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selma1
06-08-2006, 08:47 PM
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SOME of the ERRORS in the HOLY BIBLE

Today, a big source of income is provided by writing a new Bible and selling it, by continuously changing the Holy Bible, and by publishing new ones. Every Westerner has a Holy Bible in his house, whether he believes or not. Moreover, most Western peasants do not know of any other books, except the Bible. They do not read any other books besides the Holy Bible. The Westerners' cultural level is not as high as most of us think. Those living in villages can read and write, but they do not know what happened in the world. They only read the Holy Bible. That is why every new "reviewed and corrected" Holy Bible is published in the millions, and thereby, every year publishers earn millions of dollars. As a result, we claim that no profession is as profitable as publishing new Holy Bibles by way of changing it from time to time.


Western magazines often say "there are mistakes in the Holy bible." Sometimes there may be some amazing articles written by some famous scientists and theologists. One of them is below:


Now, you too, just like me, will ask yourself: How can the word of Allahu ta'ala be translated incorrectly? How can the word of Allahu ta'ala be revised by men? How can the word of Allahu ta'ala be examined? And say to yourself: Is it possible for such a document or text, which is continuously being changed and corrected, to be "the word of Allahu ta'ala?" Moreover, you will be completely surprised to read the words which are in the prologue of the King James Version, which was changed in 1971 for the second time. The religious committee that did the latest correction states in the prologue as follows: "... The translation of the Holy Bible, which was ordered to be prepared by King James, is extremely perfect. And it can be assumed that it is the highest work of any English publications. But, what a pity that this Book contains so many grave and serious mistakes that require it to be corrected over and over again.



Now, let us think the matter over once again. A religious committee assembled and found a lot of grave mistakes in the Book which had previously been looked upon as the word of Allahu ta'ala, between the years 1020 (1611) and 1391 (1971), and decided that those mistakes had to be corrected. After this, can anybody believe that this Book is "the word of Allahu ta'ala?" We will narrate a pleasant story to you below. The narrator of the story is a person who had scientific discussions with Christian scientists and men of religious authorities on the Holy Book as well as the Christian dogma and successfully proved that the Holy bible has been corrupted. This person says:


"We have seen an article, dated September 8, 1957, in a magazine called Awake, which is published in the U.S.A. Here is the article: 'It is strange but there have been 50,000 mistakes in the Holy Bible!' Recently, a young Christian bought a copy of the Holy Bibles "K J V" (King James Version). Since he believed it was the word of Allahu ta'ala, he thought there were no mistakes in it. But he was surprised when he read an article, namely, "Realities About the Holy Bible," that was written in the magazine look. It said that a religious council formed in the year 1133 (1720) found 20,000 errors in the K.J.V. He was greatly disappointed. When he talked to his religious friends about this matter, they told him that there were 50,000 errors in today's Bible, not 20,000. The young man became unconscious. Now he asked me: 'For Allah's sake! Please answer me! Is this Bible, which I believe to be the word of Allah, full of mistakes?'


"I had read that magazine carefully and kept it. It was about five months ago when someone knocked at the front door of my house. When I opened the door I saw a smiling, kind, and sincere young man. After he had greeted me respectfully, he showed his identification card. "Jehovah's Witness!" was written on that card. I knew that this was the name given to young missionaries. That young missionary, using a very soft voice, said to me: 'First of all, we deemed it to be our duty to invite educated people, who are out of the right way, to Christianity, which is the true religion. I brought for you some good books which contain quality texts quoted from the Bible, which is the word of God. Let me give them to you. Read them and decide for yourself.' I invited him in. I made coffee for him. I think he thought he had deceived me. After we had drunk the coffee, I asked him: 'My dear friend! You accept the Holy Bible, as the word of Allahu ta'ala, don't you?' He responded saying 'of course.' I said: 'So, there are no errors in the Holy Bible, are there?' He said: 'Never.' Then I showed him the magazine Awake and said: 'This is a magazine published in the USA which is a Christian country. This magazine says there are a total of 50,000 errors in the Bible. If it were an Islamic magazine, you would be free to deem it important or not. Now, don't you have to accept the words in a magazine published by a man who is a Christian ? So, what do you think of this claim?' The young man was suddenly surprised. He said: 'Will you let me read the magazine please?' He read it again and again. I watched his face and how he became ashamed. I felt difficulty in not laughing. At last he found an answer to give me. He said 'look! This is a magazine printed in 1957. Now, we live in the year 1980. It means, 23 years have passed. I think the errors have been found and corrected during this time.' I asked him seriously: 'O.K. but, I wonder how many thousands of those 50,000 errors were corrected. Which errors are the corrected ones? Can you give me information about them?' He said, putting down his head: 'I'm afraid I can't do that.' I added: 'My dear guest! How can I believe the Holy Bible is Allahu ta'ala's book when it is often changed and corrected and contains 50,000 errors. Not even a letter in the Qur'an al-karim, which we believe to be Allahu ta'ala's book, has been changed up to now. There are no errors in it, not even a single one. You want me to be a Christian, but your guide, the Bible, is full of errors. So, the way you have chosen is doubtful. Now, how can you explain this dilemma to me?' The poor man was surprised and confused. He left me hurriedly saying: 'I'll see some great priests and come to you again to answer your questions.' But, since that day, I haven't seen him. I have been waiting for him for months. But no word from him up to now."


Now, let me give you some more information about the mistakes and the contradictions of terms in the Bible.


First of all, let me tell you that those who tried and found errors in the Torah and the Bibles are members of the church. They have fallen upon the contradictions, and now they are trying to find a way to get rid of them. Philips, who published a book entitled The Modern Bible Translated Into English in London, in 1971, says about the Book of Matthew as follows:


"It is asserted by some people that Matthew, who was one of the apostles and is supposed to have written a book in the Holy Bible entitled with his own name, did not write it himself. Today many members of the church claim that this book was written by a mysterious person. This mysterious person has changed Matthew's book according to his point of view and added some other words to it. His writing style is clear and fluent. Whereas, the writing style of the authentic Book of Matthew is more complex, but the words are more logical. Matthew used to write down what he heard and saw after he had weighed them in his mind and was absolutely convinced that they were the words of Allahu ta'ala. But, in contrast, the Book of Matthew, as we have it now does not seem to have been written so carefully."


Since the words of Allahu ta'ala cannot be changed continuously, the example above is enough proof to show that today's Book of Matthew has been written by human beings. The original Book of Matthew has disappeared and an unknown man has written a new Bible in its place. Nobody knows who this man is.


As it is known, the four apostles' books that are in the New Testament of today's Holy Bible were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Only John, the son of Hadrat Isa's aunt, had actually seen Hadrat Isa, but he wrote his book in Samos after Hadrat Isa had been taken up into heaven. Neither Luke nor Mark had seen Hadrat Jesus (Isa). In fact, Mark was not an apostle. He was only a translator for Peter. Furthermore, not only the Book of Matthew, but also the book of John is claimed to have been written or changed by someone else. In short, there are many rumors about these four books. But everybody in the world agrees with the idea that: These four books, written by human beings (as you will see below) consist of the tales which convey the same story differently. They are written by human beings.


We would like to mention another aspect of today's Torah and Bibles. The story below is narrated by a man who had scientific discussions with Christians and put them in a position of not being able to answer.


"One day, I called upon my Christian neighbors and said: 'I have been studying the Holy Bible lately. Therefore, I want to read a quote from it to you.' They were very happy to hear that I was busy with the Holy Bible, thinking that 'perhaps, he is about to embrace the true faith.' They hurried around me. I gave a Holy Bible to everybody and requested them to open it to the 37 th chapter of the Book of Isaiah. Then, I said 'Now, I'll read this book from the Bible in my hand. Please follow me and pay attention to see if I am reading everything exactly.' All of them began to listen to me carefully while following the text. The text I read was as follows:


'And it came to pass, when King Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.


And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah, the Prophet, the son of Amoz.


And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth."


And I continued to read some more, but while I was reading, I stopped and asked a few times, 'Any questions? Am I reading precisely.' They always affirmed, saying, 'Yes, you are reading precisely.' Then I said to them sharply, 'Now, I'll reveal something to you. The verses I have read are in the 19 th chapter of Second Kings. But, the verses you have followed are in the 37 th chapter of Isaiah. So, these two books are exactly the same. It means that one of them was copied completely. But, I do not know which one was copied from which. It will be your business to decide on this matter. But the books that you have deemed to be holy were stolen from each other. Here is the proof.' They all became furious and cried out saying, 'It cannot be. It is not possible for something like this to happen.' They took the Bible from my hand immediately. They checked it carefully. They were quite puzzled seeing that the verses I had read were in Second Kings 19 and that they were identical to the verses in Isaiah 37. I said to them: 'Do not be angry with me, but is it appropriate for a holy book to have examples of plagiarism in it? How can I believe in a book like this?' All of their heads were lowered. They confirmed the truth unwillingly."


Now, let me show you some more paragraphs in the Holy Bible which cannot be understood.


A verse from Matthew 9:9: "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him: Follow me. And he arose, and followed him."


Now let's examine the statements above. If Matthew wrote them himself, why should he put them down as if he heard the story from someone else named Matthew? If he had written it himself, he should have told it like this: "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, I was sitting at the receipt of custom. He saw and saith unto me: Follow me. I arose, and followed him."


From the Book of Luke 1:3: "For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us. Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus."


It is understood from this paragraph that Luke wrote his book in a time when some other men were busy writing Bibles.


Luke remarks that there exist no Bibles written by any apostles. By reason, he distinguished apostles from those who were busy writing Bibles by saying "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word."


There was no need for him to say that he was a disciple of one of the apostles. It would bring him no advantage because in that century there were many compilations, texts, and booklets attributed to the apostles. Maybe, he intended it to be a proof to prove that he himself examined every fact in detail and learned from the original source.


A verse from John 19:35: "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe."


If this passage had been written by John himself, he should not have said "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe."


If you examine these quotes above, you'll see that the three apostles ('Matthew, Luke, John) did not mention themselves but an unknown man. Who he was is not clear. Who is this man? Is he a man? Is he a prophet? Who are the servants of the word? Who is the man who stood up and followed Hadrat Isa? Who is the witness? How can a religious book be so incomprehensible and full of so many mysteries. Who is witness for whom is still unknown.


Now, let us study the contradictions in the Holy Bible.


II. Samuel 24:13: "So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee?"


Now, let us read in the First Chronicles (21:11) about the same story: "So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, choose thee either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee. Or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel."


You see the great difference regarding the same subject in the two books of the Holy Bible, which is claimed to be the word of Allahu ta'ala. Which one must we believe in? Does Allahu ta'ala contradict Himself?


The differences between the books of today's Holy Bible are so numerous that if we tried to convey all of them, this would be a tremendous book. However, we shall mention a few more contradictions so as to give our readers a more definitive understanding.


Second Chronicles 36:5: "Jehoiachin was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem."


Second Kings 24:8: "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign." There is a seven year difference between the ages. Apparently, those who have written this holy book did not take into consideration this discrepancy.


Another example:


Second Samuel 10:18: "And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there."


Now, a description of the same battle in the book, First Chronicles 19:18: "But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach, the captain of the host."


Again, pay attention to the differences: According to the first book there were seven hundred chariots, but according to the second book there were seven thousand, or ten times as many chariots. According to the first book, forty thousand horsemen were killed, but according to the second book they were footmen, not horsemen.


If the books in the Holy Bible give such varying explanations, who can believe that they are the words of Allahu ta'ala? Can we say, Allah forbid, that the All-knowing, Almighty is unable to distinguish footmen from horsemen? Does He not know the difference between seven hundred and seven thousand? To assume and declare such contradictory scripture to be the words of Allahu ta'ala is the worst slander and insolence one can perpetrate against Allahu ta'ala. Let us go over some more examples.


The matter we shall examine below concerns the sacrificial area (sacrificing pool) that Hadrat Sulaiman had built in his palace.


The First Kings 7:26: "And it was a handbreadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: It contained two thousand baths." (36)


Now, in the same book, Second Chronicles 4:5: "And the thickness of it was a handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths."


As you see again, there are one thousand baths, that is, thirty-seven hundred liters of difference. Apparently, those who wrote these books did not cooperate with each other and recorded what they remembered without examining the book overall. Thus, this "holy" scripture contradicts itself while being proffered as the words of God. Let us give one more example:


Second Chronicles 9:25: "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem."


Let us read the same story from First Kings 4:26: "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots."


As you see here, the number of the stalls has increased ten times.


It can be said, "Mostly there are number differences. Is the number difference so important?" Let me respond to this question with a statement from Albert Schweizer. He said: "Even the biggest miracles cannot prove that two and two equal five, or that there are angels on the circumference of a circle. And also, the most enormous miracles, no matter how many they are, cannot remove any contradictions or mistakes which lie in the Christian doctrine."


Lastly, let us examine some textual contradictions.


Matthew 27:44: "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." But, Luke (23:43) says: "One of the thieves swore at Hadrat Jesus. The other one heard it and scolded him saying: "Do not do that. He is having trouble like us. And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


The difference between these two passages can be seen apparently.


According to Mark, after Hadrat Jesus had been pulled down from the cross, while he was among the dead, he talked to his apostles and then ascended into heaven on that same day. However, according to Luke, Hadrat Jesus made his ascent after he had been among the dead for forty days.


It is possible to give many examples like those above. But the size of this book is not large enough to contain all of them. Turmedo, the priest who became a Muslim and whom we introduced to you in the preface of this book, gives some examples himself:


Matthew 3:4: "...and his meat was locust and wild honey." In the same book and just a few chapters below (11:18): "For John came neither eating nor drinking."


The old priest has drawn attention to another point:


Matthew 27:51: "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And came out of the graves after this resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."


The priest Anselmo Turmedo, who became a Muslim says: "This description of the tragedy you have already read has been completely derived from an old book. This record was written by a Jewish historian when Titus conquered and destroyed Jerusalem. Now we see the same phrases in the book of Matthew. In other words, somebody has inserted these words into the Book of Matthew." This proves again the assertion: "The book of Matthew is not the actual book written by Matthew himself." And it brings us back to the mysterious person who made those insertions and wrote the book of Matthew.


Let us cite another historical incongruity:


It says in Genesis 16:15: "And Ha'gar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Ha'gar bare, Ish'ma-el." But after a few pages, that is, Genesis 22:2, it states: "And He said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah." In other words, the fact that Hadrat Abraham had another son named Ismail was forgotten.


Leaving these mistakes aside, which provoke boredom in our readers, let us try to find out the origins of the books which make up today's Holy Bible, which is believed in by today's Christians and Jews.


The first books in the Holy Bible are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. They call these five books the Torah (Tawrat). They suppose the real Torah of Moses ('alaihi 's-salam) consisted of these five books.


We have written above what was said about the Book of Isaiah. As it is rumored, it was written by someone else.



The Book of Judges might have been written by Ismail.

The Book Of Ruth : Author is not known.

The first Book of Samuel : Author is not known.

The second Book of Samuel : Author is not known.

The first Book of the Kings : Author is not known.

The second Book of Kings : Author is not known.


The first Book of Chronicles : Possibly written by Ezra, who was a Hebrew rabbi, a man of religion that lived 350 years before Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam).


The second book of Chronicles: It is possible that it too was written by Ezra. The fact that Ezra means 'Uzair is written in the book Munjid. But the writer of these books is not 'Uzair ('alaihi 's-salam). He is a Jewish man named Ezra.


Ezra : Ezra, himself, wrote it.

Esther : Author is unknown.

The Book of Job : Author is unknown.

The Book of Psalms : It means the chapters of Zabur


It is said that they are the verses which belong to David ('alaihi 's-salam), but it also contains some Psalms of Bani Korah, Asaf, Ezrahi, Heman and Hadrat Sulaiman ('alaihi 's-salam).


Jonah : Author is unknown.

Habakkuk : A book written

by a person whom nobody knows. We do not know where he was from, his pedigree, or his job.


This is a very brief summary about the books of the Old Testament in the Holy Bible.


As for the "New Testament," since it has already been explained with its many contradictions and since the necessary information about the apostles has been written, we feel it is unnecessary to repeat them.


Moreover, in many cases, the Bible is simply meaningless. For example: "The wrestling of Hadrat Yaqub (Jacob) with Allah and defeating Him in his dreams" or "the sexual intercourse between Lut ('alaihi 's-salam) and his daughters." Since the Christians have acknowledged how infamous these words are, they have begun to delete them from the Holy Bible.


At this point, let us examine the way today's Holy Bible expresses itself and see what it tries to teach human beings.


As an example, we have taken an article from Genesis, the first book. This book talks about the first human beings, the first prophets, and the great prophets like Adam, Noah, Abraham (alaihimussalavatu wattaslimat). It also outlines how the Hebrew families were formed. Here we quote a few verses from the beginning of the 38 th chapter of Genesis, which talk about Judah, who was the father of the Jews:


"And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Cananite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her and went in unto her. And she conceived, and bare a son;..." Briefly, it means: Judah is the father of the Jewish race. He went to a man from Adulla. He saw there the daughter of a man from Cannan. Her name was Shuah. He took the girl and entered her body. She became pregnant and gave birth to a son.


Now, please, putting your hand on your heart (it means: "Tell me frankly."), and answer this question. What does a religious book teach? A religious book teaches people what they must do and what they must not do. It gives them some advice about this world and the next world. It rebukes them for their bad behavior and praises them for their good deeds. It instructs them on their duties to Allahu ta'ala and how to treat each other. It explains how to live in peace. Briefly, a religious book is a book of morality.


Which one of these points is in the scripture above? It is apparently a story of fornication. This passage could be accepted as pornographic or obscene and banned in every country. Likewise, there are many other immoral scriptures in this book which is believed to be a Holy Book by Christians and the Jews. For example, in the 30 th and subsequent verses of the 19th chapter of Genesis in the Old Testament, the Prophet Lot is alleged to have had sexual intercourse with his own two daughters after they induced him to get drunk by having him drink alcohol, and even worse, as a result, his daughters bore baby boys. Hadrat David is supposed to have had sexual intercourse with Bathseba, Uria's wife. Uria was one of his commanders. After seeing her naked while she was taking a bath, the Prophet sent Uria to the most dangerous battle front in order to get rid of him, according to the words written in the 11th chapter of Second Samuel in the Old Testament. Today, in many European museums, there are pictures illustrating Hadrat David watching Bathseba or of his sending Uria to die. In European languages, there is the expression "the letter of Uria" which means "death- warrant, or very bad news." What do the people who read these kind of stories in the Bible learn? They learn about the men who were forced to be in the same bed with their brother's wives; the fathers- in -law who caused their own son's wife to become pregnant; the father who had sexual intercourse with his own daughter; the religious men (the men who had religious authority) who had sexual intercourse with the wives of those who worked in their offices.


These stories could cause us to go mad. Even some Christians do not believe in these ugly stories and reject them. In an issue of the magazine Plain Truth published in 1977, it said: "While you are having your children read the Holy Bible, you must be very careful because in the Holy Bible there are immoral and degenerate stories. In the minds of those children who will read them very corrupt and wrong ideas will be formed about the relationships between the members of their own families. These stories of fornication, which are mostly in the Old Testament, must be deleted from the Bible, then this purged Bible can be given to them. The same magazine adds: "The Bible must be revised again because with its present form, it does not encourage good morals; on the contrary, it encourages the youth towards immorality."


The famous man of letters Bernard Shaw was more intolerable about the Bible and said: "In the world, the most dangerous book I have ever read, is the Bible. It must be kept under a firm lock. Its appearance must be prevented."


In his book about the Holy Bible, Dr. Stroggie, referring to Dr. Parker, says: "When you read the Holy Bible you feel yourself lost among the subjects which contradict each other. There are too many different and strange names in the Holy Bible. Especially, in the Book of Genesis, they considered pedigrees only. Who was born from whom and how it happened? These are told continuously. What has this to do with me? What connection do these stories have with loving and worshipping Allahu ta'ala? How can we become better men? What is Doomsday? How and who are we going to submit our accounts to? These aspects are hardly addressed. Mostly there are different legends. They begin the night before finishing the day."


In his book entitled Canon of the New Testament, professor F.C. Burkitt wrote: "The four descriptions of Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) in those four Bibles are different from each other. The people who wrote them did not want to coordinate those books. That is why they give conflicting information. There is no relationship between them. While some scripture are like incomplete stories, others seem as if they are quoted from a famous book."


This is said on the 582 nd page of the second volume of the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: "Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) did not write a book nor ordered any of his disciples to write anything." In other words, this great encyclopedia proves that those four books in the Bible that are written by the apostles are composed of different stories with no religious value.


Today, while scientists, historians, and even the Christian men of religious authority from Europe announce that the existing "Torahs and Bibles are corrupt," the enemies of religion, who deny the value of morality, and who are ignorant of spiritual knowledge, as a result of being excessively proud over their material progress, discount all religions by using the depravity in the Torahs and Bibles as a proof. In addition, they think that they are right to deny miracles. Yet, it is a basic principle for Muslims and Christians, in brief for all religious people, to believe in miracles. The man who tries to prove religious knowledge and faith through his intellect, which is impossible, will go astray. Man is the enemy of what he does not know or understand. Such a pathetic man who is afflicted with the disaster of denying miracles is Ernest O. Hauser, a famous American author of religious books. In his article published in the year 1979, he misinterprets miracles and to a great extent, he insults religious people. In order to deceive youngsters, he took the articles of some atheists as a proof. Shall we read his article together?


"It is said in the Book of Matthew 14:19: ... 'And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes... And they did all eat, and were filled... And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.'


"The most famous miracle of Hadrat Jesus, which is a subject of debate even in our time, is described like this in the Book of matthews.


"A miracle is something extraordinary, done by a prophet to show his own ability and strength in a way contrary to natural laws. But today, how can we propose and except a Christian who has grown up in a modern environment, while having learned the latest technology and science to believe these miracles? But, it is impossible to delete them from the Bible. So, we have to study on miracles carefully and in detail. We have been brought up hearing about so many of the miracles performed by Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) since the time of our childhood. Among them, his turning water into wine at a wedding in Canan, his calming the terrible storm in Galileo, his curing the blind, his walking on the sea up to his apostles' boat, and his giving life to Lozarus, who had died, have been drilled into our minds. In fact, most of the four Bibles are full of miracles. Miracles are contained in the best sections of the four books of the apostles. When the honorable Jesus came to the Jewish people, he had to perform miracles in order to prove that he was a prophet. He did this because the Jews opposed him and said: 'You claim yourself to be a prophet. Therefore, you must show us miracles in order for us to believe you.' He even had to show miracles to some of his apostles, who had doubts from time to time. For example, when a terrible storm broke out while they were traveling on a boat in the sea, they said: 'Oh! Lord! We are about to die by drowning. Help us, please!' As soon as he signalled, the storm stopped. This incident had a great affect on the apostles. They kneeled down for mercy. They confirmed their belief in him. Later on, when the apostles told this story to other Jews they also admired Jesus and became his followers. [Matthew chapter 8]. It is said in the 37 th and the following verses in the 10th chapter of the Book of John that Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) said, "If I do not do the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him." Those miracles had such a great affect that the famous religious Jew Nicodemus, who did not believe in Hadrat Jesus Christ's ability to work miracles, visited him one night and said to him: 'From now on, I believe that you have been sent by Allah because you cannot do these miracles without the help of Allahu ta'ala.' We know that Hadrat Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) never liked displaying these miracles; he was even ashamed. He said to a leprous man whom he cured only by touching: 'Tell nobody that I cured you.' He deemed it sufficient to say a few words and to act modestly when he performed a miracle. According to the Bible, he said to a woman whose son he had revivified: 'Go on your way, your child is alive.' He used to only say to the patients he cured: 'Get out of the bed and walk.' In fact, those miracles were completed by a little gesture made with his hands or by touching. Hadrat Jesus Christ's compassion and mercy usually were the basis for the miracles being exposed. One day, he met two blind men on the side of the road; they begged him for help. Hadrat Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) pitied them, and when he rubbed their eyes with his hands, they were able to see again. As to the miracle reported by Luke, this one also shows how merciful Jesus was. Hadrat Jesus Christ met a funeral ceremony for a poor woman's only son. Since he felt compassion for the woman, who was in great trouble, he revivified her dead son. Today, there are many Christians who deny these miracles. A new scientist who believes in the honorable Jesus Christ declares that Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) could not perform such miracles. Yet in 1162 (1748), the famous Scotch historian David Hume said: 'Miracles violate the laws of nature, which are based on definite and fixed fundamentals. It is impossible to change these laws. That is why, miracles cannot be believed.'


"But, the most important opinion is that of Rudolph Buthman, a man of religious authority in today's world. This theologist says: 'For a man who has electricity, radio and a television set in his home, it is impossible for him to believe in those imaginary miracles written in the Bible.'


"In order to understand what the origins of those miracles were and to give logical explanations for them ,various experiments have already been done. For example, the miracle of making two fish sufficient for more than five thousand people occurred in a different way. Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 'ssalam) went out for a walk with some followers. When it was time to eat everybody presented the food he had brought with him. Hadrat Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) added his two fish and five loaves of bread which he had brought, and they all ate together. The miracle of Hadrat Jesus' walking on the sea as far as his apostles' ship was only an optical illusion. We all know that a man walking along the shore of the sea on a foggy day may appear to be walking on the water. As to the miracle concerning his stopping a storm, the fact is that when Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) signalled, the storm was coming to an end anyway. It is correct for you to think that even if he did not signal, the storm was ending anyway. In fact, all of these miracles were reported by those who had seen them. A man who witnesses an event like this, being misled by his emotions, can diminish or exaggerate an event, or say something contrary to the truth. He may tell, not what he witnessed, but how he thought things to be. However our discussion on miracles has almost ended, but it can be concluded that there are few people left who believe the miracles in the Bibles. Recently, a well-known archbishop said: 'Even if a man does not believe in miracles, he can be a true Christian because the fundamental principle of Christianity is to believe in God and have pity for human beings.' This means that when we are reading the Bible, even if we accept it as a legendary book and the miracles in it as imaginary experiences or not, it has no connection with being religious.


"It is remarkable that, on the one hand, the miracles performed by Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) caused him to become world famous, but, on the other hand, they also caused a great number of people to become his enemy. When the Jewish men of religious authority heard that Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) had cured a sick man in Bathesda (Baitania) and revivified Lazarus, they said: 'This man is attracting all the people towards himself by performing these miracles. He almost designates himself to be God. In order to protect ourselves against his harm, we must kill him.' Then, they complained about him to the Romans. On that day, Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) was performing his last miracle by putting a man's ears back into their proper places after they had been cut off by Peter as a result of the servant speaking against Hadrat Jesus. This man was the servant of the chief diviner and had come to catch Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) along with the Roman soldiers. By forgiving him, the Prophet showed the world that 'man should be compassionate towards his enemies also.'


[According to the information in the book History of the Jews written by H. Hirsch, a Jewish man of religion authority, the Jews formed an assembly called The Assembly of Seventies so that they could get their community to explicitly follow the orders of the Torah. The head of that assembly was named The Chief Diviner. Those Jewish men of religion who teach Judaism and interpret the Torah to Jewish students in schools are called Scribes. Their explanations and additions were inserted into the Torah published later on. These are the scribes mentioned in the Bible. One of their duties was to get the Jews to follow the Torah.]


"After that, the miracles of Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam) came to and end. When the romans caught and took him before King Herold, the King told him: 'I hear that you perform miracles. Let me see one.' In response, Jesus was silent and looked down because his mission was over; the business given to him by Allahu ta'ala had come to an end. This prophet after assisting others, could, at this point, not help himself; he was sent to save mankind, not to save himself. How much Allahu ta'ala liked his behavior is clearly understood by the fact that He raised Jesus up into heaven.


"The question, 'Do you believe in miracles?' has been repeatedly asked. Yes, it is hard for today's generation to believe in miracles. But, we must not forget that faith cannot be explained completely by logic. Faith is love and it does not always correspond with logic. A bit of divine right should be left for human beings, as well. When we were still children we used to listen to fairy tales with great joy, but as we grew older, how saddened we were to hear that the animals, fairies, magicians and dwarfs were not true. Let us not think about miracles so much. I suppose, even a man who can think quite logically would take great pleasure in thinking that, whether tale or not, he descended from heaven to the earth on the miraculous wings of Christianity."


The Christians who discovered the mistakes and the defects in the Holy Bible neither believe its words nor its miracles. Though they are Christians, some people like the British philosopher david Hume and the priest Rudolf Butman, who understood that the Torah and the Bible in their hands could never be Allah's word, have clearly declared their hatred for Christianity, and this hatred was reasonable. Meanwhile, violating scientific and ethical fundamentals, they also dared to declare their imaginary thoughts on the miracles given in the Qur'an al-karim which is the true word of Allahu ta'ala. The youngsters reading their articles, which are unjust and not based upon any scientific facts, but written on behalf of science, will be misled just like their authors. Serving innocent youngsters in order to save them from this disaster is the first business for those who are conscientious and consider it to be a sacred duty to serve mankind in this world. We, too, with the intention of pleasing Allahu ta'ala, who orders us to be helpful, will quote below the book Mawahib-i Ludinniyye by Ahmad Qastalani (37) (rahmat-Allahu 'alaih), who was a great Islamic scholar.


"A miraculous occurrence, which was a proof manifesting that the Prophets (alaihimussalavatu wattaslimat) were sent by Allahu ta'ala to announce the truth, is called "mujiza." While performing a miracle (mujiza), a prophet must state to the onlookers: 'If you do not believe, you, too, do the same yourself, but you cannot.' A mujiza is something that is contrary to systematic and scientific laws. That is why a scientist cannot perform a mujiza. If a man displays a miraculous feat but does not make a challenge beforehand or does not explain 'You cannot do this,' he should be looked upon as a wali and not as a prophet. A miraculous deed performed by a wali is called "Karama." Similar things done by others are called "Sihr." that is, magic. The things done by magicians can be done by Prophets (alaihimussalavatu wattaslimat / may Allah's peace be upon them), and awliya [plural for wali] (rahima-humullah ta'ala / may Allah's mercy be upon them) too. For example: When Pharaoh's magicians converted ropes into snakes, the rod of the Prophet Moses ('alaihi 's-salam) became a snake itself and swallowed them all. When the magicians saw that their magic had been subverted and realized that they were not able to perform the mujiza (miracle) which they had just witnessed, they all submitted and believed in the prophethood of Hadrat Moses. Although, Pharaoh had threatened them with torture and death, they did not relinquish their belief. The mujizas of the Prophets (alaihimussalawatu wattaslimat) and the karamas of the awliya (rahimahumullahu ta'ala) have all been created by Allahu ta'ala. Though He creates the events which are conformable to scientific laws and natural phenomena, with the effects of some certain reasons, He creates the mujizas without such reasons. Mujiza is also named "burhan" or "ayat." Sihr (magic) changes the physical properties and shapes of matter. It does not change the structure of matter. But, a mujiza and karama can change both of them.


It was cited both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament that the last of the Prophets, Muhammad ('alaihi 's-salam) would come, would appear on the Arabian peninsula with certain qualities and would be accompanied by miraculous occurrences. The revealing of these facts is a great mujiza for both the Prophet Moses and Jesus ('alaihi 's-salam) and also for Muhammad ('alaihi 's-salam). Allahu ta'ala granted each Prophet mujizas similar to the things deemed valuable and meritorious during those times. Allahu ta'ala has not only given Hadrat Muhammad ('alaihi 's-salam) mujizas like the ones which were given to the Prophets before him, but He also granted him other mujizas as well. The fact that Muhammad ('alaihi 's-salam) performed more than three thousand mujizas in his life-time is written in the Turkish book Mirat-i Kainat. Eighty-six of them are written in this book in a separate part entitled "The Mujizas of Muhammad" ('alaihi 's-salam).


Some of the Muslims who are not Ahl as-sunnat, and some scientists who are ignorant of religion, do not believe in either all of the mujizas or some among them. They say that such happenings are not conformable to their scientific knowledge. The disbelievers among them must be taught the religion of Islam so that they can attain the true faith. As for those who are believers, they must believe in the mujizas. They have to because the Holy Qur'an informs us that on the Day of Resurrection, the earth, the heavens, the living and the non-living will change their structures and come apart. Those who believe in these changes which do not conform with scientific knowledge, must also believe in miracles. We do not say: "Prophets ('alaimu 's-salawatu wattaslimat) make mujizas or awliya (Muslim saints) (rahimahumullahu ta'ala) make karamas." If we said so, the disbelievers would have a right to speak. But we say: "Allahu ta'ala creates mujizas through His Prophets (alaihimussalawatu wattaslimat) and karamas through his awliya (rahimahumullah ta'ala)." A reasonable and honest man, who knows biological and astronomical events thoroughly, and who has studied the latest scientific developments, understands immediately that every existence, organic or inorganic, from the atoms to the sun, has been created in a well-balanced manner. He also understands that they all run continuously like the components of a single machine depending on each other. He, therefore, without hesitation believes that one entity, seeing, knowing and having infinitive power, has created them as He desired, and is directing them as He wishes. He welcomes the idea of a great creator creating mujizas and karamas, too. As scientists, we say that mujizas are real and are only done by Allahu ta'ala. He makes them possible through His Prophets (alaihimussalawatu wattaslimat). No prophet can perform mujizas by himself without the permission of Allahu ta'ala. Hadrat Jesus' ('alaihi 's-salam) curing the sick people and revivifying the dead are mujizas created by Allahu ta'ala and are revealed in the Qur'an al-karim. But the Christians, many of whom are completely confused about the correctness of their Bible, believe nothing communicated in it, and as a result have become irreligious.


The unfortunate Christians, how can they be expected to believe in today's Holy Bible? Shall we re-write, in brief, the facts you have already learned about the Bible?


1) There are very few passages in the Holy Bible which can be accepted as the words of Allahu ta'ala.


2) It is understood that some words are not the words of Allahu ta'ala, but of a Prophet, through the fact that those words are written in the Holy Bible with the name of the Prophet who uttered them.


3) Numerous words, said by unknown narrators, were added to the Holy Bible.


4) Many Christian men of religion have confessed that many tales and legends are intermixed with the narrations of the apostles.


5) The history of Hadrat Jesus Christ ('alaihi 's-salam), as given by the apostles, is contradictory.


6) Some Biblical books, such as Barnabas' Book which consisted of true narrations, were destroyed by the Christians.


7) The Holy Bible has already been examined and changed again and again up to now by various religious committees. These examinations are still going on today. According to an estimation, there are four thousand (4,000) Holy Bibles at hand, each one being different from the other. Every examining committee claims that there were serious mistakes in the previous Holy Bibles.


8) Various emperors ordered the revision of the Holy Bible and their orders were fulfilled.


9) The means of expression in the Holy Bible are too undignified to be the expressions of Allah's book. Some sections of the Old Testament are too obscene to be read by children, as you have seen above.


10) The fact that there are fifty thousand (50,000) errors in the Holy Bible has already been written by different European Christian magazines. Today, the Christians do their best to correct the worst one called "The Trinity."


11) Finally, by Christian theologists, too, the Bible is admitted to be the "work of human beings," not the words of Allahu ta'ala.


My dear readers! You have examined today's Holy Bible together with us. As you must admit, we did not support any side in this examination. We narrated only the words of religious men from the Christian world, not Islamic scholars. From time to time, they took out different passages which contradicted each other. Everybody can examine and scrutinize the Bible after buying one. We wrote down the chapters and verses of the subjects we studied, and we examined their accuracy extensively.


Now, how can such a book be compared with the Holy Qur'an (Qur'an al-karim) which is eloquent, dignified, divinely expressed and has never been changed, not even a single letter since the time it was revealed? Surely, all of us have come to this conclusion:


The words of Allahu ta'ala are never changed. And such a book which has defects, fabrications, has been changed from time to time, and was admitted to have been written by mankind by its own theologians cannot be the "book of Allahu ta'ala."


In today's Holy Bible where are such things as advice, guidance, distinguishing good from evil, describing the world and the next world, consolation, etc., which are necessarily expected to be in the book of Allahu ta'ala?


In a copy of the magazine Plain Truth, dated July, 1395 (1975 A.D.), it stated: "We must confess that we cannot present a book which has enough persuasive power to influence the minds of those who are educated, but not Christian. They always cite the different Bibles which contain numerous contradictions and tell us: "You are not able to agree among yourselves. What do you want to enlighten us with?"


A Muslim gentleman having had many experiences with Christian missionaries says:


"In the year 1939, I was in charge of a commercial house called Adams Mission, which was near a Christian Seminary (priest school). I was twenty years old. From time to time, the students attending that school used to come to the place I worked and mock us, and expose to me and my Muslim friends their grudge and hatred towards the religion of Islam, Hadrat Muhammad and the Qur'an al-karim, by using the most vulgar expressions. In their opinion, the Islamic religion was a false religion and the Muslims were the most inferior creatures in the world. Since I was a sensitive man, their attacks caused me much sorrow. I could not sleep at night. I was not able to respond to them. I was not only ignorant of Christianity, but I also had little knowledge about my own religion. Because of this, I decided to study the Holy Bible and the Qur'an al-karim thoroughly to increase my knowledge of Islam and Christianity, and to read the books written about these subjects. As a result, I have been studying for forty (40) years. My greatest source of information on this matter has been the Arabic book Idharul Haq written in Istanbul by Rahmat-Allah Effendi (38), an Indian (Rahime-hullahu ta'ala). At last, after a time, the truth flashed in front of my eyes, like the sun. Henceforth, I could see and understand everything in detail. Subsequently, when those priest candidates re-approached me, they received appropriate answers and left feeling ashamed with their heads down. During the conversation, while I was giving them answers, I did not use vulgar expressions; on the contrary, as Allahu ta'ala ordered us to do, I spoke in a pleasant way, using soft words. I had examined the Holy Bible quite carefully and exposed the defects in it so effectively that they were not able to find any answers to give me. Furthermore, they were puzzled over the fact that I knew the Holy Bible better than they did. Afterwards they began to show great respect for me.


In those days, I found a book prepared by a Protestant missionary priest. The name of that book was How to Make Muslims Christian written by a missionary named Geo G.Harris. That book contains the following advice: 'It is very difficult to make Muslims Christian. Muslims respect their traditions and they are very inflexible. In order to make them Christian, it is necessary to apply these three methods:


1) The Muslims have been taught that the original Holy Bible was changed and corrupted. You should immediately ask them the questions below:


a) Have you got a copy of the real Torah and the Bible in your hand? If you have, please show it to us!


b) What sort of differences are there between today's Torah and Bible and the original ones which you claim to be true? Where are they and how many?


c) Do you think these contradictions were inserted deliberately or are they merely differences of expression?


d) Now, I shall give you a Holy Bible; show me the alterations in it.


e) How would you read this particular verse in its original form?


2) When and by whom were those verses falsified and corrupted?


3) Muslims believe that the Holy Bible we have is either a false book similar to the original one or another book written by human beings. According to the Muslims, the Bible that we have today has no connection with the actual Bible that Hadrat Jesus Christ conveyed. But, they will be confused if they are asked the questions above. Most of the Muslims are ignorant. Their opinion, which is that 'Today's Bible is not the real Bible,' is the understanding they obtained by chance, not only about the Bible, they even lack enough understanding about their own religion. When they are asked a few serious questions, they will be confused, and will not be able to find a convenient answer. Then, tell them, 'Let me give you some information on this matter' and begin to read, with a smiling face, a low voice and soft words, some attractive sections of the Holy Bible, which should be easy for them to understand. You should give them some books or brochures, free of charge, written in a clear language, which is easy to understand about the virtues of Christianity. You should never insist on their being a Christian. You should always leave time for them to think first and then make up their minds. If you act in this manner, surely, you will be able to make them Christian. At least, you will cause them to have suspicion in their brains.' " The same person continues:


"I believe that if the Muslims read my book about Christianity and today's Bible, which is published in English, they will be able to easily answer the questions above by Geo G.Harris, I myself after striving for just twenty years, have uncovered a lot of defects in today's Torah and Bible and have disclosed the fact that it has not been Allah's book. Not only me, but also Christian scientists and theologists themselves have the same conclusion. However, to be able to read the books and articles written by them, it is necessary to know foreign languages. Most of the Muslims do not speak a foreign language and they usually do not have enough money to buy expensive books. For that reason, in order to serve Muslims, I have been publishing my booklets in the languages known by Muslims and have distributed some of them as presents."


That is why we, too, are taking part in this great service of revealing the inner face of Christianity together with some Christian scientists, for the sake of our Muslim brothers.


A missionary says:


"Trying to convert the Muslims into Christians is deemed to be a very good deed by those who are either Protestant or Catholic. They say it is very difficult to make Muslims Christian. First of all, the Muslims respect their traditions immensely. However, missionaries believe the facts below can produce very good results:


1) Muslims are usually poor people. Therefore, if you give them money, presents, some goods, or if you find him a job with a Christian, surely that poor Muslims will be prompted to become a Christian.


2) Most of the Muslims are ignorant in religious and scientific matters. They have knowledge about neither the Holy Bible nor the Qur'an al-karim. They blindly practice the method of worship which was shown to them; hence, they do not understand anything and they do not know what real worshipping is. Since the majority of them do not know the Arabic language, they know nothing about the contents of the Qur'an al-karim, nor of the detailed information in the books of Islamic scholars. They recite some passages which they have memorized without knowing their meanings. As to the Holy Bible, they know nothing about it. Most of the men of religion who leads them are not Islamic scholars. They teach only how to worship. They cannot influence their students. Consequently, the Muslims brought up in this way worship as they were shown, without knowing anything about the fundamentals of their religion. Their faith has nothing to do with understanding the fundamentals of Islam. Their faith is predicated upon a stubbornness about not leaving the things that they have learned from their teachers and parents.


3) Most of the Muslims do not know another language, except their mother tongue. Let alone reading the books which were written for or against Christianity, they do not even know of the existence of such books. You should give them lots of books written in their own language which praises Christianity heavily. While giving these books, be careful that the material is simple and clear enough to be understood by them. Books which consist of complex expressions and philosophy will prove useless. They will not understand these things, and as a result of becoming bored while reading them, they will throw them away. Simple words, simple sentences and simple expressions, which are not boring, are necessary. Do not forget that the men in front of you are very primitive and their brains can only understand very simple concepts.


4) Continuously tell them: Since the Christians and the Muslims believe in Allahu ta'ala their Lord is the same. But, Allahu ta'ala accepts Christianity as the true religion. This has been clearly proven. Consider this: as you see, the richest, the most civilized, the happiest people in the world are the Christians. This is because Allahu ta'ala prefers them over the Muslims who are on the wrong path. While Islamic countries are in poverty and indigence, while they are begging for aid from the Christian countries, and while they are behind in science and technology, Christian countries have reached the highest degrees of civilization and they are continuously progressing everyday. A countless number of Muslims have been rushing to Christian countries in order to find jobs. Christians are superior to Muslims in science and technology, in trade, in industry, in short, in every field. You can see this with your own eyes. All of this indicates that Allahu ta'ala does not consider the Islamic religion a true religion. He wants to show you through this reality that it is an artificial religion. In order to punish those who left Christianity, which is the true religion, Allah will always leave them in a miserable, despicable and ruined condition."


Thus, with these untrue words, missionaries are trying to deceive Muslims in order to convert them to Christianity. Since they have a lot of money, they have been spending it mostly for this purpose. They have been striving to fascinate and corrupt the Muslims by way of establishing institutions, hospitals, free kitchens, schools, gymnasiums, amusement parks, gambling-houses and prostitution houses.


In our time by using sweet and fascinating words, Christians called "Jehovah Witnesses" are trying to deceive Muslim children in order to convert them into Christians. After publishing brochures and booklets, they mail them to addresses taken out of telephone directories. Furthermore, beautiful girls, who are smartly and carefully dressed, are giving those booklets out by going from door to door. It is stated in the latest edition of the Arabic dictionary Al-Munjid, printed in 1908 by the printing house Matba'at-ul-Catholiciyye that was established in Beirut in 1296 (1879): "The new Jehovah Witnesses sect was first introduced in the United States in 1872 by Toharls Roussel. He derived wrong interpretations from the Bible and died in 1334 (1916). Yahwa is a name referring to Allahu ta'ala, which is written in the Torah." Therefore, it is understood through this Christian book that this sect is corrupt and that the word "Jehovah" is an error. Praise be to Allahu ta'ala that the Muslims cannot be deceived by their gilded and dishonest words. On the contrary, such efforts increase the hatred and the suspicion in their hearts. All praise be to Allah, the Most High. The Muslims are not as ignorant as they suppose. Yes, forty or fifty years ago, the number of Muslims who knew one of the European languages, or who graduated from universities was quite small. But, in their place, there were elementary schools and madrasahs in every country, every city and even in every village. In those madrasahs, the astronomical, scientific and mathematical subjects of that time were being taught, as well as religious subjects. The books and curriculums of those madrasahs, left from that time, are the proofs for our explanations. It is necessary for Muslims to be competent in mathematics in order to build mosques and schools, to calculate zakat, to properly distribute inheritances, to keep accounts for companies and foundations. The parents of former times used to compete with each other in order to send their children to these schools. While registering at these madrasahs, magnificent, splendid ceremonies were held and they used to give a feast. Their gilded suits with gold and silver threads, their valuable handbags, ornamented stage coaches, and the reciting of mavlids were the means by which they expressed their esteem for knowledge. The prospects of getting an exemption from military service, or receiving an appointment to a high post for those who graduated from the madrasahs with high grades inspired the youth to rush to school. Even shepherds living in villages had a great deal of knowledge about morals and religion. This fortunate situation went on like this, until the year 1250 (1839 A.D.) when the Ottoman reformation (the law of Tanzimat) was put into effect. It had been prepared by Mustapha Rashid Pasha, who was a freemason and the minister of foreign affairs, to undermine Islam.


Today, the Muslims have hundreds of books which explain the fundamentals of the Islamic religion. What a great blessings for us that it has been an enormous honor to prepare some of these books. Our books, including this one, Islam and Christianity, are written with a simple style. We have tried to use the "sweet tongue," which is an expression used by Westerners for their Christian books. All of our books contain what the greatest scholars from Western and Eastern countries think of Islam and Christianity. We have sent some of our books all over the world after having translated them into European languages. We feel pride when we see that they have had a positive effect, not only in Turkey, but in the rest of the world as well. The letters we have been receiving from all over the world, written to thank and to express appreciation, make us forget the troubles we went through in order to prepare them. We cannot imagine a reward greater than those words written in most of the letters we have received: "By reading your books, I have learned true Islam." Every Muslim who has an opportunity to read these books can easily answer those people who ask him questions about any religion, and they will cause them to admire their knowledge on the subject.


After learning about true Islam, no one can help himself from being attracted to Islam, A Muslim who has already read my books will simply laugh at missionary propaganda. The words they utter about Christianity bringing welfare, wealth, abundance and happiness are not true. Let alone serving to develop, to civilize, and to enrich a country; on the contrary, it has been witnessed that Christianity prevented such developments during the Middle Ages. Fanatical Christians prevented progress; they deemed everything to be a sin, asserting that human beings came to this world only to suffer. They destroyed the works of the Roman and Greek scientists; they demolished the remains of the old civilizations; they darkened and ruined the world. After the appearance of Islam, and its spreading throughout the world, the works of the old civilizations were brought to light. Having been improved upon with the new discoveries developed by the Muslims, the old scientific concepts were taught again. Islamic universities were founded, industry and trade developed, and mankind attained peace and comfort. During the Middle Ages, since knowledge, science and medicine existed only in Islamic countries, Pope Silvester II attended the Andalusian Islamic University. Sancho, who was one of the Kings of Spain, consulted Muslim doctors for the treatment of his illness. The founders of the "Renaissance," which was a brilliant new period, were Muslims. Today, all those Western scientists with integrity have been admitting this reality.


The well-known German philosopher Nietzche best expressed what Christianity brought mankind:


"The wish and the doctrine of the Christians to present the world to people as ugly and bad has really made the world ugly and bad."


As to the second assertion of the missionaries, that is: "Today, Christians are wealthy, but the people of the Muslim countries are poor and miserable." It is true, but there is no connection between this fact and the religion of Islam. Anyone who is reasonable can see that if the Muslims are poor and miserable, their great religion is not at fault. The guilty ones are those who do not know the fundamentals of their religion or who, in spite of their knowledge, do not practice it. The development of the Christian world in science is not due to the Holy Bible, but it is because of their unceasing efforts, their honesty and perseverance. In reality, they have been following the Qur'an al-karim in spite of the fact that they do not believe in it. Since working, being honest, and learning as much as possible are continuously enjoined in our religion, those who do not obey these commands will certainly be punished by Allahu ta'ala. The reason why the Muslim world remained undeveloped is not because they were not Christians; on the contrary, it was because they were not perfect Muslims.


look at the Japanese! Although they are not Christian, as a result of their diligence, industriousness and honesty, they have surpassed the Germans in optics and the Americans in the automobile industry. Japan has surprised the world with its yearly car production of 5.5 million in 1985. Japanese people are living a comfortable life. They are leaders in the electronic industry, too. All of us have Japanese calculating machines in our homes. What do those lying missionaries say about this reality? Is there any connection between Christianity and Japanese bicycles, microscopes, typewriters, telescopes, and cameras all of which are widely used in the world.


We shall discuss this matter again later on, and we shall re-examine the things that devout Muslims must do.


O! Dear readers! You have already seen today's Holy Bible. We have examined this book briefly before your eyes. Surely, you have confidence in our impartiality. Now, it is time to examine the Qur'an al-karim, which is the holy book of Islam. Together, we will examine it impartially in the same way. After we finish this examination, you will see clearly, once again, which book is the word of Allahu ta'ala.




FOOTNOTES

(36) 1 bath=37 liters or approximately 40 quarts.


(37) Qastalani, passed away in Egypt in 923 (1517 A.D.).


(38) Rahmat-allah Effendi passed away in Mecca in 1306 (1889) when he was 75. His famous book Idharul Haq was printed in Egypt in 1280 (1864) and translated into many languages, including Turkish.
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Trumble
06-08-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by selma1

The well-known German philosopher Nietzche best expressed what Christianity brought mankind:


"The wish and the doctrine of the Christians to present the world to people as ugly and bad has really made the world ugly and bad."


Do you know why Nietzche is so "well known"? Perhaps the main reason is not only that he was an atheist, but he was perhaps the most notorious atheist in the entire history of philosophy. Like many other philosophers you need to consider what he wrote in the appropriate personal, historical and cultural context. To him "religion" was pretty much synonymous with "Christianity", and his views on Islam and any other religion would have been much the same.

As to "errors" in the Bible, they have been discussed ad nauseam both by philosophers and theologians over centuries, and on this board. Without going over very old ground, the summary response is simply that the Bible is not the same sort of book as the Qur'an. Is is a collection of works, initially transmitted by word-of-mouth, written by many different authors over the best part of a millennium. It is hardly surprising there are omissions, "errors" and contradictions - Christians are not bothered by those even with some apparent substance (most are irrelevant trivia). There is no claim (and to non-muslims, it IS only a "claim") that the Bible is the direct Word of God, only that it's authors were guided by Him.

As to the rest of the article, which amounts to little more than an attack on Christianity, the best argumentary response is a similar (minded, if not in content) attack on Islam, but this is clearly not the place to do that. Such articles convince nobody who wasn't convinced before they started reading them.
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Crescent
06-08-2006, 09:13 PM
The Bible claimed that the world was flat, like a coin.
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/febible.htm

That is one major error.
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Trumble
06-08-2006, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Crescent
The Bible claimed that the world was flat, like a coin.
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/febible.htm

That is one major error.


15:19 "We have spread out the earth and set upon it immovable mountains"


So is that (and there are several other references in the same vein), at least if you are judging on the basis of what geologists believe!


The point is that neither "error" is "major", or indeed of any importance at all. Navigators, astronauts, geologists and mountaineers don't consult Bible or Qur'an - at least in the context of getting where they want to go. Both books are about who we are, how we should live, and how we should get on with each other, not some sort of obscure scientific almanac.
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Umar001
06-08-2006, 10:03 PM
Im confused:
015.016
YUSUFALI: It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;
PICKTHAL: And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for beholders.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.

=


15:16 "We have spread out the earth and set upon it immovable mountains"

??

Anyhow there is similar scripture to that..I still fail to see how that says the earth is flat though.

Anyhow, moving on the article is so so long, and it would be interestng to see if the poster read it all, and if not have u told us?

Are you expecting people to read it all? Inshallah I might do tomorow.

Peace
Reply

Crescent
06-08-2006, 10:05 PM
Bible suports Earth is flat

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Bible supports Earth doesnt move

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

Bible claims Earth was supported by pillars

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

Bible claims the Earth has edges

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

Bible claims Earth is a "circle" but not "spherical

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)"


ANY GEOLOGIST WOULD DISAGREE WITH ALL THIS.
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yasin
06-08-2006, 10:08 PM
alot of your points crescent are understandable but assuming that what is said is 100% literally in the Bible

peace
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Crescent
06-08-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by yasin
alot of your points crescent are understandable but assuming that what is said is 100% literally in the Bible

peace
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Not only CAN we take the Bible literally, but we MUST take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us
Peace.
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Trumble
06-08-2006, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
I still fail to see how that says the earth is flat though.
I didn't mean to imply it did; sorry if I wasn't clear. All I was saying is that, in relation to current scientific knowledge it is an "error"; mountains were not "set upon the earth" and are not "immovable" - by the forces of nature, anyway. In fairness, I recall the Qur'an actually supports the latter point somewhere, something like "mountains moving as do the clouds in the sky", or words to that effect?
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Umar001
06-08-2006, 11:03 PM
Trumble sis, I dont know at the moment, im abit drowsy abit late here lol

oh and outa curiosity did u check the reference?
cos mine didnt say whatu said
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Trumble
06-09-2006, 05:37 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
oh and outa curiosity did u check the reference?
cos mine didnt say whatu said

Oops, 15:19. Sorry. Forgot to count into the paragraph.
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duskiness
06-09-2006, 07:18 AM
Thats such a funny subject! :)

Bible supports that God started creating world on sunday - see Genesis Crescent ;)

And Selma1 - why didn't You start finding mistakes in Bibile from the beginig?? Open on first page - You should find 2 different accounts about creation of man and woman!

My point is- 1) someone who wrote (and those who edited this book after him) had no problem with this "contradiction". 2) christian DO know about mistakes in their Bible - and still they believe (i hope You dont think that make them all idiots) :)

Bible for christians is not the same as Quran for Muslim. We treat those Books diffrently. Once - when i was begining to learn about Islam and i said "Quran is their Bible" - my teacher told me "No, it so much more for them! If you want to compare it, then only with Jesus Christ". And today i agree with this.
Quran & Jesus are "Words of God" (see J1). They are both foundations of our faiths. And they are links between God and us.

And one more thing. There are many non-muslims who starts reading Quran, goes to 2 sura, finds "beat your wife" and starts screaming "Barbarians! Criminals!". They are not bothered with islams history, law, hermeneutics, tradition. Muslims are right when they say "Learn!, and than start to read once more". But that's also true with other holy books.
So - because of mutal respect - please apply same rule to reading Bible.

Salaam all.
natalia
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selma1
06-09-2006, 10:19 AM
All the things which we wonder about islam we can find [link removed]
sincerly:)
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Umar001
06-09-2006, 11:25 AM
surah 4 i think it is.

Anyhow, not all Christians have this view point that the bible contains contradictions or mistakes.

The Christians I know, reject this idea, some of them totally reject it some dont. When you have SOME Christians going around claiming that their scripture is the word of G-d then I guess that is why others spend their time finding inconsistences in them.
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duskiness
06-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Don't get me wrong. Bible is the Holy Book for me. And it is faultless as a source of truth about God and salvation. But it is not a handbook from which one can learn history, physics or biology.
And I'm not such an exception:
"In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current" - from Catechism of Catholic Church (Catholic church - the biggest and oldest denomination there is...)
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Umar001
06-09-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
Don't get me wrong. Bible is the Holy Book for me. And it is faultless as a source of truth about God and salvation. But it is not a handbook from which one can learn history, physics or biology.
And I'm not such an exception:
"In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current" - from Catechism of Catholic Church (Catholic church - the biggest and oldest denomination there is...)

I dont think anyone claims it is a book to learn anything from. (biology and so on)

But what the view point of most people is, those you 'find mistakes', it is that since the book is the word of G-d it should not contradict or have mistakes in it.

And that is no matter the time or place in which it was revealed in.

Thats all nothing about whether we should learn biology or geology from the Bible.

Peace be upon yall
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submit
06-09-2006, 08:07 PM
:sl:

i willl just bump in to say that the Christian religion itself has errors. The Bible has fewer errors. It is the fault that they do not follow their religion from the Bible.

Look at these verses:

Old Testament: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

New Testament: Mark 12:29 "The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Therefore God cannot be three. He is One. Not three. Also notice how Jesus said "our God" indicating that Jesus has a God. I doubt supergod exists...

What do you think of that?
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:05 PM
We often get questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!” Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer. However, there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error. There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.” Most people simply get their ammunition from these places – they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and websites available that refute each and every last one of these supposed errors. The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer – all they want to do is attack. Many "Bible attackers" are even aware of the answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

If you read the Bible, at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors – you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if we do not have the answer right now, that does not mean the answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:05 PM
Therefore God cannot be three. He is One. Not three. Also notice how Jesus said "our God" indicating that Jesus has a God. I doubt supergod exists...
Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.
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Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:12 PM
So, I guess its confirmed that the Bible actually does claim that the world is flat and had edges.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:15 PM
So, I guess its confirmed that the Bible actually does claim that the world is flat and had edges.
hi mate welcome, i see its your first post.
If you make a point, it will be better if you give refferences or reasons for it to back it up.

God bless
Reply

Muezzin
06-09-2006, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
So, I guess its confirmed that the Bible actually does claim that the world is flat and had edges.
But there are edges. I have to trim them every six months!

:p
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Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:20 PM
Some further contradictions include:

* No one has ever seen God, John 1:18 versus Jacob saw God's face, Genesis 32:30 and Moses saw God's back, Exodus 33:23

* Jesus carries his own cross, John 19:17 versus Simon carries Jesus's cross, Mark 15:21-22

* Earth will exist forever, Ecclesiastes 1:4 versus Earth will end at Armageddon, 2 Peter 3:10

* If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

* Love your enemies versus But to bring a sword.

In addition, its comon knowledge that Bible is incompatible with science.

The Bible supports inferior treatment of women, inequality, beating of slaves, and violence. Unlike the Koran though, nothing is taken out of context.

I am currently writing a book exposing the truth of Christianity, through Biblical and historical contexts.

Peace.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:21 PM
Because the Bible seemingly contains errors therefore the Bible is not God's word. The Qur'an on the other hand is free from discrepancies and this is proof that the Qur'an is from God since Sura 4:82 states:


Do they not ponder on the Qur'an?
Had it been from other than Allah,
they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

But reality is not as simple as many would want us believe.
There are three basic categories of contradictions in the Qur'an

I will go on to name these contradictions if any muslim, or even christian wishes me to.
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Ghazi
06-09-2006, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Because the Bible seemingly contains errors therefore the Bible is not God's word. The Qur'an on the other hand is free from discrepancies and this is proof that the Qur'an is from God since Sura 4:82 states:


Do they not ponder on the Qur'an?
Had it been from other than Allah,
they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

But reality is not as simple as many would want us believe.
There are three basic categories of contradictions in the Qur'an

I will go on to name these contradictions if any muslim, or even christian wishes me to.
:sl:

Go ahead
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Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
hi mate welcome, i see its your first post.
If you make a point, it will be better if you give refferences or reasons for it to back it up.

God bless
It has already been posted in the first page of this thread.

Originally Posted by Crescent
Bible suports Earth is flat

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Bible supports Earth doesnt move

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 93:1)"

"Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 96:10)"

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

Bible claims Earth was supported by pillars

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

Bible claims the Earth has edges

"that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"

Bible claims Earth is a "circle" but not "spherical

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)"


ANY GEOLOGIST WOULD DISAGREE WITH ALL THIS.
Peace.
Reply

Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
But reality is not as simple as many would want us believe.
There are three basic categories of contradictions in the Qur'an
I hope its not one of those random quotes which have been refuted hundreds of times.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:36 PM
In Sura 34:50, Muhammad is commanded to say the following:

Say: ‘If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss; if I am guided, it is by what my Lord reveals to me. He is All-hearing, Ever-nigh.’ Arberry

Say: "If (even) I go astray, I shall stray only to my own loss. But if I remain guided, it is because of the Inspiration of my Lord to me. Truly, He is All­Hearer, Ever Near (to all things)." Hilali & Khan

The error in this verse should be obvious to anyone pondering this statement for a little bit. The issue here is not whether, objectively, Muhammad went astray or was guided; Muslims and non-Muslims will continue to disagree about that. This verse is logically wrong, independent of whether Muhammad was guided or not.

The Error

Who suffered and still suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong?

The first point is somewhat trivial. Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to take Muhammad as their model, and therefore many Muslims imitate him in the smallest details of life. They dress like Muhammad, they use a miswak to brush their teeth like Muhammad did, etc. If Muhammad was wrong, then this would mean a life of unnecessary inconvenience for millions of Muslims.

I will leave you this one and let you comment, by the way i am not taking these from the top of my head, i am copying as i read them.

So i will give yous time to comment on each one, instead of writing a bundle as some of you do to us :)

God bless
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Ghazi
06-09-2006, 10:38 PM
:sl:

Where's the error.
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Skillganon
06-09-2006, 10:39 PM
I think such thread does not do any benefit to anyone.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 10:46 PM
Ok, here is the link to a list of contradictions, it explains each one in full.

http://---------------------/Quran/Contra/#internal
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Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
http://---------------------/Quran/Contra/#internal
That is a crappy website. Maybe YOU should read this instead:

www.answering-christianity.org

btw, everything in the site you posted has been refuted numerous times. Its up to you to do the research.

The quotes I've provided (regarding Earth is flat and the contradictions) have not been answered by any of your belived Christian websites.

Since you cannot explain them, do you acknowledge that the contradictions and that the world is flat?

I can literally post hundreds of problems in the Bible, but its not somthing worth my time right now.
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Ghazi
06-09-2006, 10:53 PM
:sl:

Answering islam. I won't read from a biased opionion.
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Immunity
06-09-2006, 10:54 PM
All the content in that answering Islam site has been beated to the ground.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 11:10 PM
lol yous cease to amaze me.

And immunity, i havnt read all that about the flat earth, but i will.

And this conversation is pointless, theres nothing u can say that will make me doubt the bible is Gods word, many times have i been questioned about it and every time God have given me an answer. Besides, it isnt the bible that saved me, or it wasnt reading it that convinced me that it was the truth, it was asking Jesus into my life as Lord and saviour that turned my mess of a life around in an instince, and that my friends, no1 can take away.

But its late,

I dare you to ask Jesus who he really is :)

God bless
Reply

Skillganon
06-09-2006, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
In Sura 34:50, Muhammad is commanded to say the following:

Say: ‘If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss; if I am guided, it is by what my Lord reveals to me. He is All-hearing, Ever-nigh.’ Arberry

Say: "If (even) I go astray, I shall stray only to my own loss. But if I remain guided, it is because of the Inspiration of my Lord to me. Truly, He is All*Hearer, Ever Near (to all things)." Hilali & Khan

The error in this verse should be obvious to anyone pondering this statement for a little bit. The issue here is not whether, objectively, Muhammad went astray or was guided; Muslims and non-Muslims will continue to disagree about that. This verse is logically wrong, independent of whether Muhammad was guided or not.

The Error

Who suffered and still suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong?

The first point is somewhat trivial. Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to take Muhammad as their model, and therefore many Muslims imitate him in the smallest details of life. They dress like Muhammad, they use a miswak to brush their teeth like Muhammad did, etc. If Muhammad was wrong, then this would mean a life of unnecessary inconvenience for millions of Muslims.

I will leave you this one and let you comment, by the way i am not taking these from the top of my head, i am copying as i read them.

So i will give yous time to comment on each one, instead of writing a bundle as some of you do to us

God bless
and I know Where you got this info from. answering-Islam.
You can search this proposition in the "christian forum" in the "non-christian religion" section, and you will find my explanation of it. It might be burried under other threads.

but let me point out the type of argument proposed.

i.e. the error in the author's argument itself.

The error in this verse should be obvious to anyone pondering this statement for a little bit. .
Stating sentence like the "error should be obviouse" is not an argument as the author has failed to show where the error is, neither have you.


The issue here is not whether, objectively, Muhammad went astray or was guided; Muslims and non-Muslims will continue to disagree about that.
Another proposition he make's by saying that "muslim and non-muslim disagree over this. This is also not an argument or evidence for the error as the author has failed to show and reasoning behind it. Although I admit it is a clever way to fool people especially a lay non-muslim, by setting in their mind their is somekind of phantom error.

The Error

Who suffered and still suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong?
This either show's the author is either perplex, he does not understand or making a phantom argument out of nothing but importantly it has not shown so far where the error is in the quote itself.

The first point is somewhat trivial. Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to take Muhammad as their model, and therefore many Muslims imitate him in the smallest details of life. They dress like Muhammad, they use a miswak to brush their teeth like Muhammad did, etc. If Muhammad was wrong, then this would mean a life of unnecessary inconvenience for millions of Muslims.
Now the the author is making a seperate argument, and applying it to the first quote from the "translation of the quran". The athour has clearly failed to show where in the above statement Muhhamed(pbuh) was wrong (which the word he clearly does not use) or more importantly in error?
Next the author has failed to show where a normal muslim who does not "exactly dressing like" or "brushes teeth with a miswak" is in error?
Neither has the author stated where and how this constitute as straying.

The argument itself is illogical since the author has failed to show any evidence, for his statement as how the statement itself is in error.

This type of argument is weak and bear's the mentally of the author behind it.
"Bring something better."

Peace Skillganon.
Reply

selma1
06-09-2006, 11:15 PM
from www.serenityfountain.org

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Could_not_Answer/16.htm

ISA 'alaihis-salam[JESUS] IS A PROPHET HE IS NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED

Imam-i Fakhr-ud-din Razi 'rahmatullahi alaih', a great Islamic 'Alim, and the author of the book (Tafsir-i kabir) and many other valuable books, gives the following account in his interpretation of the sixty-first ayat al-karima of Al-i-'imran sura:

I was in the city of Harazm. I heard that a priest had come to the city and was trying to spread Christianity. I went to him. We began to talk. He asked me, "What is the evidence showing that Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' is the Prophet?" ' gave the following answer:

Fakhr-ud-din Razi - As there are narratives reporting that Musa, Isa and other Prophets 'alaihimus- salam' display wonders and miracles, so it has been reported that Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' displayed miracles. These reports are in forms of narratives. You either accept or refuse reports coming in forms of narratives. If you refuse them and say that a miracle does not prove a person's prophethood, then you should also deny the other Prophets whose miracles have been reported to us through narratives. If you admit the truth of the reports coming through narratives and believe that a person who has displayed miracles is a Prophet, then you should accept also that Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' is a Prophet. For Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' displayed miracles, which have been reported to us through authentic narratives called (Tawatur). Since you believe other Prophets' prophethood because of the miracles reported through narratives, you should believe that Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' is the Prophet!

The priest - I believe that Isa 'alaihis-salam' is a god, not a Prophet.

[God means mabud (that which, or who, is, or is to be, worshipped). Anything which is worshipped is called a god. The name of Allahu ta'ala is Allah, not God. There is no ilah (god) besides Allahu ta'ala. It would be a very vile mistake to say 'God' instead of 'Allah'].

Fakhr-ud-din Razi - We are talking about prophethood now. We have to settle the question of prophethood before passing on to divinity. Moreover, you are wrong to say that Isa 'alaihis-salam' is a god. For a god has to exist always. Material beings, objects, things that occupy spaces cannot be gods. And Isa 'alaihis-salam' was matter, human. He came into existence from nonexistence and was, according to you, killed. He was a child and grew up. He ate and drank. He spoke as we do. He would go to bed, sleep, wake up, and walk. Like any other human being, he needed a number of things to live. Could a person in need ever be Ghani (who is in possession of everything)? Could something that came into existence from nothing, exist eternally? Could something that changes be everlasting, eternal?

You say that Isa 'alaihis-salam' ran away and hid himself but the Jews arrested him and hanged him. You say that Isa 'alaihis-salam' was very sad then and had recourse to various ways to escape. If he had been a god or if a piece of God had entered him, would not he have defended himself against the Jews and even destroyed them? Why did he feel sad and look for a place to hide himself? I would swear on the name of Allah that this paradox appalls me. How could a reasonable person make or believe these statements? Reason testifies against these statements.

You have three different assertions:

1 - You say that he is a visible, substantial god. To say that the god of the universe is Isa 'alaihis-salam', the substantial god incarnate, would mean to say that the Jews killed the god of the universe, since (you believe that) they killed him (Isa 'alaihis-salam'). In that case the universe must have been deprived of its god, which is impossible. Furthermore, is it possible for a weakling whom the Jews arrested and killed unjustly to have been the god of the universe?

Another fact reported through narratives is that Isa 'alaihis-salam' worshipped Allahu ta'ala very much and was very much fond of praying. If Isa 'alaihis-salam' were a god, he would not worship or pray. For a god will never worship himself. [On the contrary, others will worship him].

This is another evidence showing that the priest is wrong.

2 - You say that God has entered him completely and (therefore) he is the Son of God. This belief is wrong. For God cannot be an object or an attribute. It is impossible for God to enter an object. If God were an object He would enter another object. When something enters an object it will become an object and the components of the two objects will be mixed with each other. And this, in its turn, will mean God's being broken. If God were an attribute, then He would need a space, a place, which would mean God's needing something. And he who needs something cannot be a god. [What was the reason for God's entering Isa 'alaihis-salam'? His entering Isa 'alaihis-salam' without any reason to do so would mean tarjih-i-bi-la murej-jih, which, as we have explained while proving the unity of Allahu ta'ala, is out of the question].

3 - You say that he is not a god but a part of God has entered him and settled in him. If the part which (is supposed to have) entered him were a component part of God, then God should have completely lost His capacity of being God with the departure of that component part. If that part did not have any function in God's being God, then it should not have been a part from God. Hence, God has not entered him.

Now, what is your other evidence to prove that Isa 'alaihis-salam' was a god?

The priest - He is a god because he resuscitated the dead, opened the eyes of people who were blind from birth, and cured the disease called leprosy resulting in itchy patches on the skin. Only God could make such things.

Fakhr-ur-din Razi - Could it be asserted that when there is no evidence for the existence of something it must be nonexistent? If you say that absence of evidence proves non-existence of the thing whose existence would otherwise be inferred from the evidence, it will mean to say that the Creator of the universe did not exist before creating the universe, that is, in the eternal past. And this inference, in its turn, is quite wrong. For the universe [all creatures] is an evidence for the existence of the Creator.

If you say that absence of evidence does not necessarily mean nonexistence of the thing whose existence were to be inferred from the evidence, you will have accepted the existence of the Creator in eternity, when creatures did not exist yet. On the other hand, if you say that God entered Isa 'alaihis-salam' in eternity, when he was nonexistent, you will need evidence to prove it. Otherwise, you will have accepted it without evidence. For Isa 'alaihis-salam' was created afterwards. His nonexistence in eternity shows nonexistence of evidence. Since you believe without evidence that God entered Isa 'alaihis-salam', how do you know He did not enter me, you, animals, plants, stones? Why don't you believe without evidence that He entered all these things?

The priest - It is obvious that God entered Isa 'alaihis-salam' and He did not enter you, me, or other beings. You, I, or other beings did not display such wonders. We infer from this that He entered him, and not us or other beings.

Fakhr-ud-din Razi - You assert that Isa's 'alaihis-salam' displaying miracles is an evidence for God's having entered him. Why do you say that absence of evidence, that is, not displaying miracles, shows that God should not have entered. You cannot say that God will not enter you, me, or other creatures because we do not have wonders or miracles. For we have already proved that absence of evidence does not necessarily mean that something does not exist. Accordingly, God's entering something does not have to do with the appearing of wonders and miracles. Then, you will have to believe also that God has entered me, you, cats, dogs, mice. Now, could a religious system which leads to believing that God has entered these humble creatures ever be a true religion?

It is more difficult to make a viper or a serpent from a rod than it is to resuscitate a dead person. For a rod and a serpent are in no way similar. You believe that Musa 'alaihis-salam' transformed the rod into a viper and yet do not call him 'God' or 'Son of God.' Why do you call Isa 'alaihis-salam' 'God' or ascribe divinity to him?

Unable to find an answer to this argumentation of mine, the priest had to remain silent. This chapter has been translated from the (Turkish) book (Se'adet-i Ebediyye).
O priest! We wish that you explain the belief systems of these two religions to philosophers who do not belong to either religion or to other wise and reasonable people, ask them which of these two religions they find logical, factual and beautiful, and be true to your advice, "One should compare the two religions, and then accept the one which is beautiful," which you suggest in your book (Ghada-ul-mulahazat).

Allahu ta'ala, alone, will grant guidance and assistance.

In order to mislead Muslims and Christianize them, priests wrote many books. The Islamic 'Ulama wrote answers to the lies in these books, and thus protected Muslims from falling into the pit of Christianity. One of these answers is the Turkish book (Izah-ul-Maram), which was written by Abdullah Abdi bin Destan Mustafa 'rahmatullahi alaihima' and was published in Istanbul in 1288 [A.D. 1871]. He was from Manastir (Bitolj), and passed away in 1303 [A.D. 1896].
Reply

Immunity
06-09-2006, 11:17 PM
Thanks for the explanation, skillganon. Again, such random quotes have been refuted numerous times.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
And immunity, i havnt read all that about the flat earth, but i will.
There are numerous scientific errors, that is just one :)

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
And this conversation is pointless, theres nothing u can say that will make me doubt the bible is Gods word, many times have i been questioned about it and every time God have given me an answer. Besides, it isnt the bible that saved me, or it wasnt reading it that convinced me that it was the truth, it was asking Jesus into my life as Lord and saviour that turned my mess of a life around in an instince, and that my friends, no1 can take away.
I am not trying to influence your beliefs. However, the Bible is very ambiguous in describing Jesus's relation to God.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
I dare you to ask Jesus
He is a prophet of God. Nothing more.
Reply

4-Christ-Alone
06-09-2006, 11:26 PM
I dare you.

good night
Reply

Immunity
06-10-2006, 01:11 AM
Yeah, run away. What else can you do? You cannot protect lies.
Reply

duskiness
06-10-2006, 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I think such thread does not do any benefit to anyone.
so true.

And once more I would like to add: we don't treat Bilble like You do your Quran.
Bible was written by men. Over ages. It is inspired, but in the end thats just a book. A thing. It wasn't send down by God. He didn't need to do that - He came down here by himself, a spoke with people face to face. And Jesus was the Word of God (not a book, not a thing, but God Himself)
Reply

Eric H
06-10-2006, 04:25 AM
Greetings and peace Crescent;
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
I feel quite happy that there were messages about the four corners of the Earth, I feel this type of language was used in a descriptive way to put across some other message.

Maybe you have to look at the understanding of the people at the times the Bible was written. Just imagine a prophet holding up an orange and saying this is the shape of the Earth, and we are living near the equator and points to that part on the orange
The man says don’t be daft if we lived on a ball shaped object we would fall off.
The prophet then goes on to explain gravity to the man
Right says the man I should get the feeling of walking up and down at right angles to the Earth and there is some invisible force field holding me onto this orange shaped Earth, but the Earth is flat here.
The prophet then goes on to explain about the size of the Earth and that people in Australia are not standing upside down

The man would be justified in saying, if you cannot show me proof that the Earth is round, so then I will not believe anything else you say.

There are many place in the Bible were analogies are used, but analogies by their very description cannot be totally accurate, and often you can find several analogies for the same thing.

Jesus described heaven in many ways he used words like a sheep pen, wedding feast, vinyard, so that people would have some idea of the concept of heaven.

Were the messages of prophets more to do with giving science lessons or teaching people about God?

In the spirit of searching other faiths with kindness

Eric
Reply

submit
06-10-2006, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
We often get questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!” Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer. However, there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error. There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.” Most people simply get their ammunition from these places – they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and websites available that refute each and every last one of these supposed errors. The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer – all they want to do is attack. Many "Bible attackers" are even aware of the answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.
No i am not attacking for fun. I simplyl want to know why the Bible claims thet trinity is non-existant.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
If you read the Bible, at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors – you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if we do not have the answer right now, that does not mean the answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.
It does not matter how many humans wrote the Bible, when they wrote the Bible. Because the Bible is the Words of God inspired.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?
I believe you are wrong. Look at John 10 in more detail:

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

They are one in purpose. They cannot be one in being, because verse 29 says "my father is greater than all" as in 'my dad who is not me, is the best!'. Noone will pluck them out of Jesus' hand nor God's. They are one in purpose.

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

We can see here that the Jews misunderstood Jesus (as usual e.g. eating his flesh).

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—


John 17:20-22 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

So mankind is also one with God. We are not divine.

36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Then he says "why do you accuse me of blamsphemy? i never said i was god. i said i was God's son". And other people have been God's


John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.
Reply

submit
06-10-2006, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
We often get questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!” Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer. However, there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error. There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.” Most people simply get their ammunition from these places – they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and websites available that refute each and every last one of these supposed errors. The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer – all they want to do is attack. Many "Bible attackers" are even aware of the answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.
No i am not attacking for fun. I simplyl want to know why the Bible claims thet trinity is non-existant.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
If you read the Bible, at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors – you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if we do not have the answer right now, that does not mean the answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.
It does not matter how many humans wrote the Bible, when they wrote the Bible. Because the Bible is the Words of God inspired.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?
I believe you are wrong. Look at John 10 in more detail:

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

They are one in purpose. They cannot be one in being, because verse 29 says "my father is greater than all" as in 'my dad who is not me, is the best!'. Noone will pluck them out of Jesus' hand nor God's. They are one in purpose.

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

We can see here that the Jews misunderstood Jesus (as usual e.g. eating his flesh).

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—


John 17:20-22 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

So mankind is also one with God. We are not divine.

36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Then he says "why do you accuse me of blamsphemy? i never said i was god. i said i was God's son". And other people have been God's sons:

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).

Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
We must first know that John 1:1 is terribly translated and this universally recognised by biblical scholars:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word. He was in the beginning with the (ho theos) God."

This does not support the trinity.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him.
First of all many people have been called 'lord':


Prophet Abraham:

"Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Abraham) being old also?"

Genesis 18:12

Esau:

"And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:"

Genesis 32:4

Joseph:

"And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him."
Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

And look:

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Thomas has just seen a dead man 'come back to life', and is shocked. So like people these days say "oh my God!", those days they were different. Also notice the exclamation mark on the end? This means that he is shocked.

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
A book can explain this better:

With regard to John 9:38 "Lord. I believe, and he worshipped him." and Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him." Please note that the word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is (and I quote): "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation.

However, the above two verses of John and Matthew are not the only two verses of the Bible were such selective translation techniques are employed in order to impress upon the reader a chosen doctrine. For example, in the "Gospel of Matthew" the English "translation" records that Jesus was "worshipped" by Magi that came from the East (2:11); by a ruler (9:18) , by boat people (14:33), by a Canaanite woman (15:24), by the mother of the Zebedees (20:20); and by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:9) to name but a very few.

Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, the reader understands that Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), therefore, once again, we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."

How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Far from it! Let us ask the Bible to explain:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."

1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. Similarly,

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."

2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."

Genesis 50:18

"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"

2 Samuel 19:18

"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."

What the translators have done when translating these verse is that they have "technically" translated the word correctly, however, the true meaning of this word is now completely lost.

Finally, in order to seal the proof of this matter and to dispel any lingering doubt that may remain in the reader's mind, the reader is encouraged to obtain a copy of the "New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:

1. "bowed to the ground" (2:11);
2. "fell at his feet" (14:33);
3. "falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and
4. "fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.

Please also read the translation of these verses in "The Complete Bible, an American Translation" By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:

1. "they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11),
2. "fell down before him"(14:33),
3. "and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and
4. "bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.

Once again, we remember that such sublime manipulation of the translation in order to establish with the reader a chosen doctrine was exposed by God in the noble Qur'an. The Qur'an says:

"There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from God,' but it is not from God; and they speak a lie against God, and [well] they know it!"

The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78

Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death
"And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion."

Mark 2:1-12

As seen in chapter one, when Paul came with his new and innovative ideas on how to improve upon the message of Jesus (pbuh), he began by dropping specific commandments. This continued until he decided that his alleged "visions" were sufficient authority to completely discard all of the commandments which both prophet Moses as well as prophet Jesus (pbut) both observed very strictly throughout their lives. The fact that both of these prophets are well known to have spent their lives commanding their followers to uphold these laws and commandments is casually brushed aside by "St. Paul." His "visions," we are told, are higher in authority than the commands of Jesus (pbuh) during his lifetime.

Once Paul was finished nullifying the law of God through Moses and Jesus and simplifying the religion for them he began to get many converts. This is because his "Christianity" only required "faith" and no actual work (Romans 3:28). But faith without work was too flimsy a concept to build one's whole way of life around. Paul needed a stupendous and monumental event to have faith IN order for his claims to be accepted by anyone. Thus the original sin and the atonement were born.

Paul claimed that God Almighty had created mankind inherently sinful and as inheritors of "the sin of Adam." He claimed that this hereditary burden was so great that the creator of all of the heavens and earth, and yes, the creator of the concepts of sin and forgiveness themselves, could not forgive this sin. This, in Paul's estimation, was beyond God's capabilities. Paul preached that the only way the creator of the heavens and the earth and everything in-between could forgive this sin was to have his sinless "only begotten son" beaten, spat on, stripped, whipped, cut, humiliated, and finally killed in the most gruesome and drawn-out way known to man at the time; by hanging on the cross, and thus becoming a curse upon mankind.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree"

Galatians 3:13:

Only then would God be able to forgive this sin.

However, if we were to read the words of Jesus (pbuh) in Mark 2:9 we would find that Jesus (pbuh) informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.

However, we already know that God Almighty the "Father" of all believers

"And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"

Matthew 23:9

We further know that God Almighty is greater in power than all humans, inluding Jesus:

"..my Father is greater than I",

John 14:28

Finally, we know that Jesus (pbuh) gets his power from God:

"I can of mine own self do nothing...,"

John 5:30

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Acts 2:22

So it stands to reason that what is easy for Jesus (pbuh) is trivial and inconsequential for God Almighty Himself. Thus, if Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words "your sins are forgiven you," then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. Indeed, we can even read in the Bible:

"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."

Micah 7:18

"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."

Psalm 78:38-39

"I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."

Isaiah 43:25

Well, how then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? To get the answer let us read the Bible:

"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

Jeremiah 36:3

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

Isaiah 55:7

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah."

Psalm 32:5

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..."

Proverbs 16:6

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
Reply

Immunity
06-10-2006, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
I feel quite happy that there were messages about the four corners of the Earth, I feel this type of language was used in a descriptive way to put across some other message.
The Bible is supposedly the literal word of God. Are you trying to say that the Bible did not "mean" that the Earth had corners? I find it quite dubious that the Bible has the very same scientific flaws as some early Greek astrologers.

Originally Posted by Eric H
Maybe you have to look at the understanding of the people at the times the Bible was written. Just imagine a prophet holding up an orange and saying this is the shape of the Earth, and we are living near the equator and points to that part on the orange
The man says don’t be daft if we lived on a ball shaped object we would fall off.
The prophet then goes on to explain gravity to the man
Right says the man I should get the feeling of walking up and down at right angles to the Earth and there is some invisible force field holding me onto this orange shaped Earth, but the Earth is flat here.
The prophet then goes on to explain about the size of the Earth and that people in Australia are not standing upside down
Given the time period, dont you think its a bit odd that people would belive a man to be divine (son of God) rather than believe the earth was round? If its easy for a man to be considered to be the son of God, then obviously it would also be easy to convince that the earth is round.

Originally Posted by Eric H
The man would be justified in saying, if you cannot show me proof that the Earth is round, so then I will not believe anything else you say.
Yet they believe Mary gave birth as a Virgin, Jesus's miracles and his relation as the son of God, the miracles of Moses, Jacob, Adam, and so on. My point is that based on that reasoning, miracles in the Bible would be as questionanble as the shape of the Earth.

Originally Posted by Eric H
There are many place in the Bible were analogies are used, but analogies by their very description cannot be totally accurate, and often you can find several analogies for the same thing.

Jesus described heaven in many ways he used words like a sheep pen, wedding feast, vinyard, so that people would have some idea of the concept of heaven.
I never disagreed with that.

Peace.
Reply

Joe98
06-10-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
The Bible is supposedly the literal word of God.
Its is not.

Only Muslims claim it is.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-10-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Besides, it isnt the bible that saved me, or it wasnt reading it that convinced me that it was the truth, it was asking Jesus into my life as Lord and saviour that turned my mess of a life around in an instince, and that my friends, no1 can take away.
Glad that it's helped you in your life mate. :)

That's what relgion is about, how it helps us through the trials and tribulations of life. And that we all try to accept each other for what we believe.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-10-2006, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.
What does it mean that he ''died for our sins''?
Reply

submit
06-10-2006, 05:24 PM
The Christians think God turned into a human named Jesus and threw himself at the authority's hands and was crucified. Paul of Tarsus in the Bible claimed that Jesus died for our sins. Paul made something up about how Adam's sin of eating the apple lasted until 'god' "died" for us.
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duskiness
06-10-2006, 06:31 PM
You see Avar- all teological problems in christianity Submit solves in 3 senteces.
To sum up:
we believe in St. Paul who "mades up" some stories, and the graves sin one can commit is to eat an apple. ;)

I hope some wiser christian can answer Your question...because with this question i quite often have problems myself
n.
Reply

Immunity
06-10-2006, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Its is not.

Only Muslims claim it is.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Originally Posted by Source
Not only CAN we take the Bible literally, but we MUST take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us.
Thus, your assertion is wrong.
Reply

submit
06-10-2006, 09:16 PM
Please do not become enemies with me...God knows enough people from other religions hate me (for not being one of them).

"Not only CAN we take the Bible literally, but we MUST take the Bible literally." http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Therefore when Jesus said "our God is One" he must have been right.

Would you agree?
Reply

Immunity
06-10-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by submit
Therefore when Jesus said "our God is One" he must have been right.

Would you agree?
I do. The Bible is the literal word of God according to Christians.
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selma1
06-10-2006, 09:31 PM
Isa [jesus] was human HE IS NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED

http://serenityfountain.org/default.asp

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Could_not_Answer/15.htm
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4-Christ-Alone
06-10-2006, 10:44 PM
What does it mean that he ''died for our sins''?]
Well i can try and answer this the best i can, what ive been taught, is that God is a just God, and its in his nature to punish sin. Now man sinned, so we have a problem, but God thought, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he became flesh, he became one of us, so that God as a man, could take our punishment for us. Now if i am right muslims believe God doesn not need to sacrafice anything or any1 for the sins that we have alll comitted.

What we both believe in is God, we also agree there was a man Jesus, yous believe he was a prophet, we believe he was sent by God to take away the sins of the world. Like i said before, i dont believe this because it makes the most sense in my opinion, but i believe this because of experiences worshipping Jesus that are beond words to describe his presence, ive never felt so much thickness in the air of complete holyness and peace, Now if it wasnt for them experiences, i doubt i would be following him, but they have lef me with no doubts that he died for my sins.

Anyway i could go on all day

God bless
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Joe98
06-10-2006, 11:21 PM
I was brought up as a Christain.

We were told it is not the literal word of God. And reasons given for that.

And they make perfect sense.
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duskiness
06-11-2006, 04:53 AM
Let's put it this way: most christian, average (whatever this mean...) christian, traditional denominations don't claim that Bible is a literal word of God.
And yes - there are exeptions. Like always. You can finde them even in islam. ;)
n.
Reply

Umar001
06-11-2006, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
Let's put it this way: most christian, average (whatever this mean...) christian, traditional denominations don't claim that Bible is a literal word of God.
And yes - there are exeptions. Like always. You can finde them even in islam. ;)
n.
seriously speaking it would be nice for you to come to my college and preach to some Christians, so they dont go round saying 'The Word of G-d says this and that'

EDIT:
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Now if it wasnt for them experiences, i doubt i would be following him, but they have lef me with no doubts that he died for my sins.
So you kinda agree you only really worship Jesus and so on because of the feeling and beautiful experience you have had at the hands of askin Jesus to be ur saviour and praising him?

Peace be upon Jesus and his Mother and his followers.

Peace
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Well i can try and answer this the best i can, what ive been taught, is that God is a just God, and its in his nature to punish sin. Now man sinned, so we have a problem, but God thought, i dont want to punish them because they fall, so he became flesh, he became one of us, so that God as a man, could take our punishment for us. Now if i am right muslims believe God doesn not need to sacrafice anything or any1 for the sins that we have alll comitted.

What we both believe in is God, we also agree there was a man Jesus, yous believe he was a prophet, we believe he was sent by God to take away the sins of the world. Like i said before, i dont believe this because it makes the most sense in my opinion, but i believe this because of experiences worshipping Jesus that are beond words to describe his presence, ive never felt so much thickness in the air of complete holyness and peace, Now if it wasnt for them experiences, i doubt i would be following him, but they have lef me with no doubts that he died for my sins.

Anyway i could go on all day

God bless
That made sense.

I too, can't explain the feeling i get when i read from the Guru Granth Sahib (holy book) to praise God. it's a feeling which cannot be expressed by words.

I was just wondering if Jesus did die for our sins, then who will die for us again? because us humans are sinning even more than they did in the time of Jesus.

Just something we all need to ponder over. Personally i believe we will all suffer for our own actions.
Reply

Umar001
06-11-2006, 02:10 PM
Oh so Avar you have the really special type of feeling which cant be expressed by words aswell, when you read The Guru Granth Sahib?

Peace
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Oh so Avar you have the really special type of feeling which cant be expressed by words aswell, when you read The Guru Granth Sahib?

Peace
Indeed, it brings you closer to God as it contains praise of the Almighty. We stop short of calling it 'God' or worshipping it. :)

Do you not experience anything whilst reading the Koran?
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Umar001
06-11-2006, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Indeed, it brings you closer to God as it contains praise of the Almighty. We stop short of calling it 'God' or worshipping it. :)

Do you not experience anything whilst reading the Koran?
Well I dont know what your feeling, if i knew I could tell you if thats how I feel and if that is what I experience.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Well I dont know what your feeling, if i knew I could tell you if thats how I feel and if that is what I experience.
Ok, you describe what you feel (if anything) and i'll let you know if it's anything similar!
Reply

Umar001
06-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Ok well..

I can only really echo these statements:

"I too, can't explain the feeling i get.."
"t's a feeling which cannot be expressed by words."

The feeling I get from just reading the Qu'ran is undescribeable, I do not speak arabic but the Surahs that I have learned, I know the meaning of the words and because of my origins I can understand them easier than most.

The feelins I have when I read/recite varies depending what it is I am reciting, the underlyin feelings of completeness, satisfaction, sense of jus an overwehlmin joy are there, but feelings such as not sadness but knowledge of my wrongfullness against MYSELF also can be felt when I read particular parts, or jus excessive laughter, like i cant stop laughin not out of humour not like i've heard a joke or nothing lol but i dont know its there.

its very long and kinda complicated.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-11-2006, 03:03 PM
I was just wondering if Jesus did die for our sins, then who will die for us again? because us humans are sinning even more than they did in the time of Jesus.

Just something we all need to ponder over. Personally i believe we will all suffer for our own actions.
Jesus paid the price for every sin, meaning every sin tht any1 has ever done, and is ever going to do.

I believe if we accept jesus as our lord and saviour we escape that punishment because hes paid it already. I believe that God loved the world to much to punish so he made himself flesh to pay it for us. The bible teachs this.

For God so loved the word he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever recieved him should not persih, but hav ever lasting life. John 3:16

Also in john it says, the word is God, and God became flesh.

God bless
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Umar001
06-11-2006, 03:08 PM
The word is a G-d and the word became flesh.

Anyhow, I dont get it, Christians tell me that G-d is just but that dont seem to conform with the concept of Jesus dying.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Ok well..

I can only really echo these statements:

"I too, can't explain the feeling i get.."
"t's a feeling which cannot be expressed by words."

The feeling I get from just reading the Qu'ran is undescribeable, I do not speak arabic but the Surahs that I have learned, I know the meaning of the words and because of my origins I can understand them easier than most.

The feelins I have when I read/recite varies depending what it is I am reciting, the underlyin feelings of completeness, satisfaction, sense of jus an overwehlmin joy are there, but feelings such as not sadness but knowledge of my wrongfullness against MYSELF also can be felt when I read particular parts, or jus excessive laughter, like i cant stop laughin not out of humour not like i've heard a joke or nothing lol but i dont know its there.

its very long and kinda complicated.
The state i go through, i suppose could only be described as bliss.
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4-Christ-Alone
06-11-2006, 03:23 PM
Anyhow, I dont get it, Christians tell me that G-d is just but that dont seem to conform with the concept of Jesus dying.
He is a just God, he punishs sin which is just, but he is also an all loving God, so being a just and loving God, he had to punish, but loved us to much to punish us, so he became flesh to take our punishment, so who ever accepted him would not perish.

God bless
Reply

Umar001
06-11-2006, 03:31 PM
I think I will jus open a couple of threads when I get oragnised on the topics which would be nice to be discussed.

That way I can keep with the comments and not get lost and also dont go a stray.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by 4-Christ-Alone
Also in john it says, the word is God, and God became flesh.

God bless
Sikhs do believe the ''word is God and God is the word''

But not that God is flesh. God is AJOONI SABHANG ''Beyond Birth and Death,
The Enlightened One''
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Umar001
06-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Bliss could be one of the words to discribe it i guess.

By the way, 'The Enlightened One' was He enlightened by anyone?
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AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Bliss could be one of the words to discribe it i guess.

By the way, 'The Enlightened One' was He enlightened by anyone?
Who would Enlightened God. eh? None!
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duskiness
06-11-2006, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
So you kinda agree you only really worship Jesus and so on because of the feeling and beautiful experience you have had at the hands of askin Jesus to be ur saviour and praising him?
we usualy call this feeling: "faith" or "grace of faith" ;)
R. otto said that God is both fascinating and terrifying at the same time. When faith comes you feel you're nothing, less then dust, dirty and sinful. But you wouldn't like to avoid this feeling even if you could.
I guess this mean that - yes, because of "this beautiful expirience"

Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Peace be upon Jesus and his Mother and his followers.
...whether they believe He was a prophet or a God
Amen :)
Reply

NJUSA
06-11-2006, 05:27 PM
I'd like to register my objections to the premise of this thread.
The Bible is a book that Christians consider to be a sacred text. Sacred texts are notoriously nuanced, and not to be treated superficially. If you discuss the Bible, show respect for it as a text held sacred by our siblings in humanity.
Some of the same things that make the Bible hard to understand on a superficial level apply to the Qur'an, yet many Muslims take offense at people decrying the Qur'an's apparent lack of structure, plagiarization of other sacred texts, and verses advocating violence.
Instead of flinging accusations about "errors" in the Bible or any other sacred text, let's celebrate our differences, or similarities, and what makes God's creation beautifully diverse.
Reply

Ghazi
06-11-2006, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by NJUSA
I'd like to register my objections to the premise of this thread.
The Bible is a book that Christians consider to be a sacred text. Sacred texts are notoriously nuanced, and not to be treated superficially. If you discuss the Bible, show respect for it as a text held sacred by our siblings in humanity.
Some of the same things that make the Bible hard to understand on a superficial level apply to the Qur'an, yet many Muslims take offense at people decrying the Qur'an's apparent lack of structure, plagiarization of other sacred texts, and verses advocating violence.
Instead of flinging accusations about "errors" in the Bible or any other sacred text, let's celebrate our differences, or similarities, and what makes God's creation beautifully diverse.
:sl:

No offense sis, but I think this thread is valid, the christians here can refute as they wish.
Reply

Immunity
06-11-2006, 07:10 PM
The Bible says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines and was still not happy!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
The Bible says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines and was still not happy!
Who is...
Reply

Ghazi
06-11-2006, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
The Bible says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines and was still not happy!
:sl:

Really, You'd think that'd satisfy any man's sex drive.
Reply

Immunity
06-11-2006, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Who is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon

Peace.
Reply

Eric H
06-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Greetings and peace be with you NJUSA,

Originally Posted by NJUSA
I'd like to register my objections to the premise of this thread.
The Bible is a book that Christians consider to be a sacred text. Sacred texts are notoriously nuanced, and not to be treated superficially. If you discuss the Bible, show respect for it as a text held sacred by our siblings in humanity.
Some of the same things that make the Bible hard to understand on a superficial level apply to the Qur'an, yet many Muslims take offense at people decrying the Qur'an's apparent lack of structure, plagiarization of other sacred texts, and verses advocating violence.
Instead of flinging accusations about "errors" in the Bible or any other sacred text, let's celebrate our differences, or similarities, and what makes God's creation beautifully diverse.
What a wonderful approach to take when looking at other people's faith, we do need to to be more tolerant and understanding.

May Allah continue to Bless your efforts

Eric
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Immunity
06-11-2006, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
What a wonderful approach to take when looking at other people's faith, we do need to to be more tolerant and understanding.
Go explain that to your own people.
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duskiness
06-12-2006, 03:46 AM
<hug Njusa> thx for what You have said/written :)
n.
Reply

Quruxbadaan
06-13-2006, 02:50 AM
Asalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi


this is the funniest thread I have ever seen in my life!!

Allah The All mighty creator has challenges anyone of man and Jinn untill the day of judgment to comprise a book comparable to its caliber
Allah doenst need U islam Bashers U need Allah and weather u like it or not Islam is free of contradiction u can try to find "errors" all u want till ur face turns purple...Till the cows come home. But these contradictions are and forever will be a mere lack of understanding and knowledge of islam
weather or not the bible contradicts itself is not for me to say but for all u bible lecturers up in here i suggest u practice what u preach and try to read The holy Quran cover to cover with no preconcieved ideas...(which i doubt any of u will do but until then please stop copying and pasting from ignorant saps who had nothing better to do on a bright sunday afternoon than to trash talk the Glorious Quraan

That wwas a really good laugh

Maa salaama
Reply

snakelegs
06-13-2006, 04:24 AM
why would anybody waste their time searching for mistakes in someone else's holy book????
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Quruxbadaan
06-13-2006, 04:36 AM
Snake leggs

couldnt have said it better myself
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Quruxbadaan
06-13-2006, 04:37 AM
snake legs???
Okay than
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duskiness
06-13-2006, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
why would anybody waste their time searching for mistakes in someone else's holy book????
-You nknow Snakelegs... i'm asking myself the same question...
salaam :)
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Idris
06-14-2006, 11:53 PM
why would anybody waste their time searching for mistakes in someone else's holy book????

May to tell (proof) them that they are wrong and should stop because if they do not they will go to hell. That's a short anwers to a short question

If you want more of an anwer to why we are wasting our time then PM :)
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2006, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
May to tell (proof) them that they are wrong and should stop because if they do not they will go to hell. That's a short anwers to a short question

If you want more of an anwer to why we are wasting our time then PM :)
why is there any desire to prove that others are wrong? why not worry about ourselves and leave the others to god to judge and worry about?
i can't imagine going through other people's holy books to find errors...
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Idris
06-15-2006, 01:02 AM
This should anwer you bro.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-dialogue.html
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snakelegs
06-15-2006, 05:08 AM
yes, thanks.
i guess it is just a strange idea to me because i think trying to change some one else's religion is strange, tho i realise it you are obliged to do it.
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Umar001
06-15-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
why is there any desire to prove that others are wrong? why not worry about ourselves and leave the others to god to judge and worry about?
i can't imagine going through other people's holy books to find errors...

Hmm, jus for the purpose of trying to see both sides I will TRY lol to put something forward, now this has jus come to mind so if there are mistakes tell me:

For example,

Say you found out that your friend lived in a house, and the building company who built his house was known for making mistakes with the gas, and many people had died from living in houses made by them because of gas leaks, and you had this knowledge, I am hoping you would tell your friend, 'yo, whats the dillio :giggling: bro check your house I think you mighth ave a gas leak since I know others who have had them when their houses were made by this company' but your friend doesnt believe you so you go to your friend's house and say, 'let me look around to find the fault' and you go to the boiler and find the fault and show him, and then he believes you and leaves.


Now similarly, if you know that someone's religion has a fault in it, then wouldnt you tell him? Or would you jus let him be, which could mean he would die or find out himself.

If you would take the risk of him dying then I guess thats upto you.

But personally, I would tell him, and if he didnt believe him I would show him.

Peace
Reply

snakelegs
06-15-2006, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Hmm, jus for the purpose of trying to see both sides I will TRY lol to put something forward, now this has jus come to mind so if there are mistakes tell me:

For example,

Say you found out that your friend lived in a house, and the building company who built his house was known for making mistakes with the gas, and many people had died from living in houses made by them because of gas leaks, and you had this knowledge, I am hoping you would tell your friend, 'yo, whats the dillio :giggling: bro check your house I think you mighth ave a gas leak since I know others who have had them when their houses were made by this company' but your friend doesnt believe you so you go to your friend's house and say, 'let me look around to find the fault' and you go to the boiler and find the fault and show him, and then he believes you and leaves.


Now similarly, if you know that someone's religion has a fault in it, then wouldnt you tell him? Or would you jus let him be, which could mean he would die or find out himself.

If you would take the risk of him dying then I guess thats upto you.

But personally, I would tell him, and if he didnt believe him I would show him.

Peace
your analogy doesn't work because the gas leak is clearly observable and measurable. the afterlife is a belief.

how could i know that someone's religion has a fault in it, since it is a matter of faith? i don't have to agree with someone's beliefs, all i have to do is respect them.
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Umar001
06-15-2006, 08:11 PM
what im saying is:

In the similar sense that one has knowledge of a fault in the gas system, a muslim may feel he knows his friends religion has a fault.

So for example if the muslim says your religion has a fault in its scripture, but the person doesnt believe the muslim then the muslim can say look and shows him a contradiction thats all.

similar with a person having knowledge of a gas leak and showin his friend of the gas leak.

"your analogy doesn't work because the gas leak is clearly observable and measurable. the afterlife is a belief."

I dont know where I was comparing anything to the afterlife, the gas leak which is observable, is 'the fault' which in religion would be the contradiction, which is observable.

"how could i know that someone's religion has a fault in it, since it is a matter of faith? i don't have to agree with someone's beliefs, all i have to do is respect them."

Ok, if someone says that something is written by someone who is perfect, then you wouldnt expect mistakes in it. If you find one then you know it has a fault right?

(and I know most christians here dont think the bible is G-ds word)

Noone said you have to agree, and yes respect the belief, but respecting isnt just accepting, you should speak and act in a respectable manner but still be truthful. If you find what you believe to be a fault in someones belief system then it would be the noble thing to do for you to approach them and ask about it, so together you can both find truth.
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selma1
06-15-2006, 08:24 PM
FROM the article The TORAH and the BIBLES of TODAY

http://serenityfountain.org/islam.asp

Let us listen to educated Christian men of science and see what their opinions are on the matter of whether today's Bibles are Allah's word or not.

On the 17 th page of his book Is the Bible Allah's Word? Dr. Graham Scroggie, who is from the "Moody Bible Institutions," says: "Yes, the Holy Bible is the work of human beings. Some people oppose this fact with reasons I cannot understand. The Bible is a work which was prepared in the minds of men, written down in their language, with their own hands and completely possessed of the human character."


Although he is a Christian, Kenneth Crag, a man of religion, says: "The New Testament, which is part of the Holy Bible, is not the word of Allah. In it, there are tales told by mankind and the testimony of people who saw how something had happened. Those words, which originated only from the minds of human beings, have been presented to people as if they were the words of Allahu ta'ala."


Theologist Prof. Geyser says: "The Holy Bible is not the word of Allahu ta'ala. But, in spite of this, it is a holy book."


There had been popes in history who did not believe in the doctrine of the "Trinity" which is the unity of three: "Allah, the Son, the Holy Ghost." One of these popes, Honorius, was officially cursed forty-eight years after his death by the Synod which was held in Istanbul in 680 A.D.


The Bible, written by Barnabas who was one of the apostles of Isa ('alaihi 's-salam) and who traveled together with Paul to spread Christianity, suddenly disappeared and, hence, the proof that "A Prophet will come after me; his name will be Muhammad (sall-Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and he will teach you many things" which was said by Hadrat Jesus, has been hidden by the extreme elements of the Christian Church.
this passage is going on...
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Umar001
06-15-2006, 08:31 PM
Yep I think most christians on here agree with those statements, right upto jus before the mention of Gospel of Barnabas lol.
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snakelegs
06-15-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
what im saying is:

In the similar sense that one has knowledge of a fault in the gas system, a muslim may feel he knows his friends religion has a fault.

So for example if the muslim says your religion has a fault in its scripture, but the person doesnt believe the muslim then the muslim can say look and shows him a contradiction thats all.

similar with a person having knowledge of a gas leak and showin his friend of the gas leak.

"your analogy doesn't work because the gas leak is clearly observable and measurable. the afterlife is a belief."

I dont know where I was comparing anything to the afterlife, the gas leak which is observable, is 'the fault' which in religion would be the contradiction, which is observable.

because you had said "If you would take the risk of him dying then I guess thats upto you."

"how could i know that someone's religion has a fault in it, since it is a matter of faith? i don't have to agree with someone's beliefs, all i have to do is respect them."

Ok, if someone says that something is written by someone who is perfect, then you wouldnt expect mistakes in it. If you find one then you know it has a fault right?

how would i know it has a fault? to people who follow a religion, that is their truth and i see nothing wrong with that.

(and I know most christians here dont think the bible is G-ds word)

Noone said you have to agree, and yes respect the belief, but respecting isnt just accepting, you should speak and act in a respectable manner but still be truthful. If you find what you believe to be a fault in someones belief system then it would be the noble thing to do for you to approach them and ask about it, so together you can both find truth.

i understand what you're saying, and that this is the muslim (christian, too i think) position.
i have to admit that i have a problem with proselytizing religions (here it's always christians).
in any case, i am glad that i don't have to read other people's holy books to search for mistakes!
thanks for your explanations.
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Eric H
06-16-2006, 06:20 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Idris;

May to tell (proof) them that they are wrong and should stop because if they do not they will go to hell. That's a short anwers to a short question
There is no proof for any of us, we do not even have proof for the existance of God, we can only believe and have faith, you only have to read through the atheism thread to see this.

In both Islam and Christianity it says God chooses whom he wills, yet he seems to choose us in many diverse ways.

In the spirit of seking a greater interfaith friendship

Eric
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Umar001
06-16-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i understand what you're saying, and that this is the muslim (christian, too i think) position.
i have to admit that i have a problem with proselytizing religions (here it's always christians).
in any case, i am glad that i don't have to read other people's holy books to search for mistakes!
thanks for your explanations.
Im glad you kinda understood me, lol i was begging to think I was jus confusing everyone.

I dont get the proselytizing thing, I dont have a clue on that word.

I dont think many people jus go reading other peoples books to find mistakes, they jus hear lectures or something.
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snakelegs
06-17-2006, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Im glad you kinda understood me, lol i was begging to think I was jus confusing everyone.

I dont get the proselytizing thing, I dont have a clue on that word.

I dont think many people jus go reading other peoples books to find mistakes, they jus hear lectures or something.
proselytizing religions are those (i think it's only muslims and christians) who believe that they must convert others to their religion. in other words, they believe they have the Truth and they think they have to change others.
i have a problem with that because i have no desire to change them, why should they seek to change me? to me, it is disrespectful and arrogant to tell someone their religion is Wrong.
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Umar001
06-17-2006, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
proselytizing religions are those (i think it's only muslims and christians) who believe that they must convert others to their religion. in other words, they believe they have the Truth and they think they have to change others.
i have a problem with that because i have no desire to change them, why should they seek to change me? to me, it is disrespectful and arrogant to tell someone their religion is Wrong.
Thank you for your patience in explaining it to me, and I would jus like to put a couple of points forward, so you can maybe clear your view for me.

With regards to changing people, well I dont think religion teaches that men must change other men but rather just to convey the message, from what I have seen this is represented in the Quran, and in the Holy Bible.

So maybe the poeple are just trying to hard, but in their defence, if they really believed in something to be true then dont you see they would be trying to change you, most likely I hope, out of affection?

If I had a christian friend who didnt try explain his religion to me I would feel abit down, in the sense that, I'd think 'This Christian is a Christian for a reason, he belives it to be true, yet he doesnt try and share that with me, he is witholding somethin he holds dear and he believes will lead to eternal life' see I'd feel as if the person didnt care about me in that sense.

But of course excessive constant harrasment is not nice either.


With regards to saying someone's religion is wrong, well from my view point isnt that also jus said indirectly anyway, when someone says 'im a Christian' or 'im a Muslim' are they not in fact showing that they dont believe Islam or Christianity to be true, else they would have been that.

I hope I have made sense.

Peace be with ya
Reply

snakelegs
06-19-2006, 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Thank you for your patience in explaining it to me, and I would jus like to put a couple of points forward, so you can maybe clear your view for me.

With regards to changing people, well I dont think religion teaches that men must change other men but rather just to convey the message, from what I have seen this is represented in the Quran, and in the Holy Bible.

So maybe the poeple are just trying to hard, but in their defence, if they really believed in something to be true then dont you see they would be trying to change you, most likely I hope, out of affection?

If I had a christian friend who didnt try explain his religion to me I would feel abit down, in the sense that, I'd think 'This Christian is a Christian for a reason, he belives it to be true, yet he doesnt try and share that with me, he is witholding somethin he holds dear and he believes will lead to eternal life' see I'd feel as if the person didnt care about me in that sense.

But of course excessive constant harrasment is not nice either.


With regards to saying someone's religion is wrong, well from my view point isnt that also jus said indirectly anyway, when someone says 'im a Christian' or 'im a Muslim' are they not in fact showing that they dont believe Islam or Christianity to be true, else they would have been that.

I hope I have made sense.

Peace be with ya
to me it is like the aesop fable "the blind man and the elephant." in case you're not familiar with it:
"A community of blind men once heard that an extraordinary beast called an elephant had been brought into the country. Since they did not know what it looked like and had never heard its name, they resolved to obtain a picture, and the knowledge they desired, by feeling the beast - the only possibility that was open to them! They went in search of the elephant, and when they had found it, they felt its body. One touched its leg, the other a tusk, the third an ear, and in the belief that they now knew the elephant, they returned home. But when they were questioned by the other blind men, their answers differed. The one who had felt the leg maintained that the elephant was nothing other than a pillar, extremely rough to the touch, and yet strangely soft. The one who had caught hold of the tusk denied this and described the elephant as, hard and smooth, with nothing soft or rough about it, more over the beast was by no means as stout as a pillar, but rather had the shape of a post ['amud]. The third, who had held the ear in his hands, spoke: "By my faith, it is both soft and rough." Thus he agreed with one of the others, but went on to say: Nevertheless, it is neither like a post nor a pillar, but like a broad, thick piece of leather." Each was right in a certain sense, since each of them communicated that part of the elephant he had comprehended, but none was able describe the elephant as it really was; for all three of them were unable to comprehend the entire form of the elephant."

in my view, for the muslim, islam is The Truth, for a hindu, hinduism is The Truth (well, not in the same way as in islam or christianity!), to the christian, christianity is The Truth, etc. none of them are wrong.
to try to convert someone shows that you think they are wrong and need correcting. to me this is arrogant and disrespectful. this is why i have a problem with the 2 proselytizing religions.
but i understand what you're saying, from your standpoint.
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