Your desires? or Your actions?

[nimrod]

There is scripture saying that if you lust in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the one who acted on those desires, even though you never followed through on your desires.

To put it in modern terms:

If you call for the death of someone, then you are just as guilty, in your heart, as the one that killed that someone.

Do you agree?

Thanks
Nimrod

[Hawa]

There is a major difference between desiring something and acting upon those desires,
thats what separates us from criminals.

Lusting and having murderous thoughts are part and parcel of being human, what actions we take or dont take after that.. is what defines whether we are bad or not, God being the all Wise does not hold us guilty of crimes we havent put into action..

must find some Quran and hadith sources..

[muslim_friend]

Volumn 008, Book 076, Hadith Number 498. (Bukhari)
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : The Prophet narrating about his Lord I'm and said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account with Him); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (in his account) with Him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account)."

Hope that helps.

[north_malaysian]

Volumn 008, Book 076, Hadith Number 498. (Bukhari)
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : The Prophet narrating about his Lord I'm and said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account with Him); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (in his account) with Him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account)."

Hope that helps.

I've been taught this too. Allah is the most merciful.

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[Looking4Peace]

yea thought are thoughts, i can think about alot of things i would like to do but know are wrong so i do not do them, to be punished for desires that you do not act on would be sick.

[nimrod]

Muslim Friend, “and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it”.

Do the reasons a person didn’t complete the deed have a bearing on the final ruling of guilt or innocence of the offender?

To be a bit plainer spoken, if a person dies, hoping for the death of another (even though they never did the deed-so to speak) are they as guilty as the one who “did the deed”?

Thanks
Nimrod

[north_malaysian]

Muslim Friend, “and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it”.

Do the reasons a person didn’t complete the deed have a bearing on the final ruling of guilt or innocence of the offender?

To be a bit plainer spoken, if a person dies, hoping for the death of another (even though they never did the deed-so to speak) are they as guilty as the one who “did the deed”?

Thanks
Nimrod

non facit reum nisii mens sit rea

[Looking4Peace]

Muslim Friend, “and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it”.

Do the reasons a person didn’t complete the deed have a bearing on the final ruling of guilt or innocence of the offender?

To be a bit plainer spoken, if a person dies, hoping for the death of another (even though they never did the deed-so to speak) are they as guilty as the one who “did the deed”?

Thanks
Nimrod

yea but ughh this is confusing, wishing death on someone and a desire like i want to have a drink (alcohol),are two different things, which is something i might think about and desire sometimes even though i do not drink anymore.:hiding:

[muslim_friend]

Muslim Friend, “and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it”.

Do the reasons a person didn’t complete the deed have a bearing on the final ruling of guilt or innocence of the offender?

To be a bit plainer spoken, if a person dies, hoping for the death of another (even though they never did the deed-so to speak) are they as guilty as the one who “did the deed”?

Thanks
Nimrod

I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to ur last question.. regarding bad intention at the time of death. Perhaps someone else will answer.

There are so many possible situations(like the one you mentioned).I think that a correct statement may or may not be generally acceptable.From what little i can understand is that, according to the hadith Allah rewards the one who intends to do good because, he did not do it.Also Intending to do something and doing something are different.Allah knows best.bad intentions and its opposite actions do not go hand in hand in Islam.we must understand this is hypocrisy.Allah knows best.

[nimrod]

Crystal for Peace, “to be punished for desires that you do not act on would be sick”.

The question then becomes:

Do the reasons for not acting on your desires become the final rule in judging you?

Did you not act because you were fearful of the punishment, yet you wanted to act?

You followed the Law.

Or

Did you not act because you understood that your desire was contrary to God’s desires, and therefore your desires were less than proper and you needed to change your thinking?

You are being judged by grace.

To be a bit plainer spoken, which “saves”, following the letter of the Law, or, the intent of the Law?

Thanks
Nimrod

[syilla]

In Islam... having bad/evil intentions/niah.... is not a sin...
until it turns into actions...(then only it counted as sin)

but if you have good intentions/niah ... Allah will reward you.

[Looking4Peace]

Crystal for Peace, “to be punished for desires that you do not act on would be sick”.

The question then becomes:

Do the reasons for not acting on your desires become the final rule in judging you?

Did you not act because you were fearful of the punishment, yet you wanted to act?

You followed the Law.

Or

Did you not act because you understood that your desire was contrary to God’s desires, and therefore your desires were less than proper and you needed to change your thinking?

You are being judged by grace.

To be a bit plainer spoken, which “saves”, following the letter of the Law, or, the intent of the Law?

Thanks
Nimrod

The answers cannot be asked simply, but did i not act for the following reasons that you stated above? with me its a combination of things including looking back on the actions i used to do and how they did nothing good, only brought negativity and because of this i know why certain things are prohibited in Islam. It makes perfect sense that it is better not to drink etc. This may have not answered you, but its all i can say

[muslim_friend]

Islam=Action+Intention.

Unfortunately, just because of this, a few muslims today are divided into groups. They take either action or intention as a method of following the religion and leave out the rest.

103.001
YUSUFALI: By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
PICKTHAL: By the declining day,
SHAKIR: I swear by the time,

103.002
YUSUFALI: Verily Man is in loss,
PICKTHAL: Lo! man is a state of loss,
SHAKIR: Most surely man is in loss,

103.003
YUSUFALI: Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
PICKTHAL: Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to endurance.
SHAKIR: Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

Hope that helps.

[nimrod]

North Malaysian,” non facit reum nisii mens sit rea”.

English might be helpful.

'Actus non facit reum, nisi mens sit rea '- 'An act does not make a person legally liable unless the mind is legally blameworthy'.

So according to your post the “Law” doesn’t save, it is the “Intent” that saves?
(Assuming you weren’t trying to muddy the waters with a discussion of the insanity defense)

Thanks
Nimrod

[north_malaysian]

North Malaysian,” non facit reum nisii mens sit rea”.

English might be helpful.

'Actus non facit reum, nisi mens sit rea '- 'An act does not make a person legally liable unless the mind is legally blameworthy'.

So according to your post the “Law” doesn’t save, it is the “Intent” that saves?
(Assuming you weren’t trying to muddy the waters with a discussion of the insanity defense)

Thanks
Nimrod

;D ;D Somebody do learn the law, here. Nice to know one.

Actually i just want to say that the person who want other innocent people to die is insane.:p

[syilla]

insanity... does apply in islamic law..

[Looking4Peace]

insanity... does apply in islamic law..

does it really? I hope so because there sure are way too many insane ones roaming this earth for it to be ignored:giggling:

[Abdul Fattah]

There is scripture saying that if you lust in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the one who acted on those desires, even though you never followed through on your desires.

To put it in modern terms:

If you call for the death of someone, then you are just as guilty, in your heart, as the one that killed that someone.

Do you agree?

Thanks
Nimrod

Since others have already pointed out the way Islam stands on this, alow me to take a difrent aproach and counter your question by some other questions.
WHat level of control do you have over your thoughts? You can supress an urge to be acted upon, but can you surpress a thought from being thought up ofr even suggested? Do you, or any person for that matter control both the methods of thought generating as well as enough dicipline to keep certain thoughts from being created in your mind? Aren't we "wired" in a way that certain events stimulate certain thoughts?
And more importantly, would a just God hold us responsible for the things we do not have a saying in? Well obviously we do have some level of control. I guess a lot depends on exactly what you mean by a desire. Is this something recurrent you indulge thinking about, or somthing that rushes into your mind for a split second?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi,
Just glancing through the thread, there are a number of different points that I wanted to comment on:
-about the hadith of intentions, if one intends to do a good deed, one is rewarded. If one does a good deed they are rewarded even more. One is also rewarded if they intend to do a bad deed but restrain themselves and do not do it. So if they think about drinking alcohol but then they repel the thought and abandon the notion, they are rewarded for repelling evil thoughts. However, if one intends to drink alcohol and it just so happens that the bar is closed, they are not rewarded in this case because it was only the circumstances that prevented them from doing it.

-sins are not all the same. While the lustful look is definitely sinful, going even further is, according to common sense, even more sinful. However all are sins. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Prescribed for the son of Adam is his portion of adultery which he must inevitably acquire. The adultery of the eyes is the glance. The adultery of the ears is listening. The adultery of the tongue is speech. The adultery of the hand is the grasp. The adultery of the foot is the step. The heart yearns and desires. The private parts then either act on this or deny it.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

- and as an aside, insanity is recognized in Islam. The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three people: the sleeper until he awakens, the child until he reaches the age of discernment, and the insane until he is able to reason.” [ Sunan al-Tirmidhî (1423) and Sunan Ibn Mâjah (2042)]

To put it in modern terms:

If you call for the death of someone, then you are just as guilty, in your heart, as the one that killed that someone.

There is some ambiguity in the statement. If one has the desire to murder an innocent in their heart, then if they repel such an evil desire they are rewarded as mentioned earlier.

Peace.

[snakelegs]

i would agree with islam on this one. you are human and not a saint so you will have bad thoughts, but it is what you do that matters.

[Woodrow]

In thinking about it. You know we are actually doing what the Christians believe along those lines. Christians believe that when you sin you ask for forgiveness and then promise not to repeat the action.

When we think of a sinfull act, we direct our thoughts to not doing it, in that way we are alreading repenting for the act and by not doing it we are showing that we have promised we will do our best not to repeat the act. In my view, thinking of an act and not doing it, should be considered advanced asking for forgiveness and praying and thanking Allah(swt) for giving us the strength to avoid doing it.

Somehow many Christians are under the impression that we do not ask Allah(swt) to forgive our sins and we simply work them off. Any Muslim can honestly say that the important part of our works is the intent in which it they are done. Christians seek forgiveness with words, we seek forgiveness with actions.

[north_malaysian]

i would agree with islam on this one. you are human and not a saint so you will have bad thoughts, but it is what you do that matters.

But in Islam, God will give you merits even you just have intention to do something good. If you did the good deeds god will multiple the merits. That's why I love God.

[Muslim Knight]

But in Islam, God will give you merits even you just have intention to do something good. If you did the good deeds god will multiple the merits. That's why I love God.

That's why we Muslims love God. Masha Allah!

[snakelegs]

But in Islam, God will give you merits even you just have intention to do something good. If you did the good deeds god will multiple the merits. That's why I love God.

this is what they call a "win win" situation. :)

[iLL_LeaT]

There is scripture saying that if you lust in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the one who acted on those desires, even though you never followed through on your desires.

To put it in modern terms:

If you call for the death of someone, then you are just as guilty, in your heart, as the one that killed that someone.

Do you agree?

Thanks
Nimrod

This is how I look at it

There are two types of “sinful” thoughts.

One – The type that pops into you head for just a second but you never think twice about it. Such as when someone cuts you off when driving, and you think something like, “Oh!!! You should die.”

Two – The type that lingers and causes hate and anger to grow. <= bad thinking. This type of thought has possible intention of carrying out some sort of unspeakable thing.

There is a difference between thinking something and having possible intent to do something. And even if you don’t carry out any plans, the anger and hate is still there. Type two should require some sort repenting if you wish to not have that hate and anger.

[cleo]

You mean, because I am guilty of hating the evil ones that are running the world, and wish they would go to Hell, to stop killing, and torturing, and I admit it. I don't intend to put them where they should go, I just wish they would be gone from this world. Surely, I can't love them, for they are evil. It is my sin then for saying this. I will ask forgiveness.

[iLL_LeaT]

No good comes from hate

[Woodrow]

You mean, because I am guilty of hating the evil ones that are running the world, and wish they would go to Hell, to stop killing, and torturing, and I admit it. I don't intend to put them where they should go, I just wish they would be gone from this world. Surely, I can't love them, for they are evil. It is my sin then for saying this. I will ask forgiveness.

Cleo, you are much nicer then you are giving yourself credit for. Look closely at what you are saying. You are saying you are not thinking of killing them. You are saying you wish they would go to Hell, yet in the tone of your words, it sounds more like you wish Allah(swt) will handle the matter. Your statement of "Surely, I can't love them, for they are evil" to me it sounds like you are asking Allah, to show you how you can love them, but despise the actions. The last 2 sentences only you know if they are true. Yet, are they not true for all of us? I do not know of any living creature that is not full of sin and in need of forgiveness and mercy.

[Joe98]

God will give you merits ……..

But that is in conflict with another belief. And that is on Judgement day you will be judged and you cannot guess what the judgement will be. In other words merits don’t count.

That's why I love God.

There is no god so you ought to direct your good works towards your family. Ultimately your family will be better off and everyone around you will be better off too.

If your parents brought you up correctly you don’t need a book to understand the rules of life.

[Trumble]

There is scripture saying that if you lust in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the one who acted on those desires, even though you never followed through on your desires.

In Buddhist terms they would be the the same - it is the intention, and the associated attachments, that are important. That said, you need to distinguish precisely what you are talking about in terms of being the 'same'. We may well all be guilty of having "murderous thoughts", but do they REALLY involve thoughts of murder? Such thoughts are still bad, and should be eliminated, but they are not the 'same' as murder, or a real intention to murder.

If there is a genuine desire to kill, but the deed is not carried out, the karmic question would be "why?". If the person concerned was merely afraid of the police and jail, there would be no karmic difference at all. If, however, such bad thoughts were recognised, and conciously driven away, there would be a huge difference.

[Abdul Fattah]

Two – The type that lingers and causes hate and anger to grow. <= bad thinking. This type of thought has possible intention of carrying out some sort of unspeakable thing.

There is a difference between thinking something and having possible intent to do something. And even if you don’t carry out any plans, the anger and hate is still there. Type two should require some sort repenting if you wish to not have that hate and anger.

I would say the problem here isn't really thinking about it, but indulging it. You Like the thoughts, you choose to like to think about it. It's braking the first barier towards sin. And orchestrating the path towards sin, is a sin on its own.

[Mawaddah]

As we see from this Hadeeth there :
Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : The Prophet narrating about his Lord and said, "Allah ordered that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed ; and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him with Him its reward from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account)."

We see that if a person leaves off a bad deed then he gets a good deed written in place of that bad deed. But what if that person did not leave off that bad deed sincerely? Does that person still gets reward for not doing this bad deed?
In Islaam, if a person leaves of his bad deed :

1. Because he realizes that what he is intended is haram and against Islam, then Here is where he gets the good deed in place of that bad deed Because he left off this thing because of Allah.

2. If he leaves it off Because lets say He forgot, Then in this case there is neither good deed nor bad deed for him.

3. If he leaves it off because the situation deemed unsignificant for him, so he left it off because of some inconvenience of matters or the like, Or he made effort and strived in the way of his bad deed, but was not able to do it, but if he gets a next chance he will still go ahead and do it, then in THIS case, the person still gets Bad deed because he strived towards that objective and the only reason he didn't do it was because of the circumstances. So he gets the bad deed even if he didn't actually get to do it.

Wallahu A'lam

[Woodrow]

I would say the problem here isn't really thinking about it, but indulging it. You Like the thoughts, you choose to like to think about it. It's braking the first barier towards sin. And orchestrating the path towards sin, is a sin on its own.

I would agree with that. Engaging in a sinfull thought for the sake of the thought seems like it would be a voluntary action, and therefore the person is willfully commiting an act. True the act is not what the person is thinking. But, there is a voluntary act of thinking at that point. The act of thinking is an action in that point, In my opinion Astaghfirullah

[Mawaddah]

^ True say, which is why it's not allowed for Muslims to fantasize about sinful acts because if done frequently, it might actually fuel the doers mind to go ahead and do this sinful action.

[Umar001]

Yep Im sure glad a couple of people evened up the intention part, because of one of the hadeeth which talks about two muslims who fight who have the intention to kill each other, the killer will be punished and so will the one that had the intention to kill him, and when asked why, it was said.... lol read it cos I dont wanna make a mistake on it. If anyone finds that hadeeth please give me its reference.

Anyhow, I have always wondered, according to my understanding of Christianity, if you hate someone it is just as if you have killed them, so if we had Christian run laws and courts (I mean proper bible following), how many people would be in prison by now?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

“Allaah has forgiven for my ummah that which is whispered to them [i.e. from satan - satanic whispers] and which crosses their minds, so long as they do not act upon it or speak of it.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6664; Muslim, 127)

:wasalamex

[Abdul Fattah]

Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

“Allaah has forgiven for my ummah that which is whispered to them [i.e. from satan - satanic whispers] and which crosses their minds, so long as they do not act upon it or speak of it.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6664; Muslim, 127)

MAshallah I never heard that one before :wub:

[Al-Mu'min]

Peace.

But that is in conflict with another belief. And that is on Judgement day you will be judged and you cannot guess what the judgement will be. In other words merits don’t count.

Ofcourse merits count. Do you think a murderer and a preacher will have the same faith?

There is no god so you ought to direct your good works towards your family. Ultimately your family will be better off and everyone around you will be better off too.

In Islam directing your good works toward your family is a form of worshipping Allah. Being good and taking care of your parents is second only to worshipping Allah alone. A person gets a higher reward from Allah by giving to his brother than to giving to a stranger in Islam. Always having ties with your next of kin was highly stressed by the Prophet pbuh. So by directing your good works toward your family, you are also worshiping Allah by obeying his commands. So as you say... your family, as well as YOU are better off.

If your parents brought you up correctly you don’t need a book to understand the rules of life.

What happens to those people who weren't brought up correctly?? Where do they get the info needed to "understand the rules of life"? Are they doomed?

No matter who you are, you will always need giudance. And who better to recieve guidance from but the One ho created us in the first place?

Peace out.