Nonviolent Growth of Islam

[searchingsoul]

Does the West really have nothing to fear from Islamic growth?

[moujahid]

Does the West really have nothing to fear from Islamic growth?

No.
Islam is nothing to fear from. It is a beautiful way of life that helps you solve all the problems. It has been sent down to mankind to make their life and afterlife easy. It is a blessing but most of us are heedless and ungreatful.

[saidaharther]

aslam alaikum
yes it's confusing why they make so much propaganda against us, as if we done antyhign wrong :(

it's not us who done nagasaki bombing
salam alaikum

[searchingsoul]

aslam alaikum
yes it's confusing why they make so much propaganda against us, as if we done antyhign wrong :(

it's not us who done nagasaki bombing
salam alaikum

It's true that Muslims didn't do the nagasaki bombing. The USA government is responsible for this atrocity. The citizens of the USA weren't consulted before the bombs fell. I DO hear many Muslims suggesting that the USA needs to be invaded, the USA culture is evil, the kaffurs are evil and shouldn't be trusted, the terrorists are heroes, etc....I proposed a valid question.

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[Woodrow]

Please take a moment to view this:

http://media.putfile.com/This-is-Islam-flash-video

[searchingsoul]

Please take a moment to view this:

http://media.putfile.com/This-is-Islam-flash-video

It's a nice video.

[KAding]

Does the West really have nothing to fear from Islamic growth?

From a political point of view I believe we do. Muslim political theory in many ways run contrary to many Western political principles regarding freedom and equality.

The two are therefor not fully compatible. But perhaps a mix is possible, but I doubt either side is interested in such a compromise.

[HeiGou]

No.
Islam is nothing to fear from. It is a beautiful way of life that helps you solve all the problems. It has been sent down to mankind to make their life and afterlife easy. It is a blessing but most of us are heedless and ungreatful.

Well let me re-phrase the question: Do people who like the Western way of life and wish it to continue have any reason to suspect it may be destroyed if Islam continues to grow?

[Trumble]

Well let me re-phrase the question: Do people who like the Western way of life and wish it to continue have any reason to suspect it may be destroyed if Islam continues to grow?

I see a potential threat to one of the things I value most, religious freedom. There is very little so fundamental to the happiness of an individual. While such freedom is still welcomed in many primarily muslim societies, in others it seems tolerance is much less.

Islam may well be a beautiful way of life, but I happen to follow an alternative way of life I believe to more more beautiful, more intellectually coherent, and simply more to do with Reality as it is. My perception of Islam is that it cannot offer equality for such people within an Islamic society, particularly if they are also outside the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[S_87]

Does the West really have nothing to fear from Islamic growth?

Hi

nope not really :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,
I think simplistic and frankly, childish, analyses of "freedom vs. oppression", "good vs. evil", "justice vs. injustice", "us vs. them" will only delude people and create more conflict. Its not that Muslims don't value freedom - every society places restrictions and what they believe are reasonable limits on an individual's freedoms. Freedom is never absolute.

And terrorism has been unanimously condemned by all Muslim scholars because Islam itself condemns it.

Regards

[Muslim Soldier]

The west has many things to lose.
1 Power
2.Way of living.
Many pleasures of this world are forbidden in Islam.

[Trumble]

Its not that Muslims don't value freedom - every society places restrictions and what they believe are reasonable limits on an individual's freedoms. Freedom is never absolute.

Freedom can never be absolute in any society, unless you are convinced by Rousseau, anyway. It should, however, apply equally to all within that society regardless of religious belief, the one exception being in matters directly related to religion. For example, a non-muslim living in a muslim state should have equal rights under the judicial system and taxation system, and have equal employment opportunities etc, but there is no associated "right" to enter areas forbidden to non-muslims for religious reasons.

[KAding]

Greetings,
I think simplistic and frankly, childish, analyses of "freedom vs. oppression", "good vs. evil", "justice vs. injustice", "us vs. them" will only delude people and create more conflict.

Simplistic? Childish? How so?

Its not that Muslims don't value freedom - every society places restrictions and what they believe are reasonable limits on an individual's freedoms. Freedom is never absolute.

True. But surely you agree how the Islamic world and how the West conceptualize freedom or equality is different?

[primitivefuture]

Many pleasures of this world are forbidden in Islam.

Yes, like sex, drugs, alcohol, and homosexuality. Sound good to me.

[Woodrow]

Perhaps, we can also reword this another way. Do Muslim's have anything to fear from the "Nonviolent Growth of Christianity?"

Muslims do have the same type of fears when Christianity expands into Islamic areas

So I think a fair answer would be is that a Christian would have the exact same things to fear as he/she would expect a Muslim to fear from the growth of Christianity.

My own personal believe is that Muslims have much more to fear from Christians then Christians have from Muslims. Christianity does have a long viloent history of using any means possible to spread it's self into new areas.

Going back to the Crusades. Keep in mind the crusades were not just into the Mid-east. You also had the crusades into Eastern Europe and Western Russia. The Baltic countries fought them for many years. Poland and some others succumbed fairly fast. Lithuania fought for centuries.

Then the spread through colonization and enforced Christianity.

What was done in the Americas totaly wiping out native tribes that did not become Christian.

Current unethical prostyizing methods ranging from hate mongering to even producing false Qur'ans to mislead Muslims. Unethical money raising techniques via TV Evangelists. Shunning of non-Christians in the work force and society.

A non-Christian does suffer from prejudice anytime Christianity grows and dominates their country.

[Trumble]

Muslims do have the same type of fears when Christianity expands into Islamic areas

So I think a fair answer would be is that a Christian would have the exact same things to fear as he/she would expect a Muslim to fear from the growth of Christianity.

My own personal believe is that Muslims have much more to fear from Christians then Christians have from Muslims. Christianity does have a long viloent history of using any means possible to spread it's self into new areas.

Going back to the Crusades. Keep in mind the crusades were not just into the Mid-east. You also had the crusades into Eastern Europe and Western Russia. The Baltic countries fought them for many years. Poland and some others succumbed fairly fast. Lithuania fought for centuries.

If you back as far as the crusades, you might as well go back to the muslim conquest of North Africa and Spain. In the 21st century neither faith attempts to spread itself by force - when it may appear that way, there is an underlying political rather than religious region for conflict. There were significant political factors (mostly to do with a land-grab) in both the Crusades and Muslim Conquest, incidentally, as well as most other instances you could think of. In the Americas in particular, the appalling behaviour of the Europeans had far more to do with getting rich than spreading Christianity. Like today, religion was just an excuse. In the context of this discussion, though "violent history" in both cases is irrelevant.

The difference between the two, I think, is that by its very nature Islam combines everyday life with devotional religion in a way that Christianity does not. There is no Christian equivalent of sharia law. Much Western law originates from Christian and Jewish moral teaching, and even some Church law, but it has been essentially secular in form for centuries. The Bible does not set out rules for everyday life, personal relationships or the judicial system in anything like the detail of the Qur'an. It is perfectly possible, and indeed is (almost) the case in most 'Christian' countries for civil law and religious 'law' to remain totally independent. As I understand it, that is not possible in a 'perfect' Islamic society. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[mujahedeen2087]

Yes, like sex, drugs, alcohol, and homosexuality. Sound good to me.

yeah i wish i could do those things

[Woodrow]

Trumble,
I will agree you bring up some excellent points that do deserve to be addressed. I hope you will bear with me. I'm a bit brain dead today. I would like to just address one area at the moment.

"The difference between the two, I think, is that by its very nature Islam combines everyday life with devotional religion in a way that Christianity does not. There is no Christian equivalent of sharia law. Much Western law originates from Christian and Jewish moral teaching, and even some Church law, but it has been essentially secular in form for centuries. The Bible does not set out rules for everyday life, personal relationships or the judicial system in anything like the detail of the Qur'an. It is perfectly possible, and indeed is (almost) the case in most 'Christian' countries for civil law and religious 'law' to remain totally independent. As I understand it, that is not possible in a 'perfect' Islamic society. Please correct me if I am wrong."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually Christianity does attach religious believs in all areas. In the countries were the religious influence is being reduced you see moral decay.

The Bible does set out rules for everyday living. Any true Christian will tell you that Christianity has to affect every aspect of their life. A person can not be a Christian just in worship only, the Bible is a guide for daily living.

The problem with Sharia law is what is often times portrayed as Sharia Law is not Islamic, it is a cultural aspect of the country. True Sharia law would not apply to non-Muslims. The Muslim would be subject to both laws the Sharia laws and the Laws of the country. While the non-Muslim would only be subject to the country laws.

Now for Christian Equivlencies of Sharia Law. Some countries do have their legalistic teachings based on doctrine and not seperated from the Church. Unfair example:Vatican City, but there are others that the country laws are not seperated from the church. Italy, Spain, Greece, Guatamala and a few others.

Now a "Perfect" Islamic country would by definition have to be 100% Muslim. Like wise a "Perfect" Christian country would have to be 100% Christian. Few countries are 100% anything.

So yes in a "perfect" Muslim country all laws would be in compliance with Islam. At the same time in a "perfect" Christian country all laws would be compliant with Christian doctrine.

[Islamicboy]

Which muslim says terriost are good people? We say Mujahadeen are good people.

[Ghazi]

yeah i wish i could do those things

:sl:

Am I reading you right :grumbling

[KAding]

Actually Christianity does attach religious believs in all areas. In the countries were the religious influence is being reduced you see moral decay.

'Moral decay' depends on your interpretation of morals. What many Muslims consider highly immoral I probably don't consider immoral. Similarly punishing so-called victimless crimes (homosexuality, apostacy, adultery) is immoral IMHO, while it is very common in an Islamic society.

The problem with Sharia law is what is often times portrayed as Sharia Law is not Islamic, it is a cultural aspect of the country. True Sharia law would not apply to non-Muslims. The Muslim would be subject to both laws the Sharia laws and the Laws of the country. While the non-Muslim would only be subject to the country laws.

Now for Christian Equivlencies of Sharia Law. Some countries do have their legalistic teachings based on doctrine and not seperated from the Church. Unfair example:Vatican City, but there are others that the country laws are not seperated from the church. Italy, Spain, Greece, Guatamala and a few others.

Interesting. Could you explain in what way Italy, Spain or Greece do not seperate their laws from the church? Although there might be a traditional link, this is link is usually not institutionalized or formal. So while the Church might have influence over politics, politics is not formally bound to religious doctrine, while this is very much the case in Islamic states.

I don't think European political systems can in any way be called religious. They are in fact highly secular and produce secular legislation which is, according to your definitions, probably highly immoral.

Political systems in the West are explicitely seperated from Church and religion, usually this is written down in the constitution. Surely this is completely different from Islamic countries even now, whereby the constitutions are often explicitely linked to Islam. I believe at least 50% of the Muslim countries call themselves Islamic States?

Now a "Perfect" Islamic country would by definition have to be 100% Muslim. Like wise a "Perfect" Christian country would have to be 100% Christian. Few countries are 100% anything.

So yes in a "perfect" Muslim country all laws would be in compliance with Islam. At the same time in a "perfect" Christian country all laws would be compliant with Christian doctrine.

But surely you accept that Christianity simply does not have anything remotely similar to the Sha'ria? Or am I mistaken in this and has it simply been suppressed by a few centuries of secular states?

[snakelegs]

i would hate to live in ANY theocratic state, be it islamic or any other religion! one of the things i appreciate about the u.s. is the separation of church and state, as imperfect as it is.

[Trumble]

i would hate to live in ANY theocratic state, be it islamic or any other religion! one of the things i appreciate about the u.s. is the separation of church and state, as imperfect as it is.

I thought you were Australian... or is that somebody else?

[Noora_z3]

Well let me re-phrase the question: Do people who like the Western way of life and wish it to continue have any reason to suspect it may be destroyed if Islam continues to grow?

I personally think, Yes.

Lets just say destroyed to be replaced by something better..

[Skillganon]

Here's some interesting topics, http://www.islaam.com/Section.aspx?id=17
It is a interesting read, I recommend it.
I was thinking of opening a thread up for Islam vs Secularism

[SirZubair]

Does the West really have nothing to fear from Islamic growth?

The west shouldnt be scared of Islam.

But as far as muslims go,thats another story.

[snakelegs]

I thought you were Australian... or is that somebody else?

nope - i'm american

[wilberhum]

To answer the question, I must look at Islam in two parts. There is personal Islam that is the religious and personal conduct of Islam. Its growth gives me no concern. The other part, political Islam, gives me great concern. I want separation of church and state and as Snakelegs said “I would hate to live in ANY theocratic state, be it Islamic or any other religion!” and also “one of the things I appreciate about the us. is the separation of church and state, as imperfect as it is.”
But then almost no change of political systems takes place that is nonviolent.

[mujahedeen2087]

:sl:

Am I reading you right :grumbling

i was being sarcastic, May Allah protect us from these sins!

[KAding]

Well, Islam is a threat to the West just like secularism is a threat to the Muslim world. Both have their own view on the organisation of the state and will thus clash.

However, there is potential for Muslims to ignore/forget this 'worldly' aspect of their religion. After all, many Muslim nations are secular as it is. If Islam is increasingly interpreted as a religion and less as a system of government than there is no real threat. If Muslims start to view the role of religion in politics as one of influence and not control, just like most Christians do, than there is no reason to clash either.

IMHO :)