Homosexuality being taught to 5yr olds

[sonz]

Parents sue over book about gay family

Parents claim school district violates their right to teach morals


*
BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- Ever since her 5-year-old brought home a book from kindergarten that depicted a gay family, Tonia Parker has felt that her parenting has been under attack in the only state that allows same-sex marriage.

She and her husband, David, did not want to discuss sexual orientation yet with their son, and were shocked that the book was included in a "diversity book bag" last year.


David Parker subsequently got arrested for refusing to leave a Lexington school after officials refused to meet his demand that he be notified when homosexuality was discussed in his son's class.


Now the Parkers and another couple have sued the school district in federal court, claiming Lexington officials violated their parental rights to teach morals to their own children.


The way they and other opponents of gay marriage see it, the 2003 ruling that cleared the way for same-sex weddings has emboldened gay rights advocates in the state of Massachusetts to push their views in schools and ignore those who feel homosexuality is immoral.


"In many parts of the United States, we could have presented our concerns and our objections, and it wouldn't have been a problem," Tonia Parker said.


Glenn Koocher, executive director of the Massachusetts Association of School Committees, said there is no pro-gay campaign in the schools, just isolated cases exaggerated by anti-gay marriage activists who suffer from "narcissistic activist personality disorder."


Carisa Cunningham, spokeswoman for the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders, said school curriculums have not changed, just the reaction to them by gay marriage opponents. "Maybe the impact of the law is that it has made people much more defensive and much more afraid," she said.
In Massachusetts, like most of the nation, there is no official education policy on when or how to discuss homosexuality in the classroom.


"It's done purposely to make sure local school boards reflect the values of the local district," said Martha Kempner, a spokeswoman for the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States.


Just 10 U.S. states have laws that deal with teaching sexual orientation, two of which require some teaching of it and eight of which put restrictions on how it's presented, according to New York-based SIECUS.


Massachusetts guidelines say only that teachers should define the different sexual orientations by the fifth grade. Each school district decides how to do that, and in the past year, Lexington has emerged as the center of debate.


Officials there say that since same-sex marriage is part of life in Massachusetts, it comes up naturally and that it's impossible to notify parents every time the issue is discussed.


"It certainly strengthens the argument that we need to teach about gay marriage because it's more of a reality for our kids," said Paul Ash, superintendent of schools in Lexington. "The children see married, gay couples."


An "opt out" provision in state law requires parental notification and the chance to remove their kids from the classroom if the curriculum "primarily involves human sexual education or human sexuality issues." But same-sex marriage comes up in current events classes and other forums where it's not the primary focus and, educators say, not subject to the "opt out" law.
Kris Mineau of the Massachusetts Family Institute, which opposes gay marriage, says educators are using the perceived loophole to bypass parents. Since the marriages began in May 2004, his organization has compiled about 20 reports from media and parents in towns from Medford to Newton that highlight what his group feels is inappropriate teaching of homosexuality.


Among recent incidents: Parents Joseph and Robin Wirthlin joined the Parkers in the federal suit after a second grade teacher in Lexington read to her class the fairy tale "King and King," which tells the story of two princes falling in love.


Last April, a sexually explicit pamphlet aimed at helping gay men avoid sexually transmitted diseases was distributed at a Brookline High School conference on gay and lesbian issues. School officials said the booklet was mistakenly displayed.


Brian Camenker of the Article 8 Alliance, which opposes gay marriage, said there's been a striking change in tone by gay marriage proponents since marriages started.


"It's like you're dealing with people from Mars, people who feel they're so superior they can use your child's mind as a sandbox for their own personal ideologies," he said.


But Eliza Byard of the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network said gay families exist everywhere -- the only thing different about Massachusetts is that same-sex marriage makes it much harder to push them aside. Public schools must acknowledge gay families, she said, even if it upsets parents who believe same-sex relationships are immoral.


"One of the basic realities of American life," she said, "is that all of us have to deal with beliefs we disagree with."


Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/05/ga....ap/index.html

[imaad_udeen]

*
BOSTON, Massachusetts

'Nuff said...

[wilberhum]

Is there a new game in town? Is its name “Call it what its not”?
Homosexuality being taught to 5yr olds. So do you think not denying homosexuality’s existence is being taught homosexuality? I think that is much more than a small distortion. But what is happening has no resemblance to teaching.
Tonia Parker thinks that a book that depicts a gay family is attacking her parenting. Boy, is that homophobic or what? And it was hid under the cover of “Diversity”? I wonder what other kinds of diversity we should hide.
Now they are sewing the school for “teaching morals”. How immoral can one get?
And they feel that the school “ignores those who feel homosexuality is immoral”. Well I guess that they want the “Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice Police” out if force.

This is a good article for all the homophobic idiots to rally under. Maybe we should just kill all the homos and get it over with.

Then our next task would be to figure out what is the next group we shouldn’t have to tolerate.

[imaad_udeen]

Is there a new game in town? Is its name “Call it what its not”?
Homosexuality being taught to 5yr olds. So do you think not denying homosexuality’s existence is being taught homosexuality? I think that is much more than a small distortion. But what is happening has no resemblance to teaching.
Tonia Parker thinks that a book that depicts a gay family is attacking her parenting. Boy, is that homophobic or what? And it was hid under the cover of “Diversity”? I wonder what other kinds of diversity we should hide.
Now they are sewing the school for “teaching morals”. How immoral can one get?
And they feel that the school “ignores those who feel homosexuality is immoral”. Well I guess that they want the “Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice Police” out if force.

This is a good article for all the homophobic idiots to rally under. Maybe we should just kill all the homos and get it over with.

Then our next task would be to figure out what is the next group we shouldn’t have to tolerate.

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating killing homosexuals, I'm certainly not. I am very big into civil liberties and personal freedoms. However, I don't think we should be teaching toddlers and very young children about this or any other sexual matters.

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[wilberhum]

imaad_udeen
So do you think not denying homosexuality’s existence is being taught homosexuality?
Wilber

[x Maz x]

When i read this title i was like wooooh...someones brainwashing people into thionking they are gays, I think obviously these feelings are wrong but they cant help how they feel the sin comes in when they take action! Allah guide them to whats right and bring them to learn about deen-ul-haaq WalaykumAsalaam x

[afriend]

Yes...well said Alpha!

Homosexuality is a terrible thing, although one must learn and acknowledge the existence...

But, the way these children will be taught is going to make them think about it more, and at such an early age, children will incline towards it....just like they do to violence etc.

[wilberhum]

Well I surly agree that we should never let an impressionable young child see any thing that you conceder “not normal”, not. We shouldn’t let them see “Desert Snow” either.
Maybe while they are impressionable would be a good time to teach them tolerance.

[afriend]

Obviously, there must still be tollerance....No doubt about it....

[wilberhum]

You can teach your brand of morality and your beliefs about the Quran at home. And you should.
But in the US religious indoctrination is not to be part of public education.
I strongly feel that we need to teach tolerance and that is surly not what the article was advocating.

[Ghazi]

Salaam

Subhanallah, I wouldn't want my children to learn about this from kufar, they wouldn't see it from an islamic perspective, homosexuality is a major sin thats what I want the future islamic youth to know.

[j4763]

I am not for gays (imo the reason why we have the bits we have says it all). And wouldn't like my children being taught it at school at such a young age, in fact 5 year olds shouldn't be taught anything to do with love/sex at such a young age anyway (imo).

[imaad_udeen]

imaad_udeen
So do you think not denying homosexuality’s existence is being taught homosexuality?
Wilber

I don't think the state should have the right to teach such subjects to children. This should be a family matter. If this were taught to my young son I would *flip* and consider taking action of some kind.

[Muslim Soldier]

those **** how dare they!

[ISDhillon]

This is a good thing cos not all religions believe it to be a sin therefore people need to know why there are the way they are from an equal footing it will allow more openness and honesty in society, honesty is the first step.:)

[Trumble]

those **** how dare they!

How dare they what? As far as the school authorities are concerned this is simply not a "moral" issue. To them it is no more "immoral" to be homosexual rather than straight than it is to be black rather than white. An opinion I share, incidently, although I am fully aware that it will not be shared by most muslims or some Christians. I say "most" as, yes.. shock, horror.., there are many gay muslims. They may, or may not, suppress their sexual instincts but that doesn't change the fact they exist no matter how much some of you might wish they didn't.

The school is not "teaching homosexuality", just acknowledging that family structures exist that may contain two natural parents, one, or neither (think of adoption), of one or both sexes. The world (or parts of it) as it is, not what little Johnny's parents might wish it was. That, IMHO, is their duty as educators. If the child's parents wish to teach him that homosexuality is 'wrong', or 'evil' in line with their own religious beliefs, or even simple prejudices, they are perfectly entitled to do so. If they are still not happy, they could always send him to another school.

[Muslim Soldier]

Wether it is right or wrong is not the issue. 5 year olds are just too young.
and it is wrong.

[R_Mujahed]

Right or Wrong? It is wrong full stop (i.e period, .) :)

7:80 We also (sent) LUT: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

11:77 When Our messengers came to LUT, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: "This is a distressful day."

11:81 (The Messengers) said: "O LUT! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?"

11:89 "And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih, nor are the people of LUT far off from you!

15:61 At length when the messengers arrived among the adherents of LUT,

15:68 LUT said: "These are my guests: disgrace me not:

21:74 And to LUT, too, We gave Judgment and Knowledge, and We saved him from the town which practised abominations: truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.

26:161 Behold, their brother LUT said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

27:54 (We also sent) LUT (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?

27:56 But his people gave no other answer but this: they said, "Drive out the followers of LUT from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"

29:28 And (remember) LUT: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.

54:34 We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except LUT's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,-

11:82 When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,-

15:74 And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay.

Could it be said any better? (you're not supposed to answer!)

[wilberhum]

It is amassing what you can get with a headline. If anyone would read the original post with an open mind, you would see that the content does not support the headline. Read it again folks. Look for any supporting evidence that “Homosexuality is being taught”. This is nothing more than a sucker line to promote an anti gay agenda, and you just swallowed it hook line and sinker. Shame on you.
Wilber

[HeiGou]

How dare they what? As far as the school authorities are concerned this is simply not a "moral" issue. To them it is no more "immoral" to be homosexual rather than straight than it is to be black rather than white.

Actually school authorities know very well it is more complex than that. To them, chances are given the views of the majority of Americans, it is simply not the case that the two are equivalent. Certainly to the parents it is unlikely to be the case. And even if they think that homosexuality is not a sin, teaching children values that their parents almost certain oppose is very much a moral issue and they must know that. It is outrageous to use tax money taken from parents to teach moral values they find obhorrent.

[imaad_udeen]

It is amassing what you can get with a headline. If anyone would read the original post with an open mind, you would see that the content does not support the headline. Read it again folks. Look for any supporting evidence that “Homosexuality is being taught”. This is nothing more than a sucker line to promote an anti gay agenda, and you just swallowed it hook line and sinker. Shame on you.
Wilber

From the article:

" Ever since her 5-year-old brought home a book from kindergarten that depicted a gay family"

Do you really think they just gave the kids a book without some explanation of why a family has two dads or two moms?

[wilberhum]

If you think "depicted a gay family' is teaching, then iI guess we just use different dictionaries.
Wilber

[Trumble]

If you think "depicted a gay family' is teaching, then iI guess we just use different dictionaries.
Wilber

Exactly.

They are not "teaching children values", they are teaching them facts. They are NOT teaching values or ethics, or claiming in any way that such 'family' units are "right" or "wrong", or even less preferable. They are telling the kids such units exist - which they do, and maybe helping those kids who have only one parent, or maybe gay 'parents', or adopted parents, stop feeling like freaks.

[imaad_udeen]

If you think "depicted a gay family' is teaching, then iI guess we just use different dictionaries.
Wilber

Definition of Teach:

To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.
To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.
To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.
To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.
To advocate or preach: teaches racial and religious tolerance.
To carry on instruction on a regular basis in: taught high school for many years.

The child was 5 years old. 5 year olds do not need to be given books which depict homosexual relationships. (note, not homosexual sex, but the relationship, which could offend many of the childrens parents.)

The teachers cannot decide on their own if such a subject is to be taught to the children under their care. This is a subject best left to the parents.

[imaad_udeen]

Exactly.

They are not "teaching children values", they are teaching them facts. They are NOT teaching values or ethics, or claiming in any way that such 'family' units are "right" or "wrong", or even less preferable. They are telling the kids such units exist - which they do, and maybe helping those kids who have only one parent, or maybe gay 'parents', or adopted parents, stop feeling like freaks.

Five Years Old.

Rape exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Murder exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Transvestites exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

People get sex changes, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Those are some things to think about. If we are going to cross this line, why not go all the way?

[wilberhum]

When I mind closes, does it make a sound?

The mind is like a parachute, it works best when open.

I don’t advocate practice, I advocate tolerance. And that is not what I see.

[Ghazi]

When I mind closes, does it make a sound?

The mind is like a parachute, it works best when open.

I don’t advocate practice, I advocate tolerance. And that is not what I see.

Salaam

Tolerance, I agree to an extent, for example I won't hate a gay person I'd hate the action.

[imaad_udeen]

When I mind closes, does it make a sound?

The mind is like a parachute, it works best when open.

I don’t advocate practice, I advocate tolerance. And that is not what I see.

This has nothing to do with tolerance. It is about indoctrinating young children with a certain social agenda. In this case it is advocating same sex families. Just because they exist does not make them right.

[wilberhum]

When I mind closes, does it make a sound?

[MAD] I'm off this thread.[/MAD]

[czgibson]

Greetings,

First: I agree with those who say that educational material about any kind of sexuality is something that should be taught when children are above five years old. At what age such education should begin, I don't know - I'm certain that five is too young though.

Second: When sex education does begin, I don't think there's anything wrong with children being told that gay couples exist.

Third: In response to people who say that sex education is the responsibility of parents, the fact is that (at least where I come from) most parents are too embarrassed to bring up the subject with their kids, and by the time they do, the kids usually know all about it anyway. These are some of the reasons why sex education is on school curricula.

Peace

[Paul Williams]

What you need to understand, Wilbur, is that in the Qur'an homosexuality has very explicitly been forbidden. You also need to understand that muslims believe in what the Quran says as the truth. You should also realise that if a child grows up believing homosexuality is normal and not against Allahs command, his religion has effectively been compromised.

Salam,
I just wanted to say how much i agree with what you say, spot on!

Paul

[ISDhillon]

Greetings,

First: I agree with those who say that educational material about any kind of sexuality is something that should be taught when children are above five years old. At what age such education should begin, I don't know - I'm certain that five is too young though.

Second: When sex education does begin, I don't think there's anything wrong with children being told that gay couples exist.

Third: In response to people who say that sex education is the responsibility of parents, the fact is that (at least where I come from) most parents are too embarrassed to bring up the subject with their kids, and by the time they do, the kids usually know all about it anyway. These are some of the reasons why sex education is on school curricula.

well said I want to go further and say that children aswell as being taught heterosexual relationships and contraception they need to be taught the cause for aids etc but not that homosexuality causes aids, but that sodomy can be the cause of it so sodomy should be taught to children, I see no problem with this, if parents become sensitive to anything sexual children will venture more into the forbidden, let nothing be forbidden and talk about sex as you would apples and oranges and let it be just a life thing rather than a taboo, which we all know are meant to be indulged in. If this were to happen then the objective disorder would end in homos too cos thats what education does, can you tell who's a homo all the time?, we can only have a smoothly flowing society if everyone is able to "be" from word go, people with religious views keep them in your homes same goes for creationism and all the other stuff people want to pollute the curriculum with.

ISDhillon

[Imam786]

eww thats sick they dont need to teach that stuff in school....enough is enough..:heated:

[Abdullah4ever]

:sl:

This is completlty sick, abo----ly sick. May allah guide them.Ameen.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

people with religious views keep them in your homes same goes for creationism and all the other stuff people want to pollute the curriculum with.

I could not agree more. Religious indoctrination occurring in schools is an idea that I find absolutely repellent. It's something that kids can be taught at home if that is their parents' wish, but at school? No way.

Peace

[Trumble]

Five Years Old.

Rape exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Murder exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Transvestites exists, so should we teach five year olds about that?

People get sex changes, so should we teach five year olds about that?

Those are some things to think about. If we are going to cross this line, why not go all the way?

Firstly what is at issue here is not "homosexual relationships", which imply sexual activity. As far as am aware, that is not depicted. To the child (as opposed to the parents) it is not even implied. It is merely people of the same sex living together and fulfilling what would normally be seen as parental roles.

With regard to the examples you give, I would argue that within their own terms of reference we do teach them about rape and murder, in the interests of their safety. You agree parents should teach their child never to accept gifts or go with strangers (except the police, or similar) if they become lost because "some people will do bad things to you" or similar? That is a concept they can grasp, and more would not be understood, or would just frighten unecessarily if it was. As to transvesticism and sex changes, again they are something a child would find difficult to understand, although it is something that should probably be attempted at least partially if the child knew either a transvestite or someone in the process of a sex change. Understanding issues apart I see no real reason to to mention those things other than prejudice.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

So effectively that means religion only exists in the home?

Religion should exist wherever people want it, except for the public education system. Assuming that children can make up their minds about what religion to follow, and therefore having Catholic schools or Muslim schools etc., is just as crazy as setting up schools favouring a particular political party and expecting kids to be able to make those decisions too. Of course, with a system of faith schools in place, children don't even have the chance to make up their own minds, since they are effectively indoctrinated from such a young age.

If a child at an impressionable young age is shown images that depict a gay family as normal and then later in life he hears that homosexuality is against his religion, the fact that it has been shoved into his mentality at an early age that homosexuality is ok the now grown up child would be more open to question his religion. BUT no muslim or even Christian would ever want that to happen to their child because they believe that it is wrong, which is ultimately due to the fact that they believe in their religion.

What is wrong with questioning your religion? You don't want to have blind faith, do you?

Certainly I believe that homosexuality has only just, for that last 15 years or so begun to be widely accepted as normal.

Have you ever heard of the Ancient Greeks? Homosexuality was a fundamental part of their culture.

Do you not think that the media plays any role in this? Where say people which hold a minority view are somehow able to influence a majority into accepting whatever they want?

Victimless "crimes" are all becoming more acceptable.

How does the idea that gay people exist actually upset or threaten you in any way?

Peace

[imaad_udeen]

Firstly what is at issue here is not "homosexual relationships", which imply sexual activity. As far as am aware, that is not depicted. To the child (as opposed to the parents) it is not even implied. It is merely people of the same sex living together and fulfilling what would normally be seen as parental roles.

With regard to the examples you give, I would argue that within their own terms of reference we do teach them about rape and murder, in the interests of their safety. You agree parents should teach their child never to accept gifts or go with strangers (except the police, or similar) if they become lost because "some people will do bad things to you" or similar? That is a concept they can grasp, and more would not be understood, or would just frighten unecessarily if it was. As to transvesticism and sex changes, again they are something a child would find difficult to understand, although it is something that should probably be attempted at least partially if the child knew either a transvestite or someone in the process of a sex change. Understanding issues apart I see no real reason to to mention those things other than prejudice.

But at the age of five?

Come on, thats absurd.

[Trumble]

But at the age of five?

Come on, thats absurd.

Why? Do you have children yourself? They are perfectly capable of understanding such things at that age as long as you phrase it in terms they can understand

Take a sex change. Let's assume the child's uncle, say, is on the path to 'gender re-assignment surgery', or whatever they call it these days. Somehow, you have to explain what is happening - the child will demand that you do. The little mite can hardly not notice that his uncle has started wearing a dress!! So you explain that "Uncle was made a boy, but should really have been a girl, and staying a boy makes him unhappy. So the nice doctors are helping him be a girl, so he will be happy again".. or words to that effect. They could understand that.. and the answer would be enough to avoid considerable confusion.

Or take a far more frequent occurence, divorce. You HAVE to explain, but to the kid the idea of marriage doesn't mean much, let alone divorce.. so you just explain it in a way they will understand. You can probably think of a few ways of doing that yourself.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting all children should get a lecture on sex changes or transvesticism! If the need should arise though, its best met head on rather than trying to ignore it.

[imaad_udeen]

Why? Do you have children yourself? They are perfectly capable of understanding such things at that age as long as you phrase it in terms they can understand

Take a sex change. Let's assume the child's uncle, say, is on the path to 'gender re-assignment surgery', or whatever they call it these days. Somehow, you have to explain what is happening - the child will demand that you do. The little mite can hardly not notice that his uncle has started wearing a dress!! So you explain that "Uncle was made a boy, but should really have been a girl, and staying a boy makes him unhappy. So the nice doctors are helping him be a girl, so he will be happy again".. or words to that effect. They could understand that.. and the answer would be enough to avoid considerable confusion.

Or take a far more frequent occurence, divorce. You HAVE to explain, but to the kid the idea of marriage doesn't mean much, let alone divorce.. so you just explain it in a way they will understand. You can probably think of a few ways of doing that yourself.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting all children should get a lecture on sex changes or transvesticism! If the need should arise though, its best met head on rather than trying to ignore it.

I do have a child of that age and it is absurd to think about talking about these issues with him. I want him to enjoy his time at this age. I want him to be innocent for a while. He has plenty of time in the future to learn of these things when he can better understand certain dynamics.

I think it is absurd what this school did and I would be beside myself with rage if someone tried to push this on my son.

[NJUSA]

Well, if 5 yr olds are indeed too young to learn about adult sex and relationships, then perhaps all books depicting families of any kind should be banned, as if they are too young to learn about why Heather has two mommies, then they are too young to learn why Hannah has a mommy and a daddy.

[imaad_udeen]

Well, if 5 yr olds are indeed too young to learn about adult sex and relationships, then perhaps all books depicting families of any kind should be banned, as if they are too young to learn about why Heather has two mommies, then they are too young to learn why Hannah has a mommy and a daddy.

:heated:

The point is, it is not the schools place to teach such things to five year olds, especially without parental consent.

[R_Mujahed]

No mind has closed!... Just laying my foundations for my points... saying what I said prev. I would like to continue and say after saying that it is wrong that it should not be taught at all, neither to a 5 year old nor a 50 year old full stop plus I cannot afford to close my mind cause I lost the key and I cannot find the spare!

[czgibson]

Greetings Alpha Dude,

I explicitly stated in my last point to look at it from our point of view, if someone truly believed their religion to be true, then is it not natural that they would want their children to follow the same path?

If someone claimed to be a follower of a certain faith and wanted his child to choose his own religion, would it not seem as though he never believed in his religion to be correct in the first place?

I think that assuming a child will follow your religion is wrong. Why not let them make up their own minds, rather than indoctrinating them from birth? Of course, people are free to tell their children what they want about religion at home, but I can't see any justification for it at school. Schools are for education, not brainwashing.

See above.

That doesn't really answer my question. What is wrong with questioning your religion?

I never said in any of my posts that their existance threatens me, you are jumping to false conclusions.

I never stated this either. I was asking a question.

But seeing as you mentioned it, the people I do not find threatening or have a problem with, the act is what troubles me.

Well, that's a start, I suppose. For myself, I find the idea of gay sex physically repulsive, but I don't think it's a sin at all.

Why do you think it's a sin? Do you have any reason besides "Allah says so"?

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings R Mujahed,

I would like to continue and say after saying that it is wrong that it should not be taught at all, neither to a 5 year old nor a 50 year old full stop

Do you think that the existence of gay couples should be kept a secret from the entire population?

Peace

[Ghazi]

Greetings R Mujahed,


Do you think that the existence of gay couples should be kept a secret from the entire population?

Peace

Salaam

No but it shouldn't be forced fed to people in the media and not taught to 5 year olds.

[R_Mujahed]

Greetings R Mujahed,


Do you think that the existence of gay couples should be kept a secret from the entire population?

Peace

No I do not! I think it should be wiped out!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

No but it shouldn't be forced fed to people in the media

I don't believe that this is currently happening.

and not taught to 5 year olds.

I basically agree with you here - although if a five year old starts asking questions about it, the parents should be able to explain.

No I do not! I think it should be wiped out!

That sounds pretty worrying. How do you think this should happen?

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings Alpha Dude,

Thank you for that strong and clear statement of your views. :)

With all due respect, why do keep insisting on rephrasing the same redundant question?

I suppose because I believe that children should be free to decide these things for themselves.

See the similarities between this question and the one you posed now?

Well, there are two different questions here:

1. Why not let children make up their own minds?

2. What's wrong with questioning your religion?

You've answered the first in a way that is acceptable to you; I don't think you've answered the second.

It all boils down to the fact that as muslims our sole purpose is to worship Allah. Let me write that again, with capital letters and bold font so that you do not miss it - as it is an important fact that you must understand in order to respect our beliefs.

I do respect your beliefs. I just don't agree with them, that's all.

Having read this statement, tell me do you honestly think that a person who has submitted to the will of Allah in it's entirety and has chosen to listen to his commands as laid out by the Quran, would he let, say a son of his whom he dearly loves get lead astray from the correct path?

I accept that believers are sincere about their beliefs. However, these are beliefs we are talking about. If a Muslim strongly believes that Islam is the correct way, and that truth stands out clearly from error, then surely the Muslim parent has nothing to worry about, and their child will naturally adopt Islam through their own decision.

I can't say that he would. He would only do so if he did'nt have faith in his religion to begin with!

I think this paranoia shows uncertainty of faith, rather than conviction.

"Brainwashing"? I can't believe you wrote that statement.
It is quite obvious that you consider all religions as rubbish, and thus used such a harsh term against them. But did you have to?

I'm afraid so. I apologise if you find my use of this word offensive - that is not my intention.

This is an issue that I feel strongly about, as a teacher in the public education system, and as someone who endured what I can only describe as brainwashing at a Catholic school from the age of nine.

Getting familiar with matters of theology is something that requires careful consideration, and this cannot be expected of a young child. I've seen people (some on this forum, in fact) who have decided on their religion, and who only later discover many of the things that they are expected to believe. This is why I made the comparison to joining a political party. I believe that a similar level of complexity is involved.

I agree though, schools should not be used as a platform to brainwash children. Children should not be shown pictures of gay families, which effectively show homosexuality as normal.

What does the word 'normal' mean?

These pictures that you speak of, as far as I know, make no moral pronouncement on gay families. They simply attest to the fact that such families exist. Do you think that this information should be withheld from children?

(I'll restate at this point that while I disagree with sex education being given to five-year olds, unless family circumstances dictate, I do not disagree in principle with children older than that being educated about the existence of gay people.)

Just picture it, having seen such a thing a child leaves school with the impression that he has to make a choice, a choice later on in his life that he can either be gay or can have a female partner. Before you comment on the implausibility of this scenario, remember that this is a young child we are talking about - a child that probably does'nt like girls because they have "cooties" :p .

As to whether it's a choice, the jury is still out on that. Some people do seem to have 'natural' homosexual inclinations, though.

The fact also that he gained this impression in school of all places, a place that is traditionaly associated with the gaining of knowledge plays a big role. Do you not see how this can be considered brainwashing?

No, as long as no moral pronouncement is given. The schools are not saying "this is a good thing; this is the way you should be", they are simply acknowledging and explaining that gay people exist. Does this not count as knowledge for some reason?

You only think like this because you do not believe in a religion. That is why this whole issue is perplexing for you. In one of your previous posts you likened religion to a political party, again born out of the fact that you do not believe in a religion.

I don't think so. I've been told that Muslims are encouraged to examine their religion with logical rigour, and to make sure that it makes absolute sense for them. I have to say, this emphasis on logic and rationality is one of the things I most admire in Islam.

Have I been misled?

Having said that, I assume that you would probably hold the opinon that I have been indoctrinated at an early age and that is the reason I hold the view that I do, no?

I don't know. For all I know you could be a revert - you may have been brought up in another way of life.

But I would say that you never were taught the islamic religion as a child therefore you do not understand the truth.

I wasn't brought up in it, no, but I first learnt about Islam when I was about ten or eleven. Being brought up as a Catholic, I do know how a religious upbringing works, though.

Call me pedantic, but I find it weird that you use the word "sin" - with you being an athiest. :okay:

Well spotted! A remnant of my upbringing, perhaps. It's often used in secular society as a synonym for 'morally wrong', and that's the sense in which I intended it.

In short, yes, it is a sin because Allah says so ;).

Quite so. As a Muslim I assume that's all the justification you need.

But seriously, this question is just another example of the fact that you do not understand the perspective of a believer.

Again, quite so. It's not possible for me to enter the mind of a believer and experience it. This makes religious discussions far from straightforward. I can at least attempt to understand the thinking behind your views though, I hope.

The Quran tells us that it is not permissable to indulge in homosexual acts. To me this implies that the individual has the choice whether to do such a thing.

Perhaps. To me this implies that the author of the Qur'an acknowledges the existence of homosexual acts, and has then decided where they fit on his moral scale. It is the justification for that decision that I'm curious about.

Which brings me to my next point, muslims consider this world a test. Therefore such homosexual thoughts are to be considered a test from Allah, to see whether an individual would succumb to the thought in question, or choose to achieve the pleasure of Allah by refraining from such practices.

On one view, it appears that some people have homosexual urges, while others don't. So the people who do have them will be tested more in this area than those who don't. Is this the standard Muslim understanding of how Allah operates, that different tests will be given to different people?

In any case, I don't buy into the whole "we were born this way" defence. If that was the case then why not apply the same rules when considering paedophiles?... surely they were just "born that way"

As I've said, the jury is still out on this one.

But of course you won't, because it is "wrong", the question is why is it considered wrong. Perhaps it is against nature, owing to the fact that they are not physically or mentally mature enough right?

I believe paedophilia is wrong for that reason, yes.

Then why can't people say the same for homosexuals (the fact that it is unnatural)?

Let me guess, you would probably be of the opinion that practicing homosexuality is ok as long as the individuals are both over the legal age and consenting? But this does not change the fact that a person has the choice to do so or not.

I don't think there's a moral equivalence here. You say that people still have a choice in both cases, but in the case of paedophilia, the child involved surely isn't adequately prepared to make that choice, no?

If people were just born that way, where in the world do bisexual's come from?

On a slightly different view from the one I mentioned above, all people are naturally bisexual, with an inclination one way or the other. I'm not sure about this myself, but I just thought I'd mention it. Bisexuality was the norm in Ancient Greece, for example.

Or the situations where people go through a "phase" usually at some point in their teenage lives?

A mystery, possibly related to the bisexual view I just mentioned.

Or the fact that sailor ships and prisons are rife with homosexuality?

This one, I think, can be explained quite simply. Humans have a natural desire for sex, and in places occupied by one sex only, that natural urge will express itself in homosexuality. In fact, this phenomenon is an argument in favour of the 'all humans are bisexual' view.

All these questions raise the fact that homosexuality is a choice that has been made by the individual. Therefore it is not natural.

I don't think it's that clear cut. In a prison, if two male prisoners decide to have sex with each other, is that behaviour due to their own choice or due to their situation?

Clearly we disagree on this question; however, I'm sure there is a fruitful discussion to be had through examining each other's views and the reasons for them.

Peace

[NJUSA]

If I am blessed with children, I hope that I can remember that I can't shield them from something as ubiquitous as family life, and teach them about family life, in age appropriate ways. For five year olds, this would include things like showing them that families involve adults deciding to share their lives and raise children. Later on, the details of romance and yes, sex, should come into play, but trying to pretend that romantic love and marriage don't exist just doesn't work. Perhaps we are trying to conceal these things from ourselves, to protect us from having to answer questions that would remind us that children don't stay children forever. Then whose interests are we acting to protect? Certainly, not those of the children.

[NJUSA]

If people were just born that way, where in the world do bisexual's come from? Or the situations where people go through a "phase" usually at some point in their teenage lives? Or the fact that sailor ships and prisons are rife with homosexuality? All these questions raise the fact that homosexuality is a choice that has been made by the individual. Therefore it is not natural.

Riddle me this, Alpha Dude:
Which is your dominant hand, and at what age did you decide upon using your dominant hand? Now before you say that this is not an appropriate analogy, note that in Western cultures, left-handedness was seen as highly undesirable, and lefties (somewhat less than 10% of the population) were seen as deviant. Lefties were forced to use their right hands, sometimes under threat of severe punishment. My grandmother is ambidextrous to this day, due to attempts to make her right-handed (alhamdulillah, few ill effects). The social pressure forced lefties to stay "closeted" as it were. It is known that human sexuality can be fluid, and that many people go through periods of experimentation. One has a dominant hand, but the mere use of the other hand does not change the status of the dominant hand. I type, play piano, and do many other tasks with both hands, and for some tasks, I use my left hand alone. This does not make me ambidextrous, or a leftie; I'm right-handed.
About your justification of condemning homosexuality because "Allah says so."
You are free to believe that if you wish, but people said the same kinds of things about the evils of the left-handed, the responsiblity to keep black people enslaved, the dangers of educating women beyond the most basic levels, and other ideas now relegated to the dustbin of history. Just thought you should know.

[Trumble]

Humans have a natural desire for sex, and in places occupied by one sex only, that natural urge will express itself in homosexuality. In fact, this phenomenon is an argument in favour of the 'all humans are bisexual' view.

Indeed. You can't think of sexual orientation as a black and white thing, but more of a sliding scale. An environment like prison, with its combination of psychological stress and the absence of partners of the preferred gender, and hence intense sexual frustration (for heterosexuals, anyway) can cause that scale to shift somewhat. Although such an environment doesn't exist, if you took a gay man with a high psychological requirement for sex and put him in an environment with only women for company the reverse process would probably also occur. In both cases the shift is likely to only be temporary.

I don't think it's that clear cut. In a prison, if two male prisoners decide to have sex with each other, is that behaviour due to their own choice or due to their situation?

Two 'deciding' is less common than rape in prisons, although the force used is as likely to be psychological as physical. For one at least, choice has little to do with it.

[Noora_z3]

:sl:


You should know that the act of homosexuality is explicitly forbidden in the Quran. Even if an individual was to have these tendencies, it should be seen as a test for the believer. They should stick with being straight and not give into temptations. That is a key word that, temptation.

:w:

Thats right sis Njus, u really need to understand Islam's position in this matter.

[firdaw]

What i can't believe that five years are being that about homosexuality. There just babys grown up that shouldn't even be thaught about love or sex or anything they should be thought the ABC's

[R_Mujahed]

Hey some survey I saw on my rogers.yahoo homepage said that some 9 out of 10 americans do not know where Iraq is on the map... and some 6 out of 10 do not even now where NY is on the map... there was another figure (which was high) that I cannot remember as well!

But every one should be taught about ****sexuality... for crying out loud (not to loud) teach them the essentials first and then teach them that ****sexualit is wrong

[czgibson]

Greetings R Mujahed,

You're quite right about the alarming gaps in the knowledge of the American public, and you've made your views clear on homosexuality. I'd like to ask you to provide as many reasons as you can for why you think homosexuality is wrong. I'm guessing the first reaon will be "because Allah says so". That's fair enough, of course. What other reasons do you have for believing that it's wrong? How would you convince someone who doesn't believe in god that it's wrong?

Peace

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum and Greetings,

Whether these 5-year olds are taught about homosexuality or not, I hope they are taught in the correct way. Even though, by all means, I think they are too young to learn about this, it is something they will grow up in society seeing, so it shouldn't be stressed so much as I think it probably isn't.

Homosexuality is a mental disorder, so I don't think it would promote them to becoming homosexuals, and even so as muslims we need to know about homosexuality because it is spoken of in the Holy Qu'ran, e.g. the people of Lut.

Most likely the reactions you would get out of these kids is "ewwwww" lol

What they are being taught exactly is the more important issue, how specific they are getting into this topic etc.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[NJUSA]

The idea of homosexuality as a mental disorder was abandoned decades ago, along with the idea that women "ask" to be raped. Goodness. I do believe, with all my heart, that the teachings of the Qur'an are true. What I don't believe is what people say about the Qur'an. My Lord is not a petty tribal god, my Lord does not participate in zulm, everything my Lord has made is excellent, and that includes those he has made differently from others. My Lord asks that I strive to be conscious of God at all times, that I work continuously for a better world, and for the edification of my own soul. My Lord does not ask that I despise another human being for falling in love, and spending his or her life with a beloved. Islam is not a faith that requires monasticism of its followers, nor does it require hatred of any human being. We are the children of Adam. When will we behave like the siblings that we are?

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

The idea of homosexuality as a mental disorder was abandoned decades ago

really?? i was taught that it was a disorder last year in psych class..allahu a'lem, I guess I'll do some research inshallah

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Aalikum

You're right mashallah
but i did find this to be interesting:

Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse. This paper highlights some new and significant considerations that reflect on the question of those mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

subhanallah

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[czgibson]

Greetings,

really?? i was taught that it was a disorder last year in psych class.

Really? Where are you being educated?

Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse. This paper highlights some new and significant considerations that reflect on the question of those mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

Do you think the pressures of society's attitude to homosexuals could be responsible for these symptoms?

Peace

[NJUSA]

Recent studies show homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse. This paper highlights some new and significant considerations that reflect on the question of those mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

I'd like to see some source info on this, please. Also, whatever the causes, I'll bet a milkshake that societal pressures are at least involved.

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum and greetings,

Really? Where are you being educated?

U.S., I think its the teacher though, I'm going to have a chat with her on monday...inshallah

Do you think the pressures of society's attitude to homosexuals could be responsible for these symptoms?

yea, I think somewhat

I'd like to see some source info on this, please. Also, whatever the causes, I'll bet a milkshake that societal pressures are at least involved.

sure:
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'd like to see some source info on this, please. Also, whatever the causes, I'll bet a milkshake that societal pressures are at least involved.

Agreed.

Here's the source: http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

As you can see, it's clearly an anti-gay website.

Peace

[Noora_z3]

The idea of homosexuality as a mental disorder was abandoned decades ago,

By whom?

[NJUSA]

Hmm... I scanned that paper, and the one thing that struck me is the lack of context. There doesn't seem to be evidence of control groups in the studies, and like we noted, no accounting for societal pressures. One might see similar levels of mental disorders in people who are similarly oppressed, e.g. ethnic minorities and women. In fact, percentages for certain disorders are higher than the norm for oppressed minorities and women. The article doesn't discuss the unhealthy expressions of heterosexuality, which would at least provide context, and may point to a possibility that people of all sexual orientations express sexual disorders in similar ways. Back to the topic of the thread: I find it amusing that parents think that they can keep this kind of stuff from their kids for longer than it takes to cut the umbilical cord. Let's face it: their eyes and ears are theirs, and unless you want to keep them in the house and pull down the shades until they are 30, they will see and hear things besides Barney. (Talk about abominations!)

[Noora_z3]

Greetings,


Agreed.

Here's the source: http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html

As you can see, it's clearly an anti-gay website.

Peace

Well, one is either anti-gay or pro-guy, if the website opposes homosextuality then its anti-, that just describes it position, it doesnt make it less relaible.

[czgibson]

Greetings Noora z3,

The idea of homosexuality as a mental disorder was abandoned decades ago,

By whom?

Do you think it's a mental disorder?

Well, one is either anti-gay or pro-guy, if the website opposes homosextuality then its anti-, that just describes it position, it doesnt make it less relaible.

It does, actually. It purports to be a scientific website, but any organisation with a clear bias has effectively given up its claim to objective scientific legitimacy.

Peace

[*charisma*]

Greetings,

so then people actually choose to be homosexual?? There has to be some kind of mental deficiency, otherwise people wouldn't try to stray from becoming homosexuals, it's a feeling they can't control. Although, some do choose to "experiment" it.

peace

[NJUSA]

I sent this in a private message to charisma, but I guess I'll have to repeat it: In 1973, the APA removed homosexuality from the DSM, its listing of psychiatric disorders. This is now the mainstream view, there are obviously a few holdouts, but they have the same collegial esteem as Flat Earthers have among geologists. And the idea of homosexuality as a choice has been abadoned as well. See my post on handedness.

[Noora_z3]

Greetings Noora z3,



Do you think it's a mental disorder?


Peace

I frankly dont have a definit answer. I can say its an abnoramlity, does it reside in the mind? I guess it does...so can it be called mental disorder?!..i still cant say.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
The discussion has digressed from the original issue and has moved on the general issue of homosexuality which has already been discussed ad nauseum in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...being-gay.html
The above thread includes the discussion on
-the reasons why homosexuality is rejected from perspectives natural, moral, medical, societal, spiritual, etc.
-the Islamic position on homosexuality
-the Islamic penal law for homosexual acts

Please see the above thread.
:w:

:threadclo