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dishdash
05-16-2006, 02:35 PM
Is the position that a woman, Moslem or not, who does not wear hijaab, is eligible for rape, a valid one?
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Ghazi
05-16-2006, 02:38 PM
:sl:

If the women doesn't dress modestly she'll put here self at risk
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-16-2006, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Is the position that a woman, Moslem or not, who does not wear hijaab, is eligible for rape, a valid one?

subhanallah, where does this false notion come from?

if i walk through a park at night where muggers lurk is it my sin if i am robbed or theirs?

it is clearly their sin for doing the robbery, not mine for walking there. you could argue i was foolish, but the sin is theirs not mine.

in the same way, a woman dressed inappropiately is perhaps taking a greater risk than otherwise but her sin is not dressing properly, men still have their own duty to keep their trousers on.

uring caution upon a woman to help protect herself by dressing modestly is not the same as blaming her if she is attacked if she is not dressed modestly.

wa alaykumus salaam,
Daw'ud
Reply

NahidSarvy
05-16-2006, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
If the women doesn't dress modestly she'll put here self at risk
That is ridiculous. A hijab isn't protection. Someone who wants to rape someone does so for desire to harm women, not have sex. It's about dominance, not desire.

Wearing a hijab isn't going to save anyone from rape.
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Muslim Soldier
05-16-2006, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

in the same way, a woman dressed inappropiately is perhaps taking a greater risk than otherwise but her sin is not dressing properly, men still have their own duty to keep their trousers on.
It is her sin because it is not in accordance with the Hijab of Islam.
Therefore both the rapist and the woman (not dressed well) are sinful
Reply

Aly
05-16-2006, 03:15 PM
Check documentry about hijab

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...991535&q=hijab
Reply

Muslim Soldier
05-16-2006, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That is ridiculous. A hijab isn't protection. Someone who wants to rape someone does so for desire to harm women, not have sex. It's about dominance, not desire.

Wearing a hijab isn't going to save anyone from rape.
It does save one from rape. Imagine two women. One covered in hijab and one showing her body. Who is more at risk?
Reply

Ghazi
05-16-2006, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That is ridiculous. A hijab isn't protection. Someone who wants to rape someone does so for desire to harm women, not have sex. It's about dominance, not desire.

Wearing a hijab isn't going to save anyone from rape.
Salaam

It's disire people who rape do it for sex simple as.
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-16-2006, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
It is her sin because it is not in accordance with the Hijab of Islam.
Therefore both the rapist and the woman (not dressed well) are sinful

assalaamu alaykum,

you saying she is sinful for the rape?

no, she is sinful for not covering properly, not for the man raping her. that is his choice and his sin.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-16-2006, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Is the position that a woman, Moslem or not, who does not wear hijaab, is eligible for rape, a valid one?
Rape is a crime. There is no such thing as being 'eligible' for it.

Br. Dawud stated it perfectly.

:w:
Reply

Musaafirah
05-16-2006, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Is the position that a woman, Moslem or not, who does not wear hijaab, is eligible for rape, a valid one?
:sl:
i dont quite get ur question..wat exactly do you mean? As in will she get the blame? Would she still get raped wid hijab on or wat? ..sorry..i jus dont get ur question..
:w:
Reply

Muslim Soldier
05-16-2006, 03:35 PM
brother Dawud what I was saying is that it is her sin if she doesnt cover herself properly
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-16-2006, 04:01 PM
salaam

one can go out naked, but no1 has d rite 2 rape dem!! if dey do den dats der sin,

also if 1 dnt wear d hijab, its der sin & but dey wont get punished if dey get eyed up or raped! dats d person who does it, der sin!! :)
Reply

Ghazi
05-16-2006, 04:03 PM
Salaam

In brother 'DishDash's' defence I don't think he agrees with it he was just asking the question.
Reply

Muslim Soldier
05-16-2006, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
salaam

one can go out naked, but no1 has d rite 2 rape dem!! if dey do den dats der sin,
one can not go out naked because it is against Islam hence a sin
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chacha_jalebi
05-16-2006, 04:23 PM
naaaaa u dnt say :p lol
bro i was jus statin a fact & makin me point :)
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NJUSA
05-17-2006, 12:29 AM
Rape is a tool of harm and dominance, motivated by a desire to humiliate and hurt. Rapists respond to pain and fear, not desire for intimacy. Wearing hijab won't prevent rape- just ask the legions of Bosnian and Sudanese women who have been raped as a war crime. No piece of cloth will prevent rape- making the world safer for all will.
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searchingsoul
05-17-2006, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NJUSA
Rape is a tool of harm and dominance, motivated by a desire to humiliate and hurt. Rapists respond to pain and fear, not desire for intimacy. Wearing hijab won't prevent rape- just ask the legions of Bosnian and Sudanese women who have been raped as a war crime. No piece of cloth will prevent rape- making the world safer for all will.
good point
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-17-2006, 05:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
good point
assalaamu alaykum,

no it is a bad point. we are talking about two different things, one is the rape as a war crime to hurt and humiliate a people such as happened in bosnia and still happens all over the world today.

the other is about lust, it is about a certain attitude amongst men of seeing a woman and therefore wanting her.

now if he sees two women, one dressed very little, showing off all her 'assets' and the other dressed modestly and covering herself who is he going to go for?

there is also the issue of the fact that the kuffar no longer have fear of the muslims, when people take action and make sure these people are punished then people will fear even looking at a muslim women in the wrong way.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

searchingsoul
05-17-2006, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

no it is a bad point. we are talking about two different things, one is the rape as a war crime to hurt and humiliate a people such as happened in bosnia and still happens all over the world today.

the other is about lust, it is about a certain attitude amongst men of seeing a woman and therefore wanting her.

now if he sees two women, one dressed very little, showing off all her 'assets' and the other dressed modestly and covering herself who is he going to go for?

there is also the issue of the fact that the kuffar no longer have fear of the muslims, when people take action and make sure these people are punished then people will fear even looking at a muslim women in the wrong way.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Rape is always about control. A man that rapes for the sake of being filled with lustful desires lacks the ability to control himself. A man that rapes in a war situation is exerting control of an innocent.

I don't understand your statement about kuffar no longer having fear over muslims. Are you suggesting that they should? I can understand a mutual respect. I can't understand one religious group fearing the other.
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-17-2006, 06:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Rape is always about control. A man that rapes for the sake of being filled with lustful desires lacks the ability to control himself. A man that rapes in a war situation is exerting control of an innocent.

I don't understand your statement about kuffar no longer having fear over muslims. Are you suggesting that they should? I can understand a mutual respect. I can't understand one religious group fearing the other.

Muslims have little or no power in the world, it used to be the case that a Muslim woman was exposed, not even attacked and the whole muslim world would march to war against the people who wronged her.

This happened when Yazid, a tyrant amongst the early muslims heard of one muslim women being exposed by the romans. he sent a letter saying that this letter is at the head of the army, the back of the colemn only now leaves medina.

long after that no roman would think of looknig at a muslim woman, the kuffar (disbelivers) should fear those who bring justice only if they are injust but islam has come to end oppression whether that be amongst the muslims or non-muslims.
Reply

searchingsoul
05-17-2006, 06:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Muslims have little or no power in the world, it used to be the case that a Muslim woman was exposed, not even attacked and the whole muslim world would march to war against the people who wronged her.

This happened when Yazid, a tyrant amongst the early muslims heard of one muslim women being exposed by the romans. he sent a letter saying that this letter is at the head of the army, the back of the colemn only now leaves medina.

long after that no roman would think of looknig at a muslim woman, the kuffar (disbelivers) should fear those who bring justice only if they are injust but islam has come to end oppression whether that be amongst the muslims or non-muslims.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation.
Reply

syilla
05-17-2006, 06:26 AM
a 'criminal (rapist)' will rape a child, a baby, an animal and sometimes a guy too...

*sigh... i dunno what is happening in this world...

sign of the end of the world..
Reply

dishdash
05-17-2006, 07:21 AM
But it IS a valid Islamic position according to some... Sheikh Feiz Muhammad, a Salafi made this point only last year.

I'm asking is there ANY substance to this claim? Daleel please...

For the record, I don't think there IS any substance to the best of my knowlege.
Reply

Mohsin
05-17-2006, 09:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That is ridiculous. A hijab isn't protection. Someone who wants to rape someone does so for desire to harm women, not have sex. It's about dominance, not desire.

Wearing a hijab isn't going to save anyone from rape.

Subhanallah. the limits you will go to to deny and reject hijab!
Reply

SirZubair
05-17-2006, 09:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

In brother 'DishDash's' defence I don't think he agrees with it he was just asking the question.
You got that right.

format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
But it IS a valid Islamic position according to some... Sheikh Feiz Muhammad, a Salafi made this point only last year.
I knew exactly where this was going as soon as i read the title. :hiding:
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searchingsoul
05-17-2006, 09:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
Subhanallah. the limits you will go to to deny and reject hijab!

I don't think she's trying to deny or reject hijab. She's saying that hijab doesn't protect from rape!
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Mohsin
05-17-2006, 10:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
I don't think she's trying to deny or reject hijab. She's saying that hijab doesn't protect from rape!

No you should read the thread on hijaab elsewhere in the forum. She denies hijaab at whatever oppurtunity. And i would just like to say hijaab does protect from rape. Look at the levels of rape in countries like Saudi Arabia and compare them to America or UK. in Uk One in 40 women have been raped. Hijaab maintains modesty and decraeses the chances of molestation
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searchingsoul
05-17-2006, 10:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
No you should read the thread on hijaab elsewhere in the forum. She denies hijaab at whatever oppurtunity. And i would just like to say hijaab does protect from rape. Look at the levels of rape in countries like Saudi Arabia and compare them to America or UK. in Uk One in 40 women have been raped. Hijaab maintains modesty and decraeses the chances of molestation
I disagree. I'm sure this has been debated in other hijaab related threads.
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NahidSarvy
05-17-2006, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
Subhanallah. the limits you will go to to deny and reject hijab!
Unfair, unfair.

We are discussing rape here. My position is that a victim is not responsible for the actions of a rapist, and that a rapist will pick a victim based on different factors - and that veiling doesn't help. How many nuns are raped? How many muhajjabat and munaqqabat are raped?

I respect the rights of others to veil, but they don't do so to prevent rape, because rape is about power. Modesty - whatever the choice - isn't about rape, it's about appropriate interactions between human beings.

A rapist is not concerned with modesty. A modest woman isn't safer - and don't try the old "naked woman" red herring, because rapists are rapists. Why would someone rape a naked woman? That's not the issue for Muslims, it's about their lowering the eyes and not thinking about adultery.

I've never met anyone who was like, "she was so hot, i'd rape her!" It just doesn't play into normal sexual situations.

So my opinions on veiling are irrelevant for this conversation. (Besides which, I still believe in modesty.)
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HeiGou
05-17-2006, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
And i would just like to say hijaab does protect from rape. Look at the levels of rape in countries like Saudi Arabia and compare them to America or UK. in Uk One in 40 women have been raped. Hijaab maintains modesty and decraeses the chances of molestation
The UN WHO survey says that 30 percent of rural Bangladesh women describe their first sexual experience as "forced". That's about 1 in 3.

Of course hijab is not properly enforced there. But it is more common than in Britain.
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- Qatada -
05-17-2006, 05:21 PM
:salamext:


The Noble Qur'an - An-Nur 24:30

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.

Its so ironic how Allaah Almighty says:

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things)..

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things)..

& directly after that:


..and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them.


..and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment


Therefore its obvious that Allaah Almighty says that males and females should lower their gaze, that the women should not show their adornments (except to the mahrams) and that they should all protect their private parts from illegal sexual acts.


So just think about it - if the man was to lower his gaze, and protect his private parts from illegal sexual acts - he wouldn't be a rapist.


Therefore Allaah Almighty behind His Eternal Wisdom put the verses in this certain order to show that these crimes can be prevented if a person just lowers his/her gaze, and if the woman covers her adornments - the chance of rape will be really low.

This is then reinforced because Allaah Almighty tells both males and females to protect their private parts from illegal sexual acts.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


:wasalamex
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Mohsin
05-17-2006, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
The UN WHO survey says that 30 percent of rural Bangladesh women describe their first sexual experience as "forced". That's about 1 in 3.

Of course hijab is not properly enforced there. But it is more common than in Britain.

Source?
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NahidSarvy
05-18-2006, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Its so ironic how Allaah Almighty says: "..and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them."
Your argument is specious. Those are INTERPOLATIONS INTO THE TEXT - you have added the bits in the parentheses.

There is no reason to think this verse is about rape. Rapists aren't motivated by seeing your hair; this causes problems by causing lust in the opposite sex, not by stimulating a rapist. A rapist goes out looking for victims, and a veil isn't going to stop anyone.
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searchingsoul
05-18-2006, 02:02 AM
I'm curious if anyone who thinks a veil would protect a women from rape, ever has desires to rape unveiled women (or personally know men who have these desires)?
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dishdash
05-18-2006, 04:07 AM
A true Moslem male could have a naked woman pass before him and still keep his gaze firmly downwards as he removed himself from her presence.
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Joe98
05-18-2006, 04:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Is the position that a woman, Moslem or not, who does not wear hijaab, is eligible for rape, a valid one?

Who holds that position?

-
Reply

Joe98
05-18-2006, 04:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
It is her sin because it is not in accordance with the Hijab of Islam.
Therefore both the rapist and the woman (not dressed well) are sinful
How should the man be punished?

How should the woman be punished?

-
Reply

Joe98
05-18-2006, 04:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier
It does save one from rape. Imagine two women. One covered in hijab and one showing her body. Who is more at risk?

The woman who is smaller and weaker as she will find it hard to defend herself.
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Halima
05-18-2006, 04:32 AM
:sl:

Brother Dishdash, you should rephrase your question because there is no such thing as an 'eligible' rape.

As for the hijab yes indeed it is for protection. Allah(swt) had directed ALL muslim women to dress modestly to protect her from the evils lurking around.

In Islam, there is a reason for everything. Any muslim woman you see out there is no wearing hijab for her own health, but rather for protection.

At the same time, it is the man's fault if he decides to rape a women. Rape is a crime period. Whoever has commited the crime, has commited the sin..it is not a matter of women don't cover up or not.

Men do their jobs by lowering the gaze and dressing modestly.
Women do their jobs by lowering the gaze and dressing modestly.

period.
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syilla
05-18-2006, 04:52 AM
yup... it is one of the reasons to wear hijab....
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mbaig
05-18-2006, 05:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That is ridiculous. A hijab isn't protection. Someone who wants to rape someone does so for desire to harm women, not have sex. It's about dominance, not desire.

Wearing a hijab isn't going to save anyone from rape.
A'salaam alaykum Sister ,

Hijab saves you from the outside world. It is a protection for women. Hijab gives you modesty and let others respect you.
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muzna
05-18-2006, 05:51 AM
a woman dressed indecently with attract more attention than one wearing hijab, therefore the former is more prone to assault. the sin of rape is on the rapist, but i think the victim if she was dressed indecently was not taking precautions to prevent the crime. its like locking your front door to keep away burglars, you can leave your home wide open and it could get robbed. the sin of robbery is not yours, but you could have done something to prevent it.
Reply

muzna
05-18-2006, 05:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
The UN WHO survey says that 30 percent of rural Bangladesh women describe their first sexual experience as "forced". That's about 1 in 3.

Of course hijab is not properly enforced there. But it is more common than in Britain.
i think for rural bangladeshi women, their first experience would be with their husband. it has nothing to do with hijab.
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muzna
05-18-2006, 05:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
How should the man be punished?

How should the woman be punished?

-
the man's punishment is according to sharia
the woman will receive her punishment from Allah
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searchingsoul
05-18-2006, 05:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
a woman dressed indecently with attract more attention than one wearing hijab, therefore the former is more prone to assault. the sin of rape is on the rapist, but i think the victim if she was dressed indecently was not taking precautions to prevent the crime. its like locking your front door to keep away burglars, you can leave your home wide open and it could get robbed. the sin of robbery is not yours, but you could have done something to prevent it.
That's a good analogy.
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dishdash
05-18-2006, 07:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
a woman dressed indecently with attract more attention than one wearing hijab, therefore the former is more prone to assault. the sin of rape is on the rapist, but i think the victim if she was dressed indecently was not taking precautions to prevent the crime. its like locking your front door to keep away burglars, you can leave your home wide open and it could get robbed. the sin of robbery is not yours, but you could have done something to prevent it.
To use your analogy, houses are robbed regardless of how well they are locked. If someone is deadset on robbing your house, it doesn't matter what the precautions are.

You know, one of the biggest problems in the ummah today, and possibly its greatest failing is the way that we try and work out the logic of God's commandments. Now our Rasool filled in some gaps when the people really needed help to understand. But he probably left more questions unanswered than he actually explained. Why is this? Because our faith is meant to be fairly and squarely in the doing of GOd's will, not trying to understand it.

And yet, pretty much everywhere, we have people trying to do just this. Why, only a day or so ago, on this forum, people were trying to explain that pork is haram because it is unhealthy or that studies show this or that; it's not. It is haram because God said it was - period. We have people trying to say that hijaab is a defence against rape. It is not. And I'd suggest not bringing this line up at the Moslem Women's refuge network that my family run.

The point is, God told women to wear hijaab. And for sure it IS a protection against a great many things in a social and spiritual context. But when we start trying to fill in the gaps and make silly claims like it stops men getting ideas of lust, there is some truth to that, but that is not to say it stops a man who is capable of rape raping. It doesn't. In fact, some men see raping hijaabi's as a bit of a kick - again, I'm not going to go into this but I know of what I speak.

I do doubt that THIS thing happens so much in countries where the hijaab and the abaya are much more (though I acknowlege rape does happen - and just because it's largely confined to the Russian prostitute population doesn't make it any better) and therein lies an important point. In a western context, most girls walking around without hijaab don't stick out at all. There is anonymity. But stick on the hijaab and Western men AND women will have a look. Most of them are like - what's under there I wonder? But there are some far more sinister types.

Let me give you another angle to this... some of the women I know of who have experienced the life-changing tragedy that is rape, and who DID wear the veil/abaya are affected in another way. They start believing that they must be evil in another way - after all women who wear hijaab DON'T get raped do they? This gets pretty self-destructive. Mash'Allah, if you knew some of the stories...

Allah swt told women to cover. Some extent of the reasoning was made by the Rasool pbuh. Enough. Do it - because God said so. And certainly don't wear it cos it makes you safe from rape. It doesn't.

ANd whilst I am typing, there is no absolution from rape for a man whatever the women is wearing. If she says no, it's a NO. I would personally stoke the very fires of hell to burn the brothers who feel there is any justification to this heinous crime. And if you knew what I knew, you'd be in line and shovel in hand too.
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dishdash
05-18-2006, 08:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Who holds that position?

-
"eligible for rape" - enter this on google...
Reply

NahidSarvy
05-18-2006, 08:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
a woman dressed indecently with attract more attention than one wearing hijab, therefore the former is more prone to assault. the sin of rape is on the rapist, but i think the victim if she was dressed indecently was not taking precautions to prevent the crime. its like locking your front door to keep away burglars, you can leave your home wide open and it could get robbed. the sin of robbery is not yours, but you could have done something to prevent it.
That's still specious, because a veil is not a lock.

It's like claiming that having a sign on the door to the women's room prevents rapists from entering. It doesn't protect women, it just gives the illusion.

A veil is not a lock, it's a sign. Stranger-rapists attack very elderly women, unattractive women and children too; I also remind you that, as was pointed out above, most rape does not happen at the hands of a stranger, but rather at the hands of a person the woman trusts - family member etc.

Hijab is not relevant to this situation except, apparently, to say that those who don't wear it deserve what happens.
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-18-2006, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
That's still specious, because a veil is not a lock.

It's like claiming that having a sign on the door to the women's room prevents rapists from entering. It doesn't protect women, it just gives the illusion.

A veil is not a lock, it's a sign. Stranger-rapists attack very elderly women, unattractive women and children too; I also remind you that, as was pointed out above, most rape does not happen at the hands of a stranger, but rather at the hands of a person the woman trusts - family member etc.

Hijab is not relevant to this situation except, apparently, to say that those who don't wear it deserve what happens.

but the vast majority of rapes are not stranger rapes are they?

statistics show that ONE IN FOUR women will suffer a rape or attempted rape in their lifetime and most of these are from men they know, not strangers.

now if a woman wears hijab she is saying NO ENTRY to all except her husband, it is that simple.
Reply

NahidSarvy
05-18-2006, 03:00 PM
---
Reply

muzna
05-19-2006, 04:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
To use your analogy, houses are robbed regardless of how well they are locked. If someone is deadset on robbing your house, it doesn't matter what the precautions are.

You know, one of the biggest problems in the ummah today, and possibly its greatest failing is the way that we try and work out the logic of God's commandments. Now our Rasool filled in some gaps when the people really needed help to understand. But he probably left more questions unanswered than he actually explained. Why is this? Because our faith is meant to be fairly and squarely in the doing of GOd's will, not trying to understand it.

And yet, pretty much everywhere, we have people trying to do just this. Why, only a day or so ago, on this forum, people were trying to explain that pork is haram because it is unhealthy or that studies show this or that; it's not. It is haram because God said it was - period. We have people trying to say that hijaab is a defence against rape. It is not. And I'd suggest not bringing this line up at the Moslem Women's refuge network that my family run.

The point is, God told women to wear hijaab. And for sure it IS a protection against a great many things in a social and spiritual context. But when we start trying to fill in the gaps and make silly claims like it stops men getting ideas of lust, there is some truth to that, but that is not to say it stops a man who is capable of rape raping. It doesn't. In fact, some men see raping hijaabi's as a bit of a kick - again, I'm not going to go into this but I know of what I speak.

I do doubt that THIS thing happens so much in countries where the hijaab and the abaya are much more (though I acknowlege rape does happen - and just because it's largely confined to the Russian prostitute population doesn't make it any better) and therein lies an important point. In a western context, most girls walking around without hijaab don't stick out at all. There is anonymity. But stick on the hijaab and Western men AND women will have a look. Most of them are like - what's under there I wonder? But there are some far more sinister types.

Let me give you another angle to this... some of the women I know of who have experienced the life-changing tragedy that is rape, and who DID wear the veil/abaya are affected in another way. They start believing that they must be evil in another way - after all women who wear hijaab DON'T get raped do they? This gets pretty self-destructive. Mash'Allah, if you knew some of the stories...

Allah swt told women to cover. Some extent of the reasoning was made by the Rasool pbuh. Enough. Do it - because God said so. And certainly don't wear it cos it makes you safe from rape. It doesn't.

ANd whilst I am typing, there is no absolution from rape for a man whatever the women is wearing. If she says no, it's a NO. I would personally stoke the very fires of hell to burn the brothers who feel there is any justification to this heinous crime. And if you knew what I knew, you'd be in line and shovel in hand too.
it is good to hear of your work to help victims of rape. however, you are definitely not the only one on this forum doing social work..i'm sure most of us have heard horror stories too, first hand..
the reason i love Islam so much is because it makes so much sense. Yes, we follow the rules because God asked us to, but these rules have reasons behind them.
We dont eat pork because God made it haram. “O ye who believe! Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you, and render thanks to Allah if it is (indeed) He whom ye worship” (2:172).
This indicates that the flesh of the pig is not a 'good thing' as it is forbidden by Allah. Allah would never forbid something that would be good for us.
forgive me if i'm wrong
salams
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
it is good to hear of your work to help victims of rape. however, you are definitely not the only one on this forum doing social work..i'm sure most of us have heard horror stories too, first hand..
the reason i love Islam so much is because it makes so much sense. Yes, we follow the rules because God asked us to, but these rules have reasons behind them.
We dont eat pork because God made it haram. “O ye who believe! Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you, and render thanks to Allah if it is (indeed) He whom ye worship” (2:172).
This indicates that the flesh of the pig is not a 'good thing' as it is forbidden by Allah. Allah would never forbid something that would be good for us.
forgive me if i'm wrong
salams
I don't think you're wrong - we're not disgreeing. Yet you have to understand that not everything in Islam 'makes sense'. It may feel like it is something we can truly comprehend, but that may or may not be true. The reasons behind the rules are really only known by the Creator himself. ANd if He created something good, it is for our good that He did so - so no, clearly He would not forbid anything bad.... not sure what point you were making but it doesn't really affect the one I was making.

The point is, it is not for us to second-guess the reasons why things are haram and halal. We just do it.

And back to the topic, nowhere was it ever said that hijaab protects against rape.
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash

And back to the topic, nowhere was it ever said that hijaab protects against rape.

:sl:

how you doing akhi?
I dunno, i think hijab does help, it reduces chances of potential rape imho
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 01:11 PM
Alhamdulilah brother. Doing good thanks for asking! And how's life in Cardiff (if that is not too much of an oxymoron!)?

There may well be an argument that it REDUCES the chance of rape, but there is no religious argument for that.
Reply

muzna
05-19-2006, 01:13 PM
i agree with what you said..we follow the commands of Allah because he asked us to..however..a lot of these rules do have reasons behind them..or else Islamic way of life would just be a bunch of rules- do this, do that, dont ask why, you dont need to understand the reason behind it
our understanding of these rules also helps scholars form fatwas in the modern world.
nowhere was it said that hijaab protects you from rape, however hijaab does preserve a womans modesty. i have lived in two countries so far (Sri Lanka and Pakistan), in both, men dont give you a second glance in you're in abaya, where as if you were in a tight skirt..well..you know..
indecent clothing attracts attention..yeah..if someone really wanted to victimise a woman, there's isnt much you could do to stop him, but why would a man want to rape a woman totally covered up and looks just like the next lady in hijab
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Alhamdulilah brother. Doing good thanks for asking! And how's life in Cardiff (if that is not too much of an oxymoron!)?

There may well be an argument that it REDUCES the chance of rape, but there is no religious argument for that.

whats an oxymoron?

Anyway, i agree with you the commands of Allah are down to his divine wisdom, and we may not understand it fully. But usually there is evident wisdom shown.

And also, it actually says in the Qur'an, Allah instructs women to cover to prevent molestation. So it does stop rape, because thats the reaosn allah ordained it

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]
Reply

muzna
05-19-2006, 01:21 PM
i think an oxymoron is a statement where consecutive words contradict..
what brother moss is saying is exactly my point...sorry..i beat around the bush alot i guess
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
i think an oxymoron is a statement where consecutive words contradict..

He said
Doing good thanks for asking! And how's life in Cardiff (if that is not too much of an oxymoron!)?
I dont see how that has contradicting words. anyways back on topic, even if hijaab had no good effect, it wouldn't matter as thats is what allah has ordained
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-19-2006, 01:48 PM
so dishdash what do you think is the reason for sisters wearing hijab, if not to protect them?
:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
05-19-2006, 01:49 PM
:salamext:


Qur'an Surah Ahzab (33:53)


O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity.




Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola tadkhuloo buyoota alnnabiyyi illa an yu/thanalakum ila taAAamin ghayra nathireenainahu walakin itha duAAeetum faodkhuloofa-itha taAAimtum faintashiroo walamusta/niseena lihadeethin inna thalikum kanayu/thee alnnabiyya fayastahyee minkum waAllahula yastahyee mina alhaqqi wa-ithasaaltumoohunna mataAAan fais-aloohunna min wara-ihijabin thalikum atharu liquloobikumwaquloobihinna wama kana lakum an tu/thoorasoola Allahi wala an tankihoo azwajahumin baAAdihi abadan inna thalikum kana AAinda AllahiAAatheeman

The aayah above is showing that the hijab is a screen 'that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.'


And without this hijab, it can cause fitnah which does affect the heart and this is the reason why Allaah Almighty may have made it important for the women to cover their adornments, and for both parties to lower their gaze, because without both of these acts, it can cause corruption - like it is seen as so much in the west.


:wasalamex
Reply

muzna
05-19-2006, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
He said

I dont see how that has contradicting words. anyways back on topic, even if hijaab had no good effect, it wouldn't matter as thats is what allah has ordained
when he said 'how's life in Cardiff' i think he was jokingly suggesting that life is tough in cardiff or life and cardiff dont compliment each other
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muzna
when he said 'how's life in Cardiff' i think he was jokingly suggesting that life is tough in cardiff or life and cardiff dont compliment each other

lol ok, i dont know why he would say that though, except if there is a city in australia called cardiff which happens to be rough!
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
whats an oxymoron?

Anyway, i agree with you the commands of Allah are down to his divine wisdom, and we may not understand it fully. But usually there is evident wisdom shown.

And also, it actually says in the Qur'an, Allah instructs women to cover to prevent molestation. So it does stop rape, because thats the reaosn allah ordained it

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]
Molest does not mean rape. Women with the veil CAN be raped - the hijaab stops nothing. Besides, this is not exactly the intent of the Qur'an here...

Al-Azhab in this case should be read in Arabic (one of the problems of reading translations akhi is exactly this) There is no exact English translation but the phrase essentially means she will not be annoyed, stressed, troubled, trialled etc. It is not a reference to rape prevention. You are filling in a gap with your own interpretation. And on this point I again urge my brothers and sisters to be very careful in quoting ayas from the Qur'an in English (indeed at all) without a firm understanding of the actual Arabic versions. You end up changing the meaning, regardless of where your intentions are.

As you have done here.

Allah hafiz.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-19-2006, 02:49 PM
I think we should be careful when we qoute ayat here, in case we interpret the meanings wrong. None of us are qualified to interpret the meanings of ayat.
:w:
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 02:53 PM
Sorry about that, but in my defence all i did was state Dr naik's interpretaion of it

5. Hijaab prevents molestation


The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

From http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:





The aayah above is showing that the hijab is a screen 'that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.'


And without this hijab, it can cause fitnah which does affect the heart and this is the reason why Allaah Almighty may have made it important for the women to cover their adornments, and for both parties to lower their gaze, because without both of these acts, it can cause corruption - like it is seen as so much in the west.


:wasalamex
Sorry bro - you are also quoting from Azhar not Taubah...
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
lol ok, i dont know why he would say that though, except if there is a city in australia called cardiff which happens to be rough!
I say that cos I've been there! Rough as nuts it is! Not as bad as Bridgend though mind!

I'd love to hear a good strong Welsh baritone make the adhan though...
Reply

dishdash
05-19-2006, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moss
Sorry about that, but in my defence all i did was state Dr naik's interpretaion of it

5. Hijaab prevents molestation


The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

From http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
Yusuf Ali also says molested. But it is the inadequacy of the English language that necessitates our lerning of God's words in Arabic. Reading QUr'an in English is simply a tool and a means to an end - learning and comprehending the QUr'an as it was relayed to the Rasool is our end insh'Allah.

So I return to the point - hijaab does not prevent rape.
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash

So I return to the point - hijaab does not prevent rape.

yeah of course it doesn't, hijabis still get raped, but it reduces the chances of molestation and rape. It brings modesty and thats the wisdom behind it, i'm sure there are many infinite more
Reply

- Qatada -
05-19-2006, 03:33 PM
:salamext:


jazak Allaah khayr for pointin that out bro.


But anyway, some common sense - if two females (one with the full abaya, and the other with western clothing.) both were walking in the street, and there was a rapist there - the chance of the rapist attacking the western dressed woman would be more likely?


:wasalamex
Reply

Mohsin
05-19-2006, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


jazak Allaah khayr for pointin that out bro.


But anyway, some common sense - if two females (one with the full abaya, and the other with western clothing.) both were walking in the street, and there was a rapist there - the chance of the rapist attacking the western dressed woman would be more likely?


:wasalamex
The Zakir Naik approach, i like it! ;)
Reply

NJUSA
05-20-2006, 01:38 AM
From What Rapists Look for in a Victim
http://www.criminalsbehindbars.com/info/notargets.html
The #1 thing men look for in a potential victim is hairstyle. They are most likely to go after a woman with a ponytail, bun, braid, or other hairstyle that can easily be grabbed.

They are also likely to go after a woman with long hair. Women with short hair are not common targets.
-Women often wear these kinds of hairstyles under hijab, and the lump is often noticeable, if you're looking closely. And cultural preferences for long hair don't help.
The #2 thing men look for is clothing. They will look for women who's clothing is easy to remove quickly.
Abayas often have velcro closings, and jilbabs often open quite easily- part of the reason why I hate wearing them- they will open with a few steps.
The #1 outfit they look for is overalls because many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing and on overalls the straps can be easily cut.

They also look for women on their cell phone, searching through their purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off guard and can be easily overpowered.

The time of day men are most likely to attack and rape a woman is in the early morning, between 5 and 8:30 a.m.

The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots.

Number two is office parking lots/garages.

Number three is public restrooms.
-This could be anyone- look out!
The thing about these men is that they are looking to grab a woman and quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry about getting caught.

Only 2% said they carried weapons because rape carries a 3-5 year sentence but rape with a weapon is 15-20 years.

If you put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged because it only takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't worth it because it will be time-consuming.

These men said they will not pick on women who have umbrellas, or other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands.

Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the attacker to use them as a weapon.

So, the idea is to convince these guys you're not worth it.

Some self-defense mechanisms are:

* If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question, like what time is it, or make general small talk, I can't believe it is so cold out here, we're in for a bad winter. Now you've seen their face and could identify them in a lineup, you lose appeal as a target.

* If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists said they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target.

* If you carry pepper spray, yelling "I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY" and holding it out will be a deterrent.

* If someone grabs you, you can't beat them with strength but you can by outsmarting them. If they grab your wrist, pull your wrist back so your hand is in waving position (palm facing forward) and twist it toward yourself and pull your arm away. It is hard to hold onto wrist bones that are moving in that way. They stumble toward you and you stumble back, so you can use that momentum to bring the same out and backhand them with your knuckles in the forehead, nose, or teeth.

* If you are grabbed around the waist from behind, pinch the attacker either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner thigh. HARD. One woman said that she used the underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands - the guy needed stitches. (Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand it. It hurts.)

* After the initial hit, always go for the groin. If you hit a guy's testicles, it is extremely painful. You might think that you'll make him angry and make him want to hurt you more, but the thing these rapists told us, is that they want a woman who will not cause a lot of trouble. Start causing trouble and he's out of there.

* When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on them as possible.

Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your surroundings, take someone with you if you can, and if you see any odd behavior, don't dismiss it, go with your instincts. You may feel a little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was trouble.
Hmm... it doesn't say anything about covering up being more of a protection.
Reply

SirZubair
05-20-2006, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Who holds that position?

-
Sheikh Feiz Muhammad
Reply

SirZubair
05-20-2006, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
so dishdash what do you think is the reason for sisters wearing hijab, if not to protect them?
:w:
Even thought this question wasnt directed at me,i would like to have a go at answering it :)

The way i see it,a Hijab is for covering a womans beauty,to stop men from perving on the female.

But it is not a shield,even a woman wearing a hijab can be raped.

I've heard of so many rape incidents all around the world,and when the pictures of the victims are revealed,they are not christina aguilera/pamela anderson lookalikes.

So i dont think Rapists care about what the female looks like,so wether a lady is wearing a hijab or not doesnt matter to the rapist.

I cant imagine a rapist stopping and thinking "daymn...shes wearing hijab,shes a muslimah,..i better not.."

:)

wa'salaam.
Reply

*Sonya
05-24-2006, 04:29 PM
mashallah
thnx for sharin
Reply

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