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Uthman
08-21-2005, 02:38 PM
Greetings Root,

Originally Posted by root
Also, again this site reffered to me as a Kaafirs, Getting tired of that racist remark.
Well, it depends on how you take it. It is not always intended in a racist manner. Sometimes it is just used to denote a non muslim.

:w:

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Ra`eesah
08-21-2005, 03:50 PM
Peace be to those who follow the guidance, and may the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon His final Prophet Muhammad, and to proceed..

The Arabic word known as "Kafir" is not a racist comment nor is it a slander. The word "KAFIR" is used loosely and most of the time misunderstood.

looking at the word "KAFIR" we see that it derives from the arabic root word KAFARA meaning "denier" or "concealer."

According to the arabic lexicon a Farmer would be called a "Kafir" because he plants the seeds and "Covers" them with soil.

In Quran this term has also been used for all those who hide things thou they are knowing its truthfulness. Any one who will not act according to the laws of Almighty they commit kufr.

So the kafir denies the existence of Reality and covers over the truth So its not a "racist remark" its just that the term "Kafir" is used to describe those who have "Disbelieved" in the message of Islam (i.e. the prophethood of Muhammad, the Qur'an being God's book and the Oneness of Allah). So I ask you do you believe that Allah is the One true God, and that Muhammad is His final Messenger and Prophet? Do you believe that the Qur'an is the flawless book revealed by Allah the Almighty Lord of the Worlds to His final Prophet Muhammad, through the Angel Gabriel?

If you answer is no to all or any one of these questions then you have "Kaffired in Islam", you are "rejecting" "denying" " concealing" Or, in more understandable transliteration, "You are a Kafir"


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Ra`eesah
08-21-2005, 03:58 PM
Just an interesting fact that i'd like to bring to your attention, that the english word "Cover" has infact undoubtedly derived from the arabic word "Kafir".

Allow me to explain why.

The "Ka" of "Kafir" sounds very similar to the "Co" of "Cover" when pronounced. - The only difference is that the sound changes from "KA" to "KO" when the vocal chords in your throat are positioned accordingly, without even having to move a muscle in your face to be able to change the sound.

The "F" in the word "Kafir" is very similar to the letter "V" in Cover - When pronouning the "F" in Kafir or the "V" in "Cover", notice that your front teeth come in contact with your botton lip, and you are able to switch from the "F" sound to the "V" sound without having to re-adjust the position of your teeth or lip. Another example we can use is the word "OF" notice that its spelled with the letter F and not V even though when pronounced its quite the contrary.

The "ER" in Cover also sounds very similar to the "IR" in "Kafir" - Note that the "E" and the "I" are very similar in pronounciation, and a few similarities between the two letters are:

1) They used together in many english words such as "FrIEnd" and "ScIEnce"
2) When you pronounce words such as "Position" it sounds like "Posishen", thus the similarity in pronounciation of the "E" in "Cover" and "I" in Kafir.

And needless to say, the final letter of the two words are identical, both being "R"

An important note to bring to your attention is the fact that the English language has been in use for only the past 1000 years (According to dictionaries and encyclopedias http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=english), where the Arabic language has been around for 1425 years. Obviously we conclude from this fact that that the word "Cover" did not even exist when the arabs were saying "Kafir".
After reading all of this evidence, does it leave any doubt in your mind that the English word Cover is derived from the Arabic word Kafir? Contemplate over it.


A final note to the non-Muslims here, research all of this for yourself and research the message of Islam, so that you may have peace with yourself and peace with the One who has created you out of nothing, and has made you into the perfectly modelled Human Being that you are, and who has blessed you with all of your 5 senses. He asks nothing of you but to worship Him the way He has commanded you to worship Him, for He is the Most Great, Most Wise and Most Merciful to His devout servant.
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Uthman
08-21-2005, 04:29 PM
:sl:

There are, in fact a variety of English words of Arabic Origin. You can find those here

:w:

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root
08-21-2005, 04:45 PM
Well, it depends on how you take it. It is not always intended in a racist manner. Sometimes it is just used to denote a non muslim.
You mean like describing a black person "------"!

In Quran this term has also been used for all those who hide things thou they are knowing its truthfulness. Any one who will not act according to the laws of Almighty they commit kufr.
I don't know about you but I would call that person a "Lier".....

After reading all of this evidence, does it leave any doubt in your mind that the English word Cover is derived from the Arabic word Kafir? Contemplate over it
Like a cover up, a Lie.

What about the Haram question?
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Uthman
08-21-2005, 05:02 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by root
You mean like describing a black person "------"!
The word ------ by definition is derogatory and offensive. The word Kaafir however can have different connotations depending on the way it is used. In a religion sense it means non-muslim but people sometimes adapt it's meaning to be a form of name-calling.

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Ra`eesah
08-21-2005, 05:05 PM
Assalamu'Alaykum

Ajeeb the word "cover" is not there... maybe i should write to them, anyhow root call them a liar fine now define the term LIAR?

A LIE is a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth

A LIAR Someone who HIDES the TRUTH....

and a liar who lies agains Allah and His messenger is considered a "Kafir" i.e. a "Disbeliever"

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czgibson
08-21-2005, 06:38 PM
Greetings everyone,
We've got some linguistic analysis creeping into the thread - I work with the English language in my job, so I hope you don't mind if I chip in here.
Originally Posted by 3washey
After reading all of this evidence, does it leave any doubt in your mind that the English word Cover is derived from the Arabic word Kafir? Contemplate over it.
I can say I still have some doubts, as the word seems to have European roots. Have a look at this etymology of "cover", from Dictionary.com:

[Middle English coveren, from Old French covrir, from Latin cooperre, to cover completely : co-, intensive pref.; see co- + operre, to cover; see wer-4 in Indo-European Roots.]

Was the word "kafir" around before Latin? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know.)

The word "------" has a straightforward root in the Latin word "niger", meaning "black". It originated as a purely descriptive term (as in the name of the country Nigeria), but has relatively recently become used as a term of abuse. So here again it seems that the definition of the word itself is not insulting, but its use can be.

3washey, thanks for the message to non-Muslim members - it shows a kind and tolerant spirit.

Peace
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Muezzin
08-21-2005, 06:49 PM
Er.. What was the topic of this thread again? :p
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czgibson
08-21-2005, 06:53 PM
Hi Muezzin,

Sorry I've gone a bit off-topic there, but I think it's still (tenuously) related to the original question....

Peace
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Muezzin
08-21-2005, 06:55 PM
Peace Czgibson,

I wasn't referring to you in particular, rather this entire linguistic tangent. Hmm...

I believe the answer to the original question was given in the second post.
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root
08-22-2005, 03:07 PM
So we consider 3Washy small print:

and a liar who lies agains Allah and His messenger is considered a "Kafir" i.e. a "Disbeliever"
then we see:

The word ------ by definition is derogatory and offensive. The word Kaafir however can have different connotations depending on the way it is used. In a religion sense it means non-muslim but people sometimes adapt it's meaning to be a form of name-calling
then finally:

The word "------" has a straightforward root in the Latin word "niger", meaning "black". It originated as a purely descriptive term (as in the name of the country Nigeria), but has relatively recently become used as a term of abuse. So here again it seems that the definition of the word itself is not insulting, but its use can be.
Is the word "Infidel" justifiable, if the word "Kaafir" is............

Afterall, "Kaafir" is racially aggrovating just like calling someone an Infidel.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-22-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by root
Also, again this site reffered to me as a Kaafirs, Getting tired of that racist remark.
What makes 'kaafir' a racist remark? Which 'race' is it discriminating against? What is the difference between 'kaafir' and 'non-muslim'?
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- Qatada -
08-22-2005, 03:15 PM
Thats kinda funi cz the definition for the word infidel is " One who has no religious beliefs."

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infidel
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Ra`eesah
08-26-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings everyone,
We've got some linguistic analysis creeping into the thread - I work with the English language in my job, so I hope you don't mind if I chip in here.


I can say I still have some doubts, as the word seems to have European roots. Have a look at this etymology of "cover", from Dictionary.com:

[Middle English coveren, from Old French covrir, from Latin cooperre, to cover completely : co-, intensive pref.; see co- + operre, to cover; see wer-4 in Indo-European Roots.]

Was the word "kafir" around before Latin? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know.)

The word "------" has a straightforward root in the Latin word "niger", meaning "black". It originated as a purely descriptive term (as in the name of the country Nigeria), but has relatively recently become used as a term of abuse. So here again it seems that the definition of the word itself is not insulting, but its use can be.

3washey, thanks for the message to non-Muslim members - it shows a kind and tolerant spirit.

Peace
753 BC was the traditional date of the founding of the city of Rome by Romulus. At this stage, Latin is the language spoken by several thousand people in and near Rome. However latin became a literary language in the 6th 7th century BC.

The word Kfar ( The Village) exsists in the hebrew language,

1. Hebrew existest long before Latin - approximately 3500 B.C.

2. Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages ( therefore if Kfar means Village in Hebrew, then we can alsoaccept that Kafir in Arabic means Farmer)




from this chart we can conculed that the word COVER ( the 8th word on the chart) originated from the Hebrew language and later on adopted by latin.

Was the word "kafir" around before Latin? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know.)
So the answer is- Yes Kafir DiD exsist before latin.
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czgibson
08-26-2005, 12:22 PM
Hello 3washey,

Excellent work - you've proven me wrong conclusively. :)

There's just one thing I'm not sure about - did the Hebrew word caphar mean "village" and "cover"? You say it meant village, and the chart you show says it meant cover - did one meaning somehow come out of the other over time?

Fascinating discussion - many, many thanks for your efforts. (I love being proven wrong!) :D

Peace
Reply

Ra`eesah
08-26-2005, 01:53 PM
Im assuming so because if u look and see now there will be some places where they will say that the word "kfar is Hebrew for "Village" either it has different meanings to that one word or like you said
one meaning somehow come out of the other over time
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searchingsoul
05-23-2006, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Thats kinda funi cz the definition for the word infidel is " One who has no religious beliefs."

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infidel
That's interesting. I always thought infidel was used to describe a non muslim. I keep learning!
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czgibson
05-23-2006, 04:25 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
That's interesting. I always thought infidel was used to describe a non muslim. I keep learning!
It is sometimes used in that sense, but it can be used for anyone who doesn't believe in your particular god, doctrine or ideology. Literally it refers to someone who is 'without faith', from the Latin in- (= not) and fides (= faith).

Peace
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Sabi
05-23-2006, 06:15 PM
Since Atheism in contrast to agnosticism is a belief system I wonder if there is a more appropriate word than infidel to apply to atheists.

:?

How about Malfidel?

:brother:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-23-2006, 06:37 PM
infidel
1460 (adj., n.), from M.Fr. infidèle, from L. infidelis "unfaithful," later "unbelieving," from in- "not" + fidelis "faithful" (see fidelity). In 15c. "a non-Christian" (especially a Saracen); later "one who does not believe in religion" (1526). Also used to translate Ar. kafir, from a root meaning "to disbelieve, to deny," strictly referring to all non-Muslims but virtually synonymous with "Christian;" hence, from a Muslim or Jewish point of view, "a Christian" (1534). (Online Etymology Dictionary)
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czgibson
05-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Sabi
Since Atheism in contrast to agnosticism is a belief system I wonder if there is a more appropriate word than infidel to apply to atheists.

How about Malfidel?
That means 'one with bad (or evil) faith', which is obviously just a value-judgment on your part. Plus it has ironic overtones if you're familiar with Sartre's concept of bad faith...

I don't see 'infidel' as being an inappropriate term for an atheist. As an atheist, I lack faith in a supposed being. The only faith I have in this regard is faith in a certain negative proposition (viz. "There is no god"). That's different from actually having faith in something, isn't it?

Peace
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Sabi
05-23-2006, 11:01 PM
To decide for oneself that there is a god or to decide for oneself that there is no god are both steps onto a path of faith whether that faith is positive (is) or negative (isn't) is irrelevant.

It is generally accepted that by knowledge alone, no one can know one way or the other, and that is the agnostic stance. So while an agnostic can be described as someone with no (fanatical agnostic i.e. does not believe in anything outside of own personal experience/exposure their only faith is in what they themselves percieve and even then they ponder about that e.g. descartes) or little (moderate agnostic, i.e. is willing to accept evidence which has some objective concensus of approval concerning it even though s/he personally did not discover the evidence, hence they have faith in people) faith, an atheist is undeniably within a faith system. The few true atheists I have met in life have all conceeded that it is a negative faith.

If you don't like the word malfidel then we need two words, one for positive faith (is) and one for negative faith (isn't), but I am sure that the vast vocabularies in English and arabic already have words for these if we look for them. Does anyone have any suggestions?

:brother:
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SirZubair
05-24-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by primitivefuture
He meant that kaffirs, as humans and creations of God, don't deserve to enjoy this planet when they fail to obey their Creator.
The word Kuffar is a collective term, not a particular. In Islamic learning the term is clasified as a "Universal". In other words one should not call people Kaafir specifically. The Prophet forbade us to label people specifically. Rather he said that collective mention is acceptable. He himself did this. From this, a rule is established, as outlined in Mahaaram al-Lisaan (Prohibitions of the Tongue).

The particular of the term Kaafir is left to a process, where a Qadi is required to call upon the specific person to give evidnece of his or her rejection. Whilst this is not done upon every person, the objective is that if a person is seen as hostile to Islam, and there is some need for this. This is very much a theoretical issue in today's world, but it provides weight to the issue and why we do not call people "you are a kaafir".

The term is used upon people by their open and actual action which is clearly and openly disbelief. The Term Kufr is used, to refer to an act of open rejection despite knowing the truth. And there are different levels of Kufr as well, according to the consensus of the Rightly Guided Scholars. So, one would say, "such and such actions are acts of Kufr, and those who do so, are Kuffar".

Allah used the term in the Qur'an as a Universal Descriptive/Specific (for those who have studied logic...) [Dhaati al-Fasl]. There is no right given to point fingers at others. The descriptions define actions not any people. also, let us not think that simply because Allah calls people of certain action Kuffar, that we can too... we are not Allah, A'udhubillah.

( Not my words - words of my Ustad / Teacher )

For more , click Here

..And seriously,KID,learn some Adab.

Im sorry if it seems like i pick on you alot,im not picking on you,you make yourself a very easy target.

Wa'salam.
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SirZubair
05-24-2006, 11:21 AM
The word Kuffar is a collective term, not a particular. In Islamic learning the term is clasified as a "Universal". In other words one should not call people Kaafir specifically. The Prophet forbade us to label people specifically. Rather he said that collective mention is acceptable. He himself did this. From this, a rule is established, as outlined in Mahaaram al-Lisaan (Prohibitions of the Tongue).

The particular of the term Kaafir is left to a process, where a Qadi is required to call upon the specific person to give evidnece of his or her rejection. Whilst this is not done upon every person, the objective is that if a person is seen as hostile to Islam, and there is some need for this. This is very much a theoretical issue in today's world, but it provides weight to the issue and why we do not call people "you are a kaafir".

The term is used upon people by their open and actual action which is clearly and openly disbelief. The Term Kufr is used, to refer to an act of open rejection despite knowing the truth. And there are different levels of Kufr as well, according to the consensus of the Rightly Guided Scholars. So, one would say, "such and such actions are acts of Kufr, and those who do so, are Kuffar".

Allah used the term in the Qur'an as a Universal Descriptive/Specific (for those who have studied logic...) [Dhaati al-Fasl]. There is no right given to point fingers at others. The descriptions define actions not any people. also, let us not think that simply because Allah calls people of certain action Kuffar, that we can too... we are not Allah, A'udhubillah.


( Not my words - words of my Ustad / Teacher )

For more , click Here

Wa'salam.

-Zubair
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SirZubair
05-24-2006, 11:27 AM
Kafir (according to dictionary.com) = A tropical African variety of sorghum (Sorghum bicolor) grown in dry regions and in the Great Plains for grain and forage.

:giggling:

So it looks like we're making furniture polish out of the remains of the non-muslims? :giggling:

..Bad joke ;D
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Ghazi
05-24-2006, 11:51 AM
:sl:

^ So the word kafir is not allowed to be used by anyone other then allah.
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SirZubair
05-24-2006, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

^ So the word kafir is not allowed to be used by anyone other then allah.
( Not my words - words of my Ustad / Teacher )
Im simply posting the opinion of my Teacher.

You can make up your own mind about how you want to go about it :)

wa'salam
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-24-2006, 12:14 PM
Well, the word kaafir can be seen as offensive by some people so when addressing a non-muslim i tend to use 'non-muslim'. But there are some people on this forum who are comfortable to call themselves kaafir.
:w:
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Abdullah4ever
05-24-2006, 12:19 PM
:sl:

For those who believe,

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125d:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a man says to his brother, O Kafir (disbeliever)!' Then surely one of them is such (i.e., a Kifir). "
Sahih BUkhari:Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125m: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, 'If anyone says to his brother, 'O misbeliever! Then surely, one of them such."
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Ghazi
05-24-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Well, the word kaafir can be seen as offensive by some people so when addressing a non-muslim i tend to use 'non-muslim'. But there are some people on this forum who are comfortable to call themselves kaafir.
:w:
:sl:

I understand, I won't go up to someone and call them a disbelieve just to get their attention, but that won't change the fact that the person is a disbeliever and the way I see it I don't mean it in an insulting manner I'll adresss disbelievers as a whole by the term ''Kafir''.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-24-2006, 12:28 PM
Wow. May Allah reward everyone who contributed to this thread. I genuinely learnt alot.
:w:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-24-2006, 12:30 PM
That's ok. Just make sure they understand you don't mean it in an insulting manner insha-Allah.
:w:
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searchingsoul
05-24-2006, 02:20 PM
:?
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

I understand, I won't go up to someone and call them a disbelieve just to get their attention, but that won't change the fact that the person is a disbeliever and the way I see it I don't mean it in an insulting manner I'll adresss disbelievers as a whole by the term ''Kafir''.
Since this is an Islamic forum non-Muslims shouldn't be offended by being called Kafir. If they are called Kafir in public it would be offensive. Of course there are numerous words some non-Muslims use to describe Muslims. I take it that a lot of you on this forum do not mind being referred to by such names (when you are in the minority).:?
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HeiGou
05-24-2006, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Since this is an Islamic forum non-Muslims shouldn't be offended by being called Kafir.
That's like saying that Britain is a Christian country so Muslims shouldn't mind being called "Mahometans" or much worse. Zhu Xi said a gentleman does not take his hat off even in private. Nor should people be rude to each other just because they are on "safe" ground.
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searchingsoul
05-24-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
That's like saying that Britain is a Christian country so Muslims shouldn't mind being called "Mahometans" or much worse. Zhu Xi said a gentleman does not take his hat off even in private. Nor should people be rude to each other just because they are on "safe" ground.

You make a valid point. I don't think that non-muslims should be referred to as kafir on this forum. Since it is a private forum muslims have the right to call non-muslims kafir. Personally I think that since the General Guidelines are:

1. Help build an e-Muslim community that supports each other, and promotes the Islamic image..
2. The purpose of this forum is to educate non-Muslims and Muslims about Islam and its tenets.

...then it would be in the best interest of this forum to appeal to non-Muslims in a manner in which they find respectful. Being perceived as respectful will do more for the image of Islam and may even win over some souls. Just my opinion.:)
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primitivefuture
05-24-2006, 03:30 PM
Being called kafir is nothing compared to the illogical and ignorant insults a Muslim would get in a Christian forum.
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searchingsoul
05-24-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by primitivefuture
Being called kafir is nothing compared to the illogical and ignorant insults a Muslim would get in a Christian forum.
I prefer that all people refrain from insults. It does much more for both religions. :)
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-24-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
That's like saying that Britain is a Christian country so Muslims shouldn't mind being called "Mahometans" or much worse. Zhu Xi said a gentleman does not take his hat off even in private. Nor should people be rude to each other just because they are on "safe" ground.
But you yourself call yourself a kaafir. Do you think the word is offensive? Why then do you call yourself by it then?
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Templar Knight
05-24-2006, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
But you yourself call yourself a kaafir. Do you think the word is offensive? Why then do you call yourself by it then?
It's called subtle sarcasim
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-24-2006, 03:48 PM
He didn't sound sarcastic to me, but ok, if that's what he meant by it.
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czgibson
05-24-2006, 05:05 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Sabi
To decide for oneself that there is a god or to decide for oneself that there is no god are both steps onto a path of faith whether that faith is positive (is) or negative (isn't) is irrelevant.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here, although the discussion is interesting.

I'm not denying that atheism involves a negative type of faith at all, I'm simply saying that I think 'infidel' is a suitable word for an atheist. This point of view comes from the fact that the noun 'infidel' is almost always used in reference to religion, so the type of faith that an infidel does not have is religious faith, rather than another type of faith, such as faith in propositions, for example.

It is generally accepted that by knowledge alone, no one can know one way or the other, and that is the agnostic stance.
Tautology?

So while an agnostic can be described as someone with no (fanatical agnostic i.e. does not believe in anything outside of own personal experience/exposure their only faith is in what they themselves percieve and even then they ponder about that e.g. descartes)
I'm not sure that was really Descartes' position, although it was certainly one that he wrestled with. Of course here you're talking about 'agnostic' in the wider sense of total scepticism about the possibility of knowledge and fence-sitting on just about every question.

or little (moderate agnostic, i.e. is willing to accept evidence which has some objective concensus of approval concerning it even though s/he personally did not discover the evidence, hence they have faith in people) faith, an atheist is undeniably within a faith system. The few true atheists I have met in life have all conceeded that it is a negative faith.
Of course. It is faith in a negative proposition. I do not say that I know there is no god, I simply believe that that is the case.

If you don't like the word malfidel then we need two words, one for positive faith (is) and one for negative faith (isn't), but I am sure that the vast vocabularies in English and arabic already have words for these if we look for them. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Believer, non-believer. Theist, atheist. Person of faith, infidel.

Peace
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SirZubair
05-24-2006, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by primitivefuture
Being called kafir is nothing compared to the illogical and ignorant insults a Muslim would get in a Christian forum.
"A Believer is like a tree. You throw rocks at it, it replies you with fruit."
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Rou
05-24-2006, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Sounds like how the West treats Muslims only less so.



Indeed. Mind you they also had to pay special taxes. As a Muslim in the West, do you?



Well that is not entirely true depending on what you mean by "Muslim". The Dhimmi status was only ever offered to Jews, Christians, Sabians, Zoroastrians and eventually Hindus in practice but not in theory wasn't it? Pagans were not given a choice, they had to convert.



I would argue that the more experience people have of Islam as it is actually practiced, or at least has been in the past, the more they fear Islam. Greece is not known for its fondness for Turkey, nor India for Pakistan, nor Israel for any Arab nation. Japan on the other hand has no idea what being ruled by Muslims means and so there is ignorance but no fear. Would you say that is a fair comment or perhaps you have some counter-examples of non-Muslim countries which really get on well with their Muslim neighbors - Serbia perhaps?



nd yet everyone is here complaining about America striking back when attacked.



And so has America. Is that their right to do so?
once again hei gou you have answered in ignorance of what you truly speak of?

why do you continue to try and bring islam down out of hate if you have valid questions fair enough but as i said you seem tto mbe aiming to bring it down beacuse its islam or they are muslims...

america as peacful was it?

so america didnt do anything and muslims just decided they would start to attack this country is that what you beleive? i suggest you do a little more research before talking about something...

i pay tax to the country indeed i do...and you say those who were not muslim were made to pay tax!? indeed you are correct they paid tax just as i do in this country whats your point???

the tax that non muslims paid in a muslim state was nothing compared to the fact that they were defended within that state by muslim soilders adn the fact that muslims had to pay the zakat that was considrebly higher than the tax of the non muslims. within the state where non muslims resided they were protected just as i am in this country however they were given a lesser tax to pay and not expected to fight in any army that was to protect the land onthe other hand the muslims were expected to stand up to fight the enemy if attacked where as the non muslims could leave...

as i said i suggest you do your research before talking nd stop attacking islam on the basis o india and pakistan and dont tell me indians dont like pakistan on the basis of it being a muslim state ok mate cos its on the basis of kashmir not being muslim as there are thousands of muslims in india.

and i doubt they have the same sadistic view as yourself...

and no one was MADE to convert and if people make another forcully convert then that is not islam...for to force someone to in to any religon is against the religon itself...

fear of islam!?? is nothing but ignorance of islam...you fear that which you do not understand ...and that is your weakness you attack that which you hardley know anything about...

is it not strange..you are the one who is attacking yet no one here is talking of your religon or land??

yet you seem freely to be able to question islam its followers and judge what it all means...

your fear leads your judgment and any judgment made in fear and ignorance is most likley incorrect..

do not make enemies of those who do not wish to be your enemy...for it makes no sense...

as i said no one is attacking you so it seems irrelvent for you to attack them...

seek justice not enemies...
Reply

Ghazi
05-24-2006, 10:29 PM
:sl:

Ok so how about the word disbeliever then anyone got a problem with that, btw I know it's the same thing but I'm guessing some people might find it acceptable since they know what it means.
Reply

dishdash
05-25-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

Ok so how about the word disbeliever then anyone got a problem with that, btw I know it's the same thing but I'm guessing some people might find it acceptable since they know what it means.
No. I have a problem with it. I am highly offended by it. Please don't use it. I find it completely objectionable.

It is a subjective term. Non-Moslem is not. In fact it is quite unambiguous. SO when referring to non-Moslems please say non-Moslem. It's even fewer key strokes, so God is already rewarding you.

I-T that's one serious chip on your shoulder. You could feed a small third world nation for a week if you could but find enough salt and vinegar for it.
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-25-2006, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by dishdash
No. I have a problem with it. I am highly offended by it. Please don't use it. I find it completely objectionable.

It is a subjective term. Non-Moslem is not. In fact it is quite unambiguous. SO when referring to non-Moslems please say non-Moslem. It's even fewer key strokes, so God is already rewarding you.

I-T that's one serious chip on your shoulder. You could feed a small third world nation for a week if you could but find enough salt and vinegar for it.
assalaamu alaykum akhi,

why would you have a problem with people calling non-muslims kaffirs or disbelievers? Allah calls them disbelievers in the Quran, do we know better than the creator of the heavens and the earth and all between?

if we dont warn them of their status before Allah, why would they bother changing? its like someone running around with their shirt tails on fire and your telling us its not polite to mention their burning shirt tails! subhanallah, why do muslims not use the name for non-muslims that Allah uses?

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

dishdash
05-25-2006, 07:51 AM
Because people are not here on this forum necessarily to revert - calling them a non-believer is an insult to someone who believes in something, regardless of whether our point of view. They are here with their own beliefs. Good for them. If they are inspired by something they see here to take a step towards Islam, alhamdulilah. If they don't but simply come away with one less stereotype about Moslems, alhamdulilah.

Non-Moslem is more than adequate as a description is it not? Nothing gets lost in the meaning, does it?! And not getting their back up in the first place is adab on our part, right?

Think back to your own days of kuffr. Was the true path revealed to you by someone getting your back up? Or was it witnessing the beauty of the true religion being practised with manners and patience?
Reply

SirZubair
05-25-2006, 09:24 AM
Love your posts DD,keep it up. :)
Reply

babagrr
05-25-2006, 09:35 AM
Assallaamu Alaykum and peace

I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.

Admittedly, it sounds nearly the same if pronounced but, it was used by Christian whites to show their superiority over non-whites.

In reply a black (Or non-white, wich included indians, malaytians, coloureds, etc) had to say: "Ja My Baas"
Yes my boss, owner, master, etc.

E.G.
That kaffer over there is worhtless to me, would you like to buy him for five rand?

****.
Equal to the Jewish term GOI
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-25-2006, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
"A Believer is like a tree. You throw rocks at it, it replies you with fruit."
SubhanAllah... so true.
Everyone rep him for that! =)
:w:
Reply

S_87
05-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by Abdullah4ever
:sl:

For those who believe,

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125d:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a man says to his brother, O Kafir (disbeliever)!' Then surely one of them is such (i.e., a Kifir). "
Sahih BUkhari:Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125m: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, 'If anyone says to his brother, 'O misbeliever! Then surely, one of them such."
:sl:

thats to muslims. anything about saying to kaafirs?


and
what is a kaafir?

a kaafir is one who conceals or denies the truth.

the truth being there is none worthy or worship besides Allah and Muhammed :arabic5: is the final messenger.
the other five pillars
the principles of imaan
etc etc

if you are a non muslim= you have denied the truth= you are a desbeliever/kaafir

theres much more important things to worry about than what to call disbelievers/non muslims/ kaafirs whatever suits you.
Reply

Syed Nizam
05-25-2006, 10:47 AM
Kafr? What's the big deals? The Christians calls us as "Heathens".... so what? Hmm, i remember in the other thread about the "importance" of upholding the "freedom of speech"! What ever happened to that? geezzz.....
Reply

Ghazi
05-25-2006, 10:50 AM
:sl:

If non-muslims don't want to be called Kafirs then they should imbrace islam then that word won't be uttered towards them.
Reply

Syed Nizam
05-25-2006, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by Syed Nizam
Kafr? What's the big deals? The Christians calls us as "Heathens".... so what? Hmm, i remember in the other thread about the "importance" of upholding the "freedom of speech"! What ever happened to that? geezzz.....
the words simply means the unbelievers....so, what's the big deals here?
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-25-2006, 11:09 AM
I personally think we'd just have to address them as non-Muslims. After all our Prophet did once say that whosoever hurts a dhimmi has hurt the Prophet (I'd be happy if someone can provide me with the hadith).

If they get all offensive to us or our religion we can always revert back to start calling them kaffirs again. Just my two cents worth.
Reply

HeiGou
05-25-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by babagrr
I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.

Admittedly, it sounds nearly the same if pronounced but, it was used by Christian whites to show their superiority over non-whites.
And which the Afrikaaners adopted from Muslim traders along the southern African coast. They applied it to the pagans they saw around them - the Black Africans of the interior. And the Whites just adopted the term and used it in a racial sense, not a religious one. But applied it to the same people. With, I suspect, the same degree of contempt.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-25-2006, 11:20 AM
Well that's rude.
Reply

Muezzin
05-25-2006, 11:21 AM
I don't see the reason why people feel the overwhelming urge to label groups of people in terms those groups of people might find offensive. The origin, or even the meaning, of the word is irrelevant if people start taking offence to it. Muslims are supposed to be polite you see.

I agree with Dishdash, just say 'non-Muslim' - it's accurate and it's inoffensive.
Reply

Ghazi
05-25-2006, 11:23 AM
:sl:

Seriously Can someone explain to me how the word Kafir is being rude, now trust me if I were going to be rude to a person I wouldn't call them a Kafir, It has the same effect has someone calling me a muslim.
Reply

Muezzin
05-25-2006, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

Seriously Can someone explain to me how the word Kafir is being rude, now trust me if I were going to be rude to a person I wouldn't call them a Kafir, It has the same effect has someone calling me a muslim.
Thing is, a non-Muslim might not understand what you mean - they might think you're calling them names. So, if the listener takes offence to a term they do not understand, is it the listener's fault for not speaking the language or the speaker's fault for using the term without explaining it?
Reply

Ghazi
05-25-2006, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Thing is, a non-Muslim might not understand what you mean - they might think you're calling them names. So, if the listener takes offence to a term they do not understand, is it the listener's fault for not speaking the language or the speaker's fault for using the term without explaining it?
:sl:

I understand, Like I said before I wouldn't call someone Kafir in Public just to say Hi or something, but I'll refer to them as a whole with this term.
Reply

czgibson
05-25-2006, 06:05 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by babagrr
I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.
I'm not convinced. I think Ra'eesah's etymology from earlier on in the thread is more likely. (See post #3 onwards.)

Peace
Reply

Sabi
05-25-2006, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Love your posts DD,keep it up. :)
Me too DD. However, I object to being called a non muslim (small m) even though I am a Non-Muslim (capital M), because I support the Din and dream of the day I can live under an Islamic state, so even though my religion is Sibghatullah, I and all Sabi`ah Hunafa` consider themselves muslim, even though we have to pay the Jizyah instead of Zakaat, and are no longer allowed to go to Mecca. So I think it is best to call each person by the word that best describes their behaviour. If they support Islam then call them Muslim, if they have a strong faith in God, then call them Mu`min. If they really don't believe in God (but take care to make sure you really understand their language first, because they might believe in God while not worshipping God), then call them Kafir. Allow each individual to categorize themselves through their behaviour and their faith, not their dogma or creed. Isn't that fair?
:brother:
Reply

x Maz x
05-26-2006, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by dishdash
Because people are not here on this forum necessarily to revert - calling them a non-believer is an insult to someone who believes in something, regardless of whether our point of view. They are here with their own beliefs. Good for them. If they are inspired by something they see here to take a step towards Islam, alhamdulilah. If they don't but simply come away with one less stereotype about Moslems, alhamdulilah.

Non-Moslem is more than adequate as a description is it not? Nothing gets lost in the meaning, does it?! And not getting their back up in the first place is adab on our part, right?
Think back to your own days of kuffr. Was the true path revealed to you by someone getting your back up? Or was it witnessing the beauty of the true religion being practised with manners and patience?
MashAllah Akhi, well said *thumbs up*...instead of going on a rant and causing fitnah its best to refrain from it if people take it so offensive and to heart...:)
Peace x
Reply

Daffodil
05-27-2006, 11:39 AM
asalamulaikum

i cant believe there is a thread on this. ppl have got too much time on their hands.

kafir=non muslim.

the word kafir is the arabic for non-muslim, how does that even make a difference. i agree with dawud_uk, we shud use the terms that Allah swt uses. other wise its like saying Allah swt is being offensive to the non muslims in the quran, so are u going to change the wording in the quran to suit the non muslims as to not offend them, i think this whole thread is absolutly pathetic n ridiculous.
Reply

czgibson
05-27-2006, 02:40 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Daffodil
other wise its like saying Allah swt is being offensive to the non muslims in the quran, so are u going to change the wording in the quran to suit the non muslims as to not offend them,
Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-27-2006, 08:15 PM
Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace
n ud think those warnings wud be enough, but no, ppl wud rather learn the hard way.

May Allah swt grant u hidayah (guidence) ameen
Reply

scentsofjannah
05-27-2006, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

gibson ..why don't u read the Qur'an with an open mind? if that was the case as u say why do u think people convert to a religion that calls for the indiscrminate slaughter of nonmuslims..as you believe? makes no utter sense..it is your understanding thats flawed..not Islam
Reply

Abdullah4ever
05-27-2006, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace
:sl:

they aren't threats , the quran is a mercy allah is warning them from the punishment....


:w:
Reply

czgibson
05-27-2006, 10:44 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
gibson ..why don't u read the Qur'an with an open mind?
I've tried many times. As I've said before on numerous threads, I found it dull, repetitive and hectoring.

if that was the case as u say why do u think people convert to a religion that calls for the indiscrminate slaughter of nonmuslims..as you believe?
When did I ever say this? Please don't misrepresent my views. What I said was that Allah makes threats of violence and hellfire towards the unbelievers. Do you deny that the Qur'an says this?

Some people obviously find something valuable in Islam and then convert, and good luck to them. It's not for me though.

makes no utter sense..it is your understanding thats flawed..not Islam
No doubt my understanding of Islam is far from perfect, but I'm learning a lot about it thanks to the knowledgable members of this forum.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-27-2006, 11:41 PM
Hi Callum,
In my opinion you're taking things out of context. God warns people in the Qur'an that rejecting God and rejecting his messengers will only lead them to misery in this life and the Hereafter - but at the same time the Qur'an teaches us the proper way to invite others to the truth:

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord wioth wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

29:46 And do not debate with the people of the earlier scriptures (Jews and Christians) except in the best manner, unless it be with the those bent on oppression and injustice. And say 'We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: our God and your God is one , and it is unto Him that We submit ourselves.


And God mentions that the Prophet's success in preaching was due to God's mercy in enabling him to be gentle in calling others:

3:159 And it was by God's mercy that you [O Prophet] dealt gently with them. And had you been harsh and hard of heart they would have disbanded from around you. So pardon them, then, and pray that they be forgiven. And take counsel with them in all matters of public concern; then, when you have decided upon a course of action, trust in God: for, verily, God loves those who place their trust in Him.

And when we turn to the example of the Prophet to see how he spread the message of the Qur'an he always emphasized gentleness in preaching: "Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good." (Sahih Muslim), and there are numerous other sayings from him as well.

Secondly, I know you have probably read this before, but this is Dr. Lang's comments on the Qur'an's use of warnings to stimulate action:
And those who rejected and gave the lie to Our signs, these are friends of the fire, they dwelled therein (2:39).
Why did it have to say that? I felt a rush of indignation. Just as I was admiring the Qur’an’s intelligent approach, it had to resort to scare tactics. That’s hitting below the belt, I complained. I would have continued on with my reading anyway, if only out of curiosity, without the threats. I have been threatened enough already in my life, and it only produced more resistance and resentment. The Qur’an may be able to frighten others, but I will not be intimidated. I will continue to analyze this Scripture, page-by-page, verse-by-verse, and line-by-line.
I may have been at first offended by this statement, but my brief history with the Scripture had taught me that when a passage agitates me, it often contains an important clue to its viewpoint. As I looked more carefully at these words, I again found the phrasing intriguing. Until this point in the narrative, the Qur’an was relating the allegory of Adam and Eve, of the beginnings of human experience on earth. In this verse, with its abrupt shift to the past tense, it transports the reader far into the future, to the conclusion of the human drama in the hereafter, where it reviews the state of those who rejected and denied God’s signs on earth. It is a brilliant device, for it ends God’s conversation with the first couple on a consoling and compassionate note, and at the same time introduces a warning to the reader in the next verse without interrupting the flow of ideas.
Yet let us say, for the sake of argument, that there really is a God. Does anyone knowingly reject and give the lie to His signs, or do they simply miss them because they are too obscure? Do people consciously reject what they feel may be true? Do they distort in their own minds what they sense is right? Do they stubbornly go against their conscience?
Of course they do, I told myself, and so have I. Many times I have denied, bent and manipulated the truth to indulge some personal vice. Many times I have rationalized patently destructive and self-destructive acts, refusing to admit my wrongs, even to myself? And even though my pursuit of what I felt might be wrong left me empty, ungratified, and restless, I continued to run headlong down the same path. If God did exist, I thought, then I definitely ignored His signs, but that is a big “if.”
The phrase “These are friends of the fire” also struck me. For a friend is one who is dear to us, whose company we seek and whose companionship we desire. Is the Qur’an saying that some people pursue and court the misery they will experience in the next life? When it says that “they dwelled therein,” is it hinting that the hell they experience in the hereafter in some sense began for them in their earthly lives?
Even though a hundred questions were now streaming into my mind and I could not yet see the big picture, I knew I was in for a battle. If these ten verses led me to this much agonizing, then the challenge ahead of me was going to be great. (Taken from this post)
I've tried many times. As I've said before on numerous threads, I found it dull, repetitive and hectoring.
Are you still using the same translation? Maybe switching to one of the two translations I've recommended here might help, of course its entirely your choice.

Peace.
Reply

czgibson
05-28-2006, 12:47 AM
Greetings Ansar,
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
In my opinion you're taking things out of context. God warns people in the Qur'an that rejecting God and rejecting his messengers will only lead them to misery in this life and the Hereafter - but at the same time the Qur'an teaches us the proper way to invite others to the truth:
You say god 'warns', which is a synonym for 'threatens'. The context doesn't actually alter the content of these threats.

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

29:46 And do not debate with the people of the earlier scriptures (Jews and Christians) except in the best manner, unless it be with the those bent on oppression and injustice. And say 'We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: our God and your God is one , and it is unto Him that We submit ourselves.
I think these are excellent pieces of advice; ones that you're clearly following.

Secondly, I know you have probably read this before, but this is Dr. Lang's comments on the Qur'an's use of warnings to stimulate action:
I think I have. I find his thought processes quite odd. I'll give you some examples:

Until this point in the narrative, the Qur’an was relating the allegory of Adam and Eve, of the beginnings of human experience on earth.
Why does he describe the story of Adam and Eve as being an allegory?

Do people consciously reject what they feel may be true?
In intellectual matters people normally reject what they think is wrong.
Are you still using the same translation? Maybe switching to one of the two translations I've recommended here might help, of course its entirely your choice.
I've used online versions as well as the version you recommended to me several months ago, but the message remains the same. Put it this way, while I found Yusuf-Ali's style distracting, it very much seems that it is the content of the text itself that I just don't seem to be able to get on with.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-28-2006, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
You say god 'warns', which is a synonym for 'threatens'
Maybe it is, but I feel the former conveys a far more accurate image.
Why does he describe the story of Adam and Eve as being an allegory?
Well, that's his opinion, but I quoted his comments here to show how he looked at the warning in the passage.
I've used online versions as well as the version you recommended to me several months ago, but the message remains the same. Put it this way, while I found Yusuf-Ali's style distracting, it very much seems that it is the content of the text itself that I just don't seem to be able to get on with.
I thought it might be worthwhile for you to get the F. M. Malik translation, but I see you feel that you aren't getting along with the content itself, and I don't think you will benefit by forcing yourself to go through it.

Peace. :)
Reply

Sabi
05-28-2006, 10:05 AM
I have noticed a few new people coming on this thread who have obviously not read it through. Perhaps it is going on too long and some fo the beautiful responses written so far are being missed.

Kafir refers to not non Muslim but non Mu`min. The question is who is a Mu`min? If the answer is only those people who say La ilahah il allah wa muhammad al rasool ullah with their toungues in front of the appropriate witnesses, then Allah (SWT) save us all. If the answer is something more personal and in the heart and in one's actions (and I don't mean going to a mosque, and wearing a Hijab or a beard, but more important things like love, charity, kindness, gentle speech, forgiveness, and devotion) regardless of confession, then Alhamdulilah. Remember the Qur`aan says that it is possible to be a muslim without being a Mu`min, so vice-versa could also apply Allahualim.

:sl:
:brother:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-31-2006, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace
Offensive? Lol. Dude, He created you. The least you could do is acknolwedge His existence. It isn't a threat, it's a promise.
Reply

Daffodil
05-31-2006, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Offensive? Lol. Dude, He created you. The least you could do is acknolwedge His existence. It isn't a threat, it's a promise.
gud answer sis
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-31-2006, 11:45 AM
I've got a feeling i'm gonna get a warning for it though lol. Did it sound aggressive?:?
:w:
Reply

SirZubair
05-31-2006, 12:31 PM
A warning?

I reckon you should be banned !


(not - you are a bonus to this forum)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-31-2006, 12:38 PM
Lol. Yeah yeah, i bring life to this forum!
Who you gonna argue with and make up with and argue with and make up with? Lol.
:w:
Reply

SirZubair
05-31-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Lol. Yeah yeah, i bring life to this forum!
Who you gonna argue with and make up with and argue with and make up with? Lol.
:w:
Exactly,with you gone,life will be alot less controversial :giggling:

Wa'salaam

(off to sleep)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-31-2006, 12:55 PM
Man I love causing controversy:).
:w:
Reply

czgibson
05-31-2006, 02:26 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Offensive? Lol. Dude, He created you.
That's your belief.

The least you could do is acknolwedge His existence.
I've never seen a reason to do so. To me it seems blindingly obvious that god was created by humans in order to keep other humans in line.

It isn't a threat, it's a promise.
Maybe you don't find promises of violence against you offensive, but many people do.

Peace
Reply

Sabi
06-04-2006, 04:10 PM
Spakoi czgibson, spakoi! Fsyo Narmalna Da?

We worship it, you don't, but we both know its there. If you want to talk about Atheism there is a whole thread dedicated to that question for you there. This thread is about who is and who is not a Kafir. If the cap fits wear it, otherwise leave it for those it do fit.

Chill Dude.
Reply

czgibson
06-04-2006, 05:05 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Sabi
Spakoi czgibson, spakoi! Fsyo Narmalna Da?
Sorry?

We worship it, you don't, but we both know its there.
I'm not sure what you're on about here. You worship Allah, correct? I certainly do not know that Allah is anywhere.

If you want to talk about Atheism there is a whole thread dedicated to that question for you there.
I know. I've posted there lots of times. :)

This thread is about who is and who is not a Kafir.
Is it? I thought it was about the use of the words 'infidel' and 'kaffir', and whether non-Muslims find them offensive.

If the cap fits wear it, otherwise leave it for those it do fit.
I'm definitely a kaffir in the sense that I'm not a Muslim. When someone calls me a kaffir, though, I do object to the implication that I'm somehow 'concealing the truth', because I don't believe that I am.

Chill Dude.
No problem. :)

Peace
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-05-2006, 02:54 PM
Well according to alot of religion I will burn in hell, but that isn't offensive.
Er... maybe it's just me then.
Reply

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