Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

[Umar001]

I just think that if alot of the people who don't follow hadeeth applied the same reasoning for not following hadeeth to the Qu'ran they would not follow alot of verses from the Qu'ran either.

[Umar001]

To keep somewhat on topic here's something nice..

The Deviation of those who are satisfied with The Qur'an to the exclusion of Hadeeth

Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."(59:7)

In connection with this verse, I am marveled by what is corroborated by Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) that is, a woman came to him and told him: "You who says: May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat [a woman who plucks hers or others eye-brows - to be a thin line - to seek beauty. Such an act is fobidden. It is a mean to change the form of Allah's creation] and Al-Motanamisat [a woman who asks others to do it for her] and those who tatoo." He said: "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah (Al-Qur'an) from its beginning to its end, I did not find what you have said." He told her: "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messanger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." She said: "Certainly". He said: "I have heard the Messanger of Allah (salaallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) says: "May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat." (Bukhari & Muslim)

Extract from a short Article by Al Albani

Source

[- Qatada -]

Hi Gary.


I don't think we're allowed to kill any apostate, or anything like that anyway. Because i think we need an islamic state to apply them laws and we don't have that right now. Allaah Almighty knows best.


Anyway, i'm going to have to delete the offtopic posts guys insha'Allaah. :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ok...i didnt like them anyway lol...

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[scentsofjannah]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Hope all is well sister :) and thank you for you kind words,

I will ask you, do you know the sciences of classification of Hadeeth?

and also, how do you know the Qu'ran has been preserved?

And do you not think that some hadeeth need to be explained? like some ayat that seem contradictiory to someone with small knowledge?

:w: brother

the science of hadeeth..is a human science..and thus not infallible..we have to be very careful regarding hadeeths..lets not accept them blindly

the Qur'an is preserved because Allah himself says so in the Qur'an :)

many hadeeths contradict each other..hadeeth literature generally speaking are important if we want to know more about how the early muslims lived..including Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him..but always..always and i can't stress enough..use the Qur'an as your Criterion brother..since thats what Allah called it..Al Furqan..the Criterion..between whats right and wrong..and don't just accept what some scholars say..make use of your own God given faculities of analysing, reasoning etc..use your intellect..

:w:

[Umar001]

:w: brother

the science of hadeeth..is a human science..and thus not infallible..we have to be very careful regarding hadeeths..lets not accept them blindly

I hope noone just follows a hadeeth blindly.

the Qur'an is preserved because Allah himself says so in the Qur'an :)

How do you know someone didn't put that in there? How do you know it has no been changed? that is like a Christian says the Bible hasnt been changed because the Bible says so.

many hadeeths contradict each other..

This is a condition of accepting a hadeeth, for example, a condition for accepting a hadeeth is that it must not contradict something stronger than it.

hadeeth literature generally speaking are important if we want to know more about how the early muslims lived..including Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him..but always..always and i can't stress enough..use the Qur'an as your Criterion brother..since thats what Allah called it..Al Furqan..the Criterion..between whats right and wrong..and don't just accept what some scholars say..make use of your own God given faculities of analysing, reasoning etc..use your intellect..

:w:

The Qu'ran is the criteria, we know, the Qu'ran also says that Muhammad was to explain things, so why would G-d send Muhammad to explain things as a duty and then not preserve that explanation?

Also, it is logical and through reasoning and use of intelect that we refer to scholars! Because a scholar is almost always going to have more knowledge he is able to put forward a better answer. For example, if someone has 10 pieces to a 100 piece puzzle and someone else has 70 pieces, it is only logical that you ask the one with 70 piece, what is the picture in the puzzle, because that person is more likely to be able to give you an answer from a wider range of understanding, does that mean he is always going to be right? Nope, so we accept answers with reasons given for tha answer.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
This thread is not for a discussion on apostasy; the ruling on apostasy has been explained here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
off-topic posts will be removed and warnings issued.

Also, members are encouraged to read the thread rather than repeating claims that were debunked at least a dozen times earlier.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

I hope noone just follows a hadeeth blindly.



How do you know someone didn't put that in there? How do you know it has no been changed? that is like a Christian says the Bible hasnt been changed because the Bible says so.

:sl: :)

The Qur'an doesnt contradict itself..whats more Allah throws in a challenge too..'that if it was from other than God it would have many discrepancies' is there any such challenge in the hadeeth literature..is not scholars who seperate the wheat from the chalf?..The one who revealed the Qur'an is Allah subhanahu wata'ala..it is He who is addressing us directly in the Qur'an and He has promised us that he will protect it from corruption..1400 years and its still the same pure text Allahu Akbar!

Now are you saying the pure unadulterated Qur'an is equal to the hadeeth books? in that case we have more than 1 perfect book..more than 1 holy book..astaghfirrulah..even the arabic of the Qur'an is much superior to the hadeeths..they cannot be compared at all.

This is a condition of accepting a hadeeth, for example, a condition for accepting a hadeeth is that it must not contradict something stronger than it.The Qu'ran is the criteria, we know, the Qu'ran also says that Muhammad was to explain things, so why would G-d send Muhammad to explain things as a duty and then not preserve that explanation?

brother Sahih Bukhari is considered by many to be the most authentic collection of hadeeths..yet even within it you find hadeeths that contradict each other! I know this because i'vce seen it..its not something unusual..since its a purely human document and humans err

the explanation/eloboration of the deen of Allah is preserved..donot confuse hadeeth with Sunnah it isnt the same thing ..Imam Bukhari wrote his book 200 years after the demise of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..do you think before that time people didnt know how to pray..pay zakat etc?..these traditions live on in the Ummah Alhamdullilah..I am not a hadeeth rejector donot confuse me for one but then I'm against many hadeeths that seem to contradict the Qur'anic verses..and also many hadeeths that seem extremely unnecessarily and place hardships on people...e.g look to the bottom of my post.

Also, it is logical and through reasoning and use of intelect that we refer to scholars! Because a scholar is almost always going to have more knowledge he is able to put forward a better answer. For example, if someone has 10 pieces to a 100 piece puzzle and someone else has 70 pieces, it is only logical that you ask the one with 70 piece, what is the picture in the puzzle, because that person is more likely to be able to give you an answer from a wider range of understanding, does that mean he is always going to be right? Nope, so we accept answers with reasons given for tha answer.

Brother I am not against learned people..in deed Allah tells us that if we donot know a thing to ask the people who have knowledge..this is a command from Allah to be found in the Qur'an..but then again go to any muslim site or even an Islamic channel..and see for yourself what sort of knowledge muslims are recieving..

Dogs are impure and no angels will grace your home if you have a dog, your salaat will not be accepted if you pray with nail varnish (a new muslim sister was told this in the masjid..you can imagine how she felt..very offended)

Shaping of the eyebrows is haraam, muslim men should wear the thawb and any clothing they wear must be above the ankles, they must have a fist length beard otherwise they are not considered to be 'good muslims',

Your prayer cannot be accepted if you don't cut your nails for 40 days .I remember fretting for days when i had forgotten to cut my nails..thinking my salaah wouldnt be accepted ..since then i have become more knowledgable..now i don't bother to worry since Allah doesnt care about such things but I do cut my nails for cleanliness reasons since our religion encourages us to be clean.

You must not use any soap, mouthwash shampoo which has alcohol , images are haraam , guitars, pianos are haraam, your hands have be on your chest for your salaah to be 'correct..hands by the side like those following Maliki and Ja'fari schools of thoughts is wrong etc etc..the list goes on..all this is found in the hadeeth books.


I hope you get my point..again i apologise if i have offended any body..i am not a hadeeth rejector..there is only 1 Holy book the perfect Qur'an..the Criterion and i only accept hadeeths if they don't contradict with any Qur'anic verses keeping in mind that the only 100% fool proof way to establish the authenticity of many hadeeths is to actually go back in time which is an impossibility.


just 1 last thing..if everything the Prophet did and said is to be considered divinely inspired..then doesnt that mean that Prophet Muhammed pbuh is 100% perfect and cannot make errors of judgement, proof of which is in the Qur'an itself when Prophet Muhammed pbuh forbade honey to himself and then Allah told him it was wrong of him to do so? and that it is only Allah who makes things haraam and halaal? Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?


:w::)

[InToTheRain]

:sl: :)

brother Sahih Bukhari is considered by many to be the most authentic collection of hadeeths..yet even within it you find hadeeths that contradict each other! I know this because i'vce seen it..its not something unusual..since its a purely human document and humans err

:sl: :)

Ukhti can you please show all the contradictory hadiths in Bukhari Insha'Allah.

:
Brother I am not against learned people..in deed Allah tells us that if we donot know a thing to ask the people who have knowledge..this is a command from Allah to be found in the Qur'an..but then again go to any muslim site or even an Islamic channel..and see for yourself what sort of knowledge muslims are recieving..

Dogs are impure and no angels will grace your home if you have a dog, your salaat will not be accepted if you pray with nail varnish (a new muslim sister was told this in the masjid..you can imagine how she felt..very offended)

Shaping of the eyebrows is haraam, muslim men should wear the thawb and any clothing they wear must be above the ankles, they must have a fist length beard otherwise they are not considered to be 'good muslims',

Your prayer cannot be accepted if you don't cut your nails for 40 days .I remember fretting for days when i had forgotten to cut my nails..thinking my salaah wouldnt be accepted ..since then i have become more knowledgable..now i don't bother to worry since Allah doesnt care about such things but I do cut my nails for cleanliness reasons since our religion encourages us to be clean.

You must not use any soap, mouthwash shampoo which has alcohol , images are haraam , guitars, pianos are haraam, your hands have be on your chest for your salaah to be 'correct..hands by the side like those following Maliki and Ja'fari schools of thoughts is wrong etc etc..the list goes on..all this is found in the hadeeth books.

So your basis for rejecting what other muslim or scholars say is right is also because it is not in accordance with what you feel is right or what makes you feel good? hmmm...

:
..the Criterion and i only accept hadeeths if they don't contradict with any Qur'anic verses keeping in mind that the only 100% fool proof way to establish the authenticity of many hadeeths is to actually go back in time which is an impossibility.

Insha'Allah show hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim that contradict the Qur'an, I think you owe it to the Brothers and Sisters in this forum because from what you are saying all the scholars are misguided as they constantly use hadiths ALONG WITH THE QUR'AN for understanding.

:
just 1 last thing..if everything the Prophet did and said is to be considered divinely inspired..then doesnt that mean that Prophet Muhammed pbuh is 100% perfect and cannot make errors of judgement, proof of which is in the Qur'an itself when Prophet Muhammed pbuh forbade honey to himself and then Allah told him it was wrong of him to do so? and that it is only Allah who makes things haraam and halaal? Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?

:w::)

So Did mohammad(SAW) also make a mistake when reciting the Qur'an? Because thats how the Qur'an was conveyed through his recitations, using your reasoning what other conclusion would one reach?

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
The same ignorant myths keep coming up because people won't be bothered to actually read through the thread and see the refutations. There's no need to repeat ourselves continously to those who are not interested in listening. I'll take one example:

Imam Bukhari wrote his book 200 years after the demise of Prophet Muhammed pbuh

From :
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Myth #1 Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

This misconception is based on the hadeeth mentioned in Saheeh Muslim (Second authenthic Hadeeth collection):

It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that. (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)

Those who use this hadeeth and argue that no ahadeeth were written are ignorant of the historical temporary prohibition of this statement. The temporary prohibition was meant as a precautionary step to ensure the correctness of the word of Allaah as distinguished from the words of the Prophet himself, as both came from the lips of the Prophet. This is one view and several other views are mentioned in the commentary on Saheeh Muslim by Imaam Al-Nawawi (May Allaah have mercy on him)


Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:

Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Alee (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth.

The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.

This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”
There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:

I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)

Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)

Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:

I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:

Preserve Knowledge

Abdullaah then asked,

how should it be preserved?

The Prophet replied,

by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)

In another report, he says,

I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’

The Prophet replied,

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)

He also says:

I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)

After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said:

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

These narrations attest that ahadeeth were written during the era of the Prophet.

I will list here the prominent compilations written in the first and second century, some written by the sahabas (the Prophet’s companions), their students (taabi’een), and the students of the taabi’een (tabaa'at-taabi'een).

Some of the compilations during the era of the Prophet:

The Scripts of Abu Hurairah

Hasan ibn Amr reports that once:

Abu Hurairah took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahadeeth of the Prophet. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Baari)

The Script of Abdullaahi ibn Amr

Mujahid, his student, said

I went to Abdullaah ibn Amr and took in hand a script placed beneath his cushion. He stopped me. I said, You never save anything from me. He replied:

This is the Saadiqah (the Script of Truth). It is what I heard from the Prophet. No other narrator intervenes between him and myself. If this script, the Book of Allaah, and wahaz (his agricultural land) are secured for me, I would never care about the rest of the world. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm)

The Script of Anas

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of his students, says:

When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)

The Script of Alee

Alee said:

I have not written anything from the Prophet except the Qur’aan and what is contained in this script. (Saheeh Bukhaaree- Book of Jihaad)

Ibn Sa'd reports that Alee stood in the mosque and delivered a lecture then he asked the people:

Who will purchase ‘knowledge’ for one dirham only?

meaning, who wants to learn ahadeeth should buy writing paper for one dirham and come to him for dictation.

It is reported that Haarith al-A’war bought some paper and came to him:

So, Alee wrote for him a lot of knowledge. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Scripts of Jaabir

Qataadah, one of Jaabir’s students, says,

I remember the script of Jaabir more than I remember Surah al-Baqarah (Qur’aan). (Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb)

Scripts of Ibn Abbaas

Musa ibn Uqbah says:

Kuraib left with us a camel load of Ibn Abbaas’s books. When Alee ibn Abdullaah ibn Abbaas would need any book from them, he wrote to Kuraib, ‘Send to me such and such books.’ He would then transcribe the book and send to him one of the two copies. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

The pupils of Ibn Abbaas would copy these scripts and read them over to him to confirm the correctness of the copies. (Tirmidhi)

Sometimes Ibn Abbaas would narrate the ahadeeth to his pupils while they would record them. (Daarimi)

The compilations of the First Century:

1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma’dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih,
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn ‘Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn Abdullaah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa’d (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwaab of Sha’bi,
12. Books of Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-Aliyah
14. Book of Sa’id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of Umar ibn ‘Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

The compilations of the second century (note that only the prominent ones are listed due length) :

1. Book of Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
2. Muwatta of Maalik ibn Anas (93-179)
3. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi’b (80-158)
4. Maghaazi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
5. Musnad of Rabi’ ibn Sabih (d. 160)
6. Book of Sa’id ibn Abi ‘Arubah (d. 156)
7. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
8. Jami’ Sufyan ath-Thauri (97-161)
9. Jami’ Ma’mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
10. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Awzaa’I (88-157)
11. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak (118-181)
12. Book of Hushaim ibn Bashir (104-183)
13. Book of Jarir ibn ‘Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
14. Book of Abdullaah ibn Wahb (125-197)
15. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
16. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
17. Tafsîr of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
18. Book of Musa ibn ‘Uqbah (d. 141)
19. Book of Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
20. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
21. Book of Yahya ibn Sa’id Ansari (d. 143)
22. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
23. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
24. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
25. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Mas’udi (d. 160)
26. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
27. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
28. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
29. Al-Gharaaib by Shu’bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
30. Books of Abdul-Aziz ibn ‘Abdullaah al-Majishun (d. 164)
31. Books of Abdullaah ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
32. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
33. Books of Abdullaah ibn Lahi’ah (d. 147)
34. Jami’ Sufyan ibn ‘Uyainah (d. 198)
35. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah (d. 150)
36. Maghaazi of Mu’tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
37. Musannaf of Waki’ ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
38. Musannaf of Abdur-Razzaaq ibn Hammam (136-221)
39. Musnad of Zaid ibn Alee (76-122)
40. Books of Imaam Shaafi’i (150-204)

The following are available today in printed form:

1. Al-Muwatta by Imaam Maalik.
2. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah.
3. Musannaf by ‘Abdur-Razzaaq. This book has been published in eleven big volumes.
4. As-Seerah by Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
5. Kitaab az-Zuhd by ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
6. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Waki’ ibn Jarraah (3 volumes).
7. Al-Musnad by Zaid ibn Alee (76-122).
8. Sunan of Imaam Shaafi’i.
9. Musnad of Shaafi’i.
10. Siyar of Awzaa’i (88-157).
11. Musnad of ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
12. Musnad of Abu Daawood Tayalisi (d. 204).
13. Ar-Radd ‘ala Siyaril-Awzaa’i by Imaam Abu Yoosuf.
14. Al-Hujjah ‘ala Ahlil-Madeenah by Imaam Muhammad ibn Hasan Shaibaani.
15. Kitaabul-Umm by Imaam Shaafi’i.
16. Al-Maghaazi by Waqidi (130-206) (4 volumes).

[Rou]

A very well written and informative post i must say.

jazak allah for that brother..

i have a question on the hadeeth as i do follow certain hadeeth but am worried for our religon when it comes to some as they seem to clash at times i had a question as i stated...

i understand that u state that it was said by our prophet pbuh to not write things down and at a later date it was stated that things may be written down...now i can see the sense in that as perhaps this was as you said not to mix up the wordings of allah however what im intrested in is are there any dates to show which hadeeth was said first and which after? as so to work out how we can come to the conclusion that this was indeed the case as in what proof do we have that after the quran the prophet pbuh stated that we can write things down?

i have seen the hadith however i mean is there any type of dating or proof that they were stated after the quran was finished?

how did we come to the conclusion that the prophet pbuh had finished the quran before he stated that comment about writing things down now is allowed?

for i have seen even a hadeeth that states clearly that write nothing but the quran yet i have seen no clear hadeeth on the fact that hadeeth or books of these sort should b kept?

as in the prophet pbuh states quite clearly in the hadeeth that we may reiterate his ways from memory but he never stated clearly that we should write other books or take advice from third parties...

im not intrested in what this person or that person beleives im intrested in the truth..

:w:

[Mohsin]

just 1 last thing..if everything the Prophet did and said is to be considered divinely inspired..then doesnt that mean that Prophet Muhammed pbuh is 100% perfect and cannot make errors of judgement, proof of which is in the Qur'an itself when Prophet Muhammed pbuh forbade honey to himself and then Allah told him it was wrong of him to do so? and that it is only Allah who makes things haraam and halaal? Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?

Salam. i have heard this is a fabricated hadith, Allah Knows Best. Maybe somebody else can shed more light on this hadith

[Rou]

just 1 last thing..if everything the Prophet did and said is to be considered divinely inspired..then doesnt that mean that Prophet Muhammed pbuh is 100% perfect and cannot make errors of judgement, proof of which is in the Qur'an itself when Prophet Muhammed pbuh forbade honey to himself and then Allah told him it was wrong of him to do so? and that it is only Allah who makes things haraam and halaal? Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?

hmm an intresting question are these hadith fact!? if so then indeed they raise a question on the hadeeth...

as for wether he could have made a mistake on the quran the quran was given by allah and what is within it was stated to the prophet pbuh from allah and the prophet pbuh would adhere to all that allah had said but if these hadeeth are correct then its is clear that we should follow only the quran that was gifted from allah to the mouth of our prophet pbuh.

[Rou]

Salam. i have heard this is a fabricated hadith, Allah Knows Best. Maybe somebody else can shed more light on this hadith

I found the hadeeth in refrence here it seems to exist not a fake but allah knows best -

Book 009, Number 3496:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('A'isha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): 'Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('A'isha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to:" And when the Holy Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.

As for the prophet being 100% perfect...there was never a man like him nor will there be the likes of him again.

he is as close to perfect as you can get but no man has been perfect...and never will be...we can but try to be even but a shadow of our great prophet pbuh.

[Mohsin]

Brother Rou i was talking about the following hadith, i didnt quote properly sorry, my fault

Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?

I heard it is fabricated as the brother who claimed this argued the prophet could not give bad advice, as his speech was an indirect form of revelation

[Rou]

Brother Rou i was talking about the following hadith, i didnt quote properly sorry, my fault



I heard it is fabricated as the brother who claimed this argued the prophet could not give bad advice, as his speech was an indirect form of revelation

hmmm...i did search for such a hadeeth through out many haddets but unfortunatly have found nothing that relates to this..anyone else have any idea where this has arisen from? or any answer to my earlier post about the hadeeths being dated ?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Regarding the narrations on the prohibition of writing other than the Qur'an, then Br. Kadafi's article has a large quotation from Imam An-Nawawi which explains that this was an early stage command when the number of followers of Islam as still few, but later once Islam has expanded and there were many many knowledgeable companions, then the risk of mixing things up was no longer there. It doesn't necessarily mean that the revelation of the entire Qur'an was already complete at that point, just that the risks were gone. An-Nawawi also cites two other views and that is that the prohibition was for writing both on the same page, or that the prohibition was for writing the hadith during those moments when Qur'an was being revealed. But the main view is said to be the most likely.

Regarding the infallibility of the prophets. Yes, Prophets made minor mistakes relating to their human judgement, but NOT any mistakes in their transmission of the religion, their religious verdicts or commitment to Allah swt.
:w:

[Protected_Diamond]

I know it's totally crazy and stupid! I know someone who totally rejects believing in hadiths too...the worlds gone mad!

[Rou]

:sl:
Regarding the narrations on the prohibition of writing other than the Qur'an, then Br. Kadafi's article has a large quotation from Imam An-Nawawi which explains that this was an early stage command when the number of followers of Islam as still few, but later once Islam has expanded and there were many many knowledgeable companions, then the risk of mixing things up was no longer there. It doesn't necessarily mean that the revelation of the entire Qur'an was already complete at that point, just that the risks were gone. An-Nawawi also cites two other views and that is that the prohibition was for writing both on the same page, or that the prohibition was for writing the hadith during those moments when Qur'an was being revealed. But the main view is said to be the most likely.

Regarding the infallibility of the prophets. Yes, Prophets made minor mistakes relating to their human judgement, but NOT any mistakes in their transmission of the religion, their religious verdicts or commitment to Allah swt.
:w:

Indeed i agree that the prophet pbuh had no mistake in transmitting the quran to his followers or narrating it, and understand that thats why the hadith at that time may have been stated not to be written but i am asking if the hadith are dated is that why we know that there was a diffrence in time or was there a mention of the time span in which these statments were made? so that one can judge the authenticty of that particular statment.

[Rou]

I know it's totally crazy and stupid! I know someone who totally rejects believing in hadiths too...the worlds gone mad!

the worlds gone mad beacuse we question the hadith??? there are many hadith that have been stated as untrue heance why certain ones are beleived in example bukhari etc but why would it seem strange that people question it or dont beleive?

the fact that certain ones were proven to be untrue shows that we must be careful though bikhari has been shown that it has truth it does not mean that translaters or mistakes were not made we must becareful not to follow blindly that would but only insult our religon...not safe gaurd it...

if hadith are indeed exact then why are majority of muslims not wearing henna in there hair?

its just confusing heance the questions to get to the bottom of it..

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum,

The Qur'an doesnt contradict itself..whats more Allah throws in a challenge too..'that if it was from other than God it would have many discrepancies' is there any such challenge in the hadeeth literature..is not scholars who seperate the wheat from the chalf?..The one who revealed the Qur'an is Allah subhanahu wata'ala..it is He who is addressing us directly in the Qur'an and He has promised us that he will protect it from corruption..1400 years and its still the same pure text Allahu Akbar!

You still don't have seem to have answered my question sister, all you have said is that the Qu'ran does not contradict itself and that Allah put a challange in the Qu'ran, and that the text is still pure. Let me reput my question to you, please read it carefully:

"How do you know someone didn't put that in there? How do you know it has no been changed? that is like a Christian says the Bible hasnt been changed because the Bible says so."

All you have said, is that Allah has put a challange in the Qu'ran and so on, look this is as futile an explanation as the Christians, their Bible says "God's words will never perish' and "God is not the author of confusion" Let me ask you, do you believe because of what the bible says about itself that it is still the same?

So please if yuo are going to reply answer the question.

Now are you saying the pure unadulterated Qur'an is equal to the hadeeth books? in that case we have more than 1 perfect book..more than 1 holy book..astaghfirrulah..even the arabic of the Qur'an is much superior to the hadeeths..they cannot be compared at all.

I don't believe that the Qu'ran is the same, who said that, please read carefully, think about things, what have I been asking you about? The preservation through humans, in that way it is the same, you still havent answerd on how the Qu'ran has been preserved, tell me, how? How has it physically been preserved?

brother Sahih Bukhari is considered by many to be the most authentic collection of hadeeths..yet even within it you find hadeeths that contradict each other! I know this because i'vce seen it..its not something unusual..since its a purely human document and humans err

See this is where, you amaze me, because, sister, there are some people that say the Qu'ran has contradiction, why do they say this? Because they read some places, and they see that something "seems" to be contradictory, so based on their little knowledge of Qu'ran they say "it's a contradiction" but then when you show them, no look at this surah it explains this and that then they realise it is not a contradiction, similarly, with hadeeth, people like yourself, see one hadeeth then see anther and say "look itsa contradiction" because of the limited knowledge of hadeeth, but then if a scholar of hadeeth was to sit with you, he'd explain it to you becuse he has a wider knowledge of hadeeth, just as one ayah can explain another one hadeeth can explain another.

the explanation/eloboration of the deen of Allah is preserved..donot confuse hadeeth with Sunnah it isnt the same thing ..Imam Bukhari wrote his book 200 years after the demise of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..do you think before that time people didnt know how to pray..pay zakat etc?..these traditions live on in the Ummah Alhamdullilah..I am not a hadeeth rejector donot confuse me for one but then I'm against many hadeeths that seem to contradict the Qur'anic verses..and also many hadeeths that seem extremely unnecessarily and place hardships on people...e.g look to the bottom of my post.

Sister, you have proven your lack of understanding in the works of Hadeeth, Imam Bukhari didn't write hadeeth! He compiled them, as you have said, the Sunnah has been preserved, all Imam Bukhari did, was take from the people the Sunnah and then put it into a book, compilation! Did he take everything people told him? No, he left some out because some of it was lies, or mistakes .

Brother I am not against learned people..in deed Allah tells us that if we donot know a thing to ask the people who have knowledge..this is a command from Allah to be found in the Qur'an..but then again go to any muslim site or even an Islamic channel..and see for yourself what sort of knowledge muslims are recieving..

Dogs are impure and no angels will grace your home if you have a dog, your salaat will not be accepted if you pray with nail varnish (a new muslim sister was told this in the masjid..you can imagine how she felt..very offended)

Shaping of the eyebrows is haraam, muslim men should wear the thawb and any clothing they wear must be above the ankles, they must have a fist length beard otherwise they are not considered to be 'good muslims',

Your prayer cannot be accepted if you don't cut your nails for 40 days .I remember fretting for days when i had forgotten to cut my nails..thinking my salaah wouldnt be accepted ..since then i have become more knowledgable..now i don't bother to worry since Allah doesnt care about such things but I do cut my nails for cleanliness reasons since our religion encourages us to be clean.

You must not use any soap, mouthwash shampoo which has alcohol , images are haraam , guitars, pianos are haraam, your hands have be on your chest for your salaah to be 'correct..hands by the side like those following Maliki and Ja'fari schools of thoughts is wrong etc etc..the list goes on..all this is found in the hadeeth books.

I would love, I would have loved to see someone genuinly use this type of logic, for the Qu'ran. This is what people do, 'oh this part sounds wrong' lets leave it, this sounds wrong to, how can this be or this is not true. For example you say:

Dogs are impure, or that angels wont enter the house or something like that, what is harder to believe, that Dogs are impure or that ants spoke to a man?

I think you should use this logic with the Qu'ran, and any verse which anyone doesn't agree with should be thrown away, dont you agree? I mean you say, Your prayer cannot be accepted if you don't cut your nails for 40 days, I dont know if thats true, please show us the hadeeth!! but even so, do you make wudu sister? the Qu'ran does talk about it right? But I mean, that must be wrong, I mean what does Allah care if your clean or not, your only praying. Or why does Allah say dont eat the pig, that part of the Qu'ran must be wrong aswell, jee, this logic sure does make the right and wrong clear.

COme on, give me a break, you wanna say something is not right because it doesnt sound 'right' to some, did you know to some people Jesus not dyin doesn't sound right, so I assume just as those who dont like parts of hadeeth say 'it must be forged' those people can say 'that ayah was forged' and take it out lol.

You said: (a new muslim sister was told this in the masjid..you can imagine how she felt..very offended), Jee, look at how many people are upset that you cant ask Jesus for stuff, they must be offended too, does that mean its not right? Come sister.

I hope you get my point..again i apologise if i have offended any body..i am not a hadeeth rejector..there is only 1 Holy book the perfect Qur'an..the Criterion and i only accept hadeeths if they don't contradict with any Qur'anic verses keeping in mind that the only 100% fool proof way to establish the authenticity of many hadeeths is to actually go back in time which is an impossibility.

No need to apologise sister, this is just a discussion between brothers and sisters, inshaAllah.

The above is why I asked you to show me how the Qu'ran has been preserved, anyhow if you answer how then maybe we can see how the Sunnah has been preserved.

You say you only accept hadeeth if they dont contradict Qu'ran, thats what any Muslim says, the Hadeeth SCHOLARS hold this to be a way of seeing if a hadeeth is authentic, I trust the scholars.

Who tells you if a hadeeth contradicts Qu'ran? If you tell me you do your own research and so forth, then I will tell you that alot of people reject the Qu'ran becuse they do their own research but dont have enough knowledge to understand each 'supposed' contradiction, just as I can garantee you, that neither you and i have enough knowledge to understand each 'supposed' hadeeth that contradicts Qu'ran.

just 1 last thing..if everything the Prophet did and said is to be considered divinely inspired..then doesnt that mean that Prophet Muhammed pbuh is 100% perfect and cannot make errors of judgement, proof of which is in the Qur'an itself when Prophet Muhammed pbuh forbade honey to himself and then Allah told him it was wrong of him to do so? and that it is only Allah who makes things haraam and halaal? Also what about that hadeeth where Prophet Muhammed pbuh gives a man bad agricultural advice and the man's crops become bad? and then Prophet Muhammed told the man that he is only a man who can make mistakes?

It amazes me, I don't know how many times the topic of prophets peace be upon them and mistakes has been adressed, it seems you have not raed it.

The prophet, peace be upon him, was not left in any mistake, if he did make a mistake in conveying the religion, he was immideitly corrected by Allah, but he didnt just speak randomly.

[- Qatada -]

Rou, so you think that rejecting every single hadith will save a person? If something is questionable, then you ask those who have knowledge as its mentioned within the Qur'an.

Again, the issues of salaah,zakaah, hajj and sawm are always questionable if one was to reject the Authentic ahadith. If that path is true, then why does everyone who only accepts Qur'an not explain that?

[Rou]

Rou, so you think that rejecting every single hadith will save a person? If something is questionable, then you ask those who have knowledge as its mentioned within the Qur'an.

Again, the issues of salaah,zakaah, hajj and sawm are always questionable if one was to reject the Authentic ahadith. If that path is true, then why does everyone who only accepts Qur'an not explain that?

As i stated i would advise to be careful when following hadeeth and that is all not to reject it..for i am sure there are many hadeeth that are true but that is not the point here the point is IF we were meant to listen to anything BUT the quran now as stated there are many things we were told to follow of the prophet pbuh and through following his acts indeed but wether to follow such things through written form as the hadeeth that is all i wish to look at...
as i stated many dont wear henna in there hair why is that is that beacuse many reject hadith!? many in medina or mecca dont have beards or henna that is my question but it seems when asking such questions people get riled up this is not one mans religon nor one mans rules that one should be offended no one is insulting here they are questions and the answers can be found by questions...

heance the question about dates on hadith or details in the hadith that prove when they were said and if these dates are not present then there is a doubt on the "we were first forbidden but now are allowed to write hadith"

as stated we must be careful to preserve our religon not self destruct it by following blindly...

i have not once stated the hadiths to be a lie no..if i have stated anything that is that third parties that gatherd information were human and humans unlike allah cannot provide pure untamperd information of what was said by our prophet and that by logic is fact heance we should be careful and that is all...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

i am asking if the hadith are dated is that why we know that there was a diffrence in time or was there a mention of the time span in which these statments were made? so that one can judge the authenticty of that particular statment.

We know there is a difference it time because we see that many of the companions recorded the Ahadith in writing after Islam began to spread as I mentioned. This was a well known fact amongst the early generations it is not something obscure for which we have to do some kind of radiocarbon dating and analyse values to see which came first and so on. Just like we know certain verses of the Qur'an were revealed earlier than others, we know this about many of the Ahadith.

:w:

[Rou]

We know there is a difference it time because we see that many of the companions recorded the Ahadith in writing after Islam began to spread as I mentioned. This was a well known fact amongst the early generations it is not something obscure for which we have to do some kind of radiocarbon dating and analyse values to see which came first and so on. Just like we know certain verses of the Qur'an were revealed earlier than others, we know this about many of the Ahadith.

:w:

ok so there are no dates again we are going on heresay? and fairenough...

but the importance of date on this matter determines wether we should follow hadith at all!?? and that hadith is the single proof that we have that we should? so of course the date is of importance and it should not be based on what one thinks, it should be fact!? otherwise there are many hadith that point to the fact that state we should not follow hadith, and one that says at one point our prophet pbuh stated that we can write things down? and he reffered it to one person in that instance? where as he has pointed out in a much clearer hadith that his words apart from the quran should not be written down?

no one has no date and nor is there clairty of the permisson to write things down?

where as there has been a clear statment not to write things?

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??

without confirmation of date of that single hadith there is no real way of telling that our prophet pbuh ever wanted us to write such a thing as the hadith?

he clearly stated not to worship him or his image only allah and to follow allahs path that is stated in the quran!?

yet many talk of what the prophet pbuh did and how we should follow the hadith!?

the prophet pbuh was the best example of man indeed and he followed that which allah had shown him within the quran and he himself stated for those who beleive in the hadith that write nothing but the quran...

by stating that one thing be written down for one man that is not a proclamation to write all hadith!?? the lack of dating on this hadith is one thing the fact that other hadith are so clearly stated and others are said to be a statment that means we can write all things from now on sheds doubt on the matter...

i state again we must protect our religon for that is what is expected of us so we should be careful when following hadith...

[scentsofjannah]

hmm an intresting question are these hadith fact!? if so then indeed they raise a question on the hadeeth...

as for wether he could have made a mistake on the quran the quran was given by allah and what is within it was stated to the prophet pbuh from allah and the prophet pbuh would adhere to all that allah had said but if these hadeeth are correct then its is clear that we should follow only the quran that was gifted from allah to the mouth of our prophet pbuh.

:sl: brother

The Prophet is infallible when it comes to the Qur'an..he doesnt forget it..or mix it up ..but what I'm talking about is..if people say EVERYTHING the Prophet DID and SAID is divnely inspired..then that means Prophet Muhammed also doesnt make errors in judgement..( not in the Qur'an ofcourse but other normal things..you get me? an example is the honey incident..where Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him made a wrong judgement in that he forbade honey for himself..he swore not to touch it again..then Allah revealed the verses that said Prophet Muhammed shouldnt have forbde honey for himself that honey is a cure for many ailments and that it is only Allah that decides whats haraam and halaal for us..

i hope i made myself clear..Prophets are infallible when it comes to transmitting the message of Allah to us..in other things they can make errors like all humans..another example is Porphet Younus peace be upon him who became impatient with his stubborn people and then walked away..as a result he was in the belly of whale for three days and three nights.

:w: and take care.

[scentsofjannah]

where as he has pointed out in a much clearer hadith that his words apart from the quran should not be written down?

no one has no date and nor is there clairty of the permisson to write things down?

where as there has been a clear statment not to write things?

i have also seen those hadeeths..where Prophet Muhammed pbuh is reported to have said ' donot write anything of what i say down the Qur'an is enough for you'

this however didnt stop the people and its estimated Imam Bukhari collected half a million hadeeths and even comitted ALL of them to memory...how that possible Allah alone knows.

[Rou]

i have also seen those hadeeths..where Prophet Muhammed pbuh is reported to have said ' donot write anything of what i say down the Qur'an is enough for you'

this however didnt stop the people and its estimated Imam Bukhari collected half a million hadeeths and even comitted ALL of them to memory...how that possible Allah alone knows.

indeed..i bekleive when it comes to the hadith it iw always best to tred carefully for men have a way of twisting the words of the quran to fit there needs and it seems if they can do this with the noble quran then what can they do of the hadith heance why as muslims we should be careful of what we hear ad what we follow when in regards to the hadith as they are from a third party and not allahs words in clarity such as the quran...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

ok so there are no dates again we are going on heresay? and fairenough...

Thank you for complete ignoring my comments and repeating the same incoherent argument founded upon your own conjecture. I thought you were actually sincere about learning but your comments indicate otherwise. I hate to repeat myself, but here goes: YES we DO know which hadiths precede other hadiths just like we know which verses precede other verses from what we call contextual or circumstantial evidence - you know, the stuff they use in court to determine the guilt of the accused! Perhaps if you studied the sciences relating to An-Nâsikh wal Mansûkh or Asbâb an-Nuzûl then you would realize it is the exact same process in determining the order of revelation when it comes to the Qur'an. The fallacy in your argument is that you want specific dates but you are forced to appeal to the same arbitrary historical periods when it comes to defending the verses of the Qur'an against anti-islamic allegations. I know because of the articles I've written on the subject. Study Usûl al-Fiqh, or the logic behind the deductions of jurisprudential rulings, and you will learn about how apparently conflicting texts are resolved, one way being through the examination of the historical contexts. This understanding of the texts transmitted through the companions elucidates for the historical context involved. For instance, the hadith of Abu Shah shows how the writing of hadith was permissable by the time of the conquest of Makkah. So there are numerous evidences pertaining to the historical context of the hadith which place one earlier on the timeline than the other.

Your reference to "hearsay" is only a reflection of your own uncertainty about the sciences behind the historical documentation of the early history of Islam, which has the greatest amount of information transmitted to us through authentic chains and written records in stark contrast to what you ignorantly labelled "hearsay".

but the importance of date on this matter determines wether we should follow hadith at all!?

No it is not; your looking for excuses to misquote an earlier hadith and deny its place on a greater historical timeline. I've provided you with the answer to your objection, the fact that you cling to it only represents a stubborn unwillingness on your part to adapt your views in accordance with that which is most logically coherent and stubstantiated.

and one that says at one point our prophet pbuh stated that we can write things down? and he reffered it to one person in that instance?

Thank you for proving that you have failed to read even the most significant points in the article; Imam Nawawi said:

There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.

And the article proceeded to list several explicit unequivocal examples.

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??

Why don't you answer the challenges that our earlier hadith-rejectors have failed to answer one after another? Why do you celebrate Eid? Why do you pray the number of raka'ah that you do? What argument do you have against someone who claims that "salah" in the Qur'an just means to meditate? And the countless other arguments that our previous ahadith-rejectors have left UNANSWERED throughout this thread. Hadith-rejectors thrive on self-imposed ignorance and irrational obstinacy.

i state again we must protect our religon for that is what is expected of us so we should be careful when following hadith...

You have clearly proven that you are uninterested in objective debate on this topic but are only looking for excuses to justify your own misguided ill-informed understanding of Islam.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

if people say EVERYTHING the Prophet DID and SAID is divnely inspired..then that means Prophet Muhammed also doesnt make errors in judgement..

Had you studied Usûl al-Fiqh you would have known the rules for WHEN and HOW the Prophet's deeds are taken as part of the religion. For instance, when the Prophet Muhammad pbuh warns of hell for anyone who does a certain action, this is not some lapse in human judgement this is a religious directive which is taken as proof for the impermissibility of an action. God does not allow His Prophet to misguide people, because the function of the Prophet is to guide! Thus, when the Prophet pbuh made a mistake pertaining to his judgement he would be corrected explicitly by God, but he was divinely protected from errors in regards to religious affairs. You were forced to admit this distinction yourself when
you asserted that he was infallible in trasmitting the Qur'an. Logic necessitates that he was also infallible in providing religious guidance for the believers as well in all affairs. He wouldn't command every believer to abstain from X and to perform Y just on the basis of his own conjecture. Na'ûdhubillah, we see refuge in Him from such blatant misguidance.
In terms of his personal relations with people and his social dealings, then yes he could make minor mistakes like how he dealt with Ibn Umm Maktum, his wives, etc. But in conveying the religion? Never.

:w:

[Rou]

Thank you for complete ignoring my comments and repeating the sameincoherent argument founded upon your own conjecture. I thought you were actually sincere about learning but your comments indicate otherwise.I hate to repeat myself, but here goes: YES we DO know which hadiths precede other hadiths just like we know which verses precede other verses from what we call contextual or circumstantial evidence - you know, the stuff they use in court to determine the guilt of the accused! Perhaps if you studied the sciences relating to An-Nâsikh wal Mansûkh or Asbâb an-Nuzûl then you would realize it is the exact same process in determining the order of revelation when it comes to the Qur'an. The fallacy in your argument is that you want specific dates but you are forced to appeal to the same arbitrary historical periods when it comes to defending the verses of the Qur'an against anti-islamic allegations. I know because of the articles I've written on the subject. Study Usûl al-Fiqh, or the logic behind the deductions of jurisprudential rulings, and you will learn about how apparently conflicting texts are resolved, one way being through the examination of the historical contexts. This understanding of the texts transmitted through the companions elucidates for the historical context involved. For instance, the hadith of Abu Shah shows how the writing of hadith was permissable by the time of the conquest of Makkah. So there are numerous evidences pertaining to the historical context of the hadith which place one earlier on the timeline than the other.

Your reference to "hearsay" is only a reflection of your own uncertainty about the sciences behind the historical documentation of the early history of Islam, which has the greatest amount of information transmitted to us through authentic chains and written records in stark contrast to what you ignorantly labelled "hearsay".

No it is not; your looking for excuses to misquote an earlier hadith and deny its place on a greater historical timeline. I've provided you with the answer to your objection, the fact that you cling to it only represents a stubborn unwillingness on your part to adapt your views in accordance with that which is most logically coherent and stubstantiated.









Thank you for proving that you have failed to read even the most significant points in the article; Imam Nawawi said:

There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.

And the article proceeded to list several explicit unequivocal examples.

Why don't you answer the challenges that our earlier hadith-rejectors have failed to answer one after another? Why do you celebrate Eid? Why do you pray the number of raka'ah that you do? What argument do you have against someone who claims that "salah" in the Qur'an just means to meditate? And the countless other arguments that our previous ahadith-rejectors have left UNANSWERED throughout this thread. Hadith-rejectors thrive on self-imposed ignorance and irrational obstinacy.

You have clearly proven that you are uninterested in objective debate on this topic but are only looking for excuses to justify your own misguided ill-informed understanding of Islam.

:w:

One - i never said not to follow hadith nor rejected it..therefore to answer such questions as to why we would not follow eid or do salah are irrelevent to what i am trying to merely ask..perhaps it is better to understand that you are trying to strongly prove that the hadith are ALL to be followed where as i am stating that we should be careful of misguidence within hadith as they are third party and have never stated to reject them.

if you read what i wrote you will see i ASKED if they are dated or have kind of circumstance that shows there date you have explained they do thank you for answering my question...i would like to see an example of these..NO not to prove you wrong or the hadith wrong i have no intrest in proving you wrong or the haidth you and me are but a spec compared to allahs great religon i wish to see for my personal intrest and i would understand if you feel it is not ur duty to show such a thing!? no matter i can look myself if this is the case...however you seem to think that islam is in your backyard and i am trying to take it!? all muslims have a right to look into there religon without having to be bombareded with anger and being called ignorant for asking a question!?


Two - The state of mind in which you respond seems quite disturbing you are enraged you hate that i ask questions on the hadith and you answer with a disrespect that is the opposite of what our prophet taught and what is stated in the quran remember you are talking to a muslim brother not a kafir who is attacking your religon it is your ignorant view of what i am saying that has led to your anger and misguidence, do you really think by answering in such a manner you help spread clarity? do you actully beleive you are doing good by reacting the way you are to fellow muslims???

do you beleive that after reading your words i will take in the information that you have provided? or hear the anger and spite in your answers? these times are confusing enough without those who DO seem to hold information throwing it in the faces of there brothers instead of explaining it like a rational human being!

Now as stated the hadith have what you call dates of circumstance and that is what i wished to know about if they are strong facts then indeed they prove certain things in the hadith yet still they do not provide the clarity of certain hadiths that state not to write things down compared to the ones that state something may be written down for one man...

in plain our prophet pbuh was clear when he stated not to write things down apart from the quran and in other hadith states that ceratin things may be written down but weighing it out it seems the hadith that state not to write anything but the quran are stated in a clear form where as the others stating we may now write (all information as it is looked upon) are not so clear in there words...

also the hadith themselves at certain points seem unlclear no not beacuse of lack of understanding no compared to the clarity of the qurans verses and the fact that they are known to be the words of men which we all know are able to be misquoted and misinterprted...

on THAT basis it is better to take heed rather than take the hadith as allahs commands for the hadith compared to the quran are not close in any matter or form...

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I see you have not provided logical objections to my individual arguments but instead have vociferated emotional complaints?

One - i never said not to follow hadith nor rejected it..

Demonstrated your own uncertainty about your postion; your words:

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??

without confirmation of date of that single hadith there is no real way of telling that our prophet pbuh ever wanted us to write such a thing as the hadith?

he clearly stated not to worship him or his image only allah and to follow allahs path that is stated in the quran!?

yet many talk of what the prophet pbuh did and how we should follow the hadith!?

Either the Qur'an alone is sufficient or we NEED other sources to follow our religion. When it comes to taking a position here, you waffle in your uncertainty. Your silence on my questions is a concession that we NEED the sunnah of the Prophet saws to practice our religion, but the implication of your comments is that Allah swt failed to preserve a source that we need for our religion and that one of the vital sources of our religion has been flooded with confusion! We seek refuge in Allah swt from such misguidance! If you agree that we need a source other than the Qur'an then you've shot yourself in the foot with all the red-herrings you made highlighted above in purple. You say that the Qur'an is the full message, we shouldn't worship Muhammad pbuh, and you ask with incredulity about people being asked to follow the Hadith...and then you affirm yourself that we are required to follow the Ahâdîth anyway in order to practice oru religion properly!! Allahu'l Musta'ân.

you are trying to strongly prove that the hadith are ALL to be followed

The problem is that you don't realize that we ALREADY have a detailed methodology in sorting out which hadith we need to follow and which hadith we don't. The whole science of Mustalah al-Hadîth is something you've neglected entirely though over a millenia of Islamic scholarship has scrutinised the Ahâdîth according to stringent conditions to ascertain their authenticity. What you are saying we should do, has already been done!! The scholars have already sorted through the Ahâdîth, examined each person in each chain of narration and they have written HUGE commentaries on each hadith, explaining exactly why it is or is not authentic and the fiqhî rulings that are derived from it. And you act as though we need to repeat the whole processs even though you are not in the least familiar with the original process!

if you read what i wrote you will see i ASKED if they are dated or have kind of circumstance that shows there date you have explained they do thank you for answering my question

You are always welcome, but the thing is - when I first answered it you repeated the same excuses and actually were trying to dismiss the answer, which isn't appropriate for one who wants to learn.

...i would like to see an example of these..

Okay, go to any commentary on the historical context of Ahâdîth - a good place to start would be the english commentary on the forty hadith of Imam Nawawi by Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo, found in the left link in my sig.

and being called ignorant for asking a question!?

I did not call you ignorant for asking a question. My comment was in reference to how you attempted to disregard the answer to your question by repeating the same excuses.

do you really think by answering in such a manner you help spread clarity?

Depending on the atittude of the questioner, I respond accordingly. Look around the forum at my answers - I am kind and helpful to those who want to learn, and I am stern with those who are looking for excuses to attack the religion of Islam.

yet still they do not provide the clarity of certain hadiths that state not to write things down

This is laughable. Why not?? Why do you claim that "still they do not provide clarity" when the answer has been explained in the most clear and lucid fashion. Can you provide a concrete rational objection to the answer I have provided on these Ahâdîth or can you only say that "it still is not clear" ?

where as the others stating we may now write (all information as it is looked upon) are not so clear in there words...

What is unclear about their wording??

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

:w:

[GARY]

do you beleive that after reading your words i will take in the information that you have provided? or hear the anger and spite in your answers? these times are confusing enough without those who DO seem to hold information throwing it in the faces of there brothers instead of explaining it like a rational human being!

LOL! I am sorry Ansar! I know I am likely not supposed to comment like this, but I just have to! This member that is accusing you of what he is accusing you of, is being quite hypocritical. This very member lashes out often at others, and berates people for holding different opinions or not understanding his point of view.
There is some evidence of this in a search of his past posts, but often the remarks are so awful, that more are deleted by mods than what are left. That's how often it happens, as I am sure you are aware.

LOL! I am sorry Ansar, as I know this only makes your job more difficult,
it was just too funny for me to not comment! LOL! Now Ansar is the bad guy!

Hypocrite....LOL!

[Rou]

:sl:
I see you have not provided logical objections to my individual arguments but instead have vociferated emotional complaints?



Demonstrated your own uncertainty about your postion; your words:

and also that the quran is the full message for muslims??

without confirmation of date of that single hadith there is no real way of telling that our prophet pbuh ever wanted us to write such a thing as the hadith?

he clearly stated not to worship him or his image only allah and to follow allahs path that is stated in the quran!?

yet many talk of what the prophet pbuh did and how we should follow the hadith!?

Either the Qur'an alone is sufficient or we NEED other sources to follow our religion. When it comes to taking a position here, you waffle in your uncertainty. Your silence on my questions is a concession that we NEED the sunnah of the Prophet saws to practice our religion, but the implication of your comments is that Allah swt failed to preserve a source that we need for our religion and that one of the vital sources of our religion has been flooded with confusion! We seek refuge in Allah swt from such misguidance! If you agree that we need a source other than the Qur'an then you've shot yourself in the foot with all the red-herrings you made highlighted above in purple. You say that the Qur'an is the full message, we shouldn't worship Muhammad pbuh, and you ask with incredulity about people being asked to follow the Hadith...and then you affirm yourself that we are required to follow the Ahâdîth anyway in order to practice oru religion properly!! Allahu'l Musta'ân.

The problem is that you don't realize that we ALREADY have a detailed methodology in sorting out which hadith we need to follow and which hadith we don't. The whole science of Mustalah al-Hadîth is something you've neglected entirely though over a millenia of Islamic scholarship has scrutinised the Ahâdîth according to stringent conditions to ascertain their authenticity. What you are saying we should do, has already been done!! The scholars have already sorted through the Ahâdîth, examined each person in each chain of narration and they have written HUGE commentaries on each hadith, explaining exactly why it is or is not authentic and the fiqhî rulings that are derived from it. And you act as though we need to repeat the whole processs even though you are not in the least familiar with the original process!

You are always welcome, but the thing is - when I first answered it you repeated the same excuses and actually were trying to dismiss the answer, which isn't appropriate for one who wants to learn.

Okay, go to any commentary on the historical context of Ahâdîth - a good place to start would be the english commentary on the forty hadith of Imam Nawawi by Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo, found in the left link in my sig.

I did not call you ignorant for asking a question. My comment was in reference to how you attempted to disregard the answer to your question by repeating the same excuses.

Depending on the atittude of the questioner, I respond accordingly. Look around the forum at my answers - I am kind and helpful to those who want to learn, and I am stern with those who are looking for excuses to attack the religion of Islam.

This is laughable. Why not?? Why do you claim that "still they do not provide clarity" when the answer has been explained in the most clear and lucid fashion. Can you provide a concrete rational objection to the answer I have provided on these Ahâdîth or can you only say that "it still is not clear" ?

What is unclear about their wording??

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)



One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)

Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

:w:

You seem not to understand or wish to accept your attiude towards your answer and are telling me that there is a reason for the way you answer and that i must accept this!?? unfortunatly this is but only your view and i suggest you learn to talk to people with some respect give when it is given to you your view of me attacking islam is only in your eyes allah knows what is in all our hearts and needs not you to judge people and react in a negative way to them beacuse you dont grasp that not all my questions were answered in your orignal post!?

as stated i wished to see if the hadith were dated i also wishe to see an example of some of the dating via circumstance that you refer to that is not attacking islam!? only in your eyes...and you state that you are kind etc etc that is good you do no one but yourself a favour by being good but i can tell you straight your form of arguing as you stated is not helpful tothose seeking there own answers you seem to strangley think you are doing a great deed by protecting your view that you help islam...brther you but make the opposition want to take a stubborn stance and you come across abusive i suggest calming down.

and you ask why i state these as you call them emotinal complaints beacuse a muslim leads by example that is our biggest weapon be good and spread this...by acting the way you are towards the hadith question you help no one you but only push younger muslims who read this thread and have doubt on hadith further away...think...that is all i ask...you state this to be an argument that was your view to em i was but talking with my brothers you have obviously made a strong point that that is not your view on the matter?

well you have answered my questions on circumstantiul evidence and as i stated i will look at this evidence for my own sake and the sake of my religon however the hadith as i have stated and repeted as you kindley pointed out are the words of men and nothing will ever change that and they are not directly from the companions but recorded by third parties on that basis i will always advise caution...

as we both know they are not as pure as the words of the quran nor is it stated in the quran to hear the word of any mortal over the words of allah...

but the hadith as you have stated seem to show diffrent...

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

Again you are seeing something or reading that which i have not stated!? i state that many hadith are true but many seem not to run along with what the quran has said to us and contradictions can be seen..unlike the quran on that basis i advise caution and beleive not all hadith can be authentic as is known that many are not regarded as authentic and many are that is the issue that if some can be wrong then who are we mere humans to judge what the word of allah is and isnt who are we to state this one can be trusted and this cant we are but the creation of allah we have not his power of judgment yet we seem to think every hadith that was taken down is gaurnteed!??? i think not...

hopefully with more clarity on the circumstances that show the dates within this more clarity can be seen and if it cant again this is but my opinion i dont force it upon anyone..

however you seem quite adment that all haith must be followed otherwise that is not full islam that again is your opinion..not allahs command...

i suggest you look at debates as a brother trying to talk with another brother
for you do no favours to islam itself by your attitude and i have no wish to argue over faith in this way...

i insult no one nor disrespect so a little respect in the words used would not go astray...

:w:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol bro Rou, thats why we look to the Noble Qur'an as our source and reject what is contradictory. Why is that HARD TO UNDERSTAND! I'm not referring to u. Its just insane so many pages went through over this issue, yet here we are....Ya Allah...
The point is we cannot reject the Ahadith as it is narrations of the Beloved Prophet, but also should use the Qur'an as our backup source.
Plain and simple! Unless someone thinks otherwise...

[ameen]

as-salamu'alaikum,

Using the Qur'an tell me how many rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

I have already answered your question, which you even quoted in your reply, but you seem to repeat the same arguments yourself, while accusing others of doing this:

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly, the manner of performing hajj is also outlined in the Qur'an. Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

In other words, the manner of Salah / Prayer has been passed on from the Prophet's time throughout the generations, and so it is still alive today. This should not be very difficult for you to accept, because you believe that even the 'word-of-mouth' can be very accurately passed on throughout the ages. You should therefore be able to realise that the Salah, which is an action - not 'word-of-mouth' - is more easily passed on because it is practised by millions of Muslims around the world, five times day, and on a daily basis.

Similarly, Hajj is practiced annually by millions of Muslims every year, so in addition to the details of Hajj outlined in the Qur'an, the manner of Hajj too is passed on throughout the years. As for your question about Zakat / Charity and Fasting in Ramadan, I don't see what you are asking for, because everything we are required to know about giving Charity and Fasting is already all there in the Qur'an. If the Qur'an does not mention a minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Zakat - which it does not - then Allah has deliberately left this open and has not set a permanent minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Charity.

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food?

It is true that the Qur'an was the Only revelation sent to the Prophet, but this is not to say that the Prophet did not also have a brain. Therefore, the Prophet would not cut off the hands off children, or an insane man. Likewise, we too should use our logic and common-sense in judging these matters, which you agreed to recently in another thread:

And since you reject Ahadith, take Quran 4:3 as your evidence and your own common sense. Or will you reject common sense since it isnt mentioned in the Quran?

Exactly. Just by using our common-sense, it is enough to prevent us from cutting off the hands of an immature child, or an insane man. Furthermore, it makes more sense for Allah to leave such a judgement up to us, instead of fixing a minimum age for theft-punishment, because maturity and juvenility of children may vary according to society and era. For example, the age at which a child develops full understanding and sense of right and wrong may be different at different parts of the world, and in different time-zones.

Now let's take a look at the 'challenge' which has been repeatedly put forward several times in this thread, to try and prove the Divine authority of Hadith:

If you claim that there are no revelations to the Porphet Muhammad pbuh outside the Qur'an, then I have a challenge for you...

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNOWING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

In this verse, we learn that after the wife of the Prophet had disclosed a secret matter which was supposed to be between the Prophet and his wife, the Prophet told her that he had recieved this knowledge from Allah. Does this mean that the knowledge has to be in a revealed verse of the Qur'an? Of-course not, because when the Prophet recieved the knowledge, this may well be in the form of another person who has overheard the conversation of the wife, informing the Prophet about this incident, and all of this would be done by the Will of Allah. Therefore, it was Allah Who allowed the Prophet to find out about what had happened, and that is why the Prophet would tell his wife that he was told of it 'by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'.

In support of this, please look at the following verse, which shows that although believers may perform an action, the actual source of this may be referred to as Allah:

"It was not you (believers) who killed them; but it was Allah Who killed them ; and you did not throw when you did throw, but it was Allah Who threw, so that He might confer on the believers a fair benefit from Himself. Surely, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing." - (8:17)

Just like this, although a companion of the Prophet (a believer) may have informed the Prophet about the incident, the source of this action may also be referred to as Allah, because the incident occured by the permission of Allah, and it was Allah who willed that this companion would tell the Prophet. In light of all of this, it makes more sense that the Prophet did not tell his wife the specific name of the companion who had informed him, but instead decided to keep them anonymous, by simply telling her that he was told of it 'by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'. This is because exposing the name of the companion to his wife can potentially develop a mistrust and a grudge between his wife and the companion.

Now that your questions and 'challenges' are being answered, my only ONE challenge to you still remains - and that is for you to please show me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an, which confers Divine authority to Hadith as a source of Law in Islam. You will find - contrary to meeting this end - that any interpretation of a verse which you bring forward, can be exposed of the deceit, trickery, and sheer guile, which are aimed towards diverting Muslims away from the Book of Allah (The Holy Qur'an), and rather devoting themselves to the books of Hadith.


wsalam

[Umar001]

It amazes me what arguements are brought forward, totally amazing.

[Hijrah]

It amazes me what arguements are brought forward, totally amazing.

i remember a comment in this thread lol

"i don't reject hadith, I just don't blindly follow them"

That's a characteristic of the qur'aaniyyah they just follow whatever it is of the sunnah that suits them.

[Umar001]

Well to me its abit amazing that someone would accept something that hadeeth does, but hadeeth does it more safely, anyhow, im gonna leave the space for those adressed.

[AceOfHearts]

I am 'Companion' recently changed to 'AceOfHearts'.

Peace be to all.

Ahmed,

You had to stop me from speaking by threatening to delete my post, because you know that the refutations I gave (and Ameen) to the twists of the Qur'anic verses you and Ansar put up are totally unrefutable.

How do you pray?

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham also offered Salah at the Kabaa:

(Ibrahim said,) 'Our Lord! I have settled some of my offspring by Your Sacred House in an uncultivated valley. Our Lord! Let them perform Salah! Make the hearts of mankind incline towards them and provide them with fruits, so that hopefully they will be thankful.' [Qur'an 14:37]

(Ibrahim said,) 'My Lord" Make me and my descendants people who perform Salah. My Lord accept my prayer! [Qur'an 14:40]

As we can see, Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad. All the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad also performed Salah, as well as their followers:

We revealed to Musa and his brother: 'Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform Salah and give good news to the believers.' [Qur'an 10:87]

('Isa said,) 'He commanded me to perform Salah, to give alms as long as I live' [Qur'an 19:31]

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet. He used to enjoin on his people Salah and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord. [Qur'an 19:54-55]

Allah made a covenant with the tribe of Israel and We raised up twelve leaders from among them. Allah said, ‘I am with you. If you perform Salah and give the alms, and believe in my Messengers and respect and support them, and make a generous loan to Allah, I will erase your wrong actions from you and admit you into gardens with rivers flowing under them. Any of you who disbelieve after that have gone astray from the right way.’ [Qur’an 5:12]

Salah was a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform Salah to Allah alone, without associating any partners. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one. If I tell you that you should eat apples as it is good for you, you know what I am talking about. Likewise, the Qur'an tells us to perform the Salah for our benefit. We all know what Salah is.

Historically, even one of the earliest Surahs talk about Salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that Salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa, were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived and performed Salah at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.

Then how is Salah learnt today? If you are like most, you learnt Salah through your parents or care-takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - throughout the generations, as a ritual practice.

That is why we perform Salah with those who do their Salah:

Perform Salah and give the alms and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 2:43]

Just like Maryam was commanded to do:

O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 3:43]

People have been performing Salah at the sight of the Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, continuing through Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. :

And when we made the house (Kaaba) a place of return, a sanctuary for mankind: They took the place where Ibrahim stood (to pray) as a place of Salah. We contracted with Ibrahim and Isma’il: ‘Purify my house for those who circle it, and those who stay there, and those who bow and prostrate.’ [Qur’an 2:125]

The ritual of Hajj too is passed on in this manner, with the Qur'an detailing its essential components.

The Qur'an confirms the compulsory positions of Salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (Rukuh) and prostration (Sujuud). These are all in the Qur'an. If we deviate from having these primary positions in Salah, then we would know that we are moving away from the correct Salah.

The good thing is that all Muslims who perform their Salah today, do it according to these positions. If you do your five daily Salah like this (as most do), you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhabs' versions of Salah, are infact correct, although it is interesting that the secterian view entails ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!

The Qur'an gives the Wudu sequence that has to be performed before Salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer-times and Qiblah.

Since you claim that without the hadith we are lost with regards to Salah, here is my request to you: Please show me the hadiths which tell us the rakah sequence of 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

Lastly to Ansar-al-Adl, yes, Rou may well be a sincere enquirer. Your wrong definition of being a sincere enquirer is that one has to accept your belief of hadith the way you do. You seem to behave reasonably politely so long as one is adhering to your ways, but become rude and disrespectful to others when they do not.

You, as well as Ahmed, often just speak with emotional outbursts. Can we not speak with logic and intellect, maturely and with respect without being rude? If you don't, you are only a detriment to your own cause, because you may move people further away from what you believe.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Why are we instructed to follow the Prophet pbuh's pattern of conduct if the Qur'an is our only source?

Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example (uswatun hasanatun) has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God. [Qur'an 33:21]

Allah also says about Prophet Ibrahim and his companions, that they had a good example for us to follow:

There has been a good example (uswatun hasanatun) set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. [Qur’an 60:40]

So do we look into books of Hadith of Prophet Ibrahim to follow his example? No, we look into the Qur’an where we find his example, and to no other source. Likewise, the very same applies to the Prophet Muhammad. This good example of both Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Ibrahim is to be followed by us according to what we learn about them in the Qur’an.

The truth can withstand any level of criticism. If what you follow is the truth from your Lord, you need not display insecurity in your faith by being aggressive and rude.

Peace be to all.

[Hijrah]

I am 'Companion' recently changed to 'AceOfHearts'.

Peace be to all.

Ahmed,

You had to stop me from speaking by threatening to delete my post, because you know that the refutations I gave (and Ameen) to the twists of the Qur'anic verses you and Ansar put up are totally unrefutable.

How do you pray?

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham also offered Salah at the Kabaa:

(Ibrahim said,) 'Our Lord! I have settled some of my offspring by Your Sacred House in an uncultivated valley. Our Lord! Let them perform Salah! Make the hearts of mankind incline towards them and provide them with fruits, so that hopefully they will be thankful.' [Qur'an 14:37]

(Ibrahim said,) 'My Lord" Make me and my descendants people who perform Salah. My Lord accept my prayer! [Qur'an 14:40]

As we can see, Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad. All the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad also performed Salah, as well as their followers:

We revealed to Musa and his brother: 'Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform Salah and give good news to the believers.' [Qur'an 10:87]

('Isa said,) 'He commanded me to perform Salah, to give alms as long as I live' [Qur'an 19:31]

Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet. He used to enjoin on his people Salah and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord. [Qur'an 19:54-55]

Allah made a covenant with the tribe of Israel and We raised up twelve leaders from among them. Allah said, ‘I am with you. If you perform Salah and give the alms, and believe in my Messengers and respect and support them, and make a generous loan to Allah, I will erase your wrong actions from you and admit you into gardens with rivers flowing under them. Any of you who disbelieve after that have gone astray from the right way.’ [Qur’an 5:12]

Salah was a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform Salah to Allah alone, without associating any partners. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one. If I tell you that you should eat apples as it is good for you, you know what I am talking about. Likewise, the Qur'an tells us to perform the Salah for our benefit. We all know what Salah is.

Historically, even one of the earliest Surahs talk about Salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that Salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa, were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived and performed Salah at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.

Then how is Salah learnt today? If you are like most, you learnt Salah through your parents or care-takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - throughout the generations, as a ritual practice.

That is why we perform Salah with those who do their Salah:

Perform Salah and give the alms and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 2:43]

Just like Maryam was commanded to do:

O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship). [Qur'an 3:43]

People have been performing Salah at the sight of the Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, continuing through Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. :

And when we made the house (Kaaba) a place of return, a sanctuary for mankind: They took the place where Ibrahim stood (to pray) as a place of Salah. We contracted with Ibrahim and Isma’il: ‘Purify my house for those who circle it, and those who stay there, and those who bow and prostrate.’ [Qur’an 2:125]

The ritual of Hajj too is passed on in this manner, with the Qur'an detailing its essential components.

The Qur'an confirms the compulsory positions of Salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (Rukuh) and prostration (Sujuud). These are all in the Qur'an. If we deviate from having these primary positions in Salah, then we would know that we are moving away from the correct Salah.

The good thing is that all Muslims who perform their Salah today, do it according to these positions. If you do your five daily Salah like this (as most do), you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhabs' versions of Salah, are infact correct, although it is interesting that the secterian view entails ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!

The Qur'an gives the Wudu sequence that has to be performed before Salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer-times and Qiblah.

Since you claim that without the hadith we are lost with regards to Salah, here is my request to you: Please show me the hadiths which tell us the rakah sequence of 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

Lastly to Ansar-al-Adl, yes, Rou may well be a sincere enquirer. Your wrong definition of being a sincere enquirer is that one has to accept your belief of hadith the way you do. You seem to behave reasonably politely so long as one is adhering to your ways, but become rude and disrespectful to others when they do not.

You, as well as Ahmed, often just speak with emotional outbursts. Can we not speak with logic and intellect, maturely and with respect without being rude? If you don't, you are only a detriment to your own cause, because you may move people further away from what you believe.



Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example (uswatun hasanatun) has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God. [Qur'an 33:21]

Allah also says about Prophet Ibrahim and his companions, that they had a good example for us to follow:

There has been a good example (uswatun hasanatun) set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. [Qur’an 60:40]

So do we look into books of Hadith of Prophet Ibrahim to follow his example? No, we look into the Qur’an where we find his example, and to no other source. Likewise, the very same applies to the Prophet Muhammad. This good example of both Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Ibrahim is to be followed by us according to what we learn about them in the Qur’an.

The truth can withstand any level of criticism. If what you follow is the truth from your Lord, you need not display insecurity in your faith by being aggressive and rude.

Peace be to all.

With The revelations given to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) it abrogates everything else, did you know that statues were commonly used by some prophets, not for worshipping but still, to this day it is Haraam.

As far as salaah, how to perform it is strictly in the sunnah, does the qur'an tell you to say al-fatihah in every rak'ah give me a break

May Allah guide you, that's all I have top say...

[GARY]

I am happy to see that a certain someone has actually heard my words and has decided to finally be respectful when addressing others (I hope it is not only because the other is a mod), this will be a refreshing change.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Bro Ace, i have but one thing to say. At the start of ur post u said "How do you pray?" What i found odd is that you started with that specific title, yet u only gave verses that said that you "should" perform Salah. Only one said prostrate. That still does not answer the question. How do u know what to say? Does the Qu'ran say it? If so, then please provide a verse, then i can totally agree with you. You gave good info on how long it existed and where it started. I dont think anyone disagreed on the fact that your supposed to pray. If they did, then I most likely missed it.

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do Salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?"). There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of Salah; however, not all the details of Salah exist even within the entire collection of hadith.

No doubt that the Noble Qur'an tells you the preferred movements, but does it tell you what to say? How many each? How times? Thats why we say you cannot completely reject the Ahadiths and why u would use both the Qur'aan and Sunnah as the sources. Of course the Ahadiths aren't perfect like the Qur'an, thats why we use the Qur'an as our main source so we may know what contradicts the Qur'an. Well this is the most i have to say.

Take Care :)
Salaam Alaikum

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

You seem not to understand or wish to accept your attiude towards your answer and are telling me that there is a reason for the way you answer and that i must accept this!?? unfortunatly this is but only your view and i suggest you learn to talk to people with some respect give when it is given to you your view of me attacking islam is only in your eyes allah knows what is in all our hearts and needs not you to judge people and react in a negative way to them beacuse you dont grasp that not all my questions were answered in your orignal post!?

I suggest you review the discussion and re-read my posts since this issue has still eluded you. Your attitude towards learning will dictate the way in which you are given answers. By example, when a non-muslim asks me "how can you believe in a barbaric religion that commands you to chop hands off?!?!" the answer they get will get will differ manifestly from the answer to the question, "Could you explain the truth about the punishment of amputating hands and the conditions and wisdoms for this?"
Can you appreciate the difference between those two attitudes? Now with that in mind reflect on your own comments in this thread and the incredulity that punctuates every other sentence in your posts.

but i can tell you straight your form of arguing as you stated is not helpful

Thanks for your opinion but after several years of debates, dialogues and discussions with Muslims and Non-muslims on almost every topic I am quite comfortable with my methods. Maybe its time for you to reflect on your own.

you state this to be an argument that was your view to em i was but talking with my brothers you have obviously made a strong point that that is not your view on the matter?

What are you trying to say here? It is not clear at all what you are referring to.

out are the words of men and nothing will ever change that and they are not directly from the companions but recorded by third parties on that basis i will always advise caution...

No, only mursal hadiths are not directly from the companions so please look into the classifications before making such blunders.

as we both know they are not as pure as the words of the quran nor is it stated in the quran to hear the word of any mortal over the words of allah...

Double red-herrings. The Qur'an is of divine origin in both phrase and meaning while the Ahâdîth are divine in meaning since they come from the Prophet pbuh who was divinely inspired by God.

Take this with the fact that all the companions DID write many many Ahadith - how can anyone claim that they were all disobedient to the Prophet saws when he himself endorsed them?

Again you are seeing something or reading that which i have not stated!? i state that many hadith are true but many seem not to run along with what the quran has said to us and contradictions can be seen..

Again, you have missed the entire argument completely! Do I have to make it more simple or are you purposefully neglecting it? YOU claimed that the hadith forbidding writing was more clear and that the others were ambiguous (though you failed to substantiate this assertion). Now my argument is that all these companions DID write ahadith, so does this mean that they were all disobeying the Prophet's clear prohibition? How can anyone believe they were disobedient when the Prophet himself endorsed them?

unlike the quran on that basis i advise caution and beleive not all hadith can be authentic as is known that many are not regarded as authentic and many are that is the issue that if some can be wrong then who are we mere humans to judge what the word of allah is and isnt

Strawman. The scholars judge the authenticity of the hadith through text and transmission. Maybe you should learn about the process of authenticating a hadith before you advance the fanciful notion that it is arbitrary! You think these scholars just pick a label according to their whims? Go and look at the VOLUMES AND VOLUMES devoted to this science and scrutinising every single aspect of the Ahadith.

If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that they have milliions of scholars have conspired over THOUSANDS of hadith! These millions of scholars over hundreds of years who spent their lives devoted to this study made so many blunders that Br. Rou with no background education in hadith sciences needs to correct them by suggesting beginning the whole process all over again? You can't just toss 1400 years of Islamic scholarship in the rubbish bin like that without providing strong evidence to expose these supposed massive errors in their works.

however you seem quite adment that all haith must be followed otherwise that is not full islam that again is your opinion..not allahs command...

It is not my opinion, it is what Allah says.


4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Until you accept ALL of the prophetic teachings, you have NO faith. You can't say, "Well I'll follow this saying narrated from the Prophet, but not that other one of the same authenticity because I don't like it". Now you can ONLY justify rejecting the validity of a hadith if it falls short in its authenticity which is something that must be researched not arbitrarily claimed!

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl: ameen,

actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an.

All of these can be subjected to the same ta'weel which you apply on the other verses. For instance, the Qur'an says 'prostrate' but what if someone points out that it uses the same word for the sun, the trees, the moon, the stars and the mountains (22:18). So what if they say, "Oh we really just have to be in a constant state of submission to God like the sun and the moon and so we don't have to perform the five daily prayers". Likewise, they could place the same figurative interpretation on any word since your approach leaves the Qur'an completely open to the misinterpretations of masses (which is how so many verses get misquoted). Whereas taking Islam as it was revealed in the Qur'an, explained and implemented by the Prophet and as it was understood by the companions does not leave room for such baseless and imaginative distortions of this religion.
So according to your methodology there is no proof for any prayers.

And suppose they did not even go to the extreme of placing figurative interpretations on the verses but they just placed these actions out of order. Can anyone who just reads the Qur'an and reads these actions alluded to in references scattered throughout the text - can any such person come up with a coherent understanding of Salah? Of course not! So your words serve only to refute yourself here.

And what about the specifics of these actions? Take wudu. When is the water used for wudu classifed as taahir and when is it najis? There are HUGE fiqhi discussions on this issue. If someone uses a bucket of water to make their wudu can I make my wudu with the same water? If an animals comes and licks my wudu water can I still make wudu with that water?

Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.

Wrong. If we abandon definitive texts and rely on just imitiating the actions of whoever we see then we would be lost in a myriad of confusing innovations and mistakes! We need a definitive reference to turn to, in order to ensure that we are practicing the religion properly.

In other words, the manner of Salah / Prayer has been passed on from the Prophet's time throughout the generations, and so it is still alive today.

So is witr three raka'ah with one tasleem and two tasha'hud? Or three raka'ah with two tasleems? or three raka'ah with one tasleem and one tasha'hud? Please answer with evidence.

is more easily passed on because it is practised by millions of Muslims around the world, five times day, and on a daily basis.

The vast majority of whom follow the hadith and even a madh'hab! If there were no definitive reference then the practices would never have been able to proliferate to such an extent.

Similarly, Hajj is practiced annually by millions of Muslims every year, so in addition to the details of Hajj outlined in the Qur'an, the manner of Hajj too is passed on throughout the years.

And yet we know how many deviations and innovations crept into the pilgrimage during jahiliyah until the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. We would have had the same fate if it were not that our sources have been preserved and in this case that entails the sunnah as well.

And you don't seem to realize the scope of the fiqhi differences involved here. There are many jurisprudential differences relating to issues of the Hajj and these are even with the scholar's use of hadith!

As for your question about Zakat / Charity and Fasting in Ramadan, I don't see what you are asking for, because everything we are required to know about giving Charity and Fasting is already all there in the Qur'an.

Is there zakat on jewellery? What nullifies one's fast? What are the conditions involved in fasting? What is the threshold value for zakat? These are all up to our whims?

If the Qur'an does not mention a minimum percentage of wealth to give as Zakat - which it does not - then Allah has deliberately left this open and has not set a permanent minimum percentage of wealth to be given as Charity.

So how much does the Islamic government take? Can someone give a piece of lint as zakat if they are a multi-millionare?

It is true that the Qur'an was the Only revelation sent to the Prophet, but this is not to say that the Prophet did not also have a brain. Therefore, the Prophet would not cut off the hands off children or an insane man.

What if you meet another hadith-rejector who believes we should cut off the hand for everyone who is above the age of 6 years. And what if you meet one who says that even if someone steals something as minor as a walnut, they should have their hand cut off? You can't just set the limits according to your whims because that completely deprives the verses of any meaning. And is this burglarly, theft, pick-pocketing or what? There are very strict conditions for the implementation of these punishments based on the ahadith but hadith-rejectors could do whatever they want and wreak havoc.

Exactly. Just by using our common-sense, it is enough to prevent us from cutting off the hands of an immature child, or an insane man.

What about a father who steals from his son or a wife who steals from her husband? Is that 'common-sense'? If you leave it up to people, people will do whatever they like at the expense of others' rights and will spread destruction.

Furthermore, it makes more sense for Allah to leave such a judgement up to us, instead of fixing a minimum age for theft-punishment, because maturity and juvenility of children may vary according to society and era. For example, the age at which a child develops full understanding and sense of right and wrong may be different at different parts of the world, and in different time-zones.

If you make that arbitrary then it opens the gates to injustice as you will chop off the hand of one fifteen year old and leave the hand of an eighteen year old who acts immature. Even all the western countries stipulate minimum ages for offences, but you come up with fantasies that don't apply in any society.

In this verse, we learn that after the wife of the Prophet had disclosed a secret matter which was supposed to be between the Prophet and his wife, the Prophet told her that he had recieved this knowledge from Allah. Does this mean that this knowledge has to be in a revealed verse of the Qur'an? Of-course not, because when the Prophet recieved the knowledge, this may well be in the form of another person (who has overheard the conversation of the wife) informing the Prophet about this incident, and all of this would be done by the Will of Allah. Therefore, it was Allah who allowed the Prophet to find out about what had happened, and that's why the Prophet would tell his wife that he was 'told of it by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware'.

You evidently haven't thought much about this since you are denying the ayaat of Allah. The wives of the Prophet saws were shocked when he asked them about it since it was only known between the two of them and that is why it was miraculous that the Prophet pbuh found out about it. Furthermore, your interpretation renders the verse incoherent since the Prophet says that he was informed by the ALL-KNOWING, ALL-AWARE! Why would he say this if it was just some random person who came and told him? That doesn't demonstrate the omniscience of God!! But he says that he was told by the one who knows and is aware of everything so immeidately he attributes the knowledge to miraculous means.

Now that your questions and 'challenges' are being answered, my only ONE challenge to you still remains - and that is for you to please show me a single verse from the Holy Qur'an, which confers Divine authority to Hadith as a source of Law in Islam.

You haven't answered ANY of my posts in which I have done this and you want to restart the whole discussion?!? You ignored my latest response to you four weeks ago in which I debunked your feeble attempt to deny the proof in the verse I provided:
http://www.islamicboard.com/528430-post174.html
I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life.

:w:

[AceOfHearts]

I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life.

:w:

Peace,

People have other things to do in life than just to sit on this thread looking for posts to respond to as soon as they come up.

We reply when it is convenient for us to do so around other schedules of life.

Peace be to you.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

10: 39. Rather they deny what they cannot understand and when the explanation of it comes to them. Such is the denial of those who preceded them and look at the outcome of the deniers of the truth.


Imaam Ahmed (may Allah Most High have mercy upon him) has said “Whosoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction”

Ishaaq ibn Raahuwayh said: “Whosoever has received information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) confirms its authenticity and then rejects it without knowledge (i.e evidence to the contrary) is a disbeliever (kaafir).”

Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaari stated in his Sharhus-Sunnah “If you hear a man who discredits the traditions and does not accept them or he denies something of the information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then doubt his Islam for he is a man of the vilest thought and speech. He is in fact discrediting the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah.” He also stated “Any one of the people of the qiblah is not expelled from the fold of Islam until he has rejected a verse of the Book of Allah the Mighty and Sublime or has rejected something from the traditions of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or prays to other than Allah or slaughters for other than Allah. If so, it is your duty to expel him from the fold of Islam.”

He further stated “Whosoever rejects a single verse from Allah's Book has rejected the Book in its entirety, and whosoever rejects ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has certainly rejected the entirety of the traditions and is by that a disbeliever in Allah the Most Great.”

Ibraaheem ibn Ahmed ibn Shaaqilaa has said “Whoever opposes news [of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and insolently dares to reject what has been transmitted by a trustworthy narrator (adl) who has transmitted directly from someone who is also adl - with no break in the chain of narration and no criticism of transmitters (narrators) - has forced his way into the rejection of Islam”.

Ibn Hazm stated in Kitaabul Ahkaam “When there comes the text (of a hadeeth) and no two Muslims differ on its correctness and authenticity as having come from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and being what he has in fact said, then it is obligatory to follow it. It (i.e. the sunnah) is the explanation of what Allah intends in the Qur'aan and clarification of what has been mentioned without details.”

:w:

[Rou]

Lol bro Rou, thats why we look to the Noble Qur'an as our source and reject what is contradictory. Why is that HARD TO UNDERSTAND! I'm not referring to u. Its just insane so many pages went through over this issue, yet here we are....Ya Allah...
The point is we cannot reject the Ahadith as it is narrations of the Beloved Prophet, but also should use the Qur'an as our backup source.
Plain and simple! Unless someone thinks otherwise...

No i agree this is indeed the case that the quran should be used to back up that which we follow in the hadith i have never stated otherwise...

to reject hadith is not what is being suggested by me no to tread carefully when accepting hadith as allahs command that is what i ask to be careful of...

overall i agree with your statment that if you reject ALL hadith then there is information there that will be lost however again if you accept without thinking or reffering to the quran on many hadith you will then be but a blind follower of information and that is all...

:sl:

[Rou]

i remember a comment in this thread lol

"i don't reject hadith, I just don't blindly follow them"

That's a characteristic of the qur'aaniyyah they just follow whatever it is of the sunnah that suits them.

indeed i beleive that may have been my comment..it amazes me that many who claim to beleive in allah souly and follow only his path and never to follow idols or to idelise anyone but allah take so easy to words that are third party and question them not even for a second?

that amazes me..that to follow that what was written by allahs command and that which was written by the words of men are two diffrent things and to take them souly as allahs command without thinking about them even for a second indeed this amazes me....

no one is saying you have not looked at them what i am stating is that many seem to find it strange that they are questioned!??

think....

if millions were taken down and then only a few were trusted what does that tell you!??

that there is easily a chance of mischief if many wanted and that we must take heed when looking at such things...

:sl:

[Rou]

:sl:

I suggest you review the discussion and re-read my posts since this issue has still eluded you.(Your attitude towards learning will dictate the way in which you are given answers. By example, when a non-muslim asks me "how can you believe in a barbaric religion that commands you to chop hands off?!?!" the answer they get will get will differ manifestly from the answer to the question, "Could you explain the truth about the punishment of amputating hands and the conditions and wisdoms for this?"
Can you appreciate the difference between those two attitudes? Now with that in mind reflect on your own comments in this thread and the incredulity that punctuates every other sentence in your posts.

Thanks for your opinion but after several years of debates, dialogues and discussions with Muslims and Non-muslims on almost every topic I am quite comfortable with my methods. Maybe its time for you to reflect on your own.

What are you trying to say here? It is not clear at all what you are referring to.

No, only mursal hadiths are not directly from the companions so please look into the classifications before making such blunders.

Double red-herrings. The Qur'an is of divine origin in both phrase and meaning while the Ahâdîth are divine in meaning since they come from the Prophet pbuh who was divinely inspired by God.


Again, you have missed the entire argument completely! Do I have to make it more simple or are you purposefully neglecting it? YOU claimed that the hadith forbidding writing was more clear and that the others were ambiguous (though you failed to substantiate this assertion). Now my argument is that all these companions DID write ahadith, so does this mean that they were all disobeying the Prophet's clear prohibition? How can anyone believe they were disobedient when the Prophet himself endorsed them?

Strawman. The scholars judge the authenticity of the hadith through text and transmission. Maybe you should learn about the process of authenticating a hadith before you advance the fanciful notion that it is arbitrary! You think these scholars just pick a label according to their whims? Go and look at the VOLUMES AND VOLUMES devoted to this science and scrutinising every single aspect of the Ahadith.

If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that they have milliions of scholars have conspired over THOUSANDS of hadith! These millions of scholars over hundreds of years who spent their lives devoted to this study made so many blunders that Br. Rou with no background education in hadith sciences needs to correct them by suggesting beginning the whole process all over again? You can't just toss 1400 years of Islamic scholarship in the rubbish bin like that without providing strong evidence to expose these supposed massive errors in their works.

It is not my opinion, it is what Allah says.


4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Until you accept ALL of the prophetic teachings, you have NO faith. You can't say, "Well I'll follow this saying narrated from the Prophet, but not that other one of the same authenticity because I don't like it". Now you can ONLY justify rejecting the validity of a hadith if it falls short in its authenticity which is something that must be researched not arbitrarily claimed!

:w:

:w:

ok brother it seems you know the science i know nothing and much seems to but elude me!??

Brother you seem adment this is a fight to be won by either you or me!? i see it not in the same manner i do not fight with my own brothers over the belif of things i merely ask questions yet you seem to think i am out to prove the hadith fake and you wrong!?

This is no game to me no is it about winning thank you for your insight on the matter brother for if this is a game then you win...for me i will continue to look into my religon and to learn further without blindfolds or pressure from other muslims to beleive that which they have been programmed to beleive and then call it the will of allah..and i suggest you do relook how you present yourself to fellow muslims and non muslims for you help no one in this way..

you cannot beat anyone in to being a muslim...

you will but beat them into defince...

lead by example by being a good muslim and what is a good muslim well he who claims he is,is but a fool the judgments of humans are but a joke that is for allah to decide and we will see one day i guess...



I wish no insult to you brother but it is comments as such below that lead me to the belif that your view of what is happening is quite diffrent to what is really going for you are not being attacked and nor is there anyone out to take what you seem to think is your religon alone therefore it is better
not to argue in such a way....Thank you for your time...:sl:


"I see quite clearly the tactics of hadith-rejectors. You periodically pop in with same rhetoric every month, get disgraced when your arguments are completely annihilated, lie low for another month, and then pop in with the exact same claims. I think you need to seriously reform your attitude if you hope for any intellectual growth in life"

[scentsofjannah]

Imaam Ahmed (may Allah Most High have mercy upon him) has said “Whosoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction”

:w:

:sl:

correct me if im wrong but didnt Imam Ahmed refuse to narrate hadeeths from people who didnt sit 'right'..? because he thought they didnt have adaab? Also doesnt his musnad contain many doubtful hadeeths?

:w:

[AceOfHearts]

:sl:

10: 39. Rather they deny what they cannot understand and when the explanation of it comes to them. Such is the denial of those who preceded them and look at the outcome of the deniers of the truth.


Imaam Ahmed (may Allah Most High have mercy upon him) has said “Whosoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is on the brink of destruction”

Ishaaq ibn Raahuwayh said: “Whosoever has received information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) confirms its authenticity and then rejects it without knowledge (i.e evidence to the contrary) is a disbeliever (kaafir).”

Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaari stated in his Sharhus-Sunnah “If you hear a man who discredits the traditions and does not accept them or he denies something of the information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then doubt his Islam for he is a man of the vilest thought and speech. He is in fact discrediting the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah.” He also stated “Any one of the people of the qiblah is not expelled from the fold of Islam until he has rejected a verse of the Book of Allah the Mighty and Sublime or has rejected something from the traditions of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or prays to other than Allah or slaughters for other than Allah. If so, it is your duty to expel him from the fold of Islam.”

He further stated “Whosoever rejects a single verse from Allah's Book has rejected the Book in its entirety, and whosoever rejects ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has certainly rejected the entirety of the traditions and is by that a disbeliever in Allah the Most Great.”

Ibraaheem ibn Ahmed ibn Shaaqilaa has said “Whoever opposes news [of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and insolently dares to reject what has been transmitted by a trustworthy narrator (adl) who has transmitted directly from someone who is also adl - with no break in the chain of narration and no criticism of transmitters (narrators) - has forced his way into the rejection of Islam”.

Ibn Hazm stated in Kitaabul Ahkaam “When there comes the text (of a hadeeth) and no two Muslims differ on its correctness and authenticity as having come from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and being what he has in fact said, then it is obligatory to follow it. It (i.e. the sunnah) is the explanation of what Allah intends in the Qur'aan and clarification of what has been mentioned without details.”

:w:

Peace,

100 scholars vs. One God:

"Those who deny God's revelations will suffer severe torment: God is almighty, capable of retribution." [Qur'an 3:4]

"Yes indeed, My revelations came to you, but you denied them and turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters." [Qur’an 39:59]

"To Him belongs the keys of the heavens and the Earth. And those who rejected God's revelations, they are the losers." [Qur’an 39:63]

“If people do not believe in God’s revelation, God does not guide them, and a painful punishment awaits them. Falsehood is fabricated only by those who do not believe in God’s revelation: they are the liars.” [Qur’an 16:104-105]

“And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided.” [Qur’an 18:57]

"And when a Scripture came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected; so when what they knew came to them, they rejected it! God's curse be upon the rejecters." [Qur'an 2:89]

"Miserable indeed is what they purchase with their souls, that they disbelieve in what God has sent down as a resentment that God would send down from His grace to whom He pleases of His servants; thus they have incurred wrath upon wrath. And the rejecters will have a humiliating retribution." [Qur'an 2:90]

"And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." [Qur'an 4:140]

So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters. [Qur'an 5:44]

"Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record;" [Qur'an 7:37]

The above are the very words of Allah! There is no authority greater than Him! He says the disbelievers are those who disbelieve in Allah and/or His book - the Qur'an and NOT the Hadith books. The matter is settled.

Now Ahmed, you quoted the Qur'an 10:39 at the top of your post. Did you know that it is refering to the Qur'an? Were you purposefully trying to twist it? Here are the verses from the Qur'an 10:37 to 10:39, and let us see what the verse is REALLY talking about:

"[10:37] This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds. [10:38] Or do they say he invented it? Say: "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!" [10:39] Nay! they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong!" [Qur'an 10:37-39]

Clearly 10:39 is refering to the rejection of the Qur'an, and not the books of Hadith. Again, looks like another attempt to twist the Qur'an to give divine authority to Hadith books.

I have a question for you Ahmed, Ansar-al-Adl is welcomed to join in.

Since you believe that anyone who rejects Hadith as guidance and follows only the Qur'an becomes a non-Muslim, in a Sunni state, would you put such people to death, assuming such a person was a former Sunni?

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...g&txt=apostasy

Peace be to all.

[- Qatada -]

AceofHearts, who said that these brothers rejected the Qur'an? You're attacking them because they accept the hadith, whereas you're the one who's rejecting the Qur'an because you're disobeying Allaah's messenger (peace be upon him.)


I sometimes see in some hadith rejectors posts, and they say we 'love the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him)' yet how can you claim to love someone you don't even know? This totally goes against common sense, and any normal person can tell you this. You may say you love him because he passed on the message, but you still can't love someone if you don't even know who they are.

Also, if the Qur'an is open to anyones interpretation - if two parties disagree, who is the one who's right? We only follow the Qur'an according to the understanding of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) If Allaah can preserve the lives of the previos prophets, why can't He preserve the life of His final messenger - Muhammad (peace be upon him)? Like it's been mentioned before, if the Qur'an was written and compiled by some of these companions and been preserved, why can't we trust them on the authentic ahadith that they narrate too?


Why are the lives of the previous prophets mentioned, it's because they are an example to us right? So why does it seem that Muhammad (peace be upon him), who has come as a messenger to all the worlds has to be rejected, his lifestory has to be rejected, and his way has to be rejected? He is the messenger of Allaah, and if we can follow the previous prophets examples, surely Allaah has sent this messenger so that we may follow his final prophets example too. He was sent to all of mankind, not just for the people at his time.



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[Hijrah]

indeed i beleive that may have been my comment..it amazes me that many who claim to beleive in allah souly and follow only his path and never to follow idols or to idelise anyone but allah take so easy to words that are third party and question them not even for a second?

that amazes me..that to follow that what was written by allahs command and that which was written by the words of men are two diffrent things and to take them souly as allahs command without thinking about them even for a second indeed this amazes me....

no one is saying you have not looked at them what i am stating is that many seem to find it strange that they are questioned!??

think....

if millions were taken down and then only a few were trusted what does that tell you!??

that there is easily a chance of mischief if many wanted and that we must take heed when looking at such things...

:sl:

I don't think it was actually, but it's just all the more sad because in reality you are disobeying Allah and the Qur'aan by doing this...like fi_sabilillah just mentioned above.

:sl:

[AceOfHearts]

AceofHearts, who said that these brothers rejected the Qur'an? You're attacking them because they accept the hadith, whereas you're the one who's rejecting the Qur'an because you're disobeying Allaah's messenger (peace be upon him.)


I sometimes see in some hadith rejectors posts, and they say we 'love the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him)' yet how can you claim to love someone you don't even know? This totally goes against common sense, and any normal person can tell you this. You may say you love him because he passed on the message, but you still can't love someone if you don't even know who they are.

Also, if the Qur'an is open to anyones interpretation - if two parties disagree, who is the one who's right? We only follow the Qur'an according to the understanding of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) If Allaah can preserve the lives of the previos prophets, why can't He preserve the life of His final messenger - Muhammad (peace be upon him)? Like it's been mentioned before, if the Qur'an was written and compiled by some of these companions and been preserved, why can't we trust them on the authentic ahadith that they narrate too?


Why are the lives of the previous prophets mentioned, it's because they are an example to us right? So why does it seem that Muhammad (peace be upon him), who has come as a messenger to all the worlds has to be rejected, his lifestory has to be rejected, and his way has to be rejected? He is the messenger of Allaah, and if we can follow the previous prophets examples, surely Allaah has sent this messenger so that we may follow his final prophets example too. He was sent to all of mankind, not just for the people at his time.



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

Peace be upon you brother,

Who said I said these brothers rejected the Qur'an? I responded to Ahmed's post where he posted scholarly quotes where it said rejecting Hadith makes one a disbeliever. I proved using the Qur'an, that according to the Qur'an, only those who reject the Qur'an, and NOT the Hadith books are 'disbelievers'.

The previous Prophet's stories and trials have been recorded in the Qur'an, as well as the struggles Prophet Muhammad went thorugh. Now, not accepting the divine authority of Hadith books does not mean we deny history. We know about many ancient civilisations, through methods other than Hadith. If Hadith can be seen as such a means where it used only as a historical reference, I have no problem with that. But I cannot accept the use of it as divine law because the Qur'an gives no authority to texts written after it. Hadith derived divine law eg. stoning to death of adulterers/ress', killing of apostastes, extra-Qur'anic divorce laws and the hundreds of man-made fatwas passed on by the scholars. etc. have no Qur'anic basis.

And no, the Hadith has not been written by the same people who wrote the Qur'an. The Qur'an was written down streight away, the everyday words the Prophet was speaking was not.

The Qur'an is self explenatory - you just have to be sincere, have faith in Allah, and be willing to think.

Peace.

[Hijrah]

Peace be upon you brother,

Who said I said these brothers rejected the Qur'an? I responded to Ahmed's post where he posted scholarly quotes where it said rejecting Hadith makes one a disbeliever. I proved using the Qur'an, that according to the Qur'an, only those who reject the Qur'an and not the Hadith books are 'disbelievers'.

The previous Prophet's stories and trials have been recorded in the Qur'an, as well as the struggles Prophet Muhammad went thorugh. Now, not accepting the divine authority of Hadith books does not mean we deny history. We know about many ancient civilisations, through methods other then Hadith. If Hadith can be seen as such a means where it used only as a historical reference, I have no problem with that. But I cannot accept the use of it as divine law eg. stoning to death of adulterers/ress', killing of apostastes, extra-Qur'anic divorce laws and the hundreds of man-made fatwas passed on by the scholars. etc.

And no, the Hadith has not been written by the same people who wrote the Qur'an. The Qur'an was written down streight away, the everyday words the Prophet was speaking was not.

The Qur'an is self explenatory - you just have to be sincere, have faith in Allah, and be willing to think.

You reject vital commands in the Qur'aan if you reject what the Prophet said, it doesn't have to do with divine authority of Hadith books, you reject the stoning of adulterers and adulteresses, and what teh scholars said like you mentioned you are clearly opposing what the Qur'aan says which is to obey Allah and his messenger, if the messenger was the one given guidance, then why is not any of what he said reliable, are you implying that he was majnun and we are supposed to ignore what he said completely and only rely on Qur'aan by just reading it, which would imply we give our own interpretation? Clearly, if you Just read the Qur'aan without knowing what is the meaning of such and such a verse, what is it referring to, that's a vital mistake and it's obviously the Prophet who knew this best and hence, there is Hadith about verses in the Qur'aan, and about misunderstanding the Hadith and blind following, surely the scholars throughout history from the sahaba's time, their children and their children, the early scholars had this on lock and knew this well, I'm sorry but your argument doesn't prevail, I think it just upsets you that Islam would have such a punishment for apostasy and adultery that's all..

:sl:

[Rou]

I don't think it was actually, but it's just all the more sad because in reality you are disobeying Allah and the Qur'aan by doing this...like fi_sabilillah just mentioned above.

:sl:

I suggest you stick to rueling your own terms and not allahs do not state to another brother that he is disobeying the quran and allah you have no right do you understand?

i can say the same for you if i wished it but i know better that allah is the judge of all things not me!

i question the hadith and state clearly that they are the words of men and not to be held beside the words of allah and that is that..do not mistake my respect for weakness and state such comments for you insult with these words and there is no need...

i disobey the quran and allah!? the quran is allahs full message and as stated in the verse stated by ace of hearts that there will be no book that can be created to the statis of the quran and if you have the power try you will but fail...

allah decrees that no other book will match his words within the quran yet you follow the hadith that is written by men and state that it should be followed like the quran!????

take heed in your own words do not disobey the almighty and do not stray from the quran..the hadith if anything give us an insight to the life of the prophet but to take them for allahs words??? to follow them all otherwise be dammed!?? you follow a book apart from the quran and see the hadith not as words of humans! you should be careful what you disobey and who you point the finger of being a kafir to! who follows not allahs path for you insult your very brothers only beacuse they ask questions!??

follow blindly if you wish i have no need to follow blindly for allah has put in all of us knowledge to find the truth and follow clearly his signs he has never stopped us of asking questions on such things as hadith and the writings of men..so do not make your own laws and your own judgments for allah watches all that we do!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

Since you believe that anyone who rejects Hadith as guidance and follows only the Qur'an becomes a non-Muslim, in a Sunni state, would you put such people to death, assuming such a person was a former Sunni?

The rulings pertaining to apostasy are explained here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
Whether a hadith-rejector qualifies as an apostate depends on what exactly the views of that individual are and their understanding. Hadith-rejectors do not follow the Qur'an only, since the Qur'an commands one to follow the sunnah. Hadith-rejectors follow the Qur'an only when it suits their preconceived views and whims. They are free to distort the verses to mean whatever, whether they do it deny prayer, to justify the killings of innocents, etc.

Who said I said these brothers rejected the Qur'an? I responded to Ahmed's post where he posted scholarly quotes where it said rejecting Hadith makes one a disbeliever. I proved using the Qur'an, that according to the Qur'an, only those who reject the Qur'an, and NOT the Hadith books are 'disbelievers'.

Petitio principii. The Qur'an says that those who reject the revelation are disbelievers, you assume that revelation refers exclusively to the Qur'an, a claim which was definitively debunked in this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/525614-post153.html
After which you tried to retract your statement but only magnified the blunder; see here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/528430-post174.html

But I cannot accept the use of it as divine law because the Qur'an gives no authority to texts written after it.

Wrong, you've made many feeble attempts to deny the explicit verses provided but all your attempts have been refuted point-by-point one after another. See the above links. After each refutation you drop that issue and run to another. When you run out of claims, you wait a while and then resurface with the exact same ones!

And no, the Hadith has not been written by the same people who wrote the Qur'an. The Qur'an was written down streight away, the everyday words the Prophet was speaking was not.

The Qur'an was written by men. As you said humans can make mistakes, why should we trust fallible men to transmit the Qur'an to us? And what you claim abotu hadeeth was refuting again and again almost every other post in this thread! Read about the hadith compilations of the companions who wrote down the hadith during the life of the Prophet saws:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

I challenge you to provide any reason why we should prefer the preservation of the Qur'an over that of Ahadith. The same people who preserved the Qur'an preserved the hadith. "written down streight away" by WHO? the same companions who wrote down ahadith straight away.

The Qur'an is self explenatory - you just have to be sincere, have faith in Allah, and be willing to think.

That's what the Christians thought and now look at how many ways they interpret the Bible. Allah has protected us from all this deviation by giving us a crystal clear path to follow from which no one can deviate:

Irbaad ibn Sariyah reported that Prophet (saw) said: “I have left you upon clear white ground, its night is like its day, no one deviates from it except that he is destroyed, and whoever lives among you will see great differences (controversy). So stick to what you know from my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly acting (raashideen) rightly guided (mahdiyeen) khulafaa, cling to that with your molar teeth. (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan At-Tirmidhi, Sunan Ibn Maajah, Sunan Al-Bayhaqi)

We reply when it is convenient for us to do so around other schedules of life.

And by convenient you mean wait it out and spread some subtle anti-hadith misguidance in other threads, then both of you plan to respond together and raise the exact same issues that were already discussed one month ago, as if people have no long-term memory.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I suggest you stick to rueling your own terms and not allahs do not state to another brother that he is disobeying the quran and allah you have no right do you understand?

Actually its from the Qur'an that you have to obey Allah AND His messenger, ulike how you ONLY spoke of disobeying Allah.

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

33:36 It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

i disobey the quran and allah!? the quran is allahs full message and as stated in the verse stated by ace of hearts that there will be no book that can be created to the statis of the quran and if you have the power try you will but fail...

Did anyone claim that the language of the hadith match the inimitability of the Qur'an? Strawman fallacy again and again and again.

take heed in your own words do not disobey the almighty and do not stray from the quran

The Qur'an itself does not stop short like you did what obedience to Allah, but it speaks of obedience to Allah AND HIS MESSENGER.

follow blindly if you wish

Red-herring. Who doesn't blindly follow God once they are convinced of His reality? Who doesn't blindly follow the messenger of God once they are convinced of the veracity of his prophethood?

I'll ignore your earlier lachrymose ramble; if you have any logical arguments or objections bring them forward. If not, don't waste peoples' time.

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

6: 26. And they prevent others from him (from following Prophet Muhammad ) and they themselves keep away from him, and (by doing so) they destroy not but their ownselves, yet they perceive (it) not.

Its funny how the Quran itself testifies to your falsehood. And its even funnier how it has shown the reason of your Ahadith rejection and the kufr of the Kuffar:

10: 39. Nay, they deny that; the knowledge whereof they could not compass and whereof the interpretation has not yet come unto them. Thus those before them did deny. Then see what was the end of the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)!

So please, try and learn and do not repeat your age old claims again and again and again and again.

:w:

[Hijrah]

I suggest you stick to rueling your own terms and not allahs do not state to another brother that he is disobeying the quran and allah you have no right do you understand?

i can say the same for you if i wished it but i know better that allah is the judge of all things not me!

i question the hadith and state clearly that they are the words of men and not to be held beside the words of allah and that is that..do not mistake my respect for weakness and state such comments for you insult with these words and there is no need...

i disobey the quran and allah!? the quran is allahs full message and as stated in the verse stated by ace of hearts that there will be no book that can be created to the statis of the quran and if you have the power try you will but fail...

allah decrees that no other book will match his words within the quran yet you follow the hadith that is written by men and state that it should be followed like the quran!????

take heed in your own words do not disobey the almighty and do not stray from the quran..the hadith if anything give us an insight to the life of the prophet but to take them for allahs words??? to follow them all otherwise be dammed!?? you follow a book apart from the quran and see the hadith not as words of humans! you should be careful what you disobey and who you point the finger of being a kafir to! who follows not allahs path for you insult your very brothers only beacuse they ask questions!??

follow blindly if you wish i have no need to follow blindly for allah has put in all of us knowledge to find the truth and follow clearly his signs he has never stopped us of asking questions on such things as hadith and the writings of men..so do not make your own laws and your own judgments for allah watches all that we do!

If you would actually re-read the post I made, you would know, I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone as you are doing, saying that I specifically said Rou is disobeying Allah and his Rasool or AceofHearts is doing so, you made that same assumption against the threadstarter who simply said that Hadith rejectors are kaafirs not directly calling boistop a kafir

Now about questioning Hadith, how can you when again let me state that Allaah HIMSELF stated that you follow tha particular man, that this is the particular man that had been given guidance. Indeed, i follow no one blindly if I am following, and I hope to Allah that I am following that which he ordained which is following him and his messenger. I find it strange how u find such things questionable. And I really do pity the Hadith rejectors (not directing this at you) not only is rejecting such a thing straying from As-Siraat-ul-Mustaqeem, ou are missing out on quite a lot, including great scholarly books where you learn about the Qur'aan and it's meaning, unfortunately for you, Hadiths are commonly used...

[Hijrah]

Actually its from the Qur'an that you have to obey Allah AND His messenger, ulike how you ONLY spoke of disobeying Allah.

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

33:36 It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.


Did anyone claim that the language of the hadith match the inimitability of the Qur'an? Strawman fallacy again and again and again.

The Qur'an itself does not stop short like you did what obedience to Allah, but it speaks of obedience to Allah AND HIS MESSENGER.

Red-herring. Who doesn't blindly follow God once they are convinced of His reality? Who doesn't blindly follow the messenger of God once they are convinced of the veracity of his prophethood?

I'll ignore your earlier lachrymose ramble; if you have any logical arguments or objections bring them forward. If not, don't waste peoples' time.

:w:

he was directing that at me, not u

:sl:

[AceOfHearts]

:sl:

Petitio principii. The Qur'an says that those who reject the revelation are disbelievers, you assume that revelation refers exclusively to the Qur'an, a claim which was definitively debunked in this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/525614-post153.html
After which you tried to retract your statement but only magnified the blunder; see here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/528430-post174.html

No it was not debunked. We were talking about the word 'zikr' there and I did not retract any statements, but clarified one. You continue to misunderstand my words when I have already explained your misunderstanding in one of my earlier posts.

Do you really think that the "ayahs of Allah", as used in the Qur'anic verses in my previous post, are referring to the Prophet's everyday speech?

Peace.

[lolwatever]

Do you really think that the "ayahs of Allah", as used in the Qur'anic verses in my previous post, are referring to the Prophet's everyday speech?

the same tongue that delivered hadith was the same one that delivered the quran, not? :X

and if the prophet was wrong when he asked us to follow his commands, why was no verse revealed in quran that counteracted his claim? If you think the prophet might hav hid those verses away, why didn't he do likewise for the verses that corrected the prophet on even more private matters (e.g. the case of zaynab divorcing zayd etc). Further more, in surat an najm it says 'and verily he is not talking from whims/desire, rather it is reveleation that is revealed' (verse 2)

Where is the evidence to suggest it's only pertaining to quranic verses and not hadith to do with islam ?

paragraph by paragraph response please.

take carea ll the best :)
salams

[^..sTr!vEr..^]

V neva said prophet was wrong!! but did u give a thought to this that there r people who say prophet wasnt the last of messengers ..similarly cant there b people to make chages in hadiths???..Allah never said he wud take care of all those Hadeeths as well..

[lolwatever]

V neva said prophet was wrong!! but did u give a thought to this that there r people who say prophet wasnt the last of messengers ..similarly cant there b people to make chages in hadiths???..Allah never said he wud take care of all those Hadeeths as well..

But he did promise to protect his message. And that's through methods of authentication and verification that where developed and successfully applied for centuries till this day.

If you want to prove that something is classified as authentic is contradiction with the quran, you need to provide examples of authentic hadiths that do this.

If you accept that the prophet wasn't wrong, then the issue isn't in hadiths, it's to do with how you verify them, and your doubting of the methods of verification, in which case.. you need to explain to us how they are flawed :)

take care salams :)

[------]

Allah swt says in the Qur'an:

He will set right your deeds for you, and will forgive you
your sins. And whoso obeys Allah and His Messenger
(SAW) has achieved great success.
33:71

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

No it was not debunked. We were talking about the word 'zikr' there and I did not retract any statements, but clarified one. You continue to misunderstand my words when I have already explained your misunderstanding in one of my earlier posts.

You initially said dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an, and then you conceded that this was false. Quod erat demonstratum.

Do you really think that the "ayahs of Allah", as used in the Qur'anic verses in my previous post, are referring to the Prophet's everyday speech?

8/10 of the verses you posted say 'revelations' or what 'God has sent down'. This applies to both revelations in word and meaning (Qur'an) and revelations in meaning (Sunnah).

[ameen]

Here is proof of the Prophet's saws independent capacity of religious directives:

48:18 Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad SAW) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory,

Here the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet not directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge on this occasion. When the Prophet saws recieved news that 'Uthman rd may have been killed by the Quraysh he decided to take this pledge from the muslims, and yet he made this decision and the surah about Hudaybiyyah (Fath) was revealed after.

salam,

Firstly, this verse is not praising the Prophet for any decision that he may have made on his own; rather, it is praising the BELIEVERS for giving their pledge (bai'ah) for Jihad. The verse clearly states:

'Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their pledge to you...' - (48:18)

Secondly, even if the verse was praising the Prophet for taking their pledge, he would be rightly praised, because the giving - and hence taking - of the pledge is in-fact praised by Allah in the Qur'an itself. If you read that whole Surah, you will see clearly that Allah did actually enjoin the pledge:

'Verily, those who give their pledge (bai'ah) to you, they are giving their pledge to Allah. Allah's Hand is over their hands. Then whosoever breaks their pledge, breaks it only to his own harm ; and whosoever fulfils their pledge with Allah, then Allah will grant them a great reward.' - (48:10)

Therefore, when the believers came to the Prophet to give their pledge, of-course he would not refuse to take their pledge, because Allah had encouraged him to take them in the Qur'an. This means that your statement above is actually not true, when you said: '..the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet no directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge..'

Please stop trying to deceive people into your sectarian beliefs. The Clock is still ticking, and we are still waiting for you to show us a single verse from the Qur'an which makes the Hadith sacred and authoritative.

wsalam

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Eh i saw plenty, dont know why its been overlooked....:?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
First of all, to those who haven't noticed, ameen is note responding to my last post. In fact, he has ignored the post ENTIRELY! Here is that post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/567539-post303.html

So if ameen is not continuing this discussion in a coherent fashion (i.e. response-counter response- counter counter response, etc.) the question is...what is ameen responding to??

The answer is that ameen is responding to HALF of one of my points in a post from 4 weeks ago. Yes, that's right, only HALF of a point. In order for ameen to feign a response, he needs to cut a very carefully selected fragment out of its larger context in my post and then respond to that. So here is the post that he is cutting this quote from:

:sl: Ameen,

This thread is debating the authority of Hadith as a source of Divine Law in Islam. You are yet to prove, USING THE HOLY QUR'AN, that Allah has given the Hadith such Divine authority.

First of all, why are you selectively responding to my post?? I said A LOT MORE in response to that claim of yours and you only quoted ONE of my points and omitted ALL the others! WHY? You can't respond to my points on Usûl? Here they are AGAIN:

This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!

Stop ignoring this point. Do not respond to my arguments selectively quoting 1 piece here and there so you can respond easier.

Secondly, I expected this objection on your part to my citation of the narration. The problem with your position is, when we go on quoting what has been reported of the sahâba's understanding of this verse, and then those after them and then those after them - you claim that they didn't understand the verse this way. So at which point did the entire Muslim ummah suddenly change and start reinterpreting the verse?? Even hadith-rejectors are not rash enough to claim that their views are the traditional views. They KNOW that the acceptance of the hadith and the interpretation of these verses in this manner is the way of the millions of Muslim scholars for almost 1 and a half millenia! Hadith-rejectors know this, they just claim that this traditional view is wrong, as you yourself have said only three posts ago.

This verse, which you think proves the authority of Hadith, says that the Prophet is the 'judge in disputes between the people.'

So like Companion, when you realize your previous claims have all been crushed, you move on to making new claims about a new verse!

This verse states that the Prophet saws was the judge in all the dispute of the people, every dispute they had was to be referred back to him. It is impossible for someone to claim that this referred only to the Qur'an since the verdicts about all the disputes of the people are not included in the Qur'an. This verse commands people to defer such affairs to the Prophet as the Qâdî, in whatever disputes they have including social and societal affairs. This verse cannot possibly be restricted to the Qur'an since it tells the Prophet saws "and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions" and yet the Qur'an is not a compendium of decisions on societal affairs! The language of this verse clearly establishes the Prophet saws as one in whom divine authority has been vested to issue rulings and one who must be obeyed as we also saw with the verse from surah Hashr which I cleared of your feeble response. For the compelte linguistic analysis of this verse refer to Al-Bahr Al-Muhît.

Here is proof of the Prophet's saws independent capacity of religious directives:

48:18 Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad SAW) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory,

Here the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet not directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge on this occasion. When the Prophet saws recieved news that 'Uthman rd may have been killed by the Quraysh he decided to take this pledge from the muslims, and yet he made this decision and the surah about Hudaybiyyah (Fath) was revealed after.

There are other verses which refer to the Qur'an as the response to the intellectual disputes of the various religious groups of the time, but they do not make reference to the Prophet's decisions. ALL of the Prophet's decrees are to be accepted as Allah swt negates the faith of anyone who rejects the decrees of the Prophet saws. The Prophet's teachings are the judge for us in all matters in our life, we are to accept his sunnah fully and completely.

Also, Companion and Ameen, stop ignoring the challenges that Ahmed and I have been repeating to you. You keep trying to give your imaginative 'tafseer' on different verses while skirting our arguments and challenges.

:w:

Interestingly enough, four weeks ago I was taking him to task for the same thing. Notice above I challenge him on why he is selectively responding to my posts. Also in the above post, what are we discussing? An ayat from Surah Al-Hashr proving the authority of the sunnah. Ameen tried to respond by cutting out only a part of my post, so in the post above I expose his tactic and show the part of the post that he ignored (in brown). He never responded.

Now he comes up with the same question of which verses from the Qur'an confer authority on the sunnah - is that not dishonest for him to conceal what I already provided and ignore it completely and then repeat the same question? Of course it is dishonest and deceitful, but that is exactly ameen's only hope in this debate. I have been quite open in this debate going through the posts of my opponents thoroghly and examining each point one by one. Ameen, on the other hand, ignores entire posts and disects a comment from one of my previous posts before he is able to respond to it. So everyone can clearly see who is the real perpetrator of deceit in this debate.

So what was the context to the comment ameen quotes? If you look at the post I quoted above, we were arguing IN THE CONTEXT OF VERSE 4:65. Ameen claimed that when it said for believers to accept all the judgements of the Prophet Muhammad saws in their disputes, ameen claimed that all such judgements were found in the Qur'an so the verse is just redundantly stating to accept the Qur'an.

I refuted this claim of his by pointing out the treaty of hudaybiyyah - here we have a clear example of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh making a judgement in response to the dispute over the Qurayshi position. The Prophet pbuh called all the believers to take the oath under the tree and they all obeyed him as Allah swt commands. And to prove that this decision was correct I quoted the verse from the Qur'an where Allah swt endorsed the judgement of the Prophet saws.

Now with THIS context in mind, let's proceed to see what ameen has now written:

you will see clearly that Allah did actually enjoin the pledge:

You just PROVED my point! Here we have an obvious example of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh making a decision which you admit that Allah enjoined even though this decision is not in the Qur'an!! Ayat 4:65 tells the believers to accept the decisions of the Prophet saws in ALL their disputes and you initially erroneously claimed that this just refers to accepting the decrees in the Qur'an. But we have in the treaty of hudaybiyyah a case where the decision was NOT in the Qur'an but was still "ENJOINED BY ALLAH" - by your own testimony!

So, either you find it impossible to keep track of this discussion or you are just really good at refuting yourself!

This means that your statement above is actually not true, when you said: '..the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet no directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge..'

Please stop trying to deceive people into your sectarian beliefs.

THis is your only response to what you quoted from me? You have no rational objections? Just the ad hominem of "stop trying to decieve people" ?? SHOW ME where is the Qur'an the directive is from the Prophet pbuh to take this pledge from the believers. If you can find no such directive then you concede to the fact that Allah ENJOINED (your word!) commands that the Prophet pbuh conveyed to the people which they had to accept though such injunctions were not found in the Qur'an. In short, you have conceded the authority of the sunnah thus answering your own question:

show us a single verse from the Qur'an which makes the Hadith sacred and authoritative.

As everyone can see now, not only have I shown you such verses but you have yourself conceded the arguments!


To summarize the argument of hudaybiyyah for those who are having difficulty following this long drawn-out discussion: there is no directive in the Qur'an for the Prophet pbuh to take the pledge of hudaybiyyah. Yet this was something enjoined by Allah swt and something that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did and all the believers obeyed him in this. And their complete obedience to him was praised in the Qur'an and the pledge itself was endorsed. So the Prophet Muhammad pbuh clearly has divine authority vested in him to make such decisions as He is inspired by Allah swt. So the claim that the Qur'an is the only authority falls flat on its face since the Prophet pbuh had the authority to take the pledge at hudaybiyyah even though there was no command in the Qur'an for him or for the believers to do so. In conclusion, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is an authority in this religion as he is inspired by Allah swt and his verdicts and teachings are only the truth. Therefore, no believer can deny the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad saws.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
In my last post I showed how the hadith-rejectors have abandoned complete responses entirely and instead of contributing anything to the discussion they cut out carefully selected small snippets from a comment and then feign a response to that and repeat the exact same claims that were debunked before. Just in this thread we had to post from kadafi's Ahadeeth Myths almost a dozen times and people still kept ignoring it and repeating the same claims without providing any criticism on the article whatsoever. Its fine for someone to voice their opinion, but in a discussion when someone responds to that it is expected that you will provide at least some for of criticism to the response. If you just repeat your original comments again, that is not a dialogue, that is a monologue!

After 330 posts and the failure of 5 hadith-rejectors to answer the arguments, it is clear that this thread isn't going anywhere. We've given ample opportunity for people to formulate some coherent arguments to support their view but instead they play games by quoting bits and pieces here and there and repeating the same material over and over. With such an attitude it is clear that the discussion is never going to get anywhere. In a debate it is expected that you critically analyze the views of your opponent; simply repeating material is what we call argumentum ad nauseum.

This is exactly what happens with anti-islamists. They come on the forum solely with the intention to slander the Qur'an and the Prophet, they don't listen to any responses and just comment on what is most convenient for them, and so within a short period of time they wind-up banned.

There was a question regarding one member who was banned yesterday - he was banned because he stopped talking about the topic of this thread entirely and went into a long emotional tirade about how he didn't like the antagonstic approach towards him. I'm sorry but if you can't emotionally tolerate your claims being subjected to vigorous criticism, then perhaps factual debate is not for you. Read the title of this thread: this is a debate on hadith, not a debate on why you thought the admin was hostile. If you have personal issues like that then use pm. That's what it says in the rules. You chose the wrong outlet to vent your frustration and you suffered the consequences.

:w:

:threadclo