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Sabi
05-28-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Templar Knight
Why should I do research for Baphomet? Baphomet was an idol that the Knights Templar was accused of worshipping along with the worship of a head (rumor has it that it was either the head of John the Baptist found on one of there archealogical digs under Solomons tomb or the Temple monut. It was also said to be Jesus' death shroad when folded only shows the head). What does it have to do with this convo?
The allegations were not without some grain of truth. The Head is mentioned in Psalm 110 of our holy book the Zaboor and we believe that the shroud was originally in our possession. Meanwhile Baphomet is a misconstrueance of mahomet (not to be confused with Muhammad SAW) which is what Sabi`ah Hunafa` call anyone who reaches the Mehemodan state. Of course neither are woshipped and are certainly not idols in any way at all whatsoever. The original Tmeplars were punished by the Church for their walking on the path of the Sabi`ah Hunafa`, and so they lost their way.

:brother:
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north_malaysian
05-29-2006, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Sabi
The allegations were not without some grain of truth. The Head is mentioned in Psalm 110 of our holy book the Zaboor and we believe that the shroud was originally in our possession. Meanwhile Baphomet is a misconstrueance of mahomet (not to be confused with Muhammad SAW) which is what Sabi`ah Hunafa` call anyone who reaches the Mehemodan state. Of course neither are woshipped and are certainly not idols in any way at all whatsoever. The original Tmeplars were punished by the Church for their walking on the path of the Sabi`ah Hunafa`, and so they lost their way.

:brother:
Sabian are followers of John the Baptist isnt it?
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Sabi
05-29-2006, 09:35 AM
Salaam brother,

You are thinking of Mandaeans (who have in the past occasionally call themselves Sabi in order to afford some protection from the islamic states. NB they themselves do not like the term Sabi,) though in fact they are the original Nasaraeans (and hence need not have had the term Sabi applied to themselves).

:brother:
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HeiGou
05-29-2006, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by Sabi
You are thinking of Mandaeans (who have in the past occasionally call themselves Sabi in order to afford some protection from the islamic states. NB they themselves do not like the term Sabi,) though in fact they are the original Nasaraeans (and hence need not have had the term Sabi applied to themselves).
May I ask where you were born?

Well the last time I did this I got a penalty, but that involved a Sect. With a bit of luck, the Sabians pre-date Islam and so this will not be a problem,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians#Sabeans_of_Harran

Sabian is a term that has been more or less inaccurately used to describe at least three religious groups, namely the Sābi'ūna Ḥunafāˤ "Monotheistic Baptisers", the Sabeans of Harran (also known as the Sābi'ūna Mushrukūn "Polytheist Baptisers" and Harranians; see also Yazidi) and Mandaean Nasaræan Sabeans. They are not to be confused with the Sabaeans of Sheba whose etymology is completely unrelated being spelled with an initial Arabic letter "sin" instead of the initial letter "Sad" (though the issue was confused because at least one tribe of Sabaeans, the Ansar, are known to have adopted the Saabi`ah Hunafa` religion).

The term Sābi'ūn derives from the Syriac root S-b-' , referring to conversion through submersion; the Syriac (and Hebrew) nouns derived from this root refer to proselytes, both "Judaisers" - non-converts who followed certain basic rules of Judaism - and early Christian converts of non-Jewish origin and practice. These latter were called Theosebeians "God-Believers", Sebomenoi "Believers" or Phobeomenoi in Greek sources.
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north_malaysian
05-29-2006, 09:59 AM
Sabian are non-Muslims?
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HeiGou
05-29-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Sabian are non-Muslims?
I think they are listed as one of the People of the Book. But there aren't many of them left now.
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Sabi
05-29-2006, 10:35 AM
Salam North,
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Sabian are non-Muslims?
Please read through this thread to find your answers
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...hlight=small+m

Salaam HeiGou,

Usually I have difficulty with the validity of wikipedia, but at the risk of sounding hypocritical, this time at least it seems they are running roughly along the right tracks. However I do object to the term Judaizers, since the religion of Noah predated the religion Moses revealed for the childtren of israel (at the same time re-iterating the religion for the Sabi`ah Hunafa` or Hasidei Umot Ha Olam aka HaGarim in contemporary and torah Hebrew respectively).

I would prefer not to broadcast personal details like place of birth online, but perhaps when I know you better, I will share with you in a private message. Are you chinese? I have heard that the Hui in china and Tatars in Siberia are very close to us even though they have been greatly influenced by Sufism. However there is apparently Saudi Government campaign now to convert them to the officially sanctioned Saudi Wahabism (their number would be very useful for Saudi economy once the oil runs out within the next 45 years especially at Hajj). Personally I would be happier if they were educating them about the same orthodox islam that was around for 1300 years before Ibn Wahab.

:brother:
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HeiGou
05-29-2006, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Sabi
However I do object to the term Judaizers, since the religion of Noah predated the religion Moses revealed for the childtren of israel (at the same time re-iterating the religion for the Sabi`ah Hunafa` or Hasidei Umot Ha Olam aka HaGarim in contemporary and torah Hebrew respectively).
Really? On what basis do you object? What is your evidence that the religion of the Sabians predated that of the Jews?

I would prefer not to broadcast personal details like place of birth online,
How about a geographic region? The Middle East?
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Sabi
05-29-2006, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Really? On what basis do you object? What is your evidence that the religion of the Sabians predated that of the Jews?
:offended:
Why are you attacking me sir? Is my opinion worthless? But since you ask, the Jewish sage Maimonides confirmed that Abraham came from a family and city of Sabi`ah Mushrikoon, though of course Maimonides does not call Abraham and his followers Sabi`ah Hunafa`, though the Torah does call him a "Ger" and the Hagarim are from his community.
:sl:
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HeiGou
05-29-2006, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Sabi
Why are you attacking me sir? Is my opinion worthless?
I am not attacking you, I am curious. You have come here recently and said a lot of mildly interesting things, but I do not know if they are true or not. Whether your opinion is worthless or not depends very much on where you are coming from and what your background is. But you're not being very forth coming about that. This is the internet after all.

But since you ask, the Jewish sage Maimonides confirmed that Abraham came from a family and city of Sabi`ah Mushrikoon, though of course Maimonides does not call Abraham and his followers Sabi`ah Hunafa`, though the Torah does call him a "Ger" and the Hagarim are from his community.
Where did Maimonides confirm this? I would be interested to know where the Torah called Abraham a "Ger" as well.
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Sabi
05-29-2006, 11:36 AM
Then no offense taken friend. I am just a nobody with few if any credentials of any true value. All knowledge must be mined for and I do not believe in spoon-feeding. I have been mining for a long time, but if you would consider me faithfully passing on nothing but hearsay, at least you will always be pleasantly surprised inshallah. If there is any value in anything that I have written it should be apparent inshallah. Thank you for saying that some of the things that I have written are mildly interesting.:statisfie

Abraham describes himself as a Ger and Toshav in Genesis 23:4. Maimonides' comments on the origins of Abraham in The Guide for the Perplexed by Moses Maimonides on page 362 in the version by Docer Publication, Inc.

No more spoon feeding now.:giggling: (kidding)
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NahidSarvy
05-29-2006, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Sabi
Usually I have difficulty with the validity of wikipedia, but at the risk of sounding hypocritical, this time at least it seems they are running roughly along the right tracks. However I do object to the term Judaizers, since the religion of Noah predated the religion Moses revealed for the childtren of israel (at the same time re-iterating the religion for the Sabi`ah Hunafa` or Hasidei Umot Ha Olam aka HaGarim in contemporary and torah Hebrew respectively).
"Judaisers" is the term used in English for people of gentile background who did not convert to Judaism but followed rules for foreigners who resided in Jewish lands.

The Sabian sect you ascribe to would be a separate group from those 'Judaisers' who took their teachings from Judaism; they would be 'cousins', so to speak, following the same Noachide origins but THROUGH Judaism.

I am also a little unclear about the origins of your specific teachings. Can you share? I am also intrigued.
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Sabi
05-29-2006, 08:12 PM
Certainly sister, please read through the thread http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...hlight=small+m, and post any questions you like there, I will certainly do my best to answer inshallah.

Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
"Judaisers" is the term used in English for people of gentile background who did not convert to Judaism but followed rules for foreigners who resided in Jewish lands.
Ah, now that is interesting because what you described sounds a lot like my religion. By Judaizers I was imagining Christians who adopted Jewish trappings for their "Gentile" religions. For example many of the modern Messianic Jewish Christians are in fact nothing more than "Gentile" Christian Judaizers. while Those things that Moses (SAW) taught non Jews to follow are exactly what we follow, i.e. the religion of Noah (SAW).
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NahidSarvy
05-30-2006, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Sabi
For example many of the modern Messianic Jewish Christians are in fact nothing more than "Gentile" Christian Judaizers. while Those things that Moses (SAW) taught non Jews to follow are exactly what we follow, i.e. the religion of Noah (SAW).
Yeah, I've noticed that, for example, discussions of Têmanî Jewish practices of sujûd are mostly found on "Jews4Jesus"-style websites.

There are many versions of the Noachide Laws. Do you follow the Seven Rules or one of the more elaborate variations thereof? Are there other practices?
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Sabi
05-30-2006, 02:30 PM
:sl: sister Nahid,

Firstly I would like to say how impressed I am at your knowledge in this area already. I think you are the first non-sabi I have met who is so well informed about the sibghatullah religion. Interestingly neo-templars are re-introduced to knowledge of their Sabi origins by the term you used only at their 21st degree. The basic categories of observance we follow are as follow:

Don't make God or religion your excuse for wrong (this is true Blasphemey)
Don't kill
Don't steal
Shun idolatry
Shun sexual immorality
Eat Halal (killing any animal must be prayerful and serene, cruelty to animals is not to be tollerated)
Support The Din that organizes observance of the other 6.

Islam is a perfect Din in respect of the last issue, but then HaLakhah is also valid. However, When it comes to revelation from God vs Rabbinical opinion, then of course the rabbis have to take a back seat.

For example if out of necessity one eats something that is not Halal then one would be unclean and must make ghusl and must also wash one's clothes by evening to escape sin. this is what was revealed to the non-Jews through Moses (SAW) even though the Rabbis have different opinions.

If the Messianic Jewish Christian Gentiles are starting to learn Sujood then I think that is great, but it is a pity that they don't just come to true monotheism as satisfied non-jews and stop calling themselves Jews. If they did they would be virtually the same as Sabi`een. But not many people are interested in the historical truth these days.

It is a pleasure to discuss with you, I am glad to make your acquaintance.

Salaamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatahu.
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starfortress
05-30-2006, 02:41 PM
:sl:
Peace to all brother

"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve" - Quran 2:62

so this verese mention to which sabaens,just asking?
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Sabi
05-30-2006, 02:57 PM
:sl: Brother,

The you quoted is about Al-Sabi`een and surely must refer only to the Sabi`ah Hunafa` rather than the Sabi`ah Mushrikoon. But I am not a muslim scholar so my opinion is not useful. However, I can tell you that my opinion was shared by Ibn Al-Qayyim:
"There are two types of Sabians: the monotheistic Sabians (saabi’ah hunafa’) and polytheistic Sabians (saabi’ah mushrikoon). The monotheists are the ones who are saved and there were debates among them, and one group refuted the view of the other. These are the people of Ibraaheem as the Jews were the people of Moosa, and the monotheists among them were his followers. "

Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 1/92-98.

Sabi`een are also mentioned in Surah al-Hajj (22:17), and this is the collective title for all tybes of Sabi whether Haneef or Mushrik. Surah al-Maa’idah (5:69) mentions the Sabi`oon which are a special group among the Sabi`een who we refer to as "The keepers of the houses of Allah (SWT)".

BTW the spelling you used Sabaean refers to Sheba (mentioned in Surah 34) and not to the Sabi`een.

Thank you for expressing an interest concerning my religion. It is so nice to meet Muslims like you here. I am enjoying this forum very much and find all the Muslims here to be very good examples of muslumeen so far.

Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatahu
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starfortress
05-30-2006, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sabi
:sl: Brother,

The you quoted is about Al-Sabi`een and surely must refer only to the Sabi`ah Hunafa` rather than the Sabi`ah Mushrikoon. But I am not a muslim scholar so my opinion is not useful. However, I can tell you that my opinion was shared by Ibn Al-Qayyim:
"There are two types of Sabians: the monotheistic Sabians (saabi’ah hunafa’) and polytheistic Sabians (saabi’ah mushrikoon). The monotheists are the ones who are saved and there were debates among them, and one group refuted the view of the other. These are the people of Ibraaheem as the Jews were the people of Moosa, and the monotheists among them were his followers. "

Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 1/92-98.

Sabi`een are also mentioned in Surah al-Hajj (22:17), and this is the collective title for all tybes of Sabi whether Haneef or Mushrik. Surah al-Maa’idah (5:69) mentions the Sabi`oon which are a special group among the Sabi`een who we refer to as "The keepers of the houses of Allah (SWT)".

BTW the spelling you used Sabaean refers to Sheba (mentioned in Surah 34) and not to the Sabi`een.

Thank you for expressing an interest concerning my religion. It is so nice to meet Muslims like you here. I am enjoying this forum very much and find all the Muslims here to be very good examples of muslumeen so far.

Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatahu

:sl:

thanks for the explanation bro.
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north_malaysian
05-31-2006, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
"Judaisers" is the term used in English for people of gentile background who did not convert to Judaism but followed rules for foreigners who resided in Jewish lands.

The Sabian sect you ascribe to would be a separate group from those 'Judaisers' who took their teachings from Judaism; they would be 'cousins', so to speak, following the same Noachide origins but THROUGH Judaism.

I am also a little unclear about the origins of your specific teachings. Can you share? I am also intrigued.
Nahid - inta Druze?:)
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NahidSarvy
05-31-2006, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Nahid - inta Druze?:)
Anaa l-Haqq. ;D

Ha ha, always wanted a chance to use that line.

No. They don't accept converts. I admire their juridical leanings, however, on certain issues and their stalwart political and religious unity over time.

Also, they wear sweet outfits. Pic of a Druze 3aqil (religious man) here for those not constrained by a fear that photographs steal your soul: http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/600...vant/druze.jpg

I didn't find one of a female leader - there are more female 3uqqal than men, but I guess they aren't as photogenic.
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north_malaysian
05-31-2006, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
Anaa l-Haqq. ;D

Ha ha, always wanted a chance to use that line.

No. They don't accept converts. I admire their juridical leanings, however, on certain issues and their stalwart political and religious unity over time.

Also, they wear sweet outfits. Pic of a Druze 3aqil (religious man) here for those not constrained by a fear that photographs steal your soul: http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/600...vant/druze.jpg

I didn't find one of a female leader - there are more female 3uqqal than men, but I guess they aren't as photogenic.
I've seen in Al Jazeera, a Druze sheikh said that whoever one to be Druze he can be Druze whoever wanna leave Druze they can leave.

Asmahan Al Atrache, Fareed Al Atrache and Ramy Ayach are Druzes right?
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Sabi
05-31-2006, 09:58 AM
Once when I was having difficulty explaining my religion to someone I said that it was something like druze, and they kinda got the right idea except that they thought I was a kind of ishmaili, so it backfired in a way. It does seem to me like the Druze must have been Sabi`een who tried to adopt islam but did not quite complete the journey. Very interesting group of people.
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NahidSarvy
05-31-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I've seen in Al Jazeera, a Druze sheikh said that whoever one to be Druze he can be Druze whoever wanna leave Druze they can leave.
Well, that's certainly true within the community - they are extremely laissé-faire about these matters if you are born Druze. I don't know that they accept any outsiders in, though. You marry out, you are out.

They are unusual for their strenuous advocacy of monogamy, which dates back to the 10th century - the Fatimid Imam-Caliphs apparently issued a ruling indicating that since no one could truly be fair to multiple wives, it would be best to not take more than one.
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Asmahan Al Atrache, Fareed Al Atrache and Ramy Ayach are Druzes right?
And Casey Kasem, the famous American disk jockey.

At least one Druze serves in the Israeli Knesset, and the Jumblatt family presumably needs no introduction.
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HeiGou
05-31-2006, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by NahidSarvy
I don't know that they accept any outsiders in, though. You marry out, you are out.

>deletions<

At least one Druze serves in the Israeli Knesset, and the Jumblatt family presumably needs no introduction.
Well the last time I mentioned anything vaguly sectarian (on the history of the Sikhs) I got a whacking great set of demerit points so I am not saying anything about anyone. I am not even going to point out that those two sentences seem mutually contradictory - not the Israeli bit but the other bit. After all I know someone, without mentioning names or any religious beliefs he may have at all, whose Wife, Mother and Grandmother were all Circassian and hence perhaps, you know, something else.

But perhaps I ought to get some demerit points for going off-topic? What was this about again?
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NahidSarvy
05-31-2006, 06:30 PM
Moved it to another thread...
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Sabi
06-07-2006, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
But perhaps I ought to get some demerit points for going off-topic? What was this about again?
Basically its about the mysticism of Johannites, Templars, Masons, Ishmailis, Sufis and any other "gnostic" groups whose mysticism descends from a total or partial misunderstanding of pure monotheistic Sabi beliefs.
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Sabi
06-25-2006, 08:16 PM
I just recently discovered that in his book, The Golden Builders: Alchemists, Rosicrucians, and the First Freemasons (New York: Barnes and Noble, 2002.), Tobias Churton admits to the origins of Freemasonry in the beliefs of the Sabi'ah Mushrikoon (Yezidi) Sabians of Harran. Since it is relevant to the thread, just thought I would add it here.
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