To the People of Islam

[The Athiest]

Hello my name is John and I am Atheist.

I was a Christian at a young age, however after I have studied the history of Religion some what and now consider myself to be Scientific in nature.

I have viewed this PBS documentary and I found it so interesting about the history of religion and I wish to share it with you.

I would appreciate it if you could view it and let me know what you think about it.

Here is the link for the documentary.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=naked+truth

Thank You for taking your time to respond.

[The Athiest]

My Brothers and Sisters

I found out I can not post links here yet, so I will ask this question.

I am Atheist and I do not understand why People of faith do not study the origin of their faith, in most cases they only study the Religious writings of the faith and not the history behind how other accent religions are part of their religion.

Once one has this understanding only then can they fully understand their faith.

What I am referring to are the Greek and Egyptian Gods like Amen RA, Mytheris, Hercules.

These Gods were before the time of Judaism yet they are the same story.

Thank You for your response

The Atheist

[Looking4Peace]

You need to explain what exactly you mean, i in fact have studied many different religions since i was a child including their histories, everything from Christianity (was a catholic), Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and even briefly Hinduism which was the most complicated to get through, they all have similarities but are not the same story and the greek gods u refer to are not the same as Judaism. Show me some proof and do not assume religious people do not study their stuff and other stuff for that matter. What do you think scholars are?

[duskiness]

Hi The Atheist!
Welcome to LI forum :)
I studied comperative history of religion at Uni for 2 years.
So some of us try to learn.
n.
ps: Hercules wasn't god ;)

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[Abdul Fattah]

Have you studied the history of Islam?

I am Atheist and I do not understand why People of faith do not study the origin of their faith, in most cases they only study the Religious writings of the faith and not the history behind how other accent religions are part of their religion.

That's a biased view. If you believe in Islam then the previous prophets are not the "influences" of our religion, but simply knowlegde from teh same source, although slightly altered throughout history.

Once one has this understanding only then can they fully understand their faith.

First of All I doubt there's such a thing as truly understand or fully understand ones religion. Studying does of course help understand, and history is important. But if you believe the religious source to study history is just as accurate as the secular. At least in Islam ,where things haven't been concealed, texts haven't been altered etc...

What I am referring to are the Greek and Egyptian Gods like Amen RA, Mytheris, Hercules.

These Gods were before the time of Judaism yet they are the same story.

I don't think they have any influence in history, you're welcome of course to prove me wrong (please don't refer to links, make your own arguments, perhaps based on links)

Thank You for your response

welcome :)

[The Athiest]

Show me some proof and do not assume religious people do not study their stuff and other stuff for that matter. What do you think scholars are?

My Proof:

The Egyptian God Amen-RA (Also known as the Son of God) He Died and Rose again 3 days later. He is also the reason Christians say Amen after thier prayers.

[Pk_#2]

The reason they say Amen...is cause it's the hebrew word for 'let it be'

?

:)

[Looking4Peace]

My Proof:

The Egyptian God Amen-RA (Also known as the Son of God) He Died and Rose again 3 days later. He is also the reason Christians say Amen after thier prayers.

might be a similarity but you are claiming the same and that has nothing to do with Islam so your point is invalid when you say all religions are the same as the ancient greek and egyption gods. by the way when you provide proof next time provide some educational or scholarly link or copy and paste with author or people will think u just made this up.

[The Athiest]

Hi The Atheist!
Welcome to LI forum :)
I studied comperative history of religion at Uni for 2 years.
So some of us try to learn.
n.
ps: Hercules wasn't god ;)

Very good, Hurcules was a Hero figure not a God.

I believe Jesus never existed. It says in the Bible

"If Jesus had been on Earth, He not even would be a Priest"
Hebrews 8:4

Raglands, The study of Folklore

Takes the Hero and God figures from all of History and scores them on their simularities.

Jesus took third place with 19. Second place was Theseus with 20 and first place was Odeipus had 22 simularities.

In recorded history when the Christians were confronted with the fact that what they had wrote already existed they said that Satain had planned it that way to trick people. So this proves that they were copying from previous Mythology.

[The Athiest]

The reason they say Amen...is cause it's the hebrew word for 'let it be'
:)

This is true my friend.

Hebrew came nearly 2,000 years after the Egyption language.

The Egyption's said Amen after they ended their prayers to Amen-RA.

[The Athiest]

might be a similarity but you are claiming the same and that has nothing to do with Islam.

Crystal4Peace

Islam came from Judyism as did Christianity, this is how it is the same.

[The Athiest]

This is to everyone here on this forum.

Science and Religion are branches of the same tree. They are trying to obtain the answers to the unknown questions of Man.

My objective, is to allow for the understanding that we do not know all the answers and it is ok to live in the mystery.

Reality is not the same for all people, at all levels of aspect. The Wealthy realize a different lifestyle and outlook than the Poor.

The Reality of the individual is dynamic yet connected and evolving with constant change. We are able to change and direct our Reality and this is the most important aspect of Reality.

I know this sounds confusing, yet when understood it is not so difficult.

Reality is a word and meaning that deserves great detail of study and understanding.

[Pk_#2]

And Islam is a word that expects great respect, CONSIDER IT :)

woot peace !

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Welcome to the forum!

I hope you will find it both a beneficial and enjoyable stay here, God-Willing :).

I am sorry, but I did not have time to watch all of the video you posted. However, I saw the little part about the sun being a key feature of the major religions due to its association with life, which I think is inaccurate since in Islam, the sun and everything else was created by God (Allaah) and therefore has no power of its own.

I think it is important to check the validity of what we find on the internet, since many times misconceptions and inaccuracies arise.

Peace.

[glo]

hes trying to turn people away, forum troll, i honestly do not even know what he is talking about nor do i care

Why do you think he is a forum troll, trying to turn people away?
He clearly comes with an atheist message - that's his right. We do welcome people a different faiths and none, don't we?? :?

Sometimes people have different views to our own. That can be tought to deal with - especially if those people are knowledgeable and articulate in their argument! :rollseyes
No reason to try and talk badly about them, though, if you ask me.

Th Athiest is new here. Let's welcome him and hear him out. :)

Peace.

[The Athiest]

This is how I view Reality and how I beleve a Bible writen in this day and age might look.

This is how I would like to see Religion today. I wrote this and I know you are of the Islam faith. Just for one minute look at what I wrote, It is ok to laugh at me but my goal would be to bring our small planet together as one.

Definition of terms
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Church The word church is derived through Middle and Old English cirice, circe from the Greek κυριακον "Lord's". However, most English versions of the New Testament use the word church to translate ecclesia, in Greek ἐκκλησία, literally "the called out" referring to those who are saved and not to a religious assembly. The Scots and Scottish English word kirk has a related etymology and is a cognate.
In English, the word can be used in reference to a gathering of people for a religious meeting but is sometimes used to refer to a building or group of buildings. It is also used to refer to a denomination that places the leadership of all congregations in a central location, such as the "Roman Catholic Church"; in this context it is usually capitalized. It can also be used in an institutional sense to refer to all churches, such as "the church today".
Although the Christian Bible says that the church is actually the body of believers, in Jewish times, the temple at Jerusalem held the presence of God in a place called the Holy of Holies. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Bible says that the Holy Spirit (the presence of God) dwells within each believer.

Reality in everyday usage means "everything that exists." The term "Reality," in its most liberal sense, includes everything that is, whether or not it is observable, accessible or understandable by science, philosophy, theology or any other system of analysis. Reality in this sense may include both being and nothingness, whereas "existence" is often restricted to being. (Compare with nature). But reality really means the consciousness of everything and everyone that exists, consciousness is reality and existense.
In the strict sense of European-German philosophy, there are levels or gradation to the nature and conception of reality. These levels include, from the most subjective to the most rigorous:

Science (from Latin scientia - knowledge) refers to a system of acquiring knowledge – based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism – aimed at finding out the truth. The basic unit of knowledge is the theory, which is a hypothesis that is predictive. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.
Most scientists feel that scientific investigation must adhere to the scientific method, a process for evaluating empirical knowledge under the working assumption of methodological materialism, which explains observable events in nature by natural causes without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it. Particular specialized studies that make use of empirical methods are often referred to as sciences as well. This article concentrates on the more specific definition.
Science as defined above is sometimes termed pure science to differentiate it from applied science, the application of research to human needs.
Fields of science may also be classified along two major lines:
• Experiment, the search for first-hand information, versus theory, the development of models to explain what is observed
• Natural science, the study of the natural phenomena, versus social science, the study of human behaviour and society
Mathematics is often referred to as a science, but the fruits of mathematical sciences, known as theorems, are obtained by logical derivations, which presume axiomatic systems rather than a combination of observation and reasoning. Many mathematical methods have fundamental utility in the empirical sciences, of which the fruits are hypotheses and theories.

Nature (also called the material world, the material universe, the natural world, and the natural universe) is all matter and energy, especially in its essential form. Nature is the subject of scientific study, and the history of the concept is linked to the history of science. The English word derives from a Latin term, natura, which was in turn a translation of a Greek term, physis (φύσις). Natura is related to the Latin words relating to "birth", while physis relates to Greek words relating to "growth". In scale, "nature" includes everything from the universal to the subatomic. This includes all things animal, plant, and mineral; all natural resources and events (hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes). It also includes the behaviour of living animals, and processes associated with inanimate objects - the "way" that things change.

Faith The word faith has various uses; its central meaning is similar to "belief", "trust" or "confidence", but unlike these terms, "faith" tends to imply a transpersonal rather than interpersonal relationship – with God or a higher power. The object of faith can be a person (or even an inanimate object or state of affairs) or a proposition (or body of propositions, such as a religious credo). In each case, however, the faithful subject's faith is in an aspect of the object that cannot be rationally proven or objectively known. Faith can also be defined as accepting as true something which one has been told by someone who is believed to be trustworthy. In its proper sense faith means trusting the word of another.
Religion (see etymology below) —sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system—is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine; and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions and rituals associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe. In the course of the development of religion, it has taken many forms in various cultures and individuals.
Occasionally, the word "religion" is used to designate what should be more properly described as "organized religion" – that is, an organization of people supporting the exercise of some religion, often taking the form of a legal entity (see religion-supporting organization). There are many different religions in the world today.
Overview
With an estimated 2.3 billion adherents[1], Christianity is arguably the world's largest religion. Its origins are intertwined with Judaism, with which it shares much sacred text and early history; specifically, it shares the Hebrew Bible as the Old Testament.2 Christianity is considered an Abrahamic religion, along with Judaism and Islam (see Judeo-Christo-Islamic).
In the Christian scriptures, the names "Christian" and hence "Christianity" are first attested in Acts 11:26: "For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch Jesus' disciples were first called Christians" (Gr. χριστιανους, from Christ Gr. Χριστός, which means "the anointed").

Christianity is a monotheistic religion centered on the stories it teaches about the life, and actions, of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament.
Denominations
Within Christianity, numerous distinct groups have developed, with diverse beliefs that vary widely by culture and place. Since the Reformation, Christianity is usually represented as being divided into three main branches:
• Eastern Christianity, includes the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, all with a combined membership of more than 240 million baptized members;
• Catholicism: With more than 1 billion baptized members, this category includes the Roman Catholic Church, the largest single body -- which includes several Eastern Catholic communities -- as well as certain smaller communities (e.g., the the Old-Catholics;
• Protestantism: The category includes numerous denominations and groups such as: Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Evangelical, Charismatic, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Anabaptists, and Pentecostals. The oldest of these groups separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th-century Protestant Reformation. The later groups typically formed as separations from the older ones. Some Protestants identify themselves simply as Christian, or born-again Christian. Others, particularly among Anglicans and in Neo-Lutheranism, identify themselves as being "both Catholic and Protestant." Worldwide total is just under 500 million.
Other denominations and churches which self-identify as Christian but which distance themselves from the above classifications together claim around 275 million members. These include African indigenous churches with up to 110 million members (estimates vary widely), Jehovah's Witnesses with approximately 6.6 million members3, The Church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also called Mormons) with more than 12 million members4, and other groups.5 The early leaders of most of these groups were originally Protestant adherents.
These broad divisions do not themselves encompass unanimity. On the contrary, some branches encompass vast disagreements, while in other cases the divisions overlook strong sympathies between/among the groups. Nevertheless, this tends to be the standard overview of distinctions, especially as viewed in the Western world.
A chart showing the development of various churches from their roots in early Christianity.
Beliefs
Jesus' crucifixion as portrayed by Diego Velázquez. Jesus' life, especially his crucifixion and resurrection, is the basis of Christianity.
Enormous diversity of belief exists among Christians. Nevertheless, certain doctrines have come to characterize the mainstream of Christian theology.
The Trinity
Main article: Trinity
The belief that God is a single eternal being who exists as three distinct, eternal, and indivisible persons: Father, Son (Divine Logos, incarnated as Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).

6. Please refrain from typing extremely huge letters in order to get your message through.

[glo]

Just for one minute look at what I wrote

Are you kidding?
Where did you cut and paste that lot???
Give me a year or two, and I might try to read it all.

Don't make me regret I said we should hear you out! ;D

Peace.

[Looking4Peace]

I just do not like the atheist view that religion should be abolished which i get from some people, even when i was not religious i didnt hold this hideaous attitude thank god, and i do not like how hes comparing all religions to be the same, just not something you do especially that its based on his opinion and not facts ( not hard facts anyway) i can come with a million conspiracy theories, doesnt mean i do it.

[Looking4Peace]

and for ur info athiest, i am very scientific as well, you do not even realize that science and Islam can coexist together unlike many other religions so stop comparing it to be the exact of Chrisitianity and Judaism. :thumbs_do


and theres nothing more i dislike is a forum troll who copies and pastes, i can do that too but choose to use my own words instead of being a copy and paste addict

[root]

just do not like the atheist view that religion should be abolished

I hate it when people generalise like this, it's as bad as thinking all muslims are terrorists...............

[Looking4Peace]

I didnt say all my dad is atheist but he has repsect for others, and did u not read when i said i was not religious at one point in time even considered myself atheiest for a short while but i did not have this attitude that many have that all religious people are barbaric ancient thinking morons like we arent capable of understanding science as well, well i sure do im a psy major and biology minor and have taking countless anthropolgy classes as well out of interest and aced everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He just holds that you guys must be dumb for being religious attitude and i dont like it

[Abdul Fattah]

There’s certainly a lot said in that video, and a lot to be said about it. But it certainly did not shook my faith, far from it. I’ll try to comment on most subject raised, obviously I’ll have missed out some of the comments out of a 1:50 long documentary. So if there’s any points you feel like discussing please do not hesitate to bring them. Also my quotations are not perbatum, I quickly typed the gist of important issues in a doc while listening, I’m not going to take the time to reproduce them exactly, you are of course welcome to correct me shoul I have twisted some of the words.

symbolism and worshiping thunder and sun
First of all let me point out there is no symbolism in Islam (as far as I know of). The holy grail does not exist. There’s no sun-references and such. Also note that they are very quick to draw conclusions. Some people worshipped false deity’s in the past -> therefore all worship is false.

Soul cultivating can only by done by actions not by knowledge. It’s not what you know what you do.

This verse stood out somewhat, because later in the documentary they claim the complete opposite, I suppose they meant it sarcastically the first time. However Islam will tell you both are important, or like romans said: mens sana in corpus sana.

All Religions claim to be the only true religion, so only one can be true, so all others are false. so all other people are others sinners? Hell for eternity just because one didn't believe?

Throughout history nobody has returned from the death therefore preparation for the afterlife is a waste of time.

Obviously nobody has, but that deosn’t contradict religion, as religion states there is no coming back to this world. The argument is absurd. Just because something has not occurred (we have not already died) does not mean we don’t have to prepare.

And since we don't know which religion is true, how can we truly prepare for an entirely unknown situation?

Well if you believe you DO know which religion is true. You were given common sense why forsake it? Believing by definition means to accept as true without proof. Which religion is “true”? Well which one makes sense?

Man slaughtered and mutilated because of belief, but doesn't it teach love?

Here the speaker contradicts himself. He uses the argument of violent people to disproof belief, but at the same time admits that belief preaches something else. Which one is the wrongdoer, when it is man who abuses religion to justify his evil acts?

Country's with a lot of religion lot of crime, and vice versa.

I tend not to believe that? Shall we compare graphs? I think we’ll discover the exact opposite is true. In general, religion holds the evil of man back.

Religion offers temporary explanations to issues like: the meaning of life, death, infinite life. But God had to be created to answer these questions.

The answers Islam gave 1400 years ago are still standing, so they are not that “temporary”. And what’s wrong with assuming the answers were created because of God rather then the other way around?

[quote]Can you imagine to run your business by a manual written ages ago, then translated a whole bunch of time? [quote]
Well the Qur’an has stayed original over time. And today Islam is still perfectly implemental and sees no need to “adapt” to new times. Let me counter the question: Can you imagine that in order to operate a machine; you consult a manual other then the manufacture’s manual? Who is better to guide your life then your own creator?

In the dark ages earth was flat, and you are a heretic if you state otherwise.

In Islam we have always believed in scientifically accurate notions.

Religious leaders don't want you to think but follow blindly like soldiers, and the similarity continues as religion also sets out to destroy.

Islam invites to question, research and discover. As knowledge can only bring us closer to the truth.


Similar storys:
I was already familiar with the ancient Egypt believes, but the given description is inaccurate. The gods were related to the flood, but there’s really no similarities with Noah’s flooding. Which b.t.w. could very well have been the filling of the black sea who used to be a lake only half the size, 50 meters deeper, and filled in about a week. As for the references to baptism, baptism does not exist in Islam. As for the name, “argha noa”. I’ve tried to look it up, but the only reference I found were based on that movie. I’m not saying that it is false just because I didn’t find evidence, but I’ll need a lil‘ bit more then there mentioning to believe it.

http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&q=...G=Zoeken&meta=

Not a single thing that cannot be traced back to other previous religions.

That’s a bold statement. There’s numerous things from religion that were previously unprecedented. Of course there have been many prophets (according to Islam, 100 000), so it’s possible to find traces of similar rulings and revelations. But just because one prophet says the same as another doesn’t mean that one copied from the other, if they are both prophets in eth same religion.

A pharaoh changed the Egyptian faith from worshipping many gods to worshipping one God RA amen-ra. Pharaoh was the incarnation of god, who ruled for god on earth

It was never a monotheistic religion Amon-ra was the supreme God, something like Zeus having power over the other Roman Gods. There is no similarity between hours and jezus apart from the similar sounding name. The most well known name is the Greek Horus, representing the Egyptian Heru/Har, which is the basic element in most of the other names of Horus. Horus was so important that the Eye of Horus became an important Egyptian symbol of power. He had a man's body and a hawk's head. He only had one eye because after Osiris was murdered by his brother Seth, Horus fought with Seth for the throne of Egypt. In this battle Horus lost one of his eyes and later this became a sign of protection in Egypt. The pharaoh was not an incarnation of God, all the pharaoh’s (plural) were sons of God (halfgods). they were sent as intermediate between people and Gods. As for the simular ending of prayer. It is already mentioned in another topic that Amen has a difrent meaning in Hebrew, to which you replied it comes from the egyptian language none-the less. However that doesn't mean anything. Lets say tomorow a new religion origenates in arabia and they have a deity which they call Allah, then that doesn't mean that that new religion is inspired by islam. Allah means God, arabic christians call there God Allah. they'd only adapt the terminology because they use the same language. SImular, just because the hebrew word is derived from Ra, doesn't mean that any religion which uses that word is therefor derived from the religion of RA.

Then there’s a whole list of alleged similarities with other Gnostic stories, lets’ take a look at them:

*Lamb of god - dalai lama (deus lama) this religion originated around the year 1400A.D. How can this have been an influence? It’s more likely the other way around wouldn’t you agree? A.c.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_lama
*Thulis ->search turned out blank
*Coite -> search turned out blank
*Thammuz -> Babylonian God, not a son of god no analogy with Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz
*Atys -> not son of a god, son a of a king. Are all princes a reference to Jesus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atys_father_of_Lydus
*Hesus only link is the similar name, a simple coincidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesus
*Bali is an ancient king who opposed the 5th incarnation of vishnu, no similarity.
*Indra is the chief deity of the Rig-Veda, and the god of weather and war, and Lord of Svargaloka in Hinduism. no parallelism.
*Iao Sabaoth is applied together or seperately as Gnostic archons; the Gnostic Iao is associated with both Abraxas and the seven headed dragon; he is sometimes referred to as the "Father of Lies.
*Mitra has again no simularities , but zoroastrism does carry traces of this deity, and there we see simular aspects like trinity. But there’s no indication Mitra has anything to do with that.
*Sakia -> search turned out blank
*Alceste was a princess in Greek mythology, Alcestis ("might of the home") was known for her love for her husband. Their story was popularised in Euripides's tragedy Alcestis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis
*Quexaicote was Mexican God, I didn’t even search this one. The ancient tribes in America didn’t have ships, only small canoes, they were isolated from other continents, and therefore couldn’t have influenced Christianity.
Prometheus the human who stole the fire from the Gods, again no similarity.
*Wittoba was another incarnation of Vishnu, the avatar named Wittoba or Vithoba ... This incarnation of Vishnu or CRISTNA is called Wittoba or Ballaji
*Quirinus a god in the polytheistic Roman mythology. No similarities.
*Chrisna -> here there actually are some good example of similarities. Probably the reason why they focussed on this one rather then the other examples. However most references are slightly changed and taken out of context to accentuate the similarity, this to hide the fact that it’s a stretch.

Egyptian symbolism
It is true that the western, Christian society has many symbols who come from the Egyptian myths. However there’s a reason for that. As Christianity spread, in order to easely impose it’s doctrine to the areas it conquered it adapted some of the symbols of the places so it would be easyer for people to accept. 25 December for example is a holiday they made up to compensate for the Celts who celebrated the shortest day of the year on that day; the decorating of a tree is a tradition that comes from then. The reason the put lil' chapels on crosroads in forests is an adaptation of teh roman mythology who thought forrests-nymphs attacked on crosroads. So the Romans put certain statues there to prevent them from attacking. this was a very common thing in the early christianity to adapt to new cultures. The Shepard, the iron staff, all similar things. It’s not that Christianity is born out of these influences, Christianity assimilated to these other cultures, but the original pure religion as thought by Jesus didn’t have all the se symbols and references.

Then the freemasons. As Christianity came to Egypt, a small sect was created that had both Christian and ancient Egyptian concepts combined. This sect was first allowed in Christianity but in the dark ages when Christianity started with it’s crusade this was labelled heretic ,and this sect had to flee underground, it is the beginning of the freemasons. And there were many influential people throughout history that were a member of this sect, and who in honour of it, placed references. The dollar bill, the obelisk in Washington, the pyramid in front of the Louvre in France, the obelisk a couple meters away from it.

The zodiac in the Bible.
It could be that there are actually references to astronomy in the bible, since Christianity adapted many concepts from other cultures, however a lot of the references seemed far fetched and totally ripped out of context. Is it that peculiar that there’s a story of a man wearing a pitcher? I mean it’s not like the pitcher is the aquarius’ copyright. If I wear a pitcher does that mean I believe in astrology to? The story wasn’t even about “the end of times”
The word “age “ can have many meanings.


Origine of names
There’s more to etymology then cutting it up in syllables and looking to anything that looks familiar.
*Israel:
O.E., "the Jewish people," from L. Israel, from Gk., from Heb. yisra'el "he that striveth with God" (Gen. xxxii.28), symbolic proper name conferred on Jacob and extended to his descendants, from sara "he fought, contended" + El "God." As an independent Jewish state in the country formerly called Palestine, it is attested from 1948. Citizens of it are called Israelis; the ancient people are Israelites (1382).
*Solomon:
masc. proper name, Biblical name of David's son, king of Judah and Israel and wisest of all men, from Gk. Solomon, from Heb. Sh'lomoh, from shelomo "peaceful," from shalom "peace." The Arabic form is Suleiman. The common medieval form was Salomon (Vulgate, Tyndale, Douai); Solomon was used in Geneva Bible and KJV. Used allusively for "a wise ruler" since 1554.
*Jonah:
masc. proper name, biblical prophet, from L.L. Jonas, from Gk. Ionas, from Heb. Yonah, lit. "dove, pigeon."

Mana is actually a mushroom since the bible says it's "a small round thing", and the high priest’s headdress looks like a mushroom, so mana must be a mushroom right?

Euhm, ok, were the chewing some while coming up with this?

Older religions also has similar prophets who received law from a mountain.

Yes Like I said there have been 100 000 prophets.

Holy mountain = pyramid?

stretching it again.

why are the death sea scrolls so controversial?

Because they show how much they have they have diverted from their original religion.

Every religion has personified that deity.

Islam hasn’t. All we know about Allah are his 99 attributes (most just, most mercifull, without beginning, all powerfull, and the list goes on…)

Does doing religious deeds cultivate the soul?

Yes all rules have benefit both in this life as in the next. Not as a standard, but as a mercy of Allah, he could just as well have set rules that do not benefit us to test our obedience.

A spiritual man does not do what we witness done under the guise of religion.

The same contradiction as before, they acknowledge that it is only mankind who does this under the guise of religion, rather then religion itself causing this, yet in the same time they blame religion for it.

Finally one of the last topics is nothing new for us, the bible has indeed been changed and influenced to many times across history, it has indeed lost his reliability.

[Abdul Fattah]

Suggestion:
Maybe the mods could merge this thread with:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ers-islam.html
Which talks about the same thing.
Two thread about the same topic can create confusing discussions.

[The Athiest]

Steve

Thank you for the great feedback on the video. It will take me some time to write a reply so I just wanted to say thank you.

[The Athiest]

Are you kidding?
Where did you cut and paste that lot???
Give me a year or two, and I might try to read it all.

Don't make me regret I said we should hear you out! ;D

Peace.

I did cut and paste alot of it because I wrote it for a movie I am working on and I did not have a bunch of time to finnish it.

This is how I view the world as an Atheist:

We all are products of our envrionment and in most cases nothing more.

One bourn in the US will be a Christian.
One bourn in China will be a Buddist.
One bourn in Saudi Arabia will be Islam.
One bourn in India will be Hindu.

As childeren most do not have a choice. After puberty it is hard or impossible for one to be a free thinker free of Religion.

I know I am not supposed to post links however maby this one time.

This is Dr. Dawkins of Oxford University and I share his views.

Part one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PqdC...s%20of%20faith

Part two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2vm...search=atheism

Part three
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGeL1...search=atheism

They are only 10 or 15 minutes long.

[Looking4Peace]

you think that is always true and your generalizing, actually a good percentage of china is christian now, india is a mix of hindu, islam, jainism, buddhism, shikism and some christianity, the untied states well hey we have em all, and i was born in the united states to white and hispanic catholic parents, so ehhhh try again

[Looking4Peace]

wow, i just looked back on this post and i been mean, sorry, very moody today atheist

[north_malaysian]

What the origin of religion has to do with topic "People of Islam"?

[The Athiest]

He just holds that you guys must be dumb for being religious attitude and i dont like it

I mean no disrespect and appoligise if I have upset you.

Religion has its place and purpose in the first century AD however man has discovered a few things since then.

It is your choice to believe pias myth. Most do it out of fear of their Religious faith.

Everything changes no matter how bad you want it not to change it will.

This is a fact and someday we as humans will be able to overcome our religious predjedous.

We are all Brothers and Sisters, If you ask what race I belong to, I will tell you I belong to the Human Race.

We make mistakes and nothing is perfect, not Science or Religion.

The Athiest

[Looking4Peace]

I mean no disrespect and appoligise if I have upset you.

Religion has its place and purpose in the first century AD however man has discovered a few things since then.

It is your choice to believe pias myth. Most do it out of fear of their Religious faith.

Everything changes no matter how bad you want it not to change it will.

This is a fact and someday we as humans will be able to overcome our religious predjedous.

We are all Brothers and Sisters, If you ask what race I belong to, I will tell you I belong to the Human Race.

We make mistakes and nothing is perfect, not Science or Religion.

The Athiest

yes religion and science both have its place, as Muslims we can have both, its not anti- science the way Christianity is, that is what i meant by stop saying it is the same, similar but not a carbon copy in no way. And some things in science are not clear proof either, much theory with some evidence, thats something every atheist needs to think about as well, life is not so simple and black and white no matter what ones beliefs are.
:)

sorry if i offended you in anyway before with my ranting moments

[The Athiest]

What the origin of religion has to do with topic "People of Islam"?

I addressed The People of Islam because as an Athiest I believe it is helpfull to study history to understand why things are what they are. Everything you can experience in everyday life has one thing. History.

The Athiest

[The Athiest]

Crystal4Peace

Thank you

From what I understand about Islam they were the leaders in Science in around the 14th Century. Islam was the best in educating their people and they even took in Christian Childern to teach them Science.

Then the Christians were afraid they were inferier to Islam and started the crucades. This was nothing more than the murder of inocent people in the name of God. This makes me sad and for that reason amd many others I am frustrated that I live in a country with all these Insane Christans and they controll my Country and they do not stand for the moral I believe in.

George Bush and his Christian agenda makes me want to move to New Zeland.

Atheist are few and not many people understand we are in most cases moral peace loving people.

[Looking4Peace]

Crystal4Peace

Thank you

From what I understand about Islam they were the leaders in Science in around the 14th Century. Islam was the best in educating their people and they even took in Christian Childern to teach them Science.

Then the Christians were afraid they were inferier to Islam and started the crucades. This was nothing more than the murder of inocent people in the name of God. This makes me sad and for that reason amd many others I am frustrated that I live in a country with all these Insane Christans and they controll my Country and they do not stand for the moral I believe in.

George Bush and his Christian agenda makes me want to move to New Zeland.

Atheist are few and not many people understand we are in most cases moral peace loving people.

You very welcome and yes i know that alot of atheists are peaceful and humanitarian but i have come across some mean ones, but i have come across mean people from every belief and culture.

[duskiness]

Lol - The Atheist i bet that USA Constitution is shorter than your post...
n.

[north_malaysian]

I addressed The People of Islam because as an Athiest I believe it is helpfull to study history to understand why things are what they are. Everything you can experience in everyday life has one thing. History.

The Athiest

What the differences between 'Atheist' and 'Athiest'?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Athiest; and welcome to the forum,

Atheist are few and not many people understand we are in most cases moral peace loving people

But why should differences in beliefs cause so much conflict, how do people with diverse beliefs live in peace with each other?

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

[north_malaysian]

Greetings and peace be with you Athiest; and welcome to the forum,



But why should differences in beliefs cause so much conflict, how do people with diverse beliefs live in peace with each other?

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

I have an Atheist friend (he's ex Muslim) he's so anti-Islam. Does people became Atheist because God dont answer their prayer?

[Abdul Fattah]

This is how I view the world as an Atheist:
We all are products of our envrionment and in most cases nothing more.
One bourn in the US will be a Christian.
One bourn in China will be a Buddist.
One bourn in Saudi Arabia will be Islam.
One bourn in India will be Hindu.

My father was an atheist my mother is christian. I consider myself an atheist up to a year ago. And I was atheistic as belief, not out of lack of an alternative. Yet through gaining knowledge ...

Religion has its place and purpose in the first century AD however man has discovered a few things since then.

Yes mankind has, and so far, all these discoveries only confirm what Islam says all along. The only contreversial theory is evolution. Personally I do'nt believe in it, but ID is also implementable in Islam. So either way, science does not contradict Islam.

It is your choice to believe pias myth. Most do it out of fear of their Religious faith.

I'd doubt that. Personally I believe out of being convinced. Because it makes sense. It's extremely risky to state what othe rpeopel's motivations are. If you are really intrested I suggest you inquire many believers and see what they give as motivation.

Thank you for the great feedback on the video. It will take me some time to write a reply so I just wanted to say thank you.

You're welcome. It took me quite some time to vieuw the doc, write notes, and then compose a post, so I am happy that you apreciate it.
And do take your time, there's no hurry here. :thankyou:

[muslim_friend]

Atheist are few and not many people understand we are in most cases moral peace loving people.

But Atheists themselves implement these moral values in their daily lives, the ones that are present in some religious scriptures, don't they? So don't you think Atheists should feel indebted to religion?

[root]

But Atheists themselves implement these moral values in their daily lives, the ones that are present in some religious scriptures, don't they? So don't you think Atheists should feel indebted to religion?

I definately agree, religion brought us great civilizations and the very foundation of humanity if you ask me.

[The Athiest]

What the differences between 'Atheist' and 'Athiest'?

Have you herd of dislexia?

I have it, my spelling could use some help also.

[The Athiest]

Greetings and peace be with you Athiest; and welcome to the forum,

But why should differences in beliefs cause so much conflict, how do people with diverse beliefs live in peace with each other?

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

Only one thing can help us CHANGE.

What happens is people do not understand what they do not understand. In some cases we fear what we do not understand.

I believe if in schools we could teach all the world Religions and their history of origin and edit violent parts of text out and teach children about Science without peer pressure, could be the answer. However I do not see this ever happening. There is just to much social pressure in most areas.

I feel the answer will come by way of communication. The awesome ability for people to talk to each other. The internet.

We are social creatures and we love to make friends and experience new things. Today's world is the building mega cities where so much pressure on the individual to work long hours and raise a family have created very segregated life styles. I have lived in several cities of 5 million plus and have never been so lonely. Now I live in a small town and have great fellowship with the community. I believe this is the result of a slower pace of life. Time to enjoy nature and make new friends.

The Atheist

[The Athiest]

I have an Atheist friend (he's ex Muslim) he's so anti-Islam. Does people became Atheist because God dont answer their prayer?

In this photo

http://www.islamicboard.com/attachme...1&d=1150479797

the tallest boy is my uncle Lance. He died in my arms of an asthma attack. He was 16 and I was 12 I loved him with all my hart, he was more like my brother than my uncle. That night I prayed and prayed for him to live and not to die. Now that I have a better understanding of Nature I am able to accept Lance's death. If I thought anyone like a God were responsible in the least way, I could never forgive that person or God. Until that day I wore a cross and was baptized as a Christian. After that day in 1972 I threw my cross in the trash and I will never be religious again.

I am an inventor and have a background in physics and chemistry. I love science because it is learning of things that are cool and exciting with hands a hands on experience. Science has thought me why things are what they are. Science will not answer questions about what happens to us after we die and I am comfortable living with the mystery. I do not have a need to know everything.

Like if someone goes to the bathroom I think it better if I do not know what they did in there. Although I might have knowledge of what people do in the bathroom, I feel better if they do not share what they did in the bathroom with me.

The Atheist

[Link]

Athiest, can I ask you why are you not agnostic (don't know if God exists or not)?

If your athiest, it means you claim to know God doesn't exist, can you prove this (atleast to yourself)?

I am a monothiest and I believe I can prove God exists and is one(if not to you, atleast to others and myself)

[The Athiest]

So don't you think Atheists should feel indebted to religion?

I can only speak for myself as one Atheist.

I am very thankful and indebted to religion, without it the early times of civilization would have been kayos and anarchie.

I am glad you brought this up, Religion in my view was the law and government of early civilizations. They created such a dynamic and powerful Governing entity (Religion) that it still governs many civilizations to this day.

Their only mistake in my opinion is they made it stagnate (without change) not allowing for change to meet the future needs of the followers and change with increased knowledge of man.

It is like an automobile.

The model T Ford was a great car. It was better than any horse and buggy could ever be. Yet if Henry Ford refused to change his product to make it better there would be no Ford automobiles today.

Religion exists to this day because it uses fear and faith for its survival. These are two of the strongest human emotions. This is good evidence that the creators of Religious faith were very intelligent, this is a good example of the wise mans ability to control the man of brute force.

The Atheist

[Abdul Fattah]

I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. It must have been a really traumatising expieriance. and I understand when you say:

If I thought anyone like a God were responsible in the least way, I could never forgive that person or God.

I understand it, because that's a natural emotional response. However, not all emttional responses are logical.

[The Athiest]

Athiest, can I ask you why are you not agnostic (don't know if God exists or not)?

If your athiest, it means you claim to know God doesn't exist, can you prove this (atleast to yourself)?

I am a monothiest and I believe I can prove God exists and is one(if not to you, atleast to others and myself)

I have no need to prove God doesn't exist. All I need to know is that all Gods are man made.

Also I find it not necessary to be agnostic because if I had to claim a belief it would be modern science and science has it's own problems with fundamentalism.

As Albert Einstein said, "Science and Religion are branches of the same tree" they are an attempt to answer our questions.

Therefore I choose the dynamic faith in Science instead of a stagnate Religion.

The hardest thing anyone can do, is live with a belief that we do not know all the answers. That is why I am a minority I do not know all the answers. I only know what I have the ability to understand what is my Reality. Reality is not easy and it is not the same for everyone.

Reality and quantum physics are amazing, they are based on our beliefs and we create our own Reality out of what we believe to be true.

Let me give you an example:

If someone believes they are ill, they will become ill.

The brain can not tell the difference between what the eyes see and what the brain remembers. We store imagery in our brains and depending on what we believe to be true, in most cases it will become our Reality. So If a Religious person believes that there is a God, Heven, Hell, then it may not materialize in the physical world of existance, however it may become real in the persons dreams and after death experience.

I believe our mind effects our dreams and our after death experience.

The Atheist

[Woodrow]

I can only speak for myself as one Atheist.

I am very thankful and indebted to religion, without it the early times of civilization would have been kayos and anarchie.

I am glad you brought this up, Religion in my view was the law and government of early civilizations. They created such a dynamic and powerful Governing entity (Religion) that it still governs many civilizations to this day.

Their only mistake in my opinion is they made it stagnate (without change) not allowing for change to meet the future needs of the followers and change with increased knowledge of man.

It is my understanding that you are a scientist. Does it not seem that all the laws of physics have stagnated then. they have not changed in Billions of years. Perhaps, we live with them and adapt our lives to them and use them to our benefit. Perhaps, one day we will all learn that the Laws of Allah(swt) are still the laws of Allah(swt), be it called religion or physics.

It is like an automobile.

The model T Ford was a great car. It was better than any horse and buggy could ever be. Yet if Henry Ford refused to change his product to make it better there would be no Ford automobiles today.

The car concept did not change. We just learned how to live with the most efficient method of living with it. a car is basicaly a means of getting people from point A to point B. It is still the same.

Religion exists to this day because it uses fear and faith for its survival. These are two of the strongest human emotions. This is good evidence that the creators of Religious faith were very intelligent, this is a good example of the wise mans ability to control the man of brute force.

Force and fear is a very poor ineffective method of controlling people. If people were religious for either of those reasons religion never would have lasted. Look at how rapidly governments get overthrow, when that is the means of keeping the populace under control. for religion to last, there has to be sufficient people experiencing the benefit of it, for it to be passed on from generation to generation. Look at how fast the pagan beliefs have come and gone. The Abrahamic beliefs (Jew, Christian, Islam) have existed since recorded history. Judaism was very strong. When the people lost the idea Allah(swt) sent Isa(pbuh) to restore it. When Christianity lost the path it was restored through Mohammad(pbuh). Islam has remained unchanged since the begining of mankind. there has never been any compulsion involved, except during misguided episodic times when people attempted to use it to promote their own agendas.

The Atheist

The red are my replies.

[Link]

Well, did you hear the end of this tape, the old guy said he doesn't believe in religions but he believes in God, he doesn't want to personify God like Christians with trinity and the many other religions who personified God, and he believes science now proves the Creator and the scientist, the many physicist are the ones he contacted and proved this to him, so this is not due to myths, imagination, it's due to his logical thinking and science today

[Link]

Albert Eistein believed in God and religion btw

[duskiness]

Hi The Atheist!

I disagree with this statement about science & religion being two branches. Faith -as i see it- starts where sience ends. With science one can walk to the end of Universe. but if You want to make one more step, you can do it only with faith.

And faith doesn't bring all the answers. Faith & doubt always come together.

"If someone believes they are ill, they will become ill." and if they belive they are health, will they really be??

You combine faith with fear. something like "You believe because of fear"?
I have seen that if there is a way to fight fear it's faith.
My parents are both atheists. I was one myself. Lol - it seems we went the same road but in different directions.
I used to think that religion is "opium for people" (Marx).
But when i needed help, people with faith were the only one i could lean on.
I know it doesn't change anything for You.

take care.
n.

[Zohair]

It is important to realize that videos like these are usually poking and critisizing christianity and most religions. I stress the word "most". and most of the people who make videos like that believe in a god.

I don't want to be rude or anything, but if you don't believe in a god, it is quite...not very smart (to put it nicely). to believe that the universe came on its own is sheer...not very smart (to put it nicely).

Islam one of the only religions that has not changed since the day it originated. most other religions have been changed, and new things have been put into its doctrine, but Islam has stayed the same for the past 1400 years. it is one of the only religions that has not been affected from other historical figures as people have pointed out on this thread. i.e that egyptian god, who's name was Amen or something like that.

I challenge any person here to bring one part of islamic theology that was based on things outside of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad SAW. some of islamic theology may be similar to other religions, i.e judaism and christianity. because we believe in all the prophets before the prophet Muhammad SAW, but we believe the prophets of past were only meant for their particular time period. Muhammad SAW is meant for all of humanity.

I remember going to an islamic course on islamic theology, and the teacher said not to waste more than 5 minutes debating with an aethiest because of the belief that they possess that there is no god, which is...not very smart (to put it nicely) so I will take his advice. :giggling:

[wilberhum]

Islam one of the only religions that has not changed since the day it originated
What a bazaar statement. There are many different sects in Islam.

[The Athiest]

Greetings Duskiness

You combine faith with fear. something like "You believe because of fear"? .

Some Religions offer damnation for people who do not follow the scripture.

But when i needed help, people with faith were the only one i could lean on.

Most Religious people are good people and love to help others. Athiest are few and lack a formal community.

I know it doesn't change anything for You.

Do not we all change?

The Atheist

[Skillganon]

Islam one of the only religions that has not changed since the day it originated
What a bazaar statement. There are many different sects in Islam.

Your statement is a misnomer.

Islam has not changed, but their is many sect's.

Many sect's does not mean Islam has changed. It only mean's some are not following Islam as it has been laid down, but following their own desires by innovation. We call it Bidah.
The original teaching and message is theire, and Majority follow's that.

We know the their will be sect's meaning offshoot from Islam. It is mentioned their will be 73 sect's and only one will go to jannah.

[Muezzin]

What a bazaar statement.

Surely you mean 'What a bizarre statement'.

A bazaar statement would sound something like 'Two boxes of melons, ten dinar!' :p

[The Athiest]

Albert Eistein believed in God and religion btw

Link

You might want to read these words from AE.


It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954) From Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. (Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. (Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein) Following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.


The Atheist

[Woodrow]

Islam one of the only religions that has not changed since the day it originated
What a bazaar statement. There are many different sects in Islam.

The concept of unity in Islam differs considerably from that of organized religions. The named sects are not the same as seperate ideologies or denominations. Islam is unchangable. Islam is the Submission to God. That is all the name means. A person who submits to God is a Muslim. A person can be Muslim, without ever being within a thousand miles of a Mosque or even knowing any other Muslims.

It is more closely like being a member of an organization and that name becomes synonomous with Muslim to non-Muslims. It is more closely like a United States Christian can be a Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Independant, Undeclared etc. and then can be a Mason, Knight of Columbus, etc. and then can add on thing like being a Kiwanis, Shriner, Elk, etc.

[wilberhum]

Yes, I meant bizarre, I did not mean a street market.

Islam has not changed, but their is many sect's.

So Islam has not changed, there are just multiple interpretations.
If that makes sense to you, then that is OK.
But for me, oh well, that’s of no importance.

[The Athiest]

The car concept did not change. We just learned how to live with the most efficient method of living with it. a car is basicaly a means of getting people from point A to point B. It is still the same.

Yes the car is for the most part the same. However they rewrote the instruction/owners manual.

The Atheist

[Idris]

What I will like to ask is can atheists be ethical?

[Zohair]

listen what I am saying is that, the proper Islam, which is rid of any innovation by anyone else, is the exact same Islam that was practiced by muhammad SAW, these other "sects" are not following what Prophet Muhammad SAW followed.

and what I mean is that, no matter how much they differ on little things (how much the different sects differ) the theology is the same, that there is no god. because it is so simple, even a baby can understand it.

[Link]

'There is no god but the one true God' you mean, right?

[Link]

What I will like to ask is can atheists be ethical?

I think they can, because being ethical is one's nature (fitra), I know an athiest that is very kind, nice, ethical..

[Zohair]

'There is no god but the one true God' you mean, right?

yeah lol, I made a biggg mistake, sorry brother

La ilaha ilallah

[The Athiest]

I think they can, because being ethical is one's nature (fitra), I know an athiest that is very kind, nice, ethical..

Link

Check out this guy Spinosa that AE was talking about.

http://www.friesian.com/spinoza.htm

We find the answer to this question in the realization that Spinoza is not entirely a modern thinker and that his God in fact has antecedents in the Middle Ages. It is too easy to get carried away with the evident conformity of Spinoza's system to the requirements of science and overlook the foot that it still has planted firmly in Mediaeval Jewish mysticism. Mediaeval Jewish philosophy, in fact, was closely allied to the Neoplatonic philosophical tradition of Late Antiquity, as this had been taken up and developed during the intellectual flowering of Islâm in the 9th century. The details of Spinoza's metaphysics, ironically but significantly, share much more with Islâmic theology that with that of either Judaism or Christianity. It is not clear that Spinoza was even aware of this (or that "Benedict" would be a better translation of Muh.ammad, "Praised," than of "Baruch"), but it could even be said to be the result of a similar emphasis on the uniqueness and power of God.

Mediaeval Jewish philosophy reached its height in Spain with Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) and Moses Nahmanides (1194-1270), as Mediaeval Jewish mysticism reached its height with the Zohar of the Spanish Jew Moses ben Shem Tov. Although more rationalistic than Nahmanides, Maimonides, one of the greatest philosophers of the Middle Ages, was nevertheless in the Neoplatonic tradition that had originally mixed both considerable rationalism and mysticism, i.e. the belief in the possibility of personal knowledge, even union, with God and the notion that "religious" truths are often really rational truths packaged in a way comprehensible to the masses. Such views are the most plainly and accessibly stated in Lenn Goodman's translation of the book of the Spanish Islâmic philosopher Ibn Tufayl, Hayy Ibn Yaqzan. Islâmic philosophers eventually got in trouble for such ideas. Jewish philosophers were less likely to get in trouble with the authorities, until, that is, Spinoza.

We can gather how this works in Spinoza by examing the details of his metaphysics, as found in Book I of his postumously published Ethics. The fundamental thing to keep in mind when thinking about Spinoza is one simple, striking, and paradoxical proposition: God is the only thing that exists. Although a relatively unfamiliar notion in Western philosophy and religion, this is a venerable position in India, and Spinoza's theory can be classified as a version of "qualified Advaita Vedânta," where everything that we ordinarily think of as existing, does exist as a part of God. It is also noteworthy that the Jewish-Islâmic Mediaeval mystical tradition also approached this. L.H. Grunebaum says of the Sufis, the Islamic mystics, "The mere attribution of reality to any entity besides the One is polytheism" [Medieval Islam, University of Chicago, 1946, 1969, p. 133].

[SirZubair]

Crystal4Peace
George Bush and his Christian agenda makes me want to move to New Zeland.

....We dont need anymore Trolls...the LOTR fever is OVER ! ;D By the way,welcome to the Forum.

[Link]

God is the only absolute existence means only God exists on his own, and always existed, while everything else came into being by his command and exists by his permission and if God willed, he could cause it all to dissapear, thus they don't have a real existence on their own and are really shadow beings that exist only due to the real absolute living who exists in the absolute sense

I think every monothiest would come to this conclusion, and it's not a just a sufi or kabala (jewish mysticism) or indian thought.

I recomend this book http://www.--------------/philosophy/ , this deals with today's science aswell and it shows conclusive logical proofs of God's existance

[duskiness]

What I will like to ask is can atheists be ethical?

Yes. Of cours they can.
But i bet it's just the begining of Your questions. Am I right?
n.

[glo]

But i bet it's just the begining of Your questions. Am I right?
n.

You are too young to be getting cynical, duskiness! :giggling: :giggling:

[duskiness]

Cynical You say....?
You're - like usual- right.

IDRIS: "But i bet it's just the begining of Your questions. Am I right?" - sorry, completely pointless.

n.

[The Athiest]

....We dont need anymore Trolls...the LOTR fever is OVER ! ;D By the way,welcome to the Forum.

That's funny.

You also do not need any more sheep.:giggling:

I would love to live there, It is so beautiful.

The Atheist

[The Athiest]

God is the only absolute existence means only God exists on his own, and always existed, while everything else came into being by his command and exists by his permission and if God willed, he could cause it all to dissapear, thus they don't have a real existence on their own and are really shadow beings that exist only due to the real absolute living who exists in the absolute sense

I think every monothiest would come to this conclusion, and it's not a just a sufi or kabala (jewish mysticism) or indian thought.

I recomend this book http://www.--------------/philosophy/ , this deals with today's science aswell and it shows conclusive logical proofs of God's existance

Thanks for the book Link.

I will read it, I have always wanted to read a book about Islam philosophy.

The Atheist

[cihad]

not trying to be rude or anything but are you (athiest)english speaking?
because i don't always seem to understand what you are saying.

[The Athiest]

not trying to be rude or anything but are you (athiest)english speaking?
because i don't always seem to understand what you are saying.

Yes I speek english, yet sometimes I type to fast.

BTW I like your Avatar.

The Athiest

[glo]

What I will like to ask is can atheists be ethical?

Of course atheists can be ethical!

This is a definition of 'ethics' as I found it in www.dictionary.com:
"The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy"

As you see, ethics are not necessarily dependent on religious teachings and principles, although they can be.

My atheist husband is one of the most caring, loving, helpful and charitable people I know, and he has high moral and ethical standards. :statisfie

He would say (rightly or wrongly) that his ethical choices are more meaningful because they are not based on religious teachings. It means that he does things solely because he is convinced it is the right way - not for any other reason, such as a the approval of a deity, a reward in the after-life or the escape from eternal punishment ...

Food for thought ... or so I think!
As followers of our respective religions we should ask ourselves once in a while what motivates us to behave in certain ways ...

peace.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,
For an enlightening discussion on the moral implications of atheism please refer to:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...s-atheism.html

Regards

[bint_muhammed]

Why do you think he is a forum troll, trying to turn people away?
He clearly comes with an atheist message - that's his right. We do welcome people a different faiths and none, don't we?? :?

Sometimes people have different views to our own. That can be tought to deal with - especially if those people are knowledgeable and articulate in their argument! :rollseyes
No reason to try and talk badly about them, though, if you ask me.

Th Athiest is new here. Let's welcome him and hear him out. :)

Peace.

i agree with glo, we should let every1 hav their say