Sinning

[4-Christ-Alone]

I See you all woner wat sins are unforgiven to your God? I am new to the muslim faith and i dont ever intend to follow it. I am a firm believer in Christ Jesus, and that he was the son of God and the saviour to all men.

Im sure most of you know the basis of christianity, we believe our God is the true living God as do you, and that our God is all perfect and sinless, that he cannot look upon sin, guess what man sinned! Oh no boy are we in trouble? going agaisnt an all mighty God who quite frankly, alough he is loving and merciful, has to punish. But God said to himself, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son (John 3:16), that whoever believed in his name, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

So anyway back to the point, if a man rapes a woman, shud the court say, ""there is no punishment for this crime if u say u will repent from it"" no! thats not acceptable, the man should be punished. So what i am asking is, does allah punish sin? if he does, we are all in big trouble and hes not a merciful God, but if he doesnt, ow can a God so good look upon unclean souls as us men? Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

[Woodrow]

I See you all woner wat sins are unforgiven to your God? I am new to the muslim faith and i dont ever intend to follow it. I am a firm believer in Christ Jesus, and that he was the son of God and the saviour to all men.

Im sure most of you know the basis of christianity, we believe our God is the true living God as do you, and that our God is all perfect and sinless, that he cannot look upon sin, guess what man sinned! Oh no boy are we in trouble? going agaisnt an all mighty God who quite frankly, alough he is loving and merciful, has to punish. But God said to himself, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son (John 3:16), that whoever believed in his name, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

So anyway back to the point, if a man rapes a woman, shud the court say, ""there is no punishment for this crime if u say u will repent from it"" no! thats not acceptable, the man should be punished. So what i am asking is, does allah punish sin? if he does, we are all in big trouble and hes not a merciful God, but if he doesnt, ow can a God so good look upon unclean souls as us men? Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

One thing you may hard to Believe. But, Allah is the very same God you worship. Just the Arabic name. Like in spanish it is Dios.

Same God that was revealed through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets.

I also agree nearly one hundred percent with this paragraph. (I edited this sentence and added the word nearly)

"Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony."

When I was Christian, those could very well have been my words. I loved Jesus with all my heart and still do. When I was Christian, I met Jesus. When I reverted to Islam, I got to truly know him, and now know him with a solid belief that a Christian would never comprehend.

[glo]

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.
Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

Welcome, 4-Christ-Alone :)
I hope you enjoy this forum.

If you want to share your testimony of why you believe, there is a folder here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-part-1-a.html
Although Nimrod's question was addresses at all forum members, it seems to have been the Christian members who contributed to the thread.

Hope to see you around. :thankyou:

Blessings.

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


You might want to check this link out:

Islam and Christianity. Is there a Relation ?
http://beconvinced.com/en/article.ph...ted%20Articles


Hope you benefit alot from it insha'Allaah (God willing.) :)


Peace.

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[4-Christ-Alone]

So do any of u believe sin should be punished? And if so arnt we in trouble? Who is your saviour? or do u believe your wrong doing should be unpunished? forgive my ignorance to your religion, i dnt understand it all fully yet.

[Ghazi]

So do any of u believe sin should be punished? And if so arnt we in trouble? Who is your saviour? or do u believe your wrong doing should be unpunished? forgive my ignorance to your religion, i dnt understand it all fully yet.

:sl:

I believe I should punished for things I have done If I havn't repented but I it
won't be fair for someone to be punished for what someone else has done for exmaple jesus.

[- Qatada -]

Hadith Qudsi 34:

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) say: Allah the Almighty said:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

It was related by at-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.


more hadith qudsi (divine hadith):
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...dithqudsi.html

[Muslim Soldier]

i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

Hi

The others have answered yr question. I could not help noticing the above quote. How do you know it was Jesus? Perhaps it was Satan doing that to you.:)

[4-Christ-Alone]

The others have answered yr question. I could not help noticing the above quote. How do you know it was Jesus? Perhaps it was Satan doing that to you.

How do you know when youve got the flu and not the cold by your own judjment? How do u know when its jesus filling you with complete peace and love and not satan. If the supernatural experiences i have had was satan, he has done a great job in turning a mess of a life, into a Godly living life. Of course i cant prove to you it is Jesus who touchs my life, but i have faith that only a loving saviour would show me this kindness, and not a evil enemy!

I believe I should punished for things I have done If I havn't repented but I it
won't be fair for someone to be punished for what someone else has done for exmaple jesus.

You says it is not fair that if Jesus died for the world its not fair, Jesus wasnt forced to save the world, he chose the cross because he thought we were worth dying for, I believe Jesus was God in the form of a man, and as it sayd, For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son, thatwhoever believed in him, should not persih but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Islam-truth, ask yourself if a family member was in trouble, and needed you to help them, say they owed someone money, and you could pay there debt, would you? if you loved them you would! God is love, Jesus is his son, Jesus loves us infinity more times that we love our families, so did he have to think twice about paying our debt of sin, no.

God bless

[Woodrow]

So do any of u believe sin should be punished? And if so arnt we in trouble? Who is your saviour? or do u believe your wrong doing should be unpunished? forgive my ignorance to your religion, i dnt understand it all fully yet.

Bismillallahi ir Rahman ir Raheem
[In the name of God, the Beneficent (provider of all things material and spiritual) the Most Merciful Forgiver.]

Yes we believe our sins will be punished. Yes we know God(swt) will forgive those who repent and have found mercy from God(swt). Only God(swt) has the power to forgive us of our sins. God(swt) is our Saviour.

On the judgement day, The forgiven will gain eternal happiness in Jannah the unforgiven will be cast for all eternity into Hell fire.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Do us sinners punish evil? Even if the person is sincerely sorry and willing to repent? Yes!

So if its right for a sinner to punish evil, even if the person is willing to repent, is it not even more right that an ALL good God should punish whether we repent or not, i believe so, but i believe God loved us to much to punish us so he sent Jesus to pay our punishment. I believe Jesus is the answer to sin.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Sorry what i mean is, i think God HAS to punish evil, and he loves us to much to punish us, so he sent Jesus to take it. And yes i believe God forgives any sin throught Jesus. Exept speaking against the holy spirit of course as that says thats the only unforgivable sin.

[Ghazi]

Sorry what i mean is, i think God HAS to punish evil, and he loves us to much to punish us, so he sent Jesus to take it. And yes i believe God forgives any sin throught Jesus. Exept speaking against the holy spirit of course as that says thats the only unforgivable sin.

:sl:

so you got a licence to sin then since jesus died for our sin you can do what you want.

[Woodrow]

Sorry what i mean is, i think God HAS to punish evil, and he loves us to much to punish us, so he sent Jesus to take it. And yes i believe God forgives any sin throught Jesus. Exept speaking against the holy spirit of course as that says thats the only unforgivable sin.

Our concept of the unforgivable sin is the sin of shirk. which is the worship of or placing of anything or anyone as being equal to God(swt)

The concept of Jesus (swt) dieing for our sins gives Jesus(swt) the same qualities as God (swt) which is shirk. Then if you counter with that Jesus is God(swt) We are already turning to God(swt) to forgive our sins.

[4-Christ-Alone]

so you got a licence to sin then since jesus died for our sin you can do what you want.

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.

Yes we believe our sins will be punished

You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

The concept of Jesus (swt) dieing for our sins gives Jesus(swt) the same qualities as God (swt) which is shirk. Then if you counter with that Jesus is God(swt) We are already turning to God(swt) to forgive our sins.

The concept on Jesus dieing for our sins doesnt give him the same qualities as God, its shows how he became man for us, but the miracles Jesus performed gives him the same qualities as God, because he was God as a man,

If you think of water steam and ice, they are all the same but in different forms, i believe its the same with God the father, son (jesus) and holy spirit. Jesus was God in a different form, like water is ice in a different form

[glo]

:sl:

so you got a licence to sin then since jesus died for our sin you can do what you want.

Come on, islam-truth ... do you really see Christians like that???:rollseyes

Yes, we believe that Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice who paid for the sins of all. We receive salvation and eternal life through him alone.

But that does not give us free licence to continue sinning and doing wrong in the assurance that we are forgiven anyway.

Romans 6:1-2 says this:
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

and Romans 6:15-18:
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

As 4-Christ-Alone indicates, once you know the love of Christ, you will desire to follow him with all your heart! It is done with a free willingness, and is not prompted by fear, guilt or damnation.

Peace.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

ok I apologies to anyone I've offended.

[- Qatada -]

4-Christ-Alone - this is exactly what us as muslims believe.


We believe that God will forgive us if we are sorry for what we did, as you just stated above. And if we repent, God will remove the sin from us and hence we will not be punished.

We don't believe that God needs to send down a 'son' to be killed by a creation of God, because we feel that it would degrade God and God can forgive sins without having to sacrifice anything on His behalf. The creation is owned by God, and He gives whatever he wills to whomever he wills without any weakness whatsoever.


The reason a person may be punished by God is if they persistently sin without no regret, and if God was to forgive everyone and the person did whatever he/she wanted - then there would be no difference between the one who helps the needy, gives in charity, smiles at his brother etc. and the murderer, rapist etc. This is why God will punish the sinner if they do not repent for their actions, and the ones who did good will be rewarded equally.


However, after the believer who believed in pure monotheism has had his/her punishment - then they will be rewarded with paradise too. And they can have whatever they desire there - whether the person is male or female. This reward will be through the mercy of God.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Zulkiflim]

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.



You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

Salaam,

You in one word you say that if you accept Propeht Jesus son of Mary as as god then your sin are forgiven...but now you say IF YOU ARE TRULLY SORRY...

Who judges if youa re trully sorry ...you or god?
How do you know that you are forgiven?
Do you take it upon yourself that becasue YOU think you accept Propeht Jesus son of Mary as as god then you are forgiven?

May i ask,in your mind,do you think god forgives you your every repeated sin?

In Islam we do not need to sacrifice anythign to receive forgiveness,,,YOU MERELY ASK...Is asking so difficult..

Allah forgives for he is the MOST MERCIFUL..

[Woodrow]

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.



You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

Do you agree that God(swt) is infinitly powerfull and can do simly by saying it is done?

Are we as Humans so arrogant that we think we can do something so strong that God(swt) would have to provide a sacrifice in order for Him to forgive us? Isn't that giving us a little bit too much value in the universe? Isn't that also saying God(swt) is not infinitly powerfull and can not forgive without simply saying the word? Dosen't God(swt) love us enough so that if it is his will to forgive us as individuals he only needs to say the word?

[4-Christ-Alone]

We also believe that God will figive us if we are truely sorry, but only throught Christ!

You dont believe that God doesnt need to send down a son as a sacrafice, well i believe God is so rightous and pure that a sacrifice had to be made for his creations evil / sin.

I believe he is so rightous he cant be in the presence of sin, and the blood of Jesus washes that sin away.

Just before Jesus died in the NT Jesus said " Father why have u forsaken me"? Because for the first time in his life God had to look away from him, for the first time God looked away from him because he was carrying the worlds sin. God cannot look upon sin......until that soul has been cleasned by the precious blood of Chist. The great sacrifice, our salvation.

[snakelegs]

Are we as Humans so arrogant that we think we can do something so strong that God(swt) would have to provide a sacrifice in order for Him to forgive us? Isn't that giving us a little bit too much value in the universe? Isn't that also saying God(swt) is not infinitly powerfull and can not forgive without simply saying the word? Dosen't God(swt) love us enough so that if it is his will to forgive us as individuals he only needs to say the word?

good point.

[- Qatada -]

The concept on Jesus dieing for our sins doesnt give him the same qualities as God, its shows how he became man for us, but the miracles Jesus performed gives him the same qualities as God, because he was God as a man,

The reason why its so hard to believe is because you said that jesus (peace be upon him) was God, so does that mean god sacrificed himself? And if he sacrificed himself, then why did jesus say 'why has thou forsaken me' if he himself was god?

And if god sacrificed himself, then we as muslims feel that God does not put himself down.


But instead, God sends messengers to mankind to tell them to worship the one God who created them, all the way from Aadam till Muhammad (peace be upon him.) And Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of God too, who performed many miracles by the will of God, but the reason he performed them miracles was to call people to worship the One God who created them. Each prophet had their own miracle to call people to God.

If the humans in that nation obeyed God, they would be granted paradise, whereas if they rejected worshipping God - they would end up in the hellfire.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[4-Christ-Alone]

but now you say IF YOU ARE TRULLY SORRY...

Who judges if youa re trully sorry ...you or god?
How do you know that you are forgiven?
Do you take it upon yourself that becasue YOU think you accept Propeht Jesus son of Mary as as god then you are forgiven?

Ok firstly i think its common sense that if some1 is not truely sorry why should they be forgiven? excuse my lack of words but i think ur bright enuf to work out what i meant.

How do u know your forgiven? You believe that quran but u dnt know ur forgiven. i dont know im forgiven but i believe the bible and believe that now i live for christ i am forgiven, thats part of faith.

Isn't that giving us a little bit too much value in the universe? Isn't that also saying God(swt) is not infinitly powerfull and can not forgive without simply saying the word? Dosen't God(swt) love us enough so that if it is his will to forgive us as individuals he only needs to say the word?

Like i said, the God i believe in is so rightous he cannot look upon sin, and if ur God can forgive just by saying the word, i wudnt want to follow him if he was true, but thats my on views, i want my God to be so rightous he cant be around sin.

[Woodrow]

We also believe that God will figive us if we are truely sorry, but only throught Christ!

You dont believe that God doesnt need to send down a son as a sacrafice, well i believe God is so rightous and pure that a sacrifice had to be made for his creations evil / sin.

I believe he is so rightous he cant be in the presence of sin, and the blood of Jesus washes that sin away.

Just before Jesus died in the NT Jesus said " Father why have u forsaken me"? Because for the first time in his life God had to look away from him, for the first time God looked away from him because he was carrying the worlds sin. God cannot look upon sin......until that soul has been cleasned by the precious blood of Chist. The great sacrifice, our salvation.

"I believe he is so rightous he cant be in the presence of sin, and the blood of Jesus washes that sin away."

Yet, you say God(swt) and Jesus(pbuh) are the same person. If that was true would that not mean God(swt) was in the presence of sin, which you say he can not be?

[glo]

Do you agree that God(swt) is infinitly powerfull and can do simly by saying it is done?

Are we as Humans so arrogant that we think we can do something so strong that God(swt) would have to provide a sacrifice in order for Him to forgive us? Isn't that giving us a little bit too much value in the universe? Isn't that also saying God(swt) is not infinitly powerfull and can not forgive without simply saying the word? Dosen't God(swt) love us enough so that if it is his will to forgive us as individuals he only needs to say the word?

Yes, but equally, who are we to judge how God chooses to deal with his people? :?

Who are we to say that God should not choose to sacrifice his son as atonement for our sins?
Isn't that like saying 'God, I know better than you?' :X

Peace.

[4-Christ-Alone]

like i said, Water and Ice are the same but in different forms, Jesus was God in a different God, I believe God sent the son because the father couldnt be in our sin, so thats why he sent himself in the form on a man rathewr than God himselff the father.

[- Qatada -]

How do u know your forgiven? You believe that quran but u dnt know ur forgiven. i dont know im forgiven but i believe the bible and believe that now i live for christ i am forgiven, thats part of faith.

We will find out on the day of judgement. Where the believers will be rewarded for what they did, and the disbelievers will be punished for what they did.

Like i said, the God i believe in is so rightous he cannot look upon sin, and if ur God can forgive just by saying the word, i wudnt want to follow him if he was true, but thats my on views, i want my God to be so rightous he cant be around sin.

God created everything, and God created sin to test if men would incline to sin or would they submit to God instead.

Because God created sin, the disbeliever will be punished for it. And the believer will be rewarded for their good. God does not fear sin, but it is only a trial to test mankind.



Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[- Qatada -]

like i said, Water and Ice are the same but in different forms, Jesus was God in a different God, I believe God sent the son because the father couldnt be in our sin, so thats why he sent himself in the form on a man rathewr than God himselff the father.

Isn't that polytheism? Worshipping two gods? Because ice and water are two different substances.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Because God created sin, the disbeliever will be punished for it. And the believer will be rewarded for their good. God does not fear sin, but it is only a trial to test mankind.

Well i dont know about God creating sin, maybe he did, but u could say God created freedom of choice to the angels and man and we created sin ourself. If it wasnt possible to sin from day 1 then God wud have created a bunch of robots, but i guess he wants us to choose him, and choose to live and Godly life.

[- Qatada -]

Yes, but equally, who are we to judge how God chooses to deal with his people? :?

Who are we to say that God should not choose to sacrifice his son as atonement for our sins?
Isn't that like saying 'God, I know better than you?' :X

Peace.

We believe that God is too great to have offspring of any kind. And God does not lower Himself to the state of a humanbeing.

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

And there is none like unto Him


(Chapter 113 in the Qur'an)

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Well i dont know about God creating sin, maybe he did, but u could say God created freedom of choice to the angels and man and we created sin ourself. If it wasnt possible to sin from day 1 then God wud have created a bunch of robots, but i guess he wants us to choose him, and choose to live and Godly life.

Yup :) and thats one of the similarities between christianity and islam.

However, we don't believe that we as humans created sin, and we don't believe that angels have a freedom of choice - but instead, they worship God continuously, and never disobey God whatsoever. Whereas man is prone to error, and will continuously fall into sin - therefore man should always strive towards his Lord and beg for forgiveness.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Woodrow]

Well i dont know about God creating sin, maybe he did, but u could say God created freedom of choice to the angels and man and we created sin ourself. If it wasnt possible to sin from day 1 then God wud have created a bunch of robots, but i guess he wants us to choose him, and choose to live and Godly life.

I have no disagreement with that statement. I believe that to be true, except instead of saying "we created sin ourself" I would say it as "we choose sin ourself".

[4-Christ-Alone]

Isn't that polytheism? Worshipping two gods? Because ice and water are two different substances

if water as liquid is nice to drink, water as solid ( ice ) is nice to suck.

If God as a man is worthy of praise, God as son is also, especially if he scaraficed himself for us

[4-Christ-Alone]

if God as father is worthy to praise, so is the son***

[glo]

We believe that God is too great to have offspring of any kind. And God does not lower Himself to the state of a humanbeing.

I know you do. :)

Christians believe otherwise.
Either way, God is great, and above all our disagreements and squabblings!
:statisfie

God Bless.

[Woodrow]

Perhaps this would be a good time to start pointing out our areas of agreement.

I think we can agree there is only one God(swt)

I think we can agree Jesus(I'sa)(pbuh) was born of a miraculous birth to a virgin, Maryam (Mary) and the birth was hearaled by the angels.

I think we can agree that Man sins and can not enter the gates of Heaven without the sins being forgiven.

[4-Christ-Alone]

awsome, enjoyed that guys, speak again soon no doubt

God bless

My name is sean btw im 18 / m / scotland

[glo]

Perhaps this would be a good time to start pointing out our areas of agreement.

I think we can agree there is only one God(swt)

I think we can agree Jesus(I'sa)(pbuh) was born of a miraculous birth to a virgin, Maryam (Mary) and the birth was hearaled by the angels.

I think we can agree that Man sins and can not enter the gates of Heaven without the sins being forgiven.

Good starting point, Woodrow! :)

[*Hana*]

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.



You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

Peace to you:

You make it sound like God owes us something. Like He's sorry that He created right and wrong that He had to send an innocent man to die. If God wants to forgive, He has the power to simply forgive. No need for a middle man for that. Why a 3rd person, when as you said, God knows your heart. Why would I pray to someone other than the one who created me. God's mercy far outweighs his anger. We are here to serve Him, not the other way around. He gaves us the right and wrong, He told us what we need to do. Do it and you find Jannah, don't do it and, well a different abode could be waiting for you. :rollseyes

Those who submit to the will of God, and turn to him for everything are following what He taught. He loves those that turn to Him and He loves to forgive. Why should He forgive someone who doesn't care about His law and turned their back on Him? He doesn't need his creations....His creations need Him.

Peace,
Hana

[glo]

awsome, enjoyed that guys, speak again soon no doubt

God bless

My name is sean btw im 18 / m / scotland

Nice to meet you Sean! :thankyou:

[- Qatada -]

Chapter 5 in the Qur'an:

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. (5:72)

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)


Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful (5:74)

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:75)


Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." (5:76)

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. (5:77)






And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5:116)


"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (5:117)

"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." (5:118)

Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). (5:119)

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things. (5:120)

Peace.

[Woodrow]

awsome, enjoyed that guys, speak again soon no doubt

God bless

My name is sean btw im 18 / m / scotland

Peace be with You Sean, I look foreward to your return. It is good to see your views. I hope you will have the patience to try to understand us too. I believe I can speak for most here by saying you will be treated fairly and any disagreements will be treated with respect and dignity.

[4-Christ-Alone]

We are here to serve Him, not the other way around.

Well thats what makes me love God even more, we believe God came to earth to serve us, which blows my mind and shows of his love for us.

I hope you will have the patience to try to understand us too.

Yes mate, the bible says love is many things and patience is one of them, and i plan to be that :) and i respect your believes, and have enjoyed hearing your views also. thats me off

nice to meet u to brother glo

God bless

Sean

[Ghazi]

:sl:

we believe God came to earth to serve us

Really can you explain this in more detail.

[glo]

nice to meet u to brother glo

Sean

I'm a woman, actually. :statisfie
But don't worry, it happens all the time. I don't think these non-Islamic gender pics are particularly clear.

It would be nice to see you back.

Blessings. :)

[*Hana*]

Well thats what makes me love God even more, we believe God came to earth to serve us, which blows my mind and shows of his love for us.

Ohhh, please provide me the verse that says God came to serve His creations and submit to them. In all my years as a Christian I was never taught that, never read it, never had reference to it in any way, shape or form.

If He created us so He could serve and worship us, why exactly are you praying? :muddlehea Why would there be the need of a saviour at all....that would serve no purpose whatsoever.

What exactly is the purpose of God serving us? :confused:

Peace,
Hana

[glo]

Ohhh, please provide me the verse that says God came to serve His creations and submit to them. In all my years as a Christian I was never taught that, never read it, never had reference to it in any way, shape or form.

If He created us so He could serve and worship us, why exactly are you praying? :muddlehea Why would there be the need of a saviour at all....that would serve no purpose whatsoever.

What exactly is the purpose of God serving us? :confused:

Peace,
Hana

I meant to reply to islam-truth's post earlier, but got distracted ...
I can see how this statement would sound very disturbing to Muslims.

Christians believe - as you know - that Jesus is God's son who came to earth in human form to live amongst us.
During his teaching years he demonstrated to us how we should love and serve each other.
Jesus served the people around him - don't you think? He healed them, he fed them, he even washed his disciples feet (a very humbling act of service, indeed!)
As Christians we should try to follow Christ's example - to serve and love each other just as he taught us to do.

Of course we should worship and serve God! God and his creation, in fact ... that's what Jesus did!

Does that make it clearer?

Blessings.:)

[Umar001]

Just before Jesus died in the NT Jesus said " Father why have u forsaken me"? Because for the first time in his life God had to look away from him, for the first time God looked away from him because he was carrying the worlds sin. God cannot look upon sin......until that soul has been cleasned by the precious blood of Chist. The great sacrifice, our salvation.

In post 25:

Like i said, the God i believe in is so rightous he cannot look upon sin, and if ur God can forgive just by saying the word, i wudnt want to follow him if he was true, but thats my on views, i want my God to be so rightous he cant be around sin.

Many a times G-d is said to have looked at the people:

Exodus 2:25
So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them.

1 Chronicles 17:17
And as if this were not enough in your sight, O God, you have spoken about the future of the house of your servant. You have looked on me as though I were the most exalted of men, O LORD God.

G-d also walked with Enoch, was he a sinner?

Genesis 5:22
And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.

In post 28:

like i said, Water and Ice are the same but in different forms, Jesus was God in a different God, I believe God sent the son because the father couldnt be in our sin, so thats why he sent himself in the form on a man rathewr than God himselff the father.

So Jesus can be among sinners but the Father cannot. Just out of wonder, water, ice and steam, we can see the differences in, can you tell us the differences between Jesus the G-d, Father the G-d and Holy Spirit the G-d.

Just wondering bro Fi Sabilillah and Woodrow:

Well i dont know about God creating sin, maybe he did, but u could say God created freedom of choice to the angels and man and we created sin ourself. If it wasnt possible to sin from day 1 then God wud have created a bunch of robots, but i guess he wants us to choose him, and choose to live and Godly life.

Yup:) and thats one of the similarities between christianity and islam.

Isn't that shirk, to ascribe the status of creator to creation?


I think because I have missed quite abit of the thread I shall stop there in order to stop things being repeated.

Anyhow, I hope to learn from this and anymistakes are mine.

As Eric H says, In the spirit of seeking truth or was it peace :giggling:

Peace be upon yall.

Also do not feel like anyone's gotta respond because I am bringing stuff thats abit old, so if yall already moved on then ignore me :p

[Umar001]

Of course we should worship and serve God! God and his creation, in fact ... that's what Jesus did!

Im under the impression thats a typin mistake, well I hope it is.

Peace,

[glo]

Im under the impression thats a typin mistake, well I hope it is.

Peace,

Yes! :giggling:

What I meant was worship God, and serve God and his creation.
Better? :rollseyes
Sorry.

Peace. :)

[Umar001]

Yes! :giggling:

What I meant was worship God, and serve God and his creation.
Better? :rollseyes
Sorry.

Peace. :)

Dont be sorry :giggling: happens to most of us.

Jus wanted to get it said before anyone jumped on here and started accusing you of worshiping them :giggling: :giggling:

Peaceeee

[*Hana*]

I meant to reply to islam-truth's post earlier, but got distracted ...
I can see how this statement would sound very disturbing to Muslims.

Christians believe - as you know - that Jesus is God's son who came to earth in human form to live amongst us.
During his teaching years he demonstrated to us how we should love and serve each other.
Jesus served the people around him - don't you think? He healed them, he fed them, he even washed his disciples feet (a very humbling act of service, indeed!)
As Christians we should try to follow Christ's example - to serve and love each other just as he taught us to do.

Of course we should worship and serve God! God and his creation, in fact ... that's what Jesus did!

Does that make it clearer?

Blessings.:)

Peace to you:

Sooooo glad you clarified that. lol

As Muslims we believe Jesus, pbuh, was one of the greatest prophets, born through miraculous birth, he was very pious, performed many miracles through, (as He says), God's will and not His own, and brought the same message as all the prophets before Him, but not through His own words as He says, but using God's word.

And yes, we also agree, Jesus, pbuh, totally submitted His will to God. When He performed ablution, when He fell down in prostration with His face to the ground, when He greeted His followers with "Peace be upon you" and when He taught, "There is only ONE that is good", and "only ONE that knows the time and day of the Day of Judgement", He is telling you there is only ONE worthy of worship and that is God. My God and your God....He tells you that He as well as His followers submit to the same God, He is not telling them to submit to Him because He IS God.

So, yes, absolutely He wanted people to behave as He behaved because He was serving God and doing as God willed Him to do.....to teach the people and spread the message.

A Prophet of God is the best representation of the message being sent, so of course they will behave in the same manner. Jesus, pbuh, upheld the laws of the Prophets before Him and continued to teach people how to do that as well by obeying the commandments. He abided by all the commandments and never sinned because this is what He was suppose to do. You can't have a Prophet of God sinning, and disobeying the commandment of God while telling the people to do different. So, for sure, all the Prophets were the best of men with total submission to God.

Peace,
Hana

[glo]

Ohhh, please provide me the verse that says God came to serve His creations and submit to them. In all my years as a Christian I was never taught that, never read it, never had reference to it in any way, shape or form.

Jesus said that he 'did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.' (Matthew 20:28)

Of course this assumes that you believe Jesus to be God (which Christians do believe) ... but that's a debate for another thread ... :rollseyes

Peace. :)

[glo]

Dont be sorry :giggling: happens to most of us.

Jus wanted to get it said before anyone jumped on here and started accusing you of worshiping them :giggling: :giggling:

Peaceeee

Thanks, bro! :)

[Umar001]

Thanks, bro! :)

No problemo sis, lol got it right!

if you see me make such a mistake point it out please, cos im prone to typing too fast sometimes ;D ;D

[- Qatada -]

Just wondering bro Fi Sabilillah and Woodrow:



Isn't that shirk, to ascribe the status of creator to creation?

:salamext:


Brother, i'm really sorry as i never meant that at all.

I've changed my post, and highlighted the parts that i agreed on (which i agreed to.)

you can view it now insha'Allaah:
http://www.islamicboard.com/340577-post33.html


jazak Allaah khayr sooo much for pointin out my mistake. :)



:wasalamex

[Umar001]

:salamext:


Brother, i'm really sorry as i never meant that at all.

I've changed my post, and highlighted the parts that i agreed on (which i agreed to.)

you can view it now insha'Allaah:
http://www.islamicboard.com/340577-post33.html


jazak Allaah khayr sooo much for pointin out my mistake. :)

:wasalamex

No worries with me akhi, if you see me do the same, then point it out to me bro, p.s how do u do that link where it only shows your post?

Salam aleykum

[- Qatada -]

:wasalamex


Will do insha'Allaah.

To get the link on the post, on the top right hand side of every post - it shows the post no. (i.e. this is post #60) - so right click on the post no. and 'copy link location/shortcut' - then you can paste the posts direct link insha'Allaah.


If you still don't understand, just ask insha'Allaah.


:salamext:

[Umar001]

I got it thanks

Peep

[Woodrow]

In post 25:







Just wondering bro Fi Sabilillah and Woodrow:



Isn't that shirk, to ascribe the status of creator to creation?

Thank you for pointing that our Bro. IsaAbdullah. I went back and edited my reply:

I have no disagreement with that statement. I believe that to be true, except instead of saying "we created sin ourself" I would say it as "we choose sin ourself".

[Umar001]

NO problemo, please do the same when I make a mistake brother Woodrow.

Regards

Salam Aleykum Eesa

[4-Christ-Alone]

So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them.

Ok maybe saying God cudnt look on sin was the wrong choice of words, but what i meant was for the first time in Jesus' life, because he was carrying the worlds sin, Gods presence or spirit was away from him, and thats why i believe he sayd father why have you forsaken me.

So Jesus can be among sinners but the Father cannot. Just out of wonder, water, ice and steam, we can see the differences in, can you tell us the differences between Jesus the G-d, Father the G-d and Holy Spirit the G-d.

I see Jesus as a man, the holy spirit as the spirit of God, and God the father as God.

[Skillganon]

I see Jesus as a man, the holy spirit as the spirit of God, and God the father as God.

EDIT: for typo

I heard, from other christian, if you deny Jesus Godhood than you are not a christian. What sect of christianity you follow?

[Woodrow]

Is there any Bible passage that says this or refers to it?

I see Jesus as a man, the holy spirit as the spirit of God, and God the father as God.

[Skillganon]

I don't think so, but what I hear from most christian is Jesus reffered as a God-Man. He is "fully god and fully human" at the same time. Don't ask me how this is possible, it's not my theology or based on my sound reasoning.

Any christian to help?

[4-Christ-Alone]

I heard, from other christian, if you nedy Jesus Godhood than you are not a christian. What sect of christianity you follow?

i dont know what nedy means and dnt really understand what u mean? cud u explain more plz mate? thnx

Is there any Bible passage that says this or refers to it?

Sorry woodrow i do not, ive only been a christian for 7 months, so i dont know verses off the top of my head, but i know Jesus was a man and the son of God. sorry dude.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Ah np, well i have learned tonight that i dnt know or came across any scipture thats says Jesus is God as a man, not saying there is none but i have not come across any. Alough i can think of a cuple that say he was the son of God, i am going to look about it and i will post what i find.

[Woodrow]

i dont know what nedy means and dnt really understand what u mean? cud u explain more plz mate? thnx



Sorry woodrow i do not, ive only been a christian for 7 months, so i dont know verses off the top of my head, but i know Jesus was a man and the son of God. sorry dude.

No problem. I can understand that. I've only been a revert to Islam a little over a year, so I can't quite recite Quran Surahs on demand either.

Excuse my manners, I neglected to welcome you back to the thread. It is good to have some one here willing to discusses differences peacefully and not get in a tiff cause we believe differently.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Well to not come peacefully, i wud be aborting christianity :)

So do u mind me asking of this topic how u converted from christianity to islam?

[Skillganon]

Ah np, well i have learned tonight that i dnt know or came across any scipture thats says Jesus is God as a man, not saying there is none but i have not come across any. Alough i can think of a cuple that say he was the son of God, i am going to look about it and i will post what i find.

Sorry, the claim "Jesus is Fully human and fully God" is their way of rationalising Jesus perk for food and water and his human supscibility without denying him as God.

[4-Christ-Alone]

I think, but might be wrong that the entire flow of the Old Testament requires that God come into the world, as Immanuel (God-with-us e.g. Isaiah 7:14).

[Woodrow]

Well to not come peacefully, i wud be aborting christianity :)

So do u mind me asking of this topic how u converted from christianity to islam?

I have no problem with repeating that. I was born Roman Catholic in a very deeply devout family. I was raised as all good Catholic boys should be, Catechism, Alter boy latter CYO. When got older Joined the Kof C, Sacred Heart Society and the rest. Had intended to be a Priest. Went into the Military first. For various reasons because of my 2 different Military experiences I got to learn several Languages and visit many countries. During this time several things happened.
I was severaly injured, spent a year in a body cast
I had to reconsider my choice of careers as it was obvious a physical career was now out of the question. I came across a religious impasse and had a question of faith. I converted to Buddhism, although in reality I was an agnostic.

I began my academic life, first love was in Engineering, pursued that then decided I wanted more. I was more interested in Philosophy, Linguistics, culture, and biology. Started my new life on the road to be either a Biologist or Psychologist. Settled on physiological psychology.

well long path, many countries visited, several languages learned. Lots of religous studies in several comparative religion courses.

Then the tragedy of life began hitting. My second wife passed away, various financial problems and I lost every possession I had ever owned and was left unemployable, savings whiped out, only income a few dollars a month from the USAF for service connected disability.

I began reading the Qur'an in Arabic again. I had not even looked at it in almost 30 years. My intent was to refresh my Arabic skills and get my mind off my problems. somewhere I became totaly engrossed in the Qur'an I realised I was not reading it, I was feeling it. I really do not know how long I read, but I know I read it at least 2 times non stop and I was overcome with a feeling of total peace and knew everything would be alright. I knew at that moment I was Muslim. I said my Shahadah then and there. That Friday I found the closest Mosque, which was 60 miles from me, got a ride to it and repeated the Shahadah at the Mosque.

Feel more peace comfort and joy now then I ever have.

[4-Christ-Alone]

thats a great testimony mate.

When I was Christian, those could very well have been my words. I loved Jesus with all my heart and still do. When I was Christian, I met Jesus. When I reverted to Islam, I got to truly know him, and now know him with a solid belief that a Christian would never comprehend

I just wondered u said here when u were a christian? but was it a christian or a catholic you were? My mum went to the catholic church for 35 years and never became a christian until she left that church, accepted Jesus and felt the same supernatural feeling i did the night i gave my life to him.

There is some difference in the two religions i just wondering what one u followed?

You also said you know him with a solid belief that a Christian would never comprehend, what do u mean by this?

Peace

Sean

[Woodrow]

As a Muslim we get to know Jesus as a person. Not just any person, but as a prophet sent by God(swt). Because we see him in this light his miracles become even more amazing and show the love of God(swt) in a manner that is difficult to comprehend, when you view his as being divine.

He does truly reflect God's Love as can only be experienced by a human. It is only after the true gosples were lost and rewritten did the modern concept of Jesus(pbuh) come about. The truth of the true Jesus is much more beautifull and much more directed to man kind then what is reflected in the modern renditions of the bible.

[4-Christ-Alone]

thats awsome, but u cant really speak for other christians in saying u know him in a way we cant comprehend.

You say u were brought up as a catholic, so was my mum and she never knew him in a way she does now. so was i to that matter, are you comparing the way you used to know him, to the way u know him now? Maybe christians have a better relationship with him than you did as one? and wernt u a catholic anyway? so how can u speak for christians unless u were 1?

If i am misunderstanding what ur saying sorry dude and please correct me.

I wont be able to replky until 2mor, God bless mate. speak 2mor!

[Woodrow]

It has always struck as odd that so many Christians refer to Catholics and Orthodox as being non-Christian, as between them they make up nearly 3/4 of the people that call themselves Christian. the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Churches (Eastern Catholic, opposed to Roman) were the only Christians prior to the 1400's.

Makes it difficult to understand just what a Christian is.

Peace be with you Sean. Looking foreward to your return.

[Zulkiflim]

Ok firstly i think its common sense that if some1 is not truely sorry why should they be forgiven? excuse my lack of words but i think ur bright enuf to work out what i meant.

How do u know your forgiven? You believe that quran but u dnt know ur forgiven. i dont know im forgiven but i believe the bible and believe that now i live for christ i am forgiven, thats part of faith.



Like i said, the God i believe in is so rightous he cannot look upon sin, and if ur God can forgive just by saying the word, i wudnt want to follow him if he was true, but thats my on views, i want my God to be so rightous he cant be around sin.

Salaam,

So in short you dont know that you are forgiven just that YOU THINK YOU ARE FORGIVEN>.

Correct..

For muslim in prayer and in every time when we rememeber we ask for forgiveness and mercy for our lacks and weakneses,and for Allah to grant stregth and wisdom and patience.We ask,whether we recive it or not ,,whehter we are happy or sad,,we SUBMIT...
We dont take it upon ourslves to say for Allah that he has forgiven us.

As for your word that you want God to be soo righteous..
Again you ar limiting god to the concpet of weakness..or rahter of your desires and wishes of what you imagine god to be..


And you have shown god weakness that he cant stand be around sin,,,thus does he cast it aside and is not able to enter where sin is..

In Islam we say,good or bad is from Allah,in reaction to our action.
This world is a test ..a trasitory period..it wont last long..

Lastly,i would say that your wishes for god to be,,is a god in your minds eye and not god perse..

Allah is Allah..

Do not limit god to your understanding or your wishes or weakness.
Submit...

Worship the Creator not Creation..

[4-Christ-Alone]

Woodrow there are some differences between catholics and christians, i believe catholcs believe you are saved by faith and 7 scraments, but the bible teaches we are saved by faith in christ alone or repentence. Another difference is priests believe they have authority to forgive sins on behave of God, We believe on God and Jesus has this authority. im sure there are other differences but these two are the only i know.

So in short you dont know that you are forgiven just that YOU THINK YOU ARE FORGIVEN

Whats with the caps mate? why so annoyed? You say i think im forgiven, i trust the OT and NT is the word of God, and i have faith that i have been forgiven for my sins. So for you to say YOU THINK YOU ARE FORGIVEN, is wrong to say, because if i only THINK IVE BEEN FORGIVEN then so do. its called faith in our religion!

[Umar001]

Just really want to put my two cents in, or as im in the uk my two pennies.

The topic of this thread is going from place to place, from Sinning, to Testimony to OT prophecies.

I think personally, to help us get the best out of any form of talking it would be abit wise to make a different thread of each so we could focous more.

To Sean if I may refer to you by name,

I think maybe instead of answering the questions of people, this goes to muslims too we try and refer to our sources first because answering from the top of our head without refering to sources may lead into actually confusing ourselves and the people we are talking to and G-d is not the Author of confusion.

I also would just like to put basic background here, for my benefit and hopefully some will agree.

I believe most of us here are genuine in our search and love for G-d, most of us want to end up in Paradise.
Most of us are here to talk and recieve and give benefit, so it is only logical for us to be talking to each other with the mind state of accepting the good and the bits we disagree with we leave for now, it is not for a man of G-d to come with a closed mind and simply scream 'your wrong your wrong' but rather to understand the view point and see which benefits him and which doesn't and then speak on it.

The fundamentals are there between most of us, you see, most here want to 'follow' a man that lived a while ago, peace be upon him, who was a man of G-d, a man who preformed miracles and was born of a virgin birth.
But it seems that although we both wanna follow him, muslims and christians we have a different view of who he is, thats all, and thats where we should try and see what parts of what views are similar and correct and so on.

With this said here I go:

Ok maybe saying God cudnt look on sin was the wrong choice of words, but what i meant was for the first time in Jesus' life, because he was carrying the worlds sin, Gods presence or spirit was away from him, and thats why i believe he sayd father why have you forsaken me.

So before then G-d's presence was with Jesus, and Jesus was with sinners.

So it seems that G-d's presence was with sinners too.

I see Jesus as a man, the holy spirit as the spirit of God, and God the father as God.

Me too, I believe Jesus was a man, a great man, a word and spirit from G-d, Acts 2:22 affirms Jesus was a man.

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

I believe The Holy Spirit, peace be upon him, is a spirit preceding from G-d.

And I believe that the figure called The Father in the Bible is the G-d Almighty.

I think, but might be wrong that the entire flow of the Old Testament requires that God come into the world, as Immanuel (God-with-us e.g. Isaiah 7:14).

I don't think it does. Scriptures like that and Isiah 9:6 For to us a child is born. Do not actaully require people think that G-d will come as a Man.

Anyhow, thats a whole new topic there.

Peace be upon yall.
Eesa

[glo]

It has always struck as odd that so many Christians refer to Catholics and Orthodox as being non-Christian, as between them they make up nearly 3/4 of the people that call themselves Christian. the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Churches (Eastern Catholic, opposed to Roman) were the only Christians prior to the 1400's.

Hi Woodrow

That's an interesting topic!
I grew up as a Catholic, and never thought of myself as non-Christian!
Since I have moved away from Catholicism to the Protestant church, I have realised that many protestants do not consider catholics to be Christians.

Personally, I would describe Catholics as Christians, because they do believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, in his death and ressurection.
Personally I think it is proud and self-righteous thing to assume oneself to be better than another ... because in God's eyes things might look differently. After all, we only see what's on the surface - God sees all the way into our very beings, hearts, and souls!

There are some marked differences between catholicism and protestantism, as I am sure you are aware. The protestant church, when it emerged, had many criticism of how the catholic church had developed over the years ... and many traditions were found unbiblical.
Praying to the saints, the importance of relics and statues in the churches, the power (politically as well as spiritually) that was given to the Pope as the 'representative of God on earth' ... all those things met with Luther's dispproval.

For me, one of the most important differences, now I call myself a born-again-Christian, is the direct relationship I have with God. No Pope or priest to act as the middle man. I have a direct line to God the Father! :statisfie

And I very much relate to Sean's experience of becoming a Christian:
To take the step and dedicate your life to God/Jesus and his teachings, has been amazing, and has changed my life beyond compare.
Yes, I have believed in God all my life, but my faith did not become alive until I found a direct relationship with Jesus!
You were a Christian once. I expect you know what I mean. :)

Blessings.

[4-Christ-Alone]

So before then G-d's presence was with Jesus, and Jesus was with sinners.

So it seems that G-d's presence was with sinners too.

I agree with what u said about having sources to what u say, and i will do that from now on.

What i have been taught as a christian is that God could not be with sinners, so thats why he had to become us, i.e a man to be in our presence.

I should have look more in sriptures about it by now, but i wll be searching for the answers as of now. :-)

Peace,

[Umar001]

I agree with what u said about having sources to what u say, and i will do that from now on.

What i have been taught as a christian is that God could not be with sinners, so thats why he had to become us, i.e a man to be in our presence.

I should have look more in sriptures about it by now, but i wll be searching for the answers as of now. :-)

Peace,

Hey no worries bro, we all should know more than we know, but we aint perfect :heated:

But when I stated about refering back to scripture I hope you didn't feel I meant just you for it was a reminder to me first and to everyone.

Im sure it will help us all in getting back to the roots of both faiths.

Anyhow thanks for being patient with me.
Glo:

I have a direct line to God the Father!

1 Timothy 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Aint we meanto go through Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother and his followers, so it aint really straight direct with G-d the Father.

Peace

EDIT:

What i have been taught as a christian is that God could not be with sinners, so thats why he had to become us, i.e a man to be in our presence.

I think I was taught something similar too, I think scripture says something about this but I cant remember it exactly, and I don't think it is as explicit as what I was taught.

[glo]

1 Timothy 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hi IsaAbdullah

Now I'm starting to think you are nitpicking! ;D

Yes, Jesus is our mediator.

Firstly, as Timothy says, he mediated between God and us when he died and made atonement for our sins.

He is also a mediator between us and God, in the sense that people often address him in prayer to intercede for us.
The reason for this, I believe, is that Christians relate to Jesus particularly, because he lived, suffered and died as a man - which in some ways makes God seem more 'human' to us (I bet I won't get away with that comment either! ;D )
What I mean by that (don't shoot me - I'm only trying to explain what I believe!), is that some may feel that Jesus has a better understanding of human suffering, having suffered so much himself, and therefore they are drawn to him in prayer.
Remember that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit in Christian teaching all all the same God, thereby we always address God in prayer!

I hope this makes sense.
:rollseyes

:thankyou: Peace.

[Tania]

It has always struck as odd that so many Christians refer to Catholics and Orthodox as being non-Christian,

I ensure you catholics are christian:)

[Umar001]

I ensure you catholics are christian:)

They do alot of stuff thats not particularly in the Bible dont they?

[Tania]

They do alot of stuff thats not particularly in the Bible dont they?

Like what?

[Umar001]

Hi IsaAbdullah

Now I'm starting to think you are nitpicking! ;D

Im a man of detail lol hehe

Yes, Jesus is our mediator.

Firstly, as Timothy says, he mediated between God and us when he died and made atonement for our sins.

He is also a mediator between us and God, in the sense that people often address him in prayer to intercede for us.
The reason for this, I believe, is that Christians relate to Jesus particularly, because he lived, suffered and died as a man - which in some ways makes God seem more 'human' to us (I bet I won't get away with that comment either! ;D )
What I mean by that (don't shoot me - I'm only trying to explain what I believe!), is that some may feel that Jesus has a better understanding of human suffering, having suffered so much himself, and therefore they are drawn to him in prayer.
Remember that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit in Christian teaching all all the same God, thereby we always address God in prayer!

I hope this makes sense.
:rollseyes

:thankyou: Peace.

The reason I brought it up was because people say that they Go straight to G-d but I also have read the scripture, so people actually go through Jesus to G-d. Thats all I wanted to clearify, thats what confused me.

The thing/image that is always brought to my mind is that of:

A place then a gap then another place, we are on one side and G-d is on the other but we cant get to him, it is only through Jesus' stretched arms on the cross that can close the gap act as a bridge which we can take to G-d.

This is the kinda thinking I was adressing thats all, sorry if it felt tidious and like I was nitpickin it is just a point taht has been on my mind alot.

(don't shoot me - I'm only trying to explain what I believe!)

I wont shoot ya, If your just explainin what you believe than its cool, if we are discussing why you believe it then I would ask about it.

[glo]

Like what?

Hi Mara

I think IsaAbdullah may be referring to my comments here (just a few posts before):

Personally, I would describe Catholics as Christians, because they do believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, in his death and ressurection.
Personally I think it is proud and self-righteous thing to assume oneself to be better than another ... because in God's eyes things might look differently. After all, we only see what's on the surface - God sees all the way into our very beings, hearts, and souls!

There are some marked differences between catholicism and protestantism, as I am sure you are aware. The protestant church, when it emerged, had many criticism of how the catholic church had developed over the years ... and many traditions were found unbiblical.
[U]Praying to the saints, the importance of relics and statues in the churches, the power (politically as well as spiritually) that was given to the Pope as the 'representative of God on earth' ... all those things met with Luther's disapproval.[/U]

Blessings. :thankyou:

[Umar001]

Like what?

calling people Father, dont the bible tel ya not to?

[glo]

Im a man of detail lol hehe

No kidding! :giggling:

This is the kinda thinking I was adressing thats all, sorry if it felt tidious and like I was nitpickin it is just a point taht has been on my mind alot.

I wont shoot ya, If your just explainin what you believe than its cool, if we are discussing why you believe it then I would ask about it.

No problems, IsaAbdullah.
You are certainly keeping me on my toes! :rollseyes
I assume that you were a Christian once and converted to Islam ... am I right?

Peace. :)

[Umar001]

No problems, IsaAbdullah.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

You are certainly keeping me on my toes! :rollseyes

Good or bad thing?

I assume that you were a Christian once and converted to Islam ... am I right?

Yep, some would ask you to say reverted, but I aint that picky :giggling: :giggling:

Peace. :)

PEACEEEEEEEEEEEE


*Humms* Like to keep on my toes like a pedicure

[4-Christ-Alone]

Like what?

It seems both religion follows the same book, but have taken certain scriptures in different ways.

I wouldnt ever call my self a catholic, i believe catholics have added to the bible, in adding the 7 scaraments, and revelations says not to add or take away from the word. and i would never go to a priest for forgivness, i would go to Jesus.

God bless :)

[Tania]

calling people Father, dont the bible tel ya not to?

This people would be my father? Could you point me exactly where in the Bible, i can't find it :-[

[Umar001]

i believe catholics have added to the bible, in adding the 7 scaraments, and revelations says not to add or take away from the word.

God bless :)

Wasn't it the other way around bro.

The Catholics cannonised the bible all the books and then later on with the Martin Luther Movement those books were taken away from the Bible.

I remember I had to study him when taking my confirmation of faith.

I think it was then that the books were discarded.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Sorry dude lol, wudnt know, but i do know since i cam on here i still have alot to learn :-)

I like to question my faith, because God has never let a question go un answered yet and i feel a stronger christian having been communicating with atheits and evolutionists and you guys. :-)

God bless

[Umar001]

This people would be my father? Could you point me exactly where in the Bible, i can't find it :-[

Matthew 23:9

And also the things glo posted, with regards to askin saints and so on

[Tania]

Matthew 23:9

And also the things glo posted, with regards to askin saints and so on

"You have one Father" ?
We have only one Holy Father.
Pope Ioannes Paulus PP. II
"Prayer, the community at prayer, enables us always to discover anew the evangelical truth of the words: "You have one Father" (Mt 23:9), the Father—Abba—invoked by Christ himself, the Only-begotten and Consubstantial Son. And again: "You have one teacher, and you are all brethren" (Mt 23:8). "Ecumenical" prayer discloses this fundamental dimension of brotherhood in Christ, who died to gather together the children of God who were scattered, so that in becoming "sons and daughters in the Son" (cf. Eph 1:5) we might show forth more fully both the mysterious reality of God's fatherhood and the truth about the human nature shared by each and every individual."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...m-sint_en.html

[Umar001]

"You have one Father" ?
We have only one Holy Father.
Pope Ioannes Paulus PP. II
"Prayer, the community at prayer, enables us always to discover anew the evangelical truth of the words: "You have one Father" (Mt 23:9), the Father—Abba—invoked by Christ himself, the Only-begotten and Consubstantial Son. And again: "You have one teacher, and you are all brethren" (Mt 23:8). "Ecumenical" prayer discloses this fundamental dimension of brotherhood in Christ, who died to gather together the children of God who were scattered, so that in becoming "sons and daughters in the Son" (cf. Eph 1:5) we might show forth more fully both the mysterious reality of God's fatherhood and the truth about the human nature shared by each and every individual."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...m-sint_en.html

Meaning? :rollseyes

[Woodrow]

While we are on the Subject of the Bible. One of the earliest books to be removed from the Bible was the Gospel of Barnabas. We know that the Early Christians included it and that the Aramaic Church still retains it. It is of interest because it expicitly speaks of the comeing of Mohammad. Barnabas was one of the Apostles of Jesus, there is much written about him in the early bible. It is odd that this Book was one of the first to be removed.

Saint Barnabas is mentioned in the New Testament and he is very well admired too: "For God who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Peter, and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me [Paul] and Barnabas the right hand to fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we [Paul and Barnabas] should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. (The New Testament from the N.I.V Bible, Galatians 2:8-9)"

Saint Barnabas's story in the New Testament begins in Acts 4:36. People often don't know the name of this great Saint. The reason for that is because he lived and dedicated his life to serve others. His real name was Joseph, but the Christians gave him a nickname of "Barnabas" because it meant the "son of encouragement". Barnabas came alongside people in times of challenge and helped them; see Acts 9:10-28 and Acts 15:36-39 for more details.

So in other words, we really should take his Gospel very seriously and consider it too the inspired word of GOD. Since Christians believe in Paul, John, Mark and Matthew as Prophets of GOD, then they should also consider Barnabas as a Prophet too.

Here is a link to the "Gospel of Barnabas"

http://www.answering-christianity.com/barnabas.htm


The Aramaic Bible mentions "Muhammad" as the next Prophet of GOD Almighty

This article was sent to me by brother XXXXXXXXXXXX; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

I was getting shock when I read that "Paraklytos" is actually "Muhammad" in Aramaic - the mother tongue' of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h).




Follow me as we trace the Biblical history of this Greek word "Paraclete". Startling as it may seem, at one time the word read "Periklytos" and "Paraklytos", which is the name for "Muhammad" in Greek. Surprising? It should not be because both words mean "Praised" or "Celebrate," the meaning and character of the man "Muhammad." (1 Jesus in The Qur'an, One World Publications, (c) Geoffrey Parrinder 1965, 1995, ISBN 1-85168-094-2. Knowing this, there is a need for us to study the life of Prophet Muhammad in depth to see if it all stands up. Surprisingly it does.




Allahu Akbar (GOD is Great)!, for the complete explanation by Aramaic Bible Society please visit:

http://www.aramaic.org/PARAVLETE.htmlEDIT NOTE: this is just a link to an English Aramaic dictionary
This proved what has been said by Qur'an:




"Those who follow the apostle the unlettered prophet (prophet Muhammad - p.b.u.h) whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures); in the law (Torah) and the Gospel" (Qur'an 7:157)




According to Holy Qur'an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):




"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)




If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name 'Muhammad' also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16, it looks like this:




"Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow mahamadiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim."






To the reader: Embrace Islam you will be saved!

[Tania]

Meaning? :rollseyes

Don't roll your eyes on me, please.
Now i found something which could clarify better how its our family structure :).
The man and woman were created by God. This entire humankind would not exist without the wish of God. Thats why he is our Holy Father.Off course, after the initial creation the woman and man got power to reproduce themselfs, so we got human parents too :-[. And here it comes our family:

"The Christian family is a communion of persons, a sign and image of the communion of the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. In the procreation and education of children it reflects the Father's work of creation. It is called to partake of the prayer and sacrifice of Christ. Daily prayer and the reading of the Word of God strengthen it in charity. The Christian family has an evangelizing and missionary task. " - 2205 :)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...2c2a4.htm#2214

[Umar001]

The reason I rolled my eyes, pretty nicely too lol :p
was that I dont see anywhere here were it makes it sense to call anyone but the Father, Father.

With regards to the Christian family, well the Christian families father is The Father?

[glo]

Guys, it occurs to me that discussing sectarian issues is against forum rules!
I know we are debating Christianity, but I don't see why the same prinicples should not apply!

In fact, I'm surprised that the moderators have not yet intervened. :rollseyes
Perhaps the moderators can advise?

Peace :thankyou:

[Umar001]

Guys, it occurs to me that discussing sectarian issues is against forum rules!
I know we are debating Christianity, but I don't see why the same prinicples should not apply!

In fact, I'm surprised that the moderators have not yet intervened. :rollseyes
Perhaps the moderators can advise?

Peace :thankyou:

Well personally I am not so much into discussing why the Catholic Church does it, I will ask why anyone does it, it just happens to be that most that do it are from the Catholic Church.

[Woodrow]

Guys, it occurs to me that discussing sectarian issues is against forum rules!
I know we are debating Christianity, but I don't see why the same prinicples should not apply!

In fact, I'm surprised that the moderators have not yet intervened. :rollseyes
Perhaps the moderators can advise?

Peace :thankyou:

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I agree Glo, perhaps a Mod should express a ruling on this. My own personal view is that this does come under the category of comparative religion. While Sectarianism is more in reference to those who would seperate Islam.

[Tania]

Guys, it occurs to me that discussing sectarian issues is against forum rules!
I know we are debating Christianity, but I don't see why the same prinicples should not apply!

In fact, I'm surprised that the moderators have not yet intervened. :rollseyes
Perhaps the moderators can advise?

Peace :thankyou:

The catholic church is not a sect, so we are not discussing here sectarian issues:rollseyes I hope this is more clear now.
The moderators will advice you don't pick one of oldest religion from Earth and call it non christian.Sorry to be so harsh.

[Umar001]

Oldest religions? 2000 or so years aint old is it?

Catholics are Christians! Although In yahoo chat and other palces they have like Christian rooms and then seperate catholic rooms
and i think they do similar in some website for writing what religion you are, Christian and then Catholic lol

Wierd

[Tania]

The reason I rolled my eyes, pretty nicely too lol :p
was that I dont see anywhere here were it makes it sense to call anyone but the Father, Father.

With regards to the Christian family, well the Christian families father is The Father?

I don't want to argue especially when i see you can't or you don't want understand me.
We have a Holly Father - even the muslims recognize His will - please read in Quran 80 :18-19 and 53:45-46.
but we have our biological parents too - named simple mother and father without Holy Father.
I will close here .Finished.

[Tania]

Oldest religions? 2000 or so years aint old is it?

Catholics are Christians! Although In yahoo chat and other palces they have like Christian rooms and then seperate catholic rooms
and i think they do similar in some website for writing what religion you are, Christian and then Catholic lol

Wierd

Well i don't have the pleasure to join the chat rooms so i don't know how are sitting the things but according to my knowledge Christian religion refers to the destruction of the pagan idols and their replacement with the teaching of Christ. I need to do a research and i will tell you exactly which religion are clasified today as christian.

[Umar001]

I don't want to argue especially when i see you can't or you don't want understand me.
We have a Holly Father - even the muslims recognize His will - please read in Quran 80 :18-19 and 53:45-46.
but we have our biological parents too - named simple mother and father without Holy Father.
I will close here .Finished.

Actually, its not that I dont want to understand you I simply don't.

Quran 80: 18-19
YUSUFALI: From a sperm-drop: He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions;
YUSUFALI: Then doth He make His path smooth for him;

Yes this is G-d

I am not debating whether G-d is our father. I agree that THE FATHER that title in the Bible is G-d

But I said, from the start I dont see how people who are not G-d or not your biological father, can be called FATHER, as in Father Thomas or who ever.

This is what I am saying, you have not brought anything, which makes sense of this.

[glo]

The catholic church is not a sect, so we are not discussing here sectarian issues:rollseyes I hope this is more clear now.
The moderators will advice you don't pick one of oldest religion from Earth and call it non christian.Sorry to be so harsh.

Hi Mara

Please don't feel attacked. Nobody should make you feel that way! :-\

The term 'sectarian' refers to denominations, not just sects.

By no means was I calling the catholic church a sect!
I have nothing against Catholics! Many of my friends and family are Catholics.

Please accept my apologies if I have made you feel anything but welcome and respected! :embarrass

Peace.

[Tania]

Please accept my apologies if I have made you feel anything but welcome and respected! :embarrass

Peace.

You should not apologise :-[.I misunderstood.Sorry.

[4-Christ-Alone]

What i have been taught as a christian is that God could not be with sinners, so thats why he had to become us, i.e a man to be in our presence.

I should have look more in sriptures about it by now, but i wll be searching for the answers as of now. :-)

Peace,

Sorry to bring this back up, i said i wud look for scriptures that wud suggest or say Jesus was God in the flesh.

So here i go

If someone came up to you and said praise to you my Lord and God almighty, im sure you would all correct them saying i am not your God or any type of God. Look at what Jesus reponse to when Thomas in John 20:28 said to Jesus My Lord and My God

Jesus said in John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

Now wudnt Jesus correct him in saying he was not God in any shape or form?

Another example in John...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD
John 1:14 AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Not to go offtopic, but can someone tell me what posts you guys want deleted? Regarding the christian sects etc? Just post the post no.s and i'll delete them insha'Allaah (God willing.)



Peace.

[Woodrow]

Hey.


Not to go offtopic, but can someone tell me what posts you guys want deleted? Regarding the christian sects etc? Just post the post no.s and i'll delete them insha'Allaah (God willing.)



Peace.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Just my personal feelings and views. I do not see any post I would desire for you to remove. although the thread seems to have taken many twists and turns, in reality the thread is composed of different views and the subject of the OP does encomess a wide range of subjects.

Just my opinion.

[glo]

Hey.


Not to go offtopic, but can someone tell me what posts you guys want deleted? Regarding the christian sects etc? Just post the post no.s and i'll delete them insha'Allaah (God willing.) Peace.

Hi Fi_Sabilillah

I think it was just me who got worried about causing divisiveness between the Christians in this forum.
If everybody else is happy with the thread, and the mods have no problems with it, then that's fine with me. :)

Thanks! :thankyou:

[- Qatada -]

:wasalamex


Okay, thanks glo and jazak Allaah khayr bro woodrow. If you got anymore problems, just hit the report button insha'Allaah [the red button

]


Peace.

[Umar001]

Sorry to bring this back up, i said i wud look for scriptures that wud suggest or say Jesus was God in the flesh.

Don't be!

Sorry if my response took some time, I'm trying to do lots of things at once lol.

If someone came up to you and said praise to you my Lord and God almighty, im sure you would all correct them saying i am not your God or any type of God.

I sure would!

Look at what Jesus reponse to when Thomas in John 20:28 said to Jesus My Lord and My God

I think maybe it would be best of I quoted it because we have non-Christians who may not know the scripture, I hope thats ok, plus it should show us the context.

John 20:28

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

So most people that tell me this, I ask, If someone you thought was dead, walked in a Room after 3 days and 3 nights, having wholes where he was wounded, a person you love, you grieved because you thought he died but he walks in with wounds on him, what would you say? I know I would say 'Oh My G-d, Lord have mercy!' Or something.

I watched one of those cops shows, and this woman approached an undercover cop who she thought was a hit man and asked him to perfom a hit on her husband, basically they then staged a hit, she was then asked to go to the police station to give some details, and then the police brought her pretty much alive husband infront of her, the one she 'saw dead'.

She sat there screaming something like 'Oh Lord, Oh My God' for a couple of minutes.

Now do we honestly think, that she thought he was her G-d??

Its a phrase. Think about how many times someone has brought yu bad news and you said to them "Oh My G-d!"

...Jesus said in John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

Ok, lets see the context, what was it that Thomas had believed?

For the benefit of those without a bible I will paste some previous verses to give us an insight:

John 20:24-25

Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

So we see, the disciples saw Jesus, as they believe resurected this was a big thing since they all believed Jesus had died. But Thomas said I will not believe, believe what??? That he had resurected, so when Jesus comes back to them in the room a week later in front of Thomas, Thomas now believes that Jesus was alive, thus Jesus says

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

It is simple, Thomas saw Jesus and believed in the that he was alive again, so blessed is he who doesnt see Jesus but believes, in what, his resurection.

Lets look at who Peter believed Jesus to be which should clear things up:
Matthew 16:15-16

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Which is pretty different from saying He is G-d. Without any preconditioning we can see the exclamation of Thomas was of surprise, if we take it all into context.

Now wudnt Jesus correct him in saying he was not God in any shape or form?

He sure would, but as context shows Thomas said 'My Lord and My G-d' as most of us do, in surprise, Jesus didnt correct him, because as most of us when we tell someone something and they say Oh My G-d, we realise they aint caling us G-d but are expressing their suprise.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD
John 1:14 AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

'And the word was with G-d (ho theos) and the word was G-d (ton theos)

In the greek the words used for 'the word was with G-d' is different from the other 'the word was G-d' see. The second word, which describes Jesus as G-d is also used to describe Satan believe it or not as G-d, in 2 Corinthians 4:4

"the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not."

Does this mean Satan is G-d too?

In the bible there are places where other being except Almighty G-d are called G-d, or are said to be made like G-d, but this is only to show the authority they have been allowed.

Psalms 82:6

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High"

Exodus 7:1

"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh"

But we all agree that these are not G-d.

Also notice although the same greek word is used, 2 Corithians 4:4 says 'a god' small letters and everything and John 1:1 says God.

The bias of translators. :heated:

Peace

Peace be upon you too.

May Jesus son of Mary be immune to any lies ascribed to him by Muslims or Christians and may peace from the Almighty G-d be upon him and his mother.

Ameen.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Isa, maybe ur taking it in the context you want to believe rather than what it is, Just because people use oh my God or something like that 2day in surprise, doesnt mean to say Thomas used it this was.

Also Thomas said My Lord, ""AND"" my God. remeber Thomas would have loved Jesus, and seeing him again would have been amazing, like if a small child sees there mum for the first time after a while apart, they run up shouting MUM, just like thomas could have said to Jesus My lord and my God after seeing him.

[Umar001]

I agree, it coule be either of the two

And if we look at it from the context of the rest of the scripture it is more likely to be an exclamation of surprise.

If a child saw its mother who the child thought to be dead it is possible the child would say Oh My G-d.

most people would agree that they have said similar things, to base Jesus to be G-d on something that is likely to be someone's surpise statement is like saying, I am blapheming if I say Oh My God Lord have mercy when someone brings me bad news.

It sounds like hopeful wishing, i think its noticeable that a preconditioned mind needs to be there in order to accept this is Thomas asserting divinity

[4-Christ-Alone]

If a child saw its mother who the child thought to be dead it is possible the child would say Oh My G-d.

I depends on the child, it is also possible that Thomas was not surprised, he had been told by his close friends jesus was alive, so he wouldnt have beens as surprised if know one else had told him.

I also believe that Thomas would not have said My lord "AND" my God if he was surprised, it doesnt sound to me like a suprise, My Lord alone or My God alone i agree sounds more of a surprise reaction, but to me, the AND is the key word.

I believe the OT and the NT was all writen by annointed men of God under the influence of the holy spirit. And i believe Thomas's words in his reaction was put there for a reason, i dnt think his reaction was of surprise, but of joy for seeing his Lord and God again.

You also cant assume people reacted in surprise bcak then, with the same words as we do. But what we do know is that is they used Lord and God when talking to him. :-)

Peace

[Umar001]

I depends on the child, it is also possible that Thomas was not surprised, he had been told by his close friends jesus was alive, so he wouldnt have beens as surprised if know one else had told him.

Ok, lets break it down, you agree that we cant know for sure if this was suprise or not.

So we should look into the context, he believe Jesus to be dead, the people told them he wasnt but he didnt believe them hence the name doubting Thomas. So he would be suprised, because he didn't believe them.

And since the disciple Peter the Rock, actually when asked by Jesus as to who he thought Jesus was never said G-d, we can kinda see that at least he didnt believe Jesus to be G-d, Peter the Rock.

It kinda fits that Thomas was suprised. Moving on..

I also believe that Thomas would not have said My lord "AND" my God if he was surprised, it doesnt sound to me like a suprise, My Lord alone or My God alone i agree sounds more of a surprise reaction, but to me, the AND is the key word.

You also cant assume people reacted in surprise bcak then, with the same words as we do.

So if we cant be totally sure then, the and isn't that much of an importance, could jus be a different style.

I believe the OT and the NT was all writen by annointed men of God under the influence of the holy spirit. And i believe Thomas's words in his reaction was put there for a reason, i dnt think his reaction was of surprise, but of joy for seeing his Lord and God again.

Ok, nice thought though it doesnt seem to go with the context of scripture.

If it is possible bro, name me the authors who you believe to be annointed men of G-d. I would like to read into their lives and see if they lived upto that title.

But what we do know is that is they used Lord and God when talking to him. :-)

A couple of other men were called lord to.
Who called Jesus G-d when talking to him?


The thing that just amazes me is that, Jesus' divinity is claimed from an instance in which most people would be in a state of suprise and would have said the same thing to any other human being.

Thats the proof for Jesus being G-d?

And yet when other disciples were asked by Jesus himself at a time of calmness and where no confusion in words could occour they didnt say he was G-d.

Anyhow, Peace be upon ya and your house hold.

Eesa

[4-Christ-Alone]

we can kinda see that at least he didnt believe Jesus to be G-d, Peter the Rock.

Jesus asked who do the people say i am, i think paul replied some say your a prohpet, and Jesus said who do you think i am, paul replied the messiah. No not God, i dont know the exact meaning of messiah.

It kinda fits that Thomas was suprised. Moving on..

People take it the way they want it i guess.

Ok, nice thought though it doesnt seem to go with the context of scripture.

Could u explain? ok so the scriptures tells us thomas needed to see Jesus to believe he was risen, but it still does not mean his reply was of surprise, there cud have been a surprise reaction, then these words to him acknowledging his Lord.

Like i said, for me its the AND, say it to yourself as if u were surprised, my lord and my God, it sounds to me more of an acknowlegdment rather than of surprise, and even if he did say it as a surprise, why would the words be there to confuse people?

Your right in saying if i thought some1 to be dead and seen them i would be surprised and probubly frightened, but in Gods presence there is no fear, this is another reason i think it was not surprise, i think u wud agree if Gid himself appeared to us, we would fall down from his glory and say My God or My Lord. or even My Lord and My God

[Umar001]

How about, cos we going off topic, make a thread post your views and why you believe that this verse of Thomas' proves Jesus is G-d and so on, but speak with the fellow Christians also before you post, take your time, I will take my time too, lol i normally do sorry about that, nd I will post what I see it as and why and then we view each others points ask any relevant questions and see how it goes, what we like of each others point we take and what we disagree on we leave behind.

Peace be upon ya

[4-Christ-Alone]

ok mate, awsome

God bless

[bint_muhammed]

im sorry when did i say this? God can forgive us if we accept jesus because jesus died for the sins, but he will only forgive us if we are truely sorry and willing to repent. God knows everything and he obviously knows if we are sorry or not. only by accepting Christ can we be forgiven. at no point did i say Jesus us makes it ok to carry on sinning.



You say we worship the same God, but i disagree, my Gods loves us enough to send a saviour, your God has not done this. Correct me if im wrong.

God bless

look your getting this wrong our God isnt going to send us anyone to die fro us so our sins are forgiven, however he has sent us prophets so they can guide us on the right path! when we sin and are truly sorry for it (and Allah will know) he will forgive us only if we repent however if we dont we will be punished! Allah punishing someone for sinning, isnt wrong as he's our creater and has given us many chances in this world to put our wrongs right! sometimes you have to cruel to be kind!
hope it makes sense
peace!

[Woodrow]

One of the greatest difficulties we have in understanding the Bible is that the words are now in fairly modern English. Just using the words god and lord in that posting about Thomas. We are using what seems to be the closest English definition. But, to be more accurate we would have to go back to the Original Aramaic and understand what was meant and translated into God and Lord. Sadly I do not have any Aramaic text of that particular book. However, possibly some one here does. I do have the Greek text, but that is not the same. Reading the Greek Text in John 20-24 I am coming across something quite different. Perhaps I am reading the wrong verse or my Greek isn't very good.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Hey i dont know how to post a new thread so i will post this here and yous can maybe move it? I asked some Questions and found...


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

[Woodrow]

Hey i dont know how to post a new thread so i will post this here and yous can maybe move it? I asked some Questions and found...


Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

"Only God could take on the sins of the world" I believe we can agree on that sentence.

I also think we can agree that God(swt) is omnipotent and can do all things with just a thought. He only needs to will it and it is done.

[Crescent]

Dont you guys think that we are going off topic.

But personally, I believe there isnt concrete evidence in the Bible that states Jesus was the son of God.

Peace.

[rubiesand]

But, to be more accurate we would have to go back to the Original Aramaic and understand what was meant and translated into God and Lord. Sadly I do not have any Aramaic text of that particular book. However, possibly some one here does. I do have the Greek text, but that is not the same.

Yes, but wouldn't an Aramaic Gospel have been translated from the Greek? So one can never go back to the original Aramaic since the oldest Gospels are in Greek?

[Woodrow]

Yes, but wouldn't an Aramaic Gospel have been translated from the Greek? So one can never go back to the original Aramaic since the oldest Gospels are in Greek?

The oldest known intact gospels are in Greek. But, that was not the original language.

Nope the original Gospels were in Aramaic. It was Paul who brought them to Greece and they were translated into Greek from the Aramaic. Very few remnants of the original Aramaic exist. What is interesting is one Gospel that was not translated into Greek at that time "The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

[4-Christ-Alone]

The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

Woodrow do u know exactly when this gospel was written? i dont know my slef? but when i went to find out some1 told me hundreds of years after barnabus died? is there factual on this?

But personally, I believe there isnt concrete evidence in the Bible that states Jesus was the son of God.

Dude didnt u read what i said?

[4-Christ-Alone]

The Gospel of Barnabas" is still intact. However most Christians deny that it was a true Gospel as among other things it specificaly talks about the coming of Mohammad by name and also says Jesus did not die on the cross, but was carried to heaven.

I dont know what you guys think if this, it basically tell when the gospel was written, and that most academics believe it to be fraud, and some believe it to be early biblical but edtied to suit muslims. here is the adress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

God bless

[Paul Williams]

I believe he is so righteous he cant be in the presence of sin, and the blood of Jesus washes that sin away.

Salam to you.

Where is God? He is everywhere, so he must be in the presence of sin!

Also, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth (who according to Marks gospel said to the rich young man who called him 'good teacher' - "why do you call me good, there is only One who is good"), this same Jesus you claim to be God Almighty and thus cannot be in the presence of sin - he is clearly portrayed as mixing with 'sinners' and prostitutes and tax collectors!

Bilal:)

[iLL_LeaT]

Sorry what i mean is, i think God HAS to punish evil, and he loves us to much to punish us, so he sent Jesus to take it. And yes i believe God forgives any sin throught Jesus. Exept speaking against the holy spirit of course as that says thats the only unforgivable sin.

I have a question, who is the creator of evil?

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a chose to pick between right and wrong. And God himself created that chose. So did God create evil?

Please don’t say Lucifer created evil, it’s very cliché. And the story says God crated Lucifer even though he is all knowing. Moreover, Lucifer is known as being created in the middle ages by the Catholic Church.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Where is God? He is everywhere, so he must be in the presence of sin!

Also, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth (who according to Marks gospel said to the rich young man who called him 'good teacher' - "why do you call me good, there is only One who is good"), this same Jesus you claim to be God Almighty and thus cannot be in the presence of sin - he is clearly portrayed as mixing with 'sinners' and prostitutes and tax collectors!

Yes mate i meant to correct that 2day, forgive me for being ignorant to this subject, i was quoting what i had been told b4 without checking but heres what i found out about it.

I have a question, who is the creator of evil?

The Bible nowhere says that God cannot be in the presence of sin. God is omnipresent - present everywhere at all times. God is always therefore in the presence of sin.

At first it might seem that if God created all things then evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.



Perhaps a further illustration will help. If I were to ask the average person "does cold exist?" - his/her answer would likely be yes. However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

Look at the example of Job in Job chapters 1-2. Satan wanted to destroy Job, and God allowed Satan to do everything but kill Job. God allowed this to happen to prove to Satan that Job was righteous because he loved God, not because God had blessed him so richly. God is sovereign and ultimately in control of everything that happens. Satan cannot do anything unless he has God's "permission." God did not create evil, but He allows evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their "programming." God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether we wanted to serve Him or not.

[Woodrow]

I dont know what you guys think if this, it basically tell when the gospel was written, and that most academics believe it to be fraud, and some believe it to be early biblical but edtied to suit muslims. here is the adress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

God bless

What is interesting is I've had Christian Ministers tell me that Mohammad copied the Qur'an from the Barnabas Gospel. I believe that was a common refutation of Mohammad at one time. I first heard of it in comparative religion classes a long time ago.

I think the best source we may be able to find will be in looking into the History of the Coptic Christians as I am certain that they have retained the Coptic Gospel although they may consider it to be uninspired. I will look further and see what else I can find.

[Paul Williams]

Yes mate i meant to correct that 2day, forgive me for being ignorant to this subject, i was quoting what i had been told b4 without checking but heres what i found out about it.

No problems, brother. I quoted some verses from Mark's gospel in my last post: 'a young ruler comes up to Jesus and says "good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers him by saying, "why do you call me good? No-one is good except God alone. You know the commandments..." Jesus then proceeds to quote the commandments God gave to Moses.

Two questions for you:

1) You believe Jesus is God Almighty, but in this passage Jesus clearly distinguishes between himself and God.

2) The way to salvation according to Jesus in this passage lies with obeying the 10 commandments.

I would guess that your theology sits very uncomfortably with Jesus' teaching at this point. Could it be that Islam is right?

Bilal:)

[Woodrow]

From the website you linked to"

A "Gospel according to Barnabas" is mentioned in two early Christian lists of apocryphal works: the Decretum Gelasianum (whose attribution to Pope Gelasius I, 492-496 CE is apocryphal but which is no later than the 6th century), as well as the 7th-century List of the Sixty Books [1]. These lists are independent witnesses, but in neither case is it sure that the compiler had actually seen all the listed works. In both cases, GoB is paired by juxtaposition with a Gospel of Matthias (presumed to refer to a surviving Traditions of Matthias.) However, these lists provide no details about the contents of the work, and there is no reason to assume that the text of the 6th-7th century GoB was the same as this one. M. R. James, New Testament Apocrypha (1924) disputed whether the work mentioned in those lists ever existed.

Keep in mind the Qur'an was not revealed until the 7th Century and did not come to be very well know by people outside of Saudi Arabia until about the 9th century.

Not total proof but evidence it existed priot to the Qur'an and was already removed by the Catholics.

[4-Christ-Alone]

1) You believe Jesus is God Almighty, but in this passage Jesus clearly distinguishes between himself and God.

2) The way to salvation according to Jesus in this passage lies with obeying the 10 commandments

I will reply to these tomor, tired and got work tomorow. And could you explain more what u mean by 2.)

God bless

[Paul Williams]

I will reply to these tomor, tired and got work tomorow. And could you explain more what u mean by 2.)

God bless

Perhaps presumptuously, I assume you are an evangelical Christian. So I see a problem for you in some of Jesus' teaching. I have come to the conclusion through a careful study of the NT that Jesus in Mark's gospel did not teach justification by faith. That doctrine was invented by Paul (who never met Jesus incidentally). In a number of places in the synoptic gospels Jesus teaches a very different doctrine. If you want quotes I'll happily supply them.

So when I say The way to salvation according to Jesus in this passage lies with obeying the 10 commandments I mean just that, and not the later invented teaching of Paul. Most Christians today, in my view, follow Paul not Jesus. Muslims follow the teaching of the historic Jesus of Nazareth

I look forward to your reply!

Bilal:)

[4-Christ-Alone]

You believe Jesus is God Almighty, but in this passage Jesus clearly distinguishes between himself and God.

Ok you could say that you are correct in what you say i dont know anough about that, But that compared to the things i pointed out doesnt really convince me, read back and see again, i think its quite clear :-) .

So when I say The way to salvation according to Jesus in this passage lies with obeying the 10 commandments I mean just that, and not the later invented teaching of Paul. Most Christians today, in my view, follow Paul not Jesus. Muslims follow the teaching of the historic Jesus of Nazareth

Correct me if i am wrong, but are u saying Jesus was teaching that the 10 commandments alone lead to salvation? The NT teaches that Jesus is the only way to the father, by accepting him as saviour you recieve eternal life, but salvation doesnt stop at Just accepting him, its folllowing him, and following Jesus is obeying the 10 commandments. If i have misunderstood what u meant please correct me.

Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, and no-one can get to the father except through me.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

it cleary teachs Jesus is the way to eternal life and God, and like i said, if your following Jesus your obeying the 10 commandments.

God bless

[Paul Williams]

"Ok you could say that you are correct in what you say i dont know anough about that, But that compared to the things i pointed out doesnt really convince me, read back and see again, i think its quite clear :-)"

I'm confused about what you are saying here. My point was that Jesus, in this passage, obviously does not claim to be God. On the contrary.

"Correct me if i am wrong, but are u saying Jesus was teaching that the 10 commandments alone lead to salvation? The NT teaches that Jesus is the only way to the father, by accepting him as saviour you recieve eternal life, but salvation doesn't stop at Just accepting him, its following him, and following Jesus is obeying the 10 commandments. If i have misunderstood what u meant please correct me."

What I am saying is that the teaching of Jesus about justification by faith is very different from that of Paul (which most Christians follow). In answer to a question about what must one do to be saved Jesus points to the 10 commandments! Paul never ever did that! Would 3 more examples make it clearer?

My question is this: how is a sinner justified before God? Now will you except what Jesus says or what Paul says?

Look up Luke 18:9-14 - because of the man's humility he went home justified before God according to Jesus

look up Luke 19:1-10 the account of Zacchaeus the tax collector. In verse 10 Jesus says salvation has come to this house. Why? because Z. gives half of his possessions to the poor, again according to Jesus

lastly look at Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep & the goats. what is the criterion for salvation here? Upon what basis do people go to heaven or hell? It all depends if they visited the sick, clothed the naked etc. according to Jesus. Not justification by faith alone - Pauls doctrine.

there are many other verses like this in Matthew, Mark and Luke. (I omit John from this because most biblical experts do not believe the historical Jesus said all the words attributed to him there).

Jesus' teaching is very Islamic. We are saved by the mercy of God and our good works. Thats what Jesus taught (same in the letter of St James too - we are saved by faith & works).

Paul was a maverick who never new Jesus, & constantly clashed with the head of the church in Jerusalem - James. The sorry tale is all in Acts...

[4-Christ-Alone]

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

Ok first, when looking at mathew there i came across this? and i wondered if the bible taught prophets to have a throne of glory? or any1 other than God? I havnt been a christian long and havnt studied all the bible yet so i wondered if you would know? The Son of Man is Jesus i believe and this verse says he will be on a throne of Glory. Why?

lastly look at Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep & the goats. what is the criterion for salvation here? Upon what basis do people go to heaven or hell? It all depends if they visited the sick, clothed the naked etc

Dude, I your maybe taking this the wrong way, Jesus was a loving man who help sick, who welcomed people, and gave them food etc etc, if your following Jesus you will do these things, Jesus's followers are called the body of Christ. Look at our body for example, there is different parts of the body used for different things, same with the body of Christ, there christians used in many different things, with homeless, sick, working in prisons, i could go on all day! we are all the body working together for christ, and i think this is what he meant by that!

You say Paul never knew Jesus, maybe not on earth but i know Jesus even 2day.

And could you qoute things that paul said that went against Jesus.

Cheers mate

God bless

[bint_muhammed]

I have no problem with repeating that. I was born Roman Catholic in a very deeply devout family. I was raised as all good Catholic boys should be, Catechism, Alter boy latter CYO. When got older Joined the Kof C, Sacred Heart Society and the rest. Had intended to be a Priest. Went into the Military first. For various reasons because of my 2 different Military experiences I got to learn several Languages and visit many countries. During this time several things happened.
I was severaly injured, spent a year in a body cast
I had to reconsider my choice of careers as it was obvious a physical career was now out of the question. I came across a religious impasse and had a question of faith. I converted to Buddhism, although in reality I was an agnostic.

I began my academic life, first love was in Engineering, pursued that then decided I wanted more. I was more interested in Philosophy, Linguistics, culture, and biology. Started my new life on the road to be either a Biologist or Psychologist. Settled on physiological psychology.

well long path, many countries visited, several languages learned. Lots of religous studies in several comparative religion courses.

Then the tragedy of life began hitting. My second wife passed away, various financial problems and I lost every possession I had ever owned and was left unemployable, savings whiped out, only income a few dollars a month from the USAF for service connected disability.

I began reading the Qur'an in Arabic again. I had not even looked at it in almost 30 years. My intent was to refresh my Arabic skills and get my mind off my problems. somewhere I became totaly engrossed in the Qur'an I realised I was not reading it, I was feeling it. I really do not know how long I read, but I know I read it at least 2 times non stop and I was overcome with a feeling of total peace and knew everything would be alright. I knew at that moment I was Muslim. I said my Shahadah then and there. That Friday I found the closest Mosque, which was 60 miles from me, got a ride to it and repeated the Shahadah at the Mosque.

Feel more peace comfort and joy now then I ever have.

wow! thats sooo beaytiful!:brother:

[bint_muhammed]

sorry for the spelling above!

[Woodrow]

sorry for the spelling above!

Asalaamu Alaikum Ukhti,

I didn't notice your spelling. The Teacher that taught me spelling was probably Miss Spelling.

[Paul Williams]

"I havnt been a christian long and havnt studied all the bible yet so i wondered if you would know? The Son of Man is Jesus i believe and this verse says he will be on a throne of Glory. Why?

And could you qoute things that paul said that went against Jesus."


Sorry, I didn't realise you were a new Christan. I have no desire to get all theological and heavy with you. Just read your Bible as I'm sure you are doing and keep your head screwed on! Take care...

Salam

[Quruxbadaan]

I See you all woner wat sins are unforgiven to your God? I am new to the muslim faith and i dont ever intend to follow it. I am a firm believer in Christ Jesus, and that he was the son of God and the saviour to all men.

Im sure most of you know the basis of christianity, we believe our God is the true living God as do you, and that our God is all perfect and sinless, that he cannot look upon sin, guess what man sinned! Oh no boy are we in trouble? going agaisnt an all mighty God who quite frankly, alough he is loving and merciful, has to punish. But God said to himself, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son (John 3:16), that whoever believed in his name, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

So anyway back to the point, if a man rapes a woman, shud the court say, ""there is no punishment for this crime if u say u will repent from it"" no! thats not acceptable, the man should be punished. So what i am asking is, does allah punish sin? if he does, we are all in big trouble and hes not a merciful God, but if he doesnt, ow can a God so good look upon unclean souls as us men? Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

Asalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Allah SWT is most merciful lord of the universse
To me it isnt about ur god or my god and whoes god loves what
there is ONLY 1 god thats my oppinion tho
People are judged by their actions and deeds and their taqwaa (fear of allah) for me theres nobody who took or will take or will be punished for what i do
should i choose to turn to Allah to repent he is the all merciful and the forgiver (Allahu Alim) should i chose not to repent i will suffer for my sins and actions
its very simple to me theres nothing complicated about it
you do the crime you do the crime suga

[Quruxbadaan]

ohhh ohhh sory sorry i ment time

hah haha ha

its supposed to be
u do the crime
u do the time

couldnt get it the first time

p.s woodrow masha allah that was a inspiring story of ur reversion to Islam may allah keep ur feet firm in this deen

[Umar001]

I still think theres alot of people talking to one guy, one guy thats new at his faith too.

Sean, for the Thomas thing we will take time on it for us both to learn more if you want, personally I think we should.

Also bro, careful answeing so many questions is confusing lol

Peace

[bint_muhammed]

Asalaamu Alaikum Ukhti,

I didn't notice your spelling. The Teacher that taught me spelling was probably Miss Spelling.

lol!;D

[4-Christ-Alone]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were a new Christan. I have no desire to get all theological and heavy with you. Just read your Bible as I'm sure you are doing and keep your head screwed on! Take care...

Dude dont worry about that, u havnt stumpted me yet alough i am new, and i am learning more and more as i discuss things on here. so feel free to coment on my last post and the question i asked.

And also could u post some verses about pauls teachings being different to Jesus', Could you make an example mate?

I also came across something paul wrote in 1 corinthians 12:5 where it says, "There are different ways of serving, and yet the same Lord is served, There a different types of work to do, but the same God produces every gift in every person"

So when Jesus said the stuff about when i was hungry u fed me, when i was in prison u visited me, this verse relates to that, Christians are used in many different things serving the same God.

God bless

[Crescent]

Why would anybody waste their time reading the trash "Buy-bull?"

[4-Christ-Alone]

Why would anybody waste their time reading the trash "Buy-bull?"

Why not?

And why wud u show this disrespect?

[Umar001]

I think Cresent will be terminated soon!

[Paul Williams]

"And also could u post some verses about Paul's teachings being different to Jesus', Could you make an example mate?"

Sorry, but I have given you several examples from Jesus teaching. I had assumed you were familiar with St Paul's teaching too about justification by faith, but as a new Christian you may not be familiar with all the NT yet.

Which is fine

I'm not going to proof text here. If you read Paul's letter to the Romans all the way through and then read his letter to the Galatians you might see the issues I'm talking about. Which is why i suggested we all continue to study the New Testament with our eyes open ;)

[4-Christ-Alone]

Sorry, but I have given you several examples from Jesus teaching. I had assumed you were familiar with St Paul's teaching too about justification by faith, but as a new Christian you may not be familiar with all the NT yet.

No mate u didnt post any, You posted one about Jesus and i answered it. and u didnt reply to that answer. its just if u say stuff like that then you should at least give 1 example.

That doctrine was invented by Paul (who never met Jesus incidentally). In a number of places in the synoptic gospels Jesus teaches a very different doctrine. If you want quotes I'll happily supply them.

You say here Jesus teachs a different doctrine from paul. and you would be happy to quote some, and you also said u close studied the NT so they should come from the top of your head :-).

So if u can show me an example of how Jesus teachings is different from pauls i would be greatful.

God bless

[Paul Williams]

Sorry my friend, I gave several examples. We are going round in circles here and I feel its too much effort to move forward. That's enough for me! Bye & good luck

Salam

[4-Christ-Alone]

[QUOTE]Sorry my friend, we are going round in circles here. Thats enough for me! Bye

Salam[QUOTE]

lol, dear dear dear!

Nice speaking to u

God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

But can i suggest Paul, in future it would be better to back up what u say about faults in the bible. It will save people doubting what u have claimed, when you decide to stop the convo when asked about it :-)

God bless mate

[Paul Williams]

OK I'll try and remember that

[Umar001]

Lol I cant help but laugh.

its true.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Man im lost in this forum, i cant remeber where we started lol

[Umar001]

Man im lost in this forum, i cant remeber where we started lol

Lol Thats why I kinda tried to tell everyone to lay off a little.

It didnt seem like anyone was gettin much

People questioning and one person answering.

Maybe people did get answers I dont know, I jus know I get confused when too many people ask me something at once and hardly anyone truly benefits.

[4-Christ-Alone]

yes well so far i have learned a geat deal on this forum, but ive been on every yopic nealry lol, i am learnign to study the bible more and i am finding out more and more and its awsome :)

[Umar001]

so break down for me what new things you have learnt Sean.
I might learn something

[4-Christ-Alone]

so break down for me what new things you have learnt Sean.
I might learn something

Well when i first came on, i had not checked what i had been taught, and it proved to be wrong, so firstly i learned to check things for insitnce in the bible before making a point.

Secondly, i have learned to not check for truth in what im saying, but study Gods word for even more truth about topics.

Thirdly, if someone has come with me with a question, at first i think wait a minute they could be right, then i pray for an answer, and not yet has a question gone unanswered.

Since i started communicating with atheists, and muslims and evoltionists, it challenged my faith, questions ad been asked of me i thought would be impossible to answer, but answers have been given in one way or another. So through this forum and through the past few months looking into other believes, i have learned alot, and came through a stronger christian than i have even been.

God bless

[Umar001]

yep kinda knw what u mean

well as long as you feel your learnin and your happy then I guess thats it.

[4-Christ-Alone]

yeh m8, so yoyr an ex christian? or u not want to go there now?

[Umar001]

Yesh and are you askin if I want to go into the story?

lol I havent much time now days and when I do get on I never seem to know what I have to do, :(

Peace

[Tania]

Yesh and are you askin if I want to go into the story?

lol I havent much time now days and when I do get on I never seem to know what I have to do, :(

Peace

If you follow Jesus Christ , you can't say ex christian :-[You are still christian:)

[Umar001]

What does the word Christian mean?

[Tania]

What does the word Christian mean?

following the teaching of Jesus Christ :-[

[Umar001]

Im guessing that that is a guess. lol

[Tania]

"Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.""
from: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...s1c2a3.htm#108

[AvarAllahNoor]

" but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.""
]

This the exact thing us Sikhs believe of our scriptures :)

[Umar001]

"Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.""
from: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...s1c2a3.htm#108

Why did G-d create us with closed minds?

[4-Christ-Alone]

Yesh and are you askin if I want to go into the story?

If u can be bothered. lol.

Im interested to hear what brought u to christianity, what experiences u had through it and why u changed.

God bless

[Umar001]

I have most of this week off, so if I can get round to it I will write something with regards to my contact with Christianity.

Summer is also coming so I should be more free to write in-depth type of stuff, instead of a paragraph in response :p

[4-Christ-Alone]

awsome mate,theres no rush.

God bless.

Sean

[Quruxbadaan]

Salaam

Wow we got some real lectures on our hands

this thread is starting to feel like a sunday sermon at a local church

what was the whole topic of this thread again ????????

Peace

[Umar001]

Salaam

Wow we got some real lectures on our hands

this thread is starting to feel like a sunday sermon at a local church

what was the whole topic of this thread again ????????

Peace

Well sis, if you would zoom at the topic title, it states, 'sinning'.

And The 1st poster was askin with regards to the islamic view or something.

[sevgi]

Salaam

Wow we got some real lectures on our hands

this thread is starting to feel like a sunday sermon at a local church

what was the whole topic of this thread again ????????

Peace

this may be received as offending sister:)

[sevgi]

...regardless of the word "peace" at the end.:)

[Quruxbadaan]

Salaam

Thannx Issaabdullah I knew that what i meant was that this is waaaaaaayyyyy off topic now ( in my own way)

And Sister sumeya i dont understand why that would be offensive???
i dont sugar coat things .......if thats what u are looking for...

Maa Salaama

[Quruxbadaan]

P.s

Issaabdullah the first post was 13 pages ago .....just to emphasize my point

[Tania]

This the exact thing us Sikhs believe of our scriptures :)

I don't know anything about Sikhs. I will read the thread.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I don't know anything about Sikhs. I will read the thread.

Thought i'd provide the link :)

http://allaboutsikhs.com/basics/intro-03.htm

[*Hana*]

And also could u post some verses about pauls teachings being different to Jesus', Could you make an example mate?

I just came across this and if you want to see a few examples of Paul's teachings differing from that of Jesus, pbuh, you can go to this thread, post number 25, as it has been discussed already:

CLICK HERE

Peace,
Hana

[Umar001]

why that would be offensive???
i dont sugar coat things

I have jus kinda come back after a couple of days so im not sure where im staiding but anyhow.

I think the bit about sunday sermon at the church, part was mento be the offending bit thought I dont get what was ment by it.

[Quruxbadaan]

I have jus kinda come back after a couple of days so im not sure where im staiding but anyhow.



I dont get what was ment by it.

Than maybe u should hold ur thought!

Now if u dont get what was ment by my statement how can u say it was meant to offend

ARE U SEEING HOW WRONG THAT SOUNDS????

[Umar001]

Than maybe u should hold ur thought!

Now if u dont get what was ment by my statement how can u say it was meant to offend

ARE U SEEING HOW WRONG THAT SOUNDS????

I am saying, that the part about the sunday church thing was maybe seen as offending, Not by me, I didnt say it was but I was saying maybe it was something to do with that that people saw offensive, even though I dont know what it means.

So I dont think it sounds wrong what I said.

[bint_muhammed]

okay people lets get back to the actual topic being discussed here!

[Umar001]

okay people lets get back to the actual topic being discussed here!

Theres still a topic?

[Isa Abdullah]

I See you all woner wat sins are unforgiven to your God? I am new to the muslim faith and i dont ever intend to follow it. I am a firm believer in Christ Jesus, and that he was the son of God and the saviour to all men.

Im sure most of you know the basis of christianity, we believe our God is the true living God as do you, and that our God is all perfect and sinless, that he cannot look upon sin, guess what man sinned! Oh no boy are we in trouble? going agaisnt an all mighty God who quite frankly, alough he is loving and merciful, has to punish. But God said to himself, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son (John 3:16), that whoever believed in his name, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now this makes sense to me, but this is not why i choose to follow christ, i like the story of superman but i dnt follow him, i decided to follow christ when he called me and i felt that supernatural feeling as accepting him as my lord and saviour and the son of God, Now any1 can say what they want about God or Jesus, about if they exsist, or who they really were, but no1 can ever take away the feelings and emotions Jesus has given me over my time as a christian, no1 can take away my testimony.

So anyway back to the point, if a man rapes a woman, shud the court say, ""there is no punishment for this crime if u say u will repent from it"" no! thats not acceptable, the man should be punished. So what i am asking is, does allah punish sin? if he does, we are all in big trouble and hes not a merciful God, but if he doesnt, ow can a God so good look upon unclean souls as us men? Jesus paid the punishment, My God loves me, and every1 of you, despite what u believe, forgive me for preaching. Take care! :-)

bismillah

greetings, 4CA

Number one. I will not delve into a debate about salvation. And to speak of Christianity as it alleviates one's spirit. That is futile, solely because a non-believer in Christianity cannot feel it. You can not preach on an emotional basis.

Number two. If one commits a crime and they are punished in this world and do not repent they will recieve in the hereafter what they have sown in this worldy life. Allaah (ta'ala) is the most merciful, He provides for the Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. Is your reasoning of God superior to the reasoning of others? No it is not.

No person will bear the burden of another is what it says in the Book of Ezekiel. According to the Jewish Bible, and the Qur'an is explicit on the purity and essence of God and the deeds we do. We will answer for them and those who disbelieve, if it is Allaah (swt) will be in the hellfire.

Peace.

[4-Christ-Alone]

just out of interest does islam believe in the OT? as the word of God?

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

greetings,

Muslims, believe that their were original messages that were given to all the prophets (pbut) of all nations. Some came with merely oral messages, others came with books. The Jewish Bible as we have today as well as the NT are not considered the pure revelations they once were. They were filtered through the minds of men. Thus if it contains the prejudices and thoughts of man, it is not perfect, it is not a Holy revelation from the Most High.

You must understand that whatever contradicts the message of the Qur'an is to be rejected in its entirety. Me personally, I study the NT and the Pentatech to understand the beliefs of my brothers. However, Muslims refer only to the Qur'an. We hear and we obey, there is no guidance better that the guidance of Allaah (ta'ala) and HIS final messenger Muhammad ibn Abdullah (saw).

However, the point is there are arguments in which we can dispute, in your own book...the Bible. The point is why do you choose to complicate the simple message of God Almighty???

"Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than allah. Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from allah. but allah is not unmindful of what ye do!"
سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #140

[4-Christ-Alone]

are you asking me or makiing a point? to me the bible is a simple message of the true God almighty, the gospel of Christ is simple to me, and the trinity is simple to me.

God bless

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."

Surah Al-Imran 3

The Law that was given to Moses(as) and the Gospel which was bestowed upon the Beloved Isa ibn Maryam. (Jesus son of Mary.)

[Isa Abdullah]

are you asking me or makiing a point? to me the bible is a simple message of the true God almighty, the gospel of Christ is simple to me, and the trinity is simple to me.

God bless

Dear Brother,

I am asking you.

Peace, Shaheed Isa Abdullah.

[4-Christ-Alone]

there is nothing complicated about it to me. i find the message easy to understand.

Explain what about it complicates you?

And i dont know anything about the bible being changed, but ive heard of it. is there any proof of this?

God bless

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

i have studied the Christian religion and I understand where it is coming from and its view on salvaton and atonement, but the fact is that it does not add up. The salvation formula that your religion propagates is not from the Jewish Bible.

The Bible has been modified. This is documented. Certain verses were interpolated. You can even see this is the case with the books rewritten by Martin Luther. Who decared certain books as irrelevant.

How do you see the Bible? Is it inerrant?

[4-Christ-Alone]

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep :)

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

i CAN make full sens of christianity*****

bad spelling

[Woodrow]

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep :)

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

If the Qur'an truly is the word of God(swt), which we believe. Shouldn't it have the same TRUTHs that are still retained in the Bible? Is it not possible that the reason there are differences is because the differences were what was changed by man?

Stop and think for a minute. Look at Muhammad(saw), was he a man with sufficient knowledge and education to have copied the Bible? Did Mohammad(saw) seek personal gain or glory from the Qur'an?

If it does not seem probable that Mohammad copied the Bible to write the Qur'an, were did the words come from?

[cihad]

Is faith enough?

i don't think so.
Any Tom ,sam or harry cud have ritten a book and said 'just have faith'.

that is why we have proof

[Isa Abdullah]

Can you show me some conclusive proof that the bible has been modified. And do the original copies of the koran exsist? i dont think so?

I cant make full sense of christiaity, and if im honest i can make any of islam, thats my personal view. understand it ws written hundreds of years after the bible and to me just looks to me in ways as a copy of it.

This is what i believe

Jesus came and died, victory over sin!

Satan saw what had happened, and wanted a way to distract people from this truth, wat better way than to create a similar religion, but without the most important thing in christianity, the one way to God, Jesus Christ as saviour! And sorry if i offend here but i think its to important to not say, i think satan is laughing at islam, and the other religions, addictions, broken lifes, and everything else that distracts people from the one way to God, Jesus Christ.

This might mean nothing to any of you, but some1 might read my words and have convictions bye the holy spirit and be lead to Christ, so if it makes 1 person think about what they believe, ikt was worth being banned, or even losing rep :)

I dont perticularly like people attacking the bible, but if no-one did i would be worried. If there was no attack on our religion i wud wonder where satan was, and think wait a minute if theres a devil against me why is this so easy? or why does no-one bother questionig this.

But anyway God bless

bismillah

Peace,

You know, before I digress I would like to praise Allaah (ta'ala) for this discussion and dialogue, there definitely needs to be more of it.

Now, regarding conclusive proof. What more proof do I need than history. The ancient manuscripts studied meticulously by Biblical scholars through biblical exegesis. Proofs that verses were interpolated and modified through the copying process by scribes. Think of Marcion. Who created his own cannon with special emphasis on the God of the Jews and the God of Jesus(p) being different warring Gods. He used only the NT epistles and excluded the Jewish Bible completely. Think of the tampering of Martin Luther when he wrote his bible. Ponder on Athanasius writing to the churches in Egypt in which books he thought should compile the complete bible?

The point is: The 73 books of the Catholic Bible and the 66 books of the Protestants illustrates another schism altogether. Who decides what is the Word of God? Who dares to change the words of God? If it is indeed the Word of God. With the many inconsistencies in the Bible, one is to question the very validity of such a text. Even if it is small things such as numerical descriptions, contradicting accounts of the supposed crucifixion, one has to ponder. If satan can decieve people in little matters, can he do so in big matters?

Allaah (God) tells us in the Qur'an: "Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence."

Regarding the Qur'an, do we have the originals? What do you mean the leaves and inanimate objects it was composed on? No. Merely, writing things down does not guarantee it is safely guarded. Having a 1400+ year old book, memorized in the minds of 1000's is different. Whilst, being written down. Allaah (God) has told us that the Qur'an will be preserved. And it is continually memorized in the minds of 10'000's today. The early Christians were illiterate and their manuscripts were copied by scribes who were not of the highest caliber, while at the same time, composed years and years after the departure of Jesus, son of Mary(as). There is a difference, brother.


Secondly, regarding satan making a similar religion to Christianity to decieve other that do not believe in Jesus (as) as Lord and Savior, or believe he was merely a Prophet of God Almighty, or anything else other than the redeeming sacrifice, is ludacris. What about the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seven Day Adventists. Even though they differ in doctrine here and there, are they saved? What of the early Christians who differed in the most fundamentals of their beliefs i.e. Basilidians, Docetae, Marcionite gospel, etc.

Additionally, there were similar accounts of savior-gods coming down from the heavens to liberate humanity from the bondage of sin and an everlasting torment, i.e. Mithras, Osirus,

You see, the excuse you provided that satan used Islam and all other faiths to deter humanity from accepting the Christian teaching of Jesus' sacrifice, is not an answer, but a cop-out. The early pagans rejected Christianity because they had their own savior-gods to believe in. The blood-atonement, the 12 disciples, etc. They challenged the early Christian theologians with this argument. And they gave the same rebuttal, "All the other savior-gods were false. Satan created them to cloud the minds of men, because he knew the true sacrifice of Jesus Christ was underway."

Regarding, attacking the Bible, I am not one for Blind faith. Does not your book, tell you to, "PROVE ALL THINGS". I do not like to merely attack other's Holy Books without some legitimate reason. However, Allaah (God) does not make mistakes and he is above all we attribute to Him.

All faiths attack other's religious books. Even those without a faith to believe in attack religious people who believe in God. However, the followers of God attack one another. Paradoxical isn't it? Yet true. Allaah (God) is the only saviour and it is to Him and Him alone we pray.

Peace, Shaheed Isa Abdullah

[Isa Abdullah]

Woodrow said:

"If the Qur'an truly is the word of God(swt), which we believe. Shouldn't it have the same TRUTHs that are still retained in the Bible? Is it not possible that the reason there are differences is because the differences were what was changed by man?"

bismillahir rahmanir rahim
alhamdulilla rabbil'alamin
la ilaha ilallah
Muhammadur rasulullah

These arguments are age old. They have arisen from haters of Islam. And have been rightly refuted by the scholars of this deen.

That was a very good reply. The Qur'an, recognizes itself as a "REMINDER". What was pure in the religions of the old, but were smeared by the minds of men.

The Qur'an says to believe in Jesus, son of Mary (as) and all Prophets (as) and "WE HEAR AND OBEY". However, even though we believe, Allaah (God) constantly gives us the reminder, to reflect, to ponder, etc. He wants us to think.

"This is the book whereof there is no doubt for those who fear Allaah (God)"

There are similarities between many faiths: Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, etc... Is it possible that they all originated from one Lord. The Lord of the worlds, and through time became mixed with fallacy? Good point Woodrow!

[Umar001]

Muslims, believe that their were original messages that were given to all the prophets (pbut) of all nations. Some came with merely oral messages, others came with books. The Jewish Bible as we have today as well as the NT are not considered the pure revelations they once were.

so akhi are you telling me that the Original Gospels freshly written by The AUTHORS of Mark Matthew Luke and John are G-ds word? and that the ORIGINAL letters by Paul are G-ds word?

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

When Allaah (ta'ala) sent the message to Musa (as) it was pure. It was a revelation. When it was composed by scribes after Musa (as) it was not that pure revelation. I am not saying the Jewish Bible we Have today is inspired. Whatever the Qur'an says is the truth and if the Bible has that, that remained intact. If not, that is where the message went astray. Tha samething with the NT. Nothing is divinely inspired, however, what coincides with the Qur'an, we can say was correct in the NT.

The Bible we have today has no divine authority.

[Umar001]

Well the Bible which had The Original Gospel of Mark was of no divine Authority. Only the INjeel of Jesus.