Errors

[searchingsoul]

Many websites use perceived errors in the Christian Bible to discredit Christianity.

Also, many websites use perceived errors in the Koran to discredit Islam.

Both religions are able to refute or justify the errors. Of course such refutations and justifications do not seem convincing to either religion.

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

[akulion]

I am sure you will find various articles in the refutations section of this website

If you read these you will see that the Islamic texts are usually backed by scientific facts and common sense facts and realities.

In comparison I personally find that in most debates with people of the Christian faith - I have been told to rely on "faith" quite heavily - when the fact is that I cannot rely on faith since I dont believe in Christianity.

It is a very long topic indeed, because this would cause each and ever claim to be put forward and viewed...so my best advice would be to read the refutations section and see for yourself :)

[searchingsoul]

I am sure you will find various articles in the refutations section of this website

If you read these you will see that the Islamic texts are usually backed by scientific facts and common sense facts and realities.

In comparison I personally find that in most debates with people of the Christian faith - I have been told to rely on "faith" quite heavily - when the fact is that I cannot rely on faith since I dont believe in Christianity.

It is a very long topic indeed, because this would cause each and ever claim to be put forward and viewed...so my best advice would be to read the refutations section and see for yourself :)

I've been reading through the refutations and they are convincing. I also find Christian refutations convincing.

[x Maz x]

^ MashAllah Aku Brother well said and aggreed WalaykumAsalaam...I would recommend listening to Naik's debate with William Campbell & Quran Vs Science, he provided a suffeicent amount of scientific evidence to back up Quranic ayahs ...Peace x

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[shahidiceprince]

Yes, Dr. Zakir Naik is a great scholar. It really amazes me how he does such deep research in the field he works in. I've also contacted him and am amazed by his intellectual thoughts.

[MMahdi]

Dr Zakir is a great man

[searchingsoul]

^ MashAllah Aku Brother well said and aggreed WalaykumAsalaam...I would recommend listening to Naik's debate with William Campbell & Quran Vs Science, he provided a suffeicent amount of scientific evidence to back up Quranic ayahs ...Peace x

Thanks, I'll listen to them. I still find the Christian refutations equally convincing. :?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

Saying "why are Muslim arguments good and not Christian arguments" is meaningless, you have to examine the specific arguments themselves, they are not the same.

Regards

[searchingsoul]

Saying "why are Muslim arguments good and not Christian arguments" is meaningless, you have to examine the specific arguments themselves, they are not the same.

Regards

I've been reading the refutations and learning a lot. At this point I don't find truth to be black and white.

[primitivefuture]

Is there anything about the Trinity in the Bible?

[searchingsoul]

Is there anything about the Trinity in the Bible?

Here's a good answer:

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts for many people to understand. This is basically because it is an area that, limited to our mortal three-dimensional state, we cannot fully comprehend. This does not mean we cannot apprehend the idea, just that we will never be able to grasp the entirety of what it means to be a triune being.

We can agree that God is infinite. He is not limited to our space or our time domain. God is also omnipotent. He is able to do whatever He pleases in accordance with His righteousness. When God revealed Himself to man, He did so as a triune being. He is One God comprised of three persons. Each person of the Trinity is distinct, yet all have all the attributes of God and all are considered God.

Any analogy I give will break down at some point, but I will try to demonstrate the concept of the Trinity a little more clearly. Picture a corporation owned and operated by only three partners. Now, suppose each partner knew that his associates would make decisions just as he would, and they would agree on every way to run their company, so they agreed that each one could make any legally binding decision as its spokesman. You could then safely say that the totality of that corporation is represented by each of those three individuals. Each has a separate role in the company, but each hold all of the power of the company and its finances. Each can be said to be the exact representation of the company. The company is only one, but it is represented to the public as three owners.

Now let's address your questions on the Biblical support of the Trinity. You are right in stating there is no one verse that explicitly defines the Trinity. However, in order to consistently interpret the Bible, the Trinity is the only logical solution. We can build this argument on three bases: the Bile's claim to who God is, what God's attributes are, and what our actions toward God should be.

First, we need to know who God is. The Father is called God in the Bible in Matthew 6:26,30. Jesus is called God in Hebrews 1:6 and John 1:1, 14. The Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4. All three are classified as God, but we know there is only one God-being. In order for both to be true, He must exist in three persons.

We also look at the attributes that God alone possesses. God is the creator (Genesis 1:1, Job 33:4, Isaiah 40:28). Jesus is called the creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:13,16), and the Spirit is called the creator (Genesis 1:2, Psa. 104:30). We know only God is eternal (for more, please see "Who Created God?" ) and the Father is called eternal (Psalm 90:2) Jesus is called eternal (John 1:1-2, John 8:58) and the Spirit is called eternal (Hebrews 9:14).

All the other attributes of God are ascribed to each of the Trinity. They are all considered omnipresent and omniscient. Each has the unique ability to forgive sins; a power that is possessed by God alone. Each is considered sovereign. Each is considered completely righteous. These are God's inherent attributes. They are part of the nature of God, as all humans have a natural desire to survive etc.

This may cause confusion when we look at your next question, "How is it that Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'". This statement, along with some others (1 Cor 11:3,1 Cor 15:28,etc) show Jesus relationship in regard to rank with the Father. This can be a difficult area, but let me illustrate. You have an inherent worth as a human being. Your life is valuable, and no other human life is more or less important than another intrinsically. All human life, from an intrinsic standpoint, is of equal value. The President of the U.S. is a person of perhaps greater rank than you, and therefore it is proper to offer him your respect, but he is no more valuable a human being than you. The same is true with the Father and Jesus. Christ did not start out as someone of lesser rank, but He was equal in all things with the Father. However Philippians 2:5-8 tells us "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

You see, Jesus is the "exact representation of the Father," and "in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9)." He is inherently God by nature. However, He has put Himself in subjection to the Father in terms of rank-- which is a far different thing.

Jesus also took on an additional nature, that of a man. Picture if you will a triangle. This will represent the God-nature. Now in one corner of the triangle draw a circle so the edges overlap. This is a crude idea of how Jesus shares two natures. The circle is Jesus' humanity. He can thus be both fully God and fully man.

I know that this can be a very difficult topic to try and get a handle on, but it is not unreasonable. There is nothing in the doctrine of the Trinity that requires one to dismiss the laws of logic. I hope this has helped you get a better idea of the Biblical foundation for the Trinity. May God bless you in your pursuit of Him.

The Trinity is one of the hardest concepts for many people to understand. This is basically because it is an area that, limited to our mortal three-dimensional state, we cannot fully comprehend. This does not mean we cannot apprehend the idea, just that we will never be able to grasp the entirety of what it means to be a triune being.

We can agree that God is infinite. He is not limited to our space or our time domain. God is also omnipotent. He is able to do whatever He pleases in accordance with His righteousness. When God revealed Himself to man, He did so as a triune being. He is One God comprised of three persons. Each person of the Trinity is distinct, yet all have all the attributes of God and all are considered God.

Any analogy I give will break down at some point, but I will try to demonstrate the concept of the Trinity a little more clearly. Picture a corporation owned and operated by only three partners. Now, suppose each partner knew that his associates would make decisions just as he would, and they would agree on every way to run their company, so they agreed that each one could make any legally binding decision as its spokesman. You could then safely say that the totality of that corporation is represented by each of those three individuals. Each has a separate role in the company, but each hold all of the power of the company and its finances. Each can be said to be the exact representation of the company. The company is only one, but it is represented to the public as three owners.

Now let's address your questions on the Biblical support of the Trinity. You are right in stating there is no one verse that explicitly defines the Trinity. However, in order to consistently interpret the Bible, the Trinity is the only logical solution. We can build this argument on three bases: the Bile's claim to who God is, what God's attributes are, and what our actions toward God should be.

First, we need to know who God is. The Father is called God in the Bible in Matthew 6:26,30. Jesus is called God in Hebrews 1:6 and John 1:1, 14. The Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4. All three are classified as God, but we know there is only one God-being. In order for both to be true, He must exist in three persons.

We also look at the attributes that God alone possesses. God is the creator (Genesis 1:1, Job 33:4, Isaiah 40:28). Jesus is called the creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:13,16), and the Spirit is called the creator (Genesis 1:2, Psa. 104:30). We know only God is eternal (for more, please see "Who Created God?" ) and the Father is called eternal (Psalm 90:2) Jesus is called eternal (John 1:1-2, John 8:58) and the Spirit is called eternal (Hebrews 9:14).

All the other attributes of God are ascribed to each of the Trinity. They are all considered omnipresent and omniscient. Each has the unique ability to forgive sins; a power that is possessed by God alone. Each is considered sovereign. Each is considered completely righteous. These are God's inherent attributes. They are part of the nature of God, as all humans have a natural desire to survive etc.

This may cause confusion when we look at your next question, "How is it that Jesus said 'the Father is greater than I'". This statement, along with some others (1 Cor 11:3,1 Cor 15:28,etc) show Jesus relationship in regard to rank with the Father. This can be a difficult area, but let me illustrate. You have an inherent worth as a human being. Your life is valuable, and no other human life is more or less important than another intrinsically. All human life, from an intrinsic standpoint, is of equal value. The President of the U.S. is a person of perhaps greater rank than you, and therefore it is proper to offer him your respect, but he is no more valuable a human being than you. The same is true with the Father and Jesus. Christ did not start out as someone of lesser rank, but He was equal in all things with the Father. However Philippians 2:5-8 tells us "Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

You see, Jesus is the "exact representation of the Father," and "in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9)." He is inherently God by nature. However, He has put Himself in subjection to the Father in terms of rank-- which is a far different thing.

Jesus also took on an additional nature, that of a man. Picture if you will a triangle. This will represent the God-nature. Now in one corner of the triangle draw a circle so the edges overlap. This is a crude idea of how Jesus shares two natures. The circle is Jesus' humanity. He can thus be both fully God and fully man.

I know that this can be a very difficult topic to try and get a handle on, but it is not unreasonable. There is nothing in the doctrine of the Trinity that requires one to dismiss the laws of logic. I hope this has helped you get a better idea of the Biblical foundation for the Trinity. May God bless you in your pursuit of Him.

http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp020.asp

[*charisma*]

Greetings,

Is it alright if i ask some questions i have of my own about the trinity, if that is alright since i dont wanna get off topic in respects that this is your thread and I dont want it to get closed or anything...i can start my own too if you'd rather.

regards,

[Tania]

All the other attributes of God are ascribed to each of the Trinity. They are all considered omnipresent and omniscient. Each has the unique ability to forgive sins; a power that is possessed by God alone. Each is considered sovereign. Each is considered completely righteous. These are God's inherent attributes. They are part of the nature of God, as all humans have a natural desire to survive etc.

In Jesus exactly that i found very above the humans: his teaching of kidness, making good against the human selfish nature, never turning the other cheek, giving up for his human life only to complete his work.:)

[Umar001]

I am very happy that this topic has come up, since many Muslims and Christians alike use very weak arguements to disprove each other's faith, and if only they would reverse the arguements they put forward they would realise the problem they bring.

I would say that although many websites do use weak and easy explainable arguements, there are some contradictions which cannot be brushed off and that is what you look for.


p.s @ charisma, are u doing a new thread for ur questions? and is that how u spell of course? (in ur sig)

[glo]

Many websites use perceived errors in the Christian Bible to discredit Christianity.

Also, many websites use perceived errors in the Koran to discredit Islam.

Both religions are able to refute or justify the errors. Of course such refutations and justifications do not seem convincing to either religion.

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

That's a great thread, searchingsoul! Thank you for starting it.

I get quite tired with people trying to disprove each others faiths.
As you say there are plenty of websites out there, existing to do just that - and it is all too easy to cut and paste whole pages to make one's point.

I believe that the real truth is in our hearts.
To believe in Christian/ Muslim teachings, we have to believe first and foremost that the Bible/ Qu'ran is God's word.

Much as I have read, I have yet to come across any argument which can truly prove the authenticity of either holy book. Whatever people may say, there is no proof out there! (at least not as yet)
We believe the Bible/ Qu'ran to be true, because either we desire it to be true or we have some inner conviction that it is true.

At the same time, when you believe 'your' holy book to be the true word of God, you are not going to be shaken by some minor inconsistencies or errors. God's truth lies beyond these things!

Sometimes I wonder whether a strong desire to disprove other faiths stems from a weakness in your own faith.
If I believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God, or Muhammed a great and the last prophet from God, what does it matter what other people think about it?
After all, both the Bible and the Qu'ran state that not all will choose to believe, and that some will find the teachings to be foolishness!

Just my penny's worth! :rollseyes

Blessings. :thankyou:

[Umar001]

I get quite tired with people trying to disprove each others faiths.
As you say there are plenty of websites out there, existing to do just that - and it is all too easy to cut and paste whole pages to make one's point.

I so don't get this, so like, what do you make of Jesus telling people not to do stuff like this and that, I mean wasn't he then telling the people that way is wrong do it my way?


[QUOTE=glo;334258]

I believe that the real truth is in our hearts.
To believe in Christian/ Muslim teachings, we have to believe first and foremost that the Bible/ Qu'ran is God's word.

Erm, Of course you believe in the books, but why you believe in either the Bible or Qu'ran is important, before even believing in the teachings or the books you have to establish which one you believe is correct?

Much as I have read, I have yet to come across any argument which can truly prove the authenticity of either holy book. Whatever people may say, there is no proof out there! (at least not as yet)

Can I ask, just of out curiosity what proof your looking for, I mean its personal so if you don't wanna say its ok.

We believe the Bible/ Qu'ran to be true, because either we desire it to be true or we have some inner conviction that it is true.

See if you just believe in something cos you desire to believe in it, then your just worshiping your desires, isnt it?
And it also depends on the conviction, see conviction can come through the realisation of believing you have found something to be true.

Like if you find the Bible to be true, whether you want to follow it or not, your convition will make you follow it.
How do you find the Bible to be true? Most people tend to use some 'proof'.

At the same time, when you believe 'your' holy book to be the true word of God, you are not going to be shaken by some minor inconsistencies or errors. God's truth lies beyond these things!

See this is probably the thing I really don't get, people say stuff like this, that if you really believe in something you will believe no matter what.
Thats just illogical, think about it, most of the people of Jesus' time believed in a messiah that would be a powerful dude king and so on, but Jesus still sent his disciples to preach, why? so the people who believed in other things would hear this preaching and reconsider their position, if they were 'true' believers they wouldnt follow Jesus but just blindly stick with their picture of a powerful messiah king.

It is Illogical, I mean, we believe in something becuse we think its the truth but if it then is shown not to be then still believing in it is just silly.

Sometimes I wonder whether a strong desire to disprove other faiths stems from a weakness in your own faith.

Again I hear this alot, but didn't Jesus tell the people to follow his way, tell them not to pray like the pagans and so forth, was it cos he was weak in faith? I doubt it, it was probably because Jesus knew the truth and Jesus didn't want people to be misguided.

In a similar sense, people who preach and show faults in other faiths, should not and some are not doing it to score points but because they dont want to see other misguided.

It is only logical taht if you see someone heading towards a fire you try to help them and stop them heading there, the quickest way is to tell them their route is not safe, if you show them that, then surely they will stop walking in that path. And you aint doing it because your worried about your route, your doing it out of worry for your friend's health.

After all, both the Bible and the Qu'ran state that not all will choose to believe, and that some will find the teachings to be foolishness!

Well, I mean just because something says that many will not believe don't mean that the few that will should not be sought after.

Hope I haven't come across as offensive or rude or something, just that some of the points made are some that I find hard to comprehend so Im trying to understand them.

please be patient with me

Eesa

[Hijaabi22]

Many websites use perceived errors in the Christian Bible to discredit Christianity.

Also, many websites use perceived errors in the Koran to discredit Islam.

Both religions are able to refute or justify the errors. Of course such refutations and justifications do not seem convincing to either religion.

How can Muslims find their justifications to be valid while the Christian justifications are invalid?

MAYBE U SHUD LISTEN TO DR ZAKIR NAIKS SPEECH, HE HAD A DEBATE WID A CHRISTIAN DUDE OVER THIS N BEAT HIM HANDS DOWN

[glo]

Hi IsaAbdullah

Thank you for your lengthy post. :)
I have a feeling that you misunderstood my post, so I won't go into replying to each of your sections.
Hope that's okay.

I am not saying that we shouldn't talk about our faiths.
You are right, Jesus gave us clear instructions to spread his message and teaching. Telling people about my faith is part of my faith.

What I cannot do is provide proof for my beliefs - that's the point I was making. We believe by faith, not by proof . That's the point I was making.
My faith comes from being convicted by the Holy Spirit. :statisfie

Muslim often say that their religion is infallible and can be proven in every way.
As searchingsoul at the beginning of the thread was pointing out, that is not the case. There are many websites which point out errors in the Qu'ran.

So the point I was making was that, in fact, neither Islam nor Christianity can prove in the scientific sense that their religion is the true message from God.
You may disagree with me, but that is my opinion. :)

Does this make it clearer?

Peace.

[Umar001]

I am sorry if I have misunderstood ya, and no worries about the replies.

The bit that I am stuck on is, "What I cannot do is provide proof for my beliefs - that's the point I was making." So how come your in the religion that your in, why not any other religion see this is what I don't get, if G-d wants us to get int he right faith why doesn't his path have proof? How can we recognise his way?

See I agree that there are websites which claim to point out errors in both the Bible and the Quran.

Yet I often see weak arguements and 'errors' which can be explained easly.

See the problem comes that from my view the 'errors' put forward against the Qu'ran are not 'errors' but stuff which is explainable.
But with the bible although there are many false website propagating false 'errors' there are some errors which cannot be explained. Which shows the Bible isn't the Word of the Almighty.

I disagree on the count that neither Christianity nor Islam can prove their faith scientifically, I think Islam can.

But as you have stated it is your opinion and this is mine.
Thank you for being patient with me even through my misunderstanding.

Peaceeeee

[glo]

The bit that I am stuck on is, "What I cannot do is provide proof for my beliefs - that's the point I was making." So how come your in the religion that your in, why not any other religion see this is what I don't get, if G-d wants us to get int he right faith why doesn't his path have proof? How can we recognise his way?

I believe that we follow God by faith. If anybody could prove God's existence, would not everybody believe in him?
How then would we need to seek a relationship with God?

I found a couple of Bible quotes which may demonstrate this view:

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans, 10:17)

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." (1 Corinthians 2:4/5)

Can you see that the emphasis is not on sounding clever and persuasive, and proving God's message, but on the Holy Spirit speaking to people's hearts and convincing them.
I think this is a vital difference between Islam and Christianity.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians, 2:13/14)

You see, what I believe will be foolishness to some. No surprises there!

See I agree that there are websites which claim to point out errors in both the Bible and the Quran.

Yet I often see weak arguements and 'errors' which can be explained easly.

See the problem comes that from my view the 'errors' put forward against the Qu'ran are not 'errors' but stuff which is explainable.
But with the bible although there are many false website propagating false 'errors' there are some errors which cannot be explained. Which shows the Bible isn't the Word of the Almighty.

I disagree on the count that neither Christianity nor Islam can prove their faith scientifically, I think Islam can.

I thought you might say that! ;D

But as you have stated it is your opinion and this is mine.
Thank you for being patient with me even through my misunderstanding.

Peaceeeee

No problem, IsaAbdullah. Nice chatting to you. And thank you for listening to my views too! :thankyou:

Peace.

[Umar001]

I believe that we follow God by faith.

I think its best if ya break down what you mean by faith, because I agree there's an element of faith in following G-d since none of us have seen him or nothing, but we don't at the same time follow the same path, theres a difference in the paths we follow to G-d, why are we going through different paths? Maybe because we feel our paths are the right one? Why do we feel that? Just because we have blind faith in it?

If anybody could prove God's existence, would not everybody believe in him?

I agree if we were to see G-d almighty then everyone would worship him straight, but this doesn't mean that G-d would leave us without any proof of His existance, we can prove his existance to a certain extent, but as the Jews did with Jesus and John according to the Bible, when John came not eating or drinking they called him a demon, when Jesus came with the opposite he was called a drunkyard, so people will always twist any proof thats brought to them, the truthful will be sincere though.

And that's logical, G-d wouldnt expect us to just believe for no reason, when theres no apparent distinction for that path of his. Having Him provide evidences that are short of seeing Him seems the most logical path.

How then would we need to seek a relationship with God?

Well we gonna be with G-d in paradise and still havea reletionship with Him, right?

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans, 10:17)

Yes you can have faith in something and believe it is true from hearing it I agree, but believing in something and establishing it's truth are different things, I could hear the weather report saying its raining outsite, but if I try to go outsite to establish that as truth and I actually find its sunny, then my believe and faith through hearing was truly there but it was established not to be a true belief when I found it was sunny outside.

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." (1 Corinthians 2:4/5)

Again I agree with this, same with Moses peace be upon him, his speech wasnt eloquent and so forth, but he brought forth demonstrations of G-ds power which were proofs for people, why so that people didnt just believe through the wisdom of men throught their eloquent speeches and so on but rested on something solid the demostration of G-ds power.

Can you see that the emphasis is not on sounding clever and persuasive, and proving God's message, but on the Holy Spirit speaking to people's hearts and convincing them.

Well isnt the fact that the Holy Spirit talks to someone proof for that person? That person would then have to ask himself if thats proof enough.

I think this is a vital difference between Islam and Christianity.

I don't what exactly you mean, but I will just mention, as you have said that the emphasis is not on US, me and you, Islam teaches taht too, we cannot guide who is misguided and we cannot misguide him who is guided.

As Muslims we are to understand:

YUSUFALI: It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
PICKTHAL: Lo! thou (O Muhammad) guidest not whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will. And He is Best Aware of those who walk aright.
SHAKIR: Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.


But we still have to:
YUSUFALI: Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
PICKTHAL: Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.
SHAKIR: Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.

Not so that faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but that people may come and the demonstration of the power of G-d through His Words.

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians, 2:13/14)

So a person who does not have the spirit cannot understand it, so I kinda cant be blamed for not understanding and following then?

You see, what I believe will be foolishness to some. No surprises there!

No matter what a person believes someone else is bound to think its foolish, but one should see why the person thinks its foolish.


PEACEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[afriend]

Yes, Dr. Zakir Naik is a great scholar. It really amazes me how he does such deep research in the field he works in. I've also contacted him and am amazed by his intellectual thoughts.

:thumbs_up

InshAllah I will be going to be in the IRF, after uni and stuff...

Check here:

http://is.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFi...ame=Zakir_Naik

I'm sure you will find what you are looking for here inshAllah!

[glo]

I agree if we were to see G-d almighty then everyone would worship him straight, but this doesn't mean that G-d would leave us without any proof of His existance, we can prove his existance to a certain extent, but as the Jews did with Jesus and John according to the Bible, when John came not eating or drinking they called him a demon, when Jesus came with the opposite he was called a drunkyard, so people will always twist any proof thats brought to them, the truthful will be sincere though.

I think we are not using the same definition of 'proof'
Here is a definition I found in www.dictionary.com:

The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

You are talking about using scripture as evidence to prove the truth of your religion. For you and me as believers in our faiths, our holy books have authority - therefore what we read in them can be used as evidence. But this authority only stands for other people who equally believe in the same religion.
Non-believers will not accept that evidence as truth.

Do you see the difference?
If you are looking for scientific evidence for the truth of our religion, I still state that neither you nor I can provide it - outside the direct teachings of our religions.

Yes you can have faith in something and believe it is true from hearing it I agree, but believing in something and establishing it's truth are different things, I could hear the weather report saying its raining outsite, but if I try to go outsite to establish that as truth and I actually find its sunny, then my believe and faith through hearing was truly there but it was established not to be a true belief when I found it was sunny outside.

How then would you describe how you personally have established the truth of your religion?
Through evidence? If so, what kind?
By putting scripture to the test? If so, how?
Through inner conviction? If so, how did you gain it?

Again I agree with this, same with Moses peace be upon him, his speech wasnt eloquent and so forth, but he brought forth demonstrations of G-ds power which were proofs for people, why so that people didnt just believe through the wisdom of men throught their eloquent speeches and so on but rested on something solid the demostration of G-ds power.

I agree. :)

Well isnt the fact that the Holy Spirit talks to someone proof for that person? That person would then have to ask himself if thats proof enough.

The presence and working of the Holy Spirit is plenty of evidence for me, but as I said earlier on, not for non-believers!

No matter what a person believes someone else is bound to think its foolish, but one should see why the person thinks its foolish.

PEACEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I agree again.

Peace.:)

[Umar001]

You are talking about using scripture as evidence to prove the truth of your religion. For you and me as believers in our faiths, our holy books have authority - therefore what we read in them can be used as evidence. But this authority only stands for other people who equally believe in the same religion.

See if someone has evidence or an argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true, it will compel that person regardless of their faith. On condition that the person is being true to themselves.

Non-believers will not accept that evidence as truth.

Well thats untrue, if that were the case you wouldnt have reverts and converts who move because they have felt compelled by the evidences and arguements asserting truth.

If you are looking for scientific evidence for the truth of our religion, I still state that neither you nor I can provide it - outside the direct teachings of our religions.

Bear with me its early here so I don;t get this bit.

How then would you describe how you personally have established the truth of your religion?
Through evidence? If so, what kind?
By putting scripture to the test? If so, how?
Through inner conviction? If so, how did you gain it?

Mixture of all of those if I understand correctly.

The presence and working of the Holy Spirit is plenty of evidence for me, but as I said earlier on, not for non-believers!

When you got the time and if it isn't too personal, can I ask what it is that the holy spirit has brought evidence of.
Again if it is something personal please feel free not to write abut it.

I agree again.

Well I have never spent so much time agreeing with someone lol.;D


PEACE