Question to Nicola and other Christians

[Mohsin]

:sl:

I been meaning to put this link up for a while but haven't.

Its a quiz about the Bible, and how it contains contradictions. I warn you before hand it is very "in your face".

http://exchristian.net/3/

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I did it and got zero out of twenty!

I'm ranked as "clueless"!

That's the worst I've ever done on any test in my life!

:rollseyes

Peace

[Mohsin]

Greetings,

I did it and got zero out of twenty!

I'm ranked as "clueless"!

That's the worst I've ever done on any test in my life!

:rollseyes

Peace

Lol try it again its the same quiz each time, see if you get one right this time

[Tania]

It always show 0 answers correct.
I took two times the test, choosing each time the other item:
1. How many men were in Jesus' tomb when the women arrived?
If you choose 1, the answer is:
INCORRECT!

Luke 24:4 states that there were two men dressed in shining garments in the tomb.
If you choose 2, the answer is:
INCORRECT!

Mark 16:5 states that there was one man dressed in white in the tomb.

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[glo]

Greetings,

I did it and got zero out of twenty!

I'm ranked as "clueless"!

That's the worst I've ever done on any test in my life!

:rollseyes

Peace

Clueless? You??? Never! ;D

Ofcourse, the point is that the questionnaire points out differences in the gospel accounts. So whichever question you choose, you will always come away with 'nil point' :giggling:

Non-Christians like to point these out, and thereby conclude that the Bible is not trustworthy.
For me as a Christian it is entirely irrelevant.
Unlike the Qu'ran, which has it's origin in one man only, the Bible consists of many books, and has it's origin in many people, living over a long period of time.
Those inconsistencies are caused by different individuals telling the same story at different times, to different audiences, with different emphasis. (Hey, you are the Englsih teacher, aren't you? What's the plural of 'emphasis'?)
For me that neither means it is not God's word through the mouths of man, nor that the Gospel is not trustworthy.

Tiresome as it may be, people like to quote these things, and I have to put up with it ... :rollseyes

Peace.

[Mohsin]

It always show 0 answers correct.
I took two times the test, choosing each time the other item:
1. How many men were in Jesus' tomb when the women arrived?
If you choose 1, the answer is:
INCORRECT!

Luke 24:4 states that there were two men dressed in shining garments in the tomb.
If you choose 2, the answer is:
INCORRECT!

Mark 16:5 states that there was one man dressed in white in the tomb.

Yes thats the point, it shows how the bible can't be the word of god, or inspired by god, as it contains numerous contradictions as shown in the quiz. feel free to refute them. I just came accross it as interesting, Br. azim showed it to me, it's interesting to see if any of our CXhristian friends here can answer these mistakes

[Mohsin]

Clueless? You??? Never! ;D

Ofcourse, the point is that the questionnaire points out differences in the gospel accounts. So whichever question you choose, you will always come away with 'nil point' :giggling:

Non-Christians like to point these out, and thereby conclude that the Bible is not trustworthy.
For me as a Christian it is entirely irrelevant.
Unlike the Qu'ran, which has it's origin in one man only, the Bible consists of many books, and has it's origin in many people, living over a long period of time.
Those inconsistencies are caused by different individuals telling the same story at different times, to different audiences, with different emphasis. (Hey, you are the Englsih teacher, aren't you? What's the plural of 'emphasis'?)
For me that neither means it is not God's word through the mouths of man, nor that the Gospel is not trustworthy.

Tiresome as it may be, people like to quote these things, and I have to put up with it ... :rollseyes

Peace.

Thats a good answer i see your perspective. But why would God allow there to be such confusion? thats what i ask when my christian friends say as you have said. Surely god would make it easy for everyone to understand his clear and concise message. For example, as you say with the Qur'an, it went directly to Prophet Muhammed PBUH, so why didn't God do this before as he would surely have known men were going to give incorrect contradicting narrations later.
As the Bible is meant to be guidance, surely it should be error free, to prove its divinity from God himself, as the Qur'an is. Do you see where i'm coming from?

Salam

[glo]

:sl:

I been meaning to put this link up for a while but haven't.

Its a quiz about the Bible, and how it contains contradictions. I warn you before hand it is very "in your face".

http://exchristian.net/3/

Hi Moss

Some people devote their entire lives trying to discredit other people's faiths ... are you one of them? :rollseyes
There may be sites which aim to discredit Islam and the Qu'ran. Truth is, I don't know, I have never looked.
Why should I even want to?
Why do you want to?

Questions, questions ... :)

Peace. :thankyou:

[Mohsin]

Hi Moss

Some people devote their entire lives trying to discredit other people's faiths ... are you one of them? :rollseyes
There may be sites which aim to discredit Islam and the Qu'ran. Truth is, I don't know, I have never looked.
Why should I even want to?
Why do you want to?

Questions, questions ... :)

Peace. :thankyou:

Firstly i genuinely want to know what Christians say with regards to these clear contradictions.
Secondly, i wouldn't say i want to discredit other people's faiths. I believe there has only been one faith, Islam, sent to all the prophets, including Jesus PBUH. However p[eople changed and distorted the teachings later. Now if i knew islam was the truth, wouldn't i want it for other poeople such as yourself?
Also, a lot of people say the Bible is the word of/inspired by god. Being a beliuever myself i find it...let's say insulting that God could make such errors. So let's just say i'm defending God's great infinite power, trying to prove he's error-free

Peace :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Clueless? You??? Never! ;D

Maybe if I was a bit more awake today I would have spotted the trick!

I thought there was something fishy going on, cause I was certain some of my guesses were right...

Non-Christians like to point these out, and thereby conclude that the Bible is not trustworthy.

I suppose it depends if you want to see it as a historical text or not. The contrasting accounts are definitely one reason why I find the Bible suspect, but I can appreciate the fact that you accept it.

Those inconsistencies are caused by different individuals telling the same story at different times, to different audiences, with different emphasis. (Hey, you are the Englsih teacher, aren't you? What's the plural of 'emphasis'?)

No, I'm an English teacher. Tut tut. ;)

It's 'emphases' (Pronounced em-fa-seez).

For me that neither means it is not God's word through the mouths of man, nor that the Gospel is not trustworthy.

So if god spoke through man, presumably god wouldn't have made a mistake or contradicted himself, so do the contradictions arise due to the fault of man, do you think?

Peace

[Mohsin]

So if god spoke through man, presumably god wouldn't have made a mistake or contradicted himself, so do the contradictions arise due to the fault of man, do you think?

Peace

yeah i think thats what most Christians say. but like i said earlier, why would God allow his final and ultimate revlation to become corrupt?

[glo]

Thats a good answer i see your perspective. But why would God allow there to be such confusion? thats what i ask when my christian friends say as you have said. Surely god would make it easy for everyone to understand his clear and concise message. For example, as you say with the Qur'an, it went directly to Prophet Muhammed PBUH, so why didn't God do this before as he would surely have known men were going to give incorrect contradicting narrations later.
As the Bible is meant to be guidance, surely it should be error free, to prove its divinity from God himself, as the Qur'an is. Do you see where i'm coming from?

Salam

Dear Moss

I will not enter into a lengthy debate here. I have a birthday cake to bake! :)

God's word works at a higher level than some set of instructions. I believe it to speak truth to my heart on a daily basis. The same Bible passage, if I read it today, may speak to me differently than it did two months ago.
I believe the Bible to be God's word by faith, and I see it affect and instruct my life on a daily basis.
God's word is not like the Highway Code. Muslims seem to treat the Qu'ran very differently, and therefore don't understand the Bible.

That's really all I can say on this topic. :rollseyes
Perhaps other people have better contributions to make.

Peace.

[Mohsin]

Dear Moss


. I believe it to speak truth to my heart on a daily basis. The same Bible passage, if I read it today, may speak to me differently than it did two months ago.
I believe the Bible to be God's word by faith, and I see it affect and instruct my life on a daily basis.

hmm thats what i get confused about. how do you know which parts are Gods words? How do you know this part here isn't a part mistranslated or written in by historians? Yopu could be taking incorrect guidance from mere men

[glo]

No, I'm an English teacher. Tut tut. ;)

:giggling:
You got me there! If ever you need any advice in German ...

It's 'emphases' (Pronounced em-fa-seez).

Thanks! :)

[glo]

Firstly i genuinely want to know what Christians say with regards to these clear contradictions.
Secondly, i wouldn't say i want to discredit other people's faiths. I believe there has only been one faith, Islam, sent to all the prophets, including Jesus PBUH. However p[eople changed and distorted the teachings later. Now if i knew islam was the truth, wouldn't i want it for other poeople such as yourself?
Also, a lot of people say the Bible is the word of/inspired by god. Being a beliuever myself i find it...let's say insulting that God could make such errors. So let's just say i'm defending God's great infinite power, trying to prove he's error-free

Peace :)

I can see that you love your religion, and have a calling to spread the word. I respect that.
We just have to agree to disagree! :statisfie

peace.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace Moss,

I took the quiz a second time and got zero both times, and that did not surprise me. I answered Jesus carried the cross to Golgotha the first time, and I answered Simon carried the cross to Golgotha the second time, both were the correct answer as each of them carried the cross some of the way towards Golgotha.

Each Gospel was recording a part of the journey and was correct as the author saw the event, so were is the contradiction in that?

In fact it is your quiz that carries contradictions because it marked both answers wrong, when in fact both answers were right.

I suppose it amused someone to make the quiz, but I don’t think it was done in a fair Islamic way.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith tolerance

Eric

[Mohsin]

I suppose it amused someone to make the quiz, but I don’t think it was done in a fair Islamic way.


Eric

Its not an islamic quiz. Its by ex-christians. i pointed it out before hand what the quiz was about, pointing out apparent contradictions. thankyou for explainibg that particular contradiction

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace Moss,

I made the comment about the quiz not being done in a fair Islamic way, because I would not expect Muslims to put any trust in something that was done in a deceitful way.

If a dozen people went independently to a day long festival then went home and wrote about what they saw, it stands to reason that they could write all kinds of things truthfully.

Someone reading all these accounts could possibly think they were talking about different events.

In the spirit of seeking truth.

Eric

[Mohsin]

Greetings and peace Moss,

I made the comment about the quiz not being done in a fair Islamic way, because I would not expect Muslims to put any trust in something that was done in a deceitful way.

Eric

well i don't know if it's deceitful or not, i'm hoping you fellow christians can prove it is lieing. So far you've refuted one.

Peace

[azim]

No, I'm an English teacher. Tut tut. ;)

It's 'emphases' (Pronounced em-fa-seez).

Emphasis has plural!!! Woah, I find this quite shocking.

[glo]

So if god spoke through man, presumably god wouldn't have made a mistake or contradicted himself, so do the contradictions arise due to the fault of man, do you think?

Peace

It's me again.
I had to ponder that question all the way to the shops and back. :rollseyes

Imagine I had a vision from God. How would he converse with me? In English? German? Aramaic?
I don't know, but I believe that God would speak directly to my soul, or into my heart, at a spiritual level, whatever you want to call it.
The next day, I want to tell people about it: "CZGibson, imagine what?! God spoke to me last night ...!" But to pass on God's message it has to be processed by my human brain, and put into human words to express God's words in human terms.
Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.
However, despite this people believe that the message (inside the human words) remains to be from God and is relevant and true ... always!

It's the best way I can put it, I think.
What do you make of it?

Peace.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But to pass on God's message it has to be processed by my human brain, and put into human words to express God's words in human terms.[/I]
Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.

This is how I imagined you might respond.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.

I could be wrong (and there are plenty of people here who can correct me if I am!), but I think Muslims believe that Allah dictated the Qur'an through Gabriel to Muhammad (pbuh) in Arabic, so Arabic is a special language in Islam. The Qur'an is supposed to be god's word, direct, word for word. (If a Muslim member can confirm this, that would be great.)

However, despite this people believe that the message (inside the human words) remains to be from God and is relevant and true ... always!

I can accept that. The factual details may be at variance with one another occasionally, but the Christian moral message is generally clear. I say 'generally' because of the obvious differences between Old and New Testament morality.

It's the best way I can put it, I think.
What do you make of it?

As you'd expect, me being an atheist, my own view of divine inspiration is different from yours, but thank you for clarifying what it is you believe.

Peace

[Trumble]

For me as a Christian it is entirely irrelevant.

For me as a non-Christian, it is too. None of those contradictions (which they certainly seem to be) are of any importance, or relevance to the real message of the Gospels. In other words, who cares if they carried a staff, or not? What difference does it make to the teachings of Jesus? Those are what are important, not trivia.

[glo]

For me as a non-Christian, it is too. None of those contradictions (which they certainly seem to be) are of any importance, or relevance to the real message of the Gospels. In other words, who cares if they carried a staff, or not? What difference does it make to the teachings of Jesus? Those are what are important, not trivia.

Thanks for your reply, Trumble.
BTW, I like your lotus flower. :)

Peace.

[Tania]

If i understood correct this contradictions could have the root in the fact they were written 70 years laters after when they happened. Off course, after 70 years the human brain is giving errors.

[Mohsin]

Hard as I may try, yes, I believe I would weaken God's words.

So, if that's what you were asking, yes, a divine message will be weakened in some way when it is given through the mouth of humans. Presumably that has to be true of the Bible as well as the Qu'ran.
.

In islam its different. Allah used gabriel to convey the message to Muhammed PBUH, and it was written down and the companions learnt it off by heart. This ensured it never changed, to save it from human errors. (Hope that clarifies CzGibson)

Can i ask though, if you honestly believe and accept there to be errors in the Bible, why do you believe God allowed it to happen?

Peace

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace Moss,

Whilst the Bible is written by many people, I believe that God retained the power to edit the Bible in the way that he desired. It is for each one of us who reads the Bible to search for his message and strive to live by his commands.

If you have a need to read the Bible then I humbly suggest that you search for a greatest good meaning when you read it. If you read it with the intention of searching for contradictions and lies then you will gain very little.

You may just be challenging God’s word.

If you do not believe in the Bible which is understandable for a Muslim, you might spend your time more beneficially by searching for a greatest meaning by reading about your own faith.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

[azim]

If i understood correct this contractions could have the root in the fact they were written 70 years laters after when they happened. Off course, after 70 years the human brain is giving errors.

As Muslims, we see these errors as being indications that although the Bible had divine origins - it has human error - and thus it is not possible to verify that its teachings are free from the same error. ('Teachings' referring to divinity of Christ, Crucifixion and most importantly - the Holy Trinity).

I understand the Christian POV - correct me if I am wrong - which is that since many authors wrote the Bible, it isn't possible to have complete agreement over details.

My argument is the argument given in the Quran: -

"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you seek guidance". Respond to them: "No, I would rather the religion of Abraham, the truthful, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah!" Say: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to all the Prophets by their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah submissivley".

[Woodrow]

The most common error made in Religious debates is to attempt to prove the other person's sources are wrong.

Stop and think. If a person were to prove the Bible to be 100% wrong, in terms acceptable by all. That would not prove that the Qur'an is true. nor would it be acceptable proof that Christianity is wrong.

I think we need to concentrate more on showing the truth of the Qur'an. there is plenty of histoical and scientific evidence.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

My argument is the argument given in the Quran: -

"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you seek guidance". Respond to them: "No, I would rather the religion of Abraham, the truthful, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah!" Say: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to all the Prophets by their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah submissivley".

Sorry for going off-topic, but I'm confused by this verse and I hope someone can help me. Is the idea that Muslims should respond to proselytiseing Jews and Christians by saying they would rather commit shirk, the most serious sin in Islam, than follow those faiths?

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

Sorry for going off-topic, but I'm confused by this verse and I hope someone can help me. Is the idea that Muslims should respond to proselytiseing Jews and Christians by saying they would rather commit shirk, the most serious sin in Islam, than follow those faiths?

Peace

Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards

[Mohsin]

Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards

LOL ROFL azim you joker! ;D Trust you eh!

[azim]

Hi Callum,
It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Regards

Asalaamu alaykum.

Yeh, my fault. :X I was typing it up from a written copy rather than copying and pasting. May Allah forgive me. Sorry guys.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

It seems Azim accidently didn't paste in a [crucial!] phrase in the verse. I've added it in, in red. Abraham did NOT commit shirk, that is what the Qur'an is saying.

Thanks for clearing that one up, Ansar. I couldn't believe what I was reading!

Don't worry, Azim, we all make mistakes - remember to say thanks to Ansar!

Peace

[Nicola]

:sl:

I been meaning to put this link up for a while but haven't.

Its a quiz about the Bible, and how it contains contradictions. I warn you before hand it is very "in your face".

http://exchristian.net/3/

No need to take the quiz now...I know the outcome...:okay:

Seriously it doesn't matter to me...all that matters to me...is whats been placed in my heart it's something I can't deny.

[azim]

Seriously it doesn't matter to me...all that matters to me...is whats been placed in my heart it's something I can't deny.

I feel the same way about the layers of oil that have built up due to chicken wings :p

[Nicola]

I feel the same way about the layers of oil that have built up due to chicken wings :p

mmmmmmmmm I love them too....:happy:

[primitivefuture]

How is KFC in the UK?

[Nicola]

How is KFC in the UK?

expensive....lol though I do like the ziggers....

but I mainly use the local take away...;D southern fried chicken.....

whats it like in the USA

[primitivefuture]

cheap....but gross.

[azim]

expensive....lol though I do like the ziggers....

but I mainly use the local take away...;D southern fried chicken.....

whats it like in the USA

This is seriously off topic ... but yeh, the nice local take away which fries it's chicken wings in pure lard. Does anyone have a Dixy Chicken nearby? £3 for 12 chicken wings and £3 for two chicken burgers and two chips. That means you and a friend can get 6 chicken wings, a burger and chips for £3!!! Seriously, this is madness. Why sell such unhealthy but mouth-wateringly tasty food for so cheap! How am I meant to resist?

[Muhammad]

:sl:

From the Bible to fast food?! Perhaps that means this thread has run its course...

[Nicola]

Does anyone have a Dixy Chicken nearby? £3 for 12 chicken wings and £3 for two chicken burgers and two chips. That means you and a friend can get 6 chicken wings, a burger and chips for £3!!! Seriously, this is madness. Why sell such unhealthy but mouth-wateringly tasty food for so cheap! How am I meant to resist?

yessssssssssss I have the chicken wings..
I didn't realise they where done in lard though..yuk
are you sure it's lard...because lard to me is pigs fat.

[azim]

:sl:

From the Bible to fast food?! Perhaps that means this thread has run its course...

Lol, looks like it.

[Nicola]

Lol, looks like it.

well Moss's account is closed now.... :o(

[Woodrow]

Originally Posted by azim
My argument is the argument given in the Quran: -

"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if you seek guidance". Respond to them: "No, I would rather the religion of Abraham, the truthful, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah!" Say: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to all the Prophets by their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah submissivley".

Greetings,


Sorry for going off-topic, but I'm confused by this verse and I hope someone can help me. Is the idea that Muslims should respond to proselytiseing Jews and Christians by saying they would rather commit shirk, the most serious sin in Islam, than follow those faiths?

Peace

The true message was not shirk. That which was revealed to Abraham and the rest of the Prophets (Peace be upon them) was and is still true. It is only later people turned from the True message.

[NJUSA]

I think a similar quiz on Islamic texts could be created, where between abrogated verses of the Qur'an, and contradictory interpretations of Prophetic traditions and Qur'anic verses, there would be no right answer between two options. Religious traditions are complex and nuanced. There may be one "right" answer, or one hundred right answers. If it brings you closer to God, it's right enough for me.

[azim]

I think a similar quiz on Islamic texts could be created, where between abrogated verses of the Qur'an, and contradictory interpretations of Prophetic traditions and Qur'anic verses, there would be no right answer between two options. Religious traditions are complex and nuanced. There may be one "right" answer, or one hundred right answers. If it brings you closer to God, it's right enough for me.

I don't think one could be created regarding abrogated verses to be honest.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think a similar quiz on Islamic texts could be created, where between abrogated verses of the Qur'an, and contradictory interpretations of Prophetic traditions and Qur'anic verses, there would be no right answer between two options. Religious traditions are complex and nuanced. There may be one "right" answer, or one hundred right answers. If it brings you closer to God, it's right enough for me.

There have been many alleged contradictions, but all of them have been refuted easily:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions

:w:

[NJUSA]

I did not say that there were contradictions in any sacred text; what I said was what could appear to be contradictions could be drawn from any sacred text. Sacred texts cover a broad spectrum of topics, and often unfold against a considerable historical backdrop. Different issues may be approached from more than one perspective, and the transformations that the religious community underwent show in the text, giving rise to a highly nuanced document, and the accusations of contradictions emerge when those unaware of or unwilling to respect the subtleties of sacred texts seek either clarification, or more likely in the case of these ex-Christians, to throw us a red herring.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Different issues may be approached from more than one perspective, and the transformations that the religious community underwent show in the text, giving rise to a highly nuanced document, and the accusations of contradictions emerge when those unaware of or unwilling to respect the subtleties of sacred texts seek either clarification, or more likely in the case of these ex-Christians, to throw us a red herring.

Not necessarily the case. What Christians call 'copyist errors' are not denied by anyone, but rather explained to be the mistakes of scribes. While some legal rulings in these scriptures, need to be examined in detail for the correct interpretation this does not negate simple logical contradictions. Many of the previous posters in this thread have not denied contradictions in some details, but they have explained them to be insignificant when it comes to religious practice.

[NJUSA]

What precisely are you on about?

[root]

There have been many alleged contradictions, but all of them have been refuted easily:

I think the key word here is "many" and of course your statement applies to the Bible equally. Firstly, the current thread which discusses what was claimed as a "miracle" is not entirely endorsed by muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ven-skies.html

Secondly, did anyone notice how quickly this question dropped of the forum without an "easy refute":

Assalaamu aleykum.

Some kuffar claims that this Hadith contradicts modern DNA and genetics studies. I'll insha'Allaah paste the whole Hadith here, and make the statement of concern in bold.

Narrated Anas:

When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." 'Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and 'Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then 'Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him." - Sahih al-Bukhaari

Please give some explanation of this insha'Allaah. Jazakum Allaah khayr.

Alas, it appears the call for help fell onto deaf ears

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think the key word here is "many" and of course your statement applies to the Bible equally. Firstly, the current thread which discusses what was claimed as a "miracle" is not entirely endorsed by muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ven-skies.html

Not related to alleged contradictions.

Secondly, did anyone notice how quickly this question dropped of the forum without an "easy refute":

Alas, it appears the call for help fell onto deaf ears

First of all, and most importantly, this is not related to alleged contradictions in the Qur'an - this is hadith. Secondly,I couldn't find the thread you took this from, and it often happens that I miss a thread. That's doesn't mean there are no answers for it, as you should know well since you asked me the same question and I responded to it in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...mbryology.html

Regards

[root]

Good deflective answers Ansar, your ability to answer questions without actually answering the core issues never fail to amuse me.

If you missed the thread then here it is.

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...-genetics.html

[Joe98]

it shows how the bible can't be the word of god, or inspired by god, as it contains numerous contradictions as shown in the quiz. feel free to refute them. I just came accross it as interesting, Br. azim showed it to me, it's interesting to see if any of our Christian friends here can answer these mistakes

In was a witness to a criminal smashing the window of a jewlery shop. The crimnals had a car and I memorised the number plate.

I waited about 10 mins till the police arrived and reported the number. Another witness reported a different number.

Thanks for clearing that one up, Ansar. Don't worry, Azim, we all make mistakes - remember to say thanks to Ansar!

Peace

We are humans and make mistakes. Different humans wrote the different Gospels and had different memories of the facts.

The Christain belief is that Christ died. And that he rose from the dead. Tell me whether all the Gospels say this or whether they deviate on this point.

-










-

[azim]

In was a witness to a criminal smashing the window of a jewlery shop. The crimnals had a car and I memorised the number plate.

I waited about 10 mins till the police arrived and reported the number. Another witness reported a different number.

We are humans and make mistakes. Different humans wrote the different Gospels and had different memories of the facts.

The Christain belief is that Christ died. And that he rose from the dead. Tell me whether all the Gospels say this or whether they deviate on this point.

-

You're kinda missing the point dude.

[Joe98]

Then please telll me what you believe is the point.

-

[akulion]

thanks for the quiz - its nice :)

[جوري]

bump.. interesting thread..
always good to go through the archives :)

If you missed the thread then here it is.

And your point being?

For me that neither means it is not God's word through the mouths of man, nor that the Gospel is not trustworthy

:lol: what other conclusion can there be?
best,

[Muhammad Yahya]

Assalam.o.Alaikum,
With Due Respect, I Think We Must Talk About Similarities In Islam And Christianity. I Am Saying This Dr. Abdul Karim zakir Naik Always Talk About Similarities.
JazakaALLAH.
:sl:

[جوري]

:wa:
why must we? I see far more similarities between Christianity and paganism than Christianity and Islam.

When I think of Christians this man comes to mind:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1852739.html

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Muhammad Yahya; welcome to the forum

With Due Respect, I Think We Must Talk About Similarities In Islam And Christianity.

I agree, the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God.

Eric

[MustafaMc]

I agree, the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences.

Peaceful greetings to you Eric H. Yes, we both believe in One God even though we have our significant difference in belief about Jesus. I am sometimes puzzled by how little it seems that Muhammad (saaws) had interacted with Christians as compared to Jews, but how often the Qur'an mentions the Christian belief about Jesus not being the Son of God or literally God Himself with the strongest condemnation even more so than the rampant idolatry of the Meccan Arabs. Do you have any insight into the obvious seriousness with which the Qur'an addresses the Christian faith?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

The Jews are God’s chosen people, God chooses people to be followers of Christ (Christians), and God also chooses people through Islam, but why would the same God apparently set up three conflicting religions? The same God has given each of us many of the same prophets, and the same God has also giving each of us some real conflicting scriptures.

If God first chose you through Christianity, then through Islam, then who am I that I should try and change you back to Christianity, if God has set you on your path. It seems that God has set us the task to strive to get on with each other despite all our differences. I am commanded to love my neighbours as I love myself, but If my neighbours are Muslim, Christian, Atheist and Hindu, then which of these are the neighbours that I should love?

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

Eric H, I am honored that you consider me as your friend amd I consider you as my friend.

The Jews are God’s chosen people, God chooses people to be followers of Christ (Christians), and God also chooses people through Islam, but why would the same God apparently set up three conflicting religions? The same God has given each of us many of the same prophets, and the same God has also giving each of us some real conflicting scriptures.

I consider that the Jews were (not are) chosen based on the righteousness of Abraham to have received the lion's share of prophets and revelations over time, but it remains to be seen how much of that promise will hold through on Judgement Day. I believe that God is just and fair to provide guidance to the Gentile as well as the Jew and that to be 'chosen' is not for a specific race, but for the individual - hence my name which means 'chosen'. Whether or not God chose Christianity for you and Islam for me or not yet remains to be seen, but I do believe that He willed it to be. Another perspective is that one of us has been misguided by Satan and that our respective scripture and religion is a corruption of truth.

If God first chose you through Christianity, then through Islam, then who am I that I should try and change you back to Christianity, if God has set you on your path. It seems that God has set us the task to strive to get on with each other despite all our differences. I am commanded to love my neighbours as I love myself, but If my neighbours are Muslim, Christian, Atheist and Hindu, then which of these are the neighbours that I should love?

On this I completely agree and it brings to mind an ayat Qur'an 49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware. I believe that guidance comes only from God and that it can't be imposed from outside because if it doesn't come from the heart, then what good is it? Having gone through a change of faith, I know this better than most. No one could have forced me to become a Muslim, nor could I even have willed it to be. That spark of faith almost 30 years ago caused an irreversible paradigm shift and I believe that it came from God. In a similar manner, I am certain that you have personal experiences that cause you to believe that your Christian faith comes from God. In the end, yes, we are both commanded to be kind and merciful to our neighbor along the lines of the Good Samaritan parable. I can vouch for you that you have been a role model for us all to follow. In this respect you remind me of my friend, Snakelegs, who I believe became a Muslim before her death. I will be honest with you and say that I wish you, too, will soon become a Muslim.

[Aprender]

I believe that guidance comes only from God and that it can't be imposed from outside because if it doesn't come from the heart, then what good is it?

I agree with this brother Mustafa. One reason I was holding onto my Christian faith for so long, even after I had stopped believing in it after years of research, was through cultural traditions and fear of changes. So many of my family members had passed away before me following Christianity and for me it just didn't seem right to let go of that legacy. Even though I realized that for me, Christianity as it was taught in this day and age wasn't exactly quite right. I had faith. I knew I believed that there was only one God. I had experiences that led me to be sure of that that but just because I was following Christianity didn't mean I was worshiping that God in the way that He wanted to be worshiped. Reading my Bible really opened my eyes to what I was doing wrong. I had to find excuses for myself to just keep holding onto Christianity and then just hoping for the best in the hereafter because it just didn't seem right to change over. Especially with pressure from other Christian family members saying Satan was deceiving me and to just have faith. I had faith and it was telling me something was wrong...but I ignored it.

Until after a while it became too much to me, to try and force myself to follow and believe something that I knew had many problems. I got tired of forcing it on myself. Forcing myself to believe something I do not. And then I began my search into other religions.

[Insaanah]

Greetings Eric,

I remember you have used this reasoning many times before, that God chose you through Christianity and us through Islam etc, and I recall that brother Ramadhan (formerly Naidamar) explained to you on most of those occasions why that reasoning was wrong. Here are a few of them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1479364
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1479395
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1479518
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1464256
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1464269
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1442447

The Jews are God’s chosen people

Were. But their repeated disobedience and rejection of the Prophets means they no longer are.

He has ordained for you the same religion that He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and that which We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him]. (Qur'an 42:13)

And from the last sermon delivered by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):

All mankind is from Adam and Eve - an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

God chooses people to be followers of Christ (Christians)

I must respectfully disagree.

God does not choose ways of error for anyone. That would be ascribing injustice to God, that He chooses a way for people and then condemns them for it. Believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son of God has been described by Allah as a calumny and in the most strongest of terms in the Qur'an (19:88-93). God has given us free will to choose whatever path we wish, while making clear to us which is the right one. The path you choose is a conscious decision made by you, for we are given intelligence by God to observe, to think, to evaluate evidence, and to conclude. We believe in free will and predestination together, not one or the other.

Those whose inner hearts incline to the truth and seek it, Allah guides and helps them. Some accept Islam immediately, some continue on their quest for truth and accept it later, and some oppose it first then accept it later. Those who despite being presented with evidence, and given the message, decide not to embrace that truth, and Allah knows that they will not, then Allah keeps them as they are, astray. As such, Allah's guiding people or sending astray has been mentioned in the Qur'an many times. He knows who to guide and who not to, and ultimately guidance is in His hands.

The point that you make above reminds me of this verse:

Those who took partners (in worship) with Allah will say: "If Allah had willed, we would not have taken partners (in worship) with Him, nor would our fathers, and we would not have forbidden anything (against His Will)." So did those before them argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying." Say - For Allah's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you.(6:148-149)

The full version of towards understanding the Qur'an by S.A.Maududi has this explanatory footnote (adapted):

Their apology for their misdeeds or wrong beliefs would be that which has always been advanced by such people - an apology based on the assumption of absolute determinism. They would plead that when they associated others with God in His divinity, or unwarrantedly regarded certain things as prohibited, they did so because those acts had been willed for them by God. Had He not so willed, they would not have been able to do what they did. Hence, since they were doing everything according to the will of God, everything was proper. If anyone was to blame, it was God and not they. They were under compulsion to do what they did, for the ability to do otherwise lay beyond their power.

▲125. This provides a complete refutation of their apology. In order to appreciate it fully, careful analysis is required. In the first place they are told that citing God's will to justify one's errors and misdeeds, and making it a pretext for refusing to accept true guidance was the practice of the evil-doers before them. But they should remember that this had led to their ruin and they themselves were witnesses to the evil consequences of deviation from the Truth.
Furthermore, it is being clarified that the plea of the unbelievers that the only reason for their error was that God had not willed that they be guided to the Truth, is based on fancy and conjecture rather than on sound knowledge. They refer to God's will without understanding the relationship between God's will and man's action. They entertain the misconception that if a man commits theft under the will of God, that means that he will not be reckoned a criminal. For the fact is that whichever path a man chooses, be it that of gratitude or ungratitude to God of guidance or error, obedience or disobedience, God will open that path for him, and thereafter God will permit and enable him within the framework of His universal scheme, and to the extent that He deems fit - to do whatever he chooses to do whether it is right or wrong.
If their forefathers had been enabled by God's will to associate others with Him in His divinity and prohibit clean things, that did not mean that they were not answerable for their misdeeds. On the contrary, everyone will be held responsible for choosing false ways, for having a false intent, and for having striven for false ends.
The crucial point is succinctly made at the end in the words: 'Then say to- them, (As against your argument) Allah's is the conclusive argument. Surely, had He willed, He would have guided you all to the Truth.' The argument which they put forward, viz. 'If Allah had willed, neither we nor our forefathers could have associated others with Allah in His divinity', does not embody the whole truth. The whole truth is that 'had He willed, He would have guided you all to the Truth'. In other words, they were not prepared to take the Straight Way of their own choice and volition. As it was not God's intent to create them with inherent right guidance like the angels, they would be allowed to persist in the error they had chosen for themselves.

A similar verse has this footnote:

That is, your argument is not a new one but the same old one which had always been offered by erroneous people who went before you. Today you are, like them, excusing yourselves for your deviation and beliefs, saying that it is the will of God. You know that this is a lame excuse that has been invented to delude yourselves, and to escape from admonition.

but why would the same God apparently set up three conflicting religions?

He didn't. There was only ever one religion that every Prophet preached, and that was Islam. I'll re-quote here the verse I quoted above:

He has ordained for you the same religion that He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and that which We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him]. (42:13)

Allah says in the verse that He has ordained for us the same way; there were never any other ways apart from that. To submit to the command of God wholeheartedly, to worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in His Divinity, and to obey the Prophet. All the Prophets taught the same thing.

Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me. (21:25)

And indeed it has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW), as it was to those (Allah's Messengers) before you: "If you join others in worship with Allah, (then) surely (all) your deeds will be in vain, and you will certainly be among the losers." (36:95)

And ask those We sent before you of Our messengers; have We made besides the Most Merciful deities to be worshipped? (43:45)

Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you... (41:43, part)

We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. (4:64, part)

None taught that he was divine or was son of God:

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be worshippers of me apart from Allah ," (3:79, part)

And he commanded you not that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords. Would he command you to disbelieve after you had surrendered (to Allah)? (3:80)

If you look carefully at the name Islam, you'll find that it is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning. Islam is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all).

the same God has also giving each of us some real conflicting scriptures.

I disagree here too. The original scriptures sent down by God were not conflicting. How could they be, when the message is the same? In fact the Qur'an doesn't state that it conflicts with the earlier scriptures, but that it confirms the truth of what was in the original earlier scriptures sent by God, and that it comes clearing misconceptions and wrong beliefs that had been introduced and written by man in the earlier books. The core belief and creed, that we should submit wholeheartedly to the command of God, worhip Him and Him alone without any associates in His Divinity, and that we should obey the Prophet, have always been the same, while small ancillary rules may have differed.

It seems that God has set us the task to strive to get on with each other despite all our differences.

Our task is also to share with you what we know to be the truth. We pray that one day you will accept it.

Peace.

[MustafaMc]

So many of my family members had passed away before me following Christianity and for me it just didn't seem right to let go of that legacy.

Assalamu alaikum, sister. My brother said something similar to me when I talked to him about Islam.

[MustafaMc]

Some accept Islam immediately, some continue on their quest for truth and accept it later, and some oppose it first then accept it later.

When I was a senior in college, during Christmas break I read portions of the Qur'an about Jesus, Mary, and other people I knew from the Bible and at first I disbelieved because it said Jesus was not the Son of God. I kept reading anyway and then it was like a light bulb suddenly coming on when I saw that the Qur'an made more sense than what I believed as a Christian. Do you find it strange for someone to become a Muslim after reading only a few ayat of the Qur'an?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

I pray that we might all have eternal salvation, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God

Eric

[جوري]

Do you find it strange for someone to become a Muslim after reading only a few ayat of the Qur'an?

I have heard all kinds of odd conversion stories. One in particular that touched me was of an Egyptian captain we knew personally, he managed to convert the ambassador of Spain with a couple of verses on constellations and ended up marrying his daughter.. unfortunately she passed away a couple of years ago. Allah yer7mha. Her father converted first though and she a few years after..

[MustafaMc]

I have heard all kinds of odd conversion stories.

Assalamu alaikum, sister. Perhaps I have written before about how I came across a Qur'an and a desire to read it. If so, then here it is again.

In January 1981 I was a senior in college and had a double-bed dormitory room without a room mate. One day I had a knock on my door and this guy told me that he was from Iran and that no one would accept him as his room mate. He asked if he could be my room mate and I said, "Yes". Some people here may be too young to remember, but this was during the time when Iran was holding some Americans from the embassy hostage. To reflect the level of animosity against Iran, I heard more than once, "Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark." Shortly after this the hostages were released and the animosity on campus toward Iran eased. He was my room mate that spring and again in the fall. We would occassionally discuss religion, but in no great detail. Then that Christmas break I took his Qur'an home to see more about what he believed.

I have often wondered if my positive answer to his question was why Allah (swt) opened my heart to Islam.

[Aprender]

Assalamu alaikum, sister. My brother said something similar to me when I talked to him about Islam.

Yeah. But I wondered. Why is it that no one in my family bothered to look into Christianity to see if it even made sense to begin with? Why pass off this religion to your children without having investigated it first to make sure it made sense and was right? It's a serious thing. I know some atheists who even allow their children to learn about the different religions. Parents check out schools & babysitters before they send their children to them so why not look into the religion too for those who have faith and believe in a Creator?

But to choose a religion just because all of your family members before you died in it when you knew something else out there was right, to me that suggests that you love those family members more than you care about obeying the Creator...

[glo]

I pray that we might all have eternal salvation, despite all our differences.

That is my prayer too, Eric. God bless you for your ongoing and enduring interfaith efforts. :)

[glo]

With Due Respect, I Think We Must Talk About Similarities In Islam And Christianity.

I agree.
If we truly follow our teachings on serving God by worshipping Him; by caring for his creation; by being kind and charitable towards our neighbours; by caring for those in need, then we can make this world an infinitely better place!

4 billion people across this world claim to be Muslims or Christians. If we all obeyed God's commandments, what a difference we could make!

However, it seems that many of us spend most of our energy and resources on fighting each other and disagreeing on our differences. What a waste!

Why not leave the last judgement to our creator and - in the meantime - do the right thing for each other by showing each other respect, love and care?

[Insaanah]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

I pray that we might all have eternal salvation, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God

Eric

Greetings Eric,

I pray that you will open your heart to the truth, and reflect on the messages you've had over the years, reflect on how Allah guided you to the forum, and enabled you to be of those fortunate enough to receive His message, on different occasions, in different ways, and from different people, and reflect on the fact there cannot be lots of opposing and contradictory truths that lead to the path of salvation, from a Just and Merciful and Wise God.

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood...? (3:71, part)

Allah is the Truth:

That is because Allah is the Truth, and that which they call upon other than Him is falsehood, and because Allah is the Most High, the Grand. (22:62)

And there is only One God:

And your god is one God. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. (2:163)

Allah is the truth and there is only one God, so only one truth.

No doubt, salvation is only through Gods Mercy, but we must also strive, in our beliefs and in our actions. It's not enough to pray that God grants salvation to everyone despite our differences, but then not to do anything about it, and not be prepared to make the change. As sister Aprender said, it is a big change, but it is something you have to do for yourself. When we go into our graves, nobody is going to come with us, and we will be entirely responsible and answerable for ourselves.

Even Muslims, we cannot just say "We believe" and then just pray for salvation without striving and doing deeds. Then how much more so for those who are not yet Muslim, but pray to achieve salvation, yet are wanting to keep on the familiar road they are on, and not wanting to or do not feel able to, make the change? The change to the way of all the people mentioned below, who will be familiar:

And We gave to him [him = Abraham], Isaac and Jacob - all of them We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias - all were of the righteous.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all of them We preferred over the worlds.
And some among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.
That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be all that they did.
Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers.
Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, "I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds." (6:84-90)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - "Worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord". And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (5:116-117)

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (3:64)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4: 171)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. (5:19)

This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that men of understanding may take heed. (14:52)

Remember the door of repentance is always open before death, but the sooner it is done, the better, as how does anyone know when death will come? By your own admission, you're not the spring bunny you once were. Time for some serious thought, I think.

I think many of us here would love to welcome you into the ummah one day, but this is not for us, but for yourself.

When I was a senior in college, during Christmas break I read portions of the Qur'an about Jesus, Mary, and other people I knew from the Bible and at first I disbelieved because it said Jesus was not the Son of God. I kept reading anyway and then it was like a light bulb suddenly coming on when I saw that the Qur'an made more sense than what I believed as a Christian. Do you find it strange for someone to become a Muslim after reading only a few ayat of the Qur'an?

Perhaps not strange, but awe-inspiring, amazing, miraculous, and humbling. While Allah even says many times that guides whom He wishes, if you think how many people oppose Islam, and present their "rational" arguments against it, when a person embraces Islam, it is to me as Allah says He will give life to the dead, and how He makes the pasture grow after being whithered and dry, and if you add the fact that as humans we have the capacity to rebel and reject, yet still the truth was accepted after reading a few ayaat. I'm not sure exactly how one puts that in words...

[Insaanah]

Greetings.

4 billion people across this world claim to be Muslims or Christians. If we all obeyed God's commandments, what a difference we could make!

Indeed. The first of those is to not ascribe divinity to any other being than God, not to Jesus or anybody else, nor to ascribe any sons or daughters or other relatives to Him, and to worship Him and Him alone.

However, it seems that many of us spend most of our energy and resources on fighting each other and disagreeing on our differences. What a waste!

Glad no such fighting is going on here. I don't see many people fighting and disagreeing on religious differences, I see quite the opposite, be it on the forum or in the world. Most fighting in the world has other causes, such as wanting to impose your own system of government on other countries halfway round the world, even if by force, wanting to take over land, wanting to take over natural resources, wanting to cleanse unwanted people from your lands etc.

Also, please note that we cannot as Muslims, and will not, say, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good. That's not the case. We've discussed this before, very recently, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1537249. Our duty is to share what we know to be the truth.

Why not leave the last judgement to our creator and - in the meantime - do the right thing for each other by showing each other respect, love and care?

The last judgement is Gods, and no human here can ever make the last judgement, nor has anyone said they are. That is impossible for any human. We can however, and should, share the implications of associating others in God's divinity which Allah has expounded to us in the Qur'an.

Sharing the message does not mean that one is not showing respect love and care, but that our concern is not just of this world, and that we want the best for people not only in this world, but also in the hereafter. We care about what happens to them even after they die. There can be no greater care for humanity than that.

We will keep on sharing the message glo, please be under no illusion about that, and also please note carefully that it does not mean that we're not showing you respect and care, but quite the opposite.

Peace.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Also, please note that we cannot as Muslims, and will not, say, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good. That's not the case. We've discussed this before, very recently, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1537249. Our duty is to share what we know to be the truth.

To add to what sister Insaanah has said, one must be frank and honest regarding the truth. We cannot hide or water down the message, otherwise we are doing a disservice to everyone concerned. When we read the Qur'an, we find this to be its approach:

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , who has sent down upon His Servant the Book and has not made therein any deviance.

[He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward

In which they will remain forever

And to warn those who say, " Allah has taken a son."

They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie.

Then perhaps you would kill yourself through grief over them, [O Muhammad], if they do not believe in this message, [and] out of sorrow.

[Al-Kahf: 1-6]

[جوري]

I just took the quiz - wow! urge everyone to take a quiz in the OP's post especially Muslims.

:w:

[جوري]

This one should open ones eyes to more than the obvious contradictions:

The Gospel Story Quiz

Current Score: 0 out of 3 Question Number: 4

4. When Jesus and his disciples were walking toward Jerusalem after leaving Bethany that night, Jesus saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having figs. Did the tree wither immediately as they stood and watched or did it wither overnight?

It withered immediately
It withered overnight

_____________________

shouldn't the one who created the earth allegedly know not only your thoughts but what every tree bears of fruit?

Al-An'am [6:59]

وَعِندَهُ مَفَاتِحُ الْغَيْبِ لاَ يَعْلَمُهَا إِلاَّ هُوَ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَمَا تَسْقُطُ مِن وَرَقَةٍ إِلاَّ يَعْلَمُهَا وَلاَ حَبَّةٍ فِي ظُلُمَاتِ الأَرْضِ وَلاَ رَطْبٍ وَلاَ يَابِسٍ إِلاَّ فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ

WaAAindahu mafatihu alghaybi la yaAAlamuha illa huwa wayaAAlamu ma fee albarri waalbahri wama tasqutu min waraqatin illa yaAAlamuha wala habbatin fee thulumati alardi wala ratbin wala yabisin illa fee kitabin mubeenin

6:59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

[MustafaMc]

Perhaps not strange, but awe-inspiring, amazing, miraculous, and humbling. ... I'm not sure exactly how one puts that in words...

Assalamu alaikum, sister. Yes, the thought of being chosen from among millions of Christian Americans to be guided to the Truth of Islam is most indeed as you described - particularly the humbling part. In contrast to the Jews sticking their chest out in pride at being "God's Chosen People" I am overcome with emotion that I am so undeserving of that immeasurably great blessing that has been shown to me. I am reminded of the Christian song, 'Why Me Lord?' with the lyrics "Why me Lord? What have I ever done to deserve even one of the pleasures I've known? Lord, what did I ever do to deserve loving You, or the kindness You've shown?"

[MustafaMc]

Sharing the message does not mean that one is not showing respect love and care, but that our concern is not just of this world, and that we want the best for people not only in this world, but also in the hereafter. We care about what happens to them even after they die. There can be no greater care for humanity than that.

Assalamu alaikum, your words brought to mind the Pied Piper of Hamlin. If we hold the Truth (as we believe we do), would we not be heartless and uncaring to just sing the Barney song "I love you, you love me, we're a happy family..." while others are led astray to the Hellfire? Should we not do our best to share the Message and to see them saved from eternal torment? With that said, I fully agree with what you wrote, "There can be no greater care for humanity than that."

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

Also, please note that we cannot as Muslims, and will not, say, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good. That's not the case. We've discussed this before, very recently, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1537249 (American Pastor partakes in the holy month of Ramadan). Our duty is to share what we know to be the truth.

This is an Islamic forum and I would not expect any different, we also have this same attitude to truth on Christian forums, but truth and doctrine divides people.
Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Insaanah]

Greetings of peace Eric.

truth and doctrine divides people.

I disagree. Perhaps that depends on your own outlook. My neighbours are atheist on one side, and Roman Catholic on the other. We share our faith with them, explain why we believe the concept of Jesus (peace be upon him) being divine and the trinity etc is wrong, and explain using evidences from both sources, and explain what we believe to be the belief that God sent for mankind. Yet, we have very good neighbourly relations with them. They have been there for us in our times of need, as we have been for them. And Islamically, keeping good relations with our neighbours and being good to them is very important. The rights of neighbours are so important in Islam that people thought that they might also be assigned a share in inheritance, so much emphasis was placed on being good to them.

Also we have Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on our door most weeks, and we have religious discussion with them. They are people I don't know. On occasion, when there's been time, they've been invited in to sit down and for a cup of tea. Now, because we disagree on matters of faith, even if I don't know them, does that mean that if one of them fell down, that I wouldn't help them or rush to their aid and do everything I could for them?

I don't understand this view amongst some of the non-Muslims here (in this thread as well as others), that if you share what you believe to be the truth, that somehow causes division, and means that you're not willing to understand the other, not willing to explore shared values and similarities, not willing to accept the other, not willing to have good relations with them, you have no respect and care for them, and are somehow fighting them and judging them.

It is almost as though, for Muslims to be viewed in a good light, we must not talk about Islam, must not share it, must not convey the message of the Qur'an, and I see this particular pressure on Muslims only. Somehow, we must "de-Islamize", in order to be accepted as friendly citizens of society wishing to have good relations, or as mentioned in another thread, it has been suggested that we adopt the practices of other religions to prove ourselves as wanting to discover shared values. The choices seem to be, that we either keep quiet, change, dilute/water down, or amalgamate with other faiths, and at the same time as any of these, must loudly proclaim the "everything is love, we love everyone!" cause.

Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

While these things may bring people together, and are wonderful things to do, encouraged in Islam as well, religion does not divide. It informs. While in this world we may be pleased seeing people brought together (and it's good if they're helped in the process), our concern, as Muslims, is not just of this world. We'd like to see people together in the hereafter too. In a good place. And to that end, we make efforts. Just as Jesus (peace be upon him) will say to God, that he only said to people, "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord", so do we wish also to be able to say, like him, that we did our best in conveying the message accurately.

People have a right to know the true message from God, it's importance, the consequences of not following it, and that they have a choice. But that choice must be an informed choice. And even once they have made that choice, there are reminders.

Peace.

[glo]

Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

Nicely put, Eric. I agree.

Religious differences will always be there, and people will always feel the need (and calling) to discuss and debate them.
But if our desire is to make this world a better, more peaceful, more caring, more just place, then we would do better to put aside our differences, if only for the sake of pooling our energy and resources to help those who need our help.

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points. :)

Insaanah, I understand the point you are making about this being an Islamic forum with the remit of furthering Islam by teaching and informing about it. I respect that.

But if Islam teaches that it is important to be charitable and to care for those in need (and I know that it does), then is it unreasonable to suggest that Christians and Muslims (and people from other faiths) should work together towards that common goal?

[glo]

BTW, I wonder what became of Nicola? :)

[Scimitar]

You know, people who bash other religions, need their heads bashed in.

Sorry... but i'm all about tolerance. But I cant stand it when people bash other peoples faiths.

Scimi

[Insaanah]

Greetings.

But if our desire is to make this world a better, more peaceful, more caring, more just place, then we would do better to put aside our differences, if only for the sake of pooling our energy and resources to help those who need our help.

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

I see Christians (perhaps not all, but some) have a different point of view that differences must be put aside and not talked of, and if we don't, the world cannot be a better, caring place, and we cannot work together.

As Muslims, we have no such notion or restriction. We can disagree on matters of faith, and work to make the world a better place, and we feel very able to do so. As mentioned in my post, I do not agree with matters of faith with my neighbour, but we work together and help each other wherever it's needed. Neither of us has ever felt the need to pretend that we agree, or to hide them and brush them under the carpet, or that we can only work together if we put them aside, or we can only work together if we are somehow the same.

Perhaps Christians (my neighbour excluded) don't feel able to, or don't feel comfortable doing so - don't know, can't answer that one.

Also, as a side note, we don't see the worship of one God as a "fine theological point". It is the biggest, the most important and very major.

But if Islam teaches that it is important to be charitable and to care for those in need (and I know that it does), then is it unreasonable to suggest that Christians and Muslims (and people from other faiths) should work together towards that common goal?

I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise. Muslims, Christians, and people of other faiths often already work together to alleviate suffering in various countries. The Disasters Emergency Committee is just one example I'm sure you're already aware of, and there are also examples on a smaller scale.

Peace.

[~Zaria~]

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points. :)

Assalamu-alaikum/ Greetings,

I havent had the chance to read through this entire thread, but insha Allah just wanted to comment on the above.

We are clearly working from 2 different concepts of reality:

When we ask ourselves: 'Why are we here on earth?', 'What is our purpose?'

--> A believer will answer: My purpose is the WORSHIP OF THE ONE WHO HAS CREATED ME.

For Allah (subhanawataála) says in the Quraan:

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”


[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

This is our prerogative.

This is the reason why we are here.

Whatever else is occuring around us - both in our private lives, and on a larger scale are merely tests for mankind.
--> A means of differentiating the sincere, stead-fast believer from the hypocrite and disbeliever.

Yes, hunger, war, injustice and cruelty - are important aspects of life, that need our attention.

But never at the expense of losing focus of our actual purpose.

Never at the expense of placing our 'religious differences' aside.
--> It is these 'religious differences' that make us MUSLIM.

And it is just as important, if not more, than ANY other worldly occurence.

When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

The problem with this concept is that until the arrival of Isa (alaihi salam) (Jesus) to earth/ after defeat of the Dajjal (The anti-christ) - we are not expecting to see a world without these evils.

This is the decree of Allah (subhanawata'la).

We are approaching a very dark period for mankind.

So, while we may continue striving against the forces of shaytaan - as a means of gaining the pleasure of Allah - we understand this grand plan in the making.

Which is why, we can never dismiss 'discussing the finer theological points'.

--> This is the Islam we are living.
--> Without knowledge of our deen (religion) - would be like trying to reach success, without the aid of Allah!

And the one who thinks he can ever succeed without Allah (subhanawata'la) - with regards to anything in life - is truly at a loss.

:wa:

[Scimitar]

I guess we're all forgetting the jews, Christians and Muslims all lived together in perfect peace in Jerusalem pre-crusades. facepalm.

Scimi

[~Zaria~]

We are now in the post-crusade era......

We can certainly live in peace - but lets not undermine our differences.

This is Islam - and while we have similarities with the other Abrahamic faiths, it is our DIFFERENCES that would matter the most on the Day of Qiyamat (Judgement).

So important are these differences - that one group is rewarded with eternal paradise and the others with eternal punishment in hell-fire.

This is no small matter.

And if we can love one another - as if they are our brothers and sisters - then we would want to scream out these differences, in calling them to Islam - because we can not bear the thought of the consequences.

May Allah grant us all this understanding, love and compassion for each other.
Ameen.

[Scimitar]

Debate and discussion is useless if one is convinced they are correct in their way... the only other way to show truth is to lead by example.

And that is where the fruits manifest. Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible. Don;t think for a second that Christians don't know truth when they see it... what they wanna see if it is possible to live that way. Unfortunately, in these times - Muslims paint a bad picture of our faith.

So... talk is cheap, if you can't follow it up with action - that they can be witness to.

Scimi

[glo]

We can disagree on matters of faith, and work to make the world a better place, and we feel very able to do so.

Amen to that, sister Insaanah. :statisfie

[glo]

Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible.

That is true. :)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
I see those qualities in some Christians and not in others; in some Muslims and not in others; in some people of other faiths and not others ...

[Scimitar]

Debate and discussion is useless if one is convinced they are correct in their way... the only other way to show truth is to lead by example.

And that is where the fruits manifest. Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible. Don;t think for a second that Christians don't know truth when they see it... what they wanna see if it is possible to live that way. Unfortunately, in these times - Muslims paint a bad picture of our faith.

So... talk is cheap, if you can't follow it up with action - that they can be witness to.

And you know when the last time that was? Pre Crusade - Under Muslim caliphate... under shariah law :)

More I look into shariah, the more I want to see it implemented fully in the Muslim countries. On a social front - the rules of it - form the basis for an ideal society even modern day. It is kinda cool...

... But at the moment, there is a fight for 2 world powers. One wants to rule over all of humanity as a tyrant. And the other wants to emerge and bring back the golden times...

One world order agenda... and the kaliphate. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Scimi

[MustafaMc]

And if we can love one another - as if they are our brothers and sisters - then we would want to scream out these differences, in calling them to Islam - because we can not bear the thought of the consequences.

May Allah grant us all this understanding, love and compassion for each other.

Assalamu alaikum, sister, I agree with you. I don't talk about religion to every 'Tom, Dick and Harry' I meet on the street, but when I perceive an interest or an opportunity to share a word or more about my faith I do. I perceive that those who are participants on an Islamic forum are interested in discussing religion which I try to do so in a manner that would be somewhat consistent with what I understand of Prophet Muhammad's (saaws) example. I am supportive of mutual tolerance for differences, but without watering down our faith or neglecting the responsibility I feel to share the message of tawheed.

[MustafaMc]

A quote from Warith Deen Muhammad in 1989, "We are obligated to seek peaceful co-existence with Christians and people of Faith... the similarities are so much more important that we need not focus on the differences. We see Christians and Jews as people of the Book. We should not ask them to take their shahadah…"

I happened to come across this tonight and thought it was revelant to this discussion. I don't see that his statement is consistent with Islamic principles. Note that WD Muhammad broke away from the Nation of Islam that remains under the leadership of Farrakhan; however, his followers yet maintain distinct separation from orthodox Muslims even after his death.

[Eric H]

Blessings and peace be with you MustafaMC my friend;

A quote from Warith Deen Muhammad in 1989, "We are obligated to seek peaceful co-existence with Christians and people of Faith... the similarities are so much more important that we need not focus on the differences. We see Christians and Jews as people of the Book. We should not ask them to take their shahadah…"

I firmly believe that God wants salvation for everyone on Earth, despite all our differences. Beyond any doubt whatsoever, I believe that God has given me a chance for salvation through the Catholic Faith, this I believe to be the absolute truth. If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

I look at your faith in Islam, Allah has chosen a path for you through Islam, and if Allah has chosen you, then who am I to oppose the will of Allah.

My intentions on this forum have always been to strive towards greater interfaith friendship, understanding and cooperation.

Truth is a tricky subject, because it leads people to do things based on their truth. I am reminded of the Spanish Inquisitions when people believed that they should spread their truth to all people because it was the only way to eternal salvation. Torturing people into believing was a valid option because they would then gain salvation.

I believe that God has given each of us scriptures to change ourselves, when we use our scriptures to try and change others we tend to fail.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Aprender]

If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

Interesting. I've heard a few Christians say something similar to this. But more so that they would rather become an atheist than think of embracing Islam.

Interestingly enough for me after I no longer believed in Christianity as the truth through years of study, I did not lose my faith in God. I still believed. I just wasn't sure which was the right path to take where that truth was but I knew it was out there. I'm reminded of Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." For a long time I tried to force modern Christianity on myself even though I no longer believed in it. That changed after some intense prayer.

So I began to study other religions and secular life philosophies. And I kept searching until I found what made sense. Atheism wasn't an option.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Aprender;

Interesting. I've heard a few Christians say something similar to this. But more so that they would rather become an atheist than think of embracing Islam.

I grew up a Catholic and left the church when I was 17, because the temptations of the world were too strong for me at that age. It took another 30 years in the wilderness, before God led me back again. I just hope and pray I don’t loose my faith again due to temptations.

I have been a Street Pastor for the last four and a half years, this involves walking the streets until 3-4 am, and coming into contacts with drunks violence, troubled and angry people, as well as lots of wonderful people. We don’t go out to preach but sometimes drunks will ask us about God at 2 am.

I can only say that I have found profound moments of peace that surpass all my understanding, and they have been in times of anger and violence when I should be feeling afraid and worried. The peace comes from knowing that there are Christians of many denominations praying for us, and we know that God responds to these prayers, we have so many reasons to thank God.

I have stood up a couple of times at interfaith gatherings, to ask if an interfaith version of Street Pastors would be possible. To make it work we would have to pray for each other, and possibly with each other.

I don’t want to talk about my beliefs on an Islamic forum. I have learnt much about Islam from some wonderful people on this forum during the last seven years. I have a great respect for everyone here, but it is not a religion that I could embrace for myself. I pray that we all find salvation despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

[جوري]

I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

That's unfortunate- You're the only practicing Christian I have ever encountered that I sincerely like. There's genuineness to you that doesn't exist in any other that I have come across on the board or outside except when they stop practicing and act normal .. reminds me of a sahabi who once grieved for a Christian man seeing how committed he was to his faith and knowing how erroneous those beliefs are.
I'll be truly sad should the chariot come for you while you remain worshiping a middle eastern man. I can only make du3a that you seek and find truth before it is too late.

best,

[MustafaMc]

I firmly believe that God wants salvation for everyone on Earth, despite all our differences.

Peaceful greetings to you Eric H. I disagree with this statement even though I am not the one to say who deserves punishment. I will have to say though that at the very least Abu Lahab and his wife will not achieve salvation. If Allah (swt) wants something, then surely it will come to be.

Beyond any doubt whatsoever, I believe that God has given me a chance for salvation through the Catholic Faith, this I believe to be the absolute truth. If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

As I suspected, you have had life experiences to give you confidence that your faith is true. I am puzzled by your statement about being an atheist if you were not a Catholic. My overall faith changed relatively little when I became a Muslim. As a Christian I had believed in the Trinitarian God, Bible as the Word of God, angels, prophets, resurrection, Judgment Day, Heaven and Hell. The biggest change for me was my belief about Jesus being the Son of God and God Incarnate, but my concept of God as the Father (meaning the one Jesus prayed to) provided a smooth transition to faith in Allah (swt). Perhaps, your life experiences so intertwine Jesus with your concept of God that you can't imagine a distinction or separation of Jesus from the Father.

I look at your faith in Islam, Allah has chosen a path for you through Islam, and if Allah has chosen you, then who am I to oppose the will of Allah.

I apologize, Eric H, if I put words in your mouth, but I am trying to understand. If you see Allah (swt) as having chosen Islam for me, then did Jesus or the Father choose Christianity for you? It seems illogical to me that if there is only One God that He should choose contradictory beliefs for different people.

My intentions on this forum have always been to strive towards greater interfaith friendship, understanding and cooperation.

As my Sister in faith said, I find you are a very likeable person and a model for what I would consider to be a follower of Jesus. Sadly, though I have little understanding of your faith. Perhaps you are reluctant to share your faith as it may be seen as promoting another faith besides Islam.

Truth is a tricky subject, because it leads people to do things based on their truth. I am reminded of the Spanish Inquisitions when people believed that they should spread their truth to all people because it was the only way to eternal salvation. Torturing people into believing was a valid option because they would then gain salvation.

We all believe that we have the Truth, else we would change our faith where it was in error. I agree that we should not force others to change their faith, but I don't see that it is wrong to hope for others to adopt your faith if you believe it is the Truth.

I believe that God has given each of us scriptures to change ourselves, when we use our scriptures to try and change others we tend to fail.

I agree that our scriptures provide guidelines for how we should live our lives. We are not responsible for changing others, but there is a possibility that someone may see the light of another's life and see in them something that is lacking in their own life. This may lead one to reexamine his own faith.

In the spirit of praying for Divine guidance to all those who are sincere and pure in heart.

[glo]

And if we can love one another - as if they are our brothers and sisters - then we would want to scream out these differences, in calling them to Islam - because we can not bear the thought of the consequences.

I understand what you are saying, Zaria, and I have heard this argument many times from Muslims as well as Christians.
'If we are convinced that our faith is the true way to salvation and we love our non-believing friends/neighbours/colleagues/family members, then should we not want to try our hardest to convert them to our faith?'

However, what happens when people feel that way, is that they start to think of themselves as better or superior to those non-believers. I often hear people speak of themselves as 'being chosen' or 'having been guided' ... and consequently pride sneaks in.
Pride, instead of humility and an awareness that we are all in God's hand and that GOD will be the final judge one day. (And how will he judge us for our pride??)
And people forget that God indeed gave us all free will to choose, and that there is no compulsion in religion ...

I would argue that the reason Eric is so very much loved and respected here I exactly because he is one of the most humble and peaceful and gentle people I have ever met.
He does not force his views and beliefs onto anybody, indeed he is very hesitant to talk about his faith, even when asked. And he is always respectful of Islam.

Yet, he is firm in his faith.
Eric demonstrated what Scimitar mentioned earlier in this thread: by his fruits of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control should be apparent to all of us that God is at work in our friend Eric; and that he has a calling to be amongst people of other faiths.

Interfaith working requires the ability to put aside one's own convictions for the sake of loving and relating to the person who holds different beliefs. There may be times of discussing one's differences for the sake of understanding and learning ... but there also has to come the time to put those aside, embrace each other and say "I love you, may God bless you" whole-heartedly. And to put our trust in God.

I understand (after many years of struggling with it) that this is as Islamic forum, not an interfaith one. Therefore our Muslim brothers and sisters here may not display the same interfaith heart, which is present in Eric.

However, I pray that more and more people will develop such a heart.
I believe that there are more ways to represent one's faith than preaching, and that often action (and attitude) speak louder than words!
Like Scimi said, people will be able to tell by our fruits if God is at work in us!

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible. Don;t think for a second that Christians don't know truth when they see it... what they wanna see if it is possible to live that way. Unfortunately, in these times - Muslims paint a bad picture of our faith.

Maybe some do, and Muslims aren't perfect, but I think this for the most part, doesn't hold.

For some Christians (not all), they cannot give up their salvation through accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour, in favour of what they perceive as the uncertainty of salvation in Islam. They don't want to give up their ticket to heaven and somebody else bearing the burden of their sins.

Many Christians accept Islam because they recognise Allah's guidance, and don't let the behaviour of a few Muslims behaviour put them off doing what is right for them.

Look at the enmity shown by people to the best of human beings. That in itself, is witness to the fact that it is not the case that if people's characters were perfect, people would accept the truth. That is, unfortunately, just an excuse.

Acceptance of the truth doesn't come from other people's behaviour being good, but from your own heart being willing to to open to the truth and accept it when you hear it, regardless of any other factor, and of course, ultimately Allah's guidance. You will not be able to offer other people's behaviour as an excuse on the day of judgement if you knew the truth when you saw it, yet didn't accept it.

Also remember, it was the supposed bad behaviour of "Muslims", that drew a surge of people to Islam post 9/11, after investigating what this religion was really all about.

I'm not saying that bad behaviour is correct in any way, shape or form, but that the assumption unfortunately for the most part isn't a strong one. We should however, try to have good character and behaviour always as the integral part of Islam that it is.

:sl:

[~Zaria~]

Thank you for your response Glo.

While I agree with the following:

.....God indeed gave us all free will to choose, and that there is no compulsion in religion

I think it would be an assumption to generally infer the following:

However, what happens when people feel that way, is that they start to think of themselves as better or superior to those non-believers. I often hear people speak of themselves as 'being chosen' or 'having been guided' ... and consequently pride sneaks in.
Pride, instead of humility and an awareness that we are all in God's hand and that GOD will be the final judge one day. (And how will he judge us for our pride??)

Indeed, shaytaan whispers into the hearts of those who are striving in Allahs path.
And pride can certainly creep into the heart of the person - who does not rectify his intention <-- this is important in all matters of life.

Which is why, at the beginning of every action......in the middle of every action......and at the end of every action......we should STOP, and check our INTENTIONS.

Our intention (in all matters) should be solely for attaining the PLEASURE OF ALLAH.

So, the fear of Shaytaans influence on us (e.g pride), should certainly not be a deterrant in calling people to the way of Allah.

There are some among us who are/ wish to: Live, breathe and think Islam - 24/7.
There is nothing in their lives as important as submitting to Allah, striving to be reflections of their prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam)......and they sincerely wish that ALL those around them can taste the sweetness and experience the beauty of this religion.

Interfaith working requires the ability to put aside one's own convictions for the sake of loving and relating to the person who holds different beliefs.

I disagree.

I love all of mankind.
And I only desire for the rest of humanity, what I desire for myself (in fact this is from a teaching of our beloved prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam).

But there is no such thing as 'Interfaith'.

Where has this new age term arisen from?
And what does it really serve? Other than to confuse the masses.

Yes, there are similarities between the abrahamic faiths.

But there are differences too.....

These differences will matter the most.....not today......but oneday - when all of mankind stands before their Lord.


Glo, it is my duty as a muslim, as it is every other muslims duty, to invite people to the way of Allah.
Not to force....but to simply invite.

And not to the way of a confused 'Interfaith' dialogue......that often serves to only focus on our similarities......with a little bit of this.....and a little bit of that chosen according to our desires.
No - this was the way of our fore-fathers.
And it is due to this and our denial of the whole truth that has left most of mankind in confusion.

Instead - Our invitation is to the way of the Oneness of our Creator, our Sustainer - and the way of His final messenger Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).

I trust that you may now understand where most of us are coming from.

Take care.

[glo]

Glo, it is my duty as a muslim, as it is every other muslims duty, to invite people to the way of Allah.
Not to force....but to simply invite.

I trust that you may now understand where most of us are coming from.

I totally understand where you are coming from, sister Zaria.
I have received many invitations to Islam by wonderful Muslim friends over the years. And I respect and appreciate their kind intentions. :)

And not to the way of a confused 'Interfaith' dialogue......that often serves to only focus on our similarities......with a little bit of this.....and a little bit of that chosen according to our desires.
No - this was the way of our fore-fathers.

I agree with that. Interfaith should not be about getting all woolly or wishy-washy, or even having to believe that 'all faiths lead to God' (although there are people who believe that).

It is healthy for us to understand our differences in beliefs and even to discuss or debate them amicably and as friends. But we also need to be able to step away and say "To you your faith and to me mine"
(Just my own thoughts. You don't have to agree with me. :))

Take care.

And you too. God's blessings on you.

[~Zaria~]

^ Im having problems loading this page (and others), but I 'LIKE' the above comment Glo : )

"To you your faith and to me mine"

Reflect on the following: Surat-al-Kafirun (The Holy Quraan: 109)

Say, "O disbelievers,

I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.

To you be your religion, and to me my religion."

You may or may not realise this Glo - but indeed, you speak our language : )

[glo]

You may or may not realise this Glo - but indeed, you speak our language : )

I knew that I was quoting from the Qu'ran, Zaria. :)
You may not have been around, but 'Lakum dinukum wa-liya dini' was part of my forum signature for quite some time.

[glo]

I have been a Street Pastor for the last four and a half years, this involves walking the streets until 3-4 am, and coming into contacts with drunks violence, troubled and angry people, as well as lots of wonderful people. We don’t go out to preach but sometimes drunks will ask us about God at 2 am.
I can only say that I have found profound moments of peace that surpass all my understanding, and they have been in times of anger and violence when I should be feeling afraid and worried. The peace comes from knowing that there are Christians of many denominations praying for us, and we know that God responds to these prayers, we have so many reasons to thank God.

I have stood up a couple of times at interfaith gatherings, to ask if an interfaith version of Street Pastors would be possible. To make it work we would have to pray for each other, and possibly with each other.

To me this is what interfaith working is really about.

Assuming that both Christians and Muslims have a heart and desire to go out and protect/care for/pray for the needy members of society, can they join forces and do so together?
Can they lay aside their religious differences and work together to help those who need help (as required by their religious teachings)?
In addition, street pastors typically pray for each before before they go out, and whole teams continue to pray whilst the pastors are out on the street - for safety, for guidance, for wisdom. Can Muslims and Christians pray together and for each other in those circumstances?

We need to weigh these things individually and come to our own decision on this. Some of us may feel we could, others that we couldn't.

I get very excited when I see people overcome their differences and work together ... excited, because it gives me the hope that in a world of so much strife and hatred, there is the possibility to work and live together peacefully ...:statisfie

[Scimitar]

I get very excited when I see people overcome their differences and work together ... excited, because it gives me the hope that in a world of so much strife and hatred, there is the possibility to work and live together peacefully ...

:) totally. :)

This is one example (Shaikh Habib Ali Al Jifri gives a lecture in a Church in order to promote inter-faith understanding) :



Scimi

[glo]

I really like Shaikh Habib Ali Al Jifri, Scimi.
Incidentally, I met the female vicar at 0:55:00 last month at an interfaith talk.

Attachment 5049

[Scimitar]

:) now that, is something eh? :)

We need more people like you on these boards sis. And bros like Eric H.

I always maintained that despite the major differences between faiths, we have soooooo much more in common. And it is this commonality which will help to bridge the gap - in the spirit of praying to One God :) (thank you Eric for the line)

Scimi

[Insaanah]

Greetings of peace, Eric.

I firmly believe that God wants salvation for everyone on Earth, despite all our differences.

It's like a judge saying that he wants every criminal to be found not guilty, and to escape punishment.

We believe that God not wants but will administer, absolute justice for everyone on earth. Just as a judge, the victim (and society) would not wish to see hardened criminals escape due punishment, and nor is that befitting, we believe that God also will give justice to everyone, even if that justice does not involve salvation. For everyone (killers and saints) to achieve equal salvation, is injustice, just as it would be if God gave contradictory doctrines for people to follow.

And while God can, and will, forgive whomsover He wishes, He will also punish, as we know, and there are people He has said will stay in hell forever.

For us to say God wants salvation for all, despite wrong beliefs/deeds, is to say that we know better than God, or that God has got it wrong.

It would be better to say we wish to see as many people as possible guided to the right path.

If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

That is very sad to hear Eric. Some would say there are verses in the Bible which actually point to the truth of Islam and of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) being a prophet who God requires to be listened to and followed. Perhaps you feel there are verses that say that if you renounce your faith, then it is better to reject God, your Creator and Sustainer, altogether. I find that troubling.

I can empathise with what brother MustafaMc has said here:

As a Christian I had believed in the Trinitarian God, Bible as the Word of God, angels, prophets, resurrection, Judgment Day, Heaven and Hell. The biggest change for me was my belief about Jesus being the Son of God and God Incarnate, but my concept of God as the Father (meaning the one Jesus prayed to) provided a smooth transition to faith in Allah (swt). Perhaps, your life experiences so intertwine Jesus with your concept of God that you can't imagine a distinction or separation of Jesus from the Father.

Interestingly, all reverts from Christianity that I know of, say that they feel closer to Christ (peace be upon him) than they ever did as a Christian, but that they only only realise that in hindsight.

Truth is a tricky subject, because it leads people to do things based on their truth. I am reminded of the Spanish Inquisitions when people believed that they should spread their truth to all people because it was the only way to eternal salvation. Torturing people into believing was a valid option because they would then gain salvation.

Where did they get this truth from? Is this something that the Bible teaches, that torturing people is acceptable if as a result they achieve salvation? If it doesn't teach that, then their belief was not based on what is perceived as a scriptural truth, and we can't use that here in this discussion. That was a belief they held, much like a robber might think it's ok to rob, as it will count as the victims having given charity - it was a belief, but not a truth.

I believe that God has given each of us scriptures to change ourselves, when we use our scriptures to try and change others we tend to fail.

Our scripture itself invites people to change themselves, so we don't need to "use" it ourself in that fashion. It invites readers to ponder, consider, and reflect, poses searching questions to them, gives analogies to make things easier to understand, and invites people to re-evaluate their beliefs and reconsider the basis for ther own beliefs and doctrines.

We do not view the Qur'an as a scripture for us by means of which we try to change others, but it is a scripture for the whole world, by means of which people are invited to change themselves.

We merely convey the message and share it with others.

Peace.

[MustafaMc]

'If we are convinced that our faith is the true way to salvation and we love our non-believing friends/neighbours/colleagues/family members, then should we not want to try our hardest to convert them to our faith?'

Peaceful greetings, glo. We can have the desire for others to be guided to the Straight Way, but it is not our place to do the guiding. We may be an instrument of sharing the Message, but it is God who changes hearts toward guidance or to leave astray.

However, what happens when people feel that way, is that they start to think of themselves as better or superior to those non-believers. I often hear people speak of themselves as 'being chosen' or 'having been guided' ... and consequently pride sneaks in. Pride, instead of humility and an awareness that we are all in God's hand and that GOD will be the final judge one day. (And how will he judge us for our pride??)

If arrogance is in our hearts for 'having been guided', then surely we are in grave error. I do in fact feel as though I have been guided through the grace of God because so many of my fellow Americans and all of my family except my wife are yet astray. I know also, "There but by the grace of God, so go I." If I have behaved arrogantly toward you or others, I ask for your forgiveness.

And people forget that God indeed gave us all free will to choose, and that there is no compulsion in religion ...

Yes, we are free to worship the god of our choice and each of us are responsible for our own lives.

I would argue that the reason Eric is so very much loved and respected here I exactly because he is one of the most humble and peaceful and gentle people I have ever met.
He does not force his views and beliefs onto anybody, indeed he is very hesitant to talk about his faith, even when asked. And he is always respectful of Islam.

Yet, he is firm in his faith.
Eric demonstrated what Scimitar mentioned earlier in this thread: by his fruits of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control should be apparent to all of us that God is at work in our friend Eric; and that he has a calling to be amongst people of other faiths.

We can tell some of what must be in another person's heart by what he/she writes. I have never read a single word by Eric that could be perceived by anyone as offensive toward Islam, or as promoting his Christian faith. I do not agree with everything he writes, but I believe that he has the best intentions along the lines of 'Live and let live'. He strikes me as a person who is as sincere in trying to follow what Jesus taught as any I have ever met. You, he and I will stand separately before our Judge on that Day to give an account for our lives in the manner of, 'Here I stand before my Creator. I did as my faith and conscience led me. May God forgive me for my frailty and mistakes.'

Interfaith working requires the ability to put aside one's own convictions for the sake of loving and relating to the person who holds different beliefs. There may be times of discussing one's differences for the sake of understanding and learning ... but there also has to come the time to put those aside, embrace each other and say "I love you, may God bless you" whole-heartedly. And to put our trust in God.

I can appreciate this perspective, but there is something about interfaith dialog that bothers me and that is the sense of, 'There are many acceptable paths that lead to salvation and who are we to think ours is the only acceptable one?' While realizing there is no compulsion in matters of faith, I am not okay with the attitude of "I'm OK, you're OK." I can have feelings of affection toward you, Eric, or my son, but it is not the same as the love I feel for my brother and sister in Islam. My faith is in Allah and in what He has revealed in the Qur'an through Prophet Muhammad (saaws). The Qur'an gives me hope for Paradise and to see others who share my faith, but it also says, 'They disbelieve who say Jesus is the Son of God.' I believe that faith in Allah and submission to His will is essential for salvation while realizing that forgiveness or dam_ation is for Allah alone to decide. I will not contradict the Word of Allah for the sake of earthly friendship.

I understand (after many years of struggling with it) that this is as Islamic forum, not an interfaith one. Therefore our Muslim brothers and sisters here may not display the same interfaith heart, which is present in Eric.

However, I pray that more and more people will develop such a heart.
I believe that there are more ways to represent one's faith than preaching, and that often action (and attitude) speak louder than words!
Like Scimi said, people will be able to tell by our fruits if God is at work in us!

We are to follow the example of Muhammad (saaws) in our interactions with others, but admittedly we often fall short. I hope you can appreciate my perspective on interfaith dialog and the manner of my interactions with you, Eric and other Christians on this forum.

[MustafaMc]

For some Christians (not all), they cannot give up their salvation through accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour, in favour of what they perceive as the uncertainty of salvation in Islam. They don't want to give up their ticket to heaven and somebody else bearing the burden of their sins.

Assalamu alaikum, sister. I am not sure that it is as much a reluctance to give up their 'Get out of Hell, Free' card as it is clinging to their concept of God and the paradigm of '"For God so loved the world..." One's belief about God and the Unseen is often a fundamental cornerstone of their personal identity. I assume that others remain true to what they feel in their hearts is true and that they have not had an 'Aha! moment' that I did when I first became a Muslim after reading the Quran. Matters of guidance are from Allah and although one may strive sincerely for guidance it is not something he can will upon himself to achieve. Even after having the 'Aha! moment', it was still unsettling to admit that I held erroneous beliefs my whole life and what I had been told was true is really false. In effect, one's world is turned upside down with up becomes down and down becomes up.

[Insaanah]

Greetings of peace

Interfaith working requires the ability to put aside one's own convictions for the sake of loving and relating to the person who holds different beliefs.

I disagree with your understanding of interfaith.

Here are some definitions:

"involving persons of different religious faiths" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interfaith

"of, operating, or occurring between persons belonging to different religions" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interfaith

"involving people who belong to different religions" http://www.macmillandictionary.com/d...ish/interfaith

It in no way requires putting aside ones own convictions. And nor should it ever.

It seems the type of interfaith you're talking about is the one mentioned below as the minority pursuit, putting one's own convictions aside, joining up with all the parts seeming to be common, which results in something quite different.

`inter faith` tends to indicate some attempt at positive interaction between and among them. [...]

Alongside one form of inter faith – which overall may be a minority pursuit – where inter faith indicates the joining up of the parts seen to be held in common across the religious divides – most mainstream approaches work with the differences represented by the various religions and traditions

Source: London Interfaith

As an example, Muslims and Jews meeting to discuss proposed laws on circumcision and ritual slaughter, that may affect them, do not cast their convictions aside in order to be able to discuss such matters. And nor should they feel the need to. Even if the meeting was to understand the other better, there is no need to cast ones convictions aside.

There may be times of discussing one's differences for the sake of understanding and learning ... but there also has to come the time to put those aside, embrace each other and say "I love you, may God bless you" whole-heartedly. And to put our trust in God.

I understand (after many years of struggling with it) that this is as Islamic forum, not an interfaith one. Therefore our Muslim brothers and sisters here may not display the same interfaith heart, which is present in Eric.

However, I pray that more and more people will develop such a heart.

Nor does it require saying to the person, "I love you". This is not a romantic relationship, but a working one. My colleagues are of different faiths. I like them and respect them and get on with them. None of us has ever felt the need to say we love each other, and it would be completely inappropriate to do so, and highly embarrassing to all concerned. And most importantly, it would be untrue, even if within a different context i.e. the interfaith context described above.

This stems from a fundamental difference in our beliefs. Christians believe that God loves everyone and so they must love everyone, and proclaim that love loudly.

Islamically, our relationships with people must be based on respect and justice, and being balanced, as per the community of the middle way we are supposed to be. Not hating people, and not declaring love for everyone on earth. These are two extremes, neither of which we belong to. Allah has never said that He loves everyone, and He does not expect us to, nor did the Prophets teach us to do so. It is not a standard for us to follow or aspire to in any way. We do not declare love for everyone on earth, though of course we sincerely wish guidance for those who are not yet Muslim. When we do love, it must not be a proclaimed love, but one put into practice by action, as shown in the Qur'an and hadeeth.

I get very excited when I see people overcome their differences and work together ... excited, because it gives me the hope that in a world of so much strife and hatred, there is the possibility to work and live together peacefully ...

People are already working and living peacefully together up and down the country, with their differences, neither feeling the need to put them aside or somehow overcome them, and have been, for decades. People just get on with life and don't feel the need to proclaim it or shout from the rooftops. For them it is a normal part of life, just the way it should be.

Peace.

[جوري]

It seems the type of interfaith you're talking about is the one mentioned below as the minority pursuit, putting one's own convictions aside, joining up with all the parts seeming to be common, which results in something quite different.

This is a very important statement and it is actually the crux of everything going on in the Muslim world right now including all the concessions we make that have completely changed our identity, our goal and directionality.
Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance nor finding a common 'ecumenical' prayer or snippets of agreement so that we can all join in and clap hands. Especially with a sin as major as shirk!

:w:

[observer]

I always maintained that despite the major differences between faiths, we have soooooo much more in common. And it is this commonality which will help to bridge the gap - in the spirit of praying to One God

Now, I'm an atheist but this kind of sentiment must surely be the best way forward for everyone? Gaps need bridging - the world is so mixed now that even a single faith country of any kind, let alone a single faith world, is impossible. People need to accept their neighbours' ways of thinking. This attitude of "You're wrong, one day you'll see the light. I hope my god will forgive you" comes across to me as deeply disrespectful.

I don't believe the Bible, but the idea that there are some contradictions in it so it and Christianity must instantly be proved false seems pretty unreasonable to me.

[glo]

Insaanah, dear sister, I have a feeling that our positions are not as different as they may appear.

"Stand firm in your own faith, but be respectful, fair and kind to all others."
Do you think you can agree to that?

Everything else seems to be arguing semantics and finer details of our terminology.
I am not really interested in circular discussions, so I hope you don't mind if I don't further engage in this one. :)
I have said pretty much all I wanted to say on the topic.

Salaam and God's peace and blessings upon you. :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you glo; and thanks for sharing.

Interfaith working requires the ability to put aside one's own convictions for the sake of loving and relating to the person who holds different beliefs.

I believe we have to put aside our own convictions for justice to prevail.

If a Catholic is drawn more towards seeking justice for other Catholics, how can that be real justice because it shows discrimination. It almost seems that justice is served in a far greater way when a Catholic seeks justice for a Muslim an atheist a Hindu rather than justice for another Catholic. We must seek justice, peace, human dignity and freedom from oppression for all people regardless of their religion.

Beyond any doubt whatsoever, we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God’s creation, and that has to mean caring for each other.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith cooperation

Eric

[Insaanah]

Greetings of peace.

But if our desire is to make this world a better, more peaceful, more caring, more just place, then we would do better to put aside our differences,

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1539659

I believe we have to put aside our own convictions for justice to prevail.

If a Catholic is drawn more towards seeking justice for other Catholics, how can that be real justice because it shows discrimination. It almost seems that justice is served in a far greater way when a Catholic seeks justice for a Muslim an atheist a Hindu rather than justice for another Catholic. We must seek justice, peace, human dignity and freedom from oppression for all people regardless of their religion.

Beyond any doubt whatsoever, we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God’s creation, and that has to mean caring for each other.

I've been reading the last few pages of this thread, and also looking at the topics covered in other recent threads. The upshot of some of those, seems to be that we must put our convictions aside for any betterment to occur in society.

Islamically, we don't put aside our own convictions for justice or kindness to prevail.

Justice and kindness should prevail, precisely because of our convictions. Our convictions should lead us to being kind and just. It shouldn't be the case that we can only be kind and just by putting them aside. If that is the case, then we need to question our convictions to begin with.

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. (4:135)

So we must be just and truthful, even if that means having to give evidence against ourselves, or our parents, in favour of, say a Hindu or Christian or Jew or athiest or any other person.

Indeed the Prophet (peace be upon him) helped a Jew get justice when he had been falsely accused of stealing armour.

The prophets cousin, son in law and fourth caliph, Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), once had a dispute wth a Jew over the ownership of some armour, which Ali had said belonged to him, at the time that Ali was caliph. Ali took the case to the judge, and the judge dismissed the case due to lack of admissible evidence from Ali for his claim. The Jew was astounded (as he knew that the armour actually did belong to Ali), and was observing the entire proceeding with full attention. On leaving the courtroom, he watched intently to see the reaction of Ali. There was not the slightest bit of annoyance on the face of Ali. Not a word of displeasure regarding the verdict was uttered. The Jew, overcome by this sterling character, and impartiality of the judge shown to the leader of all the Muslims, addressed Ali thus:

'The Commander of the Faithful takes me before his own judge and the judge rules in my favor against him! I bear witness that no one deserves worship except God and that Muhammad is His Messenger [the Jewish man accepted Islam], and that the suit of armor is yours, Commander of the Faithful. You dropped it at night and I found it.' (Abu Bakr Hayyan, Tarikh al-Qudat, Volume 2, p. 200) Ali thereafter gave the armour to the Jew as a gift.

The life-story of the Prophet (peace be upon him) gives many instances of his kind co-existence with non-Muslims. Some of his neighbors were non-Muslims and the Prophet would be generous towards them and exchange gifts. The Prophet would visit them when they fell sick and do business with them. There was a Jewish family he regularly gave charity to and the Muslims after his death maintained his charity towards them.

When a Christian delegation from Ethiopian churches came to Madina, the Prophet opened up his mosque for them to stay in, hosted them generously, and personally served them meals.

I could give lots of other examples where Muslims have campaigned for justice and indeed made sure that their fellow Children of Adam, got their rights, but will stop here for brevity's sake.

The Islamic relationship between individuals and nations should be one of peace (under normal circumstances). Muslims learn from the Qur'an that one of Gods objectives in creating humans as different communities was that they should relate to each other peacefully:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. (49:13)

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who are just. (60:8)

In summary, we do not have to put aside our convictions to be kind and just to each other and to live together in peace, for such actions are enshrined in the teachings of our faith.

Peace.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Assuming that both Christians and Muslims have a heart and desire to go out and protect/care for/pray for the needy members of society, can they join forces and do so together?
Can they lay aside their religious differences and work together to help those who need help (as required by their religious teachings)?

Of course. Helping the needy is something encouraged in both religions and there are already charities in place that do such interfaith work. I think the key issue here is being able to work together, whilst acknowledging each others' differences. I see the true meaning of interfaith as being each person working with others whilst remaining true to their faith, without being asked to compromise what their faith teaches.

Now, I'm an atheist but this kind of sentiment must surely be the best way forward for everyone? Gaps need bridging - the world is so mixed now that even a single faith country of any kind, let alone a single faith world, is impossible. People need to accept their neighbours' ways of thinking. This attitude of "You're wrong, one day you'll see the light. I hope my god will forgive you" comes across to me as deeply disrespectful.

I don't believe the Bible, but the idea that there are some contradictions in it so it and Christianity must instantly be proved false seems pretty unreasonable to me.

Gaps do need bridging and they can be bridged, without having to compromise on what our faiths teach. Believing someone else is wrong does not mean we cannot work with them or help them or treat them with the same respect and dignity as we do any other human being. People have the right to disagree with others and it is a natural phenomenon of mankind. People will always differ in religions, creeds, beliefs, opinions and sects. The Qur'an mentions:

And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one Ummah, but they will not cease to disagree. Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His mercy, and for that did He create them. [11: 118-119]

We should remain honest and open, especially about something so important as salvation and the concept of God, and we should never feel ashamed of proclaiming the teachings of our religion. History attests to the fact that people can be true to their faith yet live side by side in perfect harmony.

Regards.

[observer]

Gaps do need bridging and they can be bridged, without having to compromise on what our faiths teach. Believing someone else is wrong does not mean we cannot work with them or help them or treat them with the same respect and dignity as we do any other human being. People have the right to disagree with others and it is a natural phenomenon of mankind. People will always differ in religions, creeds, beliefs, opinions and sects.

Yep, totally agree with this, especially the right to disagree.