Non-Muslims and Muslim Religious Rules

[KAding]

Hello, I asked this in the World Affairs forum and got no answer, so I figured to comparative religion forum would be more suitable:

Is there someone who can answer this question? I am a bit confused

I am always a bit confused on this. Is an Islamic State supposed to enforce Islamic law? Someone here said many of these haram activities are simply 'not recommended'. In an Islamic state who would decide which haram things would actually be outlawed?

And if these things are outlawed, when does it also apply to non-Muslims? I mean, in an Islamic state it would also be a crime for non-Muslims to have, say, pictures of the Prophet? Who decides which Muslim rules also have to be followed by non-Muslims?

So in essence: Muslims seem to favour seperated legal systems for the different communities, but how far would this seperation go in an Islam state?

Thanks :).

[Immunity]

Muslims seem to favour seperated legal systems for the different communities, but how far would this seperation go in an Islam state?

The communities in which Muslims want seperate laws are secular.

Shariah law prevails in an Islamic state.

See the difference.

If Jews or Christians want seperate religious laws under an Islamic state, I would say "fine, go ahead." This is, of course, assuming that seperate laws are not as crazy as allowing Sati and human sacrifices :)

[Tania]

"Islamic Law is very different from English Common Law or the European Civil Law traditions. Muslims are bound to the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed whose translation of Allah or God's will is found in the Quran. Muslims are held accountable to the Sharia Law, but non-Muslims are not bound by the same standard (apostasy from Allah). Muslims and non-Muslims are both required to live by laws enacted by the various forms of government such as tax laws, traffic laws, white collar crimes of business, and theft. These and many other crimes similar to Common Law crimes are tried in modern "Mazalim Courts." The Mazalim Courts can also hear civil law, family law and all other cases. Islamic Law does have separate courts for Muslims for "religious crimes" and contemporary non-religious courts for other criminal and civil matters. "
from the article:http://ireland.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/law.htm

[north_malaysian]

I dont know about other countries. But in Malaysia:

1) We have been colonized by British for more than 200 years. British developed our law system using Common Laws.

2) Malaysia achieved independent without violent - why? British had sorted out that person who rules the country must be pro-British.

3) Malaysian Federal Constitution was made by Lord Reid Commission. The only 'Islamic' thing about our Constitution is that Islam is the official religion.

4) Islam Official Religion - as for the Head of State religion and official ceremonies ha Islamic prayer in it. Just that.

5) 1980s - Tun Mahathir (ex Prime Minister) introduced many things so-called 'Islamic' like Islamic financial, seperating Shariah Court from Civil Court. But against PAS (Pan Malaysian Islamic Party) pure Islamic law implementation. At the end of his premiership, Tun Mahathir declared Malaysia as an Islamic state. PAS refused to recognized.

6) Dato Seri Abdullah Badawi (current PM) further declared Malaysia as an Islamic country under the concept of "ISlam Hadhari" (Civilizational Islam). PAS rejected it because it's like rebranding Islam or creating a new mazhab (sect). 90% of Malaysian Muslims dont understand what is "Islam Hadhari" (including me).

Our Shariah court deal with personal matters (divorce, family laws etc) and some morality matter such as (drinking alcohol, apostacy, adultery) - but the punishment is not in accordance to Koran and Hadith.

For example, if a person convicted of adultery - he would only be fined for some thousands of ringgit only.

Shariah Court - ONLY applicable for Muslims in Malaysia.

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[syilla]

kading...

list us all the haram activities...

in previous thread...they (the non-muslim) said watching tv and playing chess is haram.

Is not.

Then maybe it is easier to answer....

[KAding]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I am still somewhat confused though. Firstly, to what extend is an Islamic government supposed to outlaw things that are considered haram? It appears lots of music is Haram for example and so is eating pork obviously. Is it simply tradition that Islamic governments make haram things outlawed or is this part of Islamic doctrine? I mean, to what extend in Islam is God supposed to do the judging and to what extend is the state supposed to do it in his name?

Secondly, on non-Muslims. I read they have seperate courts for family law and religious law? So a ban on, say, some Music would not apply on other religious groups? They could keep eating pork and commit usury?

Thanks :)

[KAding]

kading...

list us all the haram activities...

in previous thread...they (the non-muslim) said watching tv and playing chess is haram.

Is not.

Then maybe it is easier to answer....

All haram activities? :thankyou:. I don't know obviously.

But I was thinking of stuff like usury, eating pork, playing music, images of the Prophet, drinking alcohol. I understand though that there are strong differences of opinion within the Muslim community when something is haram.

[north_malaysian]

All haram activities? :thankyou:. I don't know obviously.

But I was thinking of stuff like usury, eating pork, playing music, images of the Prophet, drinking alcohol. I understand though that there are strong differences of opinion within the Muslim community when something is haram.

Under Malaysian Islamic Law, for Muslims:

1) Usury - not an offence
2) Eating Pork - not an offence (never heard of any law saying this)
3) Playing music - not an offence
4) Images of the Prophet - offence
5) Drinking alcohol - offence

[glo]

kading...

list us all the haram activities...

in previous thread...they (the non-muslim) said watching tv and playing chess is haram.
Is not.

Then maybe it is easier to answer....

Hi syilla

Not wanting to distract from the thread topic, but in this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/halal-fu...ighlight=chess it is Muslims, not non-Muslims, who argue that chess is haram.


peace.

[glo]

Under Malaysian Islamic Law, for Muslims:

1) Usury - not an offence
2) Eating Pork - not an offence (never heard of any law saying this)
3) Playing music - not an offence
4) Images of the Prophet - offence
5) Drinking alcohol - offence

That's interesting.

I understand one of KAding's questions was, how this would affect non-Muslims.
Would Christians living in Malaysia be allowed to have images of the Prophet? Or drink alcohol?
What about in privacy within their own homes?

I guess the difference is that Muslims would not do these things anyway, because of the laws of their religion.
Non-Muslims are not bound by these Islamic laws.
But does state law demand that they obey these laws anyway?

(I'm not sure I'm making this any clearer!) :? :hiding:

Peace.:thankyou:

[north_malaysian]

That's interesting.

I understand one of KAding's questions was, how this would affect non-Muslims.
Would Christians living in Malaysia be allowed to have images of the Prophet? Or drink alcohol?
What about in privacy within their own homes?

I guess the difference is that Muslims would not do these things anyway, because of the laws of their religion.
Non-Muslims are not bound by these Islamic laws.
But does state law demand that they obey these laws anyway?

(I'm not sure I'm making this any clearer!) :? :hiding:

Peace.:thankyou:

In Malaysia

Christians can have all the alcoholic drinks they want. In fact we have big Carlsberg factory for local consumption. There are hundred of bars and all big hotels serve alcohol. In Malaysia, alcohol cant be sold to Muslims and under 18.

There are numerous bookstores selling christian books which potrays pictures of prophets. Figures of Jesus anything - is ok for Non Muslims.

Christians have privacy in their own home, in fact in Penang there is a big procession for St. Anne's festival. The portuguese community in Malacca also have a procession on Sao Pedro Feast.

Shariah Court in Malaysia only bound to Muslims. The only matter which Non Muslims can be involved is when thay want to denounce Islam. Like Jews in Israel, Muslims in Malaysia who want to denounce Islam have to do it in before a Shariah Court Judge (in Israel Rabbinical Court, if I'm not mistaken). 250,000 ex-Muslims have done this process and be declared Hindus, Christians, Buddhists etc. But the main obstacle for them actually come from society and family.

[syilla]

Hi syilla

Not wanting to distract from the thread topic, but in this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/halal-fu...ighlight=chess it is Muslims, not non-Muslims, who argue that chess is haram.


peace.

in our local websites that hadith that says chess haram is false hadith.

I don't think i can translate it to you.

[north_malaysian]

in our local websites that hadith that says chess haram is false hadith.

I don't think i can translate it to you.

there is a hadith forbiding chess?:rollseyes

[syilla]

yeah there is, unfortunately.

[syilla]

But as you can see...here is the famous muslims players in chess

Famous players

During the reign of the Arabic caliphs, shatranj players of highest class were called aliyat or grandees. There were only a very few players in this category. The most well known of them were:

* Jabir al-Kufi, Rabrab and Abun-Naam were three aliyat players during the rule of caliph al-Ma'mun.
* Al-Adli was the strongest player during the rule of caliph al-Wathiq. At this time he was the only player in aliyat category.
* Ar-Razi in 847 won a match against an already old al-Adli in the presence of caliph al-Mutawakkil and so become a player of aliyat category.
* As-Suli was the strongest player during the reign of caliph al-Muktafi. Al-Razi was already dead and there were no players of comparable strength before as-Suli appeared on the scene. In the presence of al-Muktafi he easily won a match against a certain al-Mawardi and thus proved that he was the best player of that time. As-Suli considered Rabrab and ar-Razi as the greatest of his predecessors.
* Al-Lajlaj was a pupil of as-Suli and also a great shatranj master of his time.

You can read more about halal haram in this book Kitab al-halal wal Haram fi Islam.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

kading...

list us all the haram activities...

in previous thread...they (the non-muslim) said watching tv and playing chess is haram.

Is not.

Then maybe it is easier to answer....

Don't know about T.V, but I read a hadith that chess and backgammon is haraam.

[north_malaysian]

Don't know about T.V, but I read a hadith that chess and backgammon is haraam.

whaT Hadith is it?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Sorry i don't ahve a refernce to it.

[syilla]

According to Dr Yusof al-Qaradhawi, chess is allowed if you're don't get carried away. According to him also, he said that hadith that mentioned chess is haram is false hadith.

Please refer to Kitab al-halal wal Haram fi Islam.

and some also says that

hadith that mentioned chess is haram is hadith maudhu.

But i'm not sure for which type of chess. Is it the European chess or the Arab style chess.

Whatever it is, chess was originated from Parsi. The European called it 'Check' which is referring to the 'Shah' (King). And for 'CheckMate' is referring to 'Shat Mat' (Shah is dead)

Wallahualam.

*But please no thread for chess please hehe...this is just for our knowledge.

[north_malaysian]

According to Dr Yusof al-Qaradhawi, chess is allowed if you're don't get carried away. According to him also, he said that hadith that mentioned chess is haram is false hadith.

Please refer to Kitab al-halal wal Haram fi Islam.

and some also says that

hadith that mentioned chess is haram is hadith maudhu.

But i'm not sure for which type of chess. Is it the European chess or the Arab style chess.

Whatever it is, chess was originated from Parsi. The European called it 'Check' which is referring to the 'Shah' (King). And for 'CheckMate' is referring to 'Shat Mat' (Shah is dead)

Wallahualam.

*But please no thread for chess please hehe...this is just for our knowledge.

There are European and Arab style chess? What's the difference. I knew the Chinese one.

[syilla]

i don't really know what's the difference...but the european style has cross on the 'king'

source : http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Chess.htm

Shatranj
The first reference to Shatranj occurs in a Persian book written around 600 AD which says that a Hind ambassador came to Persia from India during the reign of Naushirawan (Chosroes I, 531 - 579 AD) and presented the game to him as one of several gifts with a challenge to learn its secrets. By 650 AD, the game had reached the Arab kingdoms and had also reached the Byzantine Court by virtue of the fact that the grandson of Chosroes I married the daughter of the Byzantine Emperor Maurice. Its also reached Greece, Mecca and Medina around the same time.

There are three versions of the story of arrival of Shatranj in Europe.

One says that the Saracens brought it into Spain when they settled in Analusia following their conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. From there the game may have travelled eventually to France and the court of Charlemagne around 760 AD.

A second claims that Charlemagne and the Empress Irene of the Byzantine court at one point were contemplating marriage. During their meetings one of the presents exchanged was a Shatranj set given to Charlemagne. Unfortunately, instead of two Prime Ministers, the set contained two Queens with enhanced powers, making them the most powerful pieces on the board. Charlemagne thought this was not a promising sign and decided that the marriage wasn't such a good idea after all!

The most popular theory, however, is that the Knights of the Cross obtained the game from Arab lands during the Crusades. It is known that Shatranj was held in some esteem at the court of Saladin, who created the Ayubite dynasty in Egypt and Syria and the Christians certainly obtained medical secrets from physicians in this dynasty.

The famous Alfonso manuscript and the Cotton manuscript of the thirteenth century describe Shatranj in its form at the time. The pieces are shown on a non-chequered board in a virtually identical pattern to that of today. One of the prime ministers is now a King. The details follow:

King (Shah) - moved like a King in Chess
Prime Minister (Firz) - moved one square diagonally only.
Elephant (Fil) - moved two squares diagonally only but could jump over intervening pieces.
War Horse (Faras) - moved like a Knight in Chess
Ruhk - moved like a Rook in Chess
Pawn - moved like a pawn in Chess and when a pawn reached the far side of the board it was promoted to a Prime Minister
Over the next four centuries, the game stayed in much the same form as above - the European form of medieval Chess described in Caxton's 'The Game and Playe of Chesse' wasn't much different to the Persian form that the Crusaders probably discovered. As time progressed a variety of exotic variations came about in forms such as Circular Chess and The Courier Game which was a kind of extended Chess played on a board of 12 x 8 chequered squares. At about the same time that Shatranj entered Europe, it was also heading Eastwards back through North India and into Burma, China and Japan. The games Sittuyin (Burmese Chess), Mak-ruk (Siamese Chess), Shiang K'i (Chinese Chess), Korean Chess and Sho-gi (Japanese Chess or The General's Game) are the resultant modern forms; Chinese and Japanese Chess join Modern European Chess as being the primary modern day forms of Shatranj.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

isnt talking about chess going off topic?

[KAding]

:sl:

isnt talking about chess going off topic?

Probably yes, but it is still interesting :). Thanks everyone for the answers so far.

Unfortunately I still don't know if an Islamic state (not Muslim state) is supposed to outlaw all things Haram. And when this would also apply to non-Muslims :(.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I don't know about that. I've never really heard it come up before. Could a more knowledgable member clarify that for us? Possibley one of the super mods or admins?

[Malaikah]

i do know a bit, not a lot. i know they are allowed to do stuff that muslims arent allowed to do in the privacy of their homes but not in public... thats about all i know.