their worship of the monks and rabis and how they took them as lords besides Allah.

As for your definte title question, I see that you have not read the Quran at all.

A quick example to show you what I mean is,

"Those to whom the people said: Surely men have gathered against you, therefore fear them, but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent is the Protector." [Surah Ale Imran Ayah 173]

Know if you understand arabic and the Quran you will straight away see that the word used here is 'An Naas' meaning "Mankind" but this is not what the verse refers to because it was only a group of man that said this statement, but because of the severity of theyre saying Allah said "Mankind"

MASHA ALLAH!!!

[IceQueen~]

Yes I read your post, the best a answer you have is where is my proof? I don't have to be a scholar to know that the Jews in General do not believe that God has a literal Son, if you have just a little knowledge of Jewish orthodox then you will know that they do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. It only takes a imple study on Judaism to know factually that this is not a tenet of the Jews.

ok -NOW HAVE U READ BROTHER KHALDUN'S POST?

[Guest]

I have read his post and don't see his point. He is trying to make both terms "INDEFINITE", al-yahoodu AND al-nasara, not Gods Son, but the Son of God. Christians do not speak of Jesus in the Past tense, but we say that Jesus IS the Son of God. Likewise it would read, Ezra IS the Son of God. Jews do not believe that Ezra IS the Son of God. Plain and simple, he is trying to complicate it.

[IceQueen~]

I have read his post and don't see his point. He is trying to make both terms "INDEFINITE", al-yahoodu AND al-nasara, not Gods Son, but the Son of God. Christians do not speak of Jesus in the Past tense, but we say that Jesus IS the Son of God. Likewise it would read, Ezra IS the Son of God.

so ur a christian?
yeah-you don't see his point
i hope God guides you to the truth! ameen!

[Guest]

Where and when did I state that I was a "Christian"? Do you mind showing me where I said this? I simply stated what Christians believe, you made the assumption that since I disagreed with the Islamic belief that I am a Christian.

[Khaldun]

:sl:

He is trying to make both terms "INDEFINITE"

Please dont put words into my mouth, I never said this. Im just trying to show you that the second one is not Definite as in the way you said.

Jews do not believe that Ezra IS the Son of God. Plain and simple, he is trying to complicate it.

Im trying to complicate it? By using the Quran itself and the way it uses words and terms to explain the question you posed?

It is evident to me that you dont like the truth and your set on finding an error in the Quran, well ill save you the effort my friend, find something more useful to do :)

[Muslim Soldier]

but we say that Jesus IS the Son of God.

Where and when did I state that I was a "Christian"? Do you mind showing me where I said this? I simply stated what Christians believe, you made the assumption that since I disagreed with the Islamic belief that I am a Christian.

Now you tell me who made that assumption. :happy:

[Makky]

Simply and easly Mr guest!
have you ever seen a christian says : jesus is a prophet?...have you heard about unitarians...they are christians but do they say that jesus is GOD?
tell us if you know.

the verse- Mr/ guest- says that some jews claim to say that u'zair is son of god, and if you give your mind few mins to imagine jews in the age of the prophet Muhamad you would be able to** believe** that if the jews in his age know that there wasn't any one before who claim that u'zair is the son of god then it would be easy for jews in this time to argue with the prophet mohammed and to show all arabs that the quran has errors but we all know that this didn't happen at all..

Mr guest
the prophet immigrated to al-madinah where the majority of the jews in the arabia lives

at least if he was a lair he would erase it if one of the jews around just claim that it never happened in the history of judaism. but actually non of jews at his time has any problem to listen to this verse..and it wasn't an argument point with jews at the prophet (SAAW) time

but non of this happened at all MR-guest

enjoy your stay here and welcome to the fourm :)

[Mohsin]

Where and when did I state that I was a "Christian"? Do you mind showing me where I said this? I simply stated what Christians believe, you made the assumption that since I disagreed with the Islamic belief that I am a Christian.

Lol right here bro

Christians do not speak of Jesus in the Past tense, but we say that Jesus is the Son of God. .

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I responded to this issue in the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...an-friend.html

Again,

Muhammad Asad is a jew who converted to Islam and this is what he says about this verse:

This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation. The charge of shirk ("the ascribing of divinity [or "divine qualities"] to aught beside God") is levelled against both the Jews and the Christians in amplification, as it were, of the statement that they "do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them]".
As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?") On the other hand, Ezra occupies a unique position in the esteem of all Jews, and has always been praised by them in the most extravagant terms. It was he who restored and codified the Torah after it had been lost during the Babylonian Exile, and "edited" it in more or less the form which it has today; and thus "he promoted the establishment of an exclusive, legalistic type of religion that became dominant in later Judaism" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, vol. IX, p. 15). Ever since then he has been venerated to such a degree that his verdicts on the Law of Moses have come to be regarded by the Talmudists as being practically equivalent to the Law itself: which, in Qur'anic ideology, amounts to the unforgivable sin of shirk, inasmuch as it implies the elevation of a human being to the status of a quasi-divine law-giver and the blasphemous attribution to him - albeit metaphorically - of the quality of "sonship" in relation to God. Cf. in this connection Exodus iv, 22-23 ("Israel is My son") or Jeremiah xxxi, 9 ("I am a father to Israel"): expressions to which, because of their idolatrous implications, the Qur'dn takes strong exception. (Asad, Message of the Qur'an)

More info here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...rnal/ezra.html

...the quote that I gave from Muhammad Asad, a former Jew himself, who pointed out that, as mentioned in At-Tabari's tafsir, some Jews came to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and said, "How can we follow you when you do not believe Uzayr is the son of God?". Noice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believe Uzayr is the son of God, but the Qur'an is very precise in saying that the Jews say Uzayr is the son of God. Thus, it cannot be a contradiction in any way since the Qur'an is only responding to the verbal proclamation of a group of Jews!

Also interesting is Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali's comments on this issue:

Of course there is no evidence in the extant Old Testament about it; but the Qur'an was not referring to what is written in the Old Testament about 'Uzayr but to the belief and assertion of some of the Jews of the time who regarded 'Uzayr as the son of God. In fact the 'ayah in question, 9:30, starts with the expression: "And the Jews say". The commentator Al-Baydawi, to whome Watt refers a number of times in his book, (fn. Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, 108, note 2 to Chapter 1 and notes 2 and 10 to Chapter III) makes it clear with reference to this 'ayah that because the Old Testament was given its present form by 'Uzayr, many of the Jews of the time considered him a "son of God" and that specifically at Madina there was a group of Jews who held that belief. Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412). It is to be noted that this 'ayah is unanimously regarded as Madinan. Hence the silence of the Jews of the place on the matter is suggestive enough, particularly as they were avowed critics of the Prophet.
Not only Al-Baydawi but also other commentators mention that the 'ayah refers to the views of a particular group of the Jews. For instance, Al-Tabari bives a number of reports together with their chains of narrators specifically mentioning the leading Jews of Madina who considered Uzayr a son of God. The most prominent of those Jews were Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf (fn. Al-Tabari, Tafsir, XIV, 201-204). Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117). (Muhammad Mohar Ali, The Qur'an and the Orientalists, Jam'iyat 'Ihyaa' Minhaaj Al-Sunnah 2004, p. 66)

So as for what he quotes,

Notice the words "proposed" and "assumption". There are no records from any Jewish community that believed Ezra was the Son of God!

First of all, this is the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantium which we can refute with the expression, "absence of proof is not proof of absence". In other words, just because we don't have Judaic records that shows that Jews believed this, does not prove that no Jews ever believed this!

Secondly, as was previously mentioned, there are specific historical narrations related by Qur'anic commentators like Al-Baydawi and At-Tabari which state the names of specific Jewish leaders who came forward to the Muslims and said "We cannot believe you since you do not accept Uzayr as the son of God". And notice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believed Uzayr was the son of God, it says quite clearly that they said he was the son of God. So, the Qur'an was responding to an explicit proclamation of the Jews. Either the Jews were intentionally lying, or they actually believed what they said - but in any event the Qur'an can't be wrong since the Jews of Madinah actually said this.

:w

Guest wrote:

Take a look at the context, if that Sura says that Jews at "ONE POINT" believed that Ezra was the Son of God, then Christians at "ONE POINT" believed that Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes, it does not speak about the beliefs of anyone - it says the Jews SAY, i.e. it was responding to a verbal statement made by the Jews of Madinah.

[IceQueen~]

Yes I read your post, the best a answer you have is where is my proof? I don't have to be a scholar to know that the Jews in General do not believe that God has a literal Son, if you have just a little knowledge of Jewish orthodox then you will know that they do not believe that Ezra is the Son of God. It only takes a imple study on Judaism to know factually that this is not a tenet of the Jews.

oh don't they? but they do not dislike what some of them did? so in effect they agree with them and so are part of them! on the day of judgement u are raised with the ones u love even if u didn't exactly do the same things..
ohh and is this the best thing you got against the quran?

surah 9:32" the disbelievers want to extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His light be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it"

see ya irsha!

[Ayesha Rana]

Whahaha! Does she even have an answer?

[Mohsin]

edit

[Ayesha Rana]

Edit

[QURBAN]

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!


first of all you should always read the Qur'an with a good tafsir, or commentary. Every single verse of the Qur'an should be understood within it's proper contexts. A text without a context is a pretext for foolishness.

secondly It is important to know the scriptural context of a verse. What does the Qur'an say right before and after this verse? Are there other verses dealing with the same topic?

Also important is the historical context, meaning what was happening at the time the verse was revealed. This can often shed a lot of light on how the verse was meant to be understood.

:)

[Abdullah4ever]

:sl:

Please read here ---

NO ANTI-ISLAMIC LINKS!

[Goku]

Brother Abdullah4ever that website is anti-Islam and here's the website dedicated to exposing their lies:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

[Abdullah4ever]

:sl:

Ops sorry rong address im sorry mods

[akulion]

salam alaikum

what i find exteremely funny is that since people cannot "attack the Quran" in the scientific context they always try and use the historic prespective from 1000's of years before and what happend then.

Wheras the fact about history can be summed up in this little story:

"General Custer - The Great Hero of Yester-years - now exposed to be the villan and instigator through Archeology" - This was rejected by the US and they refused to change their history books stating that historians and archeologists can be wrong.

So basically Archeologists and Historians can "guess" or even make "fairly accurate" guesses at what was going on back 1000's of years ago but they cannot 100% accurately say "this is what happend"

But I find it hilarious when people come attacking the Quran suddenly the word of historians and archeologists becomes "fact"

lol

[IceQueen~]

where is guest? has she/he left the forum or something?:?
may Allah guide him/her, ameen!

[Ayesha Rana]

Yeah i haven't seen any other posts by Guest iether. Check her profile to see if ther are any other threads by her.

[IzakHalevas]

Deuteronomy 14:1 - You are the SONS OF GOD. You shall not cut yourselves, or make any baldness on your head on account of the Dead.

Actually it is:

"Ye are the children of the L-RD your G-d: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead."

And the Hebrew for that part is, בָּנִים אַתֶּם which is "baneem attem"

This is G-d explaining that he does not want his children express their grief by mutilating themselves, since we are all G-d's creation and in an essence G-d's children.

The "son of G-d" that Christians refer to, cannot be supported in Jewish text. I cannot speak for their own text however, but I do believe them to be false.

[Ninth_Scribe]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: 16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and COMPANIONS, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present.

[Link]

Salam

It is refering to some jews who did say that. Not all.

If you say that's not possible to mean that, I say go learn something about arabic first, then make that assertion.

[IzakHalevas]

Salam

It is refering to some jews who did say that. Not all.

If you say that's not possible to mean that, I say go learn something about arabic first, then make that assertion.

Is this not the verse:

"The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللّهِ وَقَالَتْ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِؤُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim yudahi-oona qawla allatheena kafaroo min qablu qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona

Why would G-d not say "Some Jews"?

[Link]

Is this not the verse:
Why would G-d not say "Some Jews"?

You speak arabic?

I told you it can mean some. Take it or leave it.

[zaria]

where is guest? has she/he left the forum or something?:?
may Allah guide him/her, ameen!

Ameen to the du'a

[Link]

Anways, reading other verses shows this is not a generalization, because a party of jews and christians were saved by a rope from God (book) and rope from men (appointed guide).

Other verses show those amomg jews and chritians with proper belief in God and did good, would be rewarded.

Ofcourse, looking at a verse in isolation is something everyone likes to do with Quran these days.

For example, people say Quran says you can be friends with anyone other then muslims (even chrisitans, jews). But other verses show those verses prohibiting friendship were not general to all christians, jews or polythiests, they were particular only to those who fight and kill us.