PDA

View Full Version : Is Jesus God?



afriend
06-08-2006, 08:49 PM
:sl:

I was just thinking, if Isa(Jesus) (AS) was a god, then who did he pray to?

and why did he eat, or sleep? Isn't it that Allah doesn't need these things?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Trumble
06-08-2006, 09:12 PM
In Christian belief Jesus was/is not "a god", but an aspect of THE God. He was an incarnation of God in human form, and in that context your questions simply make no sense.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 09:15 PM
I've read the Bible but i'm not sure i've come across any verse where it states Jesus claimed to be God, isn't that what the christians decided upon?
Reply

afriend
06-08-2006, 09:17 PM
oh yeah?

It says in the bible that that God himself descended from the heavens to take the punnishment for the 'ultimate' sin.

So IF it was Christ who was crucified, then it must be god, as he came down to take the punnishment upon himself...
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Umar001
06-08-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In Christian belief Jesus was/is not "a god", but an aspect of THE God. He was an incarnation of God in human form, and in that context your questions simply make no sense.

Was he an aspect or was he G-d? If he was G-d in human form he wouldnt need to pray.

Originally Posted by Iqram
It says in the bible that that God himself descended from the heavens to take the punnishment for the 'ultimate' sin.
Jus wondering if you could post references to that please.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
06-08-2006, 09:46 PM
if jesus (as) was god then why did he pray & ask for help from another god??:D
Reply

afriend
06-08-2006, 09:51 PM
Jus wondering if you could post references to that please.
Ok, but soon, not this instant.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Was he an aspect or was he G-d? If he was G-d in human form he wouldnt need to pray.

Jus wondering if you could post references to that please.
I did request that.

I wonder if one of our Christian brother/sister could participate, i'm here to learn and not crticise. :)
Reply

yasin
06-08-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I've read the Bible but i'm not sure i've come across any verse where it states Jesus claimed to be God, isn't that what the christians decided upon?

correct!
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Ok, but soon, not this instant.
ok akhi



Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I did request that.

I wonder if one of our Christian brother/sister could participate, i'm here to learn and not crticise.
What reference would you like? jus for the record I dont think I have said anything requiring evidence at the moment lol
Reply

Joe98
06-08-2006, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Crescent
If Jesus was god, then does that mean he prayed to himself?

I love Bill Gates and his "copy" and "paste" feature. I will use it now:


This is a reference to the Holy Trinity:

God the Father,
God the son and
God the holy Spirit

Jesus prayed to his facther, God the Father

One God - three in one.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
ok akhi





What reference would you like? jus for the record I dont think I have said anything requiring evidence at the moment lol
The verse where it states Jesus is God!
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 10:38 PM
Oh for crying out loud! I thought someone was going to offer "proof" again. There is no 'proof' that Jesus was not God.
Just as there is no 'proof' that he was.
Just as there is no proof that Muhammad is a prophet. And none that he is not.
Just as no proof that the Hindu faith is correct. And none that it is not.

There is no proof that God exists.

There is no proof that he does not.

It is all faith and opinion. That is all that there really is.

What is concrete proof to a muslim, is illogical and makes no sense to a devout christian or buddist.

And concrete proof to a christian, is illogical to a muslim or hindu, etc.

And proof from any faith is fairytale storyland superstitious folklore to an athiest.

You can offer "proof" until you are blue in the face, but it is not proof, it is your faith that makes you view it as proof.

But I think that is what God wants, "have faith".

Why is everyone so concerned with proving the other religion wrong? I think it is because many are unsure of their own faith, and if they can just prove the other guy wrong, then they will reassure themself that they are on the right path.
Try working on your own faith before concerning yourselves with other people.
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 10:39 PM
AsalamuAlaykum,

wow only one Christian replied...c'mon where are the Christian brothers at?

I wana hear some viewpoints...

Bro Joe98 you think God is Jesus (pbuh)'s father...Hmm...so who the heck is Joseph (pbuh)? Just concerned don't take offence, please!

Waiting for more replies inshaAllah this sounds interesting,

Nice post bro Iqram,

Anyways WalaykumSalaam :)
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I love Bill Gates and his "copy" and "paste" feature. I will use it now:


This is a reference to the Holy Trinity:

God the Father,
God the son and
God the holy Spirit

Jesus prayed to his facther, God the Father

One God - three in one.

is that meanto answer something?
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 10:41 PM
He's trying to implie that Jesus is not God...and that Christians don't believe that statement that bro made ...methinks!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I love Bill Gates and his "copy" and "paste" feature. I will use it now:


This is a reference to the Holy Trinity:

God the Father,
God the son and
God the holy Spirit

Jesus prayed to his facther, God the Father

One God - three in one.
But that would mean he was praying to himself, yes if he's God then he's praying to himself. Or if he's praying to the Father, then that would signify that there was more than one God! Jeez this is confusing!:hmm:
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Christianity is a monotheistic religion! Hence there is only one God :) same with Islam and etc
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 10:47 PM
LOL sis tasmiyah, i think u have mis understood him
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 10:49 PM
I should have stressed one point.
Originally Posted by Panatella
Oh for crying out loud! I thought someone was going to offer "proof" again. There is no 'proof' that Jesus was not God.
Just as there is no 'proof' that he was.
Just as there is no proof that Muhammad is a prophet. And none that he is not.
Just as no proof that the Hindu faith is correct. And none that it is not.

There is no proof that God exists.

There is no proof that he does not.

It is all faith and opinion. That is all that there really is.

What is concrete proof to a muslim, is illogical and makes no sense to a devout christian or buddist.

And concrete proof to a christian, is illogical to a muslim or hindu, etc.

And proof from any faith is fairytale storyland superstitious folklore to an athiest.

You can offer "proof" until you are blue in the face, but it is not proof, it is your faith that makes you view it as proof.

But I think that is what God wants, "have faith".

Why is everyone so concerned with proving the other religion wrong? I think it is because many are unsure of their own faith, and if they can just prove the other guy wrong, then they will reassure themself that they are on the right path.
Try working on your own faith before concerning yourselves with other people.
I have made bold the point that should have been stressed.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
Christianity is a monotheistic religion! Hence there is only one God :) same with Islam and etc

Erm, i'm aware of that thanks!
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 10:52 PM
I bet you wasn't :p Easa definately didn't know had to check it up on yahoo
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Panatella
I should have stressed one point.

I have made bold the point that should have been stressed.
LOL - I just wanted to learn a little about it. Perhaps you could post a link on here of a similar site like this, about Christianity? :)
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 10:57 PM
Panatella....whats wrong with this dscussion...sowi dint read all your post got sleepy half way through...not cause tis boring but am tired
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Panatella
I should have stressed one point.

I have made bold the point that should have been stressed.

Hmmmm, I think callin others to ones faith is what christianity and islam teaches, so u see when people are here posting stuff, maybe they are taking ur advice "Try working on your own faith before concerning yourselves with other people."

I wonder!

and:

Originally Posted by Tami..ta..something..lol..
I bet you wasn't :p Easa definately didn't know had to check it up on yahoo
Yea sure, and I was a christian who didnt know it was monotheistic?
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
LOL - I just wanted to learn a little about it. Perhaps you could post a link on here of a similar site like this, about Christianity? :)
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
Panatella....whats wrong with this dscussion...sowi dint read all your post got sleepy half way through...not cause tis boring but am tired


Nothing wrong with the discussion. Providing it is a discussion with the intent of learning and providing information.
Too often though, people obsess about proving the other religion wrong. For what reason? And it can't be done anyway, there is no proof when it comes to religion, only faith.
Reply

Pk_#2
06-08-2006, 11:02 PM
I know i know just read the 'x-Christian' beside your name...now i feel dumb...

Wheres Panatella gone i want replies?

Peace :)
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
I know i know just read the 'x-Christian' beside your name...now i feel dumb...

Wheres Panatella gone i want replies?

Peace :)

I hope u do!

feel dumb that is.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-08-2006, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Panatella
Nothing wrong with the discussion. Providing it is a discussion with the intent of learning and providing information.
Too often though, people obsess about proving the other religion wrong. For what reason? And it can't be done anyway, there is no proof when it comes to religion, only faith.
True, enough have questioned Sikhism on here.

Like i say, if you put up a link or mail it to me if necessary, so i can get a bit more insight into Christianity. Rather than just hounding you, i'd get it from a variety of Christians. :)
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
Don't be silly bruv !!:mmokay:
Every proof that anyone offers is 'only' faith. I have faith, but I know it can't be proved.
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
True, enough have questioned Sikhism on here.

Like i say, if you put up a link or mail it to me if necessary, so i can get a bit more insight into Christianity. Rather than just hounding you, i'd get it from a variety of Christians. :)
LOL! I am no authority on any faith or religion! I am the wrong guy to ask for info. I have my beliefs, but my knowledge is regrettably weak.
I do possess a certain amount of universal 'common sense' passed on to me from elders in various faiths, and some respectable athiests as well. The common sense stuff applies to all beliefs.
Differences in religion and sects are mere details.
Reply

Umar001
06-08-2006, 11:15 PM
If faith cant be proved then theres not much point in judgement.

Imagine that, being questioned 'Why didnt you believe in what I sent'

You sent no proof G-d i couldnt distinguish truth from false hood.

Lol @ tam ta thing, u cant tell the time?
Reply

Joe98
06-08-2006, 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
Bro Joe98 you think God is Jesus (pbuh)'s father...Hmm...so who the heck is Joseph?

I am named after Joseph:)

In the Christain belief, Jesus's father was Allah and Jesus's mother was Mary.

Joseph was Jesus's step father.
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
If faith cant be proved then theres not much point in judgement.

Imagine that, being questioned 'Why didnt you believe in what I sent'
That is what faith is for. God wants us to 'believe', without proof.


Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
If faith cant be proved then theres not much point in judgement.
Faith cannot be proved. God cannot be proved. Afterlife cannot be proved.
Do I believe in God? Yes.
Can I prove he exists? No.
Do I still believe? Yes.

If you are sure you can prove it, then visit one of the threads about this topic and see if you can offer anything not already there. If you can, post it. I assure you though, you will only offer what all the rest have, faith. A vague fact requiring a leap of faith to connect the dots.
Reply

Panatella
06-08-2006, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
sO mArY slEpT WiV gOD? :X
I am sure that is not what is meant. God can just speak it, and then it is. Like creation of the earth. God just speaks, and it 'is'. God speaks, and Mary is pregnant, still a virgin.
Reply

akr4m
06-09-2006, 01:37 AM
In the name of God Most Gracious Most Merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


:sl:

Greetings panatella, just wanted to comment on your earlier post.

Panatella
Oh for crying out loud! I thought someone was going to offer "proof" again. There is no 'proof' that Jesus was not God.
You see we cannot go back in time and ask Jesus Christ himself whether he claimed divinity or not (that would be the mother of all proves), but what we can do is examine the scriptures that talk about this issue – i.e. the Bible and the Quran. These are the two main sources which talk about the divinity of Christ. Now whether you read the Bible or the Quran it comes to the same conclusion. You will understand that it is only logical to believe Jesus cannot = God.

I have already posted this in another thread to answer a similar question – so might as well use it again to prove Jesus is < God

I will go through the concept of Jesus does NOT = God, and inshallah (God willing) try to go through it step by step.
First let’s look at a chapter from the Quran - Sura Iklas Chapter 112.

Say; He is God one and only
God eternal, absolute
He begetteth not nor is he begotten
And there is no one like him


First step - God is one!

Iklas 112:1
“Say; he is God one and only..”


Mark 12:29
And Jesus said to him; the first of all the commandments is; Hear O Israel your Lord OUR GOD is ONE God.


I point out two things from this passage 1st - God is ONE, and 2nd - Jesus says “your lord OUR God…” implying that even Jesus is under God Almighty’s divine authority.

Iklas 112:2
“God eternal absolute..”


Deuteronomy 33.27
The eternal God is thy refuge"
(Psalm 90.2).
"From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God"


- God = eternal
Christians believe Christ DIED for the sins of mankind, hence
- Christ = Not eternal
- Christ Does Not = God


Iklas 112:3-4
“He begetteth not nor is he begotten
And there is no one like him”


From these verses its clear God has neither father nor son. And there is no one like him…not Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Abraham, Noah…..no one…(may peace and blessing be upon them all)

Now let’s see how the bible is consistent with the verse in the Quran:

1) Mark 10:18
“Why call me good answered Jesus, no one is good but GOD ALONE.”

Here we see Jesus (pbuh) himself stating clearly that he doesn’t even consider him self as being good, but God alone.
To analyse:
Jesus = not good
God = good.
Jesus does NOT = God


2) John 14:28
Jesus says
“…..My father is greater then I”


This shows
God > Jesus.


Just like 2 > 1 and they are two different numbers likewise God > Jesus they are two DIFFERENT entity.
It is not logical to have the same entity greater then it self, e.g. 1 > 1 not true, or x > x this cannot be.

Jesus does NOT = God,
Rather GOD is > Jesus?


3) John 5:30
Jesus says
“I cannot of my own self do nothing, as I hear, I judge, and my judgement is just, because I seek not of my own will but the will of my Father, who has sent me”


Here we read Jesus cannot do anything by himself, without God’s will. And we know that God doesn’t require any help.

Jesus does NOT = God

4) James 1:13
“let no man say, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God CANNOT BE TEMPTED BY EVIL, nor tempeth he any man”


We read from this passage, that God cannot be tempted by evil, but we also know from the bible that Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days.

Luke 4:1-2
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.


To make it simple
Jesus = can be tempted
God = cannot be tempted.


Jesus does NOT = God

5) Mark 13:31-32
“of that day and that hour no one knows, no, not even the angels in the heavens, nor the son, but the Father”


We understand from this passage that when they asked Jesus about the final hour (judgement day), he didn’t know, and replied - not even the angels know. Only the Almighty ALLAH (GOD) knows the final hour. To simplify:

Jesus = doesn’t know the last hour,
God = has knowledge of that hour.
Jesus does NOT = God



6) "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147.5).;

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15.18).

"All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4.13).

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" (Romans 11.33).


From these passages we know that God has infinite wisdom, but what about Jesus (pbuh)

: “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.”
(Mark 11:12-13).


From this passage we understand that Jesus went to find out if there where any fruits. The question is - why is he finding out, surely if God has infinite wisdom he should already have known whether the tree had any fruit and whether it was the season for figs.

Once again we conclude from these passages,
Jesus = doesn’t have infinite knowledge
God = has infinite knowledge
Jesus does NOT = God


And there are plenty more, that favour Jesus does NOT = God, rather Jesus is < God

Therefore even the passages from the bible is consistent with the verse of the Quran

Iklas 112:4
“And there is no one like ALLAH”

Not even one of the mightiest messengers - Jesus (pbuh).

So yes there is a perfectly good proof that Jesus doesn’t = God – but many Christians do not want to believe. I am saying many not all because some have come to the conclusion Jesus did not claim divinity.


Just as there is no 'proof' that he was.
That is correct

Just as there is no proof that Muhammad is a prophet.

Quran states Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger
If Quran is from God
Then Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet

To conclude if the Quran is the word of God – then this proves Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet.

So first believe that God exists
2nd Read the Quran

And then you will know Muhammed (pbuh) is a prophet.


And none that he is not.
Correct

Just as no proof that the Hindu faith is correct.
Correct

And none that it is not.
Incorrect - because the Hindu scripture contains many contradictory statements – hence cannot be from God.

There is no proof that God exists.

There is no proof that he does not.

It is all faith and opinion. That is all that there really is.
There are signs of God’s existence (i.e. his creation), but to an atheist these signs are explainable and to a believer these signs point to God – this is when faith comes into it – if God had made everything black and white including his existence then what would be the point of faith.


You can offer "proof" until you are blue in the face, but it is not proof, it is your faith that makes you view it as proof
.

It could be that the receiving person may be ignorant.
But I think that is what God wants, "have faith".
Exactly

:w: :)
Reply

nimrod
06-09-2006, 02:04 AM
John 20:24-30 (New International Version)

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 20:24-30 (King James Version)

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:


Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Joe98
06-09-2006, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
2) John 14:28
Jesus says
“…..My father is greater then I”


This shows
God > Jesus.

It also shows that Jesus believed that God was his father


As does the next passage:


Originally Posted by akr4m

5) Mark 13:31-32
“of that day and that hour no one knows, no, not even the angels in the heavens, nor the son, but the Father”


In the following passage, what do you think is meant by the Spirit? Hint: Father, Son and Holy Spirit


Originally Posted by akr4m
Luke 4:1-2
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

The above passages also shows that inspite of being tempted, he refused the temptation.
Reply

Woodrow
06-09-2006, 02:34 AM
An error that people make is the attempt to try to prove something is not. No person in history has ever been able to do that. Logicaly it seems simple, but in reality there will always be a counter claim. So attempting to prove something is not, is a astaement with infinite rebuttals all of which must be addressed and resolved to prove the negative.

A better statement would be: I have not seen any proof that I'sa is God. Then address the perceived proofs and state why you do not believe the specific ones singulary.

Begin with what you believe is a statement that a person offered as proof that Jesus is God. Myself I have never seen any such statement.Quite often I have seen people say they believe I'sa is God, but I have never seen anyone offer a valid proof that he is. What I have always seen is the person is only stating there concept or the concepts they have heard. I have yet to see any person offer a bonafide proof.
Reply

nimrod
06-09-2006, 02:43 AM
Woodrow, I don't mean to get "off-topic" but I have been wanting to ask you a question.

Are you a "Lonesome Dove" fan?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Panatella
06-09-2006, 06:24 AM
Hi akr4m and nimrod. You both offer very good arguements and evidence to support your respective sides of the debate, but again, none is proof.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God does not exist. I am saying it cannot be proved. I believe God intended it that way. He wanted us to have faith.
To say "the Bible says this" or "the Quran says that" is well and good, and offers convincing evidence, but not proof.
Offer your 'proof' to an athiest and he/she will roll thier eyes. Why? Because the Quran and the Bible are just books to an athiest. You cannot prove that either comes from God.

I know, someone will follow me with a post that gives me carpal tunnel syndrome in my mouse finger from scrolling the full length of it, offering "proof" that either the Bible or the Quran is indeed the word of God. I say don't waste your time. I have read and heard it all before. You cannot post anything I have not already read in the abundant threads on this forum.
And someone will try to "prove" to me that God exists. Well again, don't bother. As they say, "you're preachin' to the choir". I already believe in God. The only one that can "prove" God exists, is God. No man alive today can give proof. You must simply believe.

Originally Posted by akr4m
[B]Quran states Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger
If Quran is from God
Then Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet

To conclude if the Quran is the word of God – then this proves Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet.

So first believe that God exists
2nd Read the Quran

And then you will know Muhammed (pbuh) is a prophet.
I have put in bold the key to what I am saying. There are two inportant problems with this kind of 'proof'. As you have said, you must first believe in God. This requires faith, there is no proof. Next, "IF" the Quran is the word of God. "IF". You can provide me with (don't bother) really convincing evidence, but not proof. Therefore, no proof that Muhammed was a prophet. No proof that Jesus is God. No proof that God exists. We are back at faith.

Originally Posted by akr4m
There are signs of God’s existence (i.e. his creation), but to an atheist these signs are explainable and to a believer these signs point to God – this is when faith comes into it – if God had made everything black and white including his existence then what would be the point of faith.
My point exactly. You agree then that you need faith to view this evidence as proof. Looking at the evidence objectively, imagine if you had no faith for a moment, you can see why they would not see this as proof. Can you not? Of course the point is also, there is no proof that God does not exist.

Originally Posted by akr4m
It could be that the receiving person may be ignorant.
Of course, they use this same statement to explain why you believe what you believe. You can't prove them wrong. But they also can't prove you wrong.

This thread is about proof that Jesus is not God. Impossible to prove. Impossible to disprove. Forget it people, you are wasting your time. Concentrate on faith.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-09-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by tasmiyah_B
sO mArY slEpT WiV gOD? :X
Have you not heard of the 'Immaculate Conception' ?

Please refrain from writing like a child please :)
Reply

Umar001
06-09-2006, 11:33 AM
So the concept is:

G-d exist, does he want us to follow him? I will assume he does.

Yet he gives the truth seekers no whatsoever help so thatthey can worship him, no proof therefore if they end up worshipin somethin else they cannot be held responsible?

Do you believe in Judgement and heave an hell?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-09-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
So the concept is:

G-d exist, does he want us to follow him? I will assume he does.

Yet he gives the truth seekers no whatsoever help so thatthey can worship him, no proof therefore if they end up worshipin somethin else they cannot be held responsible?
This is my view.

We've been sent Guru Nanak who teaches us to worship God, and no other. We have the word of God with us and that to me proves of his existence.

I do not doubt for a second he does not exist. This whole universe is his creation and if i have doubt's all i have to do is gaze up at the sky and i see the clouds moving, this reminds me that God is true!

What more proof do you seach for?
Reply

Umar001
06-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
This is my view.

We've been sent Guru Nanak who teaches us to worship God, and no other. We have the word of God with us and that to me proves of his existence.

I do not doubt for a second he does not exist. This whole universe is his creation and if i have doubt's all i have to do is gaze up at the sky and i see the clouds moving, this reminds me that God is true!

What more proof do you seach for?
I was merely asking if what i had stated was the concept shared by pantella and if it was how could it work?
Reply

vpb
06-09-2006, 01:11 PM
the biggest proof for the question "is there God?", is the statement itself "there is no God".

there is an example from one of the greatest islamic scholars Ebu Hanife when he was 9 years old he was a very smart, he had the capacity of a scholar, and one day he met his teacher and his teacher told him that he has seen a dreams with a very tall tree, and a small branch of a tree, and at the bottom of the tree some snakes and the branch felt and killed the snakes. And the teacher then told him that he has to go to a meeting with some people that were gonna ask him some questions about the religion (hard questions). Then something happened (i can't remember exactly) and he could not go , so his student (Ebu Hanife) asked him if he could go since the teacher could not, so the teacher said yes, and then Ebu Hanife said "you know about that dream that you saw, you were the tall tree, i was the branch that felt and killed the snakes". So he went there, and he told them that the teacher couldn't come but they could ask him , so they decided to ask him (since he was very young) just 3 questions.
1. How can we say that there is God when we can't see him?
2.How can you burn Jinns on hell when they are themselves made of smokeless fire?
3.How can God decides for things to happen?

so Ebu Hanife went outside and took a brick (at that time bricks were made of mud) and came back inside and hit very hard in the head the guy that asked the question, so his head started bleeding, and Ebu Hanife asked him "does it hurt??" , he replied "sure it does", then EH asked again "does it really hurt??", he replied "yes yes, it does, very much", then EH said "give me your hurt so I can put it on scale and see it how much it weights" , "as for the first question, do I have to believe if it did hurt you or not cause I cant see it, it's just what you are telling me", "for the 2nd question, man is made from mud, and look what I did to you with a brick made of mud, and as for the 3rd question, if Allah swt would not want me to hit you , we wouldn't let me :)". And he left .

the words I was citing in the dialogue are not exactly as I wrote, but I tried to tell the story as best as I could.

and 2 questions for atheists
"what do you think we are living for?" and if we were created not by God, but from something that happened on universe, or whatever atheists believe we were created from, then who created the universe?
Reply

Pk_#2
06-09-2006, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Please refrain from writing like a child please :)
Jezz am still a child...wah ya xpect bro...


And


vpb:
the biggest proof for the question "is there God?", is the statement itself "there is no God".


You lost me on the first line bro :?
Reply

akr4m
06-10-2006, 12:43 AM
In the name of God most gracious Most merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


:sl:

JOE98

It also shows that Jesus believed that God was his father


As does the next passage:
This still doesn’t mean Jesus = Father, this only proves Father is > Jesus
I am sure you are not implying the word father literally are you?

In the following passage, what do you think is meant by the Spirit? Hint: Father, Son and Holy Spirit
And? Are you implying the trinity? Well even though it is a long shot, since the word trinity wasn’t even mentioned in the entire bible, let me ask you a question, tell me how is the trinity consistent with the atonement

Trinity requires like you said – all three Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. If one doesn’t exist then it is incomplete
Then how do you explain the atonement – where Jesus apparently died for the sins of mankind?


Even the Quran contains the word Allah, and in other passages the Spirit and also Jesus……are we to assume this means trinity?

The above passages also shows that inspite of being tempted, he refused the temptation.
You are missing the point - the very fact he was being tempted goes against his divinity – because God cannot be tempted.


The point wasn’t about whether to refuse temptation but can Jesus be tempted, and the answer is yes. So what if Jesus refused temptation, I resisted the temptation to eat chocolate the other day.

In order to refuse temptation one has to be tempted in the first place and that was my initial point.


NIMROD

John 20:24-30 (New International Version)

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"


But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 20:24-30 (King James Version)

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
You are trying to say that the disciples believe they saw the Lord i.e. Jesus Christ. But then how is this consistent with the following passages.

“No man hath seen God at any time.”
(John 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.”
(Ex 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see”
(1 Tim 6:16)



PANTELLA

Hi akr4m and nimrod. You both offer very good arguements and evidence to support your respective sides of the debate, but again, none is proof.
If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A

Hence if Jesus = God, and Jesus = can be tempted then according to Aristotoles three law of logic God should also = can be tempted. But according to the Bible God cannot be tempted. And thats what i was trying to show in my previous post.

The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.


Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God does not exist. I am saying it cannot be proved. I believe God intended it that way. He wanted us to have faith.
To say "the Bible says this" or "the Quran says that" is well and good, and offers convincing evidence, but not proof.
Offer your 'proof' to an athiest and he/she will roll thier eyes. Why? Because the Quran and the Bible are just books to an athiest. You cannot prove that either comes from God.
Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.

Offering a proof to an atheist about Christ's divinity is stupidity – because an atheist doesn’t even believe in God.

The very fact that one has asked me to prove the divinity of Christ - it is then taken in to consideration that he believes God exist – because one cannot understand the issue of Christ’s divinity without first believing in God.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.
To an atheist it requires two proofs
1st God’s existence
Then the issue of Jesus’s divinity.
These require different proof’s not the same.

Hence I provided proof that Jesus does Not = God - to a person who believes in one of the scriptures – i.e. Quran or Bible.


I have put in bold the key to what I am saying. There are two inportant problems with this kind of 'proof'. As you have said, you must first believe in God. This requires faith, there is no proof. Next, "IF" the Quran is the word of God. "IF". You can provide me with (don't bother) really convincing evidence, but not proof. Therefore, no proof that Muhammed was a prophet. No proof that Jesus is God. No proof that God exists. We are back at faith.
Who said I was proving Mohammad (pbuh) was a prophet - if you read my post carefully I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).


My point exactly. You agree then that you need faith to view this evidence as proof. Looking at the evidence objectively, imagine if you had no faith for a moment, you can see why they would not see this as proof. Can you not? Of course the point is also, there is no proof that God does not exist.
Well yeah - why are you assuming that I was disagreeing with you?

But I also believe the universe and everything inside it are signs of God. I don’t follow Islam blind. There are many questions that an atheist cannot answer – which leaves me no option but to believe that the source must be God.


Of course, they use this same statement to explain why you believe what you believe. You can't prove them wrong. But they also can't prove you wrong.

This thread is about proof that Jesus is not God. Impossible to prove. Impossible to disprove. Forget it people, you are wasting your time. Concentrate on faith.
Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists. Because it is only logical to believe that Jesus cannot = God

Why don’t you do the following task make two categories - one with all the attributes of God and the other of Jesus (according to any of the scriptures bible or Quran) and then see if they are consistent. If not it is only logical that both these entities don’t equate – hence Jesus does not = God. I cannot give a simpler proof.


take care:)
:w:
Reply

Immunity
06-10-2006, 01:20 AM
Wow, Muslims him here know alot about the contents of the Bible!
Reply

nimrod
06-10-2006, 02:19 AM
Folks, I see that there have been a few repies to what I posted.
I promose, I will try, in the morning, to reply back to the repies.

I have been out all afternoon finishing the outside trim boards on the bay-window I built for the kitchen remodel/addition.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Woodrow
06-10-2006, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Immunity
Wow, Muslims him here know alot about the contents of the Bible!
Immunity, many of us are reverts from Christianity. I do not exactly how many, but we are a noticible number.
Reply

duskiness
06-10-2006, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
how is the trinity consistent with the atonement
- mystery. :) have You read "Life of Pi"??? (it's not a christian book - don't worry ;) ) It this book (sidenote: quite good book) there was sth like this: "if Jesus died, than God will forever have a taste of death in his mouth"


Originally Posted by akr4m
You are missing the point - the very fact he was being tempted goes against his divinity – because God cannot be tempted.
But He was also a human. We can be tempted


Originally Posted by akr4m
I resisted the temptation to eat chocolate the other day.
I try not to resist such a temptations ;)

Originally Posted by akr4m
“No man hath seen God at any time.”
(John 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.”
(Ex 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see”
(1 Tim 6:16)
- but there is also this quote with "who have seen me have seen the Father" (from my memory - i don't have time to check Bible)


Originally Posted by akr4m
If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A


The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/B]
Logic, You say?? Useless at some point. Whenever You say "God is allpowerfull" it is illogical (the stone paradox). But we say it..



Originally Posted by akr4m
You are confusing your self with the word proof.
To an atheist it requires two proofs
1st God’s existence
Then the issue of Jesus’s divinity.
These require different proof’s not the same.
Atheists are not required any proof. It was already said - one who claims that thers is sth has to prove. And there is no proof for God's existance

Originally Posted by akr4m
Who said I was proving Mohammad (pbuh) was a prophet - if you read my post carefully I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.

one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).
no, You cant prove that. Where is a proof there is a fact. Where there are proofs & facts - there is a knowledge. And we are talking about faith. We both walk by faith only



Originally Posted by akr4m
But I also believe the universe and everything inside it are signs of God. There are many questions that an atheist cannot answer – which leaves me no option but to believe that the source must be God.[/B]
:w:
signs- yes, You're right. Proof - no. And also fact that atheists don't know all answers, doesn't make faith in God rational.


You like Bible-quoting, don't You?? ;)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood (...)14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." /John 1/

salaam
n.
Reply

Panatella
06-10-2006, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A
Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things:) ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the sheppard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible.

Originally Posted by akr4m
The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/B]
Or you don't understand the definition of proof. Or possibly have not read my posts.
Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists.
Proof cannot be built on "belief", it can only be built on undeniable fact. It is only proof if it is an obvious, undeniable fact to all, not just believers.

I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky. Logic does not always necessarily equate proof. It can be used sometimes as proof, and sometimes as evidence to build a case when there is insufficent information for proof(as in your case).

Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.
Actually, I didn't. You must have confused me with another person.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.
No. I have a very good grasp of the meaning of the words 'proof' and 'faith', and also the concept of logic. Logic states that a particular outcome is predictable and inevitable. (of course God doesn't need to follow these rules)

I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.
You mean "evidence".

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).
[/B]This is like a lawyer in a court of law saying, "the evidence I am about to show you will be proof that the defendant is a murderer, if you will just believe that he is guilty. (Man! I sure wouldn't want to be tried in that court!)
Anyway, As I have said before. I don't need proof to know God exists. And Nobody can prove it. It is futile. Let it go. Work on your faith.
Reply

Panatella
06-10-2006, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
If one believes that Jesus = God then this defies the law which logic is built on according to Aristotle's three laws of logic, on which foundation rests all mathematical, physical, and rational thinking.
If A = B and B= C then C = A
Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things:) ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the shepard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible.

Originally Posted by akr4m
The only reason I could think of why you don’t accept this as proof is either you didn’t read my post or you don’t understand the concept of logic.[/B]
Or you don't understand the definition of proof. Or possibly have not read my posts.
Like I said - it is not impossible to prove this if you believe God exists.
Proof cannot be built on "belief", it can only be built on undeniable fact. It is only proof if it is an obvious, undeniable fact to all, not just believers.

I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky. Logic does not always necessarily equate proof. It can be used sometimes as proof, and sometimes as evidence to build a case when there is insufficent information for proof(as in your case).

Then why are you asking for proof whether Jesus claimed divinity? I assumed that you believed in one of the scriptures was from God.
Actually, I didn't. You must have confused me with another person.

You are confusing your self with the word proof.
No. I have a very good grasp of the meaning of the words 'proof' and 'faith', and also the concept of logic. Logic states that a particular outcome is predictable and inevitable. (of course God doesn't need to follow these rules)

I was giving guidelines on how one can provide proof that Mohammad is a prophet.
You mean "evidence".

I have already mentioned this before – in order to provide solid proof for the existence of any prophet not just Muhammad, but Abraham, Noah Adam, etc (may peace be upon all), one would have to prove that the Quran is the word of God – (which is possible, if one has an open mind).
[/B]This is like a lawyer in a court of law saying, "the evidence I am about to show you will be proof that the defendant is a murderer, if you will just believe that he is guilty. (Man! I sure wouldn't want to be tried in that court!)
Anyway, As I have said before. I don't need proof to know God exists. And Nobody can prove it. It is futile. Let it go. Work on your faith.
Reply

nimrod
06-11-2006, 02:21 AM
I always thought it was A squared plus B squared = C squared

Then you knew you had a 90 degree angle.

But what do I know?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

akr4m
06-11-2006, 02:49 AM
In the name of God most gracious most merciful
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.


:sl:

Greetings all

DUSKINESS

But He was also a human. We can be tempted
Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"



but there is also this quote with "who have seen me have seen the Father" (from my memory - i don't have time to check Bible)
This statement still does not support Jesus = God – it is read out of context.
But just say I agree with you – the issue doesn’t rest here. It just raises another contradictory passage in the bible - because then in some passages God him self tells us no man can see him at any time – and in another passage - God can be seen – hence there is a contradictory statement.


Logic, You say?? Useless at some point. Whenever You say "God is allpowerfull" it is illogical (the stone paradox). But we say it..
I think there is an article in this forum which talks about the stone paradox, which may answer a few things about this issue.

You like Bible-quoting, don't You??
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood (...)14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." /John 1/
I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.

However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

Hence if we where to translate the passage to support you argument it would be:
“In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
Hence Word = God himself

Then this would explain
“In beginning was the God (Word), and the God (Word) was with God……..”
Hence - God was with God = 2 Gods

But if we translate the passage in the appropriate manner i.e. Power = god:
“In beginning was the Power (Word), and the Power (Word) was with God…..”
It makes sense.

Therefore I would have to say this passage does not support Jesus = God.


Pantella

Well not that I was arguing this point (I am no authority on such things ) , but since you bring it up, I don't think God feels compelled to follow Aristotle's laws. God can do whatever he wants. He can defy logic. God can (not that he would) be a sheep and the shepard and shear his own wool if he wants. He is God. All things are possible
Sure God is not bound by logic - but that is not the point, the point is not what he can and cannot do - but would he?

The statement I had made in favour of Christ not = God were based on the bible passages – if this is his revelation - and a revelation is a means of communication with man – then why would he communicate with us illogically – In what way does this help us to understand his revelation, especially when we are bound by logic? How is that any good to man?

Why would God tell us to accept the following two contradictory statements?
1)he cannot be tempted and 2) can be tempted by satan – (that’s if you believe Jesus = God).
A contradictory statement is false - why is then God telling us to accept falsehood as truth? Then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth?


God would not contradict himself. Neither God nor his revelation would be contradictory. Otherwise, God would be a liar and that is not possible (Num. 23:19).

And if he does lie - then how does one trust him? – How do we know we will be guaranteed eternal paradise?

To sum up
If one believes Jesus = God - then he aught to believe:
God = can be tempted
God = cannot be tempted
Two contradictory statements hence
God = a liar.

and according to their scripture (the bible)

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"


I read your post. I am familiar with the concept of logic. No need to be cheeky
My apologies for being cheeky, that is not the way a Muslim should discuss matters. Inform me if I do that again.
take care:)

:w:
Reply

Joe98
06-11-2006, 07:42 AM
To akr4m:

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?
Reply

Umar001
06-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
To akr4m:

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?

Have you heard of the term 'convert'?

Anyhow with the rest of the topic Im not gonna get involved cos it seems to have gone way too deep for me to try come into it now. lol peace
Reply

akr4m
06-11-2006, 11:10 PM
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

:sl:

First of all - please forgive me if i have heart anyone in anyway - that was not my intention - i was just doing my part by providing my evidence to support my case.

Christians have a belief. You can attempt to disprove it as much as you want. It will not change their belief.
Will all due respect then why are you here in this forum? I assumed all non - muslims where here to learn about Islam - and since this is a comparative religion section i thought we were discussing these issues.

And yes there are those who have "reverted" to Islam, despite their christian belief

Here is an example. Muslims believe God spoke to Muhammed (pbuh). I say God did not. Does this change your belief?
I am afraid it does not change my belief because you havent provided any evidence to support your case.

:sl:
Reply

duskiness
06-12-2006, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
[B]
I think there is an article in this forum which talks about the stone paradox, which may answer a few things about this issue.
- thx. i'll look for it



Originally Posted by akr4m
[B]I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go
- sorry, i know it can be bornig ;)

Originally Posted by akr4m
The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’.
- "ho Theos" i think....
Originally Posted by akr4m
However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”
- yup, You can translate it like this


Originally Posted by akr4m
However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. Noun "Thoes" with or without article means: a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”
- all correct

Originally Posted by akr4m
Then this would explain
“In beginning was the God (Word), and the God (Word) was with God……..”
Hence - God was with God = 2 Gods
+1 = Trinity :) (

Originally Posted by akr4m
But if we translate the passage in the appropriate manner i.e. Power = god:
“In beginning was the Power (Word), and the Power (Word) was with God…..”
It makes sense.
No, You are wrong here: first You want to translate "theos" with "power", than "logos" with "power". Using one noun to translate 2 noun in 1 sentance is a bad idea...
And in the end i trust that people who are translating bible know their job. Because they probobly know greek better than any of us here...

Originally Posted by akr4m
The statement I had made in favour of Christ not = God were based on the bible passages – if this is his revelation - and a revelation is a means of communication with man – then why would he communicate with us illogically – In what way does this help us to understand his revelation, especially when we are bound by logic? How is that any good to man?

Why would God tell us to accept the following two contradictory statements?
1)he cannot be tempted and 2) can be tempted by satan – (that’s if you believe Jesus = God).
A contradictory statement is false - why is then God telling us to accept falsehood as truth? Then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth?
- about bible, revelatino, mistakes, contradiction there is other thread, i don't want to repeat myself here..


Originally Posted by akr4m
God would not contradict himself. Neither God nor his revelation would be contradictory. Otherwise, God would be a liar and that is not possible (Num. 23:19).
I never understand why there can't be any contradiction in revelation???

Originally Posted by akr4m
then how does one trust him? – How do we know we will be guaranteed eternal paradise?
We are not guarateed anything...

And i DO know that what i believe is "a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles" - or in modern translation: "a stumbling block to Muslims and foolishness to atheistis" (1cor 1:23) :)
n.
Reply

akr4m
06-13-2006, 01:41 AM
In the name of Allah most Gracious most Merciful

:sl:
DUSKINESS
+1 = Trinity (
ok fair enough 2+1 = 3 Gods
I thought Christians believed in monotheism?


No, You are wrong here: first You want to translate "theos" with "power", than "logos" with "power". Using one noun to translate 2 noun in 1 sentance is a bad idea... And in the end i trust that people who are translating bible know their job. Because they probobly know greek better than any of us here...
Fair point……. But if we do that - then we also aught to believe Moses & Devil = God Because the same indefinite form for God (Tontheos) was used to describe Moses and the devil in Exodus 7:1, Corinthians 4:4

If we follow what they say – i.e.
“…And the word was God”…… as the definite form (i.e.Hotheos not tontheos)
Then we aught to take the indefinite form used to describe the devil and Moses as definite as well i.e. Hotheos.
Hence Moses = God
Devil = God

why did they choose to take the indefinite form for God to be definite in one passage and not the other?


I never understand why there can't be any contradiction in revelation???
Read my post again inshallah (if God willing) you may understand
If there is contradictions in God’s revelation– then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth - how do we know whether it was a revelation from God or some man (men are prone to errors – just take a look at the bible).


take care duskiness:)
:w:
Reply

Joe98
06-13-2006, 06:23 AM
akr4m,

Christains have a belief.

You are not asked to believe it

But you cannot change it.

I understand the Muslim's belief. But I don't believe it.
Reply

cyberpi
06-13-2006, 07:18 AM
Nlow that we are clear that Isa (Jesus) is not God, or 1/3 of God, which is obvious to most who read the bible or qur'an for themselves... particularly the words of Isa himself...

What exactly is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Perhaps if the people are forgiven for confusing Isa with God, that those who confuse an angel Gabriel with the Holy Spirit might be forgiven?
Reply

Joe98
06-13-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by cyberpi
Nlow that we are clear that Isa (Jesus) is not God, or 1/3 of God, which is obvious to most who read the bible or qur'an for themselves...

Why don't you ask the Vatican what they believe? Its not so obvious to them!
Reply

duskiness
06-13-2006, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by akr4m
ok fair enough 2+1 = 3 Gods
I thought Christians believed in monotheism?
"Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God." - once more Athanasian Creed ;). I think You can't catch me here (or any other christian in fact). We can always make one step back, into Trinity dogma, which is difficult to be logicly underminded.


Originally Posted by akr4m
then we also aught to believe Moses & Devil = God Because the same indefinite form for God (Tontheos) was used to describe Moses and the devil in Exodus 7:1, Corinthians 4:4
(...)
Hence Moses = God
Devil = God
- maybe we ought to read it as metaphor??


why did they choose to take the indefinite form for God to be definite in one passage and not the other?[/QUOTE] - are You sure that definite/indefinite worked in greek like it does in english??


Read my post again inshallah (if God willing) you may understand
If there is contradictions in God’s revelation– then how does man differentiate falsehood from truth - how do we know whether it was a revelation from God or some man (men are prone to errors – just take a look at the bible).

- no, He seems no to be willing ;)
I'll try to present the way i view revalation, ok? But is's a metaphor ;)
So let's say God is a water, or a stream, and human a bottle. A very dirty one. If you would like to take a water from a stream (revaltion) than:
-thery is planty of water outside the bottle ("Now I know in part; then I shall know fully")
-water has to take the form of the bottle and is not in "natural shape"
- the bottle was dirty (culture, history, human emotions, language stractures...etc). So in the end, all you have to drink is some dirty water. (but as a christian i believe that 2000 years ago water - willingly - filled an clear bottle but You know this 'story") ;)

salaam :)
Reply

duskiness
06-13-2006, 02:31 PM
...forgot to edit it. sorry for the way it looks
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-13-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
...forgot to edit it. sorry for the way it looks
Not good enough :)
Reply

duskiness
06-13-2006, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Why don't you ask the Vatican what they believe? Its not so obvious to them!
- Joe i warn You! One more such a post and You gona be adwarded with title "Defensor fidei" ;)
n.
Reply

duskiness
06-13-2006, 03:06 PM
AvarAllahNoor, You're right..."planty", "revalation", "revaltion". "Sorry" is simply not enough ;)
n.
Reply

cyberpi
06-13-2006, 05:01 PM
I am relieved that nobody responded with the belief: angel Gabriel = Holy Spirit... which would be akin to saying that a man authored the Qur'an.

Since this is squarely the Trinity debate: What are the 3 rivers taught by the 3 Ibrahim religions? What virtue or quality does each focus in teaching?
Reply

duskiness
06-14-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by cyberpi
What virtue or quality does each focus in teaching?
:? maybe:
Judaism - Law
Christianity - Mercy
Islam - Justice

and what do You think about that?
n.
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
06-23-2006, 05:28 AM
Some Christians say:
God has certain attributes which makes Him God. And if the Son also has these same attributes then that must make Jesus God.
:rollseyes
Is it like the argument that
if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s a duck ?


There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which deny Jesus’ divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” :?

:) There are verses in the Qur‘aan which confirm Prophet Muhammad’s humanity, in order to prevent his followers from elevating him to a divine or semi-divine status, as was done to Prophet Jesus.
Reply

Muslim Knight
06-23-2006, 06:39 AM
You should really venture into Christian forums. That'd be real da'wah challenge. Here we too many experts already.
Reply

Umar001
06-23-2006, 03:52 PM
If we were to post what Jesus said (according to the BIble and Quran) it would look like this.

Originally Posted by Biblical Jesus
my God and your God.

Originally Posted by Qu'ranic Jesus
my Lord and your Lord

Makes me happy.
Reply

Phil12123
06-25-2006, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Muzammil
There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which deny Jesus’ divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
No, the above passages do NOT deny Jesus' divinity. First, you must read them very carefully, and not read INTO them something that He did NOT say. Secondly, you must read them in the context of His earthly ministry in which He humbled Himself (positionally) when He left heaven to take on human form, submitting totally to the Father in everything He did, said, and thought (our perfect example). Finally, you must read them in the greater context of the entire New Testament with other passages that bear on the subject.

I've heard all these passages quoted by other people, specifically Jehovah's Witnesses, who use them to try to disprove Christ's Deity. As Peter said of others, they wrestle with the Scriptures "to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

Let's look at the first passage. The rich young ruler addresses Jesus with a question, "Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He first replies, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but one, God." Now notice what He says and what He does NOT say. He says, God is the only one who is good. But He does NOT say that HE, Jesus, is NOT good. In fact, He says elsewhere, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Elsewhere He also affirms His sinlessness (John 8:46; see also 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5). So He is not saying that HE is not good. He is simply looking for an acknowledgment from the ruler that if he’s going to call Jesus "good" he must also recognize Him as God. And you will notice, the ruler does not do that. In verse 20 of Mark 10, he changes the address to simply, “Master.” And finally, if the ruler had recognized Jesus as God, he would have obeyed Him, doing everything He said. But he didn’t. Instead, he went away sorrowful (Matt. 19:22; Luke 18:23) and grieved (Mark 10:22).

In the second passage, John 14:28, Jesus says to His disciples (let’s look at the entire verse):

"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.”

In His humbled state, in the form of a servant/slave as He walked this earth, Jesus rightly referred to the Father as “greater,” but in terms of what? Certainly at that time, in terms of position and glory, both of which Jesus had temporarily set aside for our sakes to be “made flesh” (John 1:1,14). You say, “By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God.” Correction, He distinguishes Himself from the Father. And no one says they aren’t distinguishable---they are indeed separate personages. But remember, BEFORE He was made flesh and dwelt among us, He was “the Word” Who was WITH God (the Father) and WAS God (i.e., Deity, in essence, substance and nature)—John 1:1. So, if He WAS GOD, or DEITY, He cannot ever cease to be that, even though He humbled Himself to take on the form of a servant/slave. So the “greater” cannot refer to deity, but rather position or glory.

In the second passage, we see Jesus in speaking to Mary Magdalene referring to His ascending to “my Father and your Father and my God and your God.” I’ve had Jehovah’s Witnesses slide up to this verse, verse 17 of John 20, after being unable to adequately explain away the clear statement of verse 28 where Thomas addresses the risen Christ with, “My Lord and my God,” which Christ does not correct or deny. Because there is no correction, we can conclude that the Father is Thomas’ God (from verse 17) as well as Christ is Thomas’ God (v. 28). Does Thomas have two Gods? No, because the Trinity says three Persons in ONE God.

But the real concern with John 20:17 is that Christ Himself refers to the Father as “my God.” I used to wonder about that until I saw Hebrews 1:8, in which the Father in speaking TO THE SON says, “Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.” So here we see the Father calling the Son “God”! And if that’s so, the Son can refer to the Father as “my God” and the Father can refer to the Son in the same way, or at least as “God.” So, to me, John 20:17 is not a problem. By the way, while you’re looking at Hebrews, chapter 1, for verse 8, look at verse 6 too. There you have the Father telling all the angels to worship the Son. Now, if Jesus is just a man, how can angels be told to worship Him? Only God is to be worshipped, right? Right. But since the Son is God, that’s not a problem either.

Finally, Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” The reference to “the man” Christ Jesus is referring to His humanity in which He lived a perfect, sinless life, thereby qualifying Him to BE our mediator between a holy, righteous God and us sinful men. It is not because Jesus is God that qualifies Jesus to be our mediator. It is because He was a sinless MAN that qualifies Him. He is our sinless, perfect High Priest Who is not only the mediator or intercessor between God and us for our sins’ sake, but in fact is the very Offering for sin Himself at the Cross. Only as a MAN could He die and shed His blood as an atonement for sins. Consider Hebrews 10:10-14:

10. . . . we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So Christ is the Offering or “the Lamb of God” who takes away the sin of the world, as John the Baptist said (John 1:29), as well as our advocate, intercessor, and mediator with the Father (1 John 2:1).

Now, if the angels are told to worship Him, can we do any less? Remember, we are to honor Him just as, or to the same extent that, we honor the Father Who sent him (John 5:23).

Peace
Reply

noshaba
06-25-2006, 01:39 PM
NO, Jesus is not GOD, he is appraised 2 b the son of God acording to CHRISTIANS...
:sl:
Reply

duskiness
06-25-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by noshaba
NO, Jesus is not GOD
I think i disagree ;)
Reply

Phil12123
06-26-2006, 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by noshaba
NO, Jesus is not GOD, he is appraised 2 b the son of God acording to CHRISTIANS...
:sl:
No and Yes. He IS God, according to Christians. And He is the Son of God, according to Christians. If you need an explanation of that, I can copy and paste from where I explained it before. I don't have a link for it.

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-26-2006, 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by akr4m
[B]I’ve answered this before within this forum don’t know which thread though, anyways I’ll give it another go

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form Hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form Tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.

The Greek word for "God" used in second clause of the verse “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form ho theos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the third clause “and the Word was God”, the definite article "ho" (=the) is missing, so the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form theos, which means ‘'God". There are rules of Greek grammar that explain that. Let me see if I can articulate them.

First, in the Greek language, there is no indefinite article, like "a". For a sentence to be translated with an "a" the translator may look for the definite article "the" or "ho" and if none is there, he might render it, for example, "boy" or "a boy" depending on the context; he would not render it "the boy".

Secondly, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word order in the original Greek is literally, "and God was the Word" But the subject of the entire verse is "the Word" not God. So to make it clear that "the Word" is the subject, there can be no "the" before "God" or it would be uncertain what the subject of the clause is and what the predicate nominative is. That is, it would be literally, "and the God was the Word." In that case God and Word would be interchangeable and we would not know which is the subject and which is the predicate nominative. The definite article "the" is left out before "God" not so a translator would render it "a God" or "a god" but so that we know "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative.

So, if "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative, what does the clause mean when it says, "and the Word was God"? The use of the definite article and "God" in the second clause, "and the Word was with [the] God" shows the distinction of persons, one WITH the other---two persons, the Word (Jesus before the incarnation) and the Father.

But in the third clause, "the Word was God," the word "God" is a descriptive noun telling us not WHO the Word is, but WHAT the Word is. He is GOD or DEITY, as to His essence, substance or nature. He is not the Father, with whom He is, but He is the same as the Father in terms of His essence, substance or nature. He is fully God or Deity, as the Father is, but He is not the Father. He is a separate personage, equal to the Father in His essence, substance or nature. But since that essence, substance, or nature is the SAME for both the Father and the Word, there are not TWO Gods, but ONE.

Consequently, John 1:1, can accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Peace
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
06-26-2006, 08:58 AM
k whats the meaning of the name "nimrod"........... (Is it King Namrood.... who was against Prophet Ibrahim Alaihis salaam)
Reply

Asyur an-Nagi
06-26-2006, 10:52 AM
ask someone close to him?
Reply

nimrod
06-27-2006, 04:02 AM
Nimrod was a great archer/hunter before God.

I very much enjoy shooting my Bow. I am pretty good at it, so I adopted the name of an Archer from the Bible.
Some folks, I am sure, think I should have adopted the name Nabob though.:rollseyes

I hope that answers it.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

person
06-27-2006, 11:02 AM
Isa (AS) was not god. He was a slave of Allah and Allah chose him to be His messenger.
Reply

Phil12123
06-27-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by person
Isa (AS) was not god. He was a slave of Allah and Allah chose him to be His messenger.
What you say is right to you and wrong to me. We each base our beliefs on what we believe to be the Word of God (Quran for you and Bible for me).

We foster understanding between adherents of our two religions when we say WHY we believe something, such as your statement, rather than just stating it, as you have done. I have tried to back everything I say up with a scriptural citation, so you can check it out, to see if what I say is at least supported by my authority, the Bible. Even if you reject the Bible, at least you will know why I believe something I say in my posts.

It is interesting, though, that our respective authorities definitely cannot BOTH be true, at least not on this subject, the Deity of Christ, or Is Jesus God? This is obviously an extremely important subject because if Jesus IS in fact God, equal with the Father, to say otherwise and to teach others that He is NOT, would seem to bring serious consequences, if not now, then certainly for all eternity. That would be especially true if Jesus Himself is going to be our Judge, as John 5:22-23; Romans 14:10; and 2 Cor. 5:10 teach.

The two most important matters, in my opinion, that bear on our eternal destination, are 1. WHO is Jesus? and 2. WHAT did He do?---the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

This thread is about the first matter---WHO is Jesus? And more specifically, Is He God?

For the Christian, He was/is God come in the flesh to live a perfect, sinless life and then go to the Cross to die for the sins of mankind, making an atonement for sin, to reconcile sinful man back to a Holy and Righteous God. Since all men are sinners, no mere man could ever pay for those sins. It had to be God Himself in the Person of His sinless Son that could pay for sins by the sacrifice of Himself. His resurrection and showing Himself alive to hundreds of people over 40 days before ascending back to heaven was the confirmation that His payment was accepted by the Father, opening the gates of heaven to all who accept that payment personally and individually for their own sins, receiving the Risen and Living Christ into their lives as their own personal Savior and Lord.

Correct me if I’m wrong but it is my understanding that the Quran denies the above, both as to WHO Jesus is and WHAT He did. It teaches He is a mere man, not God come in the flesh. It also denies that He died on a Roman cross, let alone that His death paid for anyone’s sins. The Bible teaches the opposite on both points:

THAT HE IS GOD:

John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:9 (NASB) For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.

and many other passages.


THAT HE DIED FOR OUR SINS:

Romans 5:8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 15:
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 3:18. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

and many other passages.


I am still puzzled as to HOW anyone can deny a fact of history, namely, that Jesus Christ was crucified on a Roman cross, a fact substantiated by non-biblical, historical sources. And secondly, if He didn’t die for your sins, HOW do you propose that your sins will ever be paid for, unless you pay for them yourself for all eternity?

Peace
Reply

Tariq Baker
06-27-2006, 05:46 PM
Thanks be to Allah (swt) for all who have posted. In my daily renewal as a Muslim I am faced with this question daily. I have been 'programed" to believe Jesus (Isa, pbuh) is God, Son of God and part of a Trinity. But in my heart and mind I know this cannot be true. Allah (swt) who does not have a body thus cannot (or apparently would not) have an offspring. (Let me redefine that...if Allah chooses He could create a son, but why would he?)

In other words, why would a Heavenly Father who created us have to sacrifice a son, who was infinite and remained infinite even while he was finite, to save us. He had told us through the prophets how to be saved. Then, how can God die...if he died, would he not be god; if he didn't then god was not true to "his word" (as Christians understand it).

That is what I finally believe, praise Allah. And when the influence of Christianity (I'd be tempted to say cancer, but thats just my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone) comes at me that is how I remind myself of the Truth. The Shahada states it.

Sorry, I don't mean to ramble. But what I mean to do is thank you, my Muslim brothers and sisters, for offering such intelligent and heartfelt exposition of the Right Path.
Reply

Phil12123
06-28-2006, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by islamgyal
Muslims often misunderstand the term "Son of God" to mean that God literally had sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus. That is not what the term means, nor is it what the Bible teaches, and it is not what Christianity teaches. The term "Son of God" refers not to procreation, but to a special relationship that Jesus has with God the Father.
The phrase "Son of God" occurs 43 times in the New American Standard Bible and it refers to Jesus. The term is specifically designated as a title in Romans 1:4, "who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord." Notice that it says Jesus was declared the Son of God. This shows that it is a title and does not mean that he was begotten through sexual relations between God and Mary, Also, Jesus calls himself the Son in Mark 13:32, "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."1 And at Jesus' baptism, God speaks from heaven and says, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased," (Mark. 1:11). Clearly, Jesus is said to be the Son of God by the scriptures, by the Father, and by himself.
Here are a few verses worth noting:

John 1:49, "Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." 50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these."
Nathaniel calls Jesus the son of God and Jesus does not correct him. Jesus affirms Nathaniel's belief.
John 10:36-37, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me."
Jesus is affirming that he is the son of God.
John 11:3, "But when Jesus heard it, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
Jesus calls himself the Son of God.
John 19:7, "The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."
The Jews understood that to claim to be the son of God was to claimed to be equal with God.
John 20:30, "but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
The apostle John wrote the gospel so that we might know and believe that Jesus is the son of God.
regards,
samantha
Well said, Samantha. You've done your homework!

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-28-2006, 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
Thanks be to Allah (swt) for all who have posted. In my daily renewal as a Muslim I am faced with this question daily. I have been 'programed" to believe Jesus (Isa, pbuh) is God, Son of God and part of a Trinity. But in my heart and mind I know this cannot be true. Allah (swt) who does not have a body thus cannot (or apparently would not) have an offspring. (Let me redefine that...if Allah chooses He could create a son, but why would he?)
I think what Samantha said above might clear up the confusion over God having a Son and how Jesus can be the Son of God as both He and the Father, and others declared. God did not create the Son. The Son actually created everything:

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Colossians 1:16. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.


Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
In other words, why would a Heavenly Father who created us have to sacrifice a son, who was infinite and remained infinite even while he was finite, to save us. He had told us through the prophets how to be saved.
He had to sacrifice a Son because of our sins. Either WE pay for them for all eternity, or we accept the Son's payment on our behalf. ALL sin must be punished. It doesn't just go away. God's justice requires payment. Even if we never sinned again for the rest of our lives, we would still have past sin that needed payment. Doing good does not cancel out all the bad we do. The only thing that cancels sin is PAYMENT FOR IT. That is what Jesus died on the cross.

You say, "He told us through the prophets how to be saved." That's true and look what the prophet Isaiah said:

Isaiah 53:
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him
; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied. by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
Then, how can God die...if he died, would he not be god; if he didn't then god was not true to "his word" (as Christians understand it).
Before Jesus took a body, He was "the Word" in heaven with the God the Father. He was in the form of God and equal with God. In that form, He could not die. That is why He had to take on a body, which could die, to pay for our sins. Philippians 2:5-11 explains it this way:

5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 3:18 puts it this way:
18. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Jesus is "the just" or the sinless or righteous one. We are "the unjust", sinners in word, thought and deed. He suffered for OUR sins (He had none of His own to pay for), "that He might bring us to God." Our sins separate us from a Holy, Righteous God. Jesus bridges that gap by paying for those sins, thereby removing our condemnation and making us "justified" or "just as if we had never sinned." Jesus, the JUST One, makes us UNJUST ones "JUST" by His payment for our sins.

When He was on the Cross, just as He is about to die, He said, "IT IS FINISHED!" The Greek word is tetelestai, which also means, "IT IS PAID IN FULL". In Bible times, that word would be written on payment receipts if an account or bill was paid off.

Consider this a moment. Man in his sinful condition cannot save himself. He is utterly without the capacity or inclination to make himself right with God. In that state, man stands condemned before God. God could rightly send all mankind to hell or the lake of fire. It would be totally JUST for God to do that. However, God is also loving and merciful and not willing that any should perish, but He cannot just let sinful man off the hook and into a perfect, sinless heaven in man's fallen, sinful state. So God sends His own perfect, sinless Son to earth, taking on a body, to live a perfect, sinless life, and then go to the Cross to die for all the sins of the world. God has thereby provided man with the remedy for his sins, so that upon acceptance of the Son's payment, a man can have his sins freely forgiven by virtue of their having been paid for by Christ. Now, what is your situation if you reject that payment? You are already under condemnation for your sins, so the sentence is simply carried out at the judgment and you are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15). Is that what you want? I think not. But unless you accept Jesus' payment for your sins, you are rejecting God's own remedy and He is left with no other possible course of action at the judgment than to carry out your eternal death sentence. In the final analysis, YOU make the choice. He simply sentences you based on YOUR choice. And after reading this and knowing all this, you will have no excuse that you didn't know that you SHOULD make that choice. Right now as you finish reading this, you will make a choice, to accept Christ's payment for your sins, or to reject it. ONLY YOU can make that choice. What will your choice be?

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-28-2006, 02:58 PM
Sorry, my last post contained a typographical error which I found when re-reading it after posting. I have corrected the error here, although when copying and pasteing, the quote boxes disappeared, so I will make the font different colors (sorry about the error):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
Thanks be to Allah (swt) for all who have posted. In my daily renewal as a Muslim I am faced with this question daily. I have been 'programed" to believe Jesus (Isa, pbuh) is God, Son of God and part of a Trinity. But in my heart and mind I know this cannot be true. Allah (swt) who does not have a body thus cannot (or apparently would not) have an offspring. (Let me redefine that...if Allah chooses He could create a son, but why would he?)

I think what Samantha said above might clear up the confusion over God having a Son and how Jesus can be the Son of God as both He and the Father, and others declared. God did not create the Son. The Son actually created everything:

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
In other words, why would a Heavenly Father who created us have to sacrifice a son, who was infinite and remained infinite even while he was finite, to save us. He had told us through the prophets how to be saved.

He had to sacrifice a Son because of our sins. Either WE pay for them for all eternity, or we accept the Son's payment on our behalf. ALL sin must be punished. It doesn't just go away. God's justice requires payment. Even if we never sinned again for the rest of our lives, we would still have past sin that needed payment. Doing good does not cancel out all the bad we do. The only thing that cancels sin is PAYMENT FOR IT. That is what Jesus did on the cross. [Here, I have corrected the typo, "did" not "died"]

You say, "He told us through the prophets how to be saved." That's true and look what the prophet Isaiah said:

Isaiah 53:
5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him
; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied. by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tariq Baker
Then, how can God die...if he died, would he not be god; if he didn't then god was not true to "his word" (as Christians understand it).

Before Jesus took a body, He was "the Word" in heaven with the God the Father. He was in the form of God and equal with God. In that form, He could not die. That is why He had to take on a body, which could die, to pay for our sins. Philippians 2:5-11 explains it this way:

5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Peter 3:18 puts it this way:
18. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Jesus is "the just" or the sinless or righteous one. We are "the unjust", sinners in word, thought and deed. He suffered for OUR sins (He had none of His own to pay for), "that He might bring us to God." Our sins separate us from a Holy, Righteous God. Jesus bridges that gap by paying for those sins, thereby removing our condemnation and making us "justified" or "just as if we had never sinned." Jesus, the JUST One, makes us UNJUST ones "JUST" by His payment for our sins.

When He was on the Cross, just as He is about to die, He said, "IT IS FINISHED!" The Greek word is tetelestai, which also means, "IT IS PAID IN FULL". In Bible times, that word would be written on payment receipts if an account or bill was paid off.

Consider this a moment. Man in his sinful condition cannot save himself. He is utterly without the capacity or inclination to make himself right with God. In that state, man stands condemned before God. God could rightly send all mankind to hell or the lake of fire. It would be totally JUST for God to do that. However, God is also loving and merciful and not willing that any should perish, but He cannot just let sinful man off the hook and into a perfect, sinless heaven in man's fallen, sinful state. So God sends His own perfect, sinless Son to earth, taking on a body, to live a perfect, sinless life, and then go to the Cross to die for all the sins of the world. God has thereby provided man with the remedy for his sins, so that upon acceptance of the Son's payment, a man can have his sins freely forgiven by virtue of their having been paid for by Christ. Now, what is your situation if you reject that payment? You are already under condemnation for your sins, so the sentence is simply carried out at the judgment and you are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15). Is that what you want? I think not. But unless you accept Jesus' payment for your sins, you are rejecting God's own remedy and He is left with no other possible course of action at the judgment than to carry out your eternal death sentence. In the final analysis, YOU make the choice. He simply sentences you based on YOUR choice. And after reading this and knowing all this, you will have no excuse that you didn't know that you SHOULD make that choice. Right now as you finish reading this, you will make a choice, to accept Christ's payment for your sins, or to reject it. ONLY YOU can make that choice. What will your choice be?

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-28-2006, 03:21 PM
A friend recently asked me a good question: "WHO is Yahweh?

"Yahweh" is the sacred name of God in the Old Testament, which in the Hebrew consisted really of four letters---YHWH---all consonants, no vowels. Someone inserted vowels to make it pronounceable. It is the same as "Jehovah" which is really not accurate. In the English translation known as the King James Version, YHWH is everywhere translated "LORD" (all capital letters) except in 4 places where it is rendered "Jehovah" (Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2 and 26:4). Just from common usage, "Jehovah" is more often used than "Yahweh" but the latter is actually more accurate, though even it is not what the original says. There are other names for God, such as Adonai, which the KJV renders in the English as "Lord" (not all capitals).

God's Name was so sacred in Old Testament times that, to avoid taking it in vain, in violation of the Third Commandment, one of the other names was usually spoken, such as Adonai, when the Scripture was read at the point that YHWH appeared in the text. Today, I've seen in these posts from time to time the use of "G-d" for "God." Not sure why that is, the writer for some reason not wanting to say the word "God" whether out of reverence or perhaps the opposite---not believing in God. I invite anyone who does that to explain why.

Peace
Reply

Umar001
06-29-2006, 02:07 PM
When our own Jewish Answer giving Brother was asked this he/she replied:

Correct. We will only write the "o" in G-d when it has to do with prayer. We do not use his name in common discussion like that.

Hashem is another way of saying G-d.

When a Jew yells "Hashem is our King", "Hashem was always our King", "Hashem will be our King forever!"

It is the equivolent of you saying... "Allah is great!" :-)
http://www.islamicboard.com/362142-post32.html

Personally, I do it from having spend a while on a different forum in which I had a jewish friend so when we discussed G-d I picked up from him outa respect for him.

Although from my understanding it is more relaxed if it is online, if it were on paper it would be different no chance of writing the whole thing. similar to Muslims and the names of G-d.
Reply

IceQueen~
06-29-2006, 02:10 PM
any christian please answer me-do xians believe that GOd is All-Powerful?
Reply

Phil12123
06-30-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Marya1
any christian please answer me-do xians believe that GOd is All-Powerful?
Yes, but I'm wondering why you're asking. Are you setting me up for some kind of stone paradox?

Peace
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-30-2006, 10:09 PM
I can't speak in Mayra's name, but the stone-paradox is flawed and answered in Islam so I don't think that was her intention.
Reply

Pinkie
07-01-2006, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Marya1
any christian please answer me-do xians believe that GOd is All-Powerful?
Yes of course, Christians believe God is all powerful. They also believe he is the creator of the universe and so one and so forth.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  2. Replies: 106
    Last Post: 03-24-2011, 04:11 AM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-22-2010, 11:20 PM
  4. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-29-2008, 06:17 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!