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samobosna96
05-28-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam,

I don't believe in Hadiths. I believe that you are not suppose to kill any apostate. The Quran talks clearly about the Apostate and no where does it say to kill them. THere is no compulsion in Islam at all. And I don't believe that anyone is "betraying" the Muslim community by no longer believing Islam.

How can we ever kill someone because of their own religious beliefs? How can we force them to believe in God? How can we force them believe in what you may believe?

salaam

IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HADITH YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM. The Quran sayis you must obey God and the Messenger, therefore as a Muslim you have an obligation to believe in sound authentic hadith. Why dont you go join the International Submitters or whatever the followers of Rashid Khilafah call themselves, either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR!

And yes Muslims are to kill those who first believe in the oneness of God then do not believe in the Oneness of God. This is apart of Islam just like it is in Judaism and Christianity whether you like it or not.

but in islam those who have no compulsion are those outside of Islam, the people of the book and the kafars. those who leave islam have been infected with a disease of the heart and mind injected by secular materialist ideologies and powers.
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samobosna96
05-28-2006, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam,

I don't believe in Hadiths. I believe that you are not suppose to kill any apostate. The Quran talks clearly about the Apostate and no where does it say to kill them. THere is no compulsion in Islam at all. And I don't believe that anyone is "betraying" the Muslim community by no longer believing Islam.

How can we ever kill someone because of their own religious beliefs? How can we force them to believe in God? How can we force them believe in what you may believe?

salaam

oh yeah by the way if you dont believe in hadith, how do you pray? you cant practice islam without the hadith.
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al-fateh
05-28-2006, 03:43 PM
Why do some people completely reject hadith?

i am wondering why? they only go by what the Quran says. and conclude that all what the prophet said along from Bukhari and the rest as fabricated
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 04:10 PM
---

the Prophet (saw) said "follow the Quran and my sunnah" and in hadiths we learn bout his sunnah,

also the hadiths explain the Quran, i.e - in bukhari you have a whole chapter explaining the quran and the virtues of reading it!!

but one reason why people reject it, its because many people follow hadiths & 4get d Quran,
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softmind82
05-28-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
---
the Prophet (saw) said "follow the Quran and my sunnah" and in hadiths we learn bout his sunnah,

also the hadiths explain the Quran, i.e - in bukhari you have a whole chapter explaining the quran and the virtues of reading it!!

but one reason why people reject it, its because many people follow hadiths & 4get d Quran,
Agree with you ,
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 04:34 PM
Salaam Samobosna96,

Originally Posted by samobosna96
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HADITH YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM.

And please give me the Quran verse that states that in order to be a Muslim you must believe in hadiths (the ones recorded by Muslim and Buhkari, etc). Please give me the Quran verse. Please give me the Quran verse that talks about Buhkari and the others that have recorded hadiths. With all due respect, where have these people been mentioned in the QUran? Who has given them authority? Does God speak of them?

But anyways... all that I really would like is the Quran verse that states in order to be a Muslim you must believe in the hadiths recoreded years after the Prophet's death.


The Quran sayis you must obey God and the Messenger, therefore as a Muslim you have an obligation to believe in sound authentic hadith.

Of course we must obey the Messenger. I totally agree.

But like at what you are saying "authentic". Why would God leave it up to us to decide what is authentic and what is not authentic? See there are "fabricated" hadiths and "authentic" hadiths, who are we to decide what is authentic and what is not? What you going to do if there was a hadith that was acutally "authentic" but yet people labeled it as "fabricated"? What if God questioned you on that? What are you going to say? Why not just accept all of the hadiths??

Why dont you go join the International Submitters or whatever the followers of Rashid Khilafah call themselves, either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR!

Excuse me but why exactly are you so hostile? Who teaches you to be hostile exactly? You should be more respectful in your tone. I'm not an International Submitter nor do I follow Rashid Khalifah.


And again, please give me the Quran verse that states that those who do not believe in hadiths (the ones recorded by Buhkari, etc) are nonbelievers? The Quran tells me what a believer is, and I don't remember reading that.


And yes Muslims are to kill those who first believe in the oneness of God then do not believe in the Oneness of God. This is apart of Islam just like it is in Judaism and Christianity whether you like it or not.

But it is definitly not in the Quran, that is for sure. It is your "authentic" hadiths that have been declared authentic by man.

If you'd really like to go into this discussion you should start another thread, I don't wish to hijack the original posters thread.
salaam
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Salaam Samobosna96,

Originally Posted by samobosna96
oh yeah by the way if you dont believe in hadith, how do you pray? you cant practice islam without the hadith.
There are verses in the Quran that talk about salat and how to perform it.

But anyways, do you even know what hadiths say about salat? There isn't a hadith that specifically talks about how to make salat the whole way through. Rathar there is a compilation of hadiths that tell you what to do... But even these hadiths do not tell you how to do it step for step, in what order... it's just puzzled together.

salaam
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Salaam Al-Fateh,

I can't speak for all, but I can tell you personally why I have rejected hadiths.
There are a number of reasons of course.

For one thing I do not believe that the Quran tells us to follow hadiths. I also do not believe that God would leave us (human beings) to sort through all of the so called saying of the Messenger and leave it up to us to decide what is fabricated and what is not fabricated. Just don't believe that at all.

Also there are plenty of hadiths that contradict eachother... and many people have their own version of the same hadiths aswell. Also there are many hadiths that even contradict the Quran.

Also this is word of mouth. This is what people have said other people said about the Messenger... who are we to take their word for it?

But anyways, it all goes back to the Quran. I've never read of Buhkari in the Quran. I've never read that there are other books to be followed aswell. Nope, not at all. And you've never read of this in the Quran aswell.

salaam
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Muhammad
05-28-2006, 06:08 PM
:sl:

Please see the following, you will find many Qur'an verses there:

http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...nah-islam.html

And please keep this thread respectful Insha'Allaah.
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ISDhillon
05-28-2006, 06:22 PM
I agree with boistop, well said:) I dont believe you need to refer to anything except god through koran only.
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 06:34 PM
Salaam,

Those verses only speak of the Messenger and obeying him. I don't disagree with obeying the Messenger. What I disagree with are the hadiths that claim to be the sayings and actions of the Prophets. Prove to me how those hadiths are mandated in the Quran... prove to me how God mandated those things. You can find plenty of verse speaking of the Messenger, but which ones do you get the belief that hadiths are given authority and are meant to be followed.

Do you honestly believe that GOd has left us to sort out which hadiths are fabricated and which are not???

salaam
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 06:36 PM
Salaam,

Also the link that I was referred to went about calling hadiths the sayings and actions of the Messenger. Don't you know that even the Quran refers to itself as a hadith????

salaam
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam,

Those verses only speak of the Messenger and obeying him. I don't disagree with obeying the Messenger. What I disagree with are the hadiths that claim to be the sayings and actions of the Prophets. Prove to me how those hadiths are mandated in the Quran... prove to me how God mandated those things. You can find plenty of verse speaking of the Messenger, but which ones do you get the belief that hadiths are given authority and are meant to be followed.

Do you honestly believe that GOd has left us to sort out which hadiths are fabricated and which are not???

salaam

sister, if your heart doesnt believe a certain hadiths, then dont follow it :) cos d hearts always rite blud!!

some ppl reject hadiths cos dey dnt like wot it says, i.e - some ppl say listenin 2 music isnt mentioned in d quran, but in hadiths it is mentioned, so cos its not mentioned directly in quran its k, but it isn!!! i tink sum ppl reject hadiths bcos dey wana change d religion 2 suit dem :)
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x Maz x
05-28-2006, 06:43 PM
For one thing I do not believe that the Quran tells us to follow hadiths. I also do not believe that God would leave us (human beings) to sort through all of the so called saying of the Messenger and leave it up to us to decide what is fabricated and what is not fabricated. Just don't believe that at all.
Ya wah??...The Prophet [Pbuh] was chosen by Allah to be the recipient of His final revelation to mankind. Ofcourse, without doubt the Quran is the the centrepiece in a Muslim's life. The message is the Quran, which shows us the basic requirements and laws by thy Lord and the Messenger being the person showing us how to implement/enact these requirements. We are told in the Quran that the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] did not speak of his own desires:

"By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being mislead, nor does he say [anything] of his [own] desire. It is no less than an inspiration sent down to him" [Surah an-Najm 53:1-4]

All of his utterances and his sunnah was divinely inspired. He spoke nothing of his own desire except what Allah [SWT] has asked of him, to spread His message.

Also there are plenty of hadiths that contradict eachother... and many people have their own version of the same hadiths aswell. Also there are many hadiths that even contradict the Quran.
Isit where? provide evidence for it please...Hadith are classified according to reliability and authinicity..Everyone has their own interpreation hence the several divisions in our society but that can be based on the Quran aswell...

Also this is word of mouth. This is what people have said other people said about the Messenger... who are we to take their word for it?
No they were the utterences/occurances of the Prophet [Pbuh] recorded by pious devout Muslims..these were some poeple who loved the Prophet dearly...

"The Prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves" [Surah Al-Ahzab [33:6]


SubhanAllah, they clearly had much love for the Prophet [Pbuh] and they would not base his words and record it on fabricated lies...May Allah bless their souls and give all of them high ranks in Jannnah as He has promised and Verily Allah never breaks His promise..


But anyways, it all goes back to the Quran. I've never read of Buhkari in the Quran. I've never read that there are other books to be followed aswell. Nope, not at all. And you've never read of this in the Quran aswell.
The Quran sends the basic outlines of how to become a good Muslim and the hadeeth and Sunnah shows how to put it into practice..Whether you disregard them; your final judgment is from Allah but i sincerely advise you to think twice before making such a decision...The Prophet [Pbuh] only spoke of what Allah had asked of him...

The Prophet [Pbuh] declared in his farewell address: "Convey to others even if it is a single verse from me"...

Peace x
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 06:46 PM
sister bus stop can i ask ya, do u reject hadiths then? :)

n heavyyy sis maz i woz jus gona say dat :embarrass :p
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Woodrow
05-28-2006, 06:49 PM
To those that were born into Islam, the Hadeeth is a very natural part of Islam. To those of us who are newbies, initialy the Hadeeth are very confusing.

Keep in mind with many of us newbies, we do not even know or even heard of the Hadeeth until we have been Muslim for a while.

Be patient with those of us who are mere babies in Islam. We are newborns into the true world. Give us time to learn and understand. With a baby you do not expect them to know what an encyclopedia is when they first begin to talk. They have to take first steps.

To those that are more knowledgabel in Islam, please help us newbies by stating the Hadeeth, but do not stop with just quoting a line give us reference as to why and how it came about, why we know it is true.

It is frustrating to be a guiding parent, under the best of conditions. If you are a person blessed with knowledge in Islam, it also gives you responsibility. Your role becomes like that of a guiding parent. But, this is a little more difficult, as now your "children" may be older then you and can be very stubborn. Teach and guide us with love, patience and understanding.
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x Maz x
05-28-2006, 06:55 PM
"By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being mislead, nor does he say [anything] of his [own] desire. It is no less than an inspiration sent down to him" [Surah an-Najm 53:1-4]

Hadith is the utterances occurances etc of the Prophet [Pbuh] as we have acknowledged, upon readin this i was shocked...How can one deny that the Prophet spoke of great wisdom, consequently written and compiled into a book??..
That is how the Quran came about did it not?...the Prophet [Pbuh] memorised the verses and it was written by the Sahabah...is someone to deny that aswell? Yeesh

Lol course ya were chacha_ jalebi, twas on the tip of yo toungye/keyboard eh eh eh
Peace x
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 07:30 PM
Salaam x Maz x,

Originally Posted by x Maz x
Ya wah??...The Prophet [Pbuh] was chosen by Allah to be the recipient of His final revelation to mankind.

See this another thing about hadiths that really urks me. Alot of times those who are into hadith are very in love with the Messenger a whole lot. They can quote the hadiths like crazy, but can't quote the Quran like crazy aswell. But even more, their love for the MEssenger is quite evident in the way that they speak.

You put a blessing behind the Prophet's name, but you do not put anytype of blessing when you mention God.

Seriously, values seem to be shifted.

The message is the Quran, which shows us the basic requirements and laws by thy Lord and the Messenger being the person showing us how to implement/enact these requirements.

Surah 18:54
We have explained in detail in this Quran for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.


We are told in the Quran that the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] did not speak of his own desires:

"By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being mislead, nor does he say [anything] of his [own] desire. It is no less than an inspiration sent down to him" [Surah an-Najm 53:1-4]

I don't accuse the Messenger of speaking out of his own desire.

What I believe is that these hadiths are not from the Messenger at all.


Isit where? provide evidence for it please...Hadith are classified according to reliability and authinicity..Everyone has their own interpreation hence the several divisions in our society but that can be based on the Quran aswell...
I won't quote the hadiths becauase then it would cause a sect argument and we're not suppose to talk about sects here.



No they were the utterences/occurances of the Prophet [Pbuh] recorded by pious devout Muslims..these were some poeple who loved the Prophet dearly...

And please give me the verse in the Quran that talks about them and how they are suppose to record his sayings down.

And again, you have absoloutly no proof that these sayings are really what they had said. None at all. You rely on man to confirm your faith.


SubhanAllah, they clearly had much love for the Prophet [Pbuh] and they would not base his words and record it on fabricated lies..

But obviously that must be the case since there are "weak" hadiths and "strong" hadiths. If that wasn't the case then all "hadiths" would be accpeted correct? Yes. So your idea that becuase such and such may have loved him so much and thereofre never lie on him has been proven false. Becuase agian if that was the case, all "hadiths" will be authentic, and there would be no such thing as "fabricated" hadiths in the first place. No need for a "science" on hadith and people going about to check the authentication. Right? Yes. But obviously there is.


The Quran sends the basic outlines of how to become a good Muslim and the hadeeth and Sunnah shows how to put it into practice..

You keep saying "basic". The Quran clearly says that it explains everything in detail. There's nothing "basic" about it.


salaam
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 07:38 PM
Salaam x Maz x,
Originally Posted by x Maz x
"By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being mislead, nor does he say [anything] of his [own] desire. It is no less than an inspiration sent down to him" [Surah an-Najm 53:1-4]

Again, this verse does not establish that hadiths are too be followed. Neither does it establish the authenticity of them aswell.

Hadith is the utterances occurances etc of the Prophet [Pbuh] as we have acknowledged,


And they were written down years after the Messenger's death. Even more, isn't there a hadith that even says that the Messenger demanded that people not record what he is saying??? Yes.

And hadiths are not the utterance orccursance of the Prophet. What they are are sayings of people who claim that the Messenger said and did such and such.


upon readin this i was shocked...How can one deny that the Prophet spoke of great wisdom, consequently written and compiled into a book??..

Please quote the Quran verse that goes about and demands that people do this?? PLease quote the Quran that talks about folllowing the haidths that Buhkari had written. PLease quote them.

What verse in the Quran tells you to follow these hadiths???

The Quran tells you that it is clear and in detailed. The Quran even says that the Quran is the only thing divinly inpsired to the Messenger.


That is how the Quran came about did it not?...the Prophet [Pbuh] memorised the verses and it was written by the Sahabah...is someone to deny that aswell? Yeesh
Please not that Bukhari was not apart of the MEssenger's Sahabah.


salaam
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 07:43 PM
sista busstop so do u reject hadiths?
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 07:49 PM
Salaam Woodrow,

Originally Posted by Woodrow
To those that were born into Islam, the Hadeeth is a very natural part of Islam. To those of us who are newbies, initialy the Hadeeth are very confusing.

Keep in mind with many of us newbies, we do not even know or even heard of the Hadeeth until we have been Muslim for a while.

There are many born and raised Muslims who reject hadiths, myself being one of them. Yes, accepting hadiths is very natural if you blindly follow and refuse to find the authority of hadiths in the Quran. But once you start reading and start asking questions like:

1.) Who is Bukhari and gave him authority?
2.) If hadiths are divine, why are their fabricated ones?
3.) If hadiths are divine, why not folllow all of them?
4.) Why are there are hadiths that contradict the QuraN/
5.) Why are the hadiths that contradict the Quran, sometimes considered to have aborgated the Quran?
6.) Why would God leave men to sort out the weak and strong haidths?
7.) Where does the Quran establish hadiths?
8.) If the Quran was the only thing inspired to the Messenger, then why are there other books to follow?


Things become complicated and you realize that something is awfully wrong. Especially when people can only say that the Messenger does not speak from his own deisre.

salaam
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 07:50 PM
My name is not BUSstop. Didn't I just tell you about mocking or was the someone else???

salaam
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
There are many born and raised Muslims who reject hadiths, myself being one of them. salaam
so u reject hadiths?

can i ask u do u belive dat d dajjal will come? :)

sowy sis boi stop sowwy lol
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x Maz x
05-28-2006, 07:58 PM
See this another thing about hadiths that really urks me. Alot of times those who are into hadith are very in love with the Messenger a whole lot. They can quote the hadiths like crazy, but can't quote the Quran like crazy aswell. But even more, their love for the MEssenger is quite evident in the way that they speak.

You put a blessing behind the Prophet's name, but you do not put anytype of blessing when you mention God.

Seriously, values seem to be shifted.


Whats that gotta do wit hadiths? That is the peoples mentality, I havent come accross any hadith sayin 'memorise this and dont learnt the Quran'...there is no competition between the hadith and Quran, they both compliment eachother..

What I believe is that these hadiths are not from the Messenger at all.
LOOOOOOOOOL *DEEEEEEP BREATH*...who are they from? Me?

And again, you have absoloutly no proof that these sayings are really what they had said. None at all. You rely on man to confirm your faith.

Whats gwanin?? Ya gonna deny the existance of the Sahabah nex aswell?? My 'proof' is tha fact that i have faith that the Prophet had companions who recorded his sayings :)

But obviously that must be the case since there are "weak" hadiths and "strong" hadiths. If that wasn't the case then all "hadiths" would be accpeted correct? Yes. So your idea that becuase such and such may have loved him so much and thereofre never lie on him has been proven false. Becuase agian if that was the case, all "hadiths" will be authentic, and there would be no such thing as "fabricated" hadiths in the first place. No need for a "science" on hadith and people going about to check the authentication. Right? Yes. But obviously there is.

Oh dear, mis-conceptions left right and centre *eyes rolly*...have a look at the definitions of the words :) Might help your clouded mind
Sahih [Correct]: a hadith narraated by people well known for their integrity of charachter, learning and memory and which also has a continuos chain of reliable insad -In its class, it is the most reliable hadith

Hasan [Accepted]: A hadith similar to sahih hadith but narrated by people who are lsihgtly less reputed for their intergrity of character, learning or memory- It is also a reliable hadith but occupies a position next to that of sahih

Dha'eef [weak]: A hadith narrated by peopl whose characters are not well known or a hadith which has defects in its sanad - In its class, it occupies a position next to that of hasan.


I suggest you reserch the whole topic of ilm al -hadith InshAllah...

I won't quote the hadiths becauase then it would cause a sect argument and we're not suppose to talk about sects here.
So in other words you have no sufficient evidence to back your claim *eyes rolly*

Again, this verse does not establish that hadiths are too be followed. Neither does it establish the authenticity of them aswell.

We are going in circles really arent we...*eyes rolly*

And they were written down years after the Messenger's death. Even more, isn't there a hadith that even says that the Messenger demanded that people not record what he is saying??? Yes.

And hadiths are not the utterance orccursance of the Prophet. What they are are sayings of people who claim that the Messenger said and did such and such


No they were written and compiled in books regardin their autnicity and classified according to how reliable they were AFTER the Prophet [Pbuh] but were written at the time of the event...
Well everyones entitled to their opnion *eyes rolly*
Quotes for that claim please :)

Let me research more inshAllah and provide you with evidence concerning this matter...Have saabr...as stated in hadith or will you not do that? Peac x




You keep saying "basic". The Quran clearly says that it explains everything in detail. There's nothing "basic" about it.

No, the Prophet guided the people at that time but also showed them how to enact his message and put them into practice
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 08:06 PM
BRAP BRAP

*salutes 2 sista maz* (i told her wot 2 write) lol:p


sister boistop come on man, we know that RasoolAllah (saw) actually told Hadhrat Amr Ibn Al Aas (ra) 2 write down wot he was sayin, so he could tell it 2 others wen he went 4 da'wah. also in the Quran it says

"obey God and His messenger" - surah al ahzab

& der r bare verses in d quran which say obey d messenger (saw)

n d people dat narrated these hadiths are mainly sahaba, we hav Hadhrat Aisha (ra) who narrated over 1000 hadiths, also Abu Huraira (ra) narrated many hadiths, do do you tink these sahaba could tell a lie? NO DEY CANT

not all hadiths are authentic... agreed, dats y dey r classified in 2 3 categories of sahih, hasan n dhaeef,

also theres a HADITHS, which is sahih, n on top of that its narrated by Abu Huraira (ra) a sahabi, so i tink dat makes it 100% accurate... look

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I said to Allah's Apostle "I hear many narrations (Hadiths) from you but I forget them." Allah's Apostle said, "Spread your Rida' (garment)." I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something (and emptied them in my Rida') and then said, "Take and wrap this sheet over your body." I did it and after that I never
forgot any thing

its related in Bukhari in book number 1, hadiths 120 i tink, but anyway it proves dat RasoolAllah (saw) didnt stop him from narratin his sayings & he encouraged him 2 do so :)
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Looking4Peace
05-28-2006, 08:07 PM
There are plenty of Muslims who dont pay much mind to the hadith and as woodrow says mainly new converts. When i first reverted I did not want to follow it, this was because some of the things were very difficult for me as being new in Islam. I have now started to pick it up again. Again just as i stated in other posts it is wrong to say someone is not Muslim. That is not your place or job.
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x Maz x
05-28-2006, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
BRAP BRAP

*salutes 2 sista maz* (i told her wot 2 write) lol:p


sister boistop come on man, we know that RasoolAllah (saw) actually told Hadhrat Amr Ibn Al Aas (ra) 2 write down wot he was sayin, so he could tell it 2 others wen he went 4 da'wah. also in the Quran it says

"obey God and His messenger" - surah al ahzab

& der r bare verses in d quran which say obey d messenger (saw)

LOL!...Yeh he did ...let him take the credit, needs all de popularity he can get :okay:

Yup aggreed...
:offended: U dun beleive in the hadith :( Peace x
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chacha_jalebi
05-28-2006, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by x Maz x
LOL!...Yeh he did ...let him take the credit, needs all de popularity he can get :okay:
sister :( lol


sis boistop look @ me post i edited it, and added somemore stuff in, i tink u sudnt go round sayin hadiths sud b rejected, because u sed who gav Hadhrat Imam Bukhari (ra) d authority 2 write hadiths, well i ask :okay:

who gav u d authority 2 say hadiths r wrong?

RasoolAllah (saw) sed, "if u hear 1 thin from me narrate it forward" dats wot imam Bukhari (ra) was doin sis :)

i think u sud read more about islam, inshallah
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BoiStop
05-28-2006, 08:28 PM
Salaam x Maz x,


Originally Posted by x Maz x
Whats that gotta do wit hadiths? That is the peoples mentality, I havent come accross any hadith sayin 'memorise this and dont learnt the Quran'...there is no competition between the hadith and Quran, they both compliment eachother..
I was talking about a social issue dealing with hadiths.


LOOOOOOOOOL *DEEEEEEP BREATH*...who are they from? Me?
Why do you going about and mocking? That's haraam.

Anyways...

Of course you think that they are from the MEssenger. But I do not believe so. I believe that they are lies.

It's really hard talking to you when you insist on mocking. It's hard to take you seriously because you seem to add nothing to this debate by meaningless questions. Your questions offer no proof that they really are from the Messenger. So "LOL" all that you like... you still have not provided any evidence besides "His sahaba loved him" that they are really sayings of the MEssenger, and that his Sahaba really said those things.



My 'proof' is tha fact that i have faith that the Prophet had companions who recorded his sayings :)

But where did you get this faith from? Does the Quran tell you this? If so, where? Now you are using somehting besides the Quran to establish your faith!

Where in the Quran does it say that the Sahaba will do this??? Where does it demand them to do this? You have no source to back up your reason for having faith in them. The Quran definitly did not tell you this. You are putting your faith in the hands of man and calling their sayings "divine".

Do you not see how unexcusable your reasoning is?

I'm quite sure that even the scholars you look up to would take a double take on what you are saying. At least they would establish their position by using the Quran... Now you are completly setting up your faith without the need for Quran to tell you this. Wow.


Sahih [Correct]: a hadith narraated by people well known for their integrity of charachter, learning and memory and which also has a continuos chain of reliable insad -In its class, it is the most reliable hadith

Hasan [Accepted]: A hadith similar to sahih hadith but narrated by people who are lsihgtly less reputed for their intergrity of character, learning or memory- It is also a reliable hadith but occupies a position next to that of sahih

Dha'eef [weak]: A hadith narrated by peopl whose characters are not well known or a hadith which has defects in its sanad - In its class, it occupies a position next to that of hasan.



Look at what you just suggest Dha'eef is... WEAK. What do you think that means? Do you htink that it's accepted just as much as Sahih (correct)?



So in other words you have no sufficient evidence to back your claim *eyes rolly*

Gaber Ibn Abdullah said, " The messenger of God prohibited a man from crossing one leg over
the other while lying down on his back "


Ebada Ibn Tameem said , his father said that he saw the messenger of God lying down on his
back in the mosque while crossing his legs."

Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God said, "Do not drink while standing up, if someone forgot and did it, he should vomit what he drank."

Sahih Moslem

Ibn Abbas said, "The messenger of God drank from the water of Zamzam while standing up...." Sahih Moslem.

In Bukhary, vol.1

" There will not be on the surface of Earth after one hundred years, one newborn (or created) human being.


No they were written and compiled in books regardin their autnicity and classified according to how reliable they were AFTER the Prophet [Pbuh] but were written at the time of the even...

So you follow weak hadiths aswell??

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-28-2006, 08:30 PM
Salaam,

Again, can any of you all establish hadiths through the Quran? can of you?

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-28-2006, 08:40 PM
Salaam Alpha Dude,

Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Salam,
Why then do you believe in the Qur'an, it was passed on by the same people, no?

I don't believe the Quran was word of mouth. I believe that it was always written down whenever a verse was revealed. I also believe that God has protected it. There is nothing to establish hadiths from Quran.

salaam
Reply

x Maz x
05-28-2006, 08:47 PM
I was talking about a social issue dealing with hadiths.

Well you could have clarified this inshAllah, it would have helped but either way hadith are based upon Quranic teachings and either way are benficial to us beings :)

Why do you going about and mocking? That's haraam.

Anyways...

Of course you think that they are from the MEssenger. But I do not believe so. I believe that they are lies.

It's really hard talking to you when you insist on mocking. It's hard to take you seriously because you seem to add nothing to this debate by meaningless questions. Your questions offer no proof that they really are from the Messenger. So "LOL" all that you like... you still have not provided any evidence besides "His sahaba loved him" that they are really sayings of the MEssenger, and that his Sahaba really said those things.


I am sorry if i appeared somewhat mocking, i did not mean to question your intelligence God forbid, I was simply making a point that to me it seems so vivid and kinda funny :)
Did you not read the QURANIC verse about the Prophet [Pbuh] being closer to his companions then his ownself??

But where did you get this faith from? Does the Quran tell you this? If so, where? Now you are using somehting besides the Quran to establish your faith!

Where in the Quran does it say that the Sahaba will do this??? Where does it demand them to do this? You have no source to back up your reason for having faith in them. The Quran definitly did not tell you this. You are putting your faith in the hands of man and calling their sayings "divine".

Do you not see how unexcusable your reasoning is?

I'm quite sure that even the scholars you look up to would take a double take on what you are saying. At least they would establish their position by using the Quran... Now you are completly setting up your faith without the need for Quran to tell you this. Wow.


Okey I need you to answer me sumin' den i will respond to those rehtorical questions
1) How doya fink the Quran was compiled?
2) Do you think the Sahabah existed?



So you follow weak hadiths aswell??
No i take opionions from renowned scholars who have studied the hadith in depth and i base my final verdict after having looked at a collection of hadeeth inshAllah

Gaber Ibn Abdullah said, " The messenger of God prohibited a man from crossing one leg over
the other while lying down on his back "


Ebada Ibn Tameem said , his father said that he saw the messenger of God lying down on his
back in the mosque while crossing his legs."

Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God said, "Do not drink while standing up, if someone forgot and did it, he should vomit what he drank."



Post the sources and in what book of hadith they are found inshAllah :)
Peace x
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-28-2006, 09:00 PM
:sl:
Why do some people reject hadith? The answer is quite simple - ignorance. Hadith-rejectors are not scholars who have studied the sciences of Hadith and the meticulous system of classification behind them. They are laymen who have no education in Islamic sciences, come across some hadith that they don't understand or that seems problematic to them, and conseuqently they conclude "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be true!"

Originally Posted by BoiStop
And please give me the Quran verse that states that in order to be a Muslim you must believe in hadiths
The problem is you do not understand what the hadith and the hadith compilations are. The Qur'an commands us to follow the way of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and accept his teachings. In fact it negates the faith of anyone who fails to do so:

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
Please give me the Quran verse that talks about Buhkari and the others that have recorded hadiths. With all due respect, where have these people been mentioned in the QUran? Who has given them authority? Does God speak of them?
This is another one of your miscocneptions. We don't accept the hadith in Sahih Bukhari because they were compiled by Imaam Bukhari. We accept them because they have gone through the most rigorous process of authentication by the scholars, and the efforts of the Muslim scholars for over a millenia have confirmed their authenticity. You misunderstand the function of the compilers of hadith - they were collecting the hadith that had already been recorded and transmitted and after authenticating them included them in their collection. And the efforts of the hadith scholars were built on the efforts of those who preceded them and confirmed by the efforts of those who came after them. Why hasn't Sahih Ibn Hibban achieved the status of Sahih Bukhari? Was it because Imam Ibn Hibban was any less of a scholar? No, it is because the hadith in Sahih Ibn Hibban went through the authentication process and the scholars found some hadith to be inauthentic, so overall the compilation does not hold the same status as Sahih Bukhari which has unanimously been upheld to be completely authentic by the Muslim scholars.
...the hadiths recoreded years after the Prophet's death.
Myth. The hadith were recorded during the Prophet's lifetime by the companions; see br. kadafi's post here:
ALL MYTHS ABOUT AHADEETH DEBUNKED HERE
Why would God leave it up to us to decide what is authentic and what is not authentic?
He didn't leave it up to you - you don't understand the rigorous process behind the authentication of hadith because you have never studied that science. Yet for some reason you have the audacity to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of! Ahadith are not authenticated by some randomized process - the content as well as the chain of narration for each hadith is studied carefully to determine its authenticity, and this isn't done by just one scholar - this is the collective efforts of all the Muslim hadith scholars throughout Islamic history.

Another point - it is always amusing to note hadith rejectors says, "But some of these hadith contradict the Qur'an". They forget that one of the requirements for a hadith's authenticity is that it be in accordance with the Qur'an, so the scholars of hadith already checked that before passing their judgement on it. What a hadith rejector really means when they make such a comment is that the hadith contradicts their ill-informed and mistaken understanding of the Qur'an.

See the following thread where three hadith rejectors' arguments were utterly devastated:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ith-women.html
They made the claim that some authentic hadith contradicted the Qur'an, but they failed to provide even a single example to support their claim.

Prove to me how those hadiths are mandated in the Quran... prove to me how God mandated those things.
You're asking the wrong question. If we agree that God mandated for us to follow the Prophet pbuh, then the question should be whether these hadith are authentic in what they ascribe to the Prophet. By mandating obedience to the Prophet, God has mandated for us to follow all of the sayings and teachings of the Prophet which have been authentically transmitted to us.

Surah 18:54
We have explained in detail in this Quran for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.
If you think this verse is saying that there is no need for information beyond the Qur'an, then you haven't read the entire Qur'an:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

If al that we need was the verses of the Qur'an, then why would Allah swt ordain for the Prophet pbuh to explain what had been revealed? This clearly means that the explanations are themselves divinely ordained by Allah.

For more information, please refer to br. kadafi's post which concisely debunks the prevalent myths amongst hadith rejectors:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html

:w:
Reply

x Maz x
05-28-2006, 09:04 PM
Braaap Braaaaaap Braaaaaap Respect blessed Akhi!...Well said MashAllah :D Peace x
Reply

Sohrab
05-28-2006, 09:35 PM
>rule17

Sister Boistop!

My advice to you would be pray to Allah sincerely to give you Guidance. I'm sure if you ask for it sincerely, inshAllah it will help you a lot.

Well wisher
Reply

Looking4Peace
05-28-2006, 10:02 PM
When i first read the Qur'an i understoond much of it perfectly fine except for a few things here and there, it was when i read the hadith was when confusion set it. Moral of the story, reverts do not always understand it as easily opposed to people who were a Muslim from birth. I do not think its true that a person cannot understand one without the other, that was not my experience anyway.
Reply

Looking4Peace
05-28-2006, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Salam,
I think that if one were to reject the hadith and make their own interpretations on what the Qur'an says, then no doubt there will end up being large differences in terms of what is being practiced. These differences would, IMHO adversely affect the progress towards unity...


I agree to an extent , but just as you say without the hadith there will be large differences in terms of what is being practiced by muslims?
Doesnt this happen regardless just from simple interpretation differences by people everyday. Also how about cultural differences in how some muslims practice, for example some muslim countries still have barbaric practices that have nothing to do with Islam, but claim it does for their own agendas.
To put simply there will always be differences in how peopple understand something.
Reply

samobosna96
05-28-2006, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Crystal4Peace
There are plenty of Muslims who dont pay much mind to the hadith and as woodrow says mainly new converts. When i first reverted I did not want to follow it, this was because some of the things were very difficult for me as being new in Islam. I have now started to pick it up again. Again just as i stated in other posts it is wrong to say someone is not Muslim. That is not your place or job.

------ There is only one Islam and that is the Islam that there Prophet and his Companions were on, people who reject hadiths are far from the Islam of Prophet Muhammad. There are 73 sects and only one is saved, the People of the Sunnah.

------

Actually it is my place and job to tell you what you are saying is taking you out of the fold of Islam. As Muslims we check our ideas with other Muslims to make the sure the Shaytan is not perverting our Islam. Muslims have rights over other Muslims to make sure they are on the Islam of the Prophet and if that means I have to be blunt about it I'll do it. Although I will admit that it is better for a scholar to do since he has studied over 16 years to become a schlar but if I see something that is wrong like rejecting hadith I have a duty to make you aware of your innovation in religion.

You see the Prophet Muhammad came to fulfill the Prophet of Deutaronamy where every word and action would be written down. The Prphet is an example in word and deed. You need the hadith to implement Islam in your life and if you reject hadith then you have innovated your faith.

There is a science to the hadith Boistop which has been touched on by others through the character, his actions and past and so on. I cant remember this off by heart but I think it is narrated that Abu Hurayra came to get hadith from a man and by the way he treated his camel he refused to believe him. There are very sound methodolgies to understanding the compiliation of hadith and to reject them is to reject Islam as a whole. You cannot accept one aspect of Islam then refuse another, it is everything or nothing. Islam is a whole package. If a person were to refuse to believe in the Prophet hood of Jesus (AS) then he refuses to believe in the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), it is the same logic with the hadith.

The other Brothers and sisters have given you good verses where it is proven that you must obey the messenger ------. You must take the Quran and Sunnah to implement Islam thats plain and simple. We as Muslims do not have to read all the hadith to determine which ones are authentic or not the Prophets Companions have done it for us. Next your probably going to tell us that because Abu Bakr compiled the ayah of Quran into one Book the Quran is to be rejected too. The Prophet Muhammad didnt make the recitations into a book, it was Abu Bakr with the help of the head scrib, and later through Umar. So will you reject the Quran now?

------

Islam is a complete way of life, please stop trying to reform or change Islam because you cant and wont, Allah SWT has done it for mankind Himself.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-28-2006, 11:36 PM
:sl:

Reminder - Please lay off the sectarian discussion. If it continues, this thread must be closed.

13. No sectarian issues allowed. We are promoting the unity of Islam. Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-An'âm, verse 159:

Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad -- Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do.

:w:
Reply

M H Kahn
05-29-2006, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam Al-Fateh,

Also there are plenty of hadiths that contradict eachother... and many people have their own version of the same hadiths aswell. Also there are many hadiths that even contradict the Quran.

Also this is word of mouth. This is what people have said other people said about the Messenger... who are we to take their word for it?

salaam
:sl:
Hadiths are mostly hearsays collected by some individuals of their own around two hundred years after the death of Muhammed (pbuh). With lapse of time many sayings changed into fabulous stories. This is why there are plenty of stories that not only contradict the Quran, but there are many self-contradictory stories too. You may reject these as fabricated or corrupt. But why do you reject the other sayings that do not conflict with the Quran?
The Quran says it is a fully detailed scripture, and the details includes obeying the prophet, too.
Reply

M H Kahn
05-29-2006, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by samobosna96
We as Muslims do not have to read all the hadith to determine which ones are authentic or not the Prophets Companions have done it for us.
How could the prophet's companions determine which of the Hadiths were fake or fabricated when the stories were written about two hundreds years after the death of the prophet and when none of his companions was alive? Take reason in showing scholarship !
Reply

Looking4Peace
05-29-2006, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by samobosna96
... There is only one Islam and that is the Islam that there Prophet and his Companions were on, people who reject hadiths are far from the Islam of Prophet Muhammad. There are 73 sects and only one is saved, the People of the Sunnah. [post was edited]

Wow nice verbal attack right there, you should feel so proud of yourself

first of all i am new to Islam you are right about that, and what a nice way to greet me or make me feel welcome, you assumed that i do not read the hadith and yes i actually do, you are completeltly insulting western culture, yea it has its problems but i am from a western culture so you are clearly insulting me and being prejudice at that, and to say that voting in this country is not aloud? --- your basically saying every muslim in the united states is not allowed to vote, hmmmmm? Its people like you who give islam a bad name by being so extreme, attacking people and thinking you must be better than everyone else, also let me say its people like you who think because someone becomes muslim or shall i say reverts to islam, that we have to completely drop our culture and accept that culture of where islam first started when the truth of the matter is one does not have to disregard ones culture as long as its not engaging in activities that are forbidden in islam. You messed with the wrong person, cause for the record i emails scholars back and forth, i am not a dummy, i am simply learning, i simply stated a fact that it is not the easiest undestood aspect of islam (hadith)
i was just explaining to people that no matter what not evreryone intereprets either the quran or the hadith excatly the same and you just proved this by attacking me for living in a western society, where are you anyway saudi arabia?

and half the stuff you speak of i cannot even understand what u mean, why try to confuse someone who is new with all this technical talk, get a life and learn how to deal with people

why the do u insist on attacking me

do yourself a favor and do not ever speak to me here again OR I WILL KEEP REPORTING YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN

maybe you should read how people talk to each other here, cause you sure go about things quite disgusting, i gave up plenty of things, you do not know me so why judge? i do not drink, do not smoke, do not fornicate was never much for these things before i reverted and i sure dont assume and jump on peoples backs to way you do

shame on you

Get off your high horse and it is not your place to judge anyone, YOU ARE NOT GOD
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-29-2006, 12:48 AM
:sl:
If someone is confused about a hadith or doesn't understand something the only logical thing to do is ask those who know. If you don't know something just ask! Why languish confusion and doubt and keep your troubles to yourself? Alhamdulilah, Muslims today have resources which provide them with access to scholars who have studied these issues and can provide answers for them and clarify their confusion. This is especially what Muslims need to do when it comes to the hadith since it can be very easy for a non-scholar to get confused in the area if they don't turn to others for help.

As for understanding the Qur'an, it is true that one can understand the complete Islamic message from the Qur'an itself. However, they will not be able to implement the Qur'anic injuctions accurately in their life without turning to the ahadith which clarify how the Prophet pbuh implemented the laws, under what conditions and circumstances.

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
Hadiths are mostly hearsays collected by some individuals of their own around two hundred years after the death of Muhammed (pbuh).
An unfortunate MYTH.

Originally Posted by kadafi
Myth #1 Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

This misconception is based on the hadeeth mentioned in Saheeh Muslim (Second authenthic Hadeeth collection):
It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that. (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)
Those who use this hadeeth and argue that no ahadeeth were written are ignorant of the historical temporary prohibition of this statement. The temporary prohibition was meant as a precautionary step to ensure the correctness of the word of Allaah as distinguished from the words of the Prophet himself, as both came from the lips of the Prophet. This is one view and several other views are mentioned in the commentary on Saheeh Muslim by Imaam Al-Nawawi (May Allaah have mercy on him)


Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:
Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Alee (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth.

The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.
This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”
There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.
One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:
Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)
Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:
I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)
Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)
Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)
Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:
Preserve Knowledge
Abdullaah then asked,
how should it be preserved?
The Prophet replied,
by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)
In another report, he says,
I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’
The Prophet replied,
If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)
He also says:
I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Daawood)
After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said:
I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)
These narrations attest that ahadeeth were written during the era of the Prophet.

I will list here the prominent compilations written in the first and second century, some written by the sahabas (the Prophet’s companions), their students (taabi’een), and the students of the taabi’een (tabaa'at-taabi'een).

Some of the compilations during the era of the Prophet:

The Scripts of Abu Hurairah

Hasan ibn Amr reports that once:
Abu Hurairah took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahadeeth of the Prophet. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Baari)
The Script of Abdullaahi ibn Amr

Mujahid, his student, said
I went to Abdullaah ibn Amr and took in hand a script placed beneath his cushion. He stopped me. I said, You never save anything from me. He replied:
This is the Saadiqah (the Script of Truth). It is what I heard from the Prophet. No other narrator intervenes between him and myself. If this script, the Book of Allaah, and wahaz (his agricultural land) are secured for me, I would never care about the rest of the world. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm)
The Script of Anas

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of his students, says:
When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)
The Script of Alee

Alee said:
I have not written anything from the Prophet except the Qur’aan and what is contained in this script. (Saheeh Bukhaaree- Book of Jihaad)
Ibn Sa'd reports that Alee stood in the mosque and delivered a lecture then he asked the people:
Who will purchase ‘knowledge’ for one dirham only?
meaning, who wants to learn ahadeeth should buy writing paper for one dirham and come to him for dictation.

It is reported that Haarith al-A’war bought some paper and came to him:
So, Alee wrote for him a lot of knowledge. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
Scripts of Jaabir

Qataadah, one of Jaabir’s students, says,
I remember the script of Jaabir more than I remember Surah al-Baqarah (Qur’aan). (Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb)
Scripts of Ibn Abbaas

Musa ibn Uqbah says:
Kuraib left with us a camel load of Ibn Abbaas’s books. When Alee ibn Abdullaah ibn Abbaas would need any book from them, he wrote to Kuraib, ‘Send to me such and such books.’ He would then transcribe the book and send to him one of the two copies. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
The pupils of Ibn Abbaas would copy these scripts and read them over to him to confirm the correctness of the copies. (Tirmidhi)

Sometimes Ibn Abbaas would narrate the ahadeeth to his pupils while they would record them. (Daarimi)

The compilations of the First Century:

1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma’dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih,
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn ‘Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn Abdullaah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa’d (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwaab of Sha’bi,
12. Books of Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-Aliyah
14. Book of Sa’id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of Umar ibn ‘Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

The compilations of the second century (note that only the prominent ones are listed due length) :

1. Book of Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
2. Muwatta of Maalik ibn Anas (93-179)
3. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi’b (80-158)
4. Maghaazi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
5. Musnad of Rabi’ ibn Sabih (d. 160)
6. Book of Sa’id ibn Abi ‘Arubah (d. 156)
7. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
8. Jami’ Sufyan ath-Thauri (97-161)
9. Jami’ Ma’mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
10. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Awzaa’I (88-157)
11. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak (118-181)
12. Book of Hushaim ibn Bashir (104-183)
13. Book of Jarir ibn ‘Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
14. Book of Abdullaah ibn Wahb (125-197)
15. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
16. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
17. Tafsîr of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
18. Book of Musa ibn ‘Uqbah (d. 141)
19. Book of Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
20. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
21. Book of Yahya ibn Sa’id Ansari (d. 143)
22. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
23. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
24. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
25. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Mas’udi (d. 160)
26. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
27. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
28. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
29. Al-Gharaaib by Shu’bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
30. Books of Abdul-Aziz ibn ‘Abdullaah al-Majishun (d. 164)
31. Books of Abdullaah ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
32. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
33. Books of Abdullaah ibn Lahi’ah (d. 147)
34. Jami’ Sufyan ibn ‘Uyainah (d. 198)
35. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah (d. 150)
36. Maghaazi of Mu’tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
37. Musannaf of Waki’ ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
38. Musannaf of Abdur-Razzaaq ibn Hammam (136-221)
39. Musnad of Zaid ibn Alee (76-122)
40. Books of Imaam Shaafi’i (150-204)

The following are available today in printed form:

1. Al-Muwatta by Imaam Maalik.
2. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah.
3. Musannaf by ‘Abdur-Razzaaq. This book has been published in eleven big volumes.
4. As-Seerah by Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
5. Kitaab az-Zuhd by ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
6. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Waki’ ibn Jarraah (3 volumes).
7. Al-Musnad by Zaid ibn Alee (76-122).
8. Sunan of Imaam Shaafi’i.
9. Musnad of Shaafi’i.
10. Siyar of Awzaa’i (88-157).
11. Musnad of ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
12. Musnad of Abu Daawood Tayalisi (d. 204).
13. Ar-Radd ‘ala Siyaril-Awzaa’i by Imaam Abu Yoosuf.
14. Al-Hujjah ‘ala Ahlil-Madeenah by Imaam Muhammad ibn Hasan Shaibaani.
15. Kitaabul-Umm by Imaam Shaafi’i.
16. Al-Maghaazi by Waqidi (130-206) (4 volumes).
Taken from br.kadafi's post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html

:w:
Reply

samobosna96
05-29-2006, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
How could the prophet's companions determine which of the Hadiths were fake or fabricated when the stories were written about two hundreds years after the death of the prophet and when none of his companions was alive? Take reason in showing scholarship !
in my hurry i confused something, here i will clear it up, and if someone who is more knowledgable can correct me. the Prophets Companions in the first and second hijra years BEGAN to compile sort out the authentic hadith and this continued through until the Prphet died and many, many years after.

after the prophets death Umar relied on Aisha, Abu Huraiyah, and Ali to convey and compile hadith.

also the companians in their time and travels communiated the various teachings written down from the arab pennisula to china along with the quran.

even though the bulk of the authentication began later the Companions started the process.
Reply

samobosna96
05-29-2006, 01:43 AM
crystal4peace..


for one thing i wasnt tearing off your head and let me clear some things up..

1. those who reject hadith are not Muslim
2. the saudi arabia comment proves your ignorance of this religion
3. yes i was insuting the west, I am a Muslim (Bosnian) Canadian. I live in the west and i see everyday how bankrupt secular culture is. God willing one day it will fall to Islam and Islam will take over the world. (through intellectual means not violent)
4. yes a muslim cannot accept demoracy and support it. to support democracy is to take arms against God and the Muslims. Demoracy is not cultural it is ideological, a Muslim cannot accept secular concepts on any level to do so is shirk.
5. and i never said i was better than you, i was only stating a point, get tougher skin, you'll need it when the Muslim Holocuast starts roaring within the next few years.
6. and yes you have to drop everything that you did prior to Islam for the sake of Allah SWT. You will never be a true beleiver until the message of islam is dearer to you than this world.
7.i didnt attack you stopping do those activities is a good thing, never did i say you were a bad person, just that by saying yhat hadith should be rejected takes you out of the fold of Islam, which it does.
8. and go ahead report me to moderators while you are at it report me to the Canadian government and the American government. I fear Allah SWT not you, forum moderators, or the political elite. TAKE ME AWAY TO GIT-MO.
9. Islam is Quran and Sunnah whether you understand it or not
Reply

Looking4Peace
05-29-2006, 01:47 AM
Again alot of what you are saying is not true, i jsut emailed your commentes to a scholar (dont worry your name was not used)

I think you are exaggerating a bit, and so you are saying that one has to drop his/her culture to except islam, even if these things dont go against islam?

certainly not true at all. I mean im a european and hispanic mix? i cannot eat spanish or european dishes anymore you are saying? do i have to just eat arabic food

you say i have to drop everything i did prior to islam?
you mean i have to drop things that were not unislamic in any way, even if they were completely positive things? do you think that all other cultures do is drink and have sex- proves you are a very prejudice person

your really sounding foolish

and i take it upon myself to vote, hoping that people like bush wont get into office again- i guess im going to hell for this one with intentions that we will get a president who will stop attacking the mideast.
Reply

Looking4Peace
05-29-2006, 01:52 AM
[QUOTE=samobosna96;331652]crystal4peace..



6. and yes you have to drop everything that you did prior to Islam for the sake of Allah SWT. You will never be a true beleiver until the message of islam is dearer to you than this world.


can someone please tell me what he exactly means
if this means i cannot do things that have to do with my culture that do not go against islam or are not haram, please show me proof

and please someone else give me an answer besides this guy
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-29-2006, 02:30 AM
I wonder how anti-Hadith people do their prayers. Astagfirullah.
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 03:50 AM
Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Why do some people reject hadith? The answer is quite simple - ignorance...
Could you please prove the authentication of hadiths through the Quran? Could you please give me the verses in the Quran that talk about these hadiths?


The problem is you do not understand what the hadith and the hadith compilations are. The Qur'an commands us to follow the way of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and accept his teachings. In fact it negates the faith of anyone who fails to do so..


45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?


So was the Messenger rehearsing other hadiths?


This is another one of your miscocneptions. We don't accept the hadith in Sahih Bukhari because they were compiled by Imaam Bukhari. We accept them because they have gone through the most rigorous process of authentication by the scholars, and the efforts of the Muslim scholars for over a millenia have confirmed their authenticity.

And again, your faith lies in the hands of men. Why? becuase you depend on man to sort "authentic" and what is not. You depend on man to tell you what is divine. Do you believe that every so called "authentic" hadith, is honestly authentic? Do you believe that every so called "fabricated" haidth is truly fabricated? Where have all of these people recieved their authority/mission from? Why do you believe these are divine? Because man tells you so? What does the Quran say about the issue?


You misunderstand the function of the compilers of hadith - they were collecting the hadith that had already been recorded and transmitted and after authenticating them included them in their collection.

And again, you believe that Allah has left it up to men to authenticate divine messages?


And the efforts of the hadith scholars were built on the efforts of those who preceded them and confirmed by the efforts of those who came after them.
So these poeple have not made one error?

Why hasn't Sahih Ibn Hibban achieved the status of Sahih Bukhari? Was it because Imam Ibn Hibban was any less of a scholar? No, it is because the hadith in Sahih Ibn Hibban went through the authentication process and the scholars found some hadith to be inauthentic, so overall the compilation does not hold the same status as Sahih Bukhari which has unanimously been upheld to be completely authentic by the Muslim scholars.

And again, you are confirming what is authentic and what is not through men. Are men divine? Are men incapable of error?

Exactly what would you do if something labeled as "fabricated" is actually "authentic"? Whose fault is that? Theirs because they told you that it was? Or yours because you believed them? What in the Quran tells you that these men are incapable of error?


Myth. The hadith were recorded during the Prophet's lifetime by the companions; see br. kadafi's post here:
ALL MYTHS ABOUT AHADEETH DEBUNKED HERE

Yea, and the Prophet was also reported to have said do not write anything that he says but the Quran.

He didn't leave it up to you - you don't understand the rigorous process behind the authentication of hadith because you have never studied that science. Yet for some reason you have the audacity to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of!

Us- in general. And yes, I have the audacity to pass judgment.


Ahadith are not authenticated by some randomized process - the content as well as the chain of narration for each hadith is studied carefully to determine its authenticity, and this isn't done by just one scholar - this is the collective efforts of all the Muslim hadith scholars throughout Islamic history.

Are these men incapable of error???


Another point - it is always amusing to note hadith rejectors says, "But some of these hadith contradict the Qur'an". They forget that one of the requirements for a hadith's authenticity is that it be in accordance with the Qur'an, so the scholars of hadith already checked that before passing their judgement on it.
Obviously that is not the case becuase in the Quran it does not say to stone hte adulterer, rathar it says flog those who commit illegal sexual intercourse and then it goes even further to say that an adulterer should only be with an adulterer. YET hadiths clearly say to stone the adulterer.



What a hadith rejector really means when they make such a comment is that the hadith contradicts their ill-informed and mistaken understanding of the Qur'an.

Yes, we are all mistaken, though you can't even provide any verse from the Quran that authenticates these so called divine hadiths.


You're asking the wrong question. If we agree that God mandated for us to follow the Prophet pbuh, then the question should be whether these hadith are authentic in what they ascribe to the Prophet. By mandating obedience to the Prophet, God has mandated for us to follow all of the sayings and teachings of the Prophet which have been authentically transmitted to us.

Please read the verses that talk about staying away from alcohol and gambling, and women covering themselves.

If you think this verse is saying that there is no need for information beyond the Qur'an, then you haven't read the entire Qur'an:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

Again, I don't deny the MEssenger. I know his mission, and that was all established through the Quran.

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 04:08 AM
Salaam,

Thoughts before I go to bed:

I find it interesting how some of you seem to be trying to put some status on being born and raised Muslim compared to not being raised Muslim.


Let me just say there are millions of born and raised Muslims in this world and look at how corrupt so many are: honor killings, raping women, killing innocent men, women, and children, oppressing others, giving women second class citizenship, denying them the right to vote and own thier own property. Also let's look at the genocide of the ethnic Arab Muslims who are killing ethnic black Muslims becuase according to them, black Muslims aren't real Muslims.

So if you like to live on the false beef that becuase you have been raised Muslim you are guided and you know more, check again... it means nothing.

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 04:14 AM
Salaam M H Kahn,

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
:sl:
But why do you reject the other sayings that do not conflict with the Quran?

The same reasaon why I would reject the idea that jumping up 20 times every 20 minutes is a religious obligation.


The Quran says it is a fully detailed scripture, and the details includes obeying the prophet, too.[/LEFT]
Who was to tell you about gambling, drinking alcohol, and women covering themselves?

salaam
Reply

muslim_friend
05-29-2006, 05:12 AM
:sl:

There are so many ahadith that speak of following the Sunnah. Since you hold the view that all hadith cannot be trusted, consider this: if atleast one of those hadith pertaining to the sunnah really is true, then your case is lost. All it takes is just one of those hadith to be verified (and they have). Even from a neutral point of view, it would appear you are taking a risk.The tides are in the favour of Qur'an and sunnah rather than Qur'an alone. When scholars say it is authentic, you say it is not. What if it really is authentic?>>> It so happens you just rejected the Prophet's saying!

Do you know of this verse?

"Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much." (33:21)
Reply

muslim_friend
05-29-2006, 05:19 AM
If you think this verse is saying that there is no need for information beyond the Qur'an, then you haven't read the entire Qur'an:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.
Again, I don't deny the MEssenger. I know his mission, and that was all established through the Quran.
The verse is very clear here. It's in favour of following the sunnah.
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 12:59 PM
Chillax ya'll remember the Quranic ayah in which Allah says to us to give dawah in a wise respectful manner and argue in ways which are both respectful and beneficial..Please dont stoop to insults inshAllah..:)

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them in ways that are best." Sura An-Nahl 16:125

Anyone disregarding the hadith claiming they are all false and madeup whatnot, please answer me two things:
1) How do you think the Quran was compiled?
Do you jus think it was sent on tablets and someone later just copied it? Or was it recited and recorded and compiled by MAN?...
2) I'm beginning to think you dont even think the Sahabah existed? Yay or nay?

Peace x


"You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beuatiful pattern [of conduct] for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the rememberance of Allah." [Surah al-Ahzab 33:21]
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 01:07 PM
I find it interesting how some of you seem to be trying to put some status on being born and raised Muslim compared to not being raised Muslim.
We were all born as a Muslim, Verily Allah guides whom He wills and lets lead astray whom He wills, if anyone turns back to thy Lord with repentence it is obviously from Allah that they have come back to deen-ul-haaq...Surley our Lord is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful...

Let me just say there are millions of born and raised Muslims in this world and look at how corrupt so many are: honor killings, raping women, killing innocent men, women, and children, oppressing others, giving women second class citizenship, denying them the right to vote and own thier own property. Also let's look at the genocide of the ethnic Arab Muslims who are killing ethnic black Muslims becuase according to them, black Muslims aren't real Muslims.
Ya Allah guide them to Siratum-Mustakeem..Their answering is to Allah on the Day...Give dawah and guide them to whats right...the rest is to Allah...

So if you like to live on the false beef that becuase you have been raised Muslim you are guided and you know more, check again... it means nothing.
What is this? Competition whose a better Muslim: Reverts/People who are brorn in an Islamic background??
Listen Everyone Allah made us ALL as Muslim...we are ALL brothers and sisters, so stop competing, Allah alone is aware of what is concealed in your hearts and you will be payed your wages accordingly ...Your life, intentions and all your deeds will be judged as will everyone else...

"O Mankind!We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that ye may know one another (Not that ye may despise eachother). Verily the most honourable amongst you in the site of Allah is that who has At-Taqwaa [i.e one of the Mutataqun (pios)]. Verily Allah is All-knowing, All-Aware"

Peace and Keep the faith x
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-29-2006, 01:23 PM
alsoo

der r hadiths qudsi, which r directly sed by Allah (swt) 2 RasoolAllah (saw) so do you really think someone, will make something up about Allah (swt), when Allah (swt) says in surah al ghafaar it says

"Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies."

also and by you rejectin hadiths sis, lemme post an ayah from d quran, surah an Nahl :) verse 106

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."

rejectin the sunnah of RasoolAllah (saw) is unbelief, so it says here dat if u utter unbelief, then d wrath of Allah (swt) will b on ya!

2 lik make my statement more strong here we gooo :) in Surah Nisa vrse 79 it says .....

"And We have sent you (Muhammad) as a Messenger to humanity, and Allah is sufficient as a witness. He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them."

and by rejectin d sunnah, u hav turned away as it says in d above ayah :)

so fix up!!! :okay:
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 01:29 PM
Braap Well said akhi...mucho respecto [sumin long lines of spanish sayin losa respect *eyes rolly*] lol...Well said...
Continue...
Peace x
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-29-2006, 01:33 PM
sista maz, chank u lol ders ova ways of showin ur happyness aswell (green button in corner) HINT HINT :p

come on boi stop sister, we want wots best 4 ya, we showin u evidence from Quran, dat hadiths r part of d deen, basically if u reject dem, den reject em, but i dnt tink u sud lead others 2 reject em, cos ur takin dem away from d deen..

and u didnt answer moi!!

do u belive in d dajjal? :)
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 01:35 PM
LOL, Cuzzin' wont leme do it :(...Must chuk reps round b4 givin it 2 u agen LOL...
Yo Sis answer us enit, we not tryna av a go at ya merely pointing evidence backin up HAAQ :) Peace x
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-29-2006, 01:38 PM
lol

answer sista boi stop lol we sud call u hadiths stop, but we not goin 2 :embarrass, bcos we cnt use nicknames :)

:) c how nice we r :)

but sista, do u belive in the dajjal? that he will come and stuff?
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 01:41 PM
Lol, chacha man i know yo eager n tin' buh ease it, all in good tym...patience my ol' codger ..Takes a lil wile thinkin of cumbks against the Quran lol...Peace x
Reply

Mawaddah
05-29-2006, 02:20 PM
Sister BoiStop, in other forums I have already exhausted myself trying to clarify this matter to other Qur'aanis (people who reject Hadeeth) so here I am not going to do that again since Bro Ansar Al Adl has given an excellent explanation as to why Hadeeth is part of Islam.
As far as I can see, and as far as any true Muslim who understands the Qur'an can see.......You're just going around in circles, You keep asking Why? and when we give you the answer you just do a double turn and ask ' Why' again.
Wont you take time to read properly and understand what was given to you? But I would like to ask you a question which I have often asked other Qur'aanis but have never received a proper answer for : How do you make salaat? . All of the other whom I have asked always say "It's mentioned in the Qur'aan " Please, show me where?
Do you read the Faatihah? do you do rukoo' sujood ? I know these movements are mentioned in the Qur'aan......but do you know how many to do? what to say?.....Please I would like to know Insha'allah.
May Allah Guide me and You to the straight path and May He open the hearts of those whom are Blind to the Truth Amin.
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 02:39 PM
Salaam Ansar Al-‘Adl,

Excuse me brother but you only “refuted” my position with hadiths. That’s it. Nothing you said was based on Quran. None of your evidence was based on Quran. Also which hadiths says that there was a time a limit on the rule of not writing down what the Messenger supposedly said? Which hadith? Or is that only an explanation of trying to correct an obvious contradiction in people’s actions and what they believe?

6:114
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?- When he it is who hath sent unto you the book, explained in detail”……..

10:15
But when our clear signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us. Say: “Bring us a Quran other than this, or change this” Say: “It is not for me of my own accord to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord I should myself fear the Chastisement of a Great Day”.


6:19
Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?”
Say: “Allah is witness between me and you; This Quran hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?
Say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness!”
Say: “But in truth he is the One God. And I truly am innocent of joining other with him.

No mention of hadiths. Rather the Messenger himself is commanded to say that the Quran is what has been sent to him… no mention of hadiths anywhere.

You all keep bringing up verses that talk about how the Messenger does not speak out of his own desire, that he his a good example, etc, etc… yes true, but none of that still supports your position to follow these hadiths that you practice. There are examples of the Messenger in the Quran, and even in the Quran the Messenger is commanded by God to command things of us. So your argument that following his example and obeying him can only be done through hadiths is false… Who was to tell women to cover themselves? Who was to tell people to stay away from intoxicants and gambling?

I’ll post later…
salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 03:11 PM
Salaam,

First let's establish that the Quran is detailed. You all argue that the Quran is not detailed enough, does not explain, etc, etc. Allow me to refute that lie against the Quran.

Surah 6:114
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?- When He it is who hath sent unto you the book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the book, that it hath been sent down from they Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Surah 7:52
For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,-- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.


Surah 16:89
…And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

Surah 18:54
We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

Surah 39:23
Allah has revealed the most beautiful hadiths in the form of a book, consistent with itself, repeating:…..

Surah 44:2
By the Book that makes things clear.

Surah 45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse to thee in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?


Do You Have Another Book?
Surah 68: 37-38
Or have ye a book through which ye learn that ye shall have through it whatever ye choose?
Reply

S_87
05-29-2006, 03:15 PM
:sl:


ok ^^^^^^ how do we


Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "if you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
3:31
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 03:41 PM
Salaam,

What is the Messenger’s duty?

Surah 42:48
If then they turn away, we have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly when we give man a taste of mercy from Us, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is a man ungrateful!

*Surah 5:99
The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye
reveal and ye conceal.

Surah 35:30
Then the Messenger will say: “Oh my Lord, truly my people treated this Quran with neglect”

Surah 42:7
Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Quran: that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,-- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (When) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing fire.

Surah 46:9
Say: “I am not an innovation among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear.”


There is no mention of any other hadith besides the Quran, that has been inspired to the Messenger. It is always Quran. Are any of you willing to say that the hadiths compiled are also the Quran? I doubt.

salaam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-29-2006, 04:13 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Could you please prove the authentication of hadiths through the Quran? Could you please give me the verses in the Quran that talk about these hadiths?
You are asking the same question I already responded to. Yes or no - do you agree that if a statement has been proven to be from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh then we must follow it because of the Qur'anic verses which say so?

It is quote clear that the Qur'an negates the faith of anyone who does not accept the judgements of the Prophet (verse 4:65) and it explicitly indicates that the explanations and teahcings of the Prophet pbuh have been divinely ordained (verse 16:44). So the question is not whether the Qur'an endorses hadith because it clearly mandates the acceptance of all the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that are conveyed to us. The question is rather, are the narrations conveyed to us and labeled by the scholars as sahih reliable?. And the answer to that, as anyone who has studied the hadith sciences knows, is a resounding YES.
45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?

So was the Messenger rehearsing other hadiths?
Another common tactic used by hadith rejectors is to exploit ignorance of arabic terms. Hadith simply means a saying/narration. So the Qur'an is asking in this verse, what will people believe in if they reject the words of their Creator. As for your question if the Prophet pbuh conveyed more than the Qur'an, the answer again is YES:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

This verse clearly establishes that there is not only a revelation sent down (the Qur'an) but there are also the explanations of the Prophet that accompany it. These explanations have been preserved as our ahadith. This is the divine wisdom behind sending a Prophet so that human beings will see someone like them implementing and explaining the revelation from God. Any hadith rejector who tries to say that the Qur'an needs no additional source is refuted by this explicit passage which unequivocally states that the Prophet is to not only convey the Qur'an, but explain it as well.
And again, your faith lies in the hands of men.
A red-herring. God has given human beings the ability to write and record to preserve knowledge. The Qur'an was recorded in exactly the same way - by men. It was human beings who memorized and recorded the Qur'an just as it was human beings who memorized and recorded the Ahadith. It is through human beings that God's message is conveyed from one to another. But it is due to the divine help of God that human beings accomplished either. Why do you accept the Qur'an and not the Ahadith when they have both been preserved by the same people? It is God who enabled us to do both tasks.
Do you believe that every so called "authentic" hadith, is honestly authentic? Do you believe that every so called "fabricated" haidth is truly fabricated?
Absolutely. Because unlike hadith-rejectors I educate myself about the procedure behind their authentication. You can too; he's a very basic intro:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
And again, you believe that Allah has left it up to men to authenticate divine messages?
God has protected and preserved the divine message through men, just as He allows it to be conveyed to different nations through men.
So these poeple have not made one error?
One person on their own can make an error. But when someone claims that the same error has been missed by over a millenium of hadith scholars who re-examined the work, a visit to the shrink is in order. For each hadith you can find the research of hadith scholars on it, the verdicts they gave on it and their conclusions about the people in the chains of narration.
Yea, and the Prophet was also reported to have said do not write anything that he says but the Quran.
You're telling me right now that you didn't read the article I linked:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
That comment was answered IN THE ARTICLE ITSELF. Dozens of ahadith are listed there which show the Prophet pbuh told the companions to record his hadith. And look at what the companions did:
Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of the students of Anas ibn Maalik, says:
When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)
He didn't leave it up to you - you don't understand the rigorous process behind the authentication of hadith because you have never studied that science. Yet for some reason you have the audacity to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of!
Us- in general. And yes, I have the audacity to pass judgment.
So you admit that you have the audacity to pass judgement on a science you are ignorant of - I think that says a lot about your sincerity to God.

Hadith-rejectors thrive on self-imposed ignorance.

They don't have knowledge, they know they don't have knowledge, and they refuse to educate themselves to gain that knowledge. God commands Muslims to learn and ask those with knowledge, but hadith-rejectors do the opposite. I think you need to re-check your intentions: if you are sincere in your commitment to God then you will try to learn and educate yourself about hadith sciences so you can make a more informed judgement.
Obviously that is not the case becuase in the Quran it does not say to stone hte adulterer, rathar it says flog those who commit illegal sexual intercourse and then it goes even further to say that an adulterer should only be with an adulterer. YET hadiths clearly say to stone the adulterer.
Did you read the commentaries of the hadith scholars on why this hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic statement? I suspect not. The hadith and the Qur'an are prescribing punishments for different offences, see this thread for a detailed discussion of this issue:
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...ing-death.html
Now if you were sincere in learning you would ask, "Doesn't the hadith about stoning contradict the Qur'an? How did the scholars of hadith reconcile this with the verse from Surat An-Nur?" but instead you make the claim that they haven't reconcied the two when you have not read or studied any of their works. Like I said before - you need to check your intentions. If you are sincere in learning about your religion, then you need to do just that - adopt the attitude of a student. Instead, one will find hadith-rejectors adopting the most arrogant attitude despite their acknowledged ignorance of hadith sciences.
You're asking the wrong question. If we agree that God mandated for us to follow the Prophet pbuh, then the question should be whether these hadith are authentic in what they ascribe to the Prophet. By mandating obedience to the Prophet, God has mandated for us to follow all of the sayings and teachings of the Prophet which have been authentically transmitted to us.
Please read the verses that talk about staying away from alcohol and gambling, and women covering themselves.
You conveniently ignored my statement. Why?
Again, I don't deny the MEssenger. I know his mission, and that was all established through the Quran.
THis is the verse again:
Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought
The verse is refuting the claim that the Qur'an is all we need. The verse explicitly mentions that the Prophet's explanations have been divinely ordained as well.
First let's establish that the Quran is detailed. You all argue that the Quran is not detailed enough, does not explain, etc, etc.
If the Qur'an explaiend itself, then why does the above verse comannd the Prophet to explain it? Sounds a little redundant, doesn't it?
Surah 42:48
If then they turn away, we have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly when we give man a taste of mercy from Us, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is a man ungrateful!
The verse is only saying that the duty it to convey the message and not guard over whether they accept it or not. As I pointed out the Qur'an explicitly mentions that the Prophet's function was more than just to convey the Qur'an; he also had to explain and implement it:
Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought


:w:
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 05:11 PM
First let's establish that the Quran is detailed. You all argue that the Quran is not detailed enough, does not explain, etc, etc. Allow me to refute that lie against the Quran.

Under no circumstances am I saying that the Quran is not detailed enough...
I am saying that the Quran is the divine message and the recipient of the message >> the Prophet [Pbuh] (Seal of Prophethood] showed us how to implement all that the message required of us hence his actions were recorded so that mankind can learn and follow the blessed being

I said...
The message is the Quran, which shows us the basic requirements and laws by thy Lord and the Messenger being the person showing us how to implement/enact these requirements.
The Quran sends the basic outlines of how to become a good Muslim and the hadeeth and Sunnah shows how to put it into practice

Surah 6:114
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?- When He it is who hath sent unto you the book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the book, that it hath been sent down from they Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
Yes the Quran was the final revelation and the true revelation sent as guidence to mankind FROM ALLAH!..Yes it is all haaq...

Surah 7:52
For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,-- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
Yes it is as guidence showing the rules from Allah without doubt...Next...

Surah 16:89
…And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
I am sorry I dont understand your point, well obviously it is referring to the Quran as it is the final book >> not altered [Injeel, Zabur and Tawrah have been all changed] that is all based on the truth and is the words of Allah

Surah 18:54
We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.
Yes again my argument still stands...


Surah 44:2
By the Book that makes things clear.
Yes it does ...The Quran is obviously the best of all books...First comes Quran then Sunnah and hadeeth :)


Surah 45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse to thee in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?


Do You Have Another Book?
Surah 68: 37-38
Or have ye a book through which ye learn that ye shall have through it whatever ye choose?
This is saying that there is NO more revelation directly from Allah.. The Quran is the only book but other recordings of the blessed man to showing us how to enact the message of Allah that have been recorded are vaild...

Please also respond to my questions, i would greatly appreciate it :) Thanks Peace x
Reply

CavemanDoctor
05-29-2006, 05:43 PM
Peace all.

Since so many here seem to not accept anything unless backed by ulama, I'll post a book that discusses the lack of a need for hadith as per Qur'anic instructions.

You can find it at the following link: 24. No un-Islamic, anti-Islamic or inauthenthic URLS in posts, profiles, PMs or signatures

It is written by the renown scholar Kashif Ahmed Shehzada. I point this out, not cause I think it matters, but because it is obvious it matters to most of you here. Unlike the claims of some in here, there are those who have devoted just as much time to the study of the hadith sciences and who still have determined them to be unnecessary as per the Qur'an.

The book addresses most, if not all, of the claims made on this very thread. am not posting it to anger anyone. I would like us to have a discussion on its merits. After all, we are all here to submit to God alone and to find out the Truth.

I just want to say that I'm new here and I'm glad I have found this forum. Even though I disagree with many of you, I have found this forum to be open-minded and for its posters to be, for the most part, polite and respectful. I thank you guys for that.

Peace all.
Reply

CavemanDoctor
05-29-2006, 05:45 PM
Another thing. I see 16:44 posted in this thread a lot. I'll copy-paste the argument relating to 16:44 from the Shehzada book here. It follows:

You are free to articulate arguments yourself, but simply cutting and pasting from sectarian sites is not acceptable.
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 06:09 PM
Salaam,

Yes or no - do you agree that if a statement has been proven to be from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh then we must follow it because of the Qur'anic verses which say so?
If there was a command given by the Messenger to me then yes I would follow it.

So the question is not whether the Qur'an endorses hadith because it clearly mandates the acceptance of all the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that are conveyed to us. The question is rather, are the narrations conveyed to us and labeled by the scholars as sahih reliable?. And the answer to that, as anyone who has studied the hadith sciences knows, is a resounding YES.
I disagree. I don’t believe that they are reliable. The reason is because these hadiths come from other people’s observations and what they think that may have seen the Messenger do or what they may have thought they have heard. What if the Messenger said something totally different? What if he was doing something just to do it, and it meant nothing? What if he was talking to ONE person and his command was only for that one person? These are OTHER people’s observations of what they saw and heard. Thus these observations can’t be divine themselves. Who are these people to say that what he was saying was divine when it may had not been at all? These are not DIRECT messages and commands from the Messenger himself… rather hadiths stem from what people may have heard or seen the Prophet due, i.e. their own view of what had happened.

And again, why would Allah have us have to “confirm” the validity? If these hadiths were given the promise of protection, then how can there ever be such a thing as a “weak” hadiths? Why are we even questioning the authentication? Do we go about and question the authentication of Quran verses? No. So why hadiths? By questioning the authentication of these hadiths, and then admitting that there are WEAK hadiths, that in itself proves that this system is faulty… and really it is up to MAN to accept or reject based on his own feeling. And just because they may be scholars does not mean that they have divine knowledge and are able to get every thing right. I believe in nothing that has error, and your system of hadiths—which you say has been protected by Allah, but yet there are “fabricated” hadiths— has error.

This verse clearly establishes that there is not only a revelation sent down (the Qur'an) but there are also the explanations of the Prophet that accompany it. These explanations have been preserved as our ahadith.
Years after the Messenger’s death.





This is the divine wisdom behind sending a Prophet so that human beings will see someone like them implementing and explaining the revelation from God. Any hadith rejector who tries to say that the Qur'an needs no additional source is refuted by this explicit passage which unequivocally states that the Prophet is to not only convey the Qur'an, but explain it as well
I don’t have a problem with the Messenger doing his job, this we can read in the Quran.
But again, hadiths are other people’s observations of what they believe they saw and heard—their view of what happened and what was going on. These aren’t direct.

And again, I believe that the only thing that he had explained was the Quran that’s it. It’s obvious that there are numerous hadiths that do not explain the Quran at all, but rather create their own separate rules, often contradicting the Quran itself. But yet Muslims accept this, just like they accept stoning the adulterer and try to make some explaination on how Allah didn’t really mean zina- illegal sexual intercourse, when he said “zina”. Yea, ok, sure. You are so in love with the hadiths and what was confirmed by man, that you are willing to reject the rules of the Quran—something whose authenticity has never been questioned by Muslims.

Why do you accept the Qur'an and not the Ahadith when they have both been preserved by the same people? It is God who enabled us to do both tasks.
Because I believe that the Quran has been promised protection. Not hadiths. I don’t believe that these hadiths that you all practice are in the Quran. It’s always been Messenger must convey the Quran, I don’t believe that you can get from Quran to narrations by people and calling them divine narrations.

I find it disturbing how you see nothing wrong or questionable about accepting something which has gone under an authentication process. It makes no since. And I don’t believe that Allah would have us go through such a struggle

If you believe that the Quran has been recorded by the same people and preserved by the same people, then why didn’t the Quran go through the same process?? You mean to tell me that people chose to neglect that hadiths—something they believe is so crucial in order to practice Islam in order to preserve the Quran? It makes no since. Quran didn’t go through an authentication process, yet hadiths have…. And you still remain steadfast in the belief that hadiths have always been recorded and preserved by the same noble people.

One person on their own can make an error. But when someone claims that the same error has been missed by over a millenium of hadith scholars who re-examined the work, a visit to the shrink is in order.
Millions of people do not believe in God…. How could they possibly make such an error? Millions of people have mistaken their Lord as Jesus, how can they possibly make such an error? What you are doing is making a grave error, by putting Muslim scholars on some level of being incapable of making an error.

I mean for goodness sakes, do you see how illogical your argument is? Thousands of black Muslims are being killed by Arab Muslims because to the Arabs the blacks aren’t really Muslim! Don’t you dare think that it’s not possible for thousands of people, for years, to act deaf, dumb, and blind.


For each hadith you can find the research of hadith scholars on it, the verdicts they gave on it and their conclusions about the people in the chains of narration.
And if hadiths were really preserved and recorded like the Quran, which you seem to be claiming, then they would have never had to gone through such a process, because we know the Quran’s authenticity is only questioned by the non-Muslim, while the authentication has even been questioned by Muslims for hundreds of years.

What you are saying is that you believe that these scholars have made no error what so ever. That basically the whole system of authenticating a hadith—which was created by man (the sytem)--- is incapable of error. You are saying this? Who told you that this system has no error and that every hadiths ever labeled “authentic” is authentic and every haith labeled “weak” is actually “weak”? Are you willing to die for this system, which was created by man, because you believe that it is so true?

I don’t believe in hadiths because 1.) I believe that it is too far off from the Quran, 2.) it is word of mouth and it comes from other people’s observations, the sayings and actions are not direct, and 3.) The simple fact that there are “weak” hadiths and “strong” hadiths proves that there has been corruption in the so called sayings of the Messenger, and there is no proof that this system of “authenticating” a hadiths is incapable of error, rather it is just traditional thought and not DIVINE knowledge that says that it is.

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of the students of Anas ibn Maalik, says:
When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)

See look at what you believe in. Is that the Prophet talking? No. That is another man’s observation and experience… and yet you take it is a truth.


Now if you were sincere in learning you would ask, "Doesn't the hadith about stoning contradict the Qur'an? How did the scholars of hadith reconcile this with the verse from Surat An-Nur?" but instead you make the claim that they haven't reconcied the two when you have not read or studied any of their works.
I already know how they reconciled it--- basically they have come to the conclusion that when Allah said “Zina” he didn’t really mean zina bur rather fornication. And there are some who of course just abrogate the whole verse.


Like I said before - you need to check your intentions.
My intentions? Excuse me but I was not the one who started this thread and asked Why you all believed in hadiths. Someone else asked WHY there are those who don’t. I stated my reasons and it was you all who wished to debate over the matter.

If you are sincere in learning about your religion, then you need to do just that - adopt the attitude of a student. Instead, one will find hadith-rejectors adopting the most arrogant attitude despite their acknowledged ignorance of hadith science
Adpt the attitude of a student? You say that I don’t have the attitude of one because I don’t believe what you believe and I am not willing to accept what you are “teaching” me. Teachers are not always correct. I didn’t come up with my belief 2 days ago.

You conveniently ignored my statement. Why?
I’ll agree with you that this is a question of authentication (to a certain degree because I believe that everything goes back to the Quran). My point about alcohol, gambling, and covering of women is to show how the Quran has told the Messenger what to command, and he’s been commanded to command people of things throughout the Quran. It’s just enough for people.

If the Qur'an explaiend itself, then why does the above verse comannd the Prophet to explain it? Sounds a little redundant, doesn't it?
Honestly brother that is something that you have to answer and search for yourself, because when I say that the Quran is detailed I’m not making up a lie… the Quran says it, itself. Are you going to deny that the Quran is detailed when it calls itself detailed??

As I pointed out the Qur'an explicitly mentions that the Prophet's function was more than just to convey the Qur'an; he also had to explain and implement it:
And I don’t disagree with the Messenger’s function. It all goes back to the Quran. But I don’t believe that all of these so called sayings of the Messengers are stemmed from the Quran, etc.

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 06:11 PM
Salaam x Maz x,

My post about the Quran being detailed wasn't meant as a specific reply to you.
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 06:13 PM
salaam x Maz x,

Oh wait, it actually was meant to reply to something you were saying (but it wasn't so specific to you).

You keep saying:

The message is the Quran, which shows us the basic requirements and laws by thy Lord and the Messenger being the person showing us how to implement/enact these requirements.

There is nothing "basic" about being detailed.
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 06:27 PM
Ok maybe it may seem tad contradicting but it sets basic guidelines to mankind...without no guidence we have nothing to follow...I am not saying the hadith is more explanitory than the Quran but it sets the foundation for what we have followed..its like a sandwich...the bread bit...cause without it their aint much of a sandwich simirarly their aint much point to life...its like the centrepiece but not the centre *eyes rolly**..get what me sayin? Hmm shall i just edit it? and say it explains all the guidelines?...Dya get what me tryna say? Peace x
Reply

Skillganon
05-29-2006, 06:29 PM
I find it strange, so how do you follow the sunnah?

Boistop.

And thank's MOD for my new avatar, ;D
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-29-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
If there was a command given by the Messenger to me then yes I would follow it.
Good. So you agree that if a command or statement of the PRophet pbuh has been authentically transmitted to you, you must likewise accept it? The question should now be whether the hadith are authentic or not.
I disagree.
You're free to do so, but if you haven't studied the field you are commenting on, an ill-informed judgement carries little weight.
I don’t believe that they are reliable. The reason is because these hadiths come from other people’s observations and what they think that may have seen the Messenger do or what they may have thought they have heard. What if the Messenger said something totally different?
If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement. Remember these are the companions of the Prophet pbuh we are talking about; they were more careful than anyone to narrate the correct statement. Also consider when a statement is confirmed by multiple sources. I quoted for you a statement which says that Anas ibn Maalik used to write the Prophet's saws statements and get him to verify it. In light of all this, for someone to say for no good reason that the companions couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh properly is a very poor excuse.
What if he was doing something just to do it, and it meant nothing? What if he was talking to ONE person and his command was only for that one person? These are OTHER people’s observations of what they saw and heard.
This is an issue of Usûl Al-Fiqh, not Ulûm Al-Hadîth. How we interpret the Prophet's statements and commands found in the hadith is a different issue from the authenticity of the hadith themselves.
And again, why would Allah have us have to “confirm” the validity? If these hadiths were given the promise of protection, then how can there ever be such a thing as a “weak” hadiths? Why are we even questioning the authentication? Do we go about and question the authentication of Quran verses? No. So why hadiths?
Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No. The protection of the Prophet's message (pbuh) means that we are able to record and preserve the statements that have been authentically transmitted from him and seperate them from the statements that have been falsely attributed to him. The fact that we have been able to do that and reached a consensus amongst the scholars on that, is proof of their protection. If they hadn't been protected we would never have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet saws did and said.
By questioning the authentication of these hadiths, and then admitting that there are WEAK hadiths, that in itself proves that this system is faulty…
No, it doesn't. There are some people who will claim that some forgeries are from the Qur'an - does their claim contradict the Islamic belief in the Qur'an's divine protection? Of course not. Anyone can make up a verse and claim its from the Qur'an or make up a hadith and clima its from the Prophet pbuh - but in both cases the Muslim Ummah will unanimously reject such lies because our sources have been preserved. We can seperate the fabricated from the authentic, and that shows that the system works, not that it is faulty.
Years after the Messenger’s death.
No, they were recorded and transmitted by the companions themselves. I've already answered this myth, and I gave you this link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
And again, I believe that the only thing that he had explained was the Quran that’s it. It’s obvious that there are numerous hadiths that do not explain the Quran at all, but rather create their own separate rules, often contradicting the Quran itself.
No, I've already pointed out that a requirement for a hadith to be authentic is that it must be in conformity with the Qur'an. And the Qur'an contains the message of Islam. The Prophet's sunnah shows us how to implement that message and clarifies some of the general principles given in the Qur'an.
Because I believe that the Quran has been promised protection. Not hadiths.
But they have both been preserved by human beings. Answer that. Why do you reject hadith and make statements like, "Your faith lies in the hands of men" when the Qur'an was preserved in the same way! What you have acknowledged above is that God can protect the scriptures through human beings. Just because the sunnah has been preserved by human beings in the form of ahadith does not mean that God has not protected it.
I find it disturbing how you see nothing wrong or questionable about accepting something which has gone under an authentication process. It makes no since.
Why not?
If you believe that the Quran has been recorded by the same people and preserved by the same people, then why didn’t the Quran go through the same process??
Because it is completely mutawâtir. The Qur'an has been transmitted to us through an innumerable of chains of narration. There are many ahadith which are mutawâtir as well.
Millions of people do not believe in God…. How could they possibly make such an error? Millions of people have mistaken their Lord as Jesus, how can they possibly make such an error? What you are doing is making a grave error, by putting Muslim scholars on some level of being incapable of making an error.
Your analogy is flawed for so many reasons. You have mistaken my argument for the fallacy of appeal to authority or majority. This is only considered a fallacy when the person cited is not an authority in that field. So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.
And if hadiths were really preserved and recorded like the Quran, which you seem to be claiming, then they would have never had to gone through such a process, because we know the Quran’s authenticity is only questioned by the non-Muslim, while the authentication has even been questioned by Muslims for hundreds of years.
Wrong. The authentication of the hadith has NEVER been questioned by anyone with even a minimal education on hadith sciences. If you want to include ignorant people then you could find ignorant people believing anything.
You are saying this? Who told you that this system has no error and that every hadiths ever labeled “authentic” is authentic and every haith labeled “weak” is actually “weak”?
Every hadith which has been unanimously accepted by the scholars of hadith as authentic, is authentic, especially if the only ones who reject it are those who have no education in the sciences of hadith.
Are you willing to die for this system, which was created by man, because you believe that it is so true?
If you live in a house then you have already trusted your life to those who constructed and designed it so that it wouldn't collapse. The same is true for every technology, mechanism, medicine, etc. that you rely on daily.
See look at what you believe in. Is that the Prophet talking? No. That is another man’s observation and experience… and yet you take it is a truth.
Not 'another man' - it is Anas ibn Maalik, the companion of the Prophet explicitly saying that he recorded the sayings of the Prophet pbuh and verified them with him. Interesting how you have nothing to say in response to this, except to reject it since it doesn't suit your desires. I accept it as the truth because the narration has been scrutinised by scholars of hadith and they have found it to be authentic - just as you would accept the diagnosis of a medical doctor on a patient if it was confirmed by virtually every medical doctor.
I already know how they reconciled it--- basically they have come to the conclusion that when Allah said “Zina” he didn’t really mean zina bur rather fornication.
What is the arabic word the Qur'an uses for fornication. Please tell me.
My intentions? Excuse me but I was not the one who started this thread and asked Why you all believed in hadiths. Someone else asked WHY there are those who don’t. I stated my reasons and it was you all who wished to debate over the matter.
You proceeded to pass judgement on a subject that you acknowledged you were ignorant of - definitely not the attitude of a sincere Muslim. It is not too late to change your attitude: you can start learning about the hadith sciences and find out why the Muslim scholars unanimously accept them.
Adpt the attitude of a student? You say that I don’t have the attitude of one because I don’t believe what you believe
No, I say that because you cannot deny the fact that you are commeting on a subject that you have no knowledge about. You should first gain the knowledge and then comment on this subject.
I’ll agree with you that this is a question of authentication
Good. Then your focus should simply be to learn the basics of the hadith sciences. Asking where the Qur'an endorses hadith recorded in Bukhari and Muslim is a red-herring since you agree that the question is solely one of whether that hadith has been authentically ascribed to the Prophet or not.
My point about alcohol, gambling, and covering of women is to show how the Quran has told the Messenger what to command, and he’s been commanded to command people of things throughout the Quran. It’s just enough for people.
Is it? Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?
Honestly brother that is something that you have to answer and search for yourself, because when I say that the Quran is detailed I’m not making up a lie… the Quran says it, itself. Are you going to deny that the Quran is detailed when it calls itself detailed??
No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.
And I don’t disagree with the Messenger’s function. It all goes back to the Quran. But I don’t believe that all of these so called sayings of the Messengers are stemmed from the Quran, etc.
Like I said before, the question now becomes whether the ahadith are authentic or not, and for you to be able to answer that you need to study the hadith sciences. What you are finding now is that you have no reason to reject hadith except due to ignorance, which it is your duty as a Muslim to eliminate,

:w:
Reply

al-fateh
05-29-2006, 07:17 PM
great info so far, i have learned a lot ehre
Reply

BoiStop
05-29-2006, 07:45 PM
Salaam Ansar,

No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.

I don't deny that. What you fail to realize is that we have different views on the issue. I don't deny that he may ahve explained the Quran... if it's in the Quran, why would I deny it????? LIke I said, I believe everything goes back to the Quran. To me, hadiths defintily do not.
salaam
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-29-2006, 07:46 PM
boi stop elo lol do u beleive in the dajjal yesh or no?
Reply

al-fateh
05-29-2006, 07:52 PM
people who reject the hadith will more likely reject the authenticity of the dajjal and consider it fabricated as well
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-29-2006, 08:01 PM
lol i not askin u agen bout d dajjal cos u dnt ansa me :okay:

but if u reject d dajjal, den ur obviosly a disbeliever, but if u accept dat d dajjal will come,

then how do u no, he will come? in the Quran Allah (swt) doesnt mentioned the dajjal!!! because Allah (swt) hasnt fort of d dajjal 2 b summin big enuf 2 b mentioned in d Quran, mashallah.

so wer do we learn about the dajjal from the hadiths :)

also Hadhrat Khizr (as) how do u no dat when Musa (as) went 2 learn more, the person who he met 2 learn from was Hadhrat Khizr (as) ......

BECAUSE ITS EXPLAINED IN THE HADITHS :)

so my point is proven!!

woo hoo :p il b waitin 4 d reps lol
Reply

al-fateh
05-29-2006, 08:08 PM
i do believe in the Dajjal
and i believe in the hadith

what are u talking about?
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Mawaddah
05-29-2006, 08:35 PM
Masha'allah this is an excellent debate, and sister, if you would but remove that veil of ignorance, you would see the clarity in Ansar Al-Adl's answers to you. It's Crystal clear!! From the beginning of this debate until now, all I see is that you're going around in circles again and again. Even though you deny the Hadeeth, I will quote you one. Rasululllah peace be upon him said That the person who Quotes the Ayats of the Qur'an to support a false claim then verily he is a Kaafir.

:w:
Reply

x Maz x
05-29-2006, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
i do believe in the Dajjal
and i believe in the hadith

what are u talking about?
:giggling: Chillax breda, he wernt referring 2 you, dont have a heart attack he was addressing the sister who denys this :)

MashAllah Ansar Al-Adal...respect to you..would rep you but erm your already an administrator so theirs no poin :rollseyes
Peace x
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-30-2006, 02:30 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by BoiStop
I don't deny that. What you fail to realize is that we have different views on the issue.
Is an ill-informed view comparable to an educated view? Let's see what the Qur'an says:
39:9 Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who know not? Verily it is only those with understanding who take heed.

You have acknowledged that the crux of this issue comes down to whether or not the hadith have been authentically preserved. You have acknowledged that your understanding of this science is minimal. You have acknowledged that it is not becoming of a believer with humility to pass judgement from ignorance. On this basis I think we can also agree that you need to start learning so that you can make an informed judgement.

I have had many debates and discussions with hadith rejectors so I know that a major factor behind this is that they come across hadith that they find troubling or they don't understand so they begin to doubt the authenticity of hadith. What I would recommend is that you ask questions about those hadith that you don't understand so that we can provide you with those explanations, inshaa'Allah, and help remove your confusion.

To solidify the issue regarding the need for hadith we can take a look at some simple examples. The Qur'an mentions the Islamic punishments for various crimes but it does not mention exceptions or conditions. eg.
The male thief and female theif cutt of their hands (5:38)
Does this apply to children? Does this apply to the insane? Does this apply to those who steal things that are of minimal value like a grain of salt?
The Qur'an also mentions salat and some rulings regarding it (eg. shortening it while traveling) but it does not give the details as to how any of this is done. Same with Zakat, same with fasting.

:w:
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BoiStop
05-30-2006, 05:18 AM
Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Good. So you agree that if a command or statement of the PRophet pbuh has been authentically transmitted to you, you must likewise accept it? The question should now be whether the hadith are authentic or not.

Let me say that if I recieved a personal letter from the Messenger, I would be more inclined to believe that, than beleiving something transmitted word to mouth.

If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.


So are you now saying that some knowledge has been lost? That divine wisdom for the Messenger which was meant to be passed to others, has not been passed to others?

Are you saying that since such and such could not hear the Messenger clearly, Allah has allowed such divine knowledge not to pass through? Basically if you accept the fact that staments may have not been transmitted, "lost in translation", because people may have not heard it completly then you are saying that your religion is incomplete. You are saying that divine knowledge has been blocked away from you, and that you may indeed not be practicing what you are meant to be practicing.


Just to get on the same page as you:

1.) You accept hadiths.
2.) You believe that some divine knowledge has been lost because people may have not heard it completly.

I don't understand why GOd would allow something to not pass through the next generations...

This idea itself, that messages not being transmitted because lack of hearing clearly, proves itself that not all hadiths have been protected and preserved in the matter which you claim.

Remember these are the companions of the Prophet pbuh we are talking about; they were more careful than anyone to narrate the correct statement.
So people say the companiosn of the Prophet had said.

Also consider when a statement is confirmed by multiple sources. I quoted for you a statement which says that Anas ibn Maalik used to write the Prophet's saws statements and get him to verify it. In light of all this, for someone to say for no good reason that the companions couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh properly is a very poor excuse.

But you do admit to the fact that if they did not hear the Messenger properly then such a message would not be transmitted.

But anwyays, multiple sources does not prove that something is correct.


Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No.
Obviously you are wrong becuase if educated Muslims did not question the authenticity of Sahih Haidth then there would be no suhc thing as "authenticity" and "fabrication" of Sahih Hadith. Maybe they do not question because people have labeled these hadiths have "authentic".... but you know what, you shouldn't label someoen as "uneducated" just becuase they choose to question the form of thought being passed by generation. To label someone "uneducated" because they are questioning the way you live, the way you practice, and what you believe only seems to show that you have insecurity in your belief.

The protection of the Prophet's message (pbuh) means that we are able to record and preserve the statements that have been authentically transmitted from him and seperate them from the statements that have been falsely attributed to him. The fact that we have been able to do that and reached a consensus amongst the scholars on that, is proof of their protection. If they hadn't been protected we would never have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet saws did and said.

Please give me the Quran verse that gaurantees their protection. You cannot declare something divinely protected or divine if it is not in the Quran! Please give me the QUran verse that gaurantees their protection.

Just because MAN has CLAIMED to have protected and preserved these hadiths does not mean that it is "proof" of divinity. Where is your Quran verse that says this??

And yes we would have have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet did and said because even today there are DIFFERENCE of opinions about what he did and said among the hadith acceptors... Obviously not all scholars are agreeing on everything. Obviously there is not this unanimous consenseus which you claim there is.

There are some people who will claim that some forgeries are from the Qur'an - does their claim contradict the Islamic belief in the Qur'an's divine protection? Of course not. Anyone can make up a verse and claim its from the Qur'an or make up a hadith and clima its from the Prophet pbuh - but in both cases the Muslim Ummah will unanimously reject such lies because our sources have been preserved. We can seperate the fabricated from the authentic, and that shows that the system works, not that it is faulty.
Again where is the Quran verse to back up all of this divine work of authentication?

Also I have to ask, what if there is a tribe in the desert of Africa whose ancestors came into contact with the Messenger and the Messenger commanded something of this tribe... how are you going to handle that? Are you going to tell these people that what they believe is false, though their honorable leaders have passed such a tradition down to their tribe for generations?

Do you have a belief that every hadith has been discovered? (though you acknowledge that there may have been some hadiths disregarded because lakc of hearing clearly)

Do you believe that the Messenger only spoke to his companions and gave his companions the knowledge and then it was his companions who had to spread it?

I ask this because say if the Messenger was alive today and told YOU something. How are we going to confirm what you have said is true? You aren't apart of his Sahaba, you are not his companion. Just some man that he may have came across by on the street. Must we rely on, and I mean no disrespect, your percieved good charachter?

What do all of these "sources" mean? Are these the only sources possible?

But back to the tribe question (and yes I would put money on teh fact that there is some tribe on this earth today, that have their own set of hadiths that renowned scholars have never even heard of, but yet this tribe has followed for generations)...

Who are these scholars to label what they have been practicing for generations as a "fabricated" hadith? Who has given them divine knowledge to label it fabricated? The Quran? or have they only been telling themselves that?

I don't recall ever hearing the Messenger only revealed his message to his companions and it was up to them to spread it. Didn't he talk to many people? Didn't he come into contact with many people? So who is who? How do we say that they are wrong?


But back to the main issue: Where your Quran verse that says that this system that MAN has created to "authenticate" hadiths, is perfect and incapable of error?

What makes you believe that these scholars have been correct? Does the Quran say that tehy are correct?

If you cannot prove that the Quran has called their system correct, there is no way you can justify calling it incapable of error and PROOF of protecting divine knowledge, unless you take in the opininon of man.


To me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith. I don't have any other way to describe it. It is the central thing surrounding my faith, therefore if something is not directly mentioned or stemmed from Quran then I wont accept it. If I believe in another religious book, then I could only believe in it becuase the Quran said that I should believe in it.


But they have both been preserved by human beings. Answer that. Why do you reject hadith and make statements like, "Your faith lies in the hands of men" when the Qur'an was preserved in the same way! What you have acknowledged above is that God can protect the scriptures through human beings.

If hadiths were preserved and protected the same way then why did anyone ever go about and question hadiths in the first place???? We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran.

And excuse me, but God can protect the scipture thoguh human beings, just like he can protect the scripture though animals if he likes. What we know is that God has given us the promise of protecting the Quran. It doesn't matter who he may have protected it through.


Just because the sunnah has been preserved by human beings in the form of ahadith does not mean that God has not protected it.
Ok, just give me the Quran verse that says that he has protected these hadiths, that these hadiths are truth, and that the system that has been used for years is incapable of error.

The question should be "Why do you believe this?". Do you believe this becuase of Quran? or becuase of what people have told you?

Again, to me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith, and it serves as a central for what I believe (besides God). If it's not in the Quran then I can't believe it. Where does the Quran speak of what you are saying?


Because it is completely mutawâtir. The Qur'an has been transmitted to us through an innumerable of chains of narration. There are many ahadith which are mutawâtir as well.
I believe that the Quran has been written down since its existance.

So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.

So are you saying that physician is incapable of error in medicine? A physicist is incapable error in pysics? A chemist incapable of of error in chemistry?


Every hadith which has been unanimously accepted by the scholars of hadith as authentic, is authentic, especially if the only ones who reject it are those who have no education in the sciences of hadith.

You keep saying "unanimously"..... I have to disagree. If that was the case there would be ONE school of thought among Muslims... Also let me remind you that we are not allowed to talk about sects on this board, but only if I could... your "unanimous" inquiry would be so totally out the window.


If you live in a house then you have already trusted your life to those who constructed and designed it so that it wouldn't collapse. The same is true for every technology, mechanism, medicine, etc. that you rely on daily.

But while I may give them my trust, I would never say that their work proves "divine" knowlege of construction, and that my house would never fall down. I believe that you on the other hand are willing to say that not one "authentic hadith" is wrong.

Not 'another man' - it is Anas ibn Maalik, the companion of the Prophet explicitly saying that he recorded the sayings of the Prophet pbuh and verified them with him.
And this is what poeple say Anas ibn Maalik did.

Interesting how you have nothing to say in response to this, except to reject it since it doesn't suit your desires.

Why are you getting personal with my faith and reducing everything down to what suits my desires? I don't like the taste of my own medicine.

It's actually funny that you say this considering the fact that I walked around for several hours today wishing to buy the bikinies that I saw when searching for something to wear to swim in, but choosing to instead follow what I believe would be a correct form of dress according to God's rules.


I accept it as the truth because the narration has been scrutinised by scholars of hadith and they have found it to be authentic - just as you would accept the diagnosis of a medical doctor on a patient if it was confirmed by virtually every medical doctor.
But we are know that a medical doctor is capable of errors.

If anything, I would like for you to realize the capability of error.

It is not too late to change your attitude: you can start learning about the hadith sciences and find out why the Muslim scholars unanimously accept them.
I keep reminding myself that we are forbidden to talk about sects on this board.

Is it? Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?
I meant to say that it's just not enough for poeple (but it's enough for me of course). I won't get into the performance of salat because that's a different discussion, and we haven't finished with the one that we are on. But like I said, the Quran is detailed and clear-- it says it, itself. It's up to you believe it or not.

No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.
What the heck? I don't deny the Quran. The Quran is already clear on the issue: it's clear, it's detailed, it explains. I provided the verses for you. I'm not going to denounce what the QUran has said just becuase YOU may not eleive it. And excuse me but I've already told you that I believe in everything the Quran says, even the ones about the Messenger.

Like I said before, the question now becomes whether the ahadith are authentic or not, and for you to be able to answer that you need to study the hadith sciences. What you are finding now is that you have no reason to reject hadith except due to ignorance, which it is your duty as a Muslim to eliminate,
:w:
I have plenty of reason to reject hadiths. Bottom line is I don't believe that they are authentic. I can care less about the science of them, becuase guess what? I have not read anything in the Quran that endorses the way that people prove a hadith is authentic! You on the other hand have taken the method and have seemed to have labeled it incapable of error. I believe in nothign that has error.

salaam
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-30-2006, 12:22 PM
:sl:

One simple question boistop:

Since the Quran came to he Prophet (SAW) and the hadiths were his sayings, how do you know that the Quran is not hadith and vice versa?

You do realize that by accepting the Quran you are accepting something that the Prophet first said to the people? What is your basis of identifying the Quran apart from the Hadith, for all you know they can be the one and the same.

To reject the Hadith is infact a rejection of the Quran. Read the Quran, itll lead you to the Sunnah and the Hadiths, i.e. The Hikmah that Allah mentions in so many places.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-30-2006, 02:03 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Let me say that if I recieved a personal letter from the Messenger, I would be more inclined to believe that, than beleiving something transmitted word to mouth.
Irrelevant again. If the teachings are transmitted to you by numerous reliable people the you would be obliged to accept it. The Prophet pbuh himself sent his companions to different places to give Da'wah and spread his teachings. One lie hadith-rejectors spread is that a typical chain or narration in Sahih Bukhari has about 20-30 narrators, when the reality is that it has only 5 to 6 narrators!
If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.
So are you now saying that some knowledge has been lost?
Are you suggesting Prophet pbuh spoke in an inaudible fashion such that no one could be certain of what he said? The Prophet pbuh was known for clearly explaining things to his companions. If they didn't hear him they would ask. No divine knowledge was lost because the Prophet pbuh conveyed all of it clearly and audibly to his companions.
So people say the companiosn of the Prophet had said.
Reliable scholars. There is an entire science on the narrators of ahadith which you can study so you know who these people were.
But anwyays, multiple sources does not prove that something is correct.
When a source is confirmed by multiple other sources it is regarded as even more reliable and trustworthy. Are you suggesting that the entire Muslim ummah at that time was composed of liars?!
Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No.
Obviously you are wrong becuase if educated Muslims did not question the authenticity of Sahih Haidth then there would be no suhc thing as "authenticity" and "fabrication" of Sahih Hadith.
Excuse me? Do you understand what 'sahih' means? There is no such thing as a fabricated sahih hadith, that's an oxymoron!
but you know what, you shouldn't label someoen as "uneducated" just becuase they choose to question the form of thought being passed by generation.
I label someone uneducated when they do not have any education in hadith sciences - it's a black and white issue!
Please give me the Quran verse that gaurantees their protection. You cannot declare something divinely protected or divine if it is not in the Quran! Please give me the QUran verse that gaurantees their protection.
When Allah swt says that He has protected all revelation sent down to the Prophet pbuh (eg. 15:9), this necessitates the inclusion of the divinely inspired teachings of the Prophet pbuh which clarify the Qur'an. It is inconceivable that Allah swt would only protect the text of the Qur'an and not the entire message on how to use it and apply it in our lives.
And yes we would have have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet did and said because even today there are DIFFERENCE of opinions about what he did and said among the hadith acceptors...
Not on the hadith unanimously accepted as authentic.
Also I have to ask, what if there is a tribe in the desert of Africa whose ancestors came into contact with the Messenger and the Messenger commanded something of this tribe... how are you going to handle that? Are you going to tell these people that what they believe is false, though their honorable leaders have passed such a tradition down to their tribe for generations?
The chain of narrators is examined and if it is fount to be authentic, it is accepted.
Do you have a belief that every hadith has been discovered?
If you know what the word hadith means you will know why that is a silly question. And all of the Prophet pbuh's teachings have been preserved.
Do you believe that the Messenger only spoke to his companions and gave his companions the knowledge and then it was his companions who had to spread it?

I ask this because say if the Messenger was alive today and told YOU something. How are we going to confirm what you have said is true? You aren't apart of his Sahaba, you are not his companion. Just some man that he may have came across by on the street. Must we rely on, and I mean no disrespect, your percieved good charachter?
But the Prophet isn't alive today so your comment doesn't make any sense. It was his companions who were alive and they transmitted his teachings. If you are trying to ask how reliable they were then you can research the following names:
Abu Hurayrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, Anas ibn Maalik, Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Jaabir ibn Abdillah, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abu Said Al-Khudri, Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al-'As, etc.
I don't recall ever hearing the Messenger only revealed his message to his companions and it was up to them to spread it. Didn't he talk to many people? Didn't he come into contact with many people?
I take it you do not know the definition of a Sahabi?
But back to the main issue: Where your Quran verse that says that this system that MAN has created to "authenticate" hadiths, is perfect and incapable of error?
I have answered this dozens of times. You have already admitted that since the Qur'an endorses following and accepting the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh, the appropriate question to ask should be whether the teachings of the Prophet pbuh have been authentically preserved in the Ahadith or not. And the truth of the matter is that it is inconceivable for Allah swt to allow the teachings of the final Prophet to be lost.

To show the flaw in your question, one could counter by asking you to show where the Qur'an endorses the mushaf compiled by Uthman rd.

If hadiths were preserved and protected the same way then why did anyone ever go about and question hadiths in the first place?? We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran.
No one ever questions the saheeh hadith just as no one ever questioned the Qur'an. There are missionaries who have produced a copy of christian teachings in arabic and distribute it as 'a Qur'an' in impoverished parts of Africa to deceieve Muslims. Does this mean the Qur'an has not been preserved? Of course not, because the Muslim ummah can unanimously reject such things.
And excuse me, but God can protect the scipture thoguh human beings, just like he can protect the scripture though animals if he likes. What we know is that God has given us the promise of protecting the Quran. It doesn't matter who he may have protected it through.
Exactly. So all your comments about the hadith being a 'system of man' are red-herrings because you acknowledge that Allah swt can protect His message through the systems of man.
The question should be "Why do you believe this?". Do you believe this becuase of Quran? or becuase of what people have told you?
I believe this because I have educated myself on the sciences of the Qur'an and the sciences of Ahadith, such that I am easily able to identify the [self-imposed] ignorance behind those who reject Ahadith.
So are you saying that physician is incapable of error in medicine? A physicist is incapable error in pysics? A chemist incapable of of error in chemistry?
All of them are capable of error on their own, just as one hadith scholar is. But the entire consensus of hadith scholars can not all agree on an error. If all the doctors of the world agreed on something, people would say only a fool would reject it.
You keep saying "unanimously"..... I have to disagree. If that was the case there would be ONE school of thought among Muslims...
You have clearly not studied the madhâhib. First of all the only differences amongst the madhâhib are fiqhi differences, NEVER any differences in major issues of Islamic law or Theology. Secondly, the differences hardly stem from dispute over the authenticity of ahadith.
But while I may give them my trust, I would never say that their work proves "divine" knowlege of construction, and that my house would never fall down. I believe that you on the other hand are willing to say that not one "authentic hadith" is wrong.
I never said the scholars had 'divine knowledge', they just preserved it by the will of Allah swt. And even if you do not say that your house would never fall down, you know yourself such a notion to be a massive improbability so you continue to live in your house.
And this is what poeple say Anas ibn Maalik did.
Not 'people', this is what he said hismelf and it has been transmitted from all his reliable students and recorded.
It's actually funny that you say this considering the fact that I walked around for several hours today wishing to buy the bikinies that I saw when searching for something to wear to swim in, but choosing to instead follow what I believe would be a correct form of dress according to God's rules.
So you acknowledge that not only are you ignorant of hadith sciences, but you have struggles with your eemaan as well.
But we are know that a medical doctor is capable of errors.
When you go to your medical doctor and he recommends a medicine for you would you stand up and say, "How do I know you're right! Show me in the medical textbooks where I have to drink this!" - no, you accept his sayings without question. Now imagine if all the greatest medical doctors in then world were agreed on this. That is analogous to the case of the hadith scholars, yet laymen like yourself have no hesitation in standing up and advancing their ill-informed opinions in opposition.
I have plenty of reason to reject hadiths. Bottom line is I don't believe that they are authentic.
Because you are completely ignorant of the sciences of Ahadith and you don't want to change your ignorance.
I have not read anything in the Quran that endorses the way that people prove a hadith is authentic!
I have already addressed this red-herring.

I repeat my previous advice and questions to you:
:sl:
Originally Posted by BoiStop
I don't deny that. What you fail to realize is that we have different views on the issue.
Is an ill-informed view comparable to an educated view? Let's see what the Qur'an says:
39:9 Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who know not? Verily it is only those with understanding who take heed.

You have acknowledged that the crux of this issue comes down to whether or not the hadith have been authentically preserved. You have acknowledged that your understanding of this science is minimal. You have acknowledged that it is not becoming of a believer with humility to pass judgement from ignorance. On this basis I think we can also agree that you need to start learning so that you can make an informed judgement.

I have had many debates and discussions with hadith rejectors so I know that a major factor behind this is that they come across hadith that they find troubling or they don't understand so they begin to doubt the authenticity of hadith. What I would recommend is that you ask questions about those hadith that you don't understand so that we can provide you with those explanations, inshaa'Allah, and help remove your confusion.

To solidify the issue regarding the need for hadith we can take a look at some simple examples. The Qur'an mentions the Islamic punishments for various crimes but it does not mention exceptions or conditions. eg.
The male thief and female theif cutt of their hands (5:38)
Does this apply to children? Does this apply to the insane? Does this apply to those who steal things that are of minimal value like a grain of salt?
The Qur'an also mentions salat and some rulings regarding it (eg. shortening it while traveling) but it does not give the details as to how any of this is done. Same with Zakat, same with fasting.

:w:
Reply

M H Kahn
05-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by samobosna96
oh yeah by the way if you dont believe in hadith, how do you pray? you cant practice islam without the hadith.
:sl:
Haven't the prayers of salah, zakah, pilgrimage and saom come down to us from Ibrahim (pbuh)? Aren't we on Ibrahim's (pbuh) religion refubrished by Mohammed (pbuh)?
Reply

BoiStop
05-30-2006, 09:04 PM
Salaam Ansar,

So you acknowledge that not only are you ignorant of hadith sciences,
but you have struggles with your eemaan as well.

Your comment is quite low and it only shows that you are an immature being. Plain and simple, I give you an example to reject your idea htat I only believe in things that suit me and you can only make the assertion that I "struggle" with my deen. Your actions only make you out to be a hypocrtite becuase last time I checked you weren't sinless.

Actually my eemaan is quite strong considering the fact that I follow what I believe rathar than my own desires becuase ALlah knows best. Your seems to be quite low because you can only resort to personal attacks in a discussion.

salaam
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-30-2006, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

One simple question boistop:

Since the Quran came to he Prophet (SAW) and the hadiths were his sayings, how do you know that the Quran is not hadith and vice versa?

You do realize that by accepting the Quran you are accepting something that the Prophet first said to the people? What is your basis of identifying the Quran apart from the Hadith, for all you know they can be the one and the same.

To reject the Hadith is infact a rejection of the Quran. Read the Quran, itll lead you to the Sunnah and the Hadiths, i.e. The Hikmah that Allah mentions in so many places.

:w:
:sl:

Im still waiting for a response to the above question. Looking forward to hearing your views and responses.

:w:
Reply

samobosna96
05-30-2006, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
:sl:
Haven't the prayers of salah, zakah, pilgrimage and saom come down to us from Ibrahim (pbuh)? Aren't we on Ibrahim's (pbuh) religion refubrished by Mohammed (pbuh)?

you tell me where i can find the scrolls of abraham (AS) ????
Reply

searchingsoul
05-31-2006, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by x Maz x
"By the star when it goes down, your companion is neither astray nor being mislead, nor does he say [anything] of his [own] desire. It is no less than an inspiration sent down to him" [Surah an-Najm 53:1-4]
I don't understand this verse. If the Prophet wasn't responsible for any of his words or desires, was he truly human?
Reply

searchingsoul
05-31-2006, 04:21 AM
Did the Muslims after the death of the Prophet Mohammed follow the hadiths?
Reply

zqamar49181
05-31-2006, 04:50 AM
brother! its simple if u do not beleive in hadith then tell me are u reading paryers.........are u making wadoo..........in quran there is nothing about prayers like how to read how much rakats we have to payer.....yeh i know in quran ALLAH said again and again about prayers.......and its our job to do it but if u do not beleive in hadith how you will know how and howmuch and what to read in prayers.........as its not in quran...........thats we have hadith to exaplian things which are not explain in quran but holy Prophet(P.B.U.M) told us all about prayers..........so thats y its important 4 a muslim to believe in it.....otherwise may be u are not a muslim if u are not beleiving our Prophet(P.B.U.H)...........and there are other lot of things which hadith only explains......so plz make a tuuba and may ALLAH 4 give u and allah of u and may ALLAH give us ability to understand the quran nad hadith
i hope this will clear your mind INSAHALLAH.
Reply

Sohrab
05-31-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam,

Again, can any of you all establish hadiths through the Quran? can of you?

salaam
Guess what!

World Wars 1 and 2 never happened.

Nepoleon never existed.

Mongols never attacked Muslims

Spain was never ruled by Muslims

Wright Bros didn't invent airplane

Edison never invented the bulb.

BBC and CNN are not reliable because they always lie.

History subject should be kicked out of the academics.

.............

well, i may as well wonder whether i was really born at my parents'?

If Hadith can be rejected altogether, what can't be:?

Prayers
Reply

BoiStop
05-31-2006, 04:24 PM
Salaam Shorab,

Originally Posted by Sohrab
Guess what!

World Wars 1 and 2 never happened.

Nepoleon never existed.

Mongols never attacked Muslims

Spain was never ruled by Muslims

Wright Bros didn't invent airplane

Edison never invented the bulb.

BBC and CNN are not reliable because they always lie.

History subject should be kicked out of the academics.

.............

well, i may as well wonder whether i was really born at my parents'?

If Hadith can be rejected altogether, what can't be:?

Prayers

And history is defined by what man defines and what man takes as true. Plain and simple. THe western world has a different view of all of those things from the eastern world. I'm not saying that it could have never existed, I'm only asking can you gaurantee 100% accuracy on all of their aco----s, not 99% not 99.9999%?

It's become evident that some people's faith is about numbers and likely of.

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-31-2006, 04:57 PM
Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

Irrelevant again. If the teachings are transmitted to you by numerous reliable people the you would be obliged to accept it.


And who says that these people are reliable? God or man?

Everything you say all seems to go back on the perception of man, which I'm sure you acknowledge is sinful and decietful at times. NOTHING you are saying is coming from the perception of God.

"If they are reliable".... who says that they are reliable? God or man?

If God said it, ok. If man said it, then obviously there is going to be error... unless you believe that even man can achieve perfection.



The Prophet pbuh himself sent his companions to different places to give Da'wah and spread his teachings.

So are you saying that all knowledge coming from the Messenger passe through his companions first?


Are you suggesting Prophet pbuh spoke in an inaudible fashion such that no one could be certain of what he said? The Prophet pbuh was known for clearly explaining things to his companions.

Excuse me but you are the one who said:

If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.

That's why I asked you, becuase of your own statement, if you believe that some knowledge has been lost.


If they didn't hear him they would ask.
You are now contradicting yourself because you just said that they wouldn't transmit the info. if they couldn't hear him.

No divine knowledge was lost because the Prophet pbuh conveyed all of it clearly and audibly to his companions.

So you believe that all divine knowledge had passed through the companions first?

Reliable scholars.

Again, based on the perception of man. Not God, correct?


There is an entire science on the narrators of ahadith which you can study so you know who these people were.

And again the perception that they are reliable, trustworthy, etc, etc is all based on the perception of man. There is no revelation from God that says so and so is a reliable and trustworthy perception, correct? Correct. So again, this perception that they are reliable, trustworthy, etc, etc is based on the perception of man... therefore there can be error.


When a source is confirmed by multiple other sources it is regarded as even more reliable and trustworthy. Are you suggesting that the entire Muslim ummah at that time was composed of liars?!

No, I'm not say that they were liars... I'm only asking who gave them the right to write what their fathers told them was true? Who gauranteed every thing they heard was perserved, and protected? Who told them such and such was a reliable and trustworthy person? God or man?

I'm not saying that these people are "liars" (their intention was to lie), I'm only asking where did they get such authority and recognition? God or man?


When Allah swt says that He has protected all revelation sent down to the Prophet pbuh (eg. 15:9), this necessitates the inclusion of the divinely inspired teachings of the Prophet pbuh which clarify the Qur'an.

I only believe that the Quran was the only thing inspired to him, you don't.


It is inconceivable that Allah swt would only protect the text of the Qur'an and not the entire message on how to use it and apply it in our lives.

Again, why hasn't the Quran gone through a system of "authentication"?




Not on the hadith unanimously accepted as authentic.



The chain of narrators is examined and if it is fount to be authentic, it is accepted.

And again, their leaders would only be called reliable, trustworthy, nice, respectable, devout, pious, etc, etc by people... not God.


And all of the Prophet pbuh's teachings have been preserved.
But you just said that some things the companions wouldn't transmit because of lack of hearing.

But the Prophet isn't alive today so your comment doesn't make any sense. It was his companions who were alive and they transmitted his teachings. If you are trying to ask how reliable they were then you can research the following names:
Abu Hurayrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, Anas ibn Maalik, Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Jaabir ibn Abdillah, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abu Said Al-Khudri, Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al-'As, etc.

You seem to have the belief that all knowledge was passed through the companions first, is that true?



I have answered this dozens of times. You have already admitted that since the Qur'an endorses following and accepting the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh, the appropriate question to ask should be whether the teachings of the Prophet pbuh have been authentically preserved in the Ahadith or not.

No, I have not admitted to anything based on your idea of what I accept.

What I accept is the QUran only, therefore I believe that it is the Quran that only the Messenger spoke of and is the only thing that was inspired to he Messenger. That is it. I didn't get into detail with you about what I believe he has explained, but you should look at the Quran and see what the Quran has commanded the Messenger to say at times. And I don't believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of the PRophet, I believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of Allah.


And the truth of the matter is that it is inconceivable for Allah swt to allow the teachings of the final Prophet to be lost.
Ok, well show me the Quran verse that says that Allah has protected the Quran and more.




No one ever questions the saheeh hadith just as no one ever questioned the Qur'an.
Please give me the Quran verse that says that the Saheeh haidths are divine.


Exactly. So all your comments about the hadith being a 'system of man' are red-herrings because you acknowledge that Allah swt can protect His message through the systems of man.
You are missing the point of what I am saying... I am asking you point out the QUran verse that says that ALlah has protected these hadiths by a system that man had created.


All of them are capable of error on their own, just as one hadith scholar is. But the entire consensus of hadith scholars can not all agree on an error.
And who told you that they cannot?


If all the doctors of the world agreed on something, people would say only a fool would reject it.

And based on perception, back in the day most scientists accepted the "fact" that the Sun revolved around the Earth.


I never said the scholars had 'divine knowledge', they just preserved it by the will of Allah swt.

Quran verse please?

And even if you do not say that your house would never fall down, you know yourself such a notion to be a massive improbability so you continue to live in your house.
So now your faith is based on numbers?

See when I accept God, I do not say "It is improbable that he is not God".

When you accept hadith, are you saying, "It is improbable that it is not true"?

Either way you are leaving room for for the possibility of error. I accept God and no word that bases itself on numbers is used. He IS God.



When you go to your medical doctor and he recommends a medicine for you would you stand up and say, "How do I know you're right! Show me in the medical textbooks where I have to drink this!" - no, you accept his sayings without question. Now imagine if all the greatest medical doctors in then world were agreed on this. That is analogous to the case of the hadith scholars, yet laymen like yourself have no hesitation in standing up and advancing their ill-informed opinions in opposition.
But it still does not mean that they are incapable of error!

salaam
Reply

BoiStop
05-31-2006, 05:03 PM
Salaam Ahmed,

Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

One simple question boistop:
But you have 3.;D


Since the Quran came to he Prophet (SAW) and the hadiths were his sayings, how do you know that the Quran is not hadith and vice versa?
1.) For me accepting the Quran is a matter of faith.
2.) I believe that the Quran is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness). Therefore everything that I believe as "divine" is stemmed from the teachings of the Quran.
3.) I believe that the Quran IS a hadith becuase it describes itself as a hadith.


You do realize that by accepting the Quran you are accepting something that the Prophet first said to the people? What is your basis of identifying the Quran apart from the Hadith, for all you know they can be the one and the same.

Like I said, I believe that accepting the Quran is a matter of faith and that it is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness).

To reject the Hadith is infact a rejection of the Quran. Read the Quran, itll lead you to the Sunnah and the Hadiths, i.e. The Hikmah that Allah mentions in so many places.
Please don't forget the Quran is the book of Wisdom.:)

salaam
Reply

Sohrab
05-31-2006, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam Shorab,




And history is defined by what man defines and what man takes as true. Plain and simple. THe western world has a different view of all of those things from the eastern world. I'm not saying that it could have never existed, I'm only asking can you gaurantee 100% accuracy on all of their aco----s, not 99% not 99.9999%?

It's become evident that some people's faith is about numbers and likely of.

salaam

Just because one can't guarantee 100% accuracy of something, doesn't mean you reject it all together. Newton's laws of motion do not hold true in systems with extremely high velocities, and very small masses, as was evidenced by Einstein.

People who compiled hadith were aware of the fact that accepting everything we get as a hadith is as dangerous as rejecting it altogether. That's why they had to assign each hadith with a rating, which would indicate it's health...both of the source of the hadith, and the content it contains.

I won't throw away an 18 carat gold brick, just becuase it's not 24 carat, and thus impure. With a little effort you can make it more pure, and that's what i believe our Hadith compilers have done. Hats off to them.

P.S. I don't encourage attacking one's character, and in that, i assure u, i agree with you totally. :)

Prayers
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-31-2006, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
And who says that these people are reliable? God or man?
Are you saying that Islamically we cannot take witnesses from human beings unless God has endorsed them? Think again:
24:4. And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the sinful.

If God has declared that we can hold the testimony of four witnesses (everyday people) to be sufficient for the implementation of 100 lashes, who are you to say that we cannot consider reliable the testimony numerous scholars known for their virtue, truthfulness and piety? Is it conceivable that these righteous scholars would unanimously conspire together to make the Muslim ummah believe in a lie?

Moreover, God HAS endorsed the testimony of the scholars as a group:
3:18 There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, AND THOSE ENDUED WITH KNOWLEDGE, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.


So are you saying that all knowledge coming from the Messenger passe through his companions first?
I'm saying that it was the Prophet pbuh considered reliable and sufficient.
Excuse me but you are the one who said
Yes, that in no way implies knowledge was lost. They heard the Prophet's teachings well because the Prophet pbuh ensured that he was speaking in an easily understood manner, and in addition to that, if they did not hear they would ask for clarification. By no means would they transmit something that was only faintly heard. And there was no knowledge to be conveyed that was only faintly heard by the companions, hence no divine knowledge was lost.
You are now contradicting yourself because you just said that they wouldn't transmit the info. if they couldn't hear him.
I said they woudn't transmit info that they faintly heard. They would transmit info after they had verified from the Prophet pbuh himself what was said.
I only believe that the Quran was the only thing inspired to him, you don't.
Really? I have a challenge for you:

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNWOING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

Again, why hasn't the Quran gone through a system of "authentication"?
Because it is mutawâtir - it has been unanimously transmitted that it is incoceivable that all sources would agree upon error. Likewise, here is a list of mutawâtir hadith:
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/Ind...ang=ENG&Type=3
But you just said that some things the companions wouldn't transmit because of lack of hearing.
I didn't say that. I said IF they didn't hear it properly they would not have transmitted it.
You seem to have the belief that all knowledge was passed through the companions first, is that true?
How else would it be passed on?

What I accept is the QUran only, therefore I believe that it is the Quran that only the Messenger spoke of and is the only thing that was inspired to he Messenger. That is it. I didn't get into detail with you about what I believe he has explained, but you should look at the Quran and see what the Quran has commanded the Messenger to say at times. And I don't believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of the PRophet, I believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of Allah.
So not only do you reject the hadith but you reject the Sunnah too?

How do you explain all the verses which command us to not only obey Allah swt but also to obey the directives of the Prophet pbuh? And what about the verse which tells us that the Prophet pbuh is our best example?

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Why are we instructed to follow the Prophet pbuh's pattern of conduct if the Qur'an is our only source? Why does the Qur'an say:

3:31 Say (O Muhammad pbuh to mankind): If you (really) love Allah THEN FOLLOW ME, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful

He didn't just say accept the Qur'an, it explcitly shows that love of Allah swt is not enough unless you follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Why does Allah swt endorse the judgements of the Prophet pbuh in the above verse and command all muslims to accept his decisions if the only thing we are commanded to accept is the Qur'an?

Why does the Qur'an tell us to accept what the Prophet pbuh gives and leave what he forbids? Why doesn't it say to accept and leave only what the Qur'an permits and forbids?

59:7 So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

Ok, well show me the Quran verse that says that Allah has protected the Quran and more.
Allah swt has protected ALL revelation to the Prophet pbuh:
15:9 Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
The Dhikr includes ALL revelation here. Even if you argue that it is only the Qur'an, since we need the sunnah to follow the Qur'an, then it necessitates that it is also preserved.
Please give me the Quran verse that says that the Saheeh haidths are divine.
Red-herring. The Qur'an states that the statements of the Prophet pbuh are divinely inspired - therefore if something is proven to be from him it is also divinely inspired.
You are missing the point of what I am saying... I am asking you point out the QUran verse that says that ALlah has protected these hadiths by a system that man had created.
Do you acknowledge that Allah swt has protected the Qur'an through man-made systems?
And who told you that they cannot?
Elementary logic. If the unanimous consensus of hadith scholars has always been erroneous, why don't you find this error for me and tell me what it is. Tell me which chain of narration for which hadith has this magical error that has eluded every hadith scholar for over a millenium. Note also that you are not saying that the entire consensus of hadith scholars agreed on one error for one hadith, you are saying that EVERY hadith has an ERROR!!!
And based on perception, back in the day most scientists accepted the "fact" that the Sun revolved around the Earth.
New scientific evidence arises, which is the sole reason why the consensus changes. New evidence never arises in hadith sciences. If there is no new evidence, the consensus will never change.

Quran verse please?
As above - the verse on dhikr.
So now your faith is based on numbers?
Yes, in this case 100%.

You have compeltely ignored my other questions to you - why?

Answer the following questions:
-how does one shorten their prayers when travelling?
-how many rak'ahs in fajr, dhuhr, asr, maghrib and isha?
-what exceptions apply to the criminal punishments in the Qur'an? Can we apply them to children and mentally insane? Can we cut off someone's hand for stealing a grain of salt?
-how much zakat must be paid and how many times?

Please answer and back everything up with Islamic sources.
:w:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-31-2006, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam Ahmed,



But you have 3.;D




1.) For me accepting the Quran is a matter of faith.
2.) I believe that the Quran is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness). Therefore everything that I believe as "divine" is stemmed from the teachings of the Quran.
3.) I believe that the Quran IS a hadith becuase it describes itself as a hadith.





Like I said, I believe that accepting the Quran is a matter of faith and that it is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness).



Please don't forget the Quran is the book of Wisdom.:)

salaam
:sl:

You didnt prove to me how one can diffrentiate between the Hadiths and the Quran . For all you know the Quran can contain some of the sayings of the Prophet. And by far the same people preserved the Quran that preserved the Hadith. To accept them for the Quran and reject them for Hadith is really self contradictory. Until you accept the Hadith you'll be going around in circles.

:w:

Ps- I think you would do well to read this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...nah-islam.html
Reply

Woodrow
05-31-2006, 08:02 PM
As a newbie I was one of those who thought the hadeeth was unimportant. To me the Qur'an was suffiecient (which it is). However, the more I learned of the Qur'an the more I discovered I did not know it as well as I thought. So, like any sensible person I looked to find how the Qur'an was understood throughout the ages. Then the light bulb, in my poor little bald head, flickered and I realised that there it was, The Hadeeth.
Reply

Mawaddah
05-31-2006, 08:43 PM
^ Which is what any intelligent person would do, unfortunately the Qur'aanis think that they are above such things.
Reply

M H Kahn
06-01-2006, 02:25 PM
The Quran and Hadith Records:
The Quran contains the words of Allah brought by Gabriel to Mohammed (pbuh), who has communicated the same to the mankind. As soon as the messages were communicated to Mohammed (pbuh), he learnt the same by heart, his companions followed suit and even the same were written down, too.This is why there is no coruption in the Quran. As regards Hadith, they passed from mouth to mouth for nearly 200 years after death of the prophet and then different individuals travelled the places, asked people if they knew of any saying of Mohammed (pbuh). Some people said that they knew that the prophet said so and so etc.........; they noted down the narrations and ultimately published in book form.

The Truth about Allah's Words and those of the Prophet:
We must believe that words of Allah cannot be self-contradictory, nor untrue. He has said that some verses in the Quran are allegorical and warned the mankind not to transgress the limit in attempting to know their meanings.
He has asked us to stick to the clear verses for our guidance. Similarly we are told in the Quran that the prophet never said anything untrue.

The Contradictions:
While there is not an iota of corruption in the Quran, there is every possibility that there might be rampant corruption in the Hadith books written by some humans with very good intentions from the hearsays claimed to have passed from the the prophet. We have to obey the prophet who was the ideal for the mankind and the demonstator of how to live in this world and how to worship Allah alone.

But there are many stories in the Hadith Books that contradict the Quran; and in that case if you accept the story of the Hadith Book, you reject the Quran and the result is that you are a disbeliever despite your devotion to all forms of worships, because you ascribe lies to both Allah and His prophet. For example, the Quran unequivocally says that there will be no intercession in the hereafter. Then we have allegorical verses that say that there will be intercession with permission of Allah. But where this intercession takes or will take place? Allah has not made us known the answer; and we are forbidden not to try to know the meanings of such allegorical verses. So we must stop here with the definite knowledge that there will be no intercession in the hereafter.

Now if you find a story in any man-made book that the prophet had said that none will go to paradise in the hereafter without his intercession or similar other stories, what is your duty? If you believe this as Hadith, you ascribe lies to both Allah and His prophet, because the prophet had taught us with the Quran that there will be no intercession in the hereafter. This is the definite truth and anything that contradits this glaring truth must be rejected as lies ascribed to the prophet; or esle you will be a disbeliever for rejecting the Quranic truth.

The Middle Way:
But there are true stories in Hadith Books too. A believer will accept only those stories of the books that do not contrdict the Quran as Hadith, and he must reject the contradicting stories as sheer lies. If you hesitate, you are a disbeliever despite your all worships and devotions; because you must have untainted faith first and only then the worships will work.

So we have to take the middle way accepting Quran in whole and those sayings recorded the man-made books that do not contradict the Quran. Anything that contradicts the Quran must be rejected as lies ascribed to the propohet without considering the greatness of the human who has written the book, as to err is human. But alas ! Most of today's so-called Muslims have resoted to various malpractices relying on the false stories mistakenly ascribed to the prophet. They are the disbelievers and the transgressors.
Reply

Ghazi
06-01-2006, 02:31 PM
:sl:

People who Reject Hadith will have to answer to allah for rejecting the sayings of the prophet and his sunnah, I put the question to them and ask, how can you call your self followers of the prophet when you reject his sayings.
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 02:40 PM
there is abundant beautiful hadith out there, but people chose to pick the weak and fabricated ones, just to being doubts in the hreats of others....
Reply

M H Kahn
06-01-2006, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
there is abundant beautiful hadith out there, but people chose to pick the weak and fabricated ones, just to being doubts in the hreats of others....
:sl:

[PIE]Scholars overtaken by satans spread story-type false sayings in their sermons and books written by them; and almost all such false stories are about sky-high greatness unauthentically (or even to the denial of the Quran) attributed to our prophet, and the result is the institution of prophet-worship alongside the worship of Allah.
[/PIE]
Reply

x Maz x
06-01-2006, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
I don't understand this verse. If the Prophet wasn't responsible for any of his words or desires, was he truly human?

Did the Muslims after the death of the Prophet Mohammed follow the hadiths?

The Quran simirarly relates "And he speaks not of his own desire. It is but a revelation to him"

"Assuredly, Allah conferred a great favor upon the believers when He sent among them a messnger from among themselves*. He rehearses unto them His revelations, purifies them and teaches them the Book and wisdom" [Surah Al-Imran 3:164]


* This shows that the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] was merely a human that Allah selected and he was verily the blessed man and the seal of Prophethood

By saying this, Allah is warning mankind that the Prophet [Pbuh] didnt speak for his own selfish desires but only followed Him and gave mankind guidence only from the Holy Quran and they were not his words but Allah's...

"We sent you not but as a mercy for all creatures" [Surah Al-Anbiya 21:107]

He was sent as a guider and mercy to all humankind..

SubhanAllah..[Glory be to Allah]...The hadith and Sunnah and the Quran all compliment eachother, none contradicts each another...The Quran is the word to mankind and the Prophet [Pbuh] is the man who showed us to enact these requirements [i.e. the performance of Salah]...The beleivers must believe that the words/utterances/occurances of the blessed Prophet [Pbuh] respresent the will of Allah therefore we must follow and obey them in every aspect of life...
The Prophet also said in his farewell address to follow the Quran and Sunnah and you shall be thr right guided people...
It honestly came out abit of a shock when reading this but Alhamdilullah i acknowledged the sheer ignorance in some of the users who blindly disregard the Sunnah...Allah guide them to the true path and make them repent and see the light!..
Hope that answers the questions young lass Peace be with you x
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 03:16 PM
result is the institution of prophet-worship alongside the worship of Allah.
can you prove this????

accusing muslims of worshipping Muhammad?
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 03:21 PM
there is beautiful hadith out there, and i would like to share some of it with some people on this forum. just to show that the hadith is not merely a saying said. we are not saying that ALL hadith is corresponding to the prophet, we know some of it is fabricated, we have already been thru this, but why do people wanna take those sayings and accuse the prophet of such a saying that contradicts the sound mind and so on.

a set of beautiful hadith is here for the pleasure of those who love the hadith. you cannot love the prophet if you dont know the hadith, that why those who dont, call him a MERE HUMAN, just anyone.......


http://www.myislamweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4154
Reply

x Maz x
06-01-2006, 03:27 PM
By saying 'mere human'...In other words he was selected by Allah out of the human kind and thus meaning he wasnt an angel or whatever...Verily he was the best of creation and a mercy to all mankind...
Hadith is ranked in its autinicity and reliability so therefore when making a final judgment regarding a topic one must look at a collection of ahadeeth and base their final verdict upon that InshAllah
Peace and hope that clarifies that :) x
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 03:30 PM
thanks for the clarification :)
Reply

M H Kahn
06-01-2006, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:
People who Reject Hadith will have to answer to allah for rejecting the sayings of the prophet and his sunnah, I put the question to them and ask, how can you call your self followers of the prophet when you reject his sayings.
:sl:
If Hadiths are the sayings of Mohammed (pbuh), then there can be no class in them as he never told anything untrue. So, rejecting the Hadiths is like rejecting the Quranic ordainment " to obey the prophet". But you must reject any writing that contradicts the Quran as false stories that have stealthily made place in books of Hadith. Astonishingly almost all these false stories have been invented to institute prophet worship in Islam. The result is that like the worship of three entities in Christianity, Muslims have today started worshipping two entities.
Reply

Ghazi
06-01-2006, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
:sl:
If Hadiths are the sayings of Mohammed (pbuh), then there can be no class in them as he never told anything untrue. So, rejecting the Hadiths is like rejecting the Quranic ordainment " to obey the prophet". But you must reject any writing that contradicts the Quran as false stories that have stealthily made place in books of Hadith. Astonishingly almost all these false stories have been invented to institute prophet worship in Islam. The result is that like the worship of three entities in Christianity, Muslims have today started worshipping two entities.
:sl:

I don't worship to entities, I only worship allah, the prophet is his slave just like every other jinn and man.
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 03:46 PM
this claim about worshipping Muhammad is out of its place.

how can someone believe that there is no God except Allah and Muhammad as his messanger, worship Muhammad?????????
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-01-2006, 03:57 PM
MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

:w:
Reply

M H Kahn
06-01-2006, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

:w:
A Muslim mus believe that anything that contradicts the Quran is not Hadith.
Reply

x Maz x
06-01-2006, 04:10 PM
Akhi Ansar Al'-Adal, Is there any point of allowing this thread to remain open? The issue has been addressed in a civilised manner Alhamdilullah and the argument implying hadeeth are fake has been debunked so therefore I think to ensure this doesnt reel out of control you should close this thread...InshAllah those disregarding the hadeeth unveiling a level of ignorance within themselves will open their eyes and see whats haaq...Peace and blessings be upon you all x
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
MH Kahn,

Your myth that hadith were only recorded 200 years after the Prophet pbuh is debunked here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
Please read instead of repeating the same claims that have been refuted.

:w:
masha'allah great post

mind if i borrow it??
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 04:12 PM
if u close the thread then no one will be able to express and learn
Reply

x Maz x
06-01-2006, 04:17 PM
In my humble opinion, I feel as the argument concerning the hadeeth being false is getting weaker by the minute and each post is just going around in circles...The same issues which have already been discussed keep arising...The brother has already provided that link as above and I dont think there is any point leaving this to remain open..InshAllah if any clever clogs does come to think up of any 'argument' or 'sufficent' proof that hadeeth are false then take it up with the breda via Pm inshAllah
Peace x
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-01-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
A Muslim mus believe that anything that contradicts the Quran is not Hadith.
:sl:

Brother, I dont intend to get personal, but can you please tell me if you have any knowledge in the Hadith Sciences? As in do you have any Ijaazah? If so, from what university and who were your teachers?

If not, then its best that you dont say things about Hadith that you have no knowledge of. A reminder to myself first and foremost, and then to everyone else.

Hadiths and the Quran cannot contradict each other as a rule. Therefore, if something seems contradictory there are other interpretations that the Hadith Science scholors can work out.

:w:
Reply

al-fateh
06-01-2006, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Anyone care to speculate?
most of whom i met are from Pakistan and India....

i might be wrong, but most are from there.

i dunno why
Reply

x Maz x
06-01-2006, 07:34 PM
Yano when i read this, people allowing hadeeth I was real shock, its all new to meh..Allah guide them people!..Peace and Ameen x
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al-fateh
06-01-2006, 07:42 PM
i really dont know brother, but it is more in the eastern part of Asia
Reply

Halima
06-01-2006, 09:38 PM
:sl:




  • A hadîth can be defined as a reported statement, action, or tacit approval of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as well as anything thas been reported about his physical description and character.


  • We know the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) by way of the hadîth. The word “sunnah” literally means a set of practices or a mode of behavior. Like the Qur’ân, the Sunnah is revelation that Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and like the Qur’ân, it has been meticulously preserved. However, unlike the Qur’ân, it is not the direct, literal word of Allah.


  • It is obligatory for Muslims to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him). First of all, it is revelation from Allah who says about His Prophet Muhammad: “He does not speak of his own desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him.” [Sûrah al-Najm:3]


  • Moreover, Allah orders the believers to obey the Messenger. Allah says: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ':59]


  • One of the reasons that Allah sent human Messengers to mankind is so they could be living, practical examples of how people should submit to Allah and worship Him. Allah says: “You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in Allah's praise.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb:21]


www.islamtoday.com
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al-fateh
06-01-2006, 09:44 PM
thanks Halima
Reply

x Maz x
06-02-2006, 09:23 AM
the Egyptian scientist, who later claimed himself to be a prophet without book.
The delclaration of faith states that one must tesitfy that he/she believes that Allah is one and Muhammed is his last messnger and servant so how does that one work out? Any Muslim should realise that this man is just chatting hobogoblish and ignore him right? Peace x
Reply

x Maz x
06-02-2006, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
Corrupt Hadiths have corrupted Islam from a monotheist religion to a polytheist one where now the prophet, graves of good people and hypocrite saints are also worshipped alongside the woprship of Allah.

Ellaborate on your perspective of a 'corrupt hadith'
Yes the second point is blatently SHIRK, and I am sure no hadith promotes such a message Astaghfirullah it is blatently shown in the Quran how it is a the worse sin and how Allah dislikes it!

Peace x
Reply

al-fateh
06-02-2006, 02:43 PM
please keep this thread open, there is alot of what i am learning here.

thanks
Reply

Muslim Soldier
06-02-2006, 03:00 PM
Some people reject hadith because they are doubtful

I know the sahihs are very authentic but there are some traditions that, well, raise questions.

And there always is the question of distortion to the hadith.
Reply

al-fateh
06-02-2006, 03:39 PM
quoted from one of the members on MyIslamWeb.com

same argument of rejecting the hadith as well

Salam,

It is the duty of every soul to get the knowldge before rejecting or accepting the truth.

Many among us dont study Quran as it is supposed to be, neither they study Hadees in depth.

I can post a hadees a day which you may find weird, contradciting to quran, contradicting to the chracter of our beloved Rasool allah (Apbuh), and non-ethical.

ofourse there are very valid and valuable Ahadees in the same books.

Mixture of truth with false is the key to misguide anyone, just like Bible.

If I come to you drunk, invite you to a night club, you will sure know that i am not a person you wanna hang around. But if i change my appearance, keep a beard, hold a rosary in my hand, invite you to masjid, sure you will think I am a religious person. To misguide you I will be a stupid person to invite you to nightclub, isnt it?

And if I invite you to masjid that doesnot mean i am the most haonorable, respectable and guided person who is doing this under the will of Allah Subhana wa taala?

All praise is due to Allah,alone.

http://www.myislamweb.com/forum/show...?t=4094&page=4
Reply

- Qatada -
06-02-2006, 05:22 PM
Thread re-opened.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-13-2006, 11:36 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by ameen

Originally Posted by Ähmed
That is your [mis]interpretation. The Quran preaches prayer and since according to your [mis]interpretation that is ALL that the Prophet preached, one can pray in any way he likes, because the Quran does not mention how to pray.
actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc. So No - a person cannot just pray 'any way they like' - as they must be fulfilling these criteria for prayer mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly, the manner of performing hajj is also outlined in the Qur'an. Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.
Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.

Your problem is that you dont understand exactly what the Ahadith are and the rigorous system by which they are classified. Hadith rejectors are simply laymen who come across a hadith that they dont understand and thus they reject it because it doesnt make any sense to them.


Tell me what is the point of mentioning the Quran and then the Hikmah? If the Quran was the only thing to be followed, it would have been enough for Allah to have said "He has sent down to you the Book whereby he instructs you".
again if you look in the Qur'an, you will find that Allah refers to the Qur'an as being a Book full with Wisdom and Guidance. So it is no surprise that Allah refers to the Revelation as 'wisdom' being sent down to the Prophet:


"These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom." (3:58)


Do you see just how clear this verse is? It is clearly referring to THE QUR'AN - as being full with 'wisdom' - from the All-Wise. So when Allah says '...revealed to you the Book and wisdom' - it is referring to the Qur'anic wisdom from Allah.
Its clear but it doesnt prove your point in the least.

53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53: 4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.


These verses prove that whatever the Prophet said was an inspiration from Allah. Or are you saying that when the Prophet spoke he spoke only the Quran and nothing else?!

16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

The verse above makes it clear that there is not only the revelation (Quran) but there are also explanations that the Prophet has to give! These are the Ahadith. If there was no need for the Quran to be explained, this Book would have been revealed upon a mountain and man could have taken and understood in any which he desired. This is the Divine Wisdom behind sending a Prophet, so that men can see and learn from him the Book of Allah. This one verse refutes the claims of the Hadith rejectors that the Quran is all we need and proves that the role of the Prophet was not only to convey the message but to explain it as well.

The hadith were written down at the time of the Prophet as well. Ali r.a. asked the Prophet if he be allowed to write down his sayings that are other than the Quran and the Prophet gave him permission and this he and others wrote it down just like the Quran was written down.
The truth remains that most, if not ALL of the hadith were NOT WRITTEN or compiled during the time of the Prophet. So the hadith which are followed by Muslims today were not in the form they are in today, nor do they have any authority from the Prophet, or from Allah, to be a source of Divine Guidance or Law alongside the Qur'an.
You fail to comment on what was provided and you repeat your erroneous claim again! The link
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth
put forth the myths that hadith rejectors have and it refuted them one by one in detail. I suggest you read that and reply to that instead of repeating your erroneous claim again.

Imam Bukhari was NOT the first person to write down the Ahadith or compile them.
I know that he is not the first compiler of hadith. I used him as an example because most Muslims take his collection of hadith to be the most reliable hadith-collection available. So I pointed out that EVEN HIS collection, which is considered most reliable, was compiled OVER TWO HUNDRED years after the Prophet died. This is easily verified just by looking at Imam Bukhari's date of birth (two hundred years after Prophet's death) !
You are again just simply repeating your erroneuos claims! This was responded to in my last response. Here it is again. Read it this time:

Originally Posted by kadafi
Myth #1 Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

This misconception is based on the hadeeth mentioned in Saheeh Muslim (Second authenthic Hadeeth collection):
It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that. (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)
Those who use this hadeeth and argue that no ahadeeth were written are ignorant of the historical temporary prohibition of this statement. The temporary prohibition was meant as a precautionary step to ensure the correctness of the word of Allaah as distinguished from the words of the Prophet himself, as both came from the lips of the Prophet. This is one view and several other views are mentioned in the commentary on Saheeh Muslim by Imaam Al-Nawawi (May Allaah have mercy on him)


Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:
Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Alee (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth.

The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.
This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”
There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.
One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:
Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)
Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:
I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)
Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)
Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)
Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:
Preserve Knowledge
Abdullaah then asked,
how should it be preserved?
The Prophet replied,
by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)
In another report, he says,
I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’
The Prophet replied,
If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)
He also says:
I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)
After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said:
I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)
These narrations attest that ahadeeth were written during the era of the Prophet.

I will list here the prominent compilations written in the first and second century, some written by the sahabas (the Prophet’s companions), their students (taabi’een), and the students of the taabi’een (tabaa'at-taabi'een).

Some of the compilations during the era of the Prophet:

The Scripts of Abu Hurairah

Hasan ibn Amr reports that once:
Abu Hurairah took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahadeeth of the Prophet. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Baari)
The Script of Abdullaahi ibn Amr

Mujahid, his student, said
I went to Abdullaah ibn Amr and took in hand a script placed beneath his cushion. He stopped me. I said, You never save anything from me. He replied:
This is the Saadiqah (the Script of Truth). It is what I heard from the Prophet. No other narrator intervenes between him and myself. If this script, the Book of Allaah, and wahaz (his agricultural land) are secured for me, I would never care about the rest of the world. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm)
The Script of Anas

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of his students, says:
When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)
The Script of Alee

Alee said:
I have not written anything from the Prophet except the Qur’aan and what is contained in this script. (Saheeh Bukhaaree- Book of Jihaad)
Ibn Sa'd reports that Alee stood in the mosque and delivered a lecture then he asked the people:
Who will purchase ‘knowledge’ for one dirham only?
meaning, who wants to learn ahadeeth should buy writing paper for one dirham and come to him for dictation.

It is reported that Haarith al-A’war bought some paper and came to him:
So, Alee wrote for him a lot of knowledge. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
Scripts of Jaabir

Qataadah, one of Jaabir’s students, says,
I remember the script of Jaabir more than I remember Surah al-Baqarah (Qur’aan). (Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb)
Scripts of Ibn Abbaas

Musa ibn Uqbah says:
Kuraib left with us a camel load of Ibn Abbaas’s books. When Alee ibn Abdullaah ibn Abbaas would need any book from them, he wrote to Kuraib, ‘Send to me such and such books.’ He would then transcribe the book and send to him one of the two copies. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
The pupils of Ibn Abbaas would copy these scripts and read them over to him to confirm the correctness of the copies. (Tirmidhi)

Sometimes Ibn Abbaas would narrate the ahadeeth to his pupils while they would record them. (Daarimi)

The compilations of the First Century:

1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma’dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih,
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn ‘Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn Abdullaah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa’d (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwaab of Sha’bi,
12. Books of Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-Aliyah
14. Book of Sa’id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of Umar ibn ‘Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

The compilations of the second century (note that only the prominent ones are listed due length) :

1. Book of Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
2. Muwatta of Maalik ibn Anas (93-179)
3. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi’b (80-158)
4. Maghaazi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
5. Musnad of Rabi’ ibn Sabih (d. 160)
6. Book of Sa’id ibn Abi ‘Arubah (d. 156)
7. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
8. Jami’ Sufyan ath-Thauri (97-161)
9. Jami’ Ma’mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
10. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Awzaa’I (88-157)
11. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak (118-181)
12. Book of Hushaim ibn Bashir (104-183)
13. Book of Jarir ibn ‘Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
14. Book of Abdullaah ibn Wahb (125-197)
15. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
16. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
17. Tafsîr of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
18. Book of Musa ibn ‘Uqbah (d. 141)
19. Book of Ash’ath ibn ‘Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
20. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
21. Book of Yahya ibn Sa’id Ansari (d. 143)
22. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
23. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
24. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
25. Book of ‘Abdur-Rahman al-Mas’udi (d. 160)
26. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
27. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
28. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
29. Al-Gharaaib by Shu’bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
30. Books of Abdul-Aziz ibn ‘Abdullaah al-Majishun (d. 164)
31. Books of Abdullaah ibn ‘Abdullaah ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
32. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
33. Books of Abdullaah ibn Lahi’ah (d. 147)
34. Jami’ Sufyan ibn ‘Uyainah (d. 198)
35. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah (d. 150)
36. Maghaazi of Mu’tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
37. Musannaf of Waki’ ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
38. Musannaf of Abdur-Razzaaq ibn Hammam (136-221)
39. Musnad of Zaid ibn Alee (76-122)
40. Books of Imaam Shaafi’i (150-204)

The following are available today in printed form:

1. Al-Muwatta by Imaam Maalik.
2. Kitaab-ul-AAthaar by Imaam Abu Haneefah.
3. Musannaf by ‘Abdur-Razzaaq. This book has been published in eleven big volumes.
4. As-Seerah by Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
5. Kitaab az-Zuhd by ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
6. Kitaab az-Zuhd by Waki’ ibn Jarraah (3 volumes).
7. Al-Musnad by Zaid ibn Alee (76-122).
8. Sunan of Imaam Shaafi’i.
9. Musnad of Shaafi’i.
10. Siyar of Awzaa’i (88-157).
11. Musnad of ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak.
12. Musnad of Abu Daawood Tayalisi (d. 204).
13. Ar-Radd ‘ala Siyaril-Awzaa’i by Imaam Abu Yoosuf.
14. Al-Hujjah ‘ala Ahlil-Madeenah by Imaam Muhammad ibn Hasan Shaibaani.
15. Kitaabul-Umm by Imaam Shaafi’i.
16. Al-Maghaazi by Waqidi (130-206) (4 volumes).

It is an attack on the MILLIONS of scholors of the past 1400 years because you are claiming that their works were futile. Millions of people cannot agree upon error.
Millions of people cannot agree upon error? Are you sure about that?

Millions of Christians agree that Isa alayhis-salam is the 'Son of God' . So, have these 'millions of people' agreed on Truth? or have they agreed upon 'error' ?


wsalam
Your analogy is flawed for so many reasons. You have mistaken my argument for the fallacy of appeal to authority or majority. This is only considered a fallacy when the person cited is not an authority in that field. So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.

http://www.islamicboard.com/332656-post80.html

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-15-2006, 04:38 PM
:sl:
actually, if you read the Qur'an, you will find that the Qur'an actually does mention the important aspects of Salah
Show me where it describes Eid. Show me where it describes the Eid salah or even says that Muslims have such a celebration as Eid. I guess you won't be celebrating Eid with us.
, including the prostration, the bowing, the standing, qiblah, wudhu etc.
The problem with your argument is that you are interpreting all these practices in light of hadith. So your position is riddled with inconsistencies. For instance, if another hadith rejector came to you and said, "Salah just means to have a connection with God. So long as there is a connection in your heart you are fine; there is no need for all that formal prayers", what could you say in response? In the same manner they could reinterpret all these practices you mentioned and thus strip Islam of its most basic foundation!
Furthermore, the manner of Salah is more easily and accurately passed on through generations, than are the words recorded in the hadith, because they were mostly passed on by 'mouth' - so their accuracy deteriorates throughout the decades.
False again. You ignore the evidence from early compilations. The famous compilers of the Sunan and Sahih compilations were actually building upon the efforts of the thousands of scholars preceding them. Br. Ahmed has been so kind as to provide you with a list of hadith compilations from the first century hijrah and even from the companions themselves. The accuracy of the hadith does not deteriorate since it is affirmed by numerous transmitters.

Remember when you made the ridiculous claim in the other thread that a typical chain in Sahih Bukhari has 25 people and you were soundly refuted when confronted with the fact that it actually has only 5 or 6? I would repeat the same advice I gave you then to educate yourself about these basics.

Do you see just how clear this verse is? It is clearly referring to THE QUR'AN - as being full with 'wisdom' - from the All-Wise. So when Allah says '...revealed to you the Book and wisdom' - it is referring to the Qur'anic wisdom from Allah.
If you claim that there are no revelations to the Porphet Muhammad pbuh outside the Qur'an, then I have a challenge for you...

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNOWING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

The truth remains that most, if not ALL of the hadith were NOT WRITTEN or compiled during the time of the Prophet.
Actually the list Br. Ahmed quoted has the names of those companions who narrated the MOST Ahadith! Those mentioned are far above any others in the amount they narrated and they had scripts which they recorded on.

Also, the fact that we need the sunnah to understand the Qur'an NECESSITATES that it was preserved by Allah swt.
Millions of people cannot agree upon error? Are you sure about that?
What you're claiming is that the research done by millions of scholars on the hadith was flawed. You're claiming that they were all in error. I'd like to see this magical error in some hadith that has apparently elluded every hadith scholar for over a millenia. In fact, you're not claiming that they all made just one error. You're claiming that they unanimously agreed upon BILLIONS OF ERRORS!
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.
:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
10-16-2006, 08:55 PM
Assalamu alaikum,

I hope me responding in this thread will not be going against the truce I have with Ansar-al-Adl as this thread is a debate thread. If it is, please let me know.

I will try to refute all the claims that are made about certain Qur'anic verses, and show how clearly the correct understanding should be, with the will of Allah, the Most Wise. However I do not have the time to refute all of them in one go, so I will do them one by one. Here is the first one...

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

If you think this verse is saying that there is no need for information beyond the Qur'an, then you haven't read the entire Qur'an:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

If al that we need was the verses of the Qur'an, then why would Allah swt ordain for the Prophet pbuh to explain what had been revealed? This clearly means that the explanations are themselves divinely ordained by Allah.
First let us establish that the 'zikr' (reminder) refers exclusively to the Qur'an

And We sent down to you the Reminder( * ) to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

( * ) Zikr = reminder / citation / recollection / mention

The reminder (zikr) refers to the Qur'an, as we also see from other verses:

This We recite to you from the revelation and the wise reminder (zikr). [Qur'an 3:58]

A Scripture that has been sent down to you, so let there not be any burden in your chest from it, that you may warn with it; and a reminder (zikr) to the believers. [Qur'an 7:2]

And they said: "O you upon whom the Reminder (zikr) has been sent down, you are crazy." "Why not bring us the Angels if you are of the truthful ones?" We do not send down the Angels except with truth, and then they would have no more delay. Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder (zikr), and indeed it is We who will preserve it. [Qur'an 15:6-9]

So the 'zikr' is none other then the Qur'an. Now let us look at the next bit.

And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear( * ) to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

( * ) tubayyina

Does this word mean give additional details? The translation you give says 'explain', however we shall see that the Qur'anic translation of the word shows us that the english 'explain' is not an accurate translation.

Let us look at another verse which uses the same word:

And God took the covenant of those who were given the Scripture: "You will make it clear (latubayyinunna) to the people and not conceal it (taktumuuna)." But they threw it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased. [Qur'an 3:187]

In the above, Allah tells us how others who were given the Scripture and were entrusted 'to make it known' (tubayinah) to people what was given to them, and not conceal it (taktumuna). 'taktumuna' is used to mean 'to conceal and hide', and is used as a direct opposite to 'tubayyina'.

We see from the above, that Qur'anic meaning of the word 'tubayyina' is to 'disclose' or 'let it be known' and not 'give additional details' as you are suggesting.

Further we read the following verse, where the word is used once again in similiar manner and the meaning of it is further elucidated:

O people of the Scripture, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you (yu bayyinu lakum) much of what you were hiding from the Scripture, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book. [Qur'an 5:15]

Thus we see that the Qur'an was sent to the Messenger to 'expose' or 'disclose' much of what the people of the Scripture are hiding. This further helps us understand the meaning of this word as per Qur'anic use.

Finally, another verse, further reinforcing this meaning:

There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way (qad tabayyana alrrushdu mina alghayyi). [Qur'an 2:256]

The word has the root ba-ya-na. Which gives us the meanings:

"To be or become manifest, evident." - A Dictionary and Glosarry of the Koran by J.Penrice pp-21
"Be evident, render clear." - Arabic English Dictionary by F. Steingass pp-155
"Manifest, bring into view, disclose." - Al Mawrid Arabic English Dictionary pp-256
"To show, Manifest" - Al Asri Arabic English Dictionary pp 85
"To be or become plain, Evident, come out, visible, to announce." - Hans Wehr Arabic-Eng. Dictionary pp-87

(Note, I have not verified the above references my self but trust it to be correct)

Now we can understand fully, using the Qur'an the following verse:

And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear (tubayyina) to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [Qur'an 16:44]

It is saying that the reminder (the Qur'an) has been sent down so that the Messenger shall let it be known to all people (tubayyina), instead of keeping it to himself.

Peace unto you.
Reply

AceOfHearts
10-16-2006, 11:36 PM
Now let us have a look at your following point:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Really? I have a challenge for you:

66:3 And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told thee this?' He said, 'I WAS TOLD OF IT BY THE ALL-KNWOING, THE ALL-AWARE.'

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.
A revealed scripture, such as the Qur'an, the Torah, or Injeel, do not have to be the only sort of inspiration to its respective messenger. We see that people of the past have received knowledge, or inspiration, yet those inspirations were not parts of any Scripture. Prophet Yusuf's father said:

He said: "I merely complain my grief and sorrow to God, and I know from God what you do not know." [Qur'an 12:86]

This knowledge he received was not part of a Scripture.

Prophet Yusuf was also given the 'knowledge' of intepreting dreams [12:6].
However this knowledge given to him was not part of a Scripture.

Maryam was met by an angel who spoke to her on behalf of Allah, however there is no indication that those words uttered by the angel were to be part of any scripture bieng revealed to Maryam. [19:16-21]

The Prophet may well have been given knowledge, such as the actions of his wives outside of the Qur'an, however that knowledge given by Allah, and the revelation of the verses of the Qur'an, are two very different things. That is because the Qur'an is a Scripture (kitab), consisting of revealed verses, these are revealed to be part of a complete guide (the Qur'an attests to it bieng a complete book of guide). However other knowledges to the Prophet may not be in the form of verses.

That is why the status and authority of Allah's scriptures are far special and beyond these communications made to certain individuals, prophets or messengers, in terms of its exclusive status as a complete guide consisting of revealed verses for mankind. We establish that the Qur'an, is a complete book through its verses.

"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed( * )?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. [Qur'an 6:114-116]

( * ) mufassal = detailed / explained / eleborated

for We sent the Scripture down to you explaining everything, and as guidance and mercy and good news to those who submit to God. [Qur'an 16:89]

This revelation is no fabrication: it is a confirmation of the truth of what was sent before it; and explenation of everything; a guide and a blessing for those who believe. [Qur'an 12:111]


To reiterate, the Qur'an does not have to contain all that is inspired to the messenger. It will only contain verses which Allah reveals as verses, to be part of the complete Scripture - what is to be part of the guide for mankind.

The fact that the Prophet may have received knowledge outside of the Qur'an, does not do anything in the way to proove that we need any source other than the Qur'an, because the Qur'an tells us it is complete and fully detailed. Any other knowledge or inspiration to the Prophet, is not neccessary for guidance (which is why it is not in the Qur'an).

In conclusion, we have seen that the Qur'an is the only guide for mankind (because Allah says it is so), regardless of any other inspiration given to the Messenger (such the knowledge of the his wives actions).
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-16-2006, 11:57 PM
Assalamu Alaikum everybody reading this thread

this subject interests me because I have been confronted in my own beliefs by those whom are not inclined to adhere to every ahadith

there are a few points I wish to make

First is that when the Prophet (Peach and Allah's blessing with Him) is in that time of being able to receive Qur'an, He is necessarily attuned mentally all night and all day to receiving other teaching in Allah. It is an insult to the Prophet to not be in due regard of every teaching He gave us.

Second it is within my own knowledge that, now that Shari'ah is within Arc of Covenant the matter can be readily clarified. This is simply because there was a specific moment in time at which all the Law placed into Arc of Covenant before that minute, were accessed by Arch Angel Gabriel for Qur'an to the the instrument of learning for; while after that minute the transmission of further Laws which were placed into Arc of Covenant became by a different individual Angel, whose name can not be spoken, (therein is the reasoning for Mohammed having been unable to reveal, and also the clue to what sort of being actualise transmitting the Law to Mohammed).

Assalamu Alaikum rvq
Reply

Goku
10-17-2006, 12:12 AM
Some hadith are not very.....pleasent
Reply

Hijrah
10-17-2006, 01:28 AM
Some Hadith I find...confusing

But the point is if you deny an authentic Hadith, you're a kafir.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-17-2006, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Goku
Some hadith are not very.....pleasent
:sl:

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them. That is why the Hadith Rejectors reject. They come across a Hadith that doesnt make sense to them, so they say, "It doesnt make sense to me, therefore it has to be false". They are fooling themselves and speaking about which they have no knowledge and letting their ignorance decieve them.

They claim they follow the Quran, but they are the ones who are the furthest away from following it!

And the irony of the matter is that the Messenger of Allah told us in Hadiths that there will be people rejecting Hadiths and he forbade us from doing as they do.

Dawud :: Book 40 : Hadith 4588

Narrated AbuRafi':

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book we have followed.
But the point is if you deny an authentic Hadith, you're a kafir.
Shaykh Yasir Qadhi said on the matter over at AlMaghrib Forums with regards to the "Submitters":

Salaam Alaikum

Yes, this group that you mentioned (the "Submitters") are not Muslims, by unanimous consensus of the Ummah. They believe that the Sunnah is not a source of law, and thus reject the very concept of following it. They pray three times a day, with only ruku/sujood (i.e., only what the Quran says). They consider it shirk to follow the Prophet (saw).

Hence this group should be treated as non-Muslim

Wa Salaam
Yasir

Source
To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.

49: 1. O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allah and His Messenger (), and fear Allah. Verily! Allah is All-Hearing All-Knowing.

One should say, when he doesnt understand a Hadith or is confronted with one that seemingly contradicts others that he will research into the matter more, and ask the scholors and not go with what he himself desires. One should not do as the Hadith rejectors do, and claim that the hadith is false. That is putting oneself forward before Allah and His Messenger.



:w:
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-17-2006, 02:56 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

Actually the definition of kafir is that of not having a causal body; whereas there are many persons whom are simply not informed of ahadith.

Even a Shaytan has a causal body, or a Soul, although they are at cause of a different density, a different ultimate evolutionary trajectory, and have a markedly different internal comprehension which causes that they are unable to discern that the Jinn are not their own self. That is why they generally, along with all the false work of the Jinn, are collectively knownable only by the name Shaytan. A Kafir is less than a shaytan, yet might be able to learn to comprehend the world more liken to a Human, but at that it is dangerous to assume a Human comprehension of any non-believer. By Human comprehension I am referring to that of accepting a truly Human account in Allah. Yet while we can not assume such of kafir we can train kafir to accept accountiblity as a mental process, by connecting such with fear of dying.

All that stated it is certainly true that many kafir are far more likely to want to try to refute any ahadith. The act of attempting to refute hadith is certainly an act of kafr, that is causal to kafir becoming. Thereby any manifestation of kafr, even, and especially among true believers, can be regarded as causing a kafir to exist. Therefore when we fail to believe in every ahadith we could by accident cause that we manifest becoming responsible for the entire existance of a kafir, only by a single act of kafr.

However, we can accurately state that there could be a specific ahadith, or portion of, which we find difficulty in sustaining total belief in simply because we have not yet experienced empirical evidence that verifies it irrefutably.

Saying that you are finding that you can not yet convince your entire being of a specific Prophesy is not an acting kafr, only so long as you are truly working towards convincing your entire being, and are also truly not yet within actual worldy evidence of how such could be true. There may be a part of you which truly manifests genuine belief that all ahadith must be true, yet another part which might have experienced a shaytan's efforts to refute ahadith and so is effected by black magic and uncertain in what is real. In that case the experience of much of ahadith being true should be enough to convince that all of is true, and so there is the kafr of believing in shaytan. But for any persons for whom Qur'an is evidenced, that evidence is also evidence of all of ahadith if their attitude of respect towards the Prophet Mohammed, with Peace and Allah's blessing, is that correct.

So what I am saying is that if you are truly a Muslim then you are in kafr to disbelieve any ahadith. But if you are a true believer in One God, whom is not yet within experience of the Mohammed's Prophethood as real, then it can not be kafr to want to find scientific evidence in ahadith before manifesting belief in.

In between being so convinced as to be Mujahideen, and being a non-Muslim believer in One God, there are many true believers whom occassionally fall in mental doubt of those difficult among hadith. Where that mental doubt is kafr, so causal to kafir, depends upon whether they act intentionally within that doubt in true belief.

To sit reading and find that you are so in fear of any specific ahadith that you are actualising ignorance of its truth, is a matter between you and Allah, around what your mind desires to believe instead of the ahadith. There are times when fear has caused persons to ignore the empirical evidence in front of them, and when that occurs they find that what they manifest could be as bad as kafr if they honestly internally made any effort to mentally disprove the ahadith. But if any persons sustain a conviction that all the ahadith must be true: and within that their mind registers that there is a particular ahadith which they are NOT YET UNDERSTANDING; then they need to sustain internal honesty in that respect and they will remain free of kafr.

You can find then that the issue is quite complex; but really only complex because of the totality of the variation amid the Human experience BEFORE entering Islam. Those responsibilities we bring with us from prior to conversion, and reversion, (reconversion), are likely to make us fear ourself overly and then to accidentally manifest falls to shaytan and the kafr of shaytan. That is why we are so often in Prayer and reciting/reading Qur'an.

If you are in doubt about all of ahadith, there is no reason not to use Prayer and speaking aloud an Surah of Qur'an which you are in total certainty of, as the means for seeking verification in any hadith which your mind could be, by accident of history, in doubt in.

Assalam Alaikum rvq
Reply

ameen
10-17-2006, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Why does the Qur'an tell us to accept what the Prophet pbuh gives and leave what he forbids? Why doesn't it say to accept and leave only what the Qur'an permits and forbids?

59:7 So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

salam,

you have just used the above verse to try and prove that the Hadith are a Divine source of Law and Guidance, alongside the Holy Qur'an, which all Muslims are obliged to follow.

If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet:


" What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger from the people of the townships - it is for Allah, His Messenger, the relatives, the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you ; and whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. " - (59:07)


So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war! Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt to trick the Muslim world into believing that the Hadith have some Divine Authority from Allah to be followed like the Holy Qur'an.


wsalam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-17-2006, 06:10 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Companion
I hope me responding in this thread will not be going against the truce I have with Ansar-al-Adl as this thread is a debate thread.
It is not against our agreement.
and show how clearly the correct understanding should be, with the will of Allah, the Most Wise.
Unfortunately for you, since you reject Ahâdîth, you lack any objective criterion as to what constitutes the 'correct' understanding' and what does not; it is no more than your thoughts since you yourself concede that you lack even a basic understanding of Mustalah Al-Hadith.
First let us establish that the 'zikr' (reminder) refers exclusively to the Qur'an
This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:
21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.
The reminder (zikr) refers to the Qur'an, as we also see from other verses:
This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation! Many of the references you cite are indeed references to the Qur'an. But it is inherently fallacious to evince from such a premise that the reference is exclusive to the Qur'an.
( * ) tubayyina

Does this word mean give additional details?
This is where some basic linguistics comes into play. The word mentioned in the ayat is لتبين meaning to provide البيانelucidation, clarification, explanation in order to make it clear. The notion that it refers to mere deliverance of the message is exploded in the following paragraph which I quote directly in arabic:
{ وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم }.
ففي هذه الآية الكريمة نصر صريح أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم انزل عليه القرآن وكلف بوظيفة البيان لهذا القرآن، هذا البيان المذكور في هذه الآية الكريمة: هو السنة المطهرة.
{And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.}

And in this noble verse is clear evidence that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the Qur'an revealed to him and was given the duty of explaining (bayân) this Qur'an; this explanation mentioned in this noble verse is the Pure Sunnah.
How would there be so many classical tafseers entitled Bayân Al-Qur'ân if it only meant conveying or disclosing it?? The word had always been known to carry the meaning of elucidation.
The translation you give says 'explain', however we shall see that the Qur'anic translation [sic!!] of the word shows us that the english 'explain' is not an accurate translation.
The translation is established on the simple basis of the arabic language which is known to even the layman, and is in concordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Let us look at another verse which uses the same word:

And God took the covenant of those who were given the Scripture: "You will make it clear (latubayyinunna) to the people and not conceal it (taktumuuna)." But they threw it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased. [Qur'an 3:187]

In the above, Allah tells us how others who were given the Scripture and were entrusted 'to make it known' (tubayinah) to people what was given to them, and not conceal it (taktumuna). 'taktumuna' is used to mean 'to conceal and hide', and is used as a direct opposite to 'tubayyina'.
THis verse actually constitutes a DECISIVE REFUTATION of your position! The People of the Book here are condemned for failing to pass the message to THEIR PEOPLE. It is not Prophets being referred to here who failed their duty. It is ordinary people. They were not concealing something that God had revealed by means of divine inspiration to their souls. NO, they were concealing the knowledge of their religion that they possesed, i.e. THE SCHOLARS. They failed to TEACH their people and concealed the KNOWLEDGE of the religion from them. Thus, the word here again refers to teaching and explaining the religious teachings.

Also, you commit another logical fallacy here in that if someone were to say to you "Don't sit here, run away!" It does not mean that run is the opposite of sit, rather stand is more accurately described as the opposite of sit. Your conclusion is clearly unwarranted here.
We see from the above, that Qur'anic meaning of the word 'tubayyina' is to 'disclose' or 'let it be known' and not 'give additional details' as you are suggesting.
WRONG. 'naba' is the word you are thinking of and that is why Prophets are Anbiya, sing. Nabi, because they announce, disclose, and make known to the people the impending day of judgement. The word tubayyina means to clarify, elucidate, explicate, explain something so that it is made clear. It is the Sunnah of the Prophet saws which clarifies the Qur'an in both his actions and sayings.

Now here is an ayat for you to think about:

يا أيها الذين آمنوا إن جاءكم فاسق بنبأ فتبينوا أن تصيبوا قوما بجهالة فتصبحوا على ما فعلتم نادمين
49:6 O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, clarify/scrutinize/examine it (FATABAYYANU) , lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.

How could this word possibly be translated as 'disclosed' here? That would actually give the opposite meaning! If a rebellious person comes to you with gossip, you are NOT supposed to pass it on, convey it, disclose it, rather you are supposed to clarify and verify the matter!!


The word has the root ba-ya-na. Which gives us the meanings:

"To be or become manifest, evident." - A Dictionary and Glosarry of the Koran by J.Penrice pp-21
"Be evident, render clear." - Arabic English Dictionary by F. Steingass pp-155
"Manifest, bring into view, disclose." - Al Mawrid Arabic English Dictionary pp-256
"To show, Manifest" - Al Asri Arabic English Dictionary pp 85
"To be or become plain, Evident, come out, visible, to announce." - Hans Wehr Arabic-Eng. Dictionary pp-87
The problem is you're quoting selective lines from english-arabic translation dictionaries rather than quoting the full definition from the arabic lexicons as you should be; here is a short sample:
http://lexicons.ajeeb.com/openme.asp...l/3083657.html

It is saying that the reminder (the Qur'an) has been sent down so that the Messenger shall let it be known to all people (tubayyina), instead of keeping it to himself.
Wrong. It is not to make something known, it is to make something CLEAR as we have witnessed above the Sunnah functions to clarify, elucidate and explain the Qur'an.

A revealed scripture, such as the Qur'an, the Torah, or Injeel, do not have to be the only sort of inspiration to its respective messenger. We see that people of the past have received knowledge, or inspiration, yet those inspirations were not parts of any Scripture. Prophet Yusuf's father said:

He said: "I merely complain my grief and sorrow to God, and I know from God what you do not know." [Qur'an 12:86]

This knowledge he received was not part of a Scripture.

Prophet Yusuf was also given the 'knowledge' of intepreting dreams [12:6].
However this knowledge given to him was not part of a Scripture.

Maryam was met by an angel who spoke to her on behalf of Allah, however there is no indication that those words uttered by the angel were to be part of any scripture bieng revealed to Maryam. [19:16-21]

The Prophet may well have been given knowledge, such as the actions of his wives outside of the Qur'an, however that knowledge given by Allah, and the revelation of the verses of the Qur'an, are two very different things. That is because the Qur'an is a Scripture (kitab), consisting of revealed verses, these are revealed to be part of a complete guide (the Qur'an attests to it bieng a complete book of guide). However other knowledges to the Prophet may not be in the form of verses.
So you have CONCEDED the challenge and admitted that:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.
This is proving to be too easy! :uhwhat
The fact that the Prophet may have received knowledge outside of the Qur'an, does not do anything in the way to proove that we need any source other than the Qur'an, because the Qur'an tells us it is complete and fully detailed. Any other knowledge or inspiration to the Prophet, is not neccessary for guidance (which is why it is not in the Qur'an).
So I guess you won't be celebrating Eid with us since it is not found in the Qur'an! It seems you will also be abandoning Salah, Zakat, Wudu, Fasting, Hajj, and for that matter every single Islamic practice since the Qur'an only gives the general directive to establish prayer but provides no details as to number of rakaa'a, arkaan, shuroot, etc. etc.

Since you claim we need no other source apart from the Qur'an, do tell me that apply to cutting off the hand for burglary as mentioned in the Qur'an - what is the threshold value, does it apply to children, insane, the impoverished? None of these questions can be answered without reference to the Sunnah.

What if someone tells you that they don't need to pray these five daily formal prayers since 'salah' just means having any type of connection with Allah swt? Your own methodlogy demolishes itself!

I strongly suggest you take a wise step in your learning and move beyond scrounging for justifications for ill-informed conjecture to the level of ACTUALLY educating yourself about hadeeth sciences, its rules, its system of classification and how you can follow the sunnah of the Prophet saws.

Say (O Muhammad): "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


:w:
Reply

vegael2003
10-17-2006, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
Why do some people completely reject hadith?

i am wondering why? they only go by what the Quran says. and conclude that all what the prophet said along from Bukhari and the rest as fabricated


Because some hypocrite scholar read more hadith than Al-Quran and implement the fake hadith (which hadith is not related on the basis of Al-Quran) into the Muslim Ummah then make contradiction or confusion into general Muslim Ummah. So they (general Muslim) are afraid to obey and accept all hadith which is contradicted the verse of Al-Quran.

One think remember that prophet Muhammad (saws) was contained two character of human being by Allah, one of them he was a prophet (the messenger of Allah) and another one he was a general human (which was his personal life). The character of Prophet Muhammad was not questionable because it is protect by Allah Himself but the character of general human Muhammad was not correct all time because he was not an angel, he was a human absolutely and he did wrong some time. So all act of Muhammad is not hadith. Hadith is that conversation of Muhammad (saws) with his sahabas which is related on the verse of Al-Quran. That means when any sahaba could not understand the meaning of revealed verse of Al-Quran then they told to Prophet Muhammad for explaining about the verse then it made as hadith. As an example, Allah says in Al-Quran several times for steadfast the Salat but He does not explain details about it in Al-Quran. Then Prophet Muhammad (saws) explained the verse of Al-Quran with trained by angel Gabriel (AS). So the hadith is not meant the personal life of Muhammad (saws). Muhammad (saws) liked sweet, using attar, keeping beard etc but it is not meat that you must like sweet, using attar, keeping beard etc and if you don't obey it then become Kafeer. So it is not contradiction about the hadith. So it is very careful that which hadith is sahih and which is fake.

Another thing remembers that if any body doesn’t follow hadith for following the instruction of Al-Quran then they will become Kafeer, it is wrong thinking. If any body doesn’t follow hadith then he can't know the perfect meaning of iman, salat, hajj, zihad etc. That means, they will be in mistaken but not become a Kafeer.

Some scholar says that if you don't follow hadith then you will become Kafeer because it is meant that you deny the prophet Muhammad (saws) but it is wrong thinking. Because Allah says in Al-Quran:

[2:4] And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you*, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.
[2:5] These are guided by their Lord; these are the winners.

That means, if any body don’t accept Prophet Muhammad (saws) as a messenger of Allah then they will become Kafeer. Because if they don’t accept Prophet Muhammad (saws) as a messenger of Allah then they must deny Al-Quran and Allah also. Al-Quran is the only one Holy Book in the world where it is mentioned that Allah is one and only, He has no partner and He never beget any body.

Thanking you
Allah blesses us.
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-17-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by ameen
salam,

you have just used the above verse to try and prove that the Hadith are a Divine source of Law and Guidance, alongside the Holy Qur'an, which all Muslims are obliged to follow.

If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet:


" What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger from the people of the townships - it is for Allah, His Messenger, the kindred (of the Prophet), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. " - (59:07)


So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war! Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt to trick the Muslim world into believing that the Hadith have some Divine Authority from Allah to be followed like the Holy Qur'an.


wsalam
ahadith is the booty of war
Reply

north_malaysian
10-17-2006, 07:38 AM
We have to appreciate deeds of scholars like Bukhari, Muslim etc..... is NOT EASY to collect true hadiths.

For people who reject hadiths... they should learn Ulum Al Hadith (sciences of Hadith) first before .... saying they reject hadith....

Sadly Jemaah Al Quran Malaysia (Anti-Hadith Group) lead by Kassim Ahmad has lots of members... even can voice their opinion in a magazine....

I shed tears after reading one of Kassim Ahmad's article that ridiculed Imam Bukhari.....:cry: :cry: :cry:
Reply

vegael2003
10-17-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam Al-Fateh,

I can't speak for all, but I can tell you personally why I have rejected hadiths.
There are a number of reasons of course.

For one thing I do not believe that the Quran tells us to follow hadiths. I also do not believe that God would leave us (human beings) to sort through all of the so called saying of the Messenger and leave it up to us to decide what is fabricated and what is not fabricated. Just don't believe that at all.

Also there are plenty of hadiths that contradict eachother... and many people have their own version of the same hadiths aswell. Also there are many hadiths that even contradict the Quran.

Also this is word of mouth. This is what people have said other people said about the Messenger... who are we to take their word for it?

But anyways, it all goes back to the Quran. I've never read of Buhkari in the Quran. I've never read that there are other books to be followed aswell. Nope, not at all. And you've never read of this in the Quran aswell.

salaam


Brother BioStop

I can understand your feeling but one thing remembers that Allah says in Al-Quran:

[3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[3:8] "Our Lord, let not our hearts waver, now that you have guided us. Shower us with Your mercy; You are the Grantor.


You must understand the meaning the part of above verse of Al-Quran which is marked by red & blue color. So you need to know sahih hadith which is helped to know and understand easily of those verses (which is contained multiple-meaning).

I have mentioned in my last post that why is it not essential to follow all hadith but need to follow those hadith which is related by Al-Quran because it is very helpful and need for understanding Al-Quran very easily and perfectly.

If any thing is not mentioned in Al-Quran that is not meant that you can't accept or refuse it. Yes, there is not mentioned that "you must follow hadith", that is not meant that you don't follow hadith. Then will you tell me Kafeer if I read Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bible etc? If any body can choose right thing then he never be in contradiction any time. It is clearly express in the part of verse of Al-Quran which is marked by green color.
Reply

Goku
10-17-2006, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them. That is why the Hadith Rejectors reject. They come across a Hadith that doesnt make sense to them, so they say, "It doesnt make sense to me, therefore it has to be false". They are fooling themselves and speaking about which they have no knowledge and letting their ignorance decieve them.

They claim they follow the Quran, but they are the ones who are the furthest away from following it!

And the irony of the matter is that the Messenger of Allah told us in Hadiths that there will be people rejecting Hadiths and he forbade us from doing as they do.

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi said on the matter over at AlMaghrib Forums with regards to the "Submitters":

To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.

49: 1. O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allah and His Messenger (), and fear Allah. Verily! Allah is All-Hearing All-Knowing.

One should say, when he doesnt understand a Hadith or is confronted with one that seemingly contradicts others that he will research into the matter more, and ask the scholors and not go with what he himself desires. One should not do as the Hadith rejectors do, and claim that the hadith is false. That is putting oneself forward before Allah and His Messenger.



:w:
Salam Alaikum

You said:

To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.
I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.

I dont reject hadith, I accept them. And I am very grateful to Imam Bukhari (and Muslim), after reading how extensively he authenticated the hadith and even prayed 2 rakat before recording every hadith, I understand it must have been difficult for him. God bless their soul. However, with some hadith, such as the ones i mentioned, which I am not sure over, i dont reject them outright but am a bit cautious on them.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-17-2006, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
Salam Alaikum

You said:



I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.

I dont reject hadith, I accept them. And I am very grateful to Imam Bukhari (and Muslim), after reading how extensively he authenticated the hadith and even prayed 2 rakat before recording every hadith, I understand it must have been difficult for him. God bless their soul. However, with some hadith, such as the ones i mentioned, which I am not sure over, i dont reject them outright but am a bit cautious on them.
:sl:

Akhi, I understand. The first sentence of my post:

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them.
That is why we have scholors. It is high time we go to them and ask what does such and such a hadith mean, then go to lay people who have no knowledge in hadith, who speak of their own desires and ask them what they think! The cure for our ignorance is asking the right people isnt it? :)

This is proving to be too easy!
:lol: Mashallah.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-17-2006, 03:11 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by ameen
If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet
This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!
So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war!
Actually, the Sahâba, may Allah swt be pleased with him, had the correct understanding of this verse:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.” A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.” He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?” She said, “I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e., the whole Qur’an).” He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).”
Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt
Funny that you should accuse the Sahâba, those closest to the Prophet saws and those whom he praised continuosly, of deceit!!

:w:

:sl:
Originally Posted by Goku
I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.
This is exactly what happens with hadith-rejectors. They are not scholars but lay people who come across some Ahâdîth they find troubling and instead of going to the scholars for explanations and understanding, they allow the doubts to fester inside them and they begin to reject these hadith. The renowned scholar of Hadith, Sufyan Ibn Uyaynah said, "al-hadith madilla illa li’l-‘ulama’: ‘the hadith are a pitfall, except for the scholars."

Actually bro, the hadith you are referring to was explained in my article here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#18

:w:
Reply

Hijrah
10-17-2006, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!
Actually, the Sahâba, may Allah swt be pleased with him, had the correct understanding of this verse:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.” A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.” He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?” She said, “I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e., the whole Qur’an).” He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).”
Funny that you should accuse the Sahâba, those closest to the Prophet saws and those whom he praised continuosly, of deceit!!

:w:

:sl:

This is exactly what happens with hadith-rejectors. They are not scholars but lay people who come across some Ahâdîth they find troubling and instead of going to the scholars for explanations and understanding, they allow the doubts to fester inside them and they begin to reject these hadith. The renowned scholar of Hadith, Sufyan Ibn Uyaynah said, "al-hadith madilla illa li’l-‘ulama’: ‘the hadith are a pitfall, except for the scholars."

Actually bro, the hadith you are referring to was explained in my article here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#18

:w:
I would definitely agree, I have the same problem concerning particular Hadiths I don't understand...
Reply

AceOfHearts
10-18-2006, 12:24 AM
:sl:

We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:

Originally Posted by Ähmed

Its clear but it doesnt prove your point in the least.

53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53: 4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.


These verses prove that whatever the Prophet said was an inspiration from Allah. Or are you saying that when the Prophet spoke he spoke only the Quran and nothing else?!
Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind, shall see instantly as clear as daylight, that this verse is refering to the Mighty Qur'an.

We shall now look at the two verses in context by looking at its surrounding verses, please read attentively:

[53:1] As the star collapsed.
[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration (In huwa illa wahyun yooha).
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.
[53:6] Free from any defect, he became stable.
[53:7] While he was at the highest horizon.
[53:8] Then he drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
[53:10] He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The heart did not invent what it saw.
[53:12] Do you doubt him in what he saw?
[53:13] And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
[53:14] By the lote-tree of the utmost boundary,
[53:15] Near it is the eternal Paradise.
[53:16] When that which shroudeth did enshroud the lote-tree,
[53:17] his eye-sight turned not aside, neither did it wander:
[53:18] and he saw some of the greatest signs of his Lord.

- Qur'an 53:1-18


Nothing further is needed to clarify that this is referring to the Qur’anic revelation. We can tell more so because the Qur’an is giving us the setting in which the Prophet found himself in. One with an unprejudiced mind would imagine how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument by assuming for the sake of argument, that this 'wahi' (divine inspiration) is also refering to the Prophet's everyday normal speech.

The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was wahi, since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause:

God forgive you [Prophet]! Why did you give them permission to stay at home before it had become clear to you which of them spoke the truth and which were liars? [Qur’an 9:43]

If everything the Prophet said was ‘wahi’, then he would not have made errors as he had done there, he would have been infallible. And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.

In another verse of the Qur’an, we are told how the Prophet prohibited something on himself when Allah had made it permissible:

O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful. [Qur’an 66:1]

Again, if everything the Prophet uttered was divine inspiration (wahi), then why does this Qur’anic verse admonish the Prophet the way it does? If the Qur’an is wahi and the Prophets normal speech was wahi too, surely they would not contradict each other.

Now, we have first read the two Qur’anic verses [53:2-3] in context in that which it is in. We then have seen by way of other Qur’anic verses, that not everything the Prophet said could be ‘wahi’. The Prophet had a distinct self where he spoke as a fallible human being, he then had a wahi which was infallible. This infallible ‘wahi’, is none other then the Glorious Qur’an.

[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.

- Qur'an 53:2-5


The following verse further proves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:

So perhaps you wish to ignore some of what has been inspired to you (ma yooha ilayka), and you are depressed by it, because they Say: "If only a treasure was sent down with him, or an Angel had come with him!" You are but a warner, and God is caretaker over all things. Or do they Say: "He invented it!" Say: "Bring ten invented chapters like it, (biAAashri suwarin mithlihi) and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful." [Qur'an 11:12-13]

In the above verse, reference is made to 'wahi'. This wahi is refered to the Surah's ('Bring ten surahs like it), and we know that the Qur'an is composed of surahs. The Prophet's normal speach is not included in this 'wahi', which the disblievers are challenged to emulate.

We therefore conclude that Qur'anic 53:2-3 refers solely to the Qur'an. It is saying that the Qur'an's source is not the Prophet's personal desire, rather it has been taught to him by the One mighty in power.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-18-2006, 03:36 AM
:w:

Originally Posted by Companion
:sl:

We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:



Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind, shall see instantly as clear as daylight, that this verse is refering to the Mighty Qur'an.

We shall now look at the two verses in context by looking at its surrounding verses, please read attentively:

[53:1] As the star collapsed.
[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.
[53:6] Free from any defect, he became stable.
[53:7] While he was at the highest horizon.
[53:8] Then he drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
[53:10] He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The heart did not invent what it saw.
[53:12] Do you doubt him in what he saw?
[53:13] And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
[53:14] By the lote-tree of the utmost boundary,
[53:15] Near it is the eternal Paradise.
[53:16] When that which shroudeth did enshroud the lote-tree,
[53:17] his eye-sight turned not aside, neither did it wander:
[53:18] and he saw some of the greatest signs of his Lord.

- Qur'an 53:1-18


Nothing further is needed to clarify that this is referring to the Qur’anic revelation. We can tell more so because the Qur’an is giving us the setting in which the Prophet found himself in. One with an unprejudiced mind would imagine how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument.
No, you can tell because you are making up your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing here, as you did to the word "zikr" and Br. Ansar annihalated your fallacy:

This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!
No word is there that indicates that is exclusively referring to the Quran. Do you not understand the translation?

Nor does he speak from personal desire.

That is referring to everything that the Prophet said. How can you differ what is from the Quran and what is hadith when both came from the same person and were preserved by the SAME people without the Science of Ahadith which you are completely ignorant of?! By your logic, one would either take everything that is attributed from the Prophet, the Quran, the hadith, or one would reject it all.

The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was ‘wahi’ (divine inspiration), since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause:

God forgive you [Prophet]! Why did you give them permission to stay at home before it had become clear to you which of them spoke the truth and which were liars? [Qur’an 9:43]

If everything the Prophet said was ‘wahi’, then he would not have made errors as he had done there, he would have been infallible. And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.
You refuted yourself. You admit that there is something other than the Quran. Or are you saying the Prophet used to lie and what is in the Quran is the only truth he spoke?!

Again:

You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!
In another verse of the Qur’an, we are told how the Prophet prohibited something on himself when Allah had made it permissible:

O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful. [Qur’an 66:1]

Again, if everything the Prophet uttered was divine inspiration (wahi), then why does this Qur’anic verse admonish the Prophet the way it does? If the Qur’an is wahi and the Prophets normal speech was wahi too, surely they would not contradict each other.
And who said the Ahadith and the Quran contradict each other? This is an evidence of your ignorance about the Ahadith.

You lack knowledge, and you refuse to educate yourself to gain that knowledge.

Now, we have first read the two Qur’anic verses [53:2-3] in context in that which it is in. We then have seen by way of other Qur’anic verses, that not everything the Prophet said could be ‘wahi’. The Prophet had a distinct self where he spoke as a fallible human being, he then had a wahi which was infallible. This infallible ‘wahi’, is none other then the Glorious Qur’an.
So, when the Prophet gave rulings to his companions on how to pray, how many rakats, which is not mentioned in the Quran it was fallible? Was he telling his companions something he made up? You have failed to answer my questions. Here they are for you again:

Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.
[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.

- Qur'an 53:2-5


The following verse prooves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:

So perhaps you wish to ignore some of what has been inspired to you (ma yooha ilayka), and you are depressed by it, because they Say: "If only a treasure was sent down with him, or an Angel had come with him!" You are but a warner, and God is caretaker over all things. Or do they Say: "He invented it!" Say: "Bring ten invented chapters like it, (biAAashri suwarin mithlihi) and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful." [Qur'an 11:12-13]

In the above verse, reference is made to 'wahi'. This wahi is refered to the Surah's ('Bring ten surahs like it), and we know that the Qur'an is composed of surahs. The Prophet's normal speach is not included in this 'wahi', which the disblievers are challenged to emulate.
Same thing AGAIN! You are citing your [mis]interpetations and assuming it is fact!

You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!
We therefore conclude that Qur'anic 53:2-3 refers solely to the Qur'an. It is saying that the Qur'an's source is not the Prophet's personal desire, rather it has been taught to him by the One mighty in power.
No such conclusion has been made. In fact, the verse is referring to everything that the Prophet said that had to with religion and religious matters. Everything that he told us regarding the religion was from Allah and MOST of the details and rulings of the religion are in the Ahadith which NECCISITATES that they be preserved, few being in the Quran and those being general.

:w:
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-18-2006, 04:35 AM
Assalam Alaikum, to whom I can dare to believe in the necessity of extra

now I could dare any person whom is an anti-(a?)hadith sort, to read the thread with a story about an Ant that never finishes; and try to still manifest no clarity in why to believe in every ahadith

OR,

I could just tell you that you might turn out to be who is delaying the counting of The Dajjal if you are not attuning with every ahadith;

and, that every person whom has read that Ant ridden nonsense thread, knows.

But if there manifest no persons believing me, then no person will ever know whether I am ever even believable? Will they?

But this bit I am not at all sure about: is it that there is any coincidence of reasoning between the anti-(a?)hadith lobby and an iron shirt Kung Fu practise? Because if so, then the whole job is already well and truly stitched up and there is no harm in letting folk disbelieve in the hadith. If that is what they want the better not waste your energy in preventing them. Sadly enough similar phenomenon are occuring world wide this Ramadan. While true in belief is getting stronger and stronger in certainty.

Assalamu Alaikum rvq
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-18-2006, 06:18 AM
:sl:
Further to what has been mentioned by Br. Ahmed,
Originally Posted by Companion
We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:
You are proceeding on to another topic to espouse further erroneous views though you have neglected entirely my detailed refutation of your last claims. Am I to take your silence on those issues as an acknowledgement of defeat on your part? If not, I would like to see your response to my refutation before moving on to new claims.
Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind
Now this is rather amusing. You encourage anyone to just pick up the Qur'an and give tafseer - it seems when you said 'unprejudiced mind' you really were referring to an 'uneducated mind'!!
One with an unprejudiced mind [read: UNEDUCATED mind!] would imagine [The hadith-rejectors substitute the directives of the Prophet for imagination!!!] how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument.
As it stands there is no argument, only unsubstantiated assertions. You attempt to restrict the generality of the statment using neither internal nor external evidence, but only your 'imagination'. I'm afraid your 'imagination' falls short under the standard of objectivity.
The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was ‘wahi’ (divine inspiration), since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause
This doubt is actually incinerated in Ma'âriful-Qur'ân, which I quote as follows:
The Holy Prophet's Words are a Revelation from Allah

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى
{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}

The verses tell us that it is absolutely impossible for the Messenger [saws] to forge lies and impute them to Allah. Nothing he utters is of his own wish or desire. He only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey in its entirety, without additions or deletions. An analysis of the various Traditions in Bukhârî indicates that there are many categories or types of wahy [inspiration or revelation]. Type one is that in which the wordings and the meaning are both directly from Allah. This is called Qur'ân. Type two is the one in which only the meaning comes from Allah, and the Messenger [saws] expresses the meaning in his own words. This is called Hadîth or Sunnah [Tradition]. The subject of Hadîth, which comes from Allah, sometimes lays does injunctions or rules of conduct in clear and express terms, and at other times it establishes a general principle from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd or analogy, and promulgates them. In this there does exist the possibility of mistake of judgement. But it is the characteristic of the Messenger [saws] and other Prophets [as] that if they commit any error of judgement, Allah sends down a revelation to amend it, so that they do not unwittingly persist in their mistaken ijtihâd. Unlike other scholars of ijtihâd, who can persist in their erroneous conclusions. However, their error is not only forgiven, but they also recieve one reward for exerting their utmost effort in comprehending the rule of religion to the fullest extent, as authentic and well-known Traditions bear testimony to this fact.

The foregoing discussion also allays the following doubt: It seems according to the above verses, that the Messenger [saws] does not speak of his own desire, but whatever he conveys to the people is a revelation from Allah. It follows from this that he does not exercise independent reasoning in any matter whatsoever, whereas authentic Traditions show otherwise. There are incidents recorded that at the beginning, he promulgated one law, but later on, revelation descended and the law was changed. This is an indication that the earlier law was not the law of Allah, but it was based on his ijtihâd. The foregoing paragraph already responded to this objection: the second type of revelation establishes a general principle of law from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd, and promulgates them. Because the general principle has descended from Allah, all the laws are said to be the revelation from Allah. Allah knows best! (Shafy, vol. 8, pp. 202-203)
And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.
Actually, it is your view that expressly contradicts the Qur'an which states that the Prophet saws never speaks in accordance with his own desire, yet you insist that he has spoken from his own desire. This doubt is refuted in what has preceded from Ma'âriful-Qur'ân.
The following verse prooves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:
Again, fallacious reasoning at its climax! The use of 'wahi' to refer to the Qur'an does not in any way prove that it refers exclusively to the Qur'an. We know that Allah swt uses the word 'wahy' to refer to all types of divine inspiration in the Qur'an.

Again, I encourage you to heed my advice in my last post.
:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
10-18-2006, 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

It is not against our agreement.
Unfortunately for you, since you reject Ahâdîth, you lack any objective criterion as to what constitutes the 'correct' understanding' and what does not; it is no more than your thoughts since you yourself concede that you lack even a basic understanding of Mustalah Al-Hadith.
This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:
21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.
This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation! Many of the references you cite are indeed references to the Qur'an. But it is inherently fallacious to evince from such a premise that the reference is exclusive to the Qur'an.
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:w:

No, you can tell because you are making up your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing here, as you did to the word "zikr" and Br. Ansar annihalated your fallacy:

No word is there that indicates that is exclusively referring to the Quran. Do you not understand the translation?
I did not say all the 'zikrs' mentioned in the Qur'an is used to refer only to the Qur'an. I was saying how the word (zikr) used in the verse that was under discussion [16:44], was used to refer solely ("exclusively") to the Qur'an (and not to hadith or anything else). I then quoted verses from elsewhere in the Qur'an where 'zikr' has been used to refer to the Qur'an to prove that 'zikr' has indeed been used elsewhere to refer to the Qur'an. Both Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed clearly misintepreted my post.
Reply

أحمد
10-18-2006, 07:40 AM
:sl:

Firstly it is not right to claim to follow the Quran, while rejecting sunnah of Rasoolulah (saw), because the Quran directly commands this, in Surah Aal-Imran (3) verses: 31,32,132.

003.031
YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
PICKTHAL: Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL

003.032
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
SHAKIR: Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

003.132
YUSUFALI: And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.
PICKTHAL: And obey Allah and the messenger, that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
Also refer to verse 164 of the same Surah (3), Surah al-Ahzab (33) verses: 45,46,21 as well as Surah al-Anbiyah (21) verse: 107. And Surah al-Jumu'ah (62) verse: 2.

003.164
YUSUFALI: Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.
PICKTHAL: Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them) they were in flagrant error.
SHAKIR: Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error.

033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

033.045
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner,-
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have sent thee as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner,

033.046
YUSUFALI: And as one who invites to Allah's (grace) by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light.
PICKTHAL: And as a summoner unto Allah by His permission, and as a lamp that giveth light.
SHAKIR: And as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.

021.107
YUSUFALI: We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.
PICKTHAL: We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.
SHAKIR: And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

062.002
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,
SHAKIR: He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,
Furthermore the Quran isn't something to pick and choose from, taking bits which you like and rejecting others: Surah al-Baqarah (2) verse: 85.

002.085
YUSUFALI: After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL: Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR: Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-18-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by aleefwaw
:sl:

Firstly it is not right to claim to follow the Quran, while rejecting sunnah of Rasoolulah (saw), because the Quran directly commands this, in Surah Aal-Imran (3) verses: 31,32,132.
Also refer to verse 164 of the same Surah (3), Surah al-Ahzab (33) verses: 45,46,21 as well as Surah al-Anbiyah (21) verse: 107. And Surah al-Jumu'ah (62) verse: 2.
Furthermore the Quran isn't something to pick and choose from, taking bits which you like and rejecting others: Surah al-Baqarah (2) verse: 85.
I agree!

I just can not seem to become able to manifest belief that any person whom claims to believe only a portion of all of ahadith (Qur'an included) and not all of. Surely if you can believe that Mohammed received any voice of Allah that He could not have spoken out of turn in His Prophethood.

It is well recorded that He physically could not but speak in Allah.

If we are in Allah we receive evidence of this.

Can it be that there are persons whom focus their prayer upon specific sections of all of ahadith and delay learning other sections so well: because that way I can sustain belief in those persons being believers.

I am scared by how much ahadith has got seperated into little iddy biddy pieces even, little own taking one sentence at a time. The whole clearly has depth of meaning that small portions can misrepresent unless we take our belief in Allah seriously.

Truly then let Peace and Allah's Blessing be with Mohammed by Gracing him with honouring our memory of His work.

Why not just be a non-believer if you can not accept full ahadith?

Assalamu Alaikum rvq
Reply

ameen
10-18-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Actually, the Sahâba, may Allah swt be pleased with him, had the correct understanding of this verse:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.” A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.” He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?” She said, “I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e., the whole Qur’an).” He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).”

salam,

This thread is debating the authority of Hadith as a source of Divine Law in Islam. You are yet to prove, USING THE HOLY QUR'AN, that Allah has given the Hadith such Divine authority. Therefore, you must use the Qur'an as a basis of your arguments - and Not the Hadith - because the authority of these very Hadith is in question in the first place!

Do you know why you have turned to the Hadith to argue your points, instead of using the Qur'an? - it is because you will Never be able to prove using THE QUR'AN, that the Hadith is Holy Law in Islam.


Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in ALL disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Why does Allah swt endorse the judgements of the Prophet pbuh in the above verse and command all muslims to accept his decisions if the only thing we are commanded to accept is the Qur'an?

This verse, which you think proves the authority of Hadith, says that the Prophet is the 'judge in disputes between the people.'

But Allah makes it very clear that what the Prophet had used to 'judge between' people - was the Holy Qur'an! :

" So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them, in-case they seduce you away from some part of that which Allah has revealed unto you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evildoers. " - (5:49)


In-case you try to also twist this verse and say that it is somehow Not talking about the Qur'an - but instead is talking about Hadith - then please pay attention to the part of the verse which speaks of "some part of that which Allah has revealed unto" the Prophet - which is clearly referring to parts of the Qur'an.

Also, if you are still in doubt about whether or not the verse you quoted is about QUR'ANIC judgements by the Prophet, then the following verse will explicitly tell you that the Prophet settled the disputes of the people using ' the Book ' - ie. using the Holy Qur'an:

" We have only sent down to you The Book (the Qur'an), so that you may make clear to them that which they dispute about, and as a Guidance and a Mercy to a people who believe. " - (16:64)


Furthermore, the following verse confirms that when the Prophet judges the disputes between the people, he is inviting people to 'the Book of Allah' to settle their disputes:

" Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are being invited to the Book of Allah (kithabullah) to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. " - (3:23)


Therefore, this verse makes it very clear that it is the Qur'an which was the Prophet's Criterion for judging between people in their disputes. That is why they were ' being invited to the Book of Allah ' to judge between them. That is why the Qur'an is ultimately our Only Guide today - just as it was the Prophet's Only Book of Guidance.


wsalam
Reply

vegael2003
10-18-2006, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by ameen
salam,
that the Hadith is Holy Law in Islam.
wsalam
It is absolutely wrong. Because Allah makes all laws of Islam. Muhammad (saws) is His messenger only.

Al-Quran is holy law of Islam
Reply

Snowflake
10-18-2006, 01:20 PM
Salam,

Firstly I want to make it clear that I do not reject the hadith, but neither do I follow blindly. So please don't let my questions be misunderstood.

When the Quran tells us to follow the Prophet (PBUH), does that mean follow as in to believe what was revealed to the Prophet (Quran), or follow everything the prophet ever uttered/did?

I'm asking this simply because if it was compulsory to literally follow the prophet in everything, then everything the prophet did would have been fardh upon us. But it is not. For example the Prophet slept on his right side. So if we were to follow the prophet we'd have to do the same. But we don't. Only we are rewarded if we follow suit. There is no sin if we don't. Right?

Therefore, to follow the Prophet must mean to follow his teachings of the Quran. If we were commanded to follow the prophet's sunnah then wouldn't everything the prophet did become obligatory upon us?

Rude people needn't bother replying.

:w:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-18-2006, 01:26 PM
:sl:

This is funny. Lookie here:

You are yet to prove, USING THE HOLY QUR'AN,
Yet you have not answered ONE of our questions whilst we have answered yours. You go around repeating your claims over and over! Here they are ONCE MORE:

Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?


The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.

Answer that using ONLY THE QURAN.

Do you know why you have turned to the Hadith to argue your points, instead of using the Qur'an? - it is because you will Never be able to prove using THE QUR'AN, that the Hadith is Holy Law in Islam.
But you have failed repeatedly to answer the questions. WHY? It is because you will Never be able to Answer using only THE QUR'AN!

Therefore, this verse makes it very clear that it is the Qur'an which was the Prophet's Criterion for judging between people in their disputes. That is why they were ' being invited to the Book of Allah ' to judge between them. That is why the Qur'an is ultimately our Only Guide today - just as it was the Prophet's Only Book of Guidance.
Your argument is full of inconsistenices. If the Prophet used ONLY to the Quran so as to teach people the religion. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ABOVE. The Quran ought to contain the answers! Strangely, no one over the past millenia and and half has found them in there!

:w:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-18-2006, 01:48 PM
:sl:
Firstly I want to make it clear that I do not reject the hadith, but neither do I follow blindly. So please don't let my questions be misunderstood.
They wont be misunderstood because you are asking because you dont know and want to know. The hadith rejectors reject and are too arrogant to ask and learn. May Allah reward you for asking :)

When the Quran tells us to follow the Prophet (PBUH), does that mean follow as in to believe what was revealed to the Prophet (Quran), or follow everything the prophet ever uttered/did?
That is why we have the science of Hadith sister. The hadiths that are authentic, such as the ones in Bukhari and Muslim are Sahih, meaning there is no dispute about their authenicity. The Prophet actually said them. We are required to believe in them because it has been proven that they are indeed authentic. That is part of our belief.

I'm asking this simply because if it was compulsory to literally follow the prophet in everything, then everything the prophet did would have been fardh upon us. But it is not. For example the Prophet slept on his right side. So if we were to follow the prophet we'd have to do the same. But we don't. Only we are rewarded if we follow suit. There is no sin if we don't. Right?
We go to the Scholors of Hadith to learn what was meant by a Hadith, because there are so many of them we cannot just take one and leave others. That is why the scholors are important, because they know the Hadiths that are out there, and they can come up with a ruling using them and the Quran and the other 2 principles of Usul ul Fiqh, Ijma' (Consensus of the Scholors) and Qiyaas (Anaolgy).

Some things come under the classification of Sunnah, such as sleeping on the right side. But the beard, which is mentioned in the Ahadith, is fard because of the way the Hadith is, "The Prophet commanded us to trim our mustaches and grow the beard". Another example is, Tarawih Salah. The Prophet prayed it for 4 days and then did not pray it on the fifth, and the reason he gave was, "I feared if I continued to pray it would have been wajib upon you". Therefore, praying Tarawih is classified as a Sunnah action. The Quran tells us to cut off the hand of the theif, but the minatory value is established in the Ahadith. You get rewarded for doing something that is a Sunnah, but you wont be sinful if you leave it. Whereas, something that is Fard, you are sinful if you leave it.


The Prophet's command is equal to the Command in the Quran. So whenever we hear that the Prophet commanded us to do something in an authentic hadith, it is as if Allah has commanded it because the Prophet has said, "I have recieved the Quran and something like it" (Abu Dawud). Therefore, we should try to follow it as much as we can.


Therefore, to follow the Prophet must mean to follow his teachings of the Quran. If we were commanded to follow the prophet's sunnah then wouldn't everything the prophet did become obligatory upon us?

The Quran and the hadith. Because the Ahadith expand on the Quran. They explain the Quran. The Quran is a book of individual guidance with some rulings. The Ahadith have rulings that the Prophet gave, and incidents that occured at the time of the Prophet. We learn from them, what to do in such and such a situation etc. There is no Islam without the Ahadith.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-18-2006, 03:26 PM
:sl: Companion,
Originally Posted by Companion
I did not say all the 'zikrs' mentioned in the Qur'an is used to refer only to the Qur'an.
Wrong, you did not refer just to this verse:
First let us establish that the 'zikr' (reminder) refers exclusively to the Qur'an [...]
The reminder (zikr) refers to the Qur'an, as we also see from other verses [...] So the 'zikr' is none other then the Qur'an. Now let us look at the next bit.
[*]
I'm glad that you have realized your initial position is false, but you should admit that clearly rather than playing a game of I said, you said.
I was saying how the word (zikr) used in the verse that was under discussion [16:44], was used to refer solely ("exclusively") to the Qur'an (and not to hadith or anything else). I then quoted verses from elsewhere in the Qur'an where 'zikr' has been used to refer to the Qur'an to prove that 'zikr' has indeed been used elsewhere to refer to the Qur'an.
What a joke!! If you are trying to prove that Dhikr in ayat 16:44 refers exclusively to the Qur'an, then why would you quote other ayât?! Please explain your warped logic to me - how does the use of Dhikr to refer to the Qur'an in other places prove that it refers exclusively to the Qur'an here?!?!
Both Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed clearly misintepreted my post.
But you have only attempted a response to 1 line out of the dozens of points mentioned in our lengthy posts - shall we take it as a concession to our arguments on your part?

:sl: Ameen,
Originally Posted by ameen
This thread is debating the authority of Hadith as a source of Divine Law in Islam. You are yet to prove, USING THE HOLY QUR'AN, that Allah has given the Hadith such Divine authority.
First of all, why are you selectively responding to my post?? I said A LOT MORE in response to that claim of yours and you only quoted ONE of my points and omitted ALL the others! WHY? You can't respond to my points on Usûl? Here they are AGAIN:
This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!
Stop ignoring this point. Do not respond to my arguments selectively quoting 1 piece here and there so you can respond easier.

Secondly, I expected this objection on your part to my citation of the narration. The problem with your position is, when we go on quoting what has been reported of the sahâba's understanding of this verse, and then those after them and then those after them - you claim that they didn't understand the verse this way. So at which point did the entire Muslim ummah suddenly change and start reinterpreting the verse?? Even hadith-rejectors are not rash enough to claim that their views are the traditional views. They KNOW that the acceptance of the hadith and the interpretation of these verses in this manner is the way of the millions of Muslim scholars for almost 1 and a half millenia! Hadith-rejectors know this, they just claim that this traditional view is wrong, as you yourself have said only three posts ago.
This verse, which you think proves the authority of Hadith, says that the Prophet is the 'judge in disputes between the people.'
So like Companion, when you realize your previous claims have all been crushed, you move on to making new claims about a new verse!

This verse states that the Prophet saws was the judge in all the dispute of the people, every dispute they had was to be referred back to him. It is impossible for someone to claim that this referred only to the Qur'an since the verdicts about all the disputes of the people are not included in the Qur'an. This verse commands people to defer such affairs to the Prophet as the Qâdî, in whatever disputes they have including social and societal affairs. This verse cannot possibly be restricted to the Qur'an since it tells the Prophet saws "and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions" and yet the Qur'an is not a compendium of decisions on societal affairs! The language of this verse clearly establishes the Prophet saws as one in whom divine authority has been vested to issue rulings and one who must be obeyed as we also saw with the verse from surah Hashr which I cleared of your feeble response. For the compelte linguistic analysis of this verse refer to Al-Bahr Al-Muhît.

Here is proof of the Prophet's saws independent capacity of religious directives:

48:18 Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave their Bai'a (pledge) to you (O Muhammad SAW) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory,

Here the pledge that the Muslims gave the Prophet saws at hudaybiyyah is being praised in the Qur'an, yet not directive exists in the Qur'an to take such a pledge on this occasion. When the Prophet saws recieved news that 'Uthman rd may have been killed by the Quraysh he decided to take this pledge from the muslims, and yet he made this decision and the surah about Hudaybiyyah (Fath) was revealed after.

There are other verses which refer to the Qur'an as the response to the intellectual disputes of the various religious groups of the time, but they do not make reference to the Prophet's decisions. ALL of the Prophet's decrees are to be accepted as Allah swt negates the faith of anyone who rejects the decrees of the Prophet saws. The Prophet's teachings are the judge for us in all matters in our life, we are to accept his sunnah fully and completely.

Also, Companion and Ameen, stop ignoring the challenges that Ahmed and I have been repeating to you. You keep trying to give your imaginative 'tafseer' on different verses while skirting our arguments and challenges.

:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
10-18-2006, 07:31 PM
:sl:

I am convinced that you two (Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed) are unlikely to change your views any time soon, unless my Lord wills it. We are here to refute all the Qur'anic verses, that you bring forward in your attempt to show how Hadith is Holy Law alongside the Qur'an.

I find both of your posts generally on the rude side. It is apparent that you do not respect other people's views, or atleast outwardly show respect. If you followed the Qur'an, you would have read:

Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. [Qur’an 16:125]

You, Ansar-al-Adl, accuse me of lying when I said that I did not mean 'zikr' refers only to the Qur'an in all the verses which use this word. I find this rather insulting.

As for your comment about us not responding to your arguments, we are refuting your arguments which you have already presented earlier in the thread. We have used clear verses of the Qur'an and built up intellectual arguments using the Qur'an. When you respond back to our refutations, you only make 'presupposed' questions about the Qur'an that are of the nature of 'but how do you know.', 'Why is it not in there..' etc. and fail to provide Qur'anic verses for your refutations. They do not serve as an intellectual response to our refutations.

The Qur'an DOES NOT authorise hadith books as religious Divine Law, the only law is the Qur'an itself. You put up some verses claiming that they authorise hadith books, we refuted them using the Qur'an, and you responded to them with some if's and but's questions as said in the above paragraph. What needs to be refuted most importantly, is your claims about these Qur'anic verses. We are doing just that by the will of our Lord, and find no intellectual rebuttal to them in your responses; for example, how you refer back to the hadith as your argument, the very thing the authority of which we are debating! Or by asking 'pre-supposed' questions about the Qur'an that do not serve as an intellectual refutation to our arguments, which are built strongly with Qur'anic verses.

We have believed in the Qur'an in all its entirety, we believe it is fully detailed, well elaborated and clear because it tells us so. We accept this fact before we ask questions of the nature of but's and if's - 'where is this in the Qur'an?', 'where is that in the Qur'an?', 'why has this not been explained further?'

And if they are told: "Follow that which God has sent down." They Say: "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing." What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?" [Qur'an 31:21]

And when Our clear Revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said: "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say: "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!" [Qur’an 10:15]

They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One God, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up. [Qur’an 9:31]


:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-18-2006, 08:06 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Companion
I am convinced that you two (Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed) are unlikely to change your views any time soon, unless my Lord wills it.
The difference between our views and yours is that yours are built upon absolute ignorance of Mustalah Al-Hadith, and from Ameen's post it seems Usûl al-Fiqh as well.

39:9 Say: "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.


Shouldn't you at least educate yourselves upon the subject that you are trying to pass judgement on?
We are here to refute all the Qur'anic verses, that you bring forward in your attempt to show how Hadith is Holy Law alongside the Qur'an.
You can try to refute the Qur'anic verses but the disbelievers have failed for 1400+ years.

41:42 No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.


You have hardly responded to my arguments much less refuted them.
I find both of your posts generally on the rude side. It is apparent that you do not respect other people's views, or atleast outwardly show respect.
I'm sorry you find that to be so; Admittedly, I am stern against anyone who slanders the Prophet saws or rejects his teachings, but I have tried to offer you sincere advice on numerous occasions to just educate yourself and learn about your religion first. Why not try to learn about the subject that you are passing judgement on? I know the challenges and difficulties which push people to reject Ahâdîth, but subhânAllah once you educate yourself you realize how foolish and unnecessary such a position is, not to mention its blatant contradiction with the Qur'an.
You, Ansar-al-Adl, accuse me of lying when I said that I did not mean 'zikr' refers only to the Qur'an in all the verses which use this word. I find this rather insulting.
Please go back and re-read my post. I did not accuse you of lying, I said you were wrong. That may be due to forgetfullness, confusion, or a host of other factors it does not necessitate that you intentionally lied.
As for your comment about not responding to your arguments, we are refuting your arguments which you have already presented earlier in the thread.
You're not really refuting anything as I have shown. Each time you try to pass your imaginative views on the verses I have responded in detail exposing the fallacies and deficiencies in your assertions, yet you neglect my responses and move on to another verse. Until now you have not given me a direct response, you are only selectively quoting parts of my post to another individual several months ago and responding to that.
When you respond back to these refutations, you only make pre-supposed questions about the Qur'an
It is easy to make general and vague comments about someone's response, it is much more challenging to go through it an provide a viable counter-response.

The Qur'an DOES NOT authorise hadith books as religious Divine Law, the only law is the Qur'an itself.
Are you familiar with the fallacy known as argumentum ad nauseum? You're committing it right now.
for example, how you refer back to the hadith as your argument, the very thing the authority of which we are debating!
Ameen brought up this issue and I already responded. See my last post.
We accept this fact before we ask questions of the nature of but's and if's - 'where is this in the Qur'an?', 'where is that in the Qur'an?', 'why has this not been explained further?'
So you concede that you are unable to answer our questions, respond to our arguments, and have failed out challenges. That's a start.

If you ever decide to provide a point-by-point response to my arguments, let me know inshaa'Allah. There have been muslims like you who used to reject Ahadith during their ignorance but once they educated themselves they learned that it was unnecessary, futile and that there were better ways to respond to the allegations of anti-islamists.

:w:
Reply

united
10-18-2006, 08:21 PM
Please ignore these pickie and choosie hadith rejectors.
their argument are so pathetic and they have an uncanny ability to picke choosie what ahadith they want to follow but they will also pickie choosie what part of your posts they read.
their so called intelligence arises from total ignorance.
by all means, study islam and then get back and argue. but do NOT "pickie choosie" with no knowledge.

ps. ive had many an argument with these pickie choosies but as Allah says, "Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)." and sadly it is so true for some of these people.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-18-2006, 08:51 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Companion
:sl:

I am convinced that you two (Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed) are unlikely to ever change your views, unless my Lord wills it. We are here to refute all the Qur'anic verses, that you bring forward in your attempt to show how Hadith is Holy Law alongside the Qur'an.
The same is for you. All the evidences that you bring are evidences against yourselves. Its time you admit that and stop resorting to your own whims and desires because you failed to address one point that we have made.

I find both of your posts generally on the rude side.
I apolagize. But it is frustrating when you are debating with someone and all they are doing is repeating themselves!

It is apparent that you do not respect other people's views, or atleast outwardly show respect. If you followed the Qur'an, you would have read:

Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. [Qur’an 16:125]
That is exactly what it is! It is your VIEWS and your views are not fact nor are they correct! You are looking to make interpretations based on your "VIEWS". If you had followed the Quran, you would have read:

39:9 Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who know not? Verily it is only those with understanding who take heed.


Furthermore, you would have read:


4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.



As for your comment about not responding to your arguments, we are refuting your arguments which you have already presented earlier in the thread.
You have failed to answer our questions in ALL of your posts including this one! You have refuted none but your ownselves with your ill informed "VIEWS".

We have used clear verses of the Qur'an and built up intellectual arguments. When you respond back to these refutations, you only make pre-supposed questions about the Qur'an that are of the nature of 'but how do you know..', 'Why is it not in there..' etc. and fail to provide Qur'anic verses for your arguments. They do not serve as an intellectual response to our refutations.
You have failed to respond to our arguements and are sidetracking in each of your posts. Why dont you answer our questions??? Do not begin your next post without answering our questions using the Quran as you have claimed you are doing.


The Qur'an DOES NOT authorise hadith books as religious Divine Law, the only law is the Qur'an itself.
Again! You are incapable answering those questions because you cannot find the answers in the Quran and you have the audacity to repeat your "VIEW"!
You put up some verses claiming that they authorise hadith books,
You have never even understood our arguement! We are not putting up verses that authorize "hadith books", but verses that authorize the Ahadith as a whole! Ahadith authentication and compilation is a completely different topic.

we refuted them and you responded to them with some if's and but's questions as said in the above paragraph.
Where is your answer to our questions?!


What needs to be refuted most imortantly is your claims about these Qur'anic verses.
Where is your answer to our questions?! We replied to ALL your fallacies and all your [mis]interprations and asked you to answer some questions for us to prove to us your point and you failed to do that and I take this post of yours as your acceptance that you cannot answer those questions using only the Quran. You have conceded the challange.

We are doing just that by the will of our Lord, and find no intellectual rebuttal to them in your responses; for example, how you refer back to the hadith as your argument, the very thing the authority of which we are debating!
You clearly did not read Br. Ansar's reply. Not to mention that you have no knowledge of Usul ul Fiqh. Here is his reply, please read it this time:

http://www.islamicboard.com/528430-post174.html

Or by asking 'pre-supposed' questions about the Qur'an that do not serve as an intellectual refutation to our arguments, which are built strongly with Qur'anic verses.
Then you should be able to answer them using the Quran which you failed to do in all your posts! Why are you backing away from answering them?! It is because you cannot answer them using only the Quran. You know that, and you fail to acknowledge that.

We have believed in the Qur'an in all its entirety, we believe it is fully detailed, well elaborated and clear because it tells us so.
It also tells you to turn to the Prophet for judgement in affairs or do you take one verse and leave others?!

4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.


You have failed to answer that, and have deviated from writing replies to our replies to your arguements and then you sit back and accuse us of not replying? You are too arrogant to accept that you are ignorant in the Science of Ahadith and any science in the Islamic Sciences for that matter.

We accept this fact before we ask questions of the nature of but's and if's - 'where is this in the Qur'an?', 'where is that in the Qur'an?', 'why has this not been explained further?'

And if they are told: "Follow that which God has sent down." They Say: "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing." What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?" [Qur'an 31:21]

And when Our clear Revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said: "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say: "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!" [Qur’an 10:15]

They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One God, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up. [Qur’an 9:31]


:w:
So i guess, as Ansar said, you wont be celebrating Eid with us. You wont be praying like the Prophet prayed. You wont be paying Zakat in the way it has been ordered to be paid. You wont be performing Hajj the way it has been ordained. You are inventing your own religion based on your "VIEWS". Your views are ill-informed and a product of your ignorance.

45: 23. Have you seen him who takes his own lust (vain desires) as his ilah (god), and Allah knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight. Who then will guide him after Allah? Will you not then remember?

:w:
Reply

duskiness
10-18-2006, 09:19 PM
wow...really interesting thread...it rings familiar bell...in fact it sounds exactly like catholic vs protestant debate (Tradition + Bible vs only Bible). I have just discovered one more common ground between us ;)
Reply

united
10-18-2006, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
wow...really interesting thread...it rings familiar bell...in fact it sounds exactly like catholic vs protestant debate (Tradition + Bible vs only Bible). I have just discovered one more common ground between us ;)
lol
not quite though.
there is no "only bible" today.
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
wow...really interesting thread...it rings familiar bell...in fact it sounds exactly like catholic vs protestant debate (Tradition + Bible vs only Bible). I have just discovered one more common ground between us ;)
Very neat: but I agree with united in that there is a not quite.

For the answer to the question: Why do some people completely reject hadith is this:

INITIATION

That is to say the set of knowledge contained within Torah Gospel Qur'an and of all ahadith, (when the Jews and Christians all accept Mohammed then ahadith will all be one book of every Prophet') is simply the set of knowledge that can not stick in the brain region of certain knowledge unless there has been a WILLING subjection of the individual to the process of being initiated.
(avoiding false initiations such as many full immersion Baptisms are these days etc, since use of the techniques can force the individual into disbelief as readily as belief unless the individual is given this exact knowledge)

All other knowledge is more often disceminated through the system of allegorical teaching. In fact Allegory is also the more common method of communication of the real knowledge of the people of the book. But those whom are not born into that tradition of upkeep of the knowledge system of initiation are far more likely to comprehend the knowledge of the book through an allegorical system of transmission. But then allegorical systems of transmission are far the cleverer at hiding real truth among what is safe for the uninitated to learn. While if an initate comes across allegorical teaching they can interpret at the level of comprehension (seven skies like seven rungs of Jacobs ladder having seven keys of seven initiations, and in Isa alone a reconciling with daily life) at which their initiation received in Allah.

(I got an invite for meeting a Muslim shaytan law student in less than seven hours whom is taking me to meet her Imam):happy: (she fink I wrong about learning by an allegory but nobody can learn what keys another got)

An allegory is always a real story that happened and the key to it is belief. But you can not believe in without empirical experiential evidence verifying, so for most folk it just an entertainment.

Whereas the words of the Prophets (is it true are day written on de subway walls yet?) are all that knowledge which we can not anticipate our own bodily evidence of and thus initiation into is essential.

Also it is by early childhood experience that all ancient cultures determine the necessary way for the child through the public knowledge system because there are always children whom read the Prophesies with no actual bodily initiation past hearing the word

What Saint John the Evangelist told.

wasalam
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-19-2006, 05:41 PM
Also Shaytan have their own why. They can not word and posture align, by simple cause in nature. While only Jinn can imitate dat awake in Allah.
Reply

duskiness
10-19-2006, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by united
there is no "only bible" today.
sorry, i don't get it....?
what about "sola scriptura"?
it's just an analogy and as all imperfect...
Reply

united
10-19-2006, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
sorry, i don't get it....?
what about "sola scriptura"?
it's just an analogy and as all imperfect...
the bible is the equivalent of the hadith in islam. (you can say that the bible is less authentic).
the quran is one step higher.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-19-2006, 08:03 PM
Please keep comparative religion discussions in the appropriate section, thanks. :)
Reply

- Qatada -
10-21-2006, 08:01 AM
:salamext:


This is a brief lecture on the life of Imaam Bukhari [one of the 6 main imaams who collected ahadith throughout his life and then, he recorded them in his Sahih (authentic) book - Sahih al Bukhari.


http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...o-lecture.html
Reply

Mohsin
10-21-2006, 11:17 PM
Excellent debate. masha'allah full marks to bros ansar al 'adl and ahmed for their efforts. The best post must have been ny ahmed, when ameen said to ansaar why dont u use the quran only to argue against me, and yet ameen himself even now can't explain using quran only how to pray etc. subhanallah. I thnk brothers ansar and ahmed hit nail on the head when they said hadith rejectors find a hadith they have difficulty in understanding, and thus go on and say it is a fabricated hadith, without taking the time to speak to a scholar asking them an explanation of the hadith in question. If only they ask :heated:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-21-2006, 11:20 PM
because they are blind man, BLIND. They should really study the Quran!!!
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-23-2006, 05:57 AM
I guess that a part of the full issue is about whether we are enabling acceptance of those whom dispute any ahadith that is not Qur'an without the Ummah. We might know that it is better for a person to be able to manifest belief in Qur'an than in no truth; but surely we must question seriously why any person could want to refute ahadith? Surely if people try to refute other words Mohammed spoke and other prophesy He made, Allah's Peace and Blessings with Him, the they must accept also that they did refute Qur'an thereby.

Each to their own, in Iman and the Ummah I guess.

wasalam
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-24-2006, 03:28 AM
:sl:

Khair. Looks like this debate is over. The Ahadith rejectors have run away again. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

:w:
Reply

lolwatever
10-24-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

Khair. Looks like this debate is over. The Ahadith rejectors have run away again. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

:w:
so tru :X... btw ameen... i'm bak............ u can pm me now coz my inbox is cleared
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-24-2006, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

Khair. Looks like this debate is over.

:w:
i was shocked that it ever started :uuh:
Reply

Musalmaan
10-26-2006, 08:29 AM
just an answer to this short Question

"Why do some people completely reject hadith?"

one of the reason is that they quit the way of learning deen as the way of pious predeccossors. the sahabah learn the deen from prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,
then Tabein (2nd generation) learn it from Sahabah, and so the way continues to the next generation. tabaein did not take Quran and book of hadith from the sahabah and said that Quran and hadith is enough for us, we learn it directly through it. nah, but they use to sit in thier company for long years, and understand the deen of Allah through them (whom Allah blessed them with sound understanding of deen -> fiqh the real interpretaion of Quran and Hadith).

this is the way to learn the deen of Allah,those who will follow this way will insha'Allah be guided to the right path, and those who'll leave this way, will destroy themselves.


may Allah guide us all.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-26-2006, 11:25 AM
:sl: brothers and sisters.
Originally Posted by BoiStop
Salaam x Maz x,




See this another thing about hadiths that really urks me. Alot of times those who are into hadith are very in love with the Messenger a whole lot. They can quote the hadiths like crazy, but can't quote the Quran like crazy aswell. But even more, their love for the MEssenger is quite evident in the way that they speak.

You put a blessing behind the Prophet's name, but you do not put anytype of blessing when you mention God.

Seriously, values seem to be shifted.
well excuse me, but Allah Himself states: Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet, O you who believe! call for (divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming salutation).
33:56

:sl:
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-26-2006, 11:26 AM
:sl: brothers and sister.
maybe im abit late in my opinion but here goes:
maybe you should look at the time that the collectors of ahadith actulally collected them.
another thing, maybe you should look at the actual clarification of ahadith, how the scholars went to so much effot of preserve it. ill suggest you read: "an introduction to the science of hadith." by dr. Suhaib Hasan.

i myself havnt read it, but have flipped through it. subhanallah, the effort is...amazzing. please do. this is a serious issue.


one other thing. when you read, say scientific books, about the structure of water, or even a history book, not necessarily islamic, do you believe them. if yes, than why do you not believe that people would preserve the sayings and or actions of the prophet (sallalahu alehi wa salam).

get my drift??

:sl:
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justahumane
10-29-2006, 08:50 AM
One question regarding hadith.

Hadith, as it is said, came in form of scripures 200 years after the death of the holy prophet. What actually was the source for muslims, during those 200 yrs, for understanding Sunnah?

Thanks
Reply

Mohsin
10-29-2006, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane
One question regarding hadith.

Hadith, as it is said, came in form of scripures 200 years after the death of the holy prophet. What actually was the source for muslims, during those 200 yrs, for understanding Sunnah?

Thanks
Salam

I think its been proven from this thread that it is not the case that hadith were made into scriptures after 200 years. See here where it is proved even before compilations such as sahih Bukhari, there existed hadith compilations
Reply

hakkerz
10-29-2006, 10:19 PM
Salam, just a reply to the first comment made in this thread

" either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR! ".

I honestly am not too bothered by the reasoning, muslim, 3alim (knowledgable person) or not, you have pretty much no right to kafir somebody, for something which doesnt agree with your way of thinking. I do agree with hadiths, but why all the hate? Say that in your eyes you dont agree with it, by denouncing them as a kafir is hardly going to help them reach the 'right' conclusion as you see it, and secondly, if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.

Either way, thats my opinion, and this whole issue of hadith is such a long one, it seems the whole basis of it was to prove a point as apposed to seek knowledge. lol..the conclusion was pretty much made before the arguement and reasons were set out.

Take care...

...Asking your Duaas.

Peace.
Reply

Mohsin
10-30-2006, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by hakkerz
Salam, just a reply to the first comment made in this thread

" either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR! ".

I honestly am not too bothered by the reasoning, muslim, 3alim (knowledgable person) or not, you have pretty much no right to kafir somebody, for something which doesnt agree with your way of thinking. I do agree with hadiths, but why all the hate? Say that in your eyes you dont agree with it, by denouncing them as a kafir is hardly going to help them reach the 'right' conclusion as you see it, and secondly, if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.

Either way, thats my opinion, and this whole issue of hadith is such a long one, it seems the whole basis of it was to prove a point as apposed to seek knowledge. lol..the conclusion was pretty much made before the arguement and reasons were set out.

Take care...

...Asking your Duaas.

Peace.

Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??
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SirZubair
10-30-2006, 09:35 AM
As for the [site link removed] site, it is from the so-called "submitters" group, personally I would stay away from it. All scholars agree they are outside the fold of Islam.
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Mohsin
10-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
As for the [link removed] site, it is from the so-called "submitters" group, personally I would stay away from it. All scholars agree they are outside the fold of Islam.
My friends met a quranite submitter or whatever they call themselves a few years ago. He's very much different to the ones on this thread, he has some very strange beliefs. They only pray 3 times a day, and by praying, they don't do salah as we do with ruku sajdah etc but they apprently just sit and meditate, not zikr, just meditation. I think there are different spectrums to this deviant sect
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InToTheRain
10-30-2006, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Mohsin
My friends met a quranite submitter or whatever they call themselves a few years ago. He's very much different to the ones on this thread, he has some very strange beliefs. They pray 5 times a day, and by praying, they don't do salah as we do with ruku sajdah etc but they apprently just sit and meditate, not zikr, just meditation. I think there are different spectrums to this deviant sect
Thats Sufism akhi
Reply

Mohsin
10-30-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Thats Sufism akhi
No i think you should re-read my post, these people i was referring to are people who reject hadith completely and read quran only. wherever in the quran it says u have to pray the person said it means just meditating. sufism is different, they still perform salah
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hakkerz
10-30-2006, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Mohsin
Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??
Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death. Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death. Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing. The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was), secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right. For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow? And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)

I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.

Asking your Duaas...
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-30-2006, 05:59 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by hakkerz
Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death.
Major misconception. Ahadith were written down at the time of the Prophet and Sahih Bukhari was NOT the first book of Hadith! There were over 15 written in the first century alone and about 40 in the second! See this link, look under Misconception #1:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death.
Thats news to me. What was burned after his death?! The Sahaba burned the words of the Messenger?

Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing.
It equates when one rejects the Ahadith becuase he is rejecting what the Prophet said that was not part of the Quran. The question here is not about rejecting then, it would be about authencity. By rejecting Sahih Bukhari and the other Ahadith that are regarded as Sahih equates to rejecting Ahadith, even rejecting one when it was been authenticated.

The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was),
Then the Quran too was only for those at the time of the Prophet and not for us! Allah equates obeying him with obeying the Messenger! Therefore, the Ahadith contain the instructions of the Messenger that are not in the Quran, how to pray and other details of the religion, to reject Ahadith, one cannot follow Islam in the least. That is why by the consensus of the Ummah, the Ahadith rejectors are outside the fold of Islam, ie not muslims.

secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right.
That does not happen to anyone except a person that is the most ignorant in the science of Ahadith and Usul ul Fiqh. That is the problem with Ahadith rejectors, they base their opinions on their ignorance. And if you do not know, why are there scholors? What is stopping you from going to them and asking?!

For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow?
But they do not contradict.

And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)
It is obliagtory on a muslim to believe in the Ahadith because that is entailed if one believes in the Quran. It is obligatory to follow those that are classified as Sahih, ie. the ones in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.


I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.
Asking your Duaas...
There are no differences of opinion regarding the Ahadith among the scholors. It is only the laymen that read a hadith and dont understand and end up rejecting it because of their ignorance and because they refuse to ask those that know.

:w:
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Umar001
10-30-2006, 06:07 PM
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Hi, brother Hakkerz, I would just like to say a couple of things, insha'Allah.
Hope all is well.
If I have misunderstood anything please be patient with me and forgive my shortcoming inshaAllah.

Originally Posted by hakkerz
if Allah wanted us to judge people, then on of the names of Alah wouldnt be 'Al haseeb' : The Reckoner, and judgement day would have no point.
I disagree, I don't think we should be quick to call people kafir, or anything, neither do I think that 'us' as in common people should go round labelling people kafir, but I dont think what you stated about not being a 'judge' because Allah has that name, well Allah has the name Al.... The... we cannot be THE Judge, for example, it is like saying, we canot be merciful because Allah is Al Rahman, no, we cannot be THE Most Mericful, but we should show Mercy.

I have a little book, entitled "The Obligation of Action Upon the Sunnah of the Messenger And the Unbelief of Those Who Reject it" By Abdul Azeez Ibn Abdillah Ibn Baz. Now with all due respect brother, maybe the scholars know some knowledge we don't with regards to this matter? For surely, not all as some claim are following desires.


Originally Posted by hakkerz
Woow..Akhi, huge huge difference. If i was to take your example of being at the time of the prophet, there was no such thing as hadiths, because the first hadith book was written nearly 250 years after the prophets (Pbuh) death. Assuming u dont count those that were burnt directly after his death. Secondly, rejecting what the hadiths, does not mean you reject what the prophet says. Youve drawn the two as though they are one thing. The Quran tells us, 'ati3 al rasool' = and obey the prophet, firstly that was meant to apply to those at the time of the prophet (look at the context in which it was), secondly, the principle of rejecting hadiths may not be to disobey or 'deilberatly reject' what the prophet said, but rather, how about if you believe that the hadiths are not right. For example. Bukhari says, i leave you my Sunnah (hadiths) and the Quran. Muslim and Tirmithee narrate a different version. Which do i follow? And does accepting hadiths mean that i must accept all the hadiths, (taking into account that the VAST VAST majority of the hadiths that are narrated are NOT authenticated (sahihs), and only a small percentage, a couple of thousand are said to be authentic)

I do believe in hadiths, dont get me wrong, and i read them and learn them, and learn from them, but i think to take your idea/belief, apply it upon the rest of the muslim nation, when clearly there are differences in opinion is wrong...Again, just an opinion.

Asking your Duaas...
I'm very happy to hear that you do believe in the authentic ahadeth, and I agree that someone who rejects a hadith because they think it's fabricated is not rejecting the Prophet peace be upon him, as such.

I have a question though, you said the first hadeeth book was written after approx of 200 years, what hold you to believe that? What book was that?

In an article named "Are There Any Early Hadiths?" the writer states:

The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih: This is perhaps one of the earliest known hadith collections. Hammam bin Munabbih was a student of Abu Hurrairah and well-known among the scholars of the hadith to be trustworthy.
And

which comprises 138 hadith and is believed to have been written around the mid-first AH/seventh century.
Some ask why don't we have such books now, and some reply that the reason is that, because these books were small, holding only low hundrends of hadeeth, later the compilers absorbed these smaller books into their Big compilations, such as Sahih Bukhari, and so forth, so there was no need to hold loads of little books, but rather have a big book which held them all and some additional ones. This is why:

We can see that of the 138 narrations in the Sahifa, 98 of them are faithfully witnessed in the later collections of al-Bukhari and Muslim, both through narrations of Abu Hurrairah and witnessing narrations from other Companions.
Anyhow, I think the above has been asnwered many times before, by people much more knowledgeable than me on this board, if you want to hear talks on Ahadeth maybe you could listen to Yasir Qadhi, whom's talks I persnolly love and have learnt basic science of Hadith.

Assalamu Aleykum :)

Oh Article can be found 'Are There Any Early hadith?'
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seeker_of_ilm
10-30-2006, 06:13 PM
:sl:

I agree, everyone should listen to Yasir Qadhis talk, on Usul al Hadith:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
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hakkerz
10-30-2006, 06:59 PM
Wow...i jst came back to see all your replies. Appologies for my misconceptions and my ignorance, as you like to put it. Im willing to swallow my pride, but again, i really think that what IsaAbdullah and Ahmed said just highlights the intolerance of our Muslim Ummah. I accept a lot of what you said, and dont get me wrong, im not saying this out of hate or any such feeling, however simply having a difference of opinion does NOT show ignorance!?

""There are no differences of opinion regarding the Ahadith among the scholors. It is only the laymen that read a hadith and dont understand and end up rejecting it because of their ignorance and because they refuse to ask those that know.""

I think we end up treating non-muslims better than our own muslim brothers. Want a prophetic saying? Al-deen al mu3amalah. Religion is how you treat people/mannerism. Imagine, just for one moment, that you went to a non-muslim and told him that what he believed was due to his ignorance and because they dont understand, very polite indeed. Islam in essence isnt about prayer,fasting,hadiths,the quran, etc. the whole of Islam is to try and establish the perfect society, with the perfect akhlaq. The above are just means to getting to them, for e.g in the Quran it says, Prayer prevents al fahshaa wal munkar, (performing evil and sinful acts, or to that meaning). Im not a scholar, and i asked to seek knowledge and expressed an opinion, not to show others ignorance or lack of 'understanding'.

Im all to hearing other peoples opinions, but i also respect them.

Ultimately, there are many scholars, and they vary in opinion greatly, (and im talking within the same 'sect', if u want to call it that), if one does not share such an opinion as yours, is he deemed ignorant?

Not that i am saying anybody is, but we are not immune from making mistakes, or misunderstanding, or simply not knowing.

One point regarding what you were saying though

"It is obligatory to follow those that are classified as Sahih, ie. the ones in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim."

Well, i appologise if this is an ignorant question, enlighten me, but if there were hundreds of thousands of hadiths, and only a few thousand are seen as sahih by Bukhari and Muslim. Is it not possible that they made a mistake? Possibly? or were they perfect/infallible? Its a serious question, coz i have a friend who always asks me that, and i tell him whilst they are not perfect,the testing carried out was to such a high level, that the liklihood for error is near impossible, yet, he says there is still room for error? He also says that assuming only a small % well 'sahih', who fabricated all the other hadiths?

If your wondering why im slightly annoyed, its because i think challenging a certain way of thinking, is a way of increasing in your belief. Alot of what he says only makes me more certain i am on the right path, yet i ask a question that questions the same beliefs i have, and all of a sudden like some outcast.

I will be the first to appologise for my ignorance and lack of understanding, and im sure i am not as knowledgable as you are. I intend no offence, nor to patronise you, it is an attempt to seek knowledge and increase in Iman...

A persian scholar says, a very long time ago, when there were still very few muslims in the 'West':

I went to the West and i saw Islam, but i saw no Muslims. And i went to the East, and i saw Muslims, but saw no Islam...

Asking your pious Duaas and Supplications...

Ahmad
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hakkerz
10-30-2006, 07:02 PM
Edit: Sorry, i didnt mean to have a go at anybody, and IsaAbdullah, you said nothing of what i was talking about, and i appologise, i just referring to the fact that both of you had long replies. Thank you for the lectures, and for your kind reply.

Salam
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InToTheRain
10-30-2006, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Mohsin
No i think you should re-read my post, these people i was referring to are people who reject hadith completely and read quran only. wherever in the quran it says u have to pray the person said it means just meditating. sufism is different, they still perform salah
:sl:

That may be so akhi, but remember even they have sects within them, such as some Shias believe Ali(RA) shouldv'e been the prophet and some shias just didn't like certain Sahabas but say Mohammad(SAW) is the best of mankind.

Similiarly in Sufism we have those who do not do Salat. They just meditate and say their prayer has been done by meditating.

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mess...ssionID=531320


:w:
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snakelegs
10-30-2006, 09:35 PM
i am just beginning to read the hadith and can see the role they play in elaborating on the qur'an, getting to know the prophet more, etc.
question i have is that why, when the hadith are more strict than the qur'an - and the subject matter seems serious enough that if it were truly important, it would be in the qur'an - are the hadith given preference, or followed?
i'm thinking of things like death for apostasy
death for willfully neglecting salat, etc.
some of these harsh judgements seem to be hard to reconcile with god the merciful.
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Umar001
10-30-2006, 10:00 PM
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah

Hi, Br. Hakkerz,
Originally Posted by hakkerz
Edit: Sorry, i didnt mean to have a go at anybody, and IsaAbdullah, you said nothing of what i was talking about, and i appologise, i just referring to the fact that both of you had long replies. Thank you for the lectures, and for your kind reply.

Salam
I was abit confused at what you said, I understood that maybe Br. Ahmed's reply could have been seen as 'stern' but I was just sharing what I knew and I didnt mean to make you think I called you ignorant or thought you were ignorant, I dont think it would be a great thing to go upto anyone and say 'Your Ignorant' as that would hardly work.

I, just had learnt opposite things to what you had said, and I put them accross, as a brother, who was just sharing knowledge, the little I had thats all.

Don't feel I was talking down to you, or belittlelin you, or anything, I actually thought I sounded very open, I tried to.

Anyway, I am sorry if you felt that I had any hate or anger towards you, inshaAllah you don't :)

Love you for the sake of Allah.

With regards to what your friend asks you, again, you just tell him, that its not just one or two people that classify the hadeeth, yes Bukhari did, but even upto now, Al Albani is still classifyin them, looking at certain areas, you find it articles, 'Tirmithy, classified Sahih by Al Albani' I think personally that there is such alot of work that goes into it, not by one, or two but alot of Muhaddith that it is improbable that they would all lie or make the same mistake.

:) InshaAllah hope your well.

Assalamu Aleykum, Eesa
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hakkerz
10-30-2006, 10:22 PM
Dear Br.IsaAbdullah

I am sincerely sorry that you felt my message was aimed at you. I thought your first and latest posts were informative, and very well put. You ofended me in no way, and i appreciate your replies, they have taught me a lot. I an truely sorry if you felt i was rude in my reply, that was not my intention, irrespective of whom it was targeted to.

You have a very kind way of putting things, and certainly, didnt feel you attempted to belittle me.

Again, sincere apologies..

Asking for your duaas and supplications in your prayers...

Take care...

Salam. Ahmad.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
10-31-2006, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i am just beginning to read the hadith and can see the role they play in elaborating on the qur'an, getting to know the prophet more, etc.
Excellent.
question i have is that why, when the hadith are more strict than the qur'an - and the subject matter seems serious enough that if it were truly important, it would be in the qur'an - are the hadith given preference, or followed?
There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.
i'm thinking of things like death for apostasy
Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.
death for willfully neglecting salat, etc.
Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.
some of these harsh judgements seem to be hard to reconcile with god the merciful.
No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.
Reply

Hijrah
10-31-2006, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Excellent.

There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.

Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.

Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.

No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.
Brother, 3 of the 4 major schools of fiqh, agree that the punishment for willfully neglecting salat is death
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Ansar Al-'Adl
10-31-2006, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
Brother, 3 of the 4 major schools of fiqh, agree that the punishment for willfully neglecting salat is death
You're confusing two things. It is not a seperate punishment from apostasy, what they are saying is that wilfully neglecting salah IS apostasy, because how can someone who purposefully rejects and abandons the salah be considered Muslim? And once one understands that this is an issue of apostasy, all the points I mentioned before on apostasy apply here as well and it has to be clear that the person has actually disbelieved in the way described and refuses to repent.

:w:
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Hijrah
10-31-2006, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
You're confusing two things. It is not a seperate punishment from apostasy, what they are saying is that wilfully neglecting salah IS apostasy, because how can someone who purposefully rejects and abandons the salah be considered Muslim? And once one understands that this is an issue of apostasy, all the points I mentioned before on apostasy apply here as well and it has to be clear that the person has actually disbelieved in the way described and refuses to repent.

:w:
o so if someone repents for neglecting salah, they go free?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
10-31-2006, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
o so if someone repents for neglecting salah, they go free?
Of course!
:w:
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snakelegs
10-31-2006, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
There are several problems with your above comment. First of all you have made an assumption about what kind of content is found in the Qur'an and what kind is found in the Sunnah, but your assumption is false. The division between content is not based on 'more important' or 'less important'. Every teaching of Islam is significant. So this is not the point of distinction. Rather, as I mentioned numerous times in this thread, in general the fundamentals of the message of Islam and its guidance are found in the Qur'an, whereas the practical implementation, the laws, details and explanations, specific prophecies are found in the Sunnah.
Secondly, the hadith are not more strict than the Qur'an. I assume that you are thinking of penal law, but there is still no case where the hadith prescribe a more severe punishment than the Qur'an. They clarify the context and conditions of those punishments. Lastly, the Qur'an and Ahâdîth are taken together. We don't take from one instead of the other in some cases. We follow the Qur'an in light of the Ahâdîth NOT taking the Ahâdîth instead of the Qur'an.

Here but I'm sure you've alreadey seen this.
thanks for your reply. yes, there is much i don't know and i probably am guilty of making assumptions. the qur'an is the word of god and the hadiths are writings by the companions of the prophet. how can they be of equal weight?
you say the hadiths are not more harsh than the qur'an, but the qur'an does not prescribe death for apostasy, does it?
yes, i had read the link you gave before.

Where did you get this from?! The only way this can occur is in the case of apostasy in which case you were wrong in distinguishing it from the above.
well, if a person deliberately neglects his prayers, he is guilty of apostasy, which is punishable by death - so the end result is the same....
No, they are not. God is Merciful, but He is Just. ANYONE who repents no matter WHAT they have done, they will be forgiven. THAT is God's mercy. God's punishment only comes upon those who persist in their misguidance and stubbornly refuse to repent. He has made it so easy for people to accept the truth but they still turn away and reject the bounties of God.
yes, i am aware of this. but the fact remains, if the apostate persists in his apostasy, he deserves to be killed. i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.

16:33 ...And in no way was God unjust to them, but rather they were unjust to themselves.
i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an.
there is a lot i don't understand, but i am learning - at first i couldn't figure out the need for the hadiths at all. :giggling:
but i do have trouble grasping certain concepts.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-31-2006, 01:19 AM
and THAT'S the mercy of Allah(swt). SubhanAllah, even after such a thing as apostasy.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-31-2006, 01:23 AM
i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.
That still applies to today bro. There are people who leave Islam and find it amusing to bash Islam and produce books on it. You know Salman Rushdies book are accepted in some universities? How would i take that? Is that not being traitors? People actually defend their biases with things like that.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-31-2006, 01:35 AM
Hi Snakelegs,
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks for your reply. yes, there is much i don't know and i probably am guilty of making assumptions. the qur'an is the word of god and the hadiths are writings by the companions of the prophet. how can they be of equal weight?
I don't know how much of this thread you've read/understood but it should have been clear why your above comment is wrong. The Ahadith constitute the documentation of the Sunnah, which we can describe as the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. BOTH the Qur'an and Sunnah are revelation from God. The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. We understand the Qur'an in light of the Ahadith, we don't see it as a competition between the two sources as to which is weightier because that whole mentality is flawed. They are taken together not in opposition to one another. When we follow the Qur'an, we follow it in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Can you understand from this perspective why it is absurd to pit the two against eachother and ask which would win?
you say the hadiths are not more harsh than the qur'an, but the qur'an does not prescribe death for apostasy, does it?
But since it is silent on the legal punishment altogether you cannot claim that one is more harsh than the other. If the hadith said that the punishment was death and the Qur'an said that it wasn't or that it was just a fine, THEN you could make such a claim of the hadith being more harsh. But when the Ahadith discusses a subject that is not discussed altogether in the Qur'an, making such a comparison is illogical.
well, if a person deliberately neglects his prayers, he is guilty of apostasy, which is punishable by death - so the end result is the same....
But it is not a different punishment, in both cases the punishment being discussed IS the punishment for apostasy.
yes, i am aware of this. but the fact remains, if the apostate persists in his apostasy, he deserves to be killed.
How can you be merciful to someone who does not want and rejects your mercy?? Think about the use of the word. "He was begging for mercy", "she was at his mercy", "please have mercy on me!", etc. In all cases the person has to be receptive of the opportunity of forgiveness offered.
i understand this in the times when islam was young and under attack - that these people could be seen as traitors, and a very real liability to the community so they were considered deserving of death. but i don't understand it in modern times.
We are getting way off topic here so if you want to discuss this further I advise pm. But briefly, the punishment is not for one who makes a personal change in religious belief or convictions and does not make it a public affair. The punishment comes into play when someone openly renounces their faith, challenging the state and damaging the teamwork of the Muslim community. And it is not about the faith of others being weak as I have repeatedly mentioned before, it is about the strength of the community as a team in their relationship before God.
i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an.
Why do you have this erroneous assumption that such a matter should be found in the content of the Qur'an?
but i do have trouble grasping certain concepts.
Learning is a process :)

Peace.
Reply

snakelegs
10-31-2006, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Qur'an is divinely revealed in both meaning and words while the Ahadith are only divinely revealed in meaning and the words are those of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.?
actually, they are the words of prophet muhammad as reported by the companions (human beings - i realize that there is a whole science built around what is authentic and what is not - but that to, is according to human beings, who, unlike god, are fallible.
i had written:
"i do unerstand the concept of the door to repentance is always open and that god is merciful. but i have trouble understanding why, in a matter as grave as death, god does not mention it in the qur'an."
[COLOR]
Why do you have this erroneous assumption that such a matter should be found in the content of the Qur'an?
to tell you the truth, i am not sure why. if i tried to answer, i would just be repeating myself. but i do have a hard time grasping this one. so for now, it will be one more thing in my Things I Don't Understand file. thanks for your replies.
i have not read this whole thread yet, but i intend to because i find this topic very interesting.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-31-2006, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
actually, they are the words of prophet muhammad as reported by the companions (human beings - i realize that there is a whole science built around what is authentic and what is not - but that to, is according to human beings, who, unlike god, are fallible.
One of the things you will find out once you read this thread is that the same people who preserved the Qur'an preserved the Ahadith - it was God who enabled that preservation and ensured that it would stand eternally. So it is inconsistent to say this is what the prophet pbuh says as reported by the companions but then not include the same interjection when speaking about the Qur'an. Both the Ahadith and the Qur'an are divinely protected; the companions were only the means by which this happened. Please see:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Peace!
Reply

snakelegs
10-31-2006, 07:47 AM
hi ansar,
thanks for the link. a lot of info in that article - i learned a few things about the hadiths.
i also thought it was interesting that "hikma" - wisdom - comes from the same root as "hukam" - command. i never connected the 2 words.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
11-01-2006, 07:50 AM
Since the issue of apostasy has come up, I would recommend everyone to read this article:

http://www.islamhouse.com/en/articles/apostasy.htm
Reply

AceOfHearts
11-09-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Mohsin
Brother, I think the whole reason scholars say hadith-rejectors are non-muslims are because they deny or delibarately disobey verses of the Qur'an which tell us to obey the Prophet PBUH. If one was to delibarately reject the sayings of the prophet pbuh, surely he is rejecting the will of Allah. If you were a companion at the time of the prophet PBUH would you even think of rejecting him? So what difference does it make now that he is not here??
:sl:

No, it is obey the "messenger", the "rasool", that is the wording used in the Qur'an through out, not obey the "prophet".

Think of it this way:

A messenger carries a message. And the messenger's message is the Qur'an. What you are doing is that you are taking 'obeying Allah', and 'obeying His messenger' as two seperate things, whereas in truth, they are but one.

The messenger was sent and narrated Allah's message, the Qur'an. For us, whomsoever follows and obeys the contents of the Qur'an, has automatically obeyed the messenger.

Allah narrates His message (the Qur'an) through His agency to mankind, the messenger. 'Allah and His messenger' are but one identity (so to speak). That is why 'Allah and His messenger' has also been identified as one in the following verses of the Qur'an:

"O Ye who believe! Put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger; but fear Allah: for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things." [Qur'an 49:1]

and...

"And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve." [Qur'an 9:3]

The Qur'an is making the announcement, yet this announcement is from both "Allah and His messenger", proving that they are both a single "identity", and that 'Allah and His messenger' both manifest in the Qur'an. The following verse also shows us that 'Allah and His Messenger' are one "identity":

"Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them." [Qur’an 4:80]

The Qur'an encompasses both God's message and His messenger's message. 'Obeying Allah and obeying the messenger' is therefore (for us) obeying a single source revealed for mankind, the Qur'an. When the physical messenger passes away, obedience is due to his message (the Qur'an) only.

When one obeys and follows what is in the Qur'an, s/he automatically obeys the messenger.

I hope the above is clear for all.

:w:
Reply

Rou
11-09-2006, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by samobosna96
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN HADITH YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM. The Quran sayis you must obey God and the Messenger, therefore as a Muslim you have an obligation to believe in sound authentic hadith. Why dont you go join the International Submitters or whatever the followers of Rashid Khilafah call themselves, either way those who do not believe in hadith are KAFAR!

And yes Muslims are to kill those who first believe in the oneness of God then do not believe in the Oneness of God. This is apart of Islam just like it is in Judaism and Christianity whether you like it or not.

but in islam those who have no compulsion are those outside of Islam, the people of the book and the kafars. those who leave islam have been infected with a disease of the heart and mind injected by secular materialist ideologies and powers.
for one brother calm down calling fellow muslims kafar is a very big statment...it is stated no where that if we dont follow the hadith that youare not a muslim?

i beleive in the quran without doubt but i am careful with the hadith as not all hadith can be trusted so it is better to becarful when studying the hadith...

the quran is the word of allah where as the hadith is the word of men who say they heard our prophet stating these things and indeed much can be true but we cannot what is true and what is not heance why only certain ones are trusted...so no one states not to beleive as it harms you not at the point where it does then that is a mans choice that does not make him kafar...

you state in the quran it states that follow allah and his prophet and indeed that is what muslims do...

it also states in the quran that the quran is allahs final message to us and the quran has all within it to sustain muslims in this world...

the hadiths cannot be guarnteed where as the quran can...

within the hadiths themselves prophet muhammed (PBUH) states that "write nothing of what i say down expect the quran!"

and this appears a few times in the hadith yet still the hadith exist?

a contradiction...there is not one contradiction in the quran....

also if we look at the hadith things are out of place for example...

there is a hadith that states it is forbidden to wear gold , or that if you die while wearing gold you will not receive the gold of jannat...

now...how detailed is the quran? as stated by allah the quran is the path for muslims and his full and final message..yet it mentions nothing of not wearing gold or to becareful with gold??

it but only mentions gold in the stages of not being greedy with such things as gold and silver or that we will wear gold braclets in jannat...

if the hadith were true then that would be a contradiction...

also you talk of salat as in namaz...the quran states many verses on praying so not quite sure where this has risen from?

no one states not to beleive the hadith as inded there is much truth but be careful as words of men are in the end words of men...

:w:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-09-2006, 10:27 PM
:sl: Companion,

You have the audacity to post about your deviant views again when you have failed to answer ONE of our questions in the past 3 weeks! Here are you are again with the same, repetitive arguement that was shattered into thousands of pieces and then buried when you failed to respond to even one of our questions and here are you are again trying to put across this ideology to others when you are even incapable of defending and proving it.

No, it is obey the "messenger", the "rasool", that is the wording used in the Qur'an through out, not obey the "prophet".
Already responded to in previous posts. You are just repeating your arguements and cannot defend them.

Think of it this way:
The core problem with your arguement. You are basing your whole ideology on your own misinterpretations and you are taking what you like and leaving what you dont like. You are thinking of it the way your whims and desires want you to think and needless to say, they are the wrong way.

Messenger's message is the Qur'an. What you are doing is that you are taking 'obeying Allah', and 'obeying His messenger' as two seperate things, whereas in truth, they are but one.
What is your proof beside your own whims and desires?! You have yet to respond to ONE of our questions. You will NEVER be able to answer them either because you cannot. And that itself is sufficient proof that your path is a path of falsehood and your path is not Islam.

The messenger was sent and narrated Allah's message, the Qur'an. For us, whomsoever follows and obeys the contents of the Qur'an, has automatically obeyed the messenger.
By Allah, look at your arguement. Look how the Truth of your falsehood is apparent in your writing. Look at the bold part.

Allah narrates His message (the Qur'an) through His agency to mankind, the messenger. 'Allah and His messenger' are but one identity (so to speak). That is why 'Allah and His messenger' has also been identified as one in the following verses of the Qur'an:

"O Ye who believe! Put not yourselves forward before Allah and His Messenger; but fear Allah: for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things." [Qur'an 49:1]
Then WHY doesn't the Quran tell us HOW to pray?! You will always avoid this question because this one question tears your arguments to shreds.
and...

"And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve."

[Qur'an 9:3]

The Qur'an is making the announcement, yet this announcement is from both "Allah and His messenger", proving that they are both a single "identity", and that 'Allah and His messenger' both manifest in the Qur'an. The following verse also shows us that 'Allah and His Messenger' are one "identity":
Then WHY does Allah say obey Allah and His Messenger as TWO seperete identities in the verses that say this?!

"Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them." [Qur’an 4:80]

The Qur'an encompasses both God's message and His messenger's message. 'Obeying Allah and obeying the messenger' is therefore (for us) obeying a single source revealed for mankind, the Qur'an. When the physical messenger passes away, obedience is due to his message (the Qur'an) only.
And then if obiedance is due to the Quran, you will be left with instuctions and have no idea how to follow them. I wonder what you pray like.

When one obeys and follows what is in the Qur'an, s/he automatically obeys the messenger.

I hope the above is clear for all.
Yes the matter is very clear. You have proved that your own way is false, yet again. The Messenger of Allah is free of your slanders upon him, and so are his Companions and those that came after them.

Last time I requested that you not start your next post with answering our questions and you ignored it because you cannot answer them. Again, DO NOT post in this thread without a reply to all our arguements because needless to say, you have no arguement left.

Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.
If your next post does not contain a response to this and our other arguements and contains just a repitition of your previous posts, it will be deleted.

:w:
Reply

Rou
11-10-2006, 07:30 AM
???????? brothers calm down....

this is what breaks the ummah when we stop talking and start arguing what is the issue here??? companion are you stating that the prophet and allah are one person? (in the sense that the trinety are one?) for that is not the facts brother...

however if you are stating that allah was reffering to the quran as the message then that is a step better that the previous option...

Ahmed brother there is no need to get so aggressive i admit i have not read companions previous posts but we are all brothers here there is no need to argue in this way we must remember we are but loooking at our faith we are not trying to insult it...

now indeed the quran mentions the form of sallat that we talk of however as the hadith it does not show fully namaz...prophet muhammed pbuh in the hadith stated that follow what i do remember it but do not write it down this was said on many occassions however still the hadith exist and i dont say the hadiths are all lies however they are words of men that are able to be changed as the prophet stated remember what i do...but it was written down by third parties now that is subject to change and mistrust beacuse in the end as i stated we are human...

,istakes and misinterpretation can lead astray i suggest follow hadith but be careful as long as the hadith does not hinder the direct message of the quran the big message...and that is to be good and follow in the way of allah not to harm innocents and protect mankind not destroy it...
Reply

Umar001
11-10-2006, 08:26 AM
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Let it be known that I love Muslims for the sake of Allah,

I have been reluctant to post here, since I, 1. Feel these type of topic requires a certain amount of knowledge, 2. That it seems to be like a tanble tennis game going endlessly back and forth.



Originally Posted by Companion

No, it is obey the "messenger", the "rasool", that is the wording used in the Qur'an through out, not obey the "prophet".

Think of it this way:

A messenger carries a message. And the messenger's message is the Qur'an. What you are doing is that you are taking 'obeying Allah', and 'obeying His messenger' as two seperate things, whereas in truth, they are but one.
Rather, I feel that you are mistaken, that analogy is flawed, it would only work if the Messenger was only sent to deliver and then leave.

Rather, an analogy of better quality is that:

A messenger carries a message, and this message is a guidance for mankind, then this messenger while delivering this message, also explains it's ruling and implimentations.

So instead, we see that, the Qu'ran is but part of the Message of Islam, the Messenger delivered it, and also explained it. So we are obeying Allah is obeying Allah's word, the Qu'ran, and then obeying the Messenger is obeying the Explanation and Implimentations and Rulings given.

The Proof is found in various verses:

With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

16:44

And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

16:64


The rest of your post is thus the same, quoting verses which obligate a Muslim to follow Allah and Allah's messenger, so you claim that Allah and His Messenger are as if 'one entity'.

I agree to an extent that obeying the Messenger is Obeying Allah, why, because, of Allah's statements of it being so. But it is not true that it means that it is then refering to obeying the messenger just means obey the Qu'ran.

Rather, we are told to obey others other than Allah and His messenger, does this make them 'one entity'?

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

4:59

So by that reasoning, because we are told to obey those in Authority they are one in entity? Rather, we known the Prophet did not speak of his own desire, Surah An Najm 1-5, we know that if he lied about Allah he would have been siezed, so his speech outside the Qu'ran, his explanation of the Qu'ran is revelation. Revelation from who? Allah, thus obeying that revelation outside the Qu'ran is obeying Allah.

To proceed, Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah Brother Rou, :)

Originally Posted by Rou
For one brother calm down calling fellow muslims kafar is a very big statment...it is stated no where that if we dont follow the hadith that youare not a muslim?
Maybe not in those very words, but it is a clear matter.

Originally Posted by Rou
i beleive in the quran without doubt but i am careful with the hadith as not all hadith can be trusted so it is better to becarful when studying the hadith...
There is no problem that I can see in that, that is why Mustala Hadeeth is there, and the volumes and volumes of different people and who they narrated from and so forth is there, so that one is careful, when classifying hadeeth.

Originally Posted by Rou
the quran is the word of allah where as the hadith is the word of men who say they heard our prophet stating these things and indeed much can be true but we cannot what is true and what is not heance why only certain ones are trusted...so no one states not to beleive as it harms you not at the point where it does then that is a mans choice that does not make him kafar...
Rather, you are speaking about the preservation, you said "he quran is the word of allah where as the hadith is the word of men who say they heard our prophet stating these things" The Qu'ran is the word or Allah, Hadeeth is the Word of Muhammad, or actions or tacid approvals, and both of them are relayed and preserved through Men.

The Qu'ran was memorised and compiled, Hadeeth memories and compiled.

If a hadeeth is authentic then it is obligatory that a Muslim follows it, just as the Qu'ran is known to have come down clear, that hadeeth classified authentic is now known to have come down clear, and because Muhammad did not lie about Allah then it is an obligation to follow it.

Originally Posted by Rou
it also states in the quran that the quran is allahs final message to us and the quran has all within it to sustain muslims in this world...

the hadiths cannot be guarnteed where as the quran can...

and this appears a few times in the hadith yet still the hadith exist?

a contradiction...there is not one contradiction in the quran....

also if we look at the hadith things are out of place for example...

there is a hadith that states it is forbidden to wear gold , or that if you die while wearing gold you will not receive the gold of jannat...

now...how detailed is the quran? as stated by allah the quran is the path for muslims and his full and final message..yet it mentions nothing of not wearing gold or to becareful with gold??

it but only mentions gold in the stages of not being greedy with such things as gold and silver or that we will wear gold braclets in jannat...

if the hadith were true then that would be a contradiction...
Rather your mistaken, allow me to put an example:

If I send you a letter with a messenger, then I say in the letter, 'this messenger will explain to you my message clearly, and I will know if he lies about me, and he will instanly die, so follow my message it is enough for you'

Now, would you not follow the explanation given by the messenger? Although I have stated that the message is enough, I have also stated that the message will be explained, also through my stating that if the messenger says anything about me that is not true he will die, you should know that you should follow everything the messenger says, unless he lied and you'd know because he would be siezed by me.

So similarly if the Prophet is explaining the message of Islaam and explains the Halal and Haram, and that Gold is Haram, this is not a contradiction (unless you can show that the Qu'ran says Gold is not haram) rather the topic was left out of the Qu'ran, and then explained under the title of Halal and Haram by the Prophet, no contradiction.

I remind you all that I love you all for the sake of Allah and hope that Allah has mercy on us and imparts knowledge of His religion in our hearts. That He forgives me for any wrong I've said.

Assalam Aleykum Wa Rhametulah, Brother Eesa.
Reply

scentsofjannah
11-10-2006, 05:07 PM
:sl:

Please stop the hate and get on once and for all..its amazing how certain muslims will brand another muslim a disbeliever if he or she so much as expresses doubt in any hadeeth which is totally natural...the way i see it..the only 100% fool proof way to determine if this or that hadeeth (out of all the thousands upon thousands of hadeeths from both traditions (sunni+shia)) is actually from Prophet Muhammed's p.b.u.h own mouth or even from the same narrator..is to actually go back in time..and we all know thats impossible..so i take the message of any hadeeth that coressponds with the Qur'an and reject all the doubtful ones i recognise its historical and inspirational worth but it breaks my heart and greatly saddens me to see muslims so hung up on hadeeths and know extremely little about the Qur'an..

..to answer the brothers original question why do people reject hadeeths..? its because they have come across hadeeths that they couldnt believe or couldnt digest..some will even point out how some hadeeths clash with verses of the Qur'an.

I hope i havent offended anyone.i was merely stating my own viewpoint...you all take care

:w:
Reply

Rou
11-10-2006, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Let it be known that I love Muslims for the sake of Allah,

I have been reluctant to post here, since I, 1. Feel these type of topic requires a certain amount of knowledge, 2. That it seems to be like a tanble tennis game going endlessly back and forth.





Rather, I feel that you are mistaken, that analogy is flawed, it would only work if the Messenger was only sent to deliver and then leave.

Rather, an analogy of better quality is that:

A messenger carries a message, and this message is a guidance for mankind, then this messenger while delivering this message, also explains it's ruling and implimentations.

So instead, we see that, the Qu'ran is but part of the Message of Islam, the Messenger delivered it, and also explained it. So we are obeying Allah is obeying Allah's word, the Qu'ran, and then obeying the Messenger is obeying the Explanation and Implimentations and Rulings given.

The Proof is found in various verses:

With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

16:44

And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

16:64


The rest of your post is thus the same, quoting verses which obligate a Muslim to follow Allah and Allah's messenger, so you claim that Allah and His Messenger are as if 'one entity'.

I agree to an extent that obeying the Messenger is Obeying Allah, why, because, of Allah's statements of it being so. But it is not true that it means that it is then refering to obeying the messenger just means obey the Qu'ran.

Rather, we are told to obey others other than Allah and His messenger, does this make them 'one entity'?

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

4:59

So by that reasoning, because we are told to obey those in Authority they are one in entity? Rather, we known the Prophet did not speak of his own desire, Surah An Najm 1-5, we know that if he lied about Allah he would have been siezed, so his speech outside the Qu'ran, his explanation of the Qu'ran is revelation. Revelation from who? Allah, thus obeying that revelation outside the Qu'ran is obeying Allah.

To proceed, Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah Brother Rou, :)



Maybe not in those very words, but it is a clear matter.



There is no problem that I can see in that, that is why Mustala Hadeeth is there, and the volumes and volumes of different people and who they narrated from and so forth is there, so that one is careful, when classifying hadeeth.



Rather, you are speaking about the preservation, you said "he quran is the word of allah where as the hadith is the word of men who say they heard our prophet stating these things" The Qu'ran is the word or Allah, Hadeeth is the Word of Muhammad, or actions or tacid approvals, and both of them are relayed and preserved through Men.

The Qu'ran was memorised and compiled, Hadeeth memories and compiled.

If a hadeeth is authentic then it is obligatory that a Muslim follows it, just as the Qu'ran is known to have come down clear, that hadeeth classified authentic is now known to have come down clear, and because Muhammad did not lie about Allah then it is an obligation to follow it.



Rather your mistaken, allow me to put an example:

If I send you a letter with a messenger, then I say in the letter, 'this messenger will explain to you my message clearly, and I will know if he lies about me, and he will instanly die, so follow my message it is enough for you'

Now, would you not follow the explanation given by the messenger? Although I have stated that the message is enough, I have also stated that the message will be explained, also through my stating that if the messenger says anything about me that is not true he will die, you should know that you should follow everything the messenger says, unless he lied and you'd know because he would be siezed by me.

So similarly if the Prophet is explaining the message of Islaam and explains the Halal and Haram, and that Gold is Haram, this is not a contradiction (unless you can show that the Qu'ran says Gold is not haram) rather the topic was left out of the Qu'ran, and then explained under the title of Halal and Haram by the Prophet, no contradiction.

I remind you all that I love you all for the sake of Allah and hope that Allah has mercy on us and imparts knowledge of His religion in our hearts. That He forgives me for any wrong I've said.

Assalam Aleykum Wa Rhametulah, Brother Eesa.
indeed all i am stating is that we can go over and over the hadith if needed but the fact is our prophet pbuh said things that we follow today and that is good as he stated follow my actions and we do but as i stated he explained not to write down anything expect the quran from memory...

the hadiths were not allocated by our prophet pbuh in any way or matter the hadiths are the works of men 30 years after our prophet passed on pbuh...

there is no way of telling which hadith is authentic and which is not we have those that are the most trusted but no real way of telling which are 100% true...

as i stated we may follow the hadith but tread carefully and take them not to the clairty as such of the quran for that is not the case it is impossible to be as clear as the quran...

and again for those who have read the quran you will feel anyhow which hadiths fit in to the big message of the quran and which seem to side line it....

overall as long as there is no harm from the hadith then why not follow it but let us not call those who do not follow it kafar for it is stated no where that the disregard of hadith will cause you to be kafar...

force is not the way of islam and neither is ignorance so be good and be wise...
Reply

Umar001
11-10-2006, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
:sl:

Please stop the hate and get on once and for all..its amazing how certain muslims will brand another muslim a disbeliever if he or she so much as expresses doubt in any hadeeth which is totally natural...the way i see it..the only 100% fool proof way to determine if this or that hadeeth (out of all the thousands upon thousands of hadeeths from both traditions (sunni+shia)) is actually from Prophet Muhammed's p.b.u.h own mouth or even from the same narrator..is to actually go back in time..and we all know thats impossible..so i take the message of any hadeeth that coressponds with the Qur'an and reject all the doubtful ones i recognise its historical and inspirational worth but it breaks my heart and greatly saddens me to see muslims so hung up on hadeeths and know extremely little about the Qur'an..

..to answer the brothers original question why do people reject hadeeths..? its because they have come across hadeeths that they couldnt believe or couldnt digest..some will even point out how some hadeeths clash with verses of the Qur'an.

I hope i havent offended anyone.i was merely stating my own viewpoint...you all take care

:w:
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Hope all is well sister :) and thank you for you kind words,

I will ask you, do you know the sciences of classification of Hadeeth?

and also, how do you know the Qu'ran has been preserved?

And do you not think that some hadeeth need to be explained? like some ayat that seem contradictiory to someone with small knowledge?
Reply

Rou
11-10-2006, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Hope all is well sister :) and thank you for you kind words,

I will ask you, do you know the sciences of classification of Hadeeth?

and also, how do you know the Qu'ran has been preserved?

And do you not think that some hadeeth need to be explained? like some ayat that seem contradictiory to someone with small knowledge?
I know this question was not aimed at me and i mean no disrespect at answering it to a certainextenct....

the quran when read does not need explaining to those with knowledge yet indeed sometimes to a person with small knowledge you are right..

however the hadith will be seen as contradictory for those with knowledge and those with small knowledge...

any verse can be explained from the quran...however not every hadith can be explainbed with such clarity...nor does every hadith go along with what is written in the quran...

as stated some hadith indeed are true but there are alot that are either misinterpreted or untrue...it is better to be careful with the words of men...

i refer not to the words souly of our prophet pbuh but those of third parties who say they heard such things we are human after all...
Reply

Umar001
11-10-2006, 07:50 PM
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah :)

I hope all is well and nice to se your reply,

Originally Posted by Rou
he explained not to write down anything expect the quran from memory...
I have the feeling you are talking about:

It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that. (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)
Rather please read:

Those who use this hadeeth and argue that no ahadeeth were written are ignorant of the historical temporary prohibition of this statement. The temporary prohibition was meant as a precautionary step to ensure the correctness of the word of Allaah as distinguished from the words of the Prophet himself, as both came from the lips of the Prophet. This is one view and several other views are mentioned in the commentary on Saheeh Muslim by Imaam Al-Nawawi (May Allaah have mercy on him)


Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:

Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Alee (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth.

The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.


This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”
There are countless instructions from the Prophet instructing his companions to write down some ahadeeth.

Originally Posted by Rou
the hadiths were not allocated by our prophet pbuh in any way or matter the hadiths are the works of men 30 years after our prophet passed on pbuh...
Again, please read:

One of the Ansaar (The Helpers) asked the Prophet if there was another way to preserve ahadeeth as he sometimes forgets them. The Prophet replied:

Seek help from your right hand, and pointed out to a writing. (Tirmidhi)


Raafi ibn Khadij (May Allaah be pleased with him) said:

I said to the Prophet that we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied: You may write. There is no harm. (Tadreeb ar Raawi)


Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. (At-Tabari Jaami ul Bayaan)


Abu Raafi (may Allaah be pleased with him) sought permission from the Prophet to write ahadeeth and the Prophet granted him that permission (Tirmidhi)


Salma (student of Ibn Abbaas) says:

I saw some small wooden boards with Abdullaah Ibn Abbaas. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophet which he acquired from Abu Raafi’. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)


Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him:

Preserve Knowledge


Abdullaah then asked,

how should it be preserved?


The Prophet replied,

by writing it.
(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)


In another report, he says,

I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’


The Prophet replied,

If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)


He also says:

I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)


After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said:

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

Originally Posted by Rou
there is no way of telling which hadith is authentic and which is not we have those that are the most trusted but no real way of telling which are 100% true...
Originally Posted by Rou
I know this question was not aimed at me and i mean no disrespect at answering it to a certainextenct....
No worries Brother :)

Originally Posted by Rou
the quran when read does not need explaining to those with knowledge yet indeed sometimes to a person with small knowledge you are right..

however the hadith will be seen as contradictory for those with knowledge and those with small knowledge...
I will state two things:

1. With regards to the statement that the hadeeth are a bigger field, so thus more knowledge is needed, so let's say something appears in the quran to be contradictory then a smaller amount of knowledge would be needed to understand it if this happended in the field of hadeeth, because the field of hadeeth is wider.

2. If a hadeeth contradicts something stronger than it, i.e. Qu'ran or Sahih Ahadeeth, then by fault this hadeeth is not Sahih or Hasan.

It might take people with more knowledge to classify Ahadeeth but that is not a bad thing, it means careful analysis.

Originally Posted by Rou
any verse can be explained from the quran...however not every hadith can be explainbed with such clarity...nor does every hadith go along with what is written in the quran...
Again, there are different types of verses in the Qu'ran, some easy to explain some hard, why is it that divient sects are able to fool people? Because they twist the meaning, does this mean the Qu'ran should not be used? No, rather we should use it with the correct understanding.

Similarly with Hadeeth, there are some which are easy to understand, 'Actions are by Intentions' dont you find that easy? And others that the meaning need more research.

Originally Posted by Rou
as stated some hadith indeed are true but there are alot that are either misinterpreted or untrue...it is better to be careful with the words of men...

i refer not to the words souly of our prophet pbuh but those of third parties who say they heard such things we are human after all...
Words of men, meaning the chain of narration, the isnad? This is why I asked how do people know the Qu'ran is with us? Passed down generation to generation?

I agree we should be careful, and when one starts to read the extent that the Muhaddithin go to verify hadeeth then I have faith in them.

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=9

Alhamdulilah, thank you for your patience too. :)
Reply

Rou
11-10-2006, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah :)

I hope all is well and nice to se your reply,



I have the feeling you are talking about:



Rather please read:






Again, please read:








No worries Brother :)



I will state two things:

1. With regards to the statement that the hadeeth are a bigger field, so thus more knowledge is needed, so let's say something appears in the quran to be contradictory then a smaller amount of knowledge would be needed to understand it if this happended in the field of hadeeth, because the field of hadeeth is wider.

2. If a hadeeth contradicts something stronger than it, i.e. Qu'ran or Sahih Ahadeeth, then by fault this hadeeth is not Sahih or Hasan.

It might take people with more knowledge to classify Ahadeeth but that is not a bad thing, it means careful analysis.



Again, there are different types of verses in the Qu'ran, some easy to explain some hard, why is it that divient sects are able to fool people? Because they twist the meaning, does this mean the Qu'ran should not be used? No, rather we should use it with the correct understanding.

Similarly with Hadeeth, there are some which are easy to understand, 'Actions are by Intentions' dont you find that easy? And others that the meaning need more research.



Words of men, meaning the chain of narration, the isnad? This is why I asked how do people know the Qu'ran is with us? Passed down generation to generation?

I agree we should be careful, and when one starts to read the extent that the Muhaddithin go to verify hadeeth then I have faith in them.

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=9

Alhamdulilah, thank you for your patience too. :)
:sl:

Thank you for your prudent reply brother i agree as stated that some hadith indeed are valubale to mankind but many contradict eachother therefore we can guarntee there are mistakes and lies somewhere so that is where the warning lies to be careful...

as you stated -

"This is most likely to be the case."

there is a doubt where as the quran is pure we know that it has been passed by generation to generation without change beacuse 1 there are no contradictions within it nor till this day has anyone been able to challenge it..the hadith has mistakes and has contradictions we must be careful as not to take this as allahs word as it has not been gaurded nor recorded with the purity of the quran...

but i understand your words and pray clarity for our people may he guide us to the goal he has written for us all...

:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 01:14 PM
Ameen to your dua bro Rou.

Realise that the hadith that 'contradict' the Qur'an only seem that way to us because we don't have proper knowledge of the Qur'an. We can easily say that we do, but if these authentic ahadith did contradict the Qur'an - why then would the scholars who were more knowledgable of the Qur'an compared to us accept these ahadith?


Anyone can claim that these hadith are contradictory, but we won't know this unless we have that knowledge. So if we don't have that knowledge, isn't it much better that we actually go to the works of these scholars, or to actual scholars themselves to ask them about our misunderstandings? Instead of simply rejecting them?


Just keep that in mind insha'Allaah. And we have to realise that if we're so knowledgable of the Qur'an, we're not - because those that speak the Qur'an as their first language (i.e. arabic) accept these ahadith, and the group that doesn't accept these ahadith are those that don't speak the Quranic language as their first tongue anyway.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Ameen to your dua bro Rou.


Realise that the hadith that 'contradict' the Qur'an only seem that way to us because we don't have proper knowledge of the Qur'an. We can easily say that we do, but if these authentic ahadith did contradict the Qur'an - why then would the scholars who were more knowledgable of the Qur'an compared to us accept these ahadith?

Anyone can claim that these hadith are contradictory, but we won't know this unless we have that knowledge. So if we don't have that knowledge, isn't it much better that we actually go to the works of these scholars, or to actual scholars themselves to ask them about our misunderstandings? Instead of simply rejecting them?

Just keep that in mind insha'Allaah. And we have to realise that if we're so knowledgable of the Qur'an, we're not - because those that speak the Qur'an as their first language (i.e. arabic) accept these ahadith, and the group that doesn't accept these ahadith are those that don't speak the Quranic language as their first tongue anyway.


Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.

:sl:

The understanding of the quran is based on the understanding of each reader i beleive each should read it for themselves instead of going by hearsay and what they have heard otherwise yes indeed not challenge hadith or quran verses...

what i talk of is not hearsay it is what i have read and come to understand..

indeed there are many scholars who accept some hadiths but not all and as i stated i agree that some hadith should be looked into but what i also state is that they are not equal to teh wordds of allah therefore we should be careful with hadith as to someone who feels the full message will see which hadith goes along with the qurans message and which does not...

it is clear that certain hadith are not correct since all muslims do not accept all hadith yet every muslim knows the quran is pure from allah...

so be careful of how we intrepret hadith and how we follow it...to make sure we do not do any harm to islam and there are many already misinterpret hadith in particular and do wrong...

that does not help islam in any way...

i ask not to reject hadith no...i ask to be careful not to forget the bigger message of the quran...

:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 07:23 PM
This is why we turn to the knowledgable scholars of the ummah :) because if we all interpreted the Qur'an in our own way, then we will all have our own interpretations of the Qur'an and therefore one person may feel that we only need to cover a certain area of the body, or we may all have our own interpretation on how to perform salaah, or how to pay the zakaah, how to perform hajj etc.


This is why we follow the Qur'an according to the understanding of the sahabah (companions) of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) You may think its hearsay, but if you think its so hard to be sure that one thing is authentic, then how come some of us accept non muslim history? Aren't those from 'unreliable' sources too?


We follow the interpretation of the Qur'an according to the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) because they experienced it within their lifetime. They heard the interpretation of the Qur'an from the lips of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) What other way can the sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) be preserved? Wasn't the Qur'an preserved due to these companions?

How come we don't trust them if its the same people who actually writ down the Qur'an for us? We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) was illiterate, so obviously the companions had to write it down, so why do we find it hard to trust that they did remember the sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)?


We learn from the knowledgable scholars, who have studied the lives of the people who narrate the ahadith. If we can believe that the FBI has info. about us stored up, why can't we believe that the muslims who were the superpower at that time (in all fields) can't have a system like that?



Just think deeply about this insha'Allaah. :)



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
Reply

Umar001
11-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Assalamu Aleykum brother,

I would just like to first say, I think there is a difference within this conversation as to the meaning of the word Hadeeth:

When I say hadeeth, I mean with regards to the statements which have been studied and scrutanised and deemed authentic.

I think when you say hadeeth, you mean any statement attributed to the Prophet, peace be upon him, which may or may not be authentic.

I agree, with that regard that people should not accept every 'hadeeth' but only the ones that have survived the test and scrutenisation.

Originally Posted by Rou
:sl:

Thank you for your prudent reply brother i agree as stated that some hadith indeed are valubale to mankind but many contradict eachother therefore we can guarntee there are mistakes and lies somewhere so that is where the warning lies to be careful...
I agree that there are unathentic hadeeth which do contradict others and those hadeeth are to be rejected.

Originally Posted by Rou
as you stated -

"This is most likely to be the case."
Remind me where I said this brother sorrry, the son of Adam forgets, may Allah forigve him. Ameen

Originally Posted by Rou
there is a doubt where as the quran is pure we know that it has been passed by generation to generation without change beacuse 1 there are no contradictions within it nor till this day has anyone been able to challenge it..the hadith has mistakes and has contradictions we must be careful as not to take this as allahs word as it has not been gaurded nor recorded with the purity of the quran...
I disagree with the part i put in bold, it is only logical sense that if you believe in that Muhammad has been sent to explain the Qu'ran that Muhammad's explanation is available for those to whom the Qu'ran was sent to.

Originally Posted by Rou
:sl:

The understanding of the quran is based on the understanding of each reader..
I don't know if I have misunderstood you, but I disagree totally with this, if every person is left to understand the Qu'ran in their own way, it would equate to wrong understanding. If you wanna know why I think that ask and I will explain. Insha'Allah.

Originally Posted by Rou
indeed there are many scholars who accept some hadiths but not all and as i stated i agree that some hadith should be looked into but what i also state is that they are not equal to teh wordds of allah therefore we should be careful with hadith as to someone who feels the full message will see which hadith goes along with the qurans message and which does not...
I agree some hadeeths are to be accepted and some rejected depending on their authenticity.

With regards to the underlined part, in what way are the word of the Prophet, peace be upon him, not of the same weight as the words of Allah?

With regards to the bold part, and who can say which person 'feels the full message'? You see not one person is able to explain the whole of Islaam, not after the prophet peace be upon him.

Originally Posted by Rou
it is clear that certain hadith are not correct since all muslims do not accept all hadith yet every muslim knows the quran is pure from allah...
Two points,

Every hadeeth proven to be authentic is or should be accepted by all Muslims and Muslims scholers will accept those hadeeth.

Not every Muslim believes that the Qu'ran is, at this time pure and in its totality, it has reached me that some say the following please check the quotes:

"Abu Baseer reported that he said to Imam Ja'far, "O Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq) What is Mus-haf Fatimah?" He replied "It is a Qur'an containing three times what is found in your copy of the Qur'an; yet by Allah, it does not contain even a single letter from your Qur'an. (Al-Kafi vol.1 p.457)
No one possess complete knowledge of Holy Qur'an except Imams. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 228)
Assalamu ALeykum Dear Brother,

Al Habeshi
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
This is why we turn to the knowledgable scholars of the ummah :) because if we all interpreted the Qur'an in our own way, then we will all have our own interpretations of the Qur'an and therefore one person may feel that we only need to cover a certain area of the body, or we may all have our own interpretation on how to perform salaah, or how to pay the zakaah, how to perform hajj etc.


This is why we follow the Qur'an according to the understanding of the sahabah (companions) of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) You may think its hearsay, but if you think its so hard to be sure that one thing is authentic, then how come some of us accept non muslim history? Aren't those from 'unreliable' sources too?


We follow the interpretation of the Qur'an according to the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) because they experienced it within their lifetime. They heard the interpretation of the Qur'an from the lips of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) What other way can the sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) be preserved? Wasn't the Qur'an preserved due to these companions?

How come we don't trust them if its the same people who actually writ down the Qur'an for us? We know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) was illiterate, so obviously the companions had to write it down, so why do we find it hard to trust that they did remember the sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)?


We learn from the knowledgable scholars, who have studied the lives of the people who narrate the ahadith. If we can believe that the FBI has info. about us stored up, why can't we believe that the muslims who were the superpower at that time (in all fields) can't have a system like that?



Just think deeply about this insha'Allaah. :)



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
:sl:

no indeed brother that is exactly the case that scholars state that certain hadit are fact yet many are incertain as there is no way of telling which are fact and which are misinterpretated and we know from scholars out of so many hadith we can trust only certain ones and thats my point not that we should not follow hadith but we should be careful when doing so...

this thread started with saying that those who dont beleive the hadith are not muslim i disagree with that i say those who reject hadith fully yet still follow the quran are but trying to guard islam by making sure they dont follow hadith due to fear of getting it wrong as we know there are hadith that are not followed by even scholars as they state there are mainly six that are to be trusted but what of the others? there are many factors but teh point is if you follow the quran that was said as allahs final and full message you are doing your best to follow allahs path as long as you meet the requirement of the qurans full message..

there are many who follow the hadith yet break down the fundamental laws within the quran!?

if we look at terrorists (so called anyhow) but those who harmed innocents in other lands if they say in the hadith that is justfied by some angle? that is still against the full message of the quran and that is not in my view that is fact in teh quran that by harming innocents makes no sense ? they are not attacking us yet they were harmed?

lets put it this way...follow as long as it breaks not the full message of the qran then indeed that would end up as contradiction...

:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Rou
:sl:

no indeed brother that is exactly the case that scholars state that certain hadit are fact yet many are incertain as there is no way of telling which are fact and which are misinterpretated and we know from scholars out of so many hadith we can trust only certain ones and thats my point not that we should not follow hadith but we should be careful when doing so...

this thread started with saying that those who dont beleive the hadith are not muslim i disagree with that i say those who reject hadith fully yet still follow the quran are but trying to guard islam by making sure they dont follow hadith due to fear of getting it wrong as we know there are hadith that are not followed by even scholars as they state there are mainly six that are to be trusted but what of the others? there are many factors but teh point is if you follow the quran that was said as allahs final and full message you are doing your best to follow allahs path as long as you meet the requirement of the qurans full message..

there are many who follow the hadith yet break down the fundamental laws within the quran!?

if we look at terrorists (so called anyhow) but those who harmed innocents in other lands if they say in the hadith that is justfied by some angle? that is still against the full message of the quran and that is not in my view that is fact in teh quran that by harming innocents makes no sense ? they are not attacking us yet they were harmed?

lets put it this way...follow as long as it breaks not the full message of the qran then indeed that would end up as contradiction...

:w:


There aren't only 6 collections of hadith. I think you're referring to the six main collectors of hadith, the collections; Sahih al Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Al-Nisa'i, Ibn Majah. But there are others such as Bayhaqi, Musnad Ahmad etc.


However, the titles don't really matter because they are just the collections of hadith which the person compiled, with the chain of narration. After this the scholars who study the lives of the people in the chain try to find out the character of the person - to see the strength of his/her memory, if he/she was known for lying etc. Even the biographies of the people have been recorded in depth, so the scholar can figure out if this chain of narrators is strong (i.e. if all the people are all trustworthy or not.)




If the chain is trustworthy, then the scholar can class the hadith as hasan (good) or even saheeh (authentic.) This is when the classification of the hadith comes up. If the chain never had trustworthy narrators in, it may be da'eef (weak) and therefore not be accepted as a source of islamic law. Do you understand how its common sense? The sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) had to be passed on this way, otherwise - what else could we expect? Did we expect an angel to bring a book with all the sayings of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)? If someone was to say that, then they have to realise that the Qur'an wasn't even written down this way.



The scholars use evidences from the Qur'an and Authentic ahadith to prove what they say. This is why we have scholars in different fields, some studying Qur'an (muffasireen), some studying hadith (muhaditheen), some who extract rulings out of them (scholars of fiqh [understanding]) etc. They can come together and discuss while representing their own field, and come together with a ruling.


If a scholar went against the Qur'an, the other true, sincere scholars would be the first people to warn him/her of their mistake. The scholars who understand the Qur'an don't contradict it because why would the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) be contradicting the Qur'an? The scholars are the inheritors of the prophets, because prophets bring knowledge. Therefore the scholars wouldn't accept a hadith which went against the law of Allaah.




Allaah Almighty know's best.




Peace.
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Assalamu Aleykum brother,

I would just like to first say, I think there is a difference within this conversation as to the meaning of the word Hadeeth:

When I say hadeeth, I mean with regards to the statements which have been studied and scrutanised and deemed authentic.

I think when you say hadeeth, you mean any statement attributed to the Prophet, peace be upon him, which may or may not be authentic.

I agree, with that regard that people should not accept every 'hadeeth' but only the ones that have survived the test and scrutenisation.



I agree that there are unathentic hadeeth which do contradict others and those hadeeth are to be rejected.



Remind me where I said this brother sorrry, the son of Adam forgets, may Allah forigve him. Ameen



I disagree with the part i put in bold, it is only logical sense that if you believe in that Muhammad has been sent to explain the Qu'ran that Muhammad's explanation is available for those to whom the Qu'ran was sent to.



I don't know if I have misunderstood you, but I disagree totally with this, if every person is left to understand the Qu'ran in their own way, it would equate to wrong understanding. If you wanna know why I think that ask and I will explain. Insha'Allah.



I agree some hadeeths are to be accepted and some rejected depending on their authenticity.

With regards to the underlined part, in what way are the word of the Prophet, peace be upon him, not of the same weight as the words of Allah?

With regards to the bold part, and who can say which person 'feels the full message'? You see not one person is able to explain the whole of Islaam, not after the prophet peace be upon him.



Two points,

Every hadeeth proven to be authentic is or should be accepted by all Muslims and Muslims scholers will accept those hadeeth.

Not every Muslim believes that the Qu'ran is, at this time pure and in its totality, it has reached me that some say the following please check the quotes:





Assalamu ALeykum Dear Brother,

Al Habeshi
:sl: Brother

My apologies it was within something you had stated from another source not directly from yourself... -

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

There are many hadith as i stated that dont make sense if they were from allah compared to what was stated within the quran...

for one they dont have the same type of clarity as the quran...

when reading the quran many state they have a certain feeling that does not coincide with the hadiths words..no indeed this may well be there own mistake and they are as stated no scholar yet for example -

not wearing gold... where would be the logic of not mentioning such a thing even once within the varity of verses within the quran?

also stated within the hadith it is stated to use henna in our hair and beards to look diffrent from the jews..

yet there is no mention of this within the quran...

do not get me wrong these all can be explained if i tried...but in the quran there are details of everything within the world yet why would these things be left out...

the hadith talk of things such as the prophet pbuh asking for a certain group who murdered a farmer , for that group to have there arms cut off and there eyes gouged out..we know that a thiefs punishment is to have there hands cut off yet if they repent that is not the case...and it is mentioned no where to gouge out the eyes of any man nor to torture them with a slow death?




Book 016, Number 4131:
Anas reported: Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.


There is no harm in following hadiths until they cause us to stray from the path of allah...no man should be allowed to reject mercy and harm another for what he beleives has been ordained in a hadeeth over what has been written in the quran for there is no comparison...
I state not this to be a lie or the hadiths to be a lie i state that there are things that seem not to link up with the teachings of the quran and the quran is what allah has given..i suggest for us to be careful not to follow words of men over the words of allah and that is all....




:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Thats why we reject what goes against the Qur'an and its also why we refer back to the Qur'an, simple as that bro. Don't know why its difficult for some u...sheesh. A note to some of u, don't bother going through that Hadiths until u have bothered to understand the Qur'an, you will only confuse urself more. Read the Qur'an, understand it, then bother trying to figure out the Hadiths. Even if u do go to the Hadiths, if there is something u dont understand, just ASK a scholar...wow...
They study for years until they have understood, and still are not perfect, who are you to say what is wrong or right when u urselves havent gotten to that point....
I'm sorry but im getting kinda annoyed. If u reject the Hadiths, dont bother praying, how else would u know how and how many to pray, what supplicatons to make...
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 11:16 PM
I love the way you got an open mind masha'Allaah. :)


Originally Posted by Rou



Book 016, Number 4131:
Anas reported: Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.
There is no harm in following hadiths until they cause us to stray from the path of allah...no man should be allowed to reject mercy and harm another for what he beleives has been ordained in a hadeeth over what has been written in the quran for there is no comparison...
I state not this to be a lie or the hadiths to be a lie i state that there are things that seem not to link up with the teachings of the quran and the quran is what allah has given..i suggest for us to be careful not to follow words of men over the words of allah and that is all....




:w:



That's already been discussed before:


As for branding their eyes, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) branded the eyes of the people of `Ukl or `Uraina with iron because they killed the herder and branded his eyes with iron. Imam Ibn Hajar stated the differences of opinions among scholars and he said, “The killing that took place (that is, in reference to the above hadith) was in retaliation and Allah Almighty says,

‘And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you’ (Al-Baqarah: 194).”



It should be made clear that those people who came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) were Muslims and they were sick. The Prophet advised them to go to the herd of camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). When they became healthy, they killed the herder of the Prophet and drove away all the camels that were allocated for sadaqah (charity). When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) came to know about this, he applied the punishment for Hirabah on them. Hiraba means killing people, robbing their money or raping women by an armed group of people. The punishment for Hirabah is mentioned in the Qur’an. Allah says:

“The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom” (Al-Ma’idah: 33).


That's why the punishment may have been so severe, and Allaah Almighty knows best.



http://www.islamicboard.com/364582-post22.html





The other points you make are hard to understand because the main issue that alot of people in this thread continously repeat is that salaah isn't fully explained within the Qur'an either. Obviously its explained in the Authentic sunnah, so if salaah is explained in the authentic sunnah - then obviously the other matters that are explained in the authentic sunnah are equally important.


Hope you understand insha'Allaah. :):)
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Thats why we reject what goes against the Qur'an and its also why we refer back to the Qur'an, simple as that bro. Don't know why its difficult for some u...sheesh. A note to some of u, don't bother going through that Hadiths until u have bothered to understand the Qur'an, you will only confuse urself more. Read the Qur'an, understand it, then bother trying to figure out the Hadiths. Even if u do go to the Hadiths, if there is something u dont understand, just ASK a scholar...wow...
They study for years until they have understood, and still are not perfect, who are you to say what is wrong or right when u urselves havent gotten to that point....
I'm sorry but im getting kinda annoyed. If u reject the Hadiths, dont bother praying, how else would u know how and how many to pray, what supplicatons to make...
? your getting annoyed? why....

i have not stated that i reject hadith yet you have got annoyed?

i have not called all hadith and the sallat a lie? yet your getting annoyed?

this is what i am reffering to that if someone does not follow hadith or does not follow all hadith should we act like this?????

no....

they follow the quran and sister...the quran has many ayats on the form of prayer...and if one man rejects that which he see's as words of men that can and are able to be mixed,forgotten and misinterprted then they are doing it to but preserve there religon not to harm it...

as i stated there is no harm in following that which we know but when that which is in the hadith crosses that which is in the quran then the qiran should be that which is followed...

indeed we can ask a scholar but in the end they are human as us all they can do is explain and if that helps then good if not then fair enough we should not condemn those who follow the quran only...where will that get us??

your anger is an example of what splits muslims today and that is hat we must forget i have heard of men beating others if they have asked for water during the fasting months and equal so if refuse to grow there beards..

this is not islam and the quicker we awaken from this type of foolishness the better off the ummah will be...

where is it stated that if one does not follow islam we should beat them? where is it stated that if one does not follow the hadith we beat them? where is its stated to show anger if one questions the hadith???

i showed an example of the gouging of eyes if that raises doubts in ones mind then be not angered instead look into the hadith more carefully...

Sister Tayabba your anger in this matter is inappropriate we are all muslim and we are but disscussing something that involves all of us...

:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-11-2006, 11:31 PM
lol brother, bits were to u and some to others who think that way. sorry i wasnt throwing it all at u...:hiding: Please dont judge me when u dont know me. I've always heard people talk this way and been quiet. Some people need to understand. Astaghfirullah if im one of those people who would divide the Ummah, i would never. Ive never called myself or anyone a sufi, salafi, shia sunni etc, just Muslim..May Allah have mercy on me if i ever tried too...

P.S i dont know why u brought in some of what u posted. i only read some of ur post and answered the following..
I also did not call anyone a liar or anything.
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I love the way you got an open mind masha'Allaah. :)







That's already been discussed before:



As for branding their eyes, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) branded the eyes of the people of `Ukl or `Uraina with iron because they killed the herder and branded his eyes with iron. Imam Ibn Hajar stated the differences of opinions among scholars and he said, “The killing that took place (that is, in reference to the above hadith) was in retaliation and Allah Almighty says,


‘And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you’ (Al-Baqarah: 194).”




It should be made clear that those people who came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) were Muslims and they were sick. The Prophet advised them to go to the herd of camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). When they became healthy, they killed the herder of the Prophet and drove away all the camels that were allocated for sadaqah (charity). When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) came to know about this, he applied the punishment for Hirabah on them. Hiraba means killing people, robbing their money or raping women by an armed group of people. The punishment for Hirabah is mentioned in the Qur’an. Allah says:


“The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom” (Al-Ma’idah: 33).



That's why the punishment may have been so severe, and Allaah Almighty knows best.








The other points you make are hard to understand because the main issue that alot of people in this thread continously repeat is that salaah isn't fully explained within the Qur'an either. Obviously its explained in the Authentic sunnah, so if salaah is explained in the authentic sunnah - then obviously the other matters that are explained in the authentic sunnah are equally important.


Hope you understand insha'Allaah. :):)
Indeed brother as i stated that the hadith can be explained and i had seen it in this way aswell i am merely trying to show how some things come across as strange compared to the quran and that we must becareful..seems people are hearing reject instead of be wary....

anyhow indeed there are many ways to explain certain hadith but the fact that they are third party is something overall to be wary of and i will continue to state this and i urge people that if muslims meet you and state they do not beleive in the hadith then do not reject them explain to them and if they dont listen then dont become angerd for it you will only drive your brothers/sisters further...if you have the power to explain then do so if not then do not...

we all have our paths and we will follow them as allah wills...

Fi_Sabilillah thank you for your patient replies this is how muslims should discuss such matters and in the end if a common ground cannot be found they must remember that in the end you are dealing with a follower of allah who plans not to destroy islam but to defend it time and wisdom will prevail in the end...

:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-11-2006, 11:43 PM
seems people are hearing reject instead of be wary....
watch it bro, maybe u should read my post carefully...
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
lol brother, bits were to u and some to others who think that way. sorry i wasnt throwing it all at u...:hiding: Please dont judge me when u dont know me. I've always heard people talk this way and been quiet. Some people need to understand. Astaghfirullah if im one of those people who would divide the Ummah, i would never. Ive never called myself or anyone a sufi, salafi, shia sunni etc, just Muslim..May Allah have mercy on me if i ever tried too...

P.S i dont know why u brought in some of what u posted, i only read some of ur post and answered the following..
I also did not call anyone a liar or anything.
sorry sister i meant no insult but as stated it seemed you were aiming it at me well thats how i viewed it, however i meant no insult apollogies if it seemed that way.

i know you did not directly call anyone a liar but if one rejects the hadith and your not happy with that and tell them "then you should stop praying"

its a hurtful comment..as i did not state i reject the hadith (therefore calling it a lie) nor did i state that people should stop praying i merely stated fact that the hadiths are words of men third parties so already they are not as authentic as the quran and we should be wary when going through them...

there is however no need to be annoyed as that in turn is what divides us that is what my meaning was..

we must question anything in our minds to understand it even a verse from the quran without questioning its meaning how will we understand it?

to follow without understanding is blind faith and not something that a muslim should do..(not aimed at you as i know you have not mentioned this its just a varied comment to all):)

peace be with you...:)
Reply

- Qatada -
11-11-2006, 11:49 PM
Rou, trust me its been kool chatin with you.. just remember that if you don't know anything, ask those who have knowledge. :)

If you never understand a hadith, and it has been classed authentic - theres probably something wrong with our own understanding, therefore the one's who have studied islaam in detail will be able to give us evidences from Qur'an, and also give us a more broader outlook on that hadith to make us realise that it doesn't contradict the Qur'an insha'Allaah.


That's the better approach - instead of rejecting a hadith just because we don't understand it, ask those who have knowledge insha'Allaah & whenever we pray to Allaah, we should all pray to Allaah to guide us to the right path (ikhdi nas-siraat al mustaqeem.) sincerely. Then Allaah will guide us all to the truth insha'Allaah. :)




Peace.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-11-2006, 11:51 PM
Glad we have an agreement Rou, and i think like you so no worries...

Rou, trust me its been kool chatin with you.. just remember that if you don't know anything, ask those who have knowledge.

If you never understand a hadith, and it is authentic - theres probably something wrong with our own understanding, therefore the one's who have studied islaam in detail will be able to give us evidences from Qur'an, and also give us a more broader outlook on that hadith to make us realise that it doesn't contradict the Qur'an insha'Allaah.


That's the better approach - instead of rejecting a hadith just because we don't understand it, ask those who have knowledge insha'Allaah.
Just what i meant at the start of the post...and that was to you Rou..
Salaam
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 11:54 PM
Edit...it is but forgotten my sister...

forgive me if i spoke out of place..
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-11-2006, 11:57 PM
lol my bad...not havin a happy day...grandmother passed..kinda cranky...:hiding:
Reply

Rou
11-11-2006, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Rou, trust me its been kool chatin with you.. just remember that if you don't know anything, ask those who have knowledge. :)

If you never understand a hadith, and it has been classed authentic - theres probably something wrong with our own understanding, therefore the one's who have studied islaam in detail will be able to give us evidences from Qur'an, and also give us a more broader outlook on that hadith to make us realise that it doesn't contradict the Qur'an insha'Allaah.


That's the better approach - instead of rejecting a hadith just because we don't understand it, ask those who have knowledge insha'Allaah & whenever we pray to Allaah, we should all pray to Allaah to guide us to the right path (ikhdi nas-siraat al mustaqeem.) sincerely. Then Allaah will guide us all to the truth insha'Allaah. :)




Peace.
indeed brother knowledge is the key to life and wisdom our goal but as i stated its not so much the fact that i do not understand what is written no..its the fact that it is third party so to be wary is but only a warning not rejection..as stated i dont reject hadith i but am wary of what i follow...
Reply

Rou
11-12-2006, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
lol my bad...not havin a happy day...grandmother passed..kinda cranky...:hiding:
I have edited my post sister my apologies once more if i hurt your feelings at all...imsad

may allah give you strength in this time of loss...

we all get cranky now and then you should see me on monday mornings!

:rant: :okay:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 12:05 AM
Jazak Allah Khair :)
And now im off lol.
Reply

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