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yoke
06-11-2006, 03:48 PM
I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?
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chacha_jalebi
06-11-2006, 03:55 PM
NO

lets have a debate :D
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x Maz x
06-11-2006, 03:58 PM
No they are just the minoritywhom resort to violence and threats, they dont speak for Islam...Look at Naik now das one hevi debata mashAllah or alternatively have a debate with Ansar Al'-Adal lol...best Li refuter muhahahahaha Peace x
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Syed Nizam
06-11-2006, 03:59 PM
No....

Some of us just simply dont have the luxury of time for such a debate....
[PIE]There are other matters which are more important than that[/PIE]
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?
i agree with you and as a muslim this is quite embarassing. we just have to understand one another. they resort to such violence because for years us muslims (in specific countries) have been oppressed by other faiths and political heads. years of agrivation causes the ones who are sick of it to lash out. they werent like this four/five years ago. they just kept quite. and the others know which bone to pick. i mean, those pics of prophet muhammed (saw)were released in japan ages b4 denmark and noone cared coz noone is oppressed in japan...

if islam was the leading power and kept oppressing denmark and then went and released cartoons of christ im sure the same thing wud happen.
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Syed Nizam
06-11-2006, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by x Maz x
No they are just the minoritywhom resort to violence and threats, they dont speak for Islam...Look at Naik now das one hevi debata mashAllah or alternatively have a debate with Ansar Al'-Adal lol...best Li refuter muhahahahaha Peace x
Agreed! [BANANA]Go bro Ansar...;D[/BANANA]
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x Maz x
06-11-2006, 04:02 PM
Let meh make this simple, No we are not afraid :)


lol Yeh Big up Ansar muhahahaha lol

Peace x
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 04:06 PM
were not affraid coz the Quran has all the answers we need.:)
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 04:12 PM
yoke...mate...are you following us?:)
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Syed Nizam
06-11-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?
U have quoted it right on the t.v kind of things! That's the problem with the mainstream media. They very quick and efficient in pointing out Islam in a very negative ways. There are peaceful protests but more often than not, they are just simply ignored by these main stream media. Any coverage that portrays Islam as being equal to terrorisms, violence, intolerence etc. will be given TOP priority in their reporting.

Anyway, the whole episode of the danish cartoon stuff are done in a very bad taste! Nobody have the rights to insults, ridicule and make a mockery of anything just for the sake of democracy and free speech! It is actually an insults to democracy and free speech if it is used to justify to insults other people faith in sheer arrogance!
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czgibson
06-11-2006, 04:20 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by sumeyye
i mean, those pics of prophet muhammed (saw)were released in japan ages b4 denmark and noone cared coz noone is oppressed in japan...
Not true. They were first published in Denmark in September 2005, but the furore didn't receive international attention until early 2006, after some Imams took it upon themselves to tour the Middle East promoting action against them.

Regarding the topic of this thread: I think it is certainly the case that some Muslims prefer not to debate. Many don't see it as being important (even though it provides an opportunity to call others to Islam), and some simply don't have the intellectual firepower to handle it. However, there's a flipside to this, which is that Muslims are only supposed to discuss the finer points of their theology if they are what is called "knowledgable". This discourages a lot of Muslims from debating, and they defer to more knowledgable Muslims to do the job for them. Unfortunately this means that the Muslim knowledge base tends to be held by only a few members of society.

Some Muslims take offence at any questioning of their faith and resort to threats of violence. These are the kinds of people who protested so violently in London about the Danish cartoons. Fortunately that particular breed of Muslim is not strongly represented here on the forum, and threats of violence tend to be met with disciplinary action by the mods.

Of the debaters mentioned so far: in my view Ansar Al-'Adl is the best debater here on the forum - he conducts himself with respect and uses logic and scientific knowledge very well. Other prominent debaters on the forum are Muhammad, Fi Sabililah and Ahmed.

I think Ansar does a much better job than Dr. Zakir Naik, who is revered by many members here. Superficially, Naik puts on a good show: his recall of Biblical and Qur'anic verses is phenomenal. However, his arguments do not stand up to logical scrutiny, and generally rely on the authority of the texts he promotes. Therefore, he is convincing to someone who already agrees with him, but not to anyone else.

So, to conclude: there are Muslims who are keen to debate, but you need to look quite hard to find someone prepared to do it in what non-Muslims would consider to be a rational and intellectually honest way.

Peace
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 04:20 PM
good points made but i dnt think the yoke dude is around...:)

me sleepy...:uhwhat good nite everyone.have fun debating about muslims debating.:)
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Not true. They were first published in Denmark in September 2005, but the furore didn't receive international attention until early 2006, after some Imams took it upon themselves to tour the Middle East promoting action against them.
are u sure? hey!!! i was about to go to bed...and still am coz where i cum from its 2:22am...so it doesnt matter if ur sure im sorry....but im pretty sure it was released in japan first...maybe u cud ask around the forum???

good nite:)
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HeiGou
06-11-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
i agree with you and as a muslim this is quite embarassing. we just have to understand one another. they resort to such violence because for years us muslims (in specific countries) have been oppressed by other faiths and political heads. years of agrivation causes the ones who are sick of it to lash out. they werent like this four/five years ago. they just kept quite. and the others know which bone to pick. i mean, those pics of prophet muhammed (saw)were released in japan ages b4 denmark and noone cared coz noone is oppressed in japan...

if islam was the leading power and kept oppressing denmark and then went and released cartoons of christ im sure the same thing wud happen.
For years? Where? You mean in Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Egypt? Colonialism was a long time ago and did not touch some Muslim countries - those with the most radical and violent terrorist groups for instance. Nor did most European powers rule with anything other than respect for Islam.

I agree they were not like this four or five years ago, or rather smaller numbers of them were. What do you think has changed? Let me suggest that Muslims are getting richer and stronger.

No one reads the Japanese papers more like. They were also punlished in Egypt months before the fuss. People might be oppressed in Egypt but it did not cause any fuss. I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.
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Sarmad
06-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Its not that their scared of debate its just they get carried away with recalling what scholars have said, muslims need to take time out away from mosques and parents and learn Islam for themselves, its not enuff to come on the forum and agree with the person who writes the most, quality not quantity people:)
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sevgi
06-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
For years? Where? You mean in Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Egypt? Colonialism was a long time ago and did not touch some Muslim countries - those with the most radical and violent terrorist groups for instance. Nor did most European powers rule with anything other than respect for Islam.

I agree they were not like this four or five years ago, or rather smaller numbers of them were. What do you think has changed? Let me suggest that Muslims are getting richer and stronger.

No one reads the Japanese papers more like. They were also punlished in Egypt months before the fuss. People might be oppressed in Egypt but it did not cause any fuss. I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.
ur bak to haunt me arent u...in my dreams....im sleeping now. and turkey isnt recognised as a muslim country...look up encylos...i'll just say that im talking about oil stealing and putting iran and iraq against eachother and iranis against iranis, and bringing muslimsd in france to the level of rioting due to no employment of muslims.but some ppl are jsut blind to the truth coz "why wud anione wana do that?" right?

you have five mins to reply coz im going to bed...thats if u wish to write bak...
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yoke
06-11-2006, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I have a lot of reasons why i do not believe in Islam if anybody would like to debate these that would be interesting for me.
If not that's fine as well it was good to read the honest answers that you all posted.
So if anyone would like a debate let me know or where to go on the website to start one.
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yoke
06-11-2006, 06:48 PM
I will give a topic i would like to debate

Why Islam is false

anyone up for it?
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Rabi'ya
06-11-2006, 07:18 PM
Thread moved

wa'alaikumasalaam

Rabi'ya:rose:
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Bittersteel
06-11-2006, 07:23 PM
Yoke honey stay here,learn islam from the beginning and then criticse it.No one is telling you not to criticise.
go here:
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted

and as far as I know that Danish cartoon wasn't a debate it was a cartoon.
My reaction after I saw it:I did nothing.really.
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mas
06-11-2006, 08:42 PM
bring it on...
we anit afraid.................................
peace
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Immunity
06-11-2006, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Why Islam is false
Lets debate why Chistianity is false first :)

Thats my speciality.
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Immunity
06-11-2006, 08:50 PM
What is yoke anyway? If he/she us atheist, then there's no need to take him/her seriously.
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mas
06-11-2006, 08:56 PM
how do u know islam is false.
u should ask more serious question
i mean wat gave u the idea to say islam is false just because u found some websites that doesnt mean its wright,, werid,
waittin for ur q's
peace.
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glo
06-11-2006, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by NJUSA
I went to that site, and all I felt was sympathy. My dad stopped practicing Islam because of the same concerns brought up on the site, and I've been trying to bring him around to the idea that Islam doesn't have to be racist, misogynist, and tribalistic. (pray for me, people, my dad's a tough nut.)
Hi NJUSA

Can I just say, sister, that you are a shining light for Islam?! :thankyou: :statisfie

In this forum I see you speak out against injustice and hatred all the time - even at the risk of calling angry comments of others upon yourself.
Whilst acknowledging problems and differences, you are at the same time praying that your father will see the beauty of your religion.
Your path must be rocky, and I am sure you have a special calling to be the way you are!

May God's blessing always be with you! :thankyou:
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Immunity
06-11-2006, 08:57 PM
www.answering-christianity.org

No mercy for false faith.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-11-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
www.answering-christianity.org

No mercy for false faith.
You on a personal crusade or something?
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czgibson
06-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Immunity
What is yoke anyway? If he/she us atheist, then there's no need to take him/her seriously.
Don't you take atheists seriously?

Peace
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Immunity
06-11-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Don't you take atheists seriously?
No.
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czgibson
06-11-2006, 10:14 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Immunity
No.
Interesting. Why's that then?

And what faith are you yourself, out of interest?

Peace
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czgibson
06-11-2006, 10:41 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by sumeyye
are u sure? hey!!! i was about to go to bed...and still am coz where i cum from its 2:22am...so it doesnt matter if ur sure im sorry....but im pretty sure it was released in japan first...maybe u cud ask around the forum???
See here for the story of how it all happened.

Peace
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by Immunity
www.answering-christianity.org

No mercy for false faith.
No truth either it seems.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
06-12-2006, 10:37 AM
Islam should not be judged by Muslims. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not.
W'salaam
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Islam should not be judged by Muslims. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not.
Let's run through that, Christianity should not be judged by Christians, America should not be judged by Americans (especially Bush), atheism should not be judged by atheists. Where are we going to stop?

But the other point is, why not? That Muslims do not display the full range of Islamic behaviour I can accept. But they display some. They must. Their cultures are shaped by Islam in a way that they are not by, for instance, Judaism. Muslims are half-formed imperfect versions of what they ought to be. And I look at the Muslim world with its poverty, corruption, intolerance and violence and I am glad I do not live there. You talk about Islam being perfect but I doubt I will ever see it. I doubt, short of the Second Coming, anyone will. So what is on offer is what the West has or what the Muslim world has. I am happy for Egypt to remain Egyptian if that is what the Egyptians want. Same for Pakistan, Iran, Morocco, Indonesia or anywhere else. But I think one Pakistan is enough. I do not want to see another in Britain, or even in Bradford.

So you offer me the chance to embrace Islam, but what you really mean is that I should become a Muslim. Can you see why I would find that less than appealling?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
06-12-2006, 10:53 AM
America is a country, Islam is a way of life. I agree that Christianity should not be judged by christians, rather by its teachings.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in the rest of your post... please elaborate.
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
America is a country, Islam is a way of life. I agree that Christianity should not be judged by christians, rather by its teachings.
Well let's keep that in mind the next time the Crusades come up.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the rest of your post... please elaborate.
I see you all talking about "Islam" as if it exists when clearly it is more of a theoretical construct. You assert Islam is perfect, but also that it has not existed for the last 1400 or so years. Nor the several thousand before that. And that short period is very underdocumented. So you offer something that is poorly understood, open to varying interpretations, is actually a matter of some dispute, and claim it is perfect. I do not see how you can do that, but suppose you do. It still remains an abstract theory rather than a concrete program - where can I see Islam at work? All I see are Muslims.

So to return to the point: you talk about this idealised "Islam", but what that means in practice is becoming a Muslim. Your program cannot be to turn Britain and the world into an Islamic state as that has been tried and it has not worked. Your program is to turn Britain into another Muslim country. Not another Medina, but another Egypt.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
06-12-2006, 11:41 AM
Why would anyone want to turn brItain into another egypt? I prefer britain.
Anyway, Islam is theoretical? What have you been smoking? Hello! It's what we're trying to live. Islam is not something that just dies you know, or stays in someone's brain!
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Why would anyone want to turn brItain into another egypt? I prefer britain.
Because the more Muslims the better. This is, surely, the only reason you accept for living in Britain - dawa?

Anyway, Islam is theoretical? What have you been smoking? Hello! It's what we're trying to live. Islam is not something that just dies you know, or stays in someone's brain!
Islam as you talk about it is theoretical. Trying is the right verb. Where are Muslims succeeding in living out Islam properly? Not anywhere in the Muslim world from what I can see. Where have they done so recently? You have an idealised version of Islam that does not seem to have ever existed to me or at least not since Muhammed died. Or perhaps Ali. So if I converted I would not join the Islamic world as you talk about it, I would join the Muslim world as it really exists.
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ss25
06-12-2006, 12:08 PM
sigh...

heigou, you come across as very angry in your posts. islam is a perfect way of life given to humans to practise and as we are all aware humans are an imperfect species.. it comes down to "trying" and yes trying is the correct verb because practise makes perfect (Insha - Allah Ameen). everything that has to be practised upon has a theory, when you drive a car you hav a theory to follow and practise upon or even when you cook somethin you hav a recipe to follow. and like all theories given to an imperfect follower you will find sum1 incapable of driving correctly or preparing a plate of food deliciously. wat i am tryin to say is that since Muhammad SAW passed away - who was the perfect Muslim - you will only find Muslims practising Islam by his sunnah, Hadiths and the Quran in a less than perfect way. everything doesnt come in one day and to ask you for example to become the perfect dance or boxer (which cannot exist) in a day would be ridiculous yet the perfect art of boxing /dancing does exist.

\/
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czgibson
06-12-2006, 12:34 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by ss25
heigou, you come across as very angry in your posts.
I don't think HeiGou comes across as being angry at all - I think his posts are always eminently reasonable, and I usually agree with them 100%.

Peace
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ss25
06-12-2006, 12:50 PM
czgibson, im not surprised in the least :) nor is it surprisin that you choose to only respond to that part of my post.

\/
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Joe98
06-12-2006, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
.....Christianity should not be judged by christians, rather by its teachings.
Great!

Islam should not be judged by the actions of Muslims.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 01:58 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/327504-post83.html
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
But a religion, movement, organization, etc...is only as good as its' members.
Does that mean a law prohibiting murder is flawed since human beings will inevitably commit muder? The answer is obviously no. How can a human being's violation of a law be taken as evidence of the law's deficiency?? In other words, just because people will steal does not mean there is a flaw in a law forbidding stealing.

Likewise, when people act against their religion (as the actions which are causing problems in the world are clearly against Islam) how on earth can that be taken as evidence that the religion is not good? It can't.

The reality of the matter is that the behaviour of the adherents of a religion can be used to judge the religion if and only if it can be objectively demonstrated that such behaviour has its roots in the religion itself.

Peace :)
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ss25
06-12-2006, 02:02 PM
what he said :) i totally agree..
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by ss25
heigou, you come across as very angry in your posts.
Actually I have had a very bad week on the Muslim front and am feeling quite upset. So you're not wrong. It is not because I am normally angry. It is just that with the Canadian (alleged) bombers and the insane response to the police raids the penny has dropped. Some of you are very dangerous people and most of the rest of you don't care.

islam is a perfect way of life given to humans to practise and as we are all aware humans are an imperfect species..
You do not see a contradiction between a perfect way of life and humans as an imperfect species? Is it better for Muslims to try and fail to be good Muslims than for kafirs not to try to be good Muslims at all? Would you therefore agree that the Muslim world is closer to the Islamic ideal that the West?

wat i am tryin to say is that since Muhammad SAW passed away - who was the perfect Muslim - you will only find Muslims practising Islam by his sunnah, Hadiths and the Quran in a less than perfect way. everything doesnt come in one day and to ask you for example to become the perfect dance or boxer (which cannot exist) in a day would be ridiculous yet the perfect art of boxing /dancing does exist.
I doubt that the perfect art of boxing or dancing does exist. There is always room for improvement. But I agree that since Muhammed, it seems that Muslims have not lived up to his claimed ideals. Which suggests they never will. Which also suggests that when you offer me the perfect Islamic system what you are really offering me is the less than perfect Muslim world. So you talk about how Islam is the solution and I see Pakistan does not have any answers. Britain on the other hand has a lot going for it. Which would I prefer to preserve? No question. Which would you?
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Syed Nizam
06-12-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.
[S]Couldn't agree more than that dude![/S]

The fact remains that the muslim community at large are easily instigated...:rollseyes
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Woodrow
06-12-2006, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou

No one reads the Japanese papers more like. They were also punlished in Egypt months before the fuss. People might be oppressed in Egypt but it did not cause any fuss. I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.
I agree with you here.

My opinion is that there are people in this world who stand to profit over tensions in the world. It has happened in the past and will happen again in the future. Tensions, fear and war are often builders of wealth for those in the posistion to exploit them. Good tools for promoting personal agendas, very poor for people who have to be the pawns.
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j4763
06-12-2006, 04:24 PM
I think that these cartoons have been exploited by clever people to raise tensions in the Muslim world and create more terrorism.
And who would you say are these "clever" people?
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Muezzin
06-12-2006, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?
That seems to be the case. I don't agree with such behaviour from my fellow Muslims. If we wish to be perceived as peaceful human beings, we should act accordingly.
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ss25
06-12-2006, 05:09 PM
"
I doubt that the perfect art of boxing or dancing does exist. There is always room for improvement
. "

room for improvement to wat, certainly an improvement to sumthin perfect?

Some of you are very dangerous people and most of the rest of you don't care.
u mus kno alooooot of muslims to come up with that conclusion.. yes muslims have reacted to incidents in a bad way but they do not speak for all muslims. do u ever question the senseless and unjustified killing of muslims in iraq, palestine or is this non muslims ridding the wrld of muslims u hate and therefore see no rong in it?

You do not see a contradiction between a perfect way of life and humans as an imperfect species? Is it better for Muslims to try and fail to be good Muslims than for kafirs not to try to be good Muslims at all? Would you therefore agree that the Muslim world is closer to the Islamic ideal that the West?
i thought u mite say that... who said muslims are failing at bein muslims, jus because muslims are propagated by the media as bein "dangerous" (and yes the media has propagated islam in a very negative light - but thats another thread altogether-) Do u even know what bein muslim means or is about? i think its better to try and work for sumthing than nothin at all, thats where belief comes into it.

Which also suggests that when you offer me the perfect Islamic system what you are really offering me is the less than perfect Muslim world.
i am not offering u islam , God is. if u choose to live in the less than perfect western world thats a choice uve made.


it seems that Muslims have not lived up to his claimed ideals. Which suggests they never will.
elaborate? u choose to deduce that muslims are sooo unmuslim based on wat exactly... bombings in canada?

\/
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by ss25
u mus kno alooooot of muslims to come up with that conclusion.. yes muslims have reacted to incidents in a bad way but they do not speak for all muslims. do u ever question the senseless and unjustified killing of muslims in iraq, palestine or is this non muslims ridding the wrld of muslims u hate and therefore see no rong in it?
I do not think they speak for all Muslims. I even said so. But the official Muslim response from "community bodies" has been appalling.

Well yes I do. I have spent years protesting the killings in Palestine. But Iraq is mildly different and I do not think that is senseless. The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims. They treat them with respect and honor - a level of respect and honor that is rarely offered by Muslim countries in return. How much would it be to ask that the Hindus of Pakistan have one single Ghat returned to them so they can cremate a little old lady properly? Too much?

i thought u mite say that... who said muslims are failing at bein muslims, jus because muslims are propagated by the media as bein "dangerous" (and yes the media has propagated islam in a very negative light - but thats another thread altogether-) Do u even know what bein muslim means or is about? i think its better to try and work for sumthing than nothin at all, thats where belief comes into it.
You think the Muslims of Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia are good Muslims?

Elaborate? u choose to deduce that muslims are sooo unmuslim based on wat exactly... bombings in canada?
Actually it is based on what everyone here tells me - the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
You think the Muslims of Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia are good Muslims?
Sweeping generalizations are inherently erroneous - so why are you asking for them? What do you want this judgement on - isolated reports of criminal activity in the media?! Spotlight fallacy again. Every two minutes a woman is raped in the US - does that mean we can say that Americans are rapists?

Should we go with your logic and say that anti-rape laws are ineffective and therefore we should abandon them?? Or perhaps we will be wiser and look beyond the childish oversimplifications and combat the complex and varied factors that contribute to such problems?
the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.
Except that when you say "look at Syria" and "look at Jordan" you don't mean go there and live amongst the people for a significant period of time to get to know what the avergae Muslim there is really like - no, you mean pick up a western newspaper and proceed with some fallacious generalizations about the inhabitants of an entire country!

I am afraid I reject this closeminded irrational view that we can condemn millions of people and denounce entire countries so easily - it is too reminiscent of the genocides which destroyed millions.

Muslims are not evil people, whether they live in the east or the west - get past your bigotry. There are problems in the Muslim world, but they have arisen because of some Muslims are not following the religion properly or have not been educated about the religion properly - by no stretch of one's imagination could that include all Muslims. Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.
The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims. They treat them with respect and honor - a level of respect and honor that is rarely offered by Muslim countries in return.
I can't believe it - are you actually saying that Non-muslims have never done any injustice to Muslims nor disrespected them ever?? Please tell me you're not so blind.
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HeiGou
06-12-2006, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Sweeping generalizations are inherently erroneous - so why are you asking for them? What do you want this judgement on - isolated reports of criminal activity in the media?! Spotlight fallacy again. Every two minutes a woman is raped in the US - does that mean we can say that Americans are rapists?
It is not my place to judge whether Muslims are good Muslims or not. It is not for me to judge Muslims at all. But I keep getting told there is no Islamic state in the world, only one inhabited by bad Muslims. Why wouldn't I believe it? I agree there is a problem with sweeping generalisations but I am not asking for them, I am reporting them.

Should we go with your logic and say that anti-rape laws are ineffective and therefore we should abandon them?? Or perhaps we will be wiser and look beyond the childish oversimplifications and combat the complex and varied factors that contribute to such problems?
How does that follow from my logic? I am all for looking beyond childish over-simplifications. Where can I see a real Islamic country? One that reflects what Islam is really about? Pakistan? Dubai?

Except that when you say "look at Syria" and "look at Jordan" you don't mean go there and live amongst the people for a significant period of time to get to know what the avergae Muslim there is really like - no, you mean pick up a western newspaper and proceed with some fallacious generalizations about the inhabitants of an entire country!
Actually I read LI. I had assumed that some people here would think that some Muslim countries were pretty good. Saudi Arabia for instance, but I have been corrected on that. Saudi Arabia seems to be a particular biet noir in fact.

I am afraid I reject this closeminded irrational view that we can condemn millions of people and denounce entire countries so easily - it is too reminiscent of the genocides which destroyed millions.
Uh huh. Now that is such an extreme view it is too reminiscent of genocides that destroyed millions. I say that Jordan is not a good Islamic country and you claim that is the same as the Holocaust? Come on now, you're usually the voice of sense and reason on the Muslim side. Do you really mean that?

Muslims are not evil people, whether they live in the east or the west - get past your bigotry.
Some of them are but I have never suggest that most, much less all, are evil. Most of them, most of the ones I have met at any rate, are reasonable sorts of people. The insinuation I have said otherwise is, I think, unfair.

There are problems in the Muslim world, but they have arisen because of some Muslims are not following the religion properly or have not been educated about the religion properly
Which is all I said. And it is not merely some, it has to be quite a lot because their governments don't seem to get much more pious.

Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.
It is interesting that you associate non-Muslim with evil. Can you see how as a non-Muslim I might not make that assumption myself?

I can't believe it - are you actually saying that Non-muslims have never done any injustice to Muslims nor disrespected them ever?? Please tell me you're not so blind.
No that is not what I am saying and I do not know where you get that idea from either.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 06:59 PM
Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?
Reply

Immunity
06-12-2006, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?
They use people like you to validate murder.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Immunity
They use people like you to validate murder.
islam comes from the devil? - is this what you are saying:)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
It is not my place to judge whether Muslims are good Muslims or not.
Then don't:
the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims.
I take it you now recognize the fallacy in your previous post since you have changed your position.
But I keep getting told there is no Islamic state in the world, only one inhabited by bad Muslims.
No one said that there is an Islamic state inhabited by 'bad Muslims', there is simply no Islamic state. There are Muslim-majority countries which have some problems, but the Muslims are working hard to remove them and educate others about Islamic teachings. Change doesn't happen overnight - just because Muslims living in Muslim countries don't have a magic wand with which they can instantly transform their country into a fully functional Islamic state, does not make them 'bad Muslims' as you initially said.
How does that follow from my logic? I am all for looking beyond childish over-simplifications.
Then I take it you have retracted your initial comments that Islam cannot be the solution because some people are not practicing it properly.
Where can I see a real Islamic country? One that reflects what Islam is really about? Pakistan? Dubai?
There is not a single country in the world that is free of problems because human beings are not perfect. But that imperfection comes from us, not the laws themselves. Today there is no country that is fully implementing the political and legal directives of Islam, but like I said before, change doesn't happen overnight. I saw a Muslim convert was once asked if the problems in the Muslim world ever made him regret his decision to become a Muslim. He responded very appropriately saying that if one sees a sick person they try to help them, not run away from them. There are problems in Muslim countries but we should work to remove them, not denounce the entire population of a country as you did.
Actually I read LI.
Load-Islam? "The mission of our e-Islamic community is to help foster a better understanding of Islam." [*] Where does it say that we provide media coverage on whether there are "good" or "bad" Muslims in countries around the world?
Saudi Arabia for instance, but I have been corrected on that.
Like any country, it has its pros and cons, but the Muslims of Saudi Arabia are also struggling to improve their country.
I say that Jordan is not a good Islamic country and you claim that is the same as the Holocaust?
Except that is not what you said:
the Muslims in the Muslims world are not good Muslims. Look at Syria. Or Jordan. Or Mali.
So it seems here that you are clearly implying that Jordanian Muslims are 'bad Muslims'. Like any country, Jordan may have its problems, but that doesn't mean that all of its inhabitants are "not good" as you claimed.
Which is all I said. And it is not merely some, it has to be quite a lot because their governments don't seem to get much more pious.
As if the government is always an accurate representation of the people.
Muslims are human beings too, subject to poverty and oppression, and we should work to remove the problems in some Muslim countries rather than denouncing all the inhabitants of such countries as evil, which is plain stupidity.
It is interesting that you associate non-Muslim with evil.
Sorry, that doesn't follow. I said we shouldn't denounce all inhabitants of Muslim countries as evil.
No that is not what I am saying and I do not know where you get that idea from either.
The non-Muslims are not ridding the world of Muslims.
As if there is such a monolithic entity as 'the non-muslims'. Didn't I say sweeping generalizations were harmful?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?
Why do you assume there isn't? The Muslim scholars have unanimously denounced terrorism - just because that doesn't reach your television doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Why do you assume there isn't? The Muslim scholars have unanimously denounced terrorism - just because that doesn't reach your television doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Not a just denouncement, i'm talking about the sort of jihad i see in afganistan and iraq, chechnya and kashmir, why aint suicide bombers bombing insurgents up, it just feels like that would not be a cause worth fighting for .:)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
Not a just denouncement, i'm talking about the sort of jihad i see in afganistan and iraq, chechnya and kashmir, why aint suicide bombers bombing insurgents up, it just feels like that would not be a cause worth fighting for .:)
Because violence is not the answer and suicide bombing is forbidden. Education is the proper answer.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Because violence is not the answer and suicide bombing is forbidden. Education is the proper answer.
Do you think land acquisition can be accomplished through education?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
Do you think land acquisition can be accomplished through education?
I think education, understanding and outreach can help woth a lot, but I don't see what land acquisition has to do with this.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I think education, understanding and outreach can help woth a lot, but I don't see what land acquisition has to do with this.
I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?
Actually most people don't intentionally do something if they know it is a criminal sin in their religion; Saudi Arabia convinced 250 people against terrorist ideology through simple education:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...?articleid=285

Yes, if they persisted in their attempts to spread violence they should be met with force, and that is what law enforcement is for.

Do you know what 'jihad' means? See here:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=64

Regards
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?
First your building on the assumptionthat terrorist will exist against better knowledge (that there will be still people blowing themself up once they realise it's not alowed in Islam.)
Second how do you physically fight a terrorist? Once he commits a suicide bombing there's not much of 'm left to fight. Do you think they run in packs holding a sign: "terrorist bomber, fight me of before I blow".
Thirdly there' are very strict rules to when jihad is possible, and your suggestion does not fall under it. So it would be hypocrite to fight them of on teh ground that they break the rules.

Edit: I noticed this might seem contradictory to Ansar's post. That's simply because he posted from a state's goverment's position who does has teh responsability. Whereas I thought you meant muslims spontaniously picking up arms to fight them of on their own.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by steve
First your building on the assumptionthat terrorist will exist against better knowledge (that there will be still people blowing themself up once they realise it's not alowed in Islam.)
After all the denouncement going on, and the war, and basic humanitarian compassion what more could you tell the terrorist?

Second how do you physically fight a terrorist? Once he commits a suicide bombing there's not much of 'm left to fight. Do you think they run in packs holding a sign: "terrorist bomber, fight me of before I blow".
surely you have to catch a terrorist to impart knowledge will this also be impossible? and not all terroroists are suicide bombers some you can fight with a gun.


Thirdly there' are very strict rules to when jihad is possible, and your suggestion does not fall under it. So it would be hypocrite to fight them of on teh ground that they break the rules.
if they are going against islamic principles then surely this is blatant murder does this not require some sort of action even law enforceent is lacking in its zeal compared to the zeal of terror.

:)
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 08:30 PM
Yes, if they persisted in their attempts to spread violence they should be met with force, and that is what law enforcement is for.
ok my new argument:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism? and why when the law does enforce against terrorists do muslims including scholars, tv channels and the abundance of muslim committees not support this law enforcement, I feel sorry for pakistan and think musharraf needs to do more to combat extremism but pakistani people say musharraf is a criminal for his actions against terrorists. :)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 08:38 PM
Lucifer,
Your comment is too general, you will need to specify. Where is there not enough law enforcement?
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Lucifer,
Your comment is too general, you will need to specify. Where is there not enough law enforcement?

syria where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
iraq where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
afganistan where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
iran where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
pakistan where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
lybia where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
somalia where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
"muslim country" where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities

it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough:)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough:)
No. All you've said is that there are cells 'waiting to commit atrocities', but you haven't given any evidence. It is a bit like saying that there are rapists waiting to commit rapes in America and therefore American law enforcement agencies are incompetent for not pre-empting them. If you can't see the future, it is not easy to find out who is 'waiting' to commit a crime. Can you give an example where crimes are being commited and no steps have been taken to stop them?
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 08:53 PM
if they are going against islamic principles then surely this is blatant murder does this not require some sort of action even law enforceent is lacking in its zeal compared to the zeal of terror.
There is a punishment for murder, but with a suicide attack, that punishment is always "to late". Of course one should have to try to prevent it in advance, and the best way is with education as Ansar said.


Originally Posted by LUCIFER
ok my new argument:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?
First we need to define "extremism". If I choose not to shake hands with people from the opposite sexe because of my religion a lot of people will find that "extreme" yet there is nothing wrong with that and it lgives no reason for the goverment to "stop" me. Just because soemone is "extreme", doesn't mean he will violate his religion with an act of terrorism.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No. All you've said is that there are cells 'waiting to commit atrocities', but you haven't given any evidence.
let me ask you personally, what do you really think? do you really think that rapists and terrorist cells are an accurate comparison, be honest. What of all the terrorism we have seen in the last 4 years are you really going to deny that their is no network, how did such an ideology not escape the correct islamic educators? why was this all not picked up as and when it was forming their is no way this is spontaneous.


It is a bit like saying that there are rapists waiting to commit rapes in America and therefore American law enforcement agencies are incompetent for not pre-empting them.

rapists are post-defined they are not held by an ideology which gives them liberty to their sexual advances, they are driven by their raw impulse, terrorists are great planners actually yes you are right but not for rapists but for serial killers and serial rapists. Yes no-one can do much about the serial killers, but what about terrorosits why is it that in the west the people including me are more forthcoming to the authorities with intelligence? Why are people not more forthcoming in muslim countries. also about rapists how comes rape murder etc is more in control in muslim countries than distortion of islam itself? ie terrorism.


If you can't see the future, it is not easy to find out who is 'waiting' to commit a crime. Can you give an example where crimes are being commited and no steps have been taken to stop them?
yes terrorism in muslim countries, hamas is a prime example of a crime which continues and is validated by the law enforcers. In the helmand province of afganistan the law enforcers have failed to prevent the re-grouping of taliban. In syria hezbollah are allowed to fire rockets into israel. In pakistan terrorist cells are allowed to pass into kashmir, to and from afganistan etc etc and the local people plus law enforcers do nothing about it especially balochis. In iraq locals infiltrate law enforcement and give intelligence to the insurgents.

I would really like to say things are improving but deep down inside I know they aint.:)
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 09:13 PM
There is a punishment for murder, but with a suicide attack, that punishment is always "to late". Of course one should have to try to prevent it in advance, and the best way is with education as Ansar said.
forget the suicide bombers, their is an army of taliban running towards a construction worker who is building a road for new afganistan, so that they can massacre him cos he's kaffir or whatever, now you happen to be in the vicinity with a rare collection of videos about the concept of jihad in islam, are you going to fight the terrorists or invite them for education?, the answer is simple you cannot educate these people you and me would both fight.




First we need to define "extremism". If I choose not to shake hands with people from the opposite sexe because of my religion a lot of people will find that "extreme" yet there is nothing wrong with that and it lgives no reason for the goverment to "stop" me. Just because soemone is "extreme", doesn't mean he will violate his religion with an act of terrorism.
[/QUOTE]


ok fine, you know without a shadow of a doubt that the individuals concerned are going to do something that is against islam so to rephrase:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who carry out anti-islamic acts?
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 09:22 PM
[/QUOTE]
ok fine, you know without a shadow of a doubt that the individuals concerned are going to do something that is against islam so to rephrase:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who carry out anti-islamic acts?[/QUOTE]

Becasue when teh act is commited it's usually to late for law enforcement. Unlees you give your taliban example. OK here I answer teh following: Because the country is majorly messed up as a result of America's foreign policy. First America gave birth to their regime to help them fight "the commies". Now they made peace with "the commies" and start fighting "the muslims". And you're surprised these uneducated people who lived their entire life in war commit crimes?
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 09:25 PM
And you're surprised these uneducated people who lived their entire life in war commit crimes?
No i am not surprised that they commit crimes, I am surprised that the ummah allows them to get away with it, when did islam ever say "its ok that youve become a terrorist cos youve had a hard life"?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
let me ask you personally, what do you really think? do you really think that rapists and terrorist cells are an accurate comparison, be honest. What of all the terrorism we have seen in the last 4 years are you really going to deny that their is no network, how did such an ideology not escape the correct islamic educators? why was this all not picked up as and when it was forming their is no way this is spontaneous.
The problem is, Lucifer, you keep switiching back and forth between two different things. You initially asked about the ideology, in which case I explained that Muslim scholars are combating these incorrect beliefs and have been succesfull in many cases (eg. the 250 people in Saudi). Then you switched to why law enforcement is not preventing criminal activity, not ideology, and that was analogous to the rape situation I gave. Law encforcement in Muslim countries works to prevent people from breaking the law, but it isn't possible to see into the future to pre-empt those waiting to use violence, whether that be rape or terrorism.
Why are people not more forthcoming in muslim countries.
Why do you assume they aren't? Spotlight fallacy again.

And obviously the infrastructure in a third-world country is not the same as a developed nation, so the quality of law enforcement will not be the same, but that by no means justifies the blatantly false notion that Muslims are not trying to prevent terrorist attacks.
yes terrorism in muslim countries, hamas is a prime example of a crime which continues and is validated by the law enforcers. In the helmand province of afganistan the law enforcers have failed to prevent the re-grouping of taliban. In syria hezbollah are allowed to fire rockets into israel. In pakistan terrorist cells are allowed to pass into kashmir, to and from afganistan etc etc and the local people plus law enforcers do nothing about it especially balochis. In iraq locals infiltrate law enforcement and give intelligence to the insurgents.
Pick a country, and we'll look into the evidence of whether the law enforcement is really not doing anything to stop individuals from acts of terror.
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
No i am not surprised that they commit crimes, I am surprised that the ummah allows them to get away with it, when did islam ever say "its ok that youve become a terrorist cos youve had a hard life"?
"the ummah" so you're sugegsting the neighbour country's invade afghanistan to fight terrorism, oh, they would have to to deal with the UN and stuff, which might become problematic... In fact that would be considered invading a neighbour country. You know, one goverment doesn't have jurisdiction in the other country.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 09:43 PM
"Law encforcement in Muslim countries works to prevent people from breaking the law, but it isn't possible to see into the future to pre-empt those waiting to use violence, whether that be rape or terrorism."

then scholars need to be registered under the state law enforcement and all religious education should from now on be passed by the legal system of such countries so that ideology is consistent, so let me put it another way why do muslim countries not have anti-hate laws and religious hatred bills, and all the many laws the west have come up with?

Why do you assume they aren't? Spotlight fallacy again.
well the countries have visible terrorist groups hamas, hexbollah, lashkar etc etc its not an assumption these people flaunt their terrorism and ideology infront of the law enforcers. Someone somewhere has not been quick with bringing these people to the surface they now have an army, this was'nt developed over night.

And obviously the infrastructure in a third-world country is not the same as a developed nation, so the quality of law enforcement will not be the same, but that by no means justifies the blatantly false notion that Muslims are not trying to prevent terrorist attacks.
is islam not equipped for 3rd world countries, surely your law system should be able to root out terrorism and ideology in all worlds.

"Pick a country, and we'll look into the evidence of whether the law enforcement is really not doing anything to stop individuals from acts of terror

palistine is a good one, its not just law enforsement its the locals themselves, you know hamas executes anyone who is found out to have told about a suicide bombing before it happens, their was a women a couple of weeks back and they got her brother to shoot her in the head i felt so sorry for her.



i think i am asking for an islamic revolution against the terrorists.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 09:46 PM
the ummah" so you're sugegsting the neighbour country's invade afghanistan to fight terrorism,
well how are you gonna create a caliphate youre gonna have to invade the naighbours at some point they aint gonna willingly join you.


oh, they would have to to deal with the UN and stuff, which might become problematic...
if you loved your bretheren you would do anything, your willing to die for your faith aint you so what the harm in annoying the un


In fact that would be considered invading a neighbour country. You know, one goverment doesn't have jurisdiction in the other country.
[/QUOTE]

terrorists do it its called insurgency.:)
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
well how are you gonna create a caliphate youre gonna have to invade the naighbours at some point they aint gonna willingly join you.
I thought you were suggesting fighting of terrorism, now you're talking about forming a caliphate? Those are two totally difrent discussions.

if you loved your bretheren you would do anything, your willing to die for your faith aint you so what the harm in annoying the un
es but we are not to "run onto a sword". It's one thing to be willing and it's another to seek death. Apart from that, my objections were'nt really due to fear of death, but because you can't just go and attack anyone fro any given reason. The Un thing was only to show that your "theory" wouldn't work that well in practice.

terrorists do it its called insurgency.:)
And because they do it so should we?
Apart from that, Terrorist fight in geurillastyle. Not that easy to fight off.

it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough
What about the colleteral damage? All the innocent muslims who fell victem of this "hard hitting"?
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 10:00 PM
And because they do it so should we?
Apart from that, Terrorist fight in geurillastyle. Not that easy to fight off
become pseudo-guerillas and then secretly deliver intelligence back to the law enforcers, yeah why dont the people pretend to be insurgents and then kill the terrorists when they get close to them?
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 10:04 PM
become pseudo-guerillas and then secretly deliver intelligence back to the law enforcers, yeah why dont the people pretend to be insurgents and then kill the terrorists when they get close to them?
You can't just kill somebody because he will kill. Capital punishment works after commiting murder, not prior to it. you can detain, prevent the person to attack innocent people, but if you murder him on ground of suspision, what's the difrence between teh executer and teh executed?
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by steve
You can't just kill somebody because he will kill. Capital punishment works after commiting murder, not prior to it. you can detain, prevent the person to attack innocent people, but if you murder him on ground of suspision, what's the difrence between teh executer and teh executed?

i am against capital punishment and pro-muder in this instance, anyhow thats not important nor is your thing about detaining cos law enforcers dont arrest or detain terrorists they blow them up with bombs, and why suspicion when you have infiltrated and you see the ideology you know you dont need anymore evidence. I must say their is too much "cant do this cant do that" thats why the terrorists seem to be winning.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-12-2006, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
so let me put it another way why do muslim countries not have anti-hate laws and religious hatred bills, and all the many laws the west have come up with?
You can't paint all Muslim countries with the same brush. Some do, some don't. It it certainly something to work on.
well the countries have visible terrorist groups hamas
Hamas is the government, so it is not an issue of law enforcement vs. terror here. If you want to discuss state terror in that region we need only look at the recent events.
is islam not equipped for 3rd world countries
It has nothing to do with Islam, I am speaking of the infrastructure of the country. There are third-world countries with a poor infrastructure that have Christian majorities too, does that mean that Christianity is not suited for 3rd world countries? You need to open your eyes and realize that religion is not the issue here.
surely your law system should be able to root out terrorism and ideology in all worlds.
Islam is the system of laws which denounces and condemns terrorism. It is up to us to put it in practice and 'root out' those who violate these laws. Islam is not a person who roots things out.
you know hamas executes anyone who is found out to have told about a suicide bombing before it happens, their was a women a couple of weeks back and they got her brother to shoot her in the head i felt so sorry for her.
Always back up what you say with evidence, please.
i think i am asking for an islamic revolution against the terrorists.
And yet you are ignoring the causes. You refuse to recognize that terrorism is bred by a complex variety of environmental factors. Let me give you an analogy: Suppose there is a community that lives near a waste facility or some other factory that leaks pollution into the area. As a result, disease starts spreading in this community so they ask others for help and you tell them to simply buy medicine. That isn't going to help if you don't address the cause of the problem.

Likewise, the problems today in the Muslim world stem from a variety of factors especially those socio-economic, military or political. Just blaming Muslims and asking for Muslims to start some imaginative 'revolution' isn't going to help if you don't assist in spreading education, improving the economic and political infrastructure of the countries, removing the injustices and violence which breeds the hatred, and opening the doors to understanding and dialogue.
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Sarmad
06-12-2006, 10:11 PM
What about the colleteral damage? All the innocent muslims who fell victem of this "hard hitting"?
[/QUOTE]

i was talking about rooting out cells in western countries, as for collateral damage - i just dont know how else you can eliminate for sure, its horrible that innocent people die and i will say this that when oriental or muslim people are killed in their hundereds people dont really feel much but when one white person is killed in the orient or in a muslim country then its a big thing in both the east and the west, i think its about respect on a subliminal level we all have more respect for westerners when it comes to others their is a death of conscience and that is sad:offended:
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Woodrow
06-12-2006, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by LUCIFER
become pseudo-guerillas and then secretly deliver intelligence back to the law enforcers, yeah why dont the people pretend to be insurgents and then kill the terrorists when they get close to them?
That is a good example of what the terrorists do. Does this mean that under some cicumstances terrorism is Jusified?
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Abdul Fattah
06-12-2006, 10:14 PM
i am against capital punishment and pro-muder in this instance, anyhow thats not important nor is your thing about detaining cos law enforcers dont arrest or detain terrorists they blow them up with bombs,
law enforcement blows terrorists up... euhm maybe in some places, but I don't think that's the general way of dealing with it.

and why suspicion when you have infiltrated and you see the ideology you know you dont need anymore evidence.
There's a difrence between intent of a crime and comitting a crime. It's not about evidence, it's a question of law and punishment.

I must say their is too much "cant do this cant do that"
Yes obviously we follow our way and you follow yours. why do you expect us to throw away our ways? Just because it would entertain you? Are you getting lonely down there in hell?
(btw, readers that might not have noticed, lucifers profileinfo says: location: hell; just to show where that comment came from and so nobody would think I'm passing judgements here)
thats why the terrorists seem to be winning.
It aint over 'till it's over. We'll see who's winning and loosing on the day of judgement. And with that in mind, you might see why we "can't do this, can't do that"
Reply

Sarmad
06-12-2006, 10:46 PM
I am speaking of the infrastructure of the country
How does infrastructure influence shariah in muslim countries?


“It is up to us to put it in practice and 'root out' those who violate these laws.”

Then why don’t people? Is it poor education of Islamic laws?

Always back up what you say with evidence, please.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/8574.htm

“And yet you are ignoring the causes”
trus me when I say I understand because I have witnessed it myself and my people destroyed all the terrorists by terrorising the terrorists.


but I don't think that's the general way of dealing with it.
can you show how else they do it its always shoot first ask questions later.

it's a question of law and punishment.
even if the people are lawless


why do you expect us to throw away our ways? Just because it would entertain you?
this is a very serious issue but you seem to think that i am need of entertaining?

We'll see who's winning and loosing on the day of judgement
thats too late

That is a good example of what the terrorists do. Does this mean that under some cicumstances terrorism is Jusified?
you can terrorise terrorist and it will be justified, you terrorise innocents and that will not be justified, terrorists ask for an atrocity innocent people do not ask for an atrocity, terrorsits are askin for it.:)
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-13-2006, 03:29 PM
Even if the people are lawless
The basi principle of crime and punishment exists in a lawless enviroment. Ponit is, you cannot simply kill someone because of what he "could" do. Doing that would make us no better then teh terrorists themselfs.

this is a very serious issue but you seem to think that i am need of entertaining?
Our religious obligations are the upmost serious thing of all, what other reason. The most important thing in this world, as this world is merely a test. So whatever reason you can bring for us to forsake our obligations and restrictments are inadequate. The reason I asked wheter it was for "your" entertainment, was because back then you were posting under the name of "lucifer".

thats too late
Wheter or not you believe in teh comming of this day is a personal matter. However, you cannot contemplate the notion of such a day and at the same time suggest that it's to late. If the day comes (and it surely will) then that means this life is but a test for that day. And that day is not to late but right on time; following the test that went before it.


you can terrorise terrorist and it will be justified, you terrorise innocents and that will not be justified, terrorists ask for an atrocity innocent people do not ask for an atrocity, terrorsits are askin for it.:)
No, two rights do not make a wrong. You cannot mistreat peopel on the base that your victems mistreat peopel by themself. It is hypocrite.
Reply

?...
06-13-2006, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
I don't know much about Islam but from what i see on the t.v. it seems to be that a lot of Muslims when they get challenged about their faith resort to threats of violence. Like the danish cartoon stuff. Does anyone else here agree or disagree with this?
:sl:

No

i think the media aims the minority weak ones.

Inshallah Majority wake up.
Reply

SirZubair
06-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sarmad
Its not that their scared of debate its just they get carried away with recalling what scholars have said, muslims need to take time out away from mosques and parents and learn Islam for themselves, its not enuff to come on the forum and agree with the person who writes the most, quality not quantity people:)
Too true.

Alot of muslims out there need to Get Out There and find out what islam really is.

I know too many people,whom i ask questions about islam,and they reply with. "my dad said..." "...my mum said..." and more than half the time it is clear that their parents are following their culture rather than islam.

aud'billah.

wa'salaam
Reply

Ghazi
06-13-2006, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Too true.

Alot of muslims out there need to Get Out There and find out what islam really is.

I know too many people,whom i ask questions about islam,and they reply with. "my dad said..." "...my mum said..." and more than half the time it is clear that their parents are following their culture rather than islam.

aud'billah.

wa'salaam
:sl:

Sadly the muslims of today are spoon fed information and this cause blind following ect.
Reply

Kidman
06-13-2006, 06:22 PM
That's how the government rules the nation to making them believe what they see.

They make them work from 9-5... do whatever chores after 5... then the person gets home and is tired, might watch their favorite TV show, turn on fox news... and is too tired to do actual research on what is goign on... if it is true or not, so they just believe it, then next day is the same.

kidman
Reply

SirZubair
06-13-2006, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Let's run through that, Christianity should not be judged by Christians, America should not be judged by Americans (especially Bush), atheism should not be judged by atheists. Where are we going to stop?
We stop where common sense kicks in.

And common sense tells me that a rational minded person wouldnt judge a religon according to the actions of its followers.I for one,judge people for their actions.I dont resort to "..those christians.." "..the jews.." "..bloody armrika...",..Islam doesnt believe in Collective guilt. And thats where this ends.

Wa'salaam.
Reply

SirZubair
06-13-2006, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Sarmad
Why is their never jihad against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?
Just for you..actually,for anyone that is interested.

click HERE

A PDF ( Why_don_t_Muslims_condemn_terrorism.pdf ) file has been attatched on that forum by a member called Anon1.

I cant load it on here,so go there and check it out.

wa'salaam.

Originally Posted by Sarmad
Do you think land acquisition can be accomplished through education?
Dialogue can bring about the changes in this world that a man holding a Sword cant even dream about.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-14-2006, 10:05 AM
A reliable scholar can teach you alot mroe about Islam than you could by just picking up the Qur'an and expecting to understand everything. The best Taalib ul 'ilm used to learn from trustworthy teachers, so I don't see how we can expect to achieve more by teaching ourselves the deen. But ofcourse it is up to us to seek the knowledge.
W'salaam
Reply

Sarmad
06-14-2006, 10:53 AM
If you had the knowledge then surely you would have all the answers and peoples questions would end but the simple answer is that you dont, perhaps a simple non-muslim can discover more about koran than those with the special "ilm".:thankyou:

I dont agree with your idea of learning from others and it is ok that people dont I have no intention of spreading rumours but I have the intention of researching MYSELF and drawing my own conclusions for MYSELF and not infringin my learning on any other than MYSELF.:)

It is ok to share your learning that should not be equated with spreading rumours simply agree to disagree.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-14-2006, 11:00 AM
But if you don't know the full history or the background information, you can easily misunderstand things. And it may even really confuse you. Anyway, in Islam we don't believe that any Tom D!ck or Harry can interpret the Qur'an. It may lead you saying of Allah that which is not true. And that truly is a dangerous situation to be in.
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Sarmad
06-14-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
But if you don't know the full history or the background information, you can easily misunderstand things. And it may even really confuse you. Anyway, in Islam we don't believe that any Tom D!ck or Harry can interpret the Qur'an. It may lead you saying of Allah that which is not true. And that truly is a dangerous situation to be in.

But thats why I said I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone else if I was wrong then only I will suffer the consequences, people may read what I write and it may feel sensible to them too and as more people believe then perhaps the nature of the "ilm" will change and people will be more inclined to look and learn for themselves.:)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-19-2006, 09:10 AM
All i'm saying, is that if you were Muslim, you would be sinning. But since you're not, I guess that is of little concern to you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.:)
-Peace
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Sarmad
06-19-2006, 02:37 PM
All i'm saying, is that if you were Muslim, you would be sinning.
no its the first time youve said that i would be sinning by interpreting it in my own way and anyways proove it where does it say i cant interpret it my way, the more i learn about islam the more i think its not universal.


But since you're not, I guess that is of little concern to you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.:)
-Peace
true:thankyou:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
06-19-2006, 02:43 PM
It's a sin if you say something against Allah and His messenger that isn't true:).
Reply

------
06-19-2006, 02:48 PM
the more i learn about islam the more i think its not universal.
:rollseyes

It's a sin if you say something against Allah and His messenger that isn't true.:)
Its a sin also known as SHIRK
Reply

Sarmad
06-19-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
It's a sin if you say something against Allah and His messenger that isn't true:).

only god would know if the iterpretation was untrue then your above quote would apply, since you dont know then you cant judge.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
06-19-2006, 02:56 PM
Ok my message isn't getting through to you, so with your cooperation, i'd like it if we just moved on to something more beneficial.
-Peace
Reply

------
06-19-2006, 02:57 PM
Salam....Ok....can someone enlighten me here....Am kinda lost....safe....Walaykum Salam
Reply

aamirsaab
06-19-2006, 02:59 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Dialogue can bring about the changes in this world that a man holding a Sword cant even dream about.
That's the exact attitude needed nowadays for muslims and non-muslims.
Reply

Sarmad
06-19-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

That's the exact attitude needed nowadays for muslims and non-muslims.
you need education before dialogue otherwise youll be talking with someone with a closed mind
Reply

Sarmad
06-19-2006, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
Ok my message isn't getting through to you, so with your cooperation, i'd like it if we just moved on to something more beneficial.
-Peace
sure :)
Reply

Zohair
06-19-2006, 04:48 PM
you know where it says you can't have your own interpretation? in the qur'an lol. Islam is the only way to get into paradise. if you have Iman (belief) in Allah, and his oneness, follow and believe in the Prophets A.S and the final prophet Muhammad SAW, and follow the quran. this is the only way to get into paradise. and so if you are not muslim, you are sinning

Islam is universal, as it says in the quran that the Prophet Muhammad is a mercy to the world! note: the key word here is world :)
Reply

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