/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Women in Prison..check this out



Noora_z3
05-08-2005, 08:49 PM
Here is a very interesting report. I picked some of the points and thought to share them with u guys adding some of my own comments and reflections.

March 23, 2005 ABC News: Inside a Maximum Security Women's Prison in Atlanta by "Primetime Live"'s Diane Sawyer.

First let me tell u that the report states that 99% of the women in maximum security prison are MOTHERS…..strange huh!

Men tend to kill strangers, but women kill family members. Almost half of America's female murderers killed their husband or boyfriend.
One of those inmates said that "I had a very abusive husband. But he was sexually molesting our children. And when I went to the police, they wouldn't do nothing. So I did,"
Personally I think that females tend to turn to violence as their last option, either for self defense or to protect their kids, which is in accord to their basic nature. A cat is so cute and calm, but once it becomes a mother and feels that her kids r endangered she becomes so wild and aggressive…..does any one blame these women?!!

Now check out this very astonishing statement….

One of the peculiarities of American justice is that for many violent crimes, women tend to serve longer sentences than men.
The Gambrel case hardly proves that sentencing is fair and uniform though. While Gambrel serves a life sentence, another woman in Metro with a very similar story received the death penalty. use
Kelly Gissendaner, 36, is the only woman on death row in Georgia. The mother of three is held behind heavy metal gates.
"The defendant in this case is a desperate, evil woman," the prosecution said. "That's what evil looks like.". Her lover got a life sentence with the possibility of parole in exchange for testifying against her.
Both, her and her boy friend, participated in committing this crime, she was given a death penalty and him life sentence with the possibility of parole?!!!...Something is stinking in here!!...

This whole thing of equality of men and women did so much harm for women all around the world, she asked for liberation, started to dress like men and work beside men, the irony?! She still works full time in her house in addition to her career, she have to sponser her family, she earns less than man, and if she wants to enjoy her pension, she should work till she is 67!!!...No woman can bear that, so she quit working before retirement age, here goes her pension!, the result is..75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women… who is gonna support her now?!..NO ONE..coz she asked for equality.

Now let’s see if she committed a crime, she tends to serve longer sentences than men. She asked for equality and they granted her more than wat she asked for. I feel sick every time I read such stuffs, one can see such reports screaming ‘injustice is committed against women in broad daylight’, some women unfortunately, r so confused, they forgot wat is liberation all about. Enslavement became synonymous to equality and liberation. All those who r wasting their efforts running after the wrong type of liberation… get real!!, look where women r really suffering and restore their lost rights, give them back wat they really deserve, dignity, respect, a life.

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Bint Abdusattar
05-08-2005, 10:57 PM
:sl:

Thsi shows the importance of the Islamic way of life. The woman to be looked after by her father and then husband. It is in women's fitra to be homemakers and to be loooked after and appreciated. Just look at the consequenses of the so called 'liberation of women' and 'women's rights' et.

What disturbs me about this terminology and what we all need to look out for is: when they say 'women's rights':

our needs should be OUR needs and not needs of white middle class people.
Our concerns and not Western concerns

Don't have our agenda dictated from outside

When we women flick through magazines and see fashions and ways of life, we should think:
I am not going to allow someone else dictate to me what their idea of beauty is

Sorry for going of the topic a bit but we need to identify the source of problems and not just try to cure the symptoms.

:w:
Reply

afzalaung
05-09-2005, 03:23 AM
:sl:
just comes to show...the kuffar Judiciary system is a failure!
Reply

BlissfullyJaded
05-09-2005, 03:54 AM
:sl:

Yup, totally prooves who's really the oppressed one. All they're doin with their whole liberation stuff is just enslaving themselves even more to men.

Jazakallah khair sis Noora. :thumbs_up
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Noora_z3
05-10-2005, 08:26 AM
Jamee'n insha Allah :)
Reply

Khaldun
05-10-2005, 10:08 AM
:sl:

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.
when you say we need to stop this trend what do you mean, which trend? the killing that women do or the womens right issue?
Reply

MetSudaisTwice
05-10-2005, 10:21 AM
yeah bro that was what i was thinking, am getting cofused over that trend issue
Reply

Noora_z3
05-10-2005, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:



when you say we need to stop this trend what do you mean, which trend? the killing that women do or the womens right issue?
oops...didnt know i made u guys confused...meant the women's right issue... in sauda arabia like everyday writers in prominent newspapers r callin for so called "Libiration of Women", and its not libiration they r askin for, but enslavment.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-10-2005, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by afzalaung
:sl:
just comes to show...the kuffar Judiciary system is a failure!

yup ;D ;D ;D
Reply

renak
04-06-2006, 10:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Åhmed
yup ;D ;D ;D
How is incarcerating a killer a failure?
Reply

renak
04-06-2006, 10:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bint Abdusattar
:sl:

Thsi shows the importance of the Islamic way of life. The woman to be looked after by her father and then husband. It is in women's fitra to be homemakers and to be loooked after and appreciated. Just look at the consequenses of the so called 'liberation of women' and 'women's rights' et.


:w:
The whole idea of being looked over by a father or husband is very appealing to me. However, we cannot guarantee that these fathers and husbands are actually good, nonviolent men themselves.
Reply

...
04-06-2006, 10:31 AM
Yes but if they follow islam then they should be. A woman should marry a pious husband.
Reply

renak
04-06-2006, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asma1
Yes but if they follow islam then they should be. A woman should marry a pious husband.
This is only in an ideal situation. Life is much more complicated.
Reply

HeiGou
04-06-2006, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3
First let me tell u that the report states that 99% of the women in maximum security prison are MOTHERS…..strange huh!
Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too?

Personally I think that females tend to turn to violence as their last option, either for self defense or to protect their kids, which is in accord to their basic nature. A cat is so cute and calm, but once it becomes a mother and feels that her kids r endangered she becomes so wild and aggressive…..does any one blame these women?!!
Think about the source and its possible biases. What are these women going to say - they went out and shot someone for fun? Of course not. They will want to get parole and to have people think nice things about them so of course they will say "I was a victim".

Both, her and her boy friend, participated in committing this crime, she was given a death penalty and him life sentence with the possibility of parole?!!!...Something is stinking in here!!...
Without knowing the specifics it is very hard to comment. It is worth noting that it has only been in the last few years that any women have been executed at all - at least since the Furman decision in, umm, 1972. The death penalty is very rarely applied to women at all so the question ought to be what was the aggravating factor that affected this woman. Maybe she pulled the trigger. Maybe he co-operated with the DA. Who knows?

This whole thing of equality of men and women did so much harm for women all around the world, she asked for liberation, started to dress like men and work beside men, the irony?! She still works full time in her house in addition to her career, she have to sponser her family, she earns less than man, and if she wants to enjoy her pension, she should work till she is 67!!!...
How did it do harm for women? Women do not dress like men, but even if they did, how is that harm for them? Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to. It would be a strange woman that worked full time at two jobs while her husband only did one (and by the way did anyone see the documentary on a Palestinian American who married a Palestinian woman and brought her home only for her to be bored out of her mind because he wouldn't let her out and she just could not find enough housework to do?). She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less. And traditionally in the West men worked until they were 65, women until they were 60. Where's the irony?

No woman can bear that, so she quit working before retirement age, here goes her pension!, the result is..75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women… who is gonna support her now?!..NO ONE..coz she asked for equality.
Of course women can work until they are 65 if they want. But how does their pension go if they retire early exactly? The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out. Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more. Exactly how does that relate to the demand for equality? If their husbands did not put aside enough money for them what makes you think they would have if their wives didn't work?

Now let’s see if she committed a crime, she tends to serve longer sentences than men. She asked for equality and they granted her more than wat she asked for. I feel sick every time I read such stuffs, one can see such reports screaming ‘injustice is committed against women in broad daylight’
That does not apply to the Death penalty and I rather doubt it applies to the rest of the criminal justice system either. Women did ask for equality. What is wrong with that?

some women unfortunately, r so confused, they forgot wat is liberation all about. Enslavement became synonymous to equality and liberation. All those who r wasting their efforts running after the wrong type of liberation… get real!!, look where women r really suffering and restore their lost rights, give them back wat they really deserve, dignity, respect, a life
.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.
Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?
Reply

Noora_z3
04-07-2006, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too??
99% is a big percentage, alrighty, lets see, of all american women (Whit, Black, Hispanic, etc..) how many of them r mothers? i mean wat percentage mothers constitute in femal population of USA? if u can answer that question, then we can decide if it is strange that 99% of women in maximum security prison r mothers or not.

Think about the source and its possible biases. What are these women going to say - they went out and shot someone for fun? Of course not. They will want to get parole and to have people think nice things about them so of course they will say "I was a victim".
Well of course we cant say who is right n who is not, but the point is that the report stated that women tend to kill family memebers, which is something unusual, i mean we know that women r more compassionate than men, they r less voilent than men, then why do they kill their own husbands or boyfreinds? u dont agree with me in this?

Without knowing the specifics it is very hard to comment. It is worth noting that it has only been in the last few years that any women have been executed at all - at least since the Furman decision in, umm, 1972. The death penalty is very rarely applied to women at all so the question ought to be what was the aggravating factor that affected this woman. Maybe she pulled the trigger. Maybe he co-operated with the DA. Who knows??
Alrighty, in this I agree with u, we cant be sure in this regard.

Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to.
R u talking about a small segment of the socity? or bout the majority?
Regardless, even if she works full time and she has a cooperative partner, her hosue n her kids r still her responsiblity.

She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less.
Nope i wasnt comparing between men working full time n women working part time, In Oprah Show, Oprah said that women compared with men working in the same position have lower wages. Even in sports, men get a higher reward in winngin any Tennis Tournement than women.

The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out.
Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more.
when I said that 75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women, I quoted Oprah Winfry once again, isnt she reliable? I think we should ask her.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?
is thats wat suffuring is, being locked at home 24 hours a day?!, suffuring is, being exploited by men in music, movies, commercials, magazines..etc., their worth is valued according to their thiness n sexyness, their flesh matters more than their brains or insides. Suffuring is wen they have to work as truck drivers n diggers in mines because their fathers n husbands think they HAVE to support themselves financially. Suffuring is wen their boyfrinnds make them prgnent n then leave them alone just because they werent ready! Suffuring is wen they have to work as strippers or prostitutes so to be able to pay their tuition fees. Suffuring is wen they have to work inside n outside their houses to prove to others that they r as good as men

By the way, u know where I live, I live in Saudi arabia (although i am not saudi), all my freinds r saudis, if u come here n say i heard that women r locked in their houses 24/7, they gonna laugh at u. if u go any where, hospitals, banks, compnaies, malls u will see women walkin by their own, I go with my sister to a mall walking at 7:30 p.m. n come back by 9:30 p.m. walking without any fear, trust me its not so near.

I am not saying that all women in asian or african countries have all their rights protected, but relativly we got more freedom than most western women.

Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?
I oppose the western concept of equality. I belive in equality, I never thought that guys r any better than I am, I am as good as any guy, I can do any job I want, n I can be happy without a hubbt in my life, i dont think that i need a guy to complete me, I am a whole by myself. N I can gurantee that I can perform better than any guy. But that dosent mean that I, just to prove to others that I am as good as man, loose my femininity n dignity, I am comfortable in my own skin n I dont need to prove to the world that I am no less than a man.

Oh yeah, my daughters n gradndaughter will choose like I did before tham, And I am sure that they will choose to be even better than me.
Reply

HeiGou
04-07-2006, 08:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too??
99% is a big percentage, alrighty, lets see, of all american women (Whit, Black, Hispanic, etc..) how many of them r mothers? i mean wat percentage mothers constitute in femal population of USA? if u can answer that question, then we can decide if it is strange that 99% of women in maximum security prison r mothers or not.
Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Maybe criminals are more likely to be young? Maybe they think their sentence is an excellent time to be mothers - I mean what else are they going to be doing?

Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

Well of course we cant say who is right n who is not, but the point is that the report stated that women tend to kill family memebers, which is something unusual, i mean we know that women r more compassionate than men, they r less voilent than men, then why do they kill their own husbands or boyfreinds? u dont agree with me in this?
Well who else are they going to kill? No seriously. Are they out robbing banks? Are they out selling drugs? No, they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill? I bet 100 percent of Muslim women in Saudi Arabia who kill kill family members. They are, on average, less violent than men or at least less effective. And women tend to prefer certain types of murder - poison for instance. How can you poison a stranger?

Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to.
R u talking about a small segment of the socity? or bout the majority?
Regardless, even if she works full time and she has a cooperative partner, her hosue n her kids r still her responsiblity.
In Muslim society perhaps. My sisters-in-law might beg to differ. I expect that middle class men are more likely to help out than working class ones but I do not know.

She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less.
Nope i wasnt comparing between men working full time n women working part time, In Oprah Show, Oprah said that women compared with men working in the same position have lower wages. Even in sports, men get a higher reward in winngin any Tennis Tournement than women.
I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.

The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out.
Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more.
when I said that 75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women, I quoted Oprah Winfry once again, isnt she reliable? I think we should ask her.
You're kidding me? Oprah is not reliable.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?
is thats wat suffuring is, being locked at home 24 hours a day?!, suffuring is, being exploited by men in music, movies, commercials, magazines..etc., their worth is valued according to their thiness n sexyness, their flesh matters more than their brains or insides. Suffuring is wen they have to work as truck drivers n diggers in mines because their fathers n husbands think they HAVE to support themselves financially. Suffuring is wen their boyfrinnds make them prgnent n then leave them alone just because they werent ready! Suffuring is wen they have to work as strippers or prostitutes so to be able to pay their tuition fees. Suffuring is wen they have to work inside n outside their houses to prove to others that they r as good as men
Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me. How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices. What sort of husband or father thinks their wife has to support them? I'd like to meet one of those women! Bad boy friends happen everywhere. In Muslim society too. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to. They can stay home if they do not want to prove they can work as well as men. A lot of women do stay at home. They have the choice. What is wrong with that?

By the way, u know where I live, I live in Saudi arabia (although i am not saudi), all my freinds r saudis, if u come here n say i heard that women r locked in their houses 24/7, they gonna laugh at u. if u go any where, hospitals, banks, compnaies, malls u will see women walkin by their own, I go with my sister to a mall walking at 7:30 p.m. n come back by 9:30 p.m. walking without any fear, trust me its not so near.
Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative? How do they get to the bank - they have drivers? Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?

I am not saying that all women in asian or african countries have all their rights protected, but relativly we got more freedom than most western women.
Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?

Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?
I oppose the western concept of equality. I belive in equality, I never thought that guys r any better than I am, I am as good as any guy, I can do any job I want, n I can be happy without a hubbt in my life, i dont think that i need a guy to complete me, I am a whole by myself. N I can gurantee that I can perform better than any guy.
Where do you think you got those ideas from? And how is that different from the Western idea of equality?

But that dosent mean that I, just to prove to others that I am as good as man, loose my femininity n dignity, I am comfortable in my own skin n I dont need to prove to the world that I am no less than a man.
Who said you have to? All those women posing for car adverts are sure feminine.

Oh yeah, my daughters n gradndaughter will choose like I did before tham, And I am sure that they will choose to be even better than me.
I hope so too.
Reply

renak
04-08-2006, 02:50 AM
Women who kill need to be incarcerated. Most incarcerated women (and men) refuse to take responsibility for their crimes. Few incarcerated people are actually "innocent".

I fail to see the correlation between imprisoned women and a flawed US penal system.

If a woman finds herself in an abusive situation, there are many options available in the USA to rid herself of such abuse. Killing the abuser is not a valid option.
Reply

Noora_z3
04-08-2006, 11:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill?
Maybe I didnt convey my point clearly, wat I am tryin to say is, these women r mothers, who want to live a good life, but unfortunatly end up with abusive partners, who dont just not listen but also abuse them mentally, emotionally n physically, also molest their own kids in many cases (n some times nighbour's also), they find their voices unheard, they find themselves unprotected, even if their partners were cought, they can easily walk free in matter of months, so these poor women restore to voilence. In a country where women's rights celebrated every year, I think this shouldnt be acceptable.


In Muslim society perhaps. My sisters-in-law might beg to differ. I expect that middle class men are more likely to help out than working class ones but I do not know.


I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.
If you are sure of wat u r saying, I cant argue any more here, I need to go back n check the facts.


You're kidding me? Oprah is not reliable.
Who is reliable then?

Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me.
Well like i said, its not the norm, wen women r locked up all day at home, then thats by eastern standards abuse. I am speaking from my first hand experiance. majority of women do watever they want. being locked up is not socially accepted in the muslim world. we should avoide generalisation in order to be objective.

Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative?
Wrong, they can go out without male relative, my saudi freinds wen they were in college they never went home immeditly after finighsin classes, after classes finished which was like 3 p.m. they used to hang out till 7 or 8 p.m., all girls, no guys with them, dine out or shop or do watever they like, their familis didnt object, n it wasnt something unacceptable.

My other freind, she lived alone in an apartment while she was in collge, that wasnt something unheard of.

How do they get to the bank - they have drivers?
True, they have drivers coz they r not allowed to drive, but look at it from diffrent prespective, these ppl r felthy rich, they wear nothing but branded desingers clothes, they can afford as many drivers as they want. N with drivers they can go just anywhere they want to go any time they want. The driver stays in the car, n they hang out whereever they want n go back like 12 midnight. The car is just a mean of transportation. N u know wat saudi girls say, even if driving for women was to be allowed (which it will soon), thye would rather go with drivers coz thats much easier, n thats wat its like to be rich.

N for ur information, in emergencis women do drive here, like if their husbands or kids got sick n no one was there to take them to the hospital they sit in the dirving seat. Now u ask bt thats dangerouse coz they never drived before, i tell u nope wrong, they did, lots of girls here learn to drive wen they go camping or stuff like that.

Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?
Nope he cant, thats like I said isnt acceptable, she can protest n ask for help. Or she can file for divorce with her family' assurance that she got a home to live at.
U see a women will only accept to be a slave only if she was poor, or if there was no one to support her. Lots of women in western world stay in abusive relaitionshops coz there is no where for them to go, her father nor her brother will take her back coz she is the solo responsible of herself.

How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to.
They loose their dignity for few bucks, they make bussniss of their own flesh just to support themselves, who is the winner here n who is the loosers? The winner is the man coz he gets free flesh whereever he turns when ever he wants, he is the winner coz he dosent have to worry bout his daughters education or his sisters well being, they r "independent responsible adults as he is".

Who is the looser? the woman coz she sells herself, n she is forced to do that coz her father has abandond her n her brother dont car bout her. U think working as stripper or posing for semi nude pics makes her happy?! if u think so then u dont know wat a woman is, no woman would do that with a happy heart, she is forced to do that, forced by wat? forced by the living conditions of the western socites .

And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices.
Even in the east.


Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?
Women can vote in every Arabic country except saudi, in fact guys cant vote either in saudi coz there is no such thing as election.

can I Drive?, like i said i dont think that defins me, as long as I can go whereever I can n wenever I want, I am fine with it.

Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.


I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.

If I chose to work, I got so many options where I can work without loosing my dignity or without making myself cheap property. On top of that, watever I earn is MINE only, nither my father nor my husband can ask for my money or expect me to help him financiall (only if I chose so) so I am completly free to do watever I want with my money.

I inherit as my brother does, but he has to support his sister with that money while I dont have to, i can do watever I wish with that money.

I am not judged by my looks or my body, but only by my mind n personality. I am my own queen, no one owns me.

Well we can disagree forever, I guess each one of us got his/her own point of view in this matter, n since we r 2 diffrent persons we cant agree on everything, so I agree to disagree. N it was real pleasure to talk with u, I am impressed by ur analytical mind. Good job.
Reply

HeiGou
04-08-2006, 11:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill?
Maybe I didnt convey my point clearly, wat I am tryin to say is, these women r mothers, who want to live a good life, but unfortunatly end up with abusive partners, who dont just not listen but also abuse them mentally, emotionally n physically, also molest their own kids in many cases (n some times nighbour's also), they find their voices unheard, they find themselves unprotected, even if their partners were cought, they can easily walk free in matter of months, so these poor women restore to voilence. In a country where women's rights celebrated every year, I think this shouldnt be acceptable.
I don't think it is acceptable either but I doubt that by any measure domestic abuse in America is particularly high - not compared with, say, Gaza. Sure some women end up with abusive partners, but that is a universal problem, not just an American one.

I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.
If you are sure of wat u r saying, I cant argue any more here, I need to go back n check the facts.
You might like to look at http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/

Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me.
Well like i said, its not the norm, wen women r locked up all day at home, then thats by eastern standards abuse. I am speaking from my first hand experiance. majority of women do watever they want. being locked up is not socially accepted in the muslim world. we should avoide generalisation in order to be objective. [/quote]

But you are taking an extreme in America - women in prison! - and comparing that to the norm in Saudi? That's not fair. Of course in your own first hand experience you are unlikely to meet women who are locked up are you? They are, after all, locked up. You can go to a wide variety of Muslim sites and hear women who say they would like to go out but their husbands will not let them unless he is there. They are not allowed to work or even to go to the Mosque. I do not know how widespread it is, but is happens.

Why do you think that is abuse by eastern standards? Is it permitted? I gather men must not stop women studying Islam but can they stop them doing everything else?

Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative?
Wrong, they can go out without male relative, my saudi freinds wen they were in college they never went home immeditly after finighsin classes, after classes finished which was like 3 p.m. they used to hang out till 7 or 8 p.m., all girls, no guys with them, dine out or shop or do watever they like, their familis didnt object, n it wasnt something unacceptable.
Are you sure they can go out? You mean as long as they stayed within an all-female environment, they could "hang out"? But what if they wanted to walk down the street to a Mall? Could they do that without a male guardian being present?

How do they get to the bank - they have drivers?
True, they have drivers coz they r not allowed to drive, but look at it from diffrent prespective, these ppl r felthy rich, they wear nothing but branded desingers clothes, they can afford as many drivers as they want. N with drivers they can go just anywhere they want to go any time they want. The driver stays in the car, n they hang out whereever they want n go back like 12 midnight. The car is just a mean of transportation. N u know wat saudi girls say, even if driving for women was to be allowed (which it will soon), thye would rather go with drivers coz thats much easier, n thats wat its like to be rich.
Those people are filthy rich. And not all of them. But what about the poor Saudi women who have no drivers? I think women ought to be given choices myself.

Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?
Nope he cant, thats like I said isnt acceptable, she can protest n ask for help. Or she can file for divorce with her family' assurance that she got a home to live at.
How can she file for divorce? She can protest but do you agree that a woman needs to ask her husband's permission before she can work? Or go outside the home?

U see a women will only accept to be a slave only if she was poor, or if there was no one to support her. Lots of women in western world stay in abusive relaitionshops coz there is no where for them to go, her father nor her brother will take her back coz she is the solo responsible of herself.
I have yet to meet a Father or a Brother who will not look after their own. Besides, women work. They can leave any time they like - and most divorces are initiated by women these days.

How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to.
They loose their dignity for few bucks, they make bussniss of their own flesh just to support themselves, who is the winner here n who is the loosers? The winner is the man coz he gets free flesh whereever he turns when ever he wants, he is the winner coz he dosent have to worry bout his daughters education or his sisters well being, they r "independent responsible adults as he is".
I think that is for the women to decide. It is not free because men have to pay for it. Of course men have to worry about their daughters' education. And do. You have an odd view of the West.

Who is the looser? the woman coz she sells herself, n she is forced to do that coz her father has abandond her n her brother dont car bout her. U think working as stripper or posing for semi nude pics makes her happy?! if u think so then u dont know wat a woman is, no woman would do that with a happy heart, she is forced to do that, forced by wat? forced by the living conditions of the western socites .
I would not think so, but I am not a woman and I do not know. How do you think men in the West behave? Not like this I assure you. Some perhaps but then some do in the Muslim world too. Women have choices in the West. Lots and lots of them. Some good, some bad. You need to realise there is more to the West than Oprah.

And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices.
Even in the east.
Really? Which Eastern country has had a woman on the Supreme Court or any important woman who was not there because she was someone's sister, daughter or widow?

Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?
Women can vote in every Arabic country except saudi, in fact guys cant vote either in saudi coz there is no such thing as election.
Actually I think that in some Arab countries men still don't vote and Kuwait has just let women vote. So no freedom for Saudi women there.

can I Drive?, like i said i dont think that defins me, as long as I can go whereever I can n wenever I want, I am fine with it.
And can you go wherever you want whenever you want? What if your Father or husband forbids you?

Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.
Don't need your Father's permission?

I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.
Nice of them. What could you do if they chose not to?

If I chose to work, I got so many options where I can work without loosing my dignity or without making myself cheap property. On top of that, watever I earn is MINE only, nither my father nor my husband can ask for my money or expect me to help him financiall (only if I chose so) so I am completly free to do watever I want with my money.
As in the West as far as your money goes. But you have fewer options than Western women. And you do not degine what is cheap or what losing your dignity means do you? The government does that for you.

I inherit as my brother does, but he has to support his sister with that money while I dont have to, i can do watever I wish with that money.
Surely only half what he does?

I am not judged by my looks or my body, but only by my mind n personality. I am my own queen, no one owns me.
Except who is going to see your mind or personality? Is there a Saudi equivalent of Oprah? How many important Saudi women writers are there?
Reply

------
04-08-2006, 11:56 AM
Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.
Don't need your Father's permission?
Yep u do.
Reply

libyanhero
04-08-2006, 12:55 PM
Sisters I am by your side Inshallah don't let you hopes down

I don't believe a women should be killed in Islam no matter what she does and thats because it tells us in the quran not to kill women children or the elderly.

Why because men kill for envy and women kill for reasons, not saying that reason is legitimate but yah if she gets a divorce she will also be killed sooner or later or lives in fear of the possibility he will kill. When a man kills he has a gut feeling to slaughter style with all confidence, when a women kills she is shaky and shivering still in rejection why because the poor women wouldnt kill a thing but in this case if the man harms the children or molests them yah he should be killed.
Reply

libyanhero
04-08-2006, 01:06 PM
The women is a mother she loves her children more than the world she has special status in Islam, on the other hand if the man harms the children yah chop his head off how can he touch those little angels like that. Men and women are different in Islam so the difference is that women are not to be killed but yes, she did it for the protection of her children and yes that is worser than fornication and should be punished what he is having indecency with his children what a role model for the household.

On the other hand a woman is brave to chop his head off but she didnt have to do it, if it was a country living by the shariah law she could of went to the authorities responsibility but since there is no Islam and now sharian law then live in chaos what much can u say when the world is corrupt
Reply

Noora_z3
04-09-2006, 10:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't think it is acceptable either but I doubt that by any measure domestic abuse in America is particularly high - not compared with, say, Gaza. Sure some women end up with abusive partners, but that is a universal problem, not just an American one.
I do think domestic abuse in America is very high, generally crime rate is very high. U check the statistics.


But you are taking an extreme in America - women in prison! - and comparing that to the norm in Saudi? That's not fair.
I didnt, I was trying to say look at the condittion of women in the west, wen they r supposed to be honord n protecting n dignifid, they r left hopeless instead. I didnt compare them to the norm in Saudi. U r the one who brought the eastern n the muslim world in the picture.

Of course in your own first hand experience you are unlikely to meet women who are locked up are you? They are, after all, locked up. You can go to a wide variety of Muslim sites and hear women who say they would like to go out but their husbands will not let them unless he is there. They are not allowed to work or even to go to the Mosque. I do not know how widespread it is, but is happens.
Oh no, I do know such women, who r suffuring with abusive partners. it does happen in a very small percentage. Most femals in saudi (which is described as the home of opression) enjoy wide range of freedom.


I gather men must not stop women studying Islam but can they stop them doing everything else?

Nope men cant stop women from doing the things they like to do as long as it is withing the boundris of Islam.

Are you sure they can go out? But what if they wanted to walk down the street to a Mall? Could they do that without a male guardian being present?
Yes women in the muslim world n in saudi go out all by themselves without any male gurdian, they can walk down the street to a mall or to a beauty palour or to a toilor, wherever they want. I meet my freind in Starbucks, just me n her for like 2 hours, lots of girls do the same.
Come to saudi once, n u will be surprised.

Those people are filthy rich. And not all of them. But what about the poor Saudi women who have no drivers? I think women ought to be given choices myself.
I expect poor saudis cant offord cars in the first place, anyways they still can use cabs or buses.

How can she file for divorce?
She goes to the court n says her hubby is abusing her, present the evidence, n hope the judge will rule for her.

[/quote]
She can protest but do you agree that a woman needs to ask her husband's permission before she can work? Or go outside the home?
[quote]


Nope I dont think that a woman needs to ask her husbands permission before she can work or work outside, a succesful marrige is wen decisions r taken mutually.


I think that is for the women to decide. It is not free because men have to pay for it. Of course men have to worry about their daughters' education. And do. You have an odd view of the West.
Maybe i do.

I would not think so, but I am not a woman and I do not know. How do you think men in the West behave? Not like this I assure you. Some perhaps but then some do in the Muslim world too. Women have choices in the West. Lots and lots of them. Some good, some bad. You need to realise there is more to the West than Oprah.
Yes I agree women in the west have far more opoortunits than women in the east. But she lost a lot in the same time. The price was too high I belive.


Really? Which Eastern country has had a woman on the Supreme Court or any important woman who was not there because she was someone's sister, daughter or widow?
Pakistan n Bangaldish both had Femal President, the highest post in the country, American never had one, n I strongly doubt they will.

And can you go wherever you want whenever you want? What if your Father or husband forbids you?
if they have a valid reason then I will accept their decision, but no, it never happend that they stopped me from going where i want coz I always tried to stay within the boundris of Islamic law.

Don't need your Father's permission?
In the Hanfi School of thought, a girl doesnt need her father's permission.
Why permission is needed? u see coz girls n guys r not allowed to interract freely, so how can a girl by herslef know if this guy is good enough or not. I mean only the male guardian can check n cross check the guy who wants to marry his daughter. Also elders openion is very valued in the Islamic culture. But lets not forget that a father CANT force his daughter to marry some one she dont agree too. n he cant refuse a guy for no reason unless there is strong valid reason, he has no right to refuse a guy. So He is still bound to marry her off to the guy of her choice.

I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.
Nice of them. What could you do if they chose not to?
They wont only if they cant offord it, i would be crazy to ask them for something they cant offird.

As in the West as far as your money goes. But you have fewer options than Western women. And you do not degine what is cheap or what losing your dignity means do you? The government does that for you.
My nature defins wat cheap n wats loosin my dignity means to me, the true nature which i maintaned it follwing Islam. The goverment is helping me n makin the path easier for me.

Surely only half what he does?
Yup I get half of his share of inheritence, only coz he is obliged to spend on me my sister n my mom while I am not. Dont u think thats fair?

Except who is going to see your mind or personality?
First Allah will, from Him i get my biggest reward n satisfaction.
Trust me there r others to see my mind n presonality, we do have lots of options in the muslim world.

Is there a Saudi equivalent of Oprah? How many important Saudi women writers are there
There r many dear...the list is endless.
Reply

HeiGou
04-09-2006, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I don't think it is acceptable either but I doubt that by any measure domestic abuse in America is particularly high - not compared with, say, Gaza.
I do think domestic abuse in America is very high, generally crime rate is very high. U check the statistics.
I posted this from a WHO report in domestic violence earlier this week. It is a table of Physical Assaults on Women by Intimate Male Partner, 1982-1999. The first figure is the number that have been assaulted in the previous year, the second the number ever as percentages.

Ethiopia, 10, 45
Nigeria, --, 31
Canada, 3, 29
United States, 1.3, 22
Bangladesh, 19, 47
Turkey, --, 58 (east and south-east Anatolia)
Egypt, 16, 34
Israel (Arabs), 32, --
West Bank & Gaza, 52 (any), 37 (severe), --

Draw your own conclusions. I do not think the US has a problem with its 1.3 percent compared to Gaza's 52.

But you are taking an extreme in America - women in prison! - and comparing that to the norm in Saudi? That's not fair.
I didnt, I was trying to say look at the condittion of women in the west, wen they r supposed to be honord n protecting n dignifid, they r left hopeless instead. I didnt compare them to the norm in Saudi. U r the one who brought the eastern n the muslim world in the picture.
How are they hopeless? Ruth Bader Ginsburg sits on the Supreme Court. She did not get there because she was pretty. She did not get there by flaunting herself. She got there because she is smart, educated and hard working. Not because she was someone's sister. Where is the Muslim equivalent?

Oh no, I do know such women, who r suffuring with abusive partners. it does happen in a very small percentage. Most femals in saudi (which is described as the home of opression) enjoy wide range of freedom.
As long as their Fathers and husbands allow them? In the West what seems normal in Muslim society would be called false imprisonment and result in a jail term.

I gather men must not stop women studying Islam but can they stop them doing everything else?
Nope men cant stop women from doing the things they like to do as long as it is withing the boundris of Islam.
Yes. But what is within the boundaries of Islam? A wife has to protect her husband's honor and belongings no? Cana husband interpret that to mean she cannot go out to work? Does a woman need her husband's permission to work in Islam or at least the Saudi interpretation of Islam? Aren't women required to obey their husbands in everything not forbidden by Islam?

How can she file for divorce?
She goes to the court n says her hubby is abusing her, present the evidence, n hope the judge will rule for her.
So no. She can petition a Court to grant her a divorce. Does that happen a lot in Saudi Arabia - courts giving divorces?

She can protest but do you agree that a woman needs to ask her husband's permission before she can work? Or go outside the home?
Nope I dont think that a woman needs to ask her husbands permission before she can work or work outside, a succesful marrige is wen decisions r taken mutually.
Some (relative) moderates would disagree with you

Preventing Wife From Going to Work
Date of Reply 19/May/2005
Topic Of Fatwa Marital relationships
Country Applied Malaysia
Question of Fatwa If a married woman wants to work outside the home, is she obliged to get her husband’s permission? Is it lawful for the husband then to prevent her from going to work? Likewise, is it permissible for a woman to stipulate before marriage that she work outside the house after marriage? If so, would this condition be binding upon the husband? Can he take back his approval of her working after marriage? Would it be permissible for him to stipulate that she share in paying the household expenses in return for his approval of her working? If she helps her husband financially to buy a certain property, does she have the right then to be a co-owner of this property? Or will her participation here be to no avail? Is it permissible for the husband to prevent his wife from going to work solely to cause her harm, or because she continues working when this is against the interest of her family?
Name of Mufti Islamic Fiqh Academy
Content of Reply
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His sake.

The relationship between spouses is based on mutual affection, mercy, and kindness. This is in addition to the mutual duties and rights they owe to each other. The husband is to provide his wife with a dwelling, sustenance, clothing, and medical care as needed, according to his income.

The wife, in turn, is to observe her marital obligations to endear herself to her husband and to make their home clean and comfortable so that the husband can find rest and relaxation in it.

The woman may stipulate beforehand that she work outside the house after marriage. If the fiancé agrees to this, he has to fulfill his promise after marriage unless her work would then negatively affect her marital obligations, in which case he can prevent her from working.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Really? Which Eastern country has had a woman on the Supreme Court or any important woman who was not there because she was someone's sister, daughter or widow?
Pakistan n Bangaldish both had Femal President, the highest post in the country, American never had one, n I strongly doubt they will.
Yes. Benazir Bhutto who happens to be the daughter of the previous President Zulfikir Bhutto in Pakistan. And Bangladesh has Khaleda Zia, widow of Ziaur Rahman and Sheikh Hasina Wajed, eldest child of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman. As I said, Ginsburg got there on her own, not because of feudal ties that elevates the widows and daughters of powerful men.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
And can you go wherever you want whenever you want? What if your Father or husband forbids you?
if they have a valid reason then I will accept their decision, but no, it never happend that they stopped me from going where i want coz I always tried to stay within the boundris of Islamic law.
And what if you think they do not have a valid reason and you want to go somewhere anyway - who is entitled to call the police and ask for legal help to get what they want?

In the Hanfi School of thought, a girl doesnt need her father's permission.
Which isn't followed in Saudi Arabia I thought?

Why permission is needed? u see coz girls n guys r not allowed to interract freely, so how can a girl by herslef know if this guy is good enough or not. I mean only the male guardian can check n cross check the guy who wants to marry his daughter.
So girls can't go out anywhere they might meet boys?

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.
Nice of them. What could you do if they chose not to?
They wont only if they cant offord it, i would be crazy to ask them for something they cant offird.
Well what if some other girl's parents were not so generous and they decided they did not want their daughter and sister to study or to work. Can they stop her if they want? Regardless of whether they can afford it or not?

But you have fewer options than Western women. And you do not define what is cheap or what losing your dignity means do you? The government does that for you.
My nature defins wat cheap n wats loosin my dignity means to me, the true nature which i maintaned it follwing Islam. The goverment is helping me n makin the path easier for me.
So you happen to agree with your government. Which is convenient. But what if the government decided they were being too liberal and toughen up the conditions so tightly you felt they were too extreme. What could you do about that?

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Surely only half what he does?
Yup I get half of his share of inheritence, only coz he is obliged to spend on me my sister n my mom while I am not. Dont u think thats fair?
No as it happens. But even if I did, it still would not be equality.

Except who is going to see your mind or personality?
First Allah will, from Him i get my biggest reward n satisfaction.
Trust me there r others to see my mind n presonality, we do have lots of options in the muslim world.
But for the rest of the world it means women being silent and quiet and never being heard. What use it is to have people respect you for your mind if, in fact, they never know what is there? This seems designed to prevent Muslim women from being respected for their minds, because who would know if any of them had one?

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Is there a Saudi equivalent of Oprah? How many important Saudi women writers are there
There r many dear...the list is endless.
I have time. Who are the important Muslima writers. Feel free not to restrict yourself to Saudi Arabia.
Reply

Noora_z3
04-09-2006, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE=HeiGou;249499]I
Draw your own conclusions. I do not think the US has a problem with its 1.3 percent compared to Gaza's 52.

I cant get it, how could u compare USA the most developed country in the world (industrial wise), with Gaza?!

How are they hopeless? Ruth Bader Ginsburg sits on the Supreme Court. She did not get there because she was pretty. She did not get there by flaunting herself. She got there because she is smart, educated and hard working. Not because she was someone's sister. Where is the Muslim equivalent?
Hopeless r those mothers in prison, not Ruth Bader.

As long as their Fathers and husbands allow them? In the West what seems normal in Muslim society would be called false imprisonment and result in a jail term.
Like I said, a husband or a father cant lock female members of the family inside the house.

Yes. But what is within the boundaries of Islam? A wife has to protect her husband's honor and belongings no? Cana husband interpret that to mean she cannot go out to work?
A husband cant stop his wife from working for no reason.

Does a woman need her husband's permission to work in Islam or at least the Saudi interpretation of Islam?
No she dosent need his permission.

Aren't women required to obey their husbands in everything not forbidden by Islam?
No

So no. She can petition a Court to grant her a divorce. Does that happen a lot in Saudi Arabia - courts giving divorces?
Yes

If the fiancé agrees to this, he has to fulfill his promise after marriage unless her work would then negatively affect her marital obligations, in which case he can prevent her from working.[/indent]
A Muslim woman knows that her first priority is her house, her kids n her husband, thats the role which was given to her in Islam. But that dosent make her any less. Now who decides at wat point woking outside is causing her to neglect her house n kids? Both the husband n wife, n so they sit n think whether she change the timings of her job, or she should change her job, or he should change his job, in this way they should reach a satisfactory solution for both of them. Can he come one day n just say "u women leave ur job coz I just dont like u out"?! nope he cant, he must respect his wife n treat her as an equel.

Yes. Benazir Bhutto who happens to be the daughter of the previous President Zulfikir Bhutto in Pakistan. And Bangladesh has Khaleda Zia, widow of Ziaur Rahman and Sheikh Hasina Wajed, eldest child of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman.
Oh come on, still they were elected coz the citizens of their respective countires felt that they can run the country. Now tell me if America Elected Hillary Clinton as the next president, would u say that she didnt deserve it n she is there only coz her hubby was ex-president?

And what if you think they do not have a valid reason and you want to go somewhere anyway - who is entitled to call the police and ask for legal help to get what they want?
hmmmmm, didnt get it.



So girls can't go out anywhere they might meet boys?
They do go out, shopping malls, hospitals, Hypermarkets, Grocery shops ..etc r not segregated, girls can meet any guy they want, but u see the majority dont coz they dont want to break the Islamic rules nor want to do things behind their paretns back. There r some girls who dose meat guys in malls, but thy r a minority, n they wont do it so publicly.


Well what if some other girl's parents were not so generous and they decided they did not want their daughter and sister to study or to work. Can they stop her if they want? Regardless of whether they can afford it or not?
A father cant stop his daughter from studying, coz its her basic right. Also from working unless there is a valid reason.


So you happen to agree with your government. Which is convenient. But what if the government decided they were being too liberal and toughen up the conditions so tightly you felt they were too extreme. What could you do about that?
That wont happen, so no need to worry. N even if it happened, well gonna take some action.


But for the rest of the world it means women being silent and quiet and never being heard. What use it is to have people respect you for your mind if, in fact, they never know what is there? This seems designed to prevent Muslim women from being respected for their minds, because who would know if any of them had one?
U talk as if all muslims women r just locked up in their houses. Thats not the case brother, we do hang around, we walk freely, we work like every one dose. U think we dont have clubs for femals? u think we dont have organizations where we can volunteer? u think we dont have Humanitarian activitis going around here?. Women can work anything as long as they dont cross the boundris, they can even communicate with guys wen only its needed, there r girls who run stors, who run whole bussniss, there is a yearly convention of Arabs Bussniess women held every year in Egypt. Femals can attend any conference of convention n express their openion the way they want to, dont judge the muslim world so harshly bro.


I have time. Who are the important Muslima writers. Feel free not to restrict yourself to Saudi Arabia
hmmmmmm, I will but not today.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-09-2006, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I posted this from a WHO report in domestic violence earlier this week.
And I responded to this twice:
http://www.islamicboard.com/242350-post34.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/221874-post42.html
How are they hopeless? Ruth Bader Ginsburg sits on the Supreme Court. She did not get there because she was pretty. She did not get there by flaunting herself. She got there because she is smart, educated and hard working. Not because she was someone's sister. Where is the Muslim equivalent?
The list of Muslim women who were jurists is endless. A brief sample.
In the West what seems normal in Muslim society would be called false imprisonment and result in a jail term.
Again your erroneous generalizations. I wonder how many Muslim societies you have lived in to make a claim that it is normal for women to be imprisoned in their houses? Or is this another media-based fallacy?

Yes. But what is within the boundaries of Islam? A wife has to protect her husband's honor and belongings no? Cana husband interpret that to mean she cannot go out to work? Does a woman need her husband's permission to work in Islam or at least the Saudi interpretation of Islam? Aren't women required to obey their husbands in everything not forbidden by Islam?
The position of the husband in Islam is not that of a dictator who can order the wife to do whatever he pleases. The wife and husband are to maintain the house according to mutual consultation. As the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. (Sunan Ibn Majah and Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully. (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

Thus, a husband and wife should cooperate and both agree on what is best for the family. If they are doing things against the will of eachother, then such a marriage will not be productive in any society, regardless of their religioin.
So no. She can petition a Court to grant her a divorce. Does that happen a lot in Saudi Arabia - courts giving divorces?
The woman's choice in divorce is something that has already been established by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself:
Bareerah’s husband was a man named Mugheeth. When Bareerah came to the Prophet for a divorce, Mugheeth came running behind Bareerah and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to ‘Abbaas, “O Abbas, are you not astonished at the love of Mugheeth for Bareerah and hatred of Bareerah for Mugheeth?” The Prophet P said to Bareerah, “Why don’t you return to him?” She said, “O Messenger of Allah, are you commading me to do so?” He said, “No I only intercede for him”. She said, “Then I am not in need of him.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Here we have a case where there was no abuse or ill-treatment, but the wife simply did not want to stay with her husband any longer for whatever reason. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh allowed her the divorce and did not prevent her.

And yes, this is also carried out in Saudi courts.
Question: If a woman wants a khul` separation because of her husband’s neglect and bad treatment, and he refuses to grant her request, can the judge force him to grant her a khul`?

Answered by Sheikh Hânî al-Jubayr, judge at the Jeddah Supreme Court

A khul` separation takes place by agreement between the husband and the wife. However, if a woman’s life with her husband becomes unbearable for some reason and her husband refuses to divorce her willingly or accept a khul` resolution, she may take her case before a judge who could terminate their marriage contract if he thinks there are valid reasons to justify it.

In case the husband leaves his wife for a long time and the wife suffers from his absence on account of lack of financial support or lack of fulfillment of her physical needs, she may request the judge to terminate her marriage.

Allah says: “For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives; a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 226-227].

In this case, the judge will summon the husband to attend the court and offer him a choice whether to divorce his wife or fulfill his marriage obligations. In case he refuses to do either, the judge will nullify the marriage.
And from Shaykh Munajjid commenting on another divorce narration:
The evidence for that from the Sunnah is that the wife of Thaabit ibn Qays ibn Shammaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I do not find any fault with Thaabit ibn Qays in his character or his religious commitment, but I do not want to commit any act of kufr after becoming a Muslim.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “Will you give back his garden?” Because he had given her a garden as her mahr. She said, “Yes.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Thaabit: “Take back your garden, and divorce her.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5273).

From this case the scholars understood that if a woman cannot stay with her husband, then the judge should ask him to divorce her by khula’; indeed he should order him to do so.
And from Shaykh Abdullah ibn Abdur-Rahman Ibn Jibreen:
Question: Is it possible for the wife to get a khula even if the husband will not agree to it? Can you mention some reasons ?.

Answered by Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Jibreen

If a woman dislikes her husband’s treatment of her – for example, he is over-strict, hot-tempered or easily-provoked, or gets angry a lot, or criticizes her and rebukes her for the slightest mistake or shortcoming, then she has the right of khula’ [female-instigated divorce].

If she dislikes his physical appearance because of some deformity or ugliness, or because one of his faculties is missing, she has the right of khula’.

If he is lacking in religious commitment – for example, he doesn’t pray, or neglects to pray in jamaa’ah, or does not fast in Ramadaan without a proper excuse, or he goes to parties where haraam things are done, such as fornication, drinking alcohol and listening to singing and musical instruments, etc. – she has the right of khula’.

If he deprives of her of her rights of spending on her maintenance, clothing and other essential needs, when he is able to provide these things, then she has the right to ask for khula’.

If he does not give her her conjugal rights and thus keep her chaste because he is impotent (i.e. unable to have intercourse), or because he does not like her, or he prefers someone else, or he is unfair in the division of his time [i.e., among co-wives], then she has the right to ask for khula’.

And Allaah knows best.

I have time. Who are the important Muslima writers. Feel free not to restrict yourself to Saudi Arabia.
For those you can find online, there is Amatullah Abdullah and Aisha Bewley, the latter being one of the most prolific translators of arabic books, besides writing her own books as well.

Regards
Reply

Mu'awiyah
04-10-2006, 08:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3
Here is a very interesting report. I picked some of the points and thought to share them with u guys adding some of my own comments and reflections.

March 23, 2005 ABC News: Inside a Maximum Security Women's Prison in Atlanta by "Primetime Live"'s Diane Sawyer.

First let me tell u that the report states that 99% of the women in maximum security prison are MOTHERS…..strange huh!



Personally I think that females tend to turn to violence as their last option, either for self defense or to protect their kids, which is in accord to their basic nature. A cat is so cute and calm, but once it becomes a mother and feels that her kids r endangered she becomes so wild and aggressive…..does any one blame these women?!!

Now check out this very astonishing statement….


Both, her and her boy friend, participated in committing this crime, she was given a death penalty and him life sentence with the possibility of parole?!!!...Something is stinking in here!!...

This whole thing of equality of men and women did so much harm for women all around the world, she asked for liberation, started to dress like men and work beside men, the irony?! She still works full time in her house in addition to her career, she have to sponser her family, she earns less than man, and if she wants to enjoy her pension, she should work till she is 67!!!...No woman can bear that, so she quit working before retirement age, here goes her pension!, the result is..75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women… who is gonna support her now?!..NO ONE..coz she asked for equality.

Now let’s see if she committed a crime, she tends to serve longer sentences than men. She asked for equality and they granted her more than wat she asked for. I feel sick every time I read such stuffs, one can see such reports screaming ‘injustice is committed against women in broad daylight’, some women unfortunately, r so confused, they forgot wat is liberation all about. Enslavement became synonymous to equality and liberation. All those who r wasting their efforts running after the wrong type of liberation… get real!!, look where women r really suffering and restore their lost rights, give them back wat they really deserve, dignity, respect, a life.

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.
:sl:

Welcome to the world of 'democracy'.
Reply

HeiGou
05-01-2006, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
to pay 4 the pools is ok as its been done in this country but the teachers i admit is a bit overboard :p
I think that the divorce laws would be more of a problem. In Sweden a woman can get divorced and does not have to stay in an abusive relationship. If the Swedish government gave a veto over divorce to Imams, can you imagine the problems? Would Swedish police be required to return battered wives to bad husbands? Would the laws on marital rape apply? It is a can of worms that should be kept shut.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-01-2006, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I think that the divorce laws would be more of a problem. In Sweden a woman can get divorced and does not have to stay in an abusive relationship. If the Swedish government gave a veto over divorce to Imams, can you imagine the problems? Would Swedish police be required to return battered wives to bad husbands? Would the laws on marital rape apply? It is a can of worms that should be kept shut.
then mayb they can do a benefit kind of law, in other words they pay for those who are struggling to afford it? we got tons of such benefits in this country. Widow benefit, disability, child etc
Reply

HeiGou
05-01-2006, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
then mayb they can do a benefit kind of law, in other words they pay for those who are struggling to afford it? we got tons of such benefits in this country. Widow benefit, disability, child etc
I may not understand Islamic divorce law properly. Please correct me if I am wrong, but a wife can only ask her husband for a divorce and offer him a lot of money in order to grant it. He does not have to, but he can if he wants. Is that right? I really don't see why the Swedish tax payer ought to be paying large sums of money in what would look a lot like extortion if Husbands just refused to grant divorces. And it does not solve the problem of making wives stay with husbands. Are the Swedish police really expected to enforce Muslim cultural norms on Swedish women who just happen to be Muslim?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-01-2006, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I may not understand Islamic divorce law properly. Please correct me if I am wrong, but a wife can only ask her husband for a divorce and offer him a lot of money in order to grant it. He does not have to, but he can if he wants. Is that right? I really don't see why the Swedish tax payer ought to be paying large sums of money in what would look a lot like extortion if Husbands just refused to grant divorces. And it does not solve the problem of making wives stay with husbands. Are the Swedish police really expected to enforce Muslim cultural norms on Swedish women who just happen to be Muslim?
what? i think theres a mahr which is given by the husband to the wife, if a divorce is desired then its required that the mahr be given bak to the husband. Correct me if im wrong some1. The wife duznt hav to dish anything out....
Reply

HeiGou
05-01-2006, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
what? i think theres a mahr which is given by the husband to the wife, if a divorce is desired then its required that the mahr be given bak to the husband. Correct me if im wrong some1. The wife duznt hav to dish anything out....
Well it is her mahr isn't it? So she is giving it back. The question is whether the khul divorce requires just the mahr or if it can be less or if it can be more. As far as I know, which is not far, it is usually the mahr because women rarely own any more. But if the bottomless pit of Swedish taxpayer money is involed.....

But perhaps we could turn this thread into something useful and ask a Mod to clarify the rules for a woman asking for divorce?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-01-2006, 08:34 PM
Hi HeiGou and :sl: 'Abd Majid,
I moved your posts here from the thread on Swedish Muslims.

HeiGou
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
But perhaps we could turn this thread into something useful and ask a Mod to clarify the rules for a woman asking for divorce?
My response hasn't changed from the one I gave you three weeks ago:
http://www.islamicboard.com/249963-post26.html

Since you never responded, it is possible you missed it, and hence why you raised the same misconception, therefore I've moved the posts to here.

Regards
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-12-2014, 08:33 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-31-2012, 07:30 PM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-17-2007, 03:08 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-11-2006, 07:32 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-01-2005, 07:22 AM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!