Virgin birth

[glo]

A question in the 'Questions for Christians thread' (which is not meant for discussion) has prompted me to post this.

Muslims seem to struggle with the concept of God divinely causing Mary (Jesus' mother) to become pregnant.
My guess is the true tension behind this, is not God's power or ability to overrule the laws of nature to do so (after all, Muslims believe God to be all-powerful, don't they?) - but the thought of God fathering his son.
At heart (I guess), this is a trinity issue.

I am sure we have debated the trinity elsewhere, so I don't really want to go there again.

Rather I want to unpluck, how the Islamic and Christian views of Jesus' virgin birth differ.

So, really, I am reversing the question to my Muslim brothers and sisters:

How do Muslims believe, Jesus' conception came about? Muslims also believe in the virgin birth, don't they?

Peace. :thankyou:

[dianputri]

How do Muslims believe, Jesus' conception came about? Muslims also believe in the virgin birth, don't they?

this question always make me bored. why christian always reply and reply all over again, infact muslim had answer this question.

we believe virgin birth, but we dont believe in jesus.. Jesus is not ISA Al MAsih which is our prophet. He is somebody else !!!

our prophet ISA Al MAsih is under ALLAH SWT protection. And ISA Al MAsih never been in crucified.

[glo]

this question always make me bored. why christian always reply and reply all over again, infact muslim had answer this question.

we believe virgin birth, but we dont believe in jesus.. Jesus is not ISA Al MAsih which is our prophet. He is somebody else !!!

our prophet ISA Al MAsih is under ALLAH SWT protection. And ISA Al MAsih never been in crucified.

Why are you reacting like this?
In fact, if this question bores you so, why react at all? :?

Jesus is not Isa, your prophet? You are the first Muslim I have ever heard that say! Can you expand on that?

For the sake of the original question I asked, please note that I made no reference to whether Jesus is the son of God - in fact, I clearly requested that this should not become a trinity issue.

My question is this:
How did Isa's conception come about? Muslims also believe in the virgin birth, don't they?
(For clarification I have rephrased the question) :)

Thanks. :thankyou:

[Halima]

Okay ^ well that is the difference between what the Christians and muslims believe. To take this into a discussion into refutation will be at anyone's risk.


Christians have their own reasons just like the muslims do.

seem to struggle with the concept of God divinely causing Mary (Jesus' mother) to become pregnant.
My guess is the true tension behind this, is not God's power or ability to overrule the laws of nature to do so (after all, Muslims believe God to be all-powerful, don't they?) -

If it is not God's power to overrule the laws of nature then are you saying that no one knows how this happend? A valid statement or reason is not written in the bible of how Jesus came from Mary, but yet she was still a virgin? Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me.

For instance-In the Quran there is a reason for all of the morals and beliefs that we abide by and it's ALL written down in the the Quran.

but the thought of God fathering his son

We never believed that Jesus is "God's son. Jesus was simply one of the Prophets of God. He was wasn't a messiah or anything.That is another contradiction between the muslims and Christians that I have just stated above.

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[Woodrow]

Peace Glo,

I think the translation of Isa's(PBUH) Birth would be the best explanation. This is from Surah: Maryam, (Mary) Translation by Adullah Yusuf Ali,

19:16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. S P C

19:17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. S P
19:18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." S P
19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. S P C

19:20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" S P
19:21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed." S P C
19:22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. S P C

19:23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" S P C
19:24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; S P
19:25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. S P C

19:26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'" S
P C
19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! S P C

19:28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" S P C
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" S P C
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; S P

19:31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; S P C
19:32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; S P C
19:33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! S P C

19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

[glo]

Okay ^ well that is the difference between what the Christians and muslims believe. To take this into a discussion into refutation will be at anyone's risk.


Christians have their own reasons just like the muslims do.



If it is not God's power to overrule the laws of nature then are you saying that no one knows how this happend? A valid statement or reason is not written in the bible of how Jesus came from Mary, but yet she was still a virgin? Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me.

For instance-In the Quran there is a reason for all of the morals and beliefs that we abide by and it's ALL written down in the the Quran.



We never believed that Jesus is "God's son. Jesus was simply one of the Prophets of God. He was wasn't a messiah or anything.That is another contradiction between the muslims and Christians that I have just stated above.

Hhhmmmm ...
can somebody just please answer my original question:

How did Isa's conception come about? Muslims also believe in the virgin birth, don't they?

:rollseyes

Peace

[Woodrow]

Peace Glo,

I thought I answered it above. See 19:21.

Allah (swt) decreed it to be and it was.

[glo]

Ahhhh ... thank you Woodrow! :statisfie

The account of the angel appearing to Mary to announce the pregnancy is not dissimilar to the Bible account, don't you think?

I love this bit:
"Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me" That's so true, isn't it? :statisfie

Peace.

[Woodrow]

A'afwan (Your Welcome ) Glo

I agree Glo, the announcement by the Angel is virtualy identical with the Biblical account.

The entire Surah 19 (Maryam) tells much about Isa (PBUH) and Mary (Maryam). Few people realise that Mary is mentioned more often in the Qur'an then in the Bible. Isa is mentioned just about as many times, as He is in the Bible. All of the miracles are mentioned in the Qur'an along with some not mentioned in the Bible.

[muzna]

Ahhhh ... thank you Woodrow! :statisfie

The account of the angel appearing to Mary to announce the pregnancy is not dissimilar to the Bible account, don't you think?

I love this bit:
"Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me" That's so true, isn't it? :statisfie

Peace.

yes..however..we do not believe that God is the father of Jesus as to be the father of someone mortal would mean interaction with the child's mortal mother and we believe that thought abhorable (sp?) and that God is above that. God created Isa the way He created the world..He said 'Be' and it was.

[khushnood]

this question always make me bored. why christian always reply and reply all over again, infact muslim had answer this question.

our prophet ISA Al MAsih is under ALLAH SWT protection. And ISA Al MAsih never been in crucified.

we believe virgin birth, but we dont believe in jesus.. Jesus is not ISA Al MAsih which is our prophet. He is somebody else !!



This is strange.I've never heard muslims say they dont believe in Jesus.Whats the point you're trying to make ?no muslim is a complete muslim until he believes in all the prophets of ALLAH. Your statement can mislead others.

[Anonymous.92]

^^^ Isa IS Jesus. Christians believe he was God and the son of God but muslims don't believe that. It doesn't make Jesus and Isa different people. Jesus in hebrew is translated into Isau. In arabic Isa.

[starfortress]

Peace to all Bro and Sis

We as a Muslim still beleive in Jesus/Isa (PBUH) until the crucifixion on him was occured.We never beleive the crucifixcion as it denied in this Verse:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Holy Quran 4:157

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Holy Quran 4:158

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
Holy Quran 4:159

:thankyou:

[Umar001]

Man it is so cool to jus imagine it, all of us are special in the sense taht we was created through a method of G-ds but boy JEsus peace be upon him, that musta been such a cool thing.

Man I so have to love Mary peace be upon her. She's so cool.

Peace

[Sarmad]

Jesus was the son of an angel called gabrielle not god.

[north_malaysian]

For me it's possible to accept the virgin birth because we can accept Adam who was born without parents and Eve was born without a mother.

[Woodrow]

Jesus was the son of an angel called gabrielle not god.

Not tryin to be sarcastic, but where did you hear that? I have heard many things, but this is the first time I ever heard that an Angel could be the father of anybody.

[Looking4Peace]

hehehe, his name is lucifer ;D ,

[north_malaysian]

hehehe, his name is lucifer ;D ,

yeah, that's right. People in Hell can say many ridiculous things.

[Sarmad]

Not tryin to be sarcastic, but where did you hear that? I have heard many things, but this is the first time I ever heard that an Angel could be the father of anybody.

Trust me I know I am quite familiar with angels mwahhahahahah ;D

But seriously you say that an angel cant be the father of someone but god can? no its simple angel gabrielle caused to be born jesus in mary, angels have powers and didn't the angel tell mary she would have a baby?.

[dianputri]

:sl:

what I mean by jesus is not god is :

1. muslims believe that ISA never been in crucified.
2. the person was in crucified is not ISA. as told in history, when the kafir chase him,,ALLAH took him to the sky and rescue him from kafir.
3. so,,,a person in crucified is not ISA.
but,,,christian believe ISA was in crucified.
then,,,christian may believe JEsus is ISA. but not for muslim....:)

we believe Isa is a prophet before MUhammad. but,,he,,never change into JEsus. Sorry,,,,,

thanks
piece
dianputri

[dianputri]

Jesus was the son of an angel called gabrielle not god.

seems like you wanna built another christian ordo,,,
piece,,,,:)

[north_malaysian]

:sl:

what I mean by jesus is not god is :

1. muslims believe that ISA never been in crucified.
2. the person was in crucified is not ISA. as told in history, when the kafir chase him,,ALLAH took him to the sky and rescue him from kafir.
3. so,,,a person in crucified is not ISA.
but,,,christian believe ISA was in crucified.
then,,,christian may believe JEsus is ISA. but not for muslim....:)

we believe Isa is a prophet before MUhammad. but,,he,,never change into JEsus. Sorry,,,,,

thanks
piece
dianputri

I could understand that many Muslims prefer to use 'ISA' in English language. Because they want to differ betwen Jesus the Prophet and Jesus the God. Hey, there are some Christian Arabs prefer not to use 'ISA' in Arabic.

But most of Muslims (I think) use Jesus in English and most of Christian Arabs used 'ISA' in Arabic.

[muzna]

just read lucifer's post,
jesus was not the son of gabrielle..i didnt know there was a belief like that...
logically speaking..if jesus had a father, how could it be a virgin birth?

[Sarmad]

just read lucifer's post,
jesus was not the son of gabrielle..i didnt know there was a belief like that...
logically speaking..if jesus had a father, how could it be a virgin birth?

Dont you get it?, for an immaculate virgin conception the father has to be able to give a child without actually conceiving like we humans do, therefore the angel used its supernatural powers to put a bun in the oven, you know it makes sense, jesus was created by an angel he was angelic:)

[dianputri]

Dont you get it?, for an immaculate virgin conception the father has to be able to give a child without actually conceiving like we humans do, therefore the angel used its supernatural powers to put a bun in the oven, you know it makes sense, jesus was created by an angel he was angelic:)

wow,,"the da vinci code" actor is here....

[north_malaysian]

wow,,"the da vinci code" actor is here....

That's why ... :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Dont you get it?, for an immaculate virgin conception the father has to be able to give a child without actually conceiving like we humans do, therefore the angel used its supernatural powers to put a bun in the oven, you know it makes sense, jesus was created by an angel he was angelic:)

What makes you think an angel can create anything? What religion belives an angel has the power of creation? Just because angel Gabriel told Mary (AS) that she would mother a child, does not mean that he caused her to have the baby. Sounds like he's passing on a message to me.
Don't ya think?

[Sarmad]

What makes you think an angel can create anything? What religion belives an angel has the power of creation? Just because angel Gabriel told Mary (AS) that she would mother a child, does not mean that he caused her to have the baby. Sounds like he's passing on a message to me.
Don't ya think?

even koran agrees with me have a looksie:

ANGELS THAT CAME TO MARYAM (as)

And when the angels said, 'Maryam, Allah has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women. Maryam, obey your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow.' This is news from the Unseen which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their reeds to see which of them would be the guardian of Maryam. You were not with them when they quarrelled. When the angels said, 'Maryam, your Lord gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, 'Isa, son of Maryam, of high esteem in this world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near. He will speak to people in the cradle, and also when fully grown, and will be one of the righteous,' she said, 'My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?' He said, 'It will be so.' Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, 'Be!' and it is. (Surah Al 'Imran, 42-47)

and then abracadabra.........

JIBRIL'S DESCENT TO MARYAM IN THE FORM
of a Handsome Man

And veiled herself from them. Then We sent Our Spirit to her and it took on for her the form of a handsome, well-built man. She said, 'I seek refuge from you with the All-Merciful if you guard against evil.' He said, 'I am only your Lord's messenger so that He can give you a pure boy.' (Surah Maryam, 17-19)



LUCIFER:skeleton:

[Sarmad]

Obviously for the "message" to be able to give maryam a boy would require the angel to descend as a man, and for that matter he was well-built and handsome. Otherwise why even send the angel in the form of a man? And how does a message from god cause the conception? Its simple the child is pure cos its from an angel thats the logical conclusion.

[ss25]

Isa (AS) is the son of no man or angel nor is he the son of God. Mariam (AS) did not conceive Isa (AS) through intercourse with anyone hence the "virgin birth"

[bint_muhammed]

Jesus was the son of an angel called gabrielle not god.

wow! thats a first! r u chritian!

[Sarmad]

no i am not a christian its just i dont accept anyones translation of texts other than my own and this is what i concluded

[Woodrow]

no i am not a christian its just i dont accept anyones translation of texts other than my own and this is what i concluded

Good point. I do that quite often myself. But in my case I can blame it on the senility of old age.

[Sarmad]

Good point. I do that quite often myself. But in my case I can blame it on the senility of old age.

well i sometimes talk to myself but i would not say i was senile:)

[Woodrow]

well i sometimes talk to myself but i would not say i was senile:)

that is only a problem is if when you talk to yourself, you turn your head and say "What did you say?"

[Sarmad]

that is only a problem is if when you talk to yourself, you turn your head and say "What did you say?"

have you been spying on me lol:giggling:

[Sarmad]

does islam "specifically" believe mary was a virgin?

[Abdul Fattah]

I don't know. This is what the Qur'an says. It doesn't comment on wheter mary was a virgin or not explicitly. But apart from christian claims, I see no reason to assume she was.

019.002
(This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.

019.003
Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,

019.004
Praying: "O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!

019.005
"Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself,-

019.006
YUSUFALI: "(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!"

019.007
(His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahya: on none by that name have We conferred distinction before."

019.008
He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"

019.009
He said: "So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"


A bit further in that same chapter:


019.016
Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

019.017
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

019.018
She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

019.019
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

019.020
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

019.021
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

019.022
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

[glo]

I don't know. This is what the Qur'an says. It doesn't comment on wheter mary was a virgin or not explicitly. But apart from christian claims, I see no reason to assume she was.

019.019
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

019.020
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

019.021
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

019.022
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

Is that highlighted sentence not a fairly clear indication that Mary is considered to have been a virgin?
How do you read it?

Peace.

[Abdul Fattah]

Well I'm no expert on interpreting the qur'an and I really don't know what's teh case here. But I would guess the "not unchast" referred to her period, and the "no man touching" refers to recently. She was married afterall.
Anyway, guessing is dangerous, so don't take my word for it, I'm just thinking out loud here.

[AvarAllahNoor]

We can speculate all we want, we won't know the truth until we end up meeting our maker :o)

[bint_muhammed]

even koran agrees with me have a looksie:

ANGELS THAT CAME TO MARYAM (as)

And when the angels said, 'Maryam, Allah has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women. Maryam, obey your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow.' This is news from the Unseen which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their reeds to see which of them would be the guardian of Maryam. You were not with them when they quarrelled. When the angels said, 'Maryam, your Lord gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, 'Isa, son of Maryam, of high esteem in this world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near. He will speak to people in the cradle, and also when fully grown, and will be one of the righteous,' she said, 'My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?' He said, 'It will be so.' Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, 'Be!' and it is. (Surah Al 'Imran, 42-47)

and then abracadabra.........

JIBRIL'S DESCENT TO MARYAM IN THE FORM
of a Handsome Man

And veiled herself from them. Then We sent Our Spirit to her and it took on for her the form of a handsome, well-built man. She said, 'I seek refuge from you with the All-Merciful if you guard against evil.' He said, 'I am only your Lord's messenger so that He can give you a pure boy.' (Surah Maryam, 17-19)



LUCIFER:skeleton:

the last senyence explains it
'i am only myour lords MESSANGER so that HE can GIVE YOU A PURE BOY':rollseyes

[Sarmad]

the last senyence explains it
'i am only myour lords MESSANGER so that HE can GIVE YOU A PURE BOY':rollseyes

yeah but obviously the "message" is not written or spoken but "supernatural" in the form of jesus:rollseyes

why else send the angel down like a well-built handsome man?

[AvarAllahNoor]

yeah but obviously the "message" is not written or spoken but "supernatural" in the form of jesus:rollseyes

why else send the angel down like a well-built handsome man?

To give the message?

How many Angels havee you seen?

[bint_muhammed]

Well I'm no expert on interpreting the qur'an and I really don't know what's teh case here. But I would guess the "not unchast" referred to her period, and the "no man touching" refers to recently. She was married afterall.
Anyway, guessing is dangerous, so don't take my word for it, I'm just thinking out loud here.

actually she wasnt married and she was a virgin because at that time she was a nun or something! i find more info!

[Sarmad]

To give the message?

How many Angels havee you seen?

i dont get what your askin i'm lucifer i chill with the angels on frequent basis:rollseyes

[Sarmad]

actually she wasnt married and she was a virgin because at that time she was a nun or something! i find more info!

i thought nuns were invented in europe?

[AvarAllahNoor]

i dont get what your askin i'm lucifer i chill with the angels on frequent basis:rollseyes

You reside at the Charan Kamal that to me would mean Heaven. And Lucifer is a fallen angel, i can't see him being in the same place. :giggling:

[jkr]

Jesus/Isa a.s is not a son of anyone except mary/Mariam ALONE.He has no father, he just has a mother ONLY.Jesus/Isa a.s is a human being just like u and me,he ate just like the rest of us,the difference he has with the rest of us is that Allah swt chose him to be HIS Messenger. Adam a.s has no father or mother and Eve/Hawa has no mother or father either.This is just proff that Allah is MOST POWERFUL and can do whatever He wills whenever He wills.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

even koran agrees with me have a looksie:

ANGELS THAT CAME TO MARYAM (as)

And when the angels said, 'Maryam, Allah has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women. Maryam, obey your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow.' This is news from the Unseen which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their reeds to see which of them would be the guardian of Maryam. You were not with them when they quarrelled. When the angels said, 'Maryam, your Lord gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, 'Isa, son of Maryam, of high esteem in this world and the hereafter, and one of those brought near. He will speak to people in the cradle, and also when fully grown, and will be one of the righteous,' she said, 'My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?' He said, 'It will be so.' Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, 'Be!' and it is. (Surah Al 'Imran, 42-47)

and then abracadabra.........

JIBRIL'S DESCENT TO MARYAM IN THE FORM
of a Handsome Man

And veiled herself from them. Then We sent Our Spirit to her and it took on for her the form of a handsome, well-built man. She said, 'I seek refuge from you with the All-Merciful if you guard against evil.' He said, 'I am only your Lord's messenger so that He can give you a pure boy.' (Surah Maryam, 17-19)



LUCIFER:skeleton:

So what bit says that he created anything or even caused anything to be?
By the We is Allah, and only Allah:). In arabic the 'royal we' is like a sign of respect.

[Sarmad]

So what bit says that he created anything or even caused anything to be?

'I am only your Lord's messenger so that He can give you a pure boy.' (Surah Maryam, 17-19)

using the postmaster analogy the messanger is posting the baby jesus from allah into mary this does not mean that intercourse was involved its just one of the many mesenger communicatory methods.:) like sms, telephone, email etc

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

So you are assuming that the message is Jesus (AS)? Perhaos it is just a normal verbal message?

[Sarmad]

So you are assuming that the message is Jesus (AS)? Perhaos it is just a normal verbal message?

perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't, but it would make more sense if it was'nt.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

No it wouldn't. Because you are interpretting the Qur'an even though you don't speak arabic, and you do not have a great undrestanding of Islam. And as far as I know, you aren't a prominent scholar. How about you interpret the way the prominent companions did? I've never herad mention of this before you said it, so i am assuming that you have come to this conclusion yourself. How about you interpret it the way everyone has until this point?

[Sarmad]

No it wouldn't. Because you are interpretting the Qur'an even though you don't speak arabic, and you do not have a great undrestanding of Islam. And as far as I know, you aren't a prominent scholar. How about you interpret the way the prominent companions did? I've never herad mention of this before you said it, so i am assuming that you have come to this conclusion yourself. How about you interpret it the way everyone has until this point?

so ok you tell me what they said and then i will give my opinion:)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well basically my argument lol.

[Sarmad]

Well basically my argument lol.

i need proof

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Can I ask you where you got that opinion from?
My proof is that what you are saying has no basis in Islam. Please tell me the scholar who told you that.

[Sarmad]

Can I ask you where you got that opinion from?
My proof is that what you are saying has no basis in Islam. Please tell me the scholar who told you that.

um no i dont think so:rollseyes

i have translated the koran and reached a conclusion the onus is upon yourslef to provide the evidence from you scholsrs i have already stated in a previous post that i dont believe in anyone elses translation so if you want to continue this discussion bring your claims and we will address them i will not be responding if you continue to derail the discussion by attacking my opion without offering any solution, christians believe he was the son of god now you have tell me what you have learned from koran.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

My proof is that you have no proof. I'm not attacking your opinion, i'm stating the facts. You have not studied classical arabic, or studied the science of tafseer, so you are in no position to make any crazy interpretations like that.

[Sarmad]

My proof is that you have no proof. I'm not attacking your opinion, i'm stating the facts. You have not studied classical arabic, or studied the science of tafseer, so you are in no position to make any crazy interpretations like that.

You only call it crazy cos no scholar has interpreted it that way, there are no inbetweens when it comes to god anyone can translate. Thanks:)

[Abdul Fattah]

actually she wasnt married and she was a virgin because at that time she was a nun or something! i find more info!

Oh I see what I did wrong, I mixed the two seperate stories of Yahya and Isa
(peace be upon them). I do have my doubts about the "nun" comment.

You only call it crazy cos no scholar has interpreted it that way, there are no inbetweens when it comes to god anyone can translate. Thanks

When you are ill you don't ask your tailer to diagnose you right? OF course, everybody is free to interpret, but that doesn't mean it's recomended to just interpretet in whatever way you want. And without knowledge of the context in which certain verses were revealed, and to what certain referances are made, an interpretation won't make a lot of sense.

[786rani]

Jesus was the son of an angel called gabrielle not god.

can u pleez extend on that.
rani

[j4763]

So who do the Muslim think is Jesus's dad? Joseph?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

You only call it crazy cos no scholar has interpreted it that way, there are no inbetweens when it comes to god anyone can translate. Thanks:)

No they can't:). In islam we have rules and regulations for these types of things. First of all the Qur'an is not in english, it is only in arabic. What you are reading - i assume - is the english translation of the meaning. Which doesn't come anywhere close to the real deal. And the tQur'an is not written in mondern day slang arabic, but classical arabic. To make tafseer of the Qur'an you have to be highly knowledgable in this field. That's all i'm trying to say. You can't spread things around if you aren't sure of them. And in Islam, it is kufr (disbelief) to believe that any other than Allah have the power of creation. That is an attribute of Allah, and only Allah.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

So who do the Muslim think is Jesus's dad? Joseph?

We believe that Jesus (AS) was born of a virgin birth, and has no father. Allah created him in a way similar to they way he created Adam (AS). And that is, without any sexual interaction.

[Joe98]

We believe that Jesus (AS) was born of a virgin birth, and has no father. Allah created him in a way similar to they way he created Adam (AS). And that is, without any sexual interaction.

Excellent!

Can you quote what it is that Christains believe on this subject?

[Muslim Knight]

Can you quote what it is that Christains believe on this subject?

Best obtained from Christians themselves.

[Ayesha Rana]

um no i dont think so:rollseyes

i have translated the koran and reached a conclusion the onus is upon yourslef to provide the evidence from you scholsrs i have already stated in a previous post that i dont believe in anyone elses translation so if you want to continue this discussion bring your claims and we will address them i will not be responding if you continue to derail the discussion by attacking my opion without offering any solution, christians believe he was the son of god now you have tell me what you have learned from koran.

What? You translated the Qur'an? Don't kid yourself pal. The tafsir-explanation of the Quranic Ayahs-was done by the companions of the prophets in his life time and their interpretation is nothing like what you said.
In Islam we go by the hadith and Qur'an and your opinion contradicts the meaning given by the best Islamic scholars including the prophet(saw).
The thing is pal. You aren't a muslim so if you don't believe Qur'an is true you have no right to slander over its meaning.

[Ayesha Rana]

You only call it crazy cos no scholar has interpreted it that way, there are no inbetweens when it comes to god anyone can translate. Thanks:)

No smarty:rollseyes . Only those with knowledge can transalate and you arn'et even a muslim so your understanding is waaaaay of the point.
Do you believe the Qur'an is the word of God?
If you do then you have to be a muslim and that would mean agreeing with the prophet (saw)'s meaning. Nothing like yours.
And if you aren't a muslim then you must believe that the Qur'an is the word of Muhammad(saw) and if that is the case then his transalation is what is correct cos he is the one that wrote it(so iether way that should be your opinion if you are sane enough to make it.)
Don't get me wrong i believe it's the word of Allah.

[j4763]

Excellent!

Can you quote what it is that Christains believe on this subject?

Wouldn't that be pretty much the same, i mean if i were to create something could i not be referred to as its father?

[DAWUD_adnan]

thats the Truth, remember how Allah created Adam? he had no father nor mother, then why is it for christians to belive this ?

[j4763]

thats the Truth, remember how Allah created Adam? he had no father nor mother, then why is it for christians to belive this ?

But then couldn't allah be referred to as adams father and mother in one? Maybe the christians interpreted it wrong and took it as literal meaning of the word “father”?

[Abdul Fattah]

But then couldn't allah be referred to as adams father and mother in one? Maybe the christians interpreted it wrong and took it as literal meaning of the word “father”?

Yes well the difrence is that a son-father relationship has hereditory factors wheer as a creator-creation relation doesn't necesairly. And that means there's something seriously worng with trinity.

[Sarmad]

No smarty:rollseyes . Only those with knowledge can transalate and you arn'et even a muslim so your understanding is waaaaay of the point.
Do you believe the Qur'an is the word of God?
If you do then you have to be a muslim and that would mean agreeing with the prophet (saw)'s meaning. Nothing like yours.
And if you aren't a muslim then you must believe that the Qur'an is the word of Muhammad(saw) and if that is the case then his transalation is what is correct cos he is the one that wrote it(so iether way that should be your opinion if you are sane enough to make it.)
Don't get me wrong i believe it's the word of Allah.

I am gonna say this once, I am reading it for MYSELF!!!!!!!, I am not interested whther it is the word of god or not i suggest you re-read my posts instead of your knee-jerk reaction I cant keep trying to correct your misunderstanding so I will let you figure out where your going wrong ie, I am not talking on behalf of islam I am giving you my opinion from what i read whether the companions reached that conclusion is irrelevant.

Have a nice day:thankyou:

[DAWUD_adnan]

i still cant undertand christian how can the belive thatthe bible is the word of God when it has been changed so many times?

ive read on an internet site that there are about 10.000 diffrences withthe first testament and the current bible , why keep making these changes?????

the Quran on th contrary was NEVER changed AND still continues to produce miracles like things which have been in the Quran 1427 years ago and are just now being found in modern sience

the Quran says ''Verily, the likeness of 'Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam'' this meaning that Isa was created in the same way as Adam the fact that Adam had no mother nor father should be enough but still Allah shows us another miracle if you look up the name ISA it is in the Qur'an 25 times, you lookup the name Adam it is there 25 times as well!!!!!!!

is this not enough for the chritsians????

[glo]

Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
We believe that Jesus (AS) was born of a virgin birth, and has no father. Allah created him in a way similar to they way he created Adam (AS). And that is, without any sexual interaction.

Excellent!

Can you quote what it is that Christains believe on this subject?

The Bible pretty much says the same thing.
Jesus was miraculously conceived inside Mary, who was a virgin at the time. That is the Biblical concept of the virgin birth, as I understand it.

"In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her."
(Luke 1:26-38)

[Joe98]

i still cant undertand christian how can the belive that the bible is the word of God

Christains do not believe it is the word of God.
Christains do not believe it is the word of God.

I say this so often on this forum I have repeated it just for you.

For example the gospbel of Mathew was written by..........(drum roll).....Mathew! It was not written by God!

For a test please complete the blanks:

The gospbel of Mark was written by________

The gospbel of Luke was written by________

I expect nothing less than 100%

[Joe98]

Can you quote what it is that Christains believe on this subject?

Best obtained from Christians themselves.

For me this is extremely irritating

Muslims have been told the Christain belief a number of times in this thread and many times in other threads.

You are not asked to believe. You are asked to understand the Christain belief.

If you cannot follow it perhaps some lessons in English grammar might be usefull!

[bint_muhammed]

For me this is extremely irritating

Muslims have been told the Christain belief a number of times in this thread and many times in other threads.

You are not asked to believe. You are asked to understand the Christain belief.

If you cannot follow it perhaps some lessons in English grammar might be usefull!

sounds similar to the muslims belief!:rollseyes

[Ayesha Rana]

I am gonna say this once, I am reading it for MYSELF!!!!!!!, I am not interested whther it is the word of god or not i suggest you re-read my posts instead of your knee-jerk reaction I cant keep trying to correct your misunderstanding so I will let you figure out where your going wrong ie, I am not talking on behalf of islam I am giving you my opinion from what i read whether the companions reached that conclusion is irrelevant.

Have a nice day:thankyou:

Precisely. You are reading from yourself. And I am saying that you can't claim that the companions never reached that conclusion so it gives you every right to. You see dear confused Bro/sis, you obviously don't have much knowledge of Islam. The Qur'an was not sent down to be interpreted however, it all has a specific meaning. It was revealed to the prophet so he knows that meaning and he taught it to his companions. There is only one meaning, the Qur'an is not a jumble of different peoples opinions.
:rollseyes

[Sarmad]

Precisely.

You say precisely but continue to make the same error there is not much discussion going on is their?

You are reading from yourself.

correct and whats your point this is a discussion forum not a forum to discuss only the conclusions reached by the companions just cos you restrict yourself does not mean I am going to, I am not a muslim so I will read the koran any damn way I please.

And I am saying that you can't claim that the companions never reached that conclusion so it gives you every right to.

every right to what exactly?

You see dear confused Bro/sis,

bro and not confused.

you obviously don't have much knowledge of Islam.

god gave me a brain to make my own conclusions thankyou very much.

The Qur'an was not sent down to be interpreted however, it all has a specific meaning.

oh really? do you know how many muslims will disagree with you on that you represent a majority sheep mentalitity point of view, if you go to muslim countries such as pakistan they will tell you they dont rely on anyone to dictate interpretation this is the reason why pakistan continues to hold its position of having a secular islamic republic, your view is one view but not the only one and we aint allowed to discuss sectarian issues so I will leave it their but in future dont tell me that i cannot interpret a verse in a certain way i am a free individual and i will do what i like, comprende?

It was revealed to the prophet so he knows that meaning and he taught it to his companions. There is only one meaning, the Qur'an is not a jumble of different peoples opinions.
:rollseyes

[/QUOTE]


their actually websites online which have refuted such positions, arabs made up these rules they were not a part of islam unless you look and learn for yourself you will continue to be under the sway of scholars who will force their will onto society the way they have done up until now, do you think their is nothing more that people can learn by themselves by reading the koran, the companions did not metion half the stuff about scientific miracles the way Dr Zakir Naik does he too has plucked these things by his own interpretation (or out of thin air) but no-one criticises that cos you like to be followers not leaders, well I won't follow I am my own leader and wont be dictated to.

Have a smashing day amigos:thankyou:

[Ayesha Rana]

The precisely was to the fact that you are reading it for yourself Bro and I apologise if i insulted you.
I was trying to explain that there should not be different interpretations of the Qur'an and just cos people do so doesn't make it right. The explanation the prophet gave us is the truth cos it was revealed to him so obviously if anyone knows the meaning it is him.
And just incase you are interested the angel Jibraeel blew into Maryam (as) sleeve.

Hey and bro what religion are you it would make things alot easier. You believe in God and it seems that you think the Qur'an is the word of God,

god gave me a brain to make my own conclusions thankyou very much.

but you seem to reject the sayings of the prophet.
I may not be right but it would make things alot easier.

[PrIM3]

this question always make me bored. why christian always reply and reply all over again, infact muslim had answer this question.

we believe virgin birth, but we dont believe in jesus.. Jesus is not ISA Al MAsih which is our prophet. He is somebody else !!!

our prophet ISA Al MAsih is under ALLAH SWT protection. And ISA Al MAsih never been in crucified.

tell me where does it say in the Quran that He was never crucified?
sorry off topic question

[- Qatada -]

tell me where does it say in the Quran that He was never crucified?
sorry off topic question

Hey.


You can create a new thread if you want.


However, heres the proof insha'Allaah:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- [Qur'an 4:157]

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- [4:158]

more info.
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp


Peace.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Can I just ask everyone to calm down. This isn't something that needs to be fought over. Sarmad isn't a scholar, so I doubt his opinions will cause much fitnah. Ukhti Ayesha, let him interpret it that way. He isn't harming anyone else. However Sarmad, what I am trying to say is that in Islam we believe that only Allah has the power to create any being. That is all. We do not believe that angels could even create a fly if they all came together. If you insist on holding your opinion, then that's fine with me. It isn't affecting me in any way.
-W'salaam and Peace

[glo]

Muslims have been told the Christain belief a number of times in this thread and many times in other threads.

You are not asked to believe.
You are asked to understand the Christian belief.

Hi Joe

That's a very interesting comment.

I find that many Muslim members here are really not interested in understanding Christianity. Questions are often intended to criticise or attack, rather than seek information.

It's an attitude I really cannot come to grips with.
If I ask a question here, it's usually to learn about somebode else's beliefs or views. That doesn't mean I end up agreeing with them - but at least I understand where they are coming from.

Having said all this, this is a Muslims forum, so we should not be surprised that some members here have no intention to learn about or try to understand other beliefs. :rollseyes

Peace.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well, that could be because they are happy with their faith. You have to understand that some people aren't really interested in learning about other people's faiths. I however, am. R.E was one of my favourite subjects at school, and I still love learning about other people's faithsin great detail. Especially the other 'Abrahamic' religions.
Do you agree with Joe's statement that the Bible isn't the word of God?
-Peace

[Umar001]

I find that many Muslim members here are really not interested in understanding Christianity. Questions are often intended to criticise or attack, rather than seek information.

Yea for real, I don't get that too, because I mean the main purpose of a Muslim and a Christian is basically Worship G-d you know, to get closer to Him and so on, and I mean random attacks and so on doesnt help anyone, only tends to lead to a division through which people are driven away from interfaith dialogue, which is an upsetting thing to see.

I also do think it is very hard to see whether a person is being mean and jus attacking or whether they are jus genuinly disagreein and asking, like me lol, when I talk to people online, I have had people say they feel as though I was attackin their faith, but that was not my intent at all, I was jus askin about points I didnt understand their view on.

SO EVERYONE, IF I EVER SEEM TO BE ATTACKING ANYONE TELL ME SO I KNOW AND WILL TRY AND NOT SEEM AS fORWARD OR AGRESSIVE, FOR THAT AINT MY INTENTION.

But I think it should be cut out straight, though it is a fine line between respectively disagreein and attack, well online it is when it may be hard to tell peoples emotion and so on.

Having said all this, this is a Muslims forum, so we should not be surprised that some members here have no intention to learn about or try to understand other beliefs. :rollseyes

Now I really don't get this, I hope and I think im reading it wrong, it seems like, its more or less stating that because its a Muslim place your bound to find people like that?

I so think Im reading it wrong, please correct me glo.


Peace people :thankyou:

[glo]

Now I really don't get this, I hope and I think im reading it wrong, it seems like, its more or less stating that because its a Muslim place your bound to find people like that?

I so think Im reading it wrong, please correct me glo.
Peace people :thankyou:

Hi IsaAbdullah

I'm not sure what you think I am trying to say.
I mean no offence or criticism, whatsoever.

I think Umm Shaheed has put into words, what I meant to say:

You have to understand that some people aren't really interested in learning about other people's faiths.

Muslims in Muslim forums may not be interested in other faiths. That's all.

Peace.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Some may not, but there are some like me that would :).
-Peace

[bint_muhammed]

Yea for real, I don't get that too, because I mean the main purpose of a Muslim and a Christian is basically Worship G-d you know, to get closer to Him and so on, and I mean random attacks and so on doesnt help anyone, only tends to lead to a division through which people are driven away from interfaith dialogue, which is an upsetting thing to see.

I also do think it is very hard to see whether a person is being mean and jus attacking or whether they are jus genuinly disagreein and asking, like me lol, when I talk to people online, I have had people say they feel as though I was attackin their faith, but that was not my intent at all, I was jus askin about points I didnt understand their view on.

SO EVERYONE, IF I EVER SEEM TO BE ATTACKING ANYONE TELL ME SO I KNOW AND WILL TRY AND NOT SEEM AS fORWARD OR AGRESSIVE, FOR THAT AINT MY INTENTION.

But I think it should be cut out straight, though it is a fine line between respectively disagreein and attack, well online it is when it may be hard to tell peoples emotion and so on.




Now I really don't get this, I hope and I think im reading it wrong, it seems like, its more or less stating that because its a Muslim place your bound to find people like that?

I so think Im reading it wrong, please correct me glo.


Peace people :thankyou:

oky if thats the case, lets cum up with some rules, so no1 gets offended rite!

[Umar001]

Glo I think I jus got the wrong end of the stick the way I read it seemed something else, dont worry bout it :p

Erm, sis Giney
I think the rules are simple, I mean what I am talkin about is, for example, I may type something in a manner which I see as respectful, but when someone reads it on the other side of their pc, they neither know the manner I inteded and can only guess, and they dont know the tone in which I would speak if I were there so they would have to guess, so it is easy to misinterpret someone's disagrement with someones attack.


There are obvious attacks, such as when someone said 'Buy Bull' or something thats jus straight out red card for them. But sometimes people say, The Quran has a mistake or The Bible has a mistake, some may see it as an attack and some as a pure statement of disagreement, and the original poster should clarify that he or she is not attacking, but just statin their opinion, it should be done as Eric says , In the spirit of seeking truth, or something, it lightens up the mood and would surely get each other thinking more.

Anyhow thats my view hope I aint offended noone lol

[Skillganon]

Here:

The Story of Mary and the Birth of Jesus

The Story of Jesus, Son of Mary

In Defense of Mary the Virgin

[bint_muhammed]

Glo I think I jus got the wrong end of the stick the way I read it seemed something else, dont worry bout it :p

Erm, sis Giney
I think the rules are simple, I mean what I am talkin about is, for example, I may type something in a manner which I see as respectful, but when someone reads it on the other side of their pc, they neither know the manner I inteded and can only guess, and they dont know the tone in which I would speak if I were there so they would have to guess, so it is easy to misinterpret someone's disagrement with someones attack.


There are obvious attacks, such as when someone said 'Buy Bull' or something thats jus straight out red card for them. But sometimes people say, The Quran has a mistake or The Bible has a mistake, some may see it as an attack and some as a pure statement of disagreement, and the original poster should clarify that he or she is not attacking, but just statin their opinion, it should be done as Eric says , In the spirit of seeking truth, or something, it lightens up the mood and would surely get each other thinking more.

Anyhow thats my view hope I aint offended noone lol

okay! slamz!