Islam and Christianity

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

Some good articles here:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/
http://www.leveltruth.com/books.asp
http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm





EDIT I'll hide this here in a really old post ;)

[Uthman]

I look forward to your next post Br. Ansar! It was enlightening!;)

[Umm Yoosuf]

Masha Allah Zakir Naik indeed his really good! May Allah increase Him in Knowledge!

I found this really helpful take a look!

http://english.islamway.com/flashpag...=780&hight=400

[afriend]

:sl:

Some good articles here:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/
http://www.leveltruth.com/books.asp
http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm



EDIT I'll hide this here in a really old post ;)

lol....Hiding eh? Not with me ;D

Jazakallah khair for the link.....

I really think you can make it to the IRF bro Ansar....Give it a try inshallah...We'll all make dua for you ;)

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[dougmusr]

:sl:

Some good articles here:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/
http://www.leveltruth.com/books.asp
http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

EDIT I'll hide this here in a really old post ;)

I picked http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm for starters. Here are a few comments on the article about Christianity.

A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me".

This statement is plainly false as the following verses show. The Christian scriptures indicate that Christ was crucified for His claims to be the Son of God, and in fact He claimed to be the "I AM" encountered by Moses. The claim was so clear to His audience that the crowd picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

Jn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Ex 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Jn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most ***uredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so p***ed by.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."

There is a considerable difference between believing in Jesus as a prophet and and knowing Jesus as Savior.

Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).

One can die in sin or out of sin based upon what one believes about Jesus. Jesus clearly states in the following verse that He is from above. Prophets are not from above.

Jn 8:23 "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’ And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]

Jesus did not say in this verse He was not good, therefore He did not say He was not God. He said there is only one that is good, and that is God.

In anycase, read further and see that the man who claimed to be following the commandments was still unsure of his salvation.

Mt 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

Well, the book of Acts, which is above cited as proof that Jesus was a prophet, also contains proof that He is Lord, that He was crucified, and that He was raised from the dead.

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."


Acts 4:10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

The claims of the IRF about the contents and claims of the Bible are clearly suspect.

[Phil12123]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
FORUM RULE 17.When a long article/post has been posted, and you want to comment on the article/post, do not quote it since it is a waste of space.

One can die in sin or out of sin based upon what one believes about Jesus. Jesus clearly states in the following verse that He is from above. Prophets are not from above.

Jn 8:23 "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

By the way, in this verse there is no "He" in the original Greek, so it should be properly translated, "if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins," a clear reference to the Great I AM of Exodus 3:14. Here we have a verse from the lips of Jesus Himself that if you don't believe He is God you will die in your sins.


Good post, Doug. It amazes me that in articles like that we see the same old things that are said on this Board, repeated over and over, and we answer them all, over and over, all to no avail. It's like our audience has blinders on and earplugs. Same old stuff refuted time and again and they are not seeing it and are "dull of hearing". Sort of like what Paul experienced as recorded in Acts 28:

23. So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
24. And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.
25. So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
26. "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27. For the heart of this people has grown dull. their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.''

It probably all goes back to the statement of Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Trinity and Deity of Christ are "foolishness" (or worse) to Muslims because in their "natural" mind they cannot receive things of the Spirit of God, not being able to spiritually discern them.

Peace

[Woodrow]

When these words:

25. So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
26. "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27. For the heart of this people has grown dull. their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.''

ceased to be followed by the majority of those who called themselves Christians, was it not mercifull of Allah(swt) to send us these words of hope and understanding.

:73. When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, the Unbelievers say to those who believe, "Which of the two sides is best in point of position? Which makes the best show in council?" S P C
19:74. But how many (countless) generations before them have we destroyed, who were even better in equipment and in glitter to the eye? S P

19:75. Say: "If any men go astray, (Allah) Most Gracious extends (the rope) to them, until, when they see the warning of Allah (being fulfilled) - either in punishment or in (the approach of) the Hour,- they will at length realise who is worst in position, and (who) weakest in forces! S P C
19:76. "And Allah doth advance in guidance those who seek guidance: and the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of (their) eventual return." S P C
19:77. Hast thou then seen the (sort of) man who rejects Our Signs, yet says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children?" S P C
19:78. Has he penetrated to the Unseen, or has he taken a contract with (Allah) Most Gracious? S P
19:79. Nay! We shall record what he says, and We shall add and add to his punishment. S P C

19:80. To Us shall return all that he talks of and he shall appear before Us bare and alone. S P C 19:81. And they have taken (for worship) gods other than Allah, to give them power and glory! S P C
19:82. Instead, they shall reject their worship, and become adversaries against them. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Doug,

This statement is plainly false as the following verses show.

Since you haven't provided any verse saying "I am God" or "Worship Me" I can only assume that you were referring to the portion on Jesus claiming divinity. Do your references provide unequivocal claims to divinity on the part of Christ? Let's see...

The Christian scriptures indicate that Christ was crucified for His claims to be the Son of God, and in fact He claimed to be the "I AM" encountered by Moses. The claim was so clear to His audience that the crowd picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

Jn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Read the next few verses!!! Why did you OMIT Jesus's defense to their allegation?

“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I (God) said, ‘You are gods’?* If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?” (John 10:34-36).
*Psalm 82:6

This passage shows that Jesus defended himself saying, "But in your own scripture (Psalm 82:6), mere judges are called Gods! What then of someone who came with revelation from God? Surely the title 'god' is more fitting for him!"

This passage is an in-your-face-screaming-reference to metaphorical use of the word 'god'. Why does Jesus compare calling Jesus god to calling humans god if the former is to be taken literally and the latter metaphorically?

Ex 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Ah yes, the famous 'I AM' statements. Dr. Laurence Brown:

‘Evidence’ #4 -- Jesus is recorded in John 8:58 as having said, “...before Abraham was, I AM” and Exodus 3:14 records God as having informed Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
First of all, according to the words of Jesus, is a person to conclude that Jesus had a pre-human existence? According to Jeremiah 1:5, so did Jeremiah. According to the Islamic religion, so did all mankind. Next, is a person to draw a parallel between the ‘I AM’ attributed to Jesus and that attributed to God? Once again the foundational text pokes fun at the translation. Jesus is not recorded to have said “...I AM” in capital ‘makes-me-look-like-God’ letters. Jesus is translated as having said “...I AM” in a ‘looks-like-God’s-words-in-Exodus, think-they’ll-buy-it?’ effort at textual synchronization. What Jesus is recorded to have said is ‘eimi’ in small, humble, uncapitalized, unprepossessing and non-exclusive (found 152 times in the New Testament) Greek letters which don’t justify capitals or comparison with the supposed words of God in Exodus (which themselves are not capitalized, either in the Hebrew ‘hayah’ or the Greek Septuagint ‘ho ohn’). By no means can the New Testament Greek ‘eimi’ attributed to Jesus be compared with the Old Testament Greek ‘ho ohn’ attributed to God in the Septuagint. By no means of honesty or accuracy, that is. Likewise, neither can either one of these phrases honestly be capitalized “I AM,” especially in light of the 151 other instances of ‘eimi’ being translated to the uncapitalized, “I am.” Why is ‘eimi’ capitalized once and not capitalized 151 times, if not due to the selective desires of the translators? To their own credit, most reputable Bibles avoid this textual games-playing, and translation of the words of Jesus are not capitalized to ‘I AM’ in the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New Revised Standard Version, the American Standard Version, and many others. (Brown, The First and Final Commandment, p. 112)

If you don't like a Muslim response you can read a Jewish one:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html

There is a considerable difference between believing in Jesus as a prophet and and knowing Jesus as Savior.

And?

One can die in sin or out of sin based upon what one believes about Jesus. Jesus clearly states in the following verse that He is from above. Prophets are not from above.

Jn 8:23 "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Muslims believe that Prophets are from above. They are sent by the One above the seven heavens. Not evidence of divinity.

Jesus did not say in this verse He was not good, therefore He did not say He was not God. He said there is only one that is good, and that is God.

What does the question "Why do you call me good?" connote except disapproval?

In anycase, read further and see that the man who claimed to be following the commandments was still unsure of his salvation.

Mt 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I agree. People in the time of Jesus had to follow him to attain paradise.

Your comments on Acts are true - they do state the crucifixion and resurrection.

Regards

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It amazes me that in articles like that we see the same old things that are said on this Board, repeated over and over, and we answer them all, over and over, all to no avail. It's like our audience has blinders on and earplugs. Same old stuff refuted time and again and they are not seeing it and are "dull of hearing".

What utter rubbish! Anyone can clearly see that the original post was made in the year 2004 - way before you and doug even joined the forum!! So much for "answering them over and over to no avail"! Please just give your response and spare us the nonsensical complaints.

Regards

[dougmusr]

Read the next few verses!!! Why did you OMIT Jesus's defense to their allegation?

“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I (God) said, ‘You are gods’?* If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?” (John 10:34-36).
*Psalm 82:6

This passage shows that Jesus defended himself saying, "But in your own scripture (Psalm 82:6), mere judges are called Gods! What then of someone who came with revelation from God? Surely the title 'god' is more fitting for him!"

This passage is an in-your-face-screaming-reference to metaphorical use of the word 'god'. Why does Jesus compare calling Jesus god to calling humans god if the former is to be taken literally and the latter metaphorically?

It is obvious from verses 37-39 that Jesus had no intent of denying His deity. He again claimed to be one with the Father and remained in danger as a result.

Jn 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Also, I would think it would be impossible for two objects to fully contain each other unless they had identical form.

First of all, according to the words of Jesus, is a person to conclude that Jesus had a pre-human existence? According to Jeremiah 1:5, so did Jeremiah.

Jeramiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

This verse in no way indicates Jeramial had a pre-earthly existance, it rather describes God's omnscience.

According to the Islamic religion, so did all mankind.

According to Jesus, Islam is wrong if it believes this since Jesus existed before Abraham.

Jn 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Likewise, neither can either one of these phrases honestly be capitalized “I AM,” especially in light of the 151 other instances of ‘eimi’ being translated to the uncapitalized, “I am.” Why is ‘eimi’ capitalized once and not capitalized 151 times, if not due to the selective desires of the translators? To their own credit, most reputable Bibles avoid this textual games-playing, and translation of the words of Jesus are not capitalized to ‘I AM’ in the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New Revised Standard Version, the American Standard Version, and many others. (Brown, The First and Final Commandment, p. 112)

Sometimes reading the people is more informative that reading the text. I don't know the ancient languages, but the reaction of the Jewish leaders leaves no doubt as to the interpretation of "I AM", whether or not modern translations indulge in "textual games-playing".

What does the question "Why do you call me good?" connote except disapproval?

First, Christ could in fact be probing for and challenging the the beliefs of the individual. Second, the Quran indicates Jesus was righteous, which I would assume means good.

I agree. People in the time of Jesus had to follow him to attain paradise.

What are the beggining and ending dates of "the time of Jesus"?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It is obvious from verses 37-39 that Jesus had no intent of denying His deity. He again claimed to be one with the Father and remained in danger as a result.

Jn 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Also, I would think it would be impossible for two objects to fully contain each other unless they had identical form.

Really?? Then I guess you'll have a very hard time explaining this one!!

John 14:20 “At that day you (i.e. the disciples) will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

I've shown that John 10:29-33 does nothing in the way of proving Christ's divinity since Jesus defends himself by pointing out the metaphorical usage of 'gods', and now I've shown that John 10:38 cannot be taken as proof either since Jesus says the exact same thing about his disciples.

Jeramiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

This verse in no way indicates Jeramial had a pre-earthly existance, it rather describes God's omnscience.

Jeremiah was 'known', 'sanctified' and 'ordained as a prophet' before he was even formed in the womb. It's not me who's inventing this interpretation. In the Jewish commentary of Rabbi Rashi it says:

When I had not yet formed you in the womb, etc. Since the days of the first man. The Holy One, blessed be He, showed Adam each generation and its prophets.

That is actually exactly what Muslims believe as mentioned in the Qur'an Surah Al-'Araf. Even if you want to take it as only God's knowledge of the future, then his pre-human existence would be his existence in the knowledge of God and there's no reason why the same standard couldn't apply to Jesus.

Jn 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Yes, before the coming of Prophet Abraham, Jesus pbuh existed with a pre-human existence. Jesus is essentially saying that before Abraham was created he was appointed as a Prophet by God, just as we read of Jeremiah above. Thus, he is claiming his legitamacy to a people who pride themselves on their ancestry to Abraham.

I don't know the ancient languages, but the reaction of the Jewish leaders leaves no doubt as to the interpretation of "I AM", whether or not modern translations indulge in "textual games-playing".

Matthew 23:37 tells us that the Jews stoned and killed other Prophets that were sent to them:
Jesus says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the
prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Jesus claimed to be a prophet and recieved the same treatment, just as Prophet Muhammad pbuh was met by a barrage of stones when he conveyed his prophethood to the tribe of Thaqîf. The prophets never claimed to be god but they were stoned.

First, Christ could in fact be probing for and challenging the the beliefs of the individual.

But then he should have let the man answer his question. Instead he continued by saying, "There is none good but one, that is God". If I were to accept your response the conversation should have flowed like this:
"Good master"
"Why callest thou me good?"
"Because you're God."
"Bingo!"

Second, the Quran indicates Jesus was righteous, which I would assume means good.

It depends what you mean. Either way, it is significant that Jesus disapproves of the term for himself and affirms it for God.

What are the beggining and ending dates of "the time of Jesus"?

When he began preaching to the people, until when he was taken up by God.

[dougmusr]

Really?? Then I guess you'll have a very hard time explaining this one!!

John 14:20 “At that day you (i.e. the disciples) will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”

I've shown that John 10:29-33 does nothing in the way of proving Christ's divinity since Jesus defends himself by pointing out the metaphorical usage of 'gods', and now I've shown that John 10:38 cannot be taken as proof either since Jesus says the exact same thing about his disciples.

You're quite right. I am having trouble explaining it. We are as a sinful people in grave danger if my human understanding is needed for God to accomplish His work.

That is actually exactly what Muslims believe as mentioned in the Qur'an Surah Al-'Araf. Even if you want to take it as only God's knowledge of the future, then his pre-human existence would be his existence in the knowledge of God and there's no reason why the same standard couldn't apply to Jesus.

The fact that Jesus knew Abraham before Abraham was born shows that Jesus was in existance as a being capable of knowing prior to His birth, so this can't be merely an existance in the knowledge of God (unless of course He is God). I don't think you will find anywhere a claim by any other prophet to have known someone before the prophet's birth

Jesus claimed to be a prophet and recieved the same treatment, just as Prophet Muhammad pbuh was met by a barrage of stones when he conveyed his prophethood to the tribe of Thaqîf. The prophets never claimed to be god but they were stoned.

Jn 10:32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Obviously, you can label the verse as a fabrication because it disagrees with the Jesus proclaimed in the Quran, but I don't think you can deny that the verse says the crowd heard Jesus claim to be God.

But then he should have let the man answer his question. Instead he continued by saying, "There is none good but one, that is God". If I were to accept your response the conversation should have flowed like this:
"Good master"
"Why callest thou me good?"
"Because you're God."
"Bingo!"

I mentioned in another thread that just as there are things in Christian belief you feel defy logic, there are things in Islamic belief that I feel defy logic. Your improved version would certainly have made the verse more clear wouldn't it. In fact, if I were to rewrite the Bible in an attempt to deceive people into thinking it's claims were correct, I certainly would take the time to go through it to fix issues like this conversation. I would have my fellow conspirators do the same, and when we got done, we would compile the changes and come up with one bullet proof document that would stand the test of time. We would then gather the old documents together and destroy them to make sure that all Bibles were the same.

Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You're quite right. I am having trouble explaining it.

It's a step in the right direction to acknowledge that. :)

We are as a sinful people in grave danger if my human understanding is needed for God to accomplish His work.

I don't think anyone here has claimed that human understanding is needed for God to accomplish his work. But God has blessed us human beings with reason and logic to search for the truth. What you have just witnessed is the fact that one biblical reference which was presented as scriptural proof of Christ's divinity was manifestly not so. Christians are hard pressed to find support in Christ's teachings for Christianity's fundamental doctrine.

The fact that Jesus knew Abraham before Abraham was born shows that Jesus was in existance as a being capable of knowing prior to His birth, so this can't be merely an existance in the knowledge of God (unless of course He is God). I don't think you will find anywhere a claim by any other prophet to have known someone before the prophet's birth

First, that he 'knew Abraham' is your interpretation of the text. It is not necessitated by the text itself.

Secondly, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "I am the seal of the Prophets when Adam was in clay." What does that make him?

Thirdly, according to Muslim belief [and Jewish belief as evidenced by the commentary of Rashi], Adam pbuh's descendents were brought forth and made to testify before their Lord. So their pre-human existence included sentience which they are unable to recall.

As an aside, it is interesting that out of all the 'I AM' statements Christians use, none of these appear in the synoptic gospels. How could Matthew, an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus miss every single statement that Christians build their fundamental doctrine upon? And Luke and Mark missed them all too.

Jn 10:32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Obviously, you can label the verse as a fabrication because it disagrees with the Jesus proclaimed in the Quran, but I don't think you can deny that the verse says the crowd heard Jesus claim to be God.

Doug, I already answered this, and calling it a 'fabrication' was not part of my answer:

Read the next few verses!!! Why did you OMIT Jesus's defense to their allegation?

“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I (God) said, ‘You are gods’?* If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?” (John 10:34-36).
*Psalm 82:6

This passage shows that Jesus defended himself saying, "But in your own scripture (Psalm 82:6), mere judges are called Gods! What then of someone who came with revelation from God? Surely the title 'god' is more fitting for him!"

This passage is an in-your-face-screaming-reference to metaphorical use of the word 'god'. Why does Jesus compare calling Jesus god to calling humans god if the former is to be taken literally and the latter metaphorically?

Surely you know the fallacy of argumentum ad nauseum?

I mentioned in another thread that just as there are things in Christian belief you feel defy logic, there are things in Islamic belief that I feel defy logic.

Let's discuss them and see if they really do.

Your improved version would certainly have made the verse more clear wouldn't it.

It would have been more logical if your arguments were to be substantiated. But since the text does not appear that way, such an interpretation seems quite groundless.

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace Ansar Al-'Adl;

But God has blessed us human beings with reason and logic to search for the truth..

This is very true, but logic and reason are not enough to answer the questions about God. Your atheist thread has almost reached the thousand posts, and it seems our atheists friends are still not convinced by any of our logic that God exists.

I believe and trust the Bible, I believe in the divinity of Jesus and that he died for our sins, I believe that God exists.

These are the beliefs that I have.

The same God created both of us, and it is strange that he seems to have set us on different paths. In both the Bible and the Quran it says that God chooses whom he wills, yet he seems to have chosen each one of us through diverse religions.

Maybe the greater challenge that God has set us is how we treat the rest of his creation who we perceive are different to us.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and peace

Eric

[dougmusr]

This passage is an in-your-face-screaming-reference to metaphorical use of the word 'god'. Why does Jesus compare calling Jesus god to calling humans god if the former is to be taken literally and the latter metaphorically?

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" 41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

[QuranStudy]

Wow brother Ansar Al-'Adl, excellent posts (8 and 11)!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Eric,

This is very true, but logic and reason are not enough to answer the questions about God. Your atheist thread has almost reached the thousand posts, and it seems our atheists friends are still not convinced by any of our logic that God exists.

There is a difference between answering and convincing. Atheists are satisfied with pleading ignorance to some of the most fundamental questions about our universe and our existence, rather than accepting the theory that provides the most logically coherent and parsimonious explanation. But of course, that is the topic of another thread.

I believe and trust the Bible, I believe in the divinity of Jesus and that he died for our sins

How do you feel about the fact that your belief in Christ's divinity is devoid of scriptural support from the teachings of Christ himself as recorded in the NT? Is it not possible that you have placed your faith in a man-made doctrine which conflicts with the original teachings of Prophet Jesus?

The same God created both of us, and it is strange that he seems to have set us on different paths.

God created us with free-will. He gave us the choice to accept man-made doctrines or to strive in the search for the true message of the Prophets.

What about people who are polytheists? The Bible and the Qur'an condemns them but they could also say that they have been 'set' on a different path.

In both the Bible and the Quran it says that God chooses whom he wills, yet he seems to have chosen each one of us through diverse religions.

How do you know this? Is it not possible that God may guide you to a path that is closer to the truth tomorrow?

Maybe the greater challenge that God has set us is how we treat the rest of his creation who we perceive are different to us.

Of course we are to treat all of God's creation with respect and mercy, but at the same time we should also strive to spread the true guidance so others may share in peace and tranquility that comes from a strong relationship with God.

Hi Doug,

Mat 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" 41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

Thanks for sharing this passage. Since it doesn't relate to my response to John 10:33, I can only assume you are raising it as a new attempt to provide evidence. What do you feel this passage proves?

Peace :)

[dougmusr]

Thanks for sharing this passage. Since it doesn't relate to my response to John 10:33, I can only assume you are raising it as a new attempt to provide evidence. What do you feel this passage proves?

Actually it does relate to some of our interchanges related to the sonship of Christ, like post #8. In this parable, Christ indicates that God sent prophets to Israel but the message was ignored. Islam agrees with this portion of the parable. The parable also says God sent a final messenger, His Son. I think verse 44 sums it up.

"And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

I interpret being broken as acknowledging one's sin and turning to God in repentance. All people will see Christ one day. He will either be their savior, or their judge.

[Mohsin]

"And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

I interpret being broken as acknowledging one's sin and turning to God in repentance. All people will see Christ one day. He will either be their savior, or their judge.

I dont see how you have come to this interpretation based on that verse

[dougmusr]

I dont see how you have come to this interpretation based on that verse

Repentance is I feel being broken before God, that is accepting His will for ones life.

Ps 34:18 The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise.

I see the reference to grinding as part of destruction. The Old Testament mentions grinding idols to powder as one method of cleansing the land from idolatry.

Dt 9: "Then I took your sin, the calf which you had made, and burned it with fire and crushed it and ground it very small, until it was as fine as dust; and I threw its dust into the brook that descended from the mountain.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Actually it does relate to some of our interchanges related to the sonship of Christ, like post #8.

But surely this parable has more in conflict with Christian dogma than with Muslim beliefs. The parable tells us

• there was a landowner who planted a vineyard and leased it to vinedressers
• at vintage time, the landowner sent his servants continually to the vindressers to recieve its fruits but the servants were beaten and killed
• then last he sends his son for the same purpose, thinking they will respect his son, but he was wrong

Christians believe that Jesus was sent to die for our sins. Yet, contrary to the notion of vicarious atonement, this passage affirms that the purpose of sending the 'son' was exactly the same as the purpose behind sending the 'servants' - the only difference was that it was hoped that the 'son' would be more respected. The purpose of sending the servants was so that the vinedressers would render to God His due and fulfill His rights over them. They were sent as messengers to request the vinedressers to fulfill their duties. And the 'son' was sent likewise as a messenger, albeit one who it was hoped would be more respected.

If the passage was a true reflection of Christian beliefs then the 'son' would have been sent with the purpose of being killed by the tenants so that he could die for their sins. In fact the passage explicitly states that the landowner intended that the son would NOT die and even expected the son to be respected, but they killed him anyway.

As for how it relates to our discussion on 'sonship', the term used again is huios which has been shown to have a metaphorical and figurative meaning in numerous passages; please see my post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/447148-post12.html

All in all, I don't think this parable provides basis for a strong argument against Muslim views, and it certainly does nothing in the way of establishing Christ's divinity. The fundamental doctrine of Christianity would seem to be devoid of support in Christ's teachings. The sincere seeker of truth must be prepared to embrace the teachings brought by all of God's Prophets and follow the pure and pristine message He has sent.

In this parable, Christ indicates that God sent prophets to Israel but the message was ignored. Islam agrees with this portion of the parable.

It certainly does.

The parable also says God sent a final messenger [to the Israelities], His Son. I think verse 44 sums it up.

"And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

Is it not possible that the 'rejected stone' is a reference to Ishmael, and that the kingdom of God is being taken from the Israelites and given to the Ishmaelites in this parable?

I interpret being broken as acknowledging one's sin and turning to God in repentance.

I would agree that everyone should acknowledge their sin and turn to God in repentance.

Peace :)

[dougmusr]

I see the major points as being:

1. God sent a series of prophets to Israel
2. These prophets were not God's Son
3. God sent a final prophet to Israel
4. The final prophet was God's Son
5. The nation that receives the Kingdom of God from Israel is the Church.

I can see why you would interpret the passage differently. It indicates Christ would be the "last of all" prophets sent to Israel, not Muhammed. Whether the word Son is metaphorical or not, it is nontheless reserved for Christ in this passage as the final prophet. As to the 'rejected stone' the Bible clearly indicates if Ishmael was rejected, it was by God, not by the vinedressers (Israel).

Ge 17:19 Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

[جوري]

God sent his final prophet to all man kind... and stated he has no preference an Arab or European except for piety... Though Islam came upon Semitic people ... only 20% of today's Muslims are Semitic of Origin ... it truly is meant to not make a man feel better than another ... or lesser ... no distinction between blacks, whites, or yellows, man, woman or child.... I think I'd want to worship a God that doesn't discriminate and chooses a group over another....A God that has brought mercy to all man kind with details on every aspect of our lives... from work to charity to the way we treat others.......



you can see the additives and preservatives here "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."...... by the way Prophet JOB from your bible was from the Ishmael side of the family... if the covenant were to stay with Isaac... which according to your scriptures again was the "only son" why would God put Job through the tribulations of a prophet?.........peace

[dougmusr]

God sent his final prophet to all man kind... and stated he has no preference an Arab or European except for piety... Though Islam came upon Semitic people ... only 20% of today's Muslims are Semitic of Origin ... it truly is meant to not make a man feel better than another ... or lesser ... no distinction between blacks, whites, or yellows, man, woman or child.... I think I'd want to worship a God that doesn't discriminate and chooses a group over another....A God that has brought mercy to all man kind with details on every aspect of our lives... from work to charity to the way we treat

Christ was the final prophet, and His message was for all mankind. That is why He predicted that He would be crucified, and that His crucifixion would bring all mankind to Him. That is why His message says "whoever believes". The Gospel, or Good News, is that this message is for all mankind based upon faith.

Jn 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

you can see the additives and preservatives here "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."...... by the way Prophet JOB from your bible was from the Ishmael side of the family... if the covenant were to stay with Isaac... which according to your scriptures again was the "only son" why would God put Job through the tribulations of a prophet?.........peace

The fact that the covenant was established through Israel does not in any way indicate God was discriminatory any more than revealing the Quran to Muhammed would indicate God is discriminatory. God picks an individual as a prophet, but the message is for all mankind. Israel was to be a nation of priests, reconciling the world to God by disseminating the message to others. The fault then lies with those who heard the message, not the messenger. The same is true of us today. I participate in our church visitation ministry to share the message with others, and we have never modified the message based on the color of a persons skin.

I found that the message about forgiveness in the Hadiths is far different than what I see in posts on this board. The Hadiths impose a behavioral forgiveness criteria. In some cases, forgiveness is based on properly emulating Muhammed's prayer posture and avoiding accidental digestive emissions. They remind me of Christs message to the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

[جوري]

Christ was the final prophet, and His message was for all mankind. That is why He predicted that He .

so was he a "prophet" or a "God" or a "son" of a God?.... you are certainly entitled to your beliefs... to modern day I still see churces exclusively for blacks... some for whites... congrgations for a "republican" jesus for which members with an opposing view are ousted........ it is all very interesting....:)
you are not well versed on Islamic affairs or literature or the way of the prophet... you see it from the perspective of someone who is immersed in his own beliefs (cognitive conservatism) to you, Jesus was the final "prophet" or God or whatever... to which you are entitled.... the rest see it very differently... and it is a bonus to be able to review things less superficially if one were to be truly convinced... peace

[dougmusr]

you are not well versed on Islamic affairs or literature or the way of the prophet... you see it from the perspective of someone who is immersed in his own beliefs (cognitive conservatism) to you, Jesus was the final "prophet" or God or whatever... to which you are entitled.... the rest see it very differently... and it is a bonus to be able to review things less superficially if one were to be truly convinced... peace

I do not claim to be well versed in Islamic affairs. That is why I am here. Most of the postings on the site are superficial. It is difficult to go beyond the superficial when anything beyond it is considered an attack.

I don't think being immersed in ones beliefs is a bad thing, if it were then you and I share the same fault, as do most of the others on this site.

[جوري]

what exactly do you consider an "attack" I really believe Muslims have more reverance for Jesus than many christians... Muslims didn't use a w h o r e such as was done by caravaggio http://www.abcgallery.com/C/caravagg...avaggio30.html to depict the virgin Mary........ Muslims don't make an effigy of christ or market him for sale.... No muslims write books as such http://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Jesus-L...e=UTF8&s=books
that even christians can be proud of.... please don't venture into the territory of "insults" and "attacks" because if there is one brand of attacks that has government endorsment out... it is any against Muslims or their holy book or their prophets.....
thank you
peace

[جوري]

Question is... if you saw someone insulting a nun would you intervene?
would you have done something here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhIwLgNsfwI

[glo]

Question is... if you saw someone insulting a nun would you intervene?
would you have done something here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhIwLgNsfwI

Ambrosia,
thank you for that link. Not having TV, I don't get the chance to watch such documentaries (if indeed it was a TV documentary)
That's quite a worying experiment to watch!

But what is it you are trying to say?
That Christians don't care about Muslim women??? That non-Muslims don't care about Muslim women?
Has it occured to you that it was non-Muslims making this documentary to raise the issues concerned?

I am not convinced that these are Muslims issues, and not instead issues of general lethargy amongst the population. I don't think the situation would have been different, if the victim had been somebody else representing a minority - even a nun!

And for what it's worth, yes, I have intervened in a similar situation. It wasn't a case of somebody being verbally abused in such a manner, but some teenagers laughing behind a Muslimah's back.

Please don't stereotype us all. :(

Peace.

[جوري]

I am not sure why you deduced I am sterotyping? I was trying to assert that though Mr. Dougmusr... feels that we (Muslims) are attacking christianity, in fact it goes against our religious teachings to do so... how can we attack Jesus or Mary if they are put in highest regards in the Quran itself....I was also trying to assert that some christians do christianity more harm than any muslim and used art history's bad boy carrvaggio's "death of the virgin" painting as an example of that .... it is in fact a common practice that Muslims are sterotyped and their religion attacked conversly to christianity... there were sincere people in the video who defended the lady so how can I write something of "sterotyping" when there is clear evidence that some were disturbed by the event? moral of this story if one I am hoping to convey is one
this is comparitive religion with which we hope to establish differences between our faith and why or why not we believe so... but it is not a contest for superiority, or command on english... I think muslims here in general are reaching out trying to welcome new comers... contrast that to a republican forum I went to where there was nothing but a barrage of insults toward Islam and Muslims with total intolerance to any opinion that negated the common theme... can you imagine how disheartening that is? or how awful it is to not be able to browse the web without reading something utterly bigoted, and if you dare speak the reverse a whole gestapo comes to attack you? let's be fair please...

[Jayda]

almost every conversation about religion i read between christians and muslims convinces me that they hate each other...

that is a beautiful picture ambrosia...

[glo]

Peace, Ambrosia. :)
I didn't mean to attack or offend you. Please forgive me, if I have done so!

I am sure we are both striving for the same thing - common ground and mutual understanding between our faiths. Let's not give up so easily! :)

[جوري]

Peace, Ambrosia. :)
I didn't mean to attack or offend you. Please forgive me, if I have done so!

I am sure we are both striving for the same thing - common ground and mutual understanding between our faiths. Let's not give up so easily! :)

Have not given up... you being here is half the battle.. if only more people would learn by reaching out instead of establishing hate websites about "these people who don't integrate or get along with others" ... prophet mohammed (PBUH) used to have a Jewish neighbor who would leave him excrements by his door every day.... one day he didn't and the prophet was concerned that something might have happened to him... he went to visit him to make sure he was not ill.... the man was over come by this act of kindness and became Muslim... you can verify this hadith if you want... I believe we should all live by the prophet's example not be contentious and hateful... but that would be easier if the other party didn't paint us in every sickening light imaginable day and night (I promise I don't mean you by this claim) but just turn on the TV to the ten o'clock news... I believe the way many Muslims behave in defense as a direct consequence of the negative sterotyping that is on 24/7.... you'll find an array of people in every culture and in every religion... it is just people being people... I can hope we'd be the enlightened bunch in that ocean of humanity... :)

[glo]

Have not given up... :)

Neither have I! :D

Peace, sister. :)