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Idris
06-18-2006, 10:48 AM
I think it would be safe to say that many Christians who accept the doctrine of the Trinity, also remain confused and even those who have a deeper understanding of it, will admit that they do not understand it completely when challenged. The normal answer is that the Trinity is hard to understand because God is beyond our thinking.

I have also found out that a lot of people believe in 2 types of Trinity Doctrine. Some believe that God is one being that shows himself in 3 different ways like water shows itself in the form of ice, steam and liquid, others believe that the Trinity is made up of 3 distinct personalities and these 3 are in complete unity in love and purpose. This last explanation is probably the most common.

Now I guess is a good time to explain the Trinity doctrine( IF I can ).:X

The Trinity basically says that there is one God.
The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
Hence God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
These three are one God. Each is co-equal and co-eternal.
God is described as a class or family, made up of the three personalities already mentioned.

This ancient diagram explains the Trinity quite well.

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duskiness
06-18-2006, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
Some believe that God is one being that shows himself in 3 different ways like water shows itself in the form of ice, steam and liquid
this theory is called "modalism" and was long, long, long ago declared heresy. But is often used to translate Trinity in more simple way ;)

apart from that -Idris: <clap, clap> simply great, and thx for posting :)
n.
Reply

Umar001
06-18-2006, 11:45 AM
Idris jus wondering, if you understand them to be co-equal does this mean that noone is of a higher status than the other, Like Father not of Son nor Son of Spirit and so on.

And jus wonderin if they all are kinda eternal as said why is one called son, i mean it indicates that he has had a beggining.

Thank you for your post and please be patient with me.
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Malaikah
06-18-2006, 11:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
others believe that the Trinity is made up of 3 distinct personalities and these 3 are in complete unity in love and purpose. This last explanation is probably the most common.
:sl:

Why does God even need to be in three parts? Whats the point? Is a God who is just plain one incapable of being perfect, so we need to split him into three parts in make him perfect?:? Its just so counterintuitive, makes no sense at all. :rollseyes
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Idris
06-18-2006, 02:29 PM
Have you ever been confused by the following scriptures.

1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ....
Or

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.
Or

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

What does it imply that no one has seen God. Haven’t countless people seen Jesus who is suppose to be God incarnate?
This does seem confusing but the word "God" in these verses are of course referring to the Father as the following scriptures will prove.

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us.

This next scripture would have to be one of the most ignored verses in the Bible, because it does not fit in with most peoples theology.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live


You cannot make this scripture say anything else without misquoting it. It is very straight forward and to the point. The amazing thing about this scripture is the fact that it is not isolated.
J
ames 2:19 (English-NIV)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again we see that the only True God is the Father, and Jesus Christ was sent by the only True God. Again you cannot make this scripture say anything else, it is self explanatory. John said that this truth is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
Reply

Umar001
06-18-2006, 02:32 PM
Im realy confused, is Idris provin or disprovin Trinity in the BIble?
Reply

Idris
06-18-2006, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Idris jus wondering, if you understand them to be co-equal does this mean that noone is of a higher status than the other, Like Father not of Son nor Son of Spirit and so on.

And jus wonderin if they all are kinda eternal as said why is one called son, i mean it indicates that he has had a beggining.

Thank you for your post and please be patient with me.

Err I am not Christian but from a From a Christian view he/she thinks so.
and same to cheese too ask a Christian
Reply

Umar001
06-18-2006, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
Err I am not Christian but from a From a Christian view he/she thinks so.
and same to cheese too ask a Christian

Whose the 'he/she' that thinks so?

Lol your confusing me so much
Reply

glo
06-18-2006, 03:23 PM
Thanks Idris.

You know, it is difficult to explain the concept of the trinity - especially to those who consider it to be in conflict with monotheism.
I will make sure to link any future queries with regards to the trinity to your post. :)

peace.
Reply

glo
06-18-2006, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Im realy confused, is Idris provin or disprovin Trinity in the BIble?
He is doing neither.
He is merely explaining it.
It's actually nice to hear a Muslim explain it - perhaps it makes it clearer to other Muslims.

I don't think Idris is trying to turn people away from Islam here ... :thankyou:

peace.
Reply

glo
06-18-2006, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

Why does God even need to be in three parts? Whats the point? Is a God who is just plain one incapable of being perfect, so we need to split him into three parts in make him perfect?:? Its just so counterintuitive, makes no sense at all. :rollseyes
Hi cheese

That seems like very strange questions to me indeed.
I mean, it's like asking 'What's the point in God?' or 'Why does God do what he does?' or 'Why is God at all?'

God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.
Is to question God in such a way not equivalent to trying to put yourself above God??
Surely that's not what Islam teaches?

Christians didn't invent the trinity, or thought it was a funky new way to look at God, or they wanted to 'be different' - they believe that's how God is!

Peace.:thankyou:
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
06-18-2006, 10:57 PM
:sl:

I think my brother Idris is just stating the belif of the Christains regarding the Trinity.


I believe the real question is this:X

format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
Have you ever been confused by the following scriptures.
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ....
Or

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.
Or

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

What does it imply that no one has seen God. Haven’t countless people seen Jesus who is suppose to be God incarnate?
This does seem confusing but the word "God" in these verses are of course referring to the Father as the following scriptures will prove.

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

So it is obvious that no one can see God, but only his son can reveal him to us.

This next scripture would have to be one of the most ignored verses in the Bible, because it does not fit in with most peoples theology.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live


You cannot make this scripture say anything else without misquoting it. It is very straight forward and to the point. The amazing thing about this scripture is the fact that it is not isolated.
J
ames 2:19 (English-NIV)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again we see that the only True God is the Father, and Jesus Christ was sent by the only True God. Again you cannot make this scripture say anything else, it is self explanatory. John said that this truth is eternal life.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
Insha Allah (God-Willing) it would be good if some of the christain members can refer to the above quotes and explain it...:rollseyes
Reply

Zohair
06-19-2006, 12:50 AM
great post by brother Idris (second one) that shows that the christian doctrine is not the trinity, but that god is one. I always wondered why there isn't a single unambigious statement referring to the trinity in the bible, and yet christians believe in it, aren't christians suppose to follow the Bible :rollseyes
Reply

Joe98
06-19-2006, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zohair
aren't christians suppose to follow the Bible :rollseyes
No.

Its like a spiritual guide. Its not a set of rules.
Reply

akr4m
06-19-2006, 01:18 AM
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
( Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #82)

:sl:

Greetings to all non - muslims

Just wanted to comment on that trinity diagram

The trinity diagram is not logical

The diagram is described:

Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

At the same time

Father does not = son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy sprit

And we know from the laws of logic

If A = B, B = C then A = C

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)
Reply

Joe98
06-19-2006, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by akr4m
...hence not logical

TO: akr4m
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful.

Agreed that it is not logical. And it remains the Christain belief.

But then faith is never logical!
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Malaikah
06-19-2006, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi cheese

That seems like very strange questions to me indeed.
I mean, it's like asking 'What's the point in God?' or 'Why does God do what he does?' or 'Why is God at all?'

God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.
Is to question God in such a way not equivalent to trying to put yourself above God??
Surely that's not what Islam teaches?

Christians didn't invent the trinity, or thought it was a funky new way to look at God, or they wanted to 'be different' - they believe that's how God is!

Peace.:thankyou:
Thanks for your reply Glo.

I personally dont understand why you think its a strange question. I just find it logical that the perfect 'being'- God, who created everything in existence from nothing, is not in need of having to be in three parts. If he is indeed perfect and capable of doing all the things i believe that he is able to, then it only makes sense that such a superior being would only need to be in one part, why three?

Isnt there an implication that if God is in three parts all the parts are dependent on each other, meaning that each part alone is incomplete and that God can only be complete if he is all three parts together, which further implies that one part of God alone is incapable of being fully functional...

I understand that there are somethings about God what we just have to accept- like how he can be paying attention to a million things instantaneously, or how he can be uncreated. We have to accept these things becuase they are out side our scope of understanding. But i personally dont think that the 'oneness' of God falls in to such a catergory.

I think we can both agree that there is one God- as this is something that both christianity and Islam teach- yet christians takes it further to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that? If the one God is perfect already why on earth would this God need to be split in to three toperform the function that One perfect God with out parts is capable of performing?

I hope you understand where im coming from Glo. :)
Take care
Reply

Joe98
06-19-2006, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that?

It goes to the heart of Christianity.

Jesus had a mother, Mary and a father, God

Jesues and God are one in the same.

Jesus is God and God is Jesus. They are 2 and yet they are 1.

Add to this the Holy Spirit who is all around us.

The Christain belief of the Holy Trinity and the Christain belief that God is the father of Jesus are one belief.

The 2 beliefs cannot be separated.
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Zohair
06-19-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
No.

Its like a spiritual guide. Its not a set of rules.
then what are the set of rules?
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Joe98
06-19-2006, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zohair
then what are the set of rules?
Rules for what?

Most people live by rules made by their government or by their local community.
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duskiness
06-19-2006, 05:27 AM
Zohair, AL-Muminah - I'll try to answer Your questions. BUT i have no time till wednesday
so be patient, don't spoil anything, and listen to Joe ;)
n.
Reply

glo
06-19-2006, 06:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
I think we can both agree that there is one God- as this is something that both christianity and Islam teach- yet christians takes it further to claim that the one God is in three parts. But what is the point of that? If the one God is perfect already why on earth would this God need to be split in to three toperform the function that One perfect God with out parts is capable of performing?
Hi cheese

I already answered that question as best I could. :)
I hope you understand where im coming from Glo. :)
What I understand is that Muslims strongly condemn the idea of the trinity, because the Qur'an says so, and because they see it to be polytheism.
What I also understand it that Christians try to explain the trinity to make people understand that Christians believe in one God

I know it is an important dedate between the two religions, but the rift seems so wide, it is almost pointless to enter into a discussion.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?

I came across a good quote, which seems to support my previously expressed view of 'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':

Only God knows God (al-Junayd)
Peace.
Reply

Malaikah
06-19-2006, 06:50 AM
I guess its a matter of faith for you isnt it? :) i understand.

I dont view christians as politheist as they dont believe they are that themselves but i do think it comes close to it, but isnt quite there since there is the acknowledgement that God is one.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?
We have already been told in the Quran that God is one and that he doesnt have a son and that Jesus was a prophet, not God. Thats why we reject the idea.

:thankyou:
Reply

Woodrow
06-19-2006, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi cheese

I already answered that question as best I could. :)


What I understand is that Muslims strongly condemn the idea of the trinity, because the Qur'an says so, and because they see it to be polytheism.
What I also understand it that Christians try to explain the trinity to make people understand that Christians believe in one God

I know it is an important dedate between the two religions, but the rift seems so wide, it is almost pointless to enter into a discussion.

Muslims are so clear that they should make no image of God whatsoever - so why reject the Christian view so strongly?

I came across a good quote, which seems to support my previously expressed view of 'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':



Peace.
Glo, First I want to commend you on your effort to explain the concept of Trinity in terms of Christian belief. You are doing an admirable job of it.

One of the most difficult things in this world is the attempt to communicate abstract thoughts and concepts without having a tangible base for everybody to relate to. In many ways this is like attempting to convey the concept of art. We all have an idea as to what art is, but it is virtualy impossible to explain it to another person.

One big problem with the idea of the Trinity is that from a scholastic view it appears to be a later inclusion into Christian concepts. Even in the early days of it's description by the Catholic Orthodoxy there was much debate over what it was. The Early Church seems to have first viewed a duality of only the Son and the Father, It was not until after the Nicene Council that the idea of a trilogy including the Holy Spirit came about. Much of the early books that discounted the concept of a Trinity were removed from what was to become the modern Bible. Specificaly these would be the Gospels of Barnabas and the Early Marconite Gospels, along with all the Gnostic books.

I don't want to hijack this thread and go off on a tangent. So I will end this post simply by reiterating that your willingness to explain your belief is appreciated.

I believe at least we can all agree on one thing, your quote from above:

'God is God, he always has been and forever will be. He is how he is - even if we don't think it makes sense.':
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
06-20-2006, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
Zohair, AL-Muminah - I'll try to answer Your questions. BUT i have no time till wednesday
so be patient, don't spoil anything, and listen to Joe ;)
n.
They are not my questions but Idris's i just quoted his post. Take your time. I look forward to your answers:)
Reply

Phil12123
06-21-2006, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akr4m

Just wanted to comment on that trinity diagram

The trinity diagram is not logical

The diagram is described:

Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

At the same time

Father does not = son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy sprit

And we know from the laws of logic

If A = B, B = C then A = C

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)


No one can explain God with simple logic. We all want to simplify God but us talking about God is like one ant talking to another ant about how humans were able to land on the moon. It is all beyond our pea-brained comprehension to understand God. The best we can do is repeat whatever He has revealed of Himself in the Word of God (which, to me, is the Bible; to you is the Qua'ran). With that said, let me say WHY the diagram correctly explains the Trinity, which I believe has been revealed to us by God in the Bible.

The Bible calls the Father "God". The Bible calls the Son "God". And the Bible calls the Holy Spirit "God". But the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So we can't conclude that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are THREE Gods, though each is called "God". If there is only ONE God, then those three somehow have to BE the One God.

So, how can the following be true?

Father does not = Son
Father does not = Holy Spirit
Son does not = Holy Spirit

Because though each are God, each are not each other. That is, the Holy Spirit did not die on the cross for our sins, the Son did. The Son did not send the Father to be the Savior of the world, the Father did. The Father did not descend from heaven on the Day of Pentacost and empower the church to carry the Gospel to the whole world, the Holy Spirit did.

So there is distinction of personages but equality of essence, substance, or nature, as well as unity of purpose and will.

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-21-2006, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The Head of Christ is God.

This scripture shows a completely different structure or pattern from the Trinity. The word head in the Greek is the word "kephale" which literally means 'from', 'source' or 'position of authority'.
If God were a Trinity, how do you explain that the head of Christ is God. We know that Jesus is the Christ, but so far the scriptures seem to say that God is the head of Jesus. Is the Father the one and only God? Is the Father above all, even Christ?
According to one lexicon, "head" or the Greek, "kephale," is from the primary "kapto" (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively. It is used 76 times in the Greek New Testament, most often for the human head (on top of our shoulders), as in the verses that follow the reference you gave above (1 Cor. 11:3)--verse 4 (twice), verse 5 (twice), and verses 7 and 10 (once each). Jesus is said to be the head of every man here in verse 3, but also the head of the church in Col. 1:18 and Eph. 5:23. Thus, all the church looks to Christ for its life and direction, being in total submission to Him. Without our human head, the body can do nothing. Likewise, without Christ (the Head), the church (the Body), can do nothing. In Colossians 2:10, Christ is called the "Head over every power and authority" (NIV).

Now, as to the relationship between Christ and God (the Father), we see that Christ was in total submission to His Father throughout His earthly ministry and to some extent even now. But remember from what position the pre-incarnate Word lowered Himself to take on the form of a servant, to be obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. His position in heaven was one of equality with the Father but He considered that equality not something to be grasped or held onto, but He emptied Himself, not of His essential Deity but of His position, making Himself of no reputation and taking on the form of a servant or slave for our sakes. Philippians 2:5-11, as rendered in different versions brings all this out:

King James Version:

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

New American Standard Version:

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So what does 1 Cor. 11:3 tell us? That Christ is less than Deity, simply because it says "the head of Christ is God"? It also says "the head of the woman is the man." Is the woman any less human than the man? No, to both questions. This is talking about positions, not essential natures. In the business world, a partnership can be an organization of equals but it can still have a managing partner that the others have selected and agreed to follow the leadership of. No one of the partners is any less a partner, part of the organization, simply because he is submitting to the decisions and authority of the managing partner.

Notice also John 5:22-23:

22. "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23. in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Notice we are all to honor the Son EVEN AS we honor the Father. Those two words "even as" mean "just like" or "to the same extent that". They are the same in the Greek as in "AS you would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (the Golden Rule, at Luke 6:31).

We are all going to stand before Christ, our Judge, some day. All of us will bow and confess that He is LORD to the glory of the Father (Phil 2:11 above). He is SO much more than a mere man or prophet. We may not acknowledge that now, but we will then.

One final verse, Colossians 2:9, which one of the most important verses on this subject:

"For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form." And that verse was written AFTER His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. So He still has His resurrection body--"in bodily form". Deity in a body! God in a body!

Peace
Reply

cihad
06-22-2006, 06:32 PM
ISLAM is logical!
Reply

duskiness
06-23-2006, 12:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cihad
ISLAM is logical!
Islam -maybe. God - not. He is above logic.
n.
Reply

IceQueen~
06-23-2006, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by akr4m
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

Therefore
If Father = God and Son = God then Son also ought to = Father but the diagram doesn’t agree (Son does not = father), hence not logical.

:w:
take care:)
that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL :w:
Reply

IceQueen~
06-23-2006, 12:45 PM
oh and joe98 what is your definition of faith?
Reply

...
06-23-2006, 12:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marge1
that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL :w:
Too right u are sis :thumbs_up
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duskiness
06-23-2006, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marge1
that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL :w:
- and? we know it :) have You heard about negative theology?
"And don't apply simple logic to Him. You will never understand who He is. If You think You understand then that's no God.
We accept this as mystery (or Mystery- we believers love capital letter )
Trinty humbles our reason befor God." --- quoting myself (hihih...i'm so vain... :) )from " Questions about Christians."
n.
Reply

glo
06-23-2006, 01:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
If You think You understand then that's no God.
That's a really good way of putting it. And so true!

How can God possibly be fully understood by humans?
If man claims to make total sense of God, then his idea of God is possibly man-made ...? :? Food for thought!

peace.
Reply

Ayesha Rana
06-23-2006, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
That's a really good way of putting it. And so true!

How can God possibly be fully understood by humans?
If man claims to make total sense of God, then his idea of God is possibly man-made ...? :? Food for thought!

peace.
I don't believe in the trinity anyway but you are right in saying that God cannot ever be fully understood by humans and i really feel like rolling my eyes when proud stuck up people demand to fully understand God or else they won't believe.
May Allah help them. Ameen
Reply

glo
06-23-2006, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana
I don't believe in the trinity anyway but you are right in saying that God cannot ever be fully understood by humans and i really feel like rolling my eyes when proud stuck up people demand to fully understand God or else they won't believe.
May Allah help them. Ameen
Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.
Reply

Ayesha Rana
06-23-2006, 01:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.
Too right sis. Wev'e gotta keep our heads out of the clouds. Boasting isn't gonna do us any good.
Reply

IceQueen~
06-23-2006, 01:38 PM
I know God cannot be understood fully by humans but why do xians believe that God came in the form of a man-isn't that sort of belittling His position?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-23-2006, 02:46 PM
Sikhs do not believe in any trinity. As Guru Granth Sahib (the Holy Scripture of Sikhs) states - on its first page, first line, and first word, “God is One.”

Jesus did not say that God is a trinity. Christianity is a religion of great diversity. Common human being with no spiritual knowledge came up with the concept of their own, which they called trinity. According to the theory, the trinity is composed of the Holy Spirit, The Father and the son.

The belief in trinity is to consider three to be one and one to be three, which is completely illogical. It is a belief that considers father not to be elder than his son, a son to be equal with his father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both. It is a belief to consider a virgin to be a mother of a son, and that very son of hers to be her maker.

As explained in a previous question that Jesus is not God there is no chance that Jesus can be included in trinity as equal to God.

Jesus himself made it clear that there is only one God and he is the Father. How can a Holy Spirit be considered different from the Father God. God is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is no other entity but God. So the Father (God) and the Holy Spirit are not two different entities but One, which completely fails the theory of trinity.

In summary the theory of trinity fails completely due to following reasons described in brief above:

1. One cannot be three and three cannot be one. Simple math.
2. Son cannot be equal to the father.
3. Jesus is not God.
4. The Holy Spirit not different from God but is God.

Sikhs believe that God is One and there is no one else like God. According to Sikhism, God is NOT a trinity.

Apology to anyone who might feel offended by disregarding the theory of trinity but we are presenting what is written in the Holy Scripture of Sikhs. We do not mean in any way to disrespect someone and their beliefs.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-23-2006, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Thank you, sister. I'm so glad you agree! :statisfie

I feel that God wants our humility, not people shouting 'I know God better than you!'

Blessings.

True :)

How can we describe Him? How can we know Him? O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest. Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will. O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. || 21 ||

(Guru Nanak)
Reply

Umar001
06-23-2006, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
He is doing neither.
He is merely explaining it.
It's actually nice to hear a Muslim explain it - perhaps it makes it clearer to other Muslims.

I don't think Idris is trying to turn people away from Islam here ... :thankyou:

peace.

Hmm, yea but he seemed to just be explaining it, and I thought he would have done it with the bible, but then he posted some scriptures that seemed he was like saying that the Bible is confusing.

Thats what confused me, at first I thought he was using the Bible to explain the trinity, then it seemed like he used it to disprove some stuff.

:?
Reply

Umar001
06-23-2006, 03:39 PM
And of course we cant understand everything about G-d in this life, I dont know baout the next.

but the basic understanding of him being One or One in Three should be simple.

We wont know, things like 'G-d was always there' we cant understand that.
Or G-d has no end.
Or G-d just is.


that yea we dont get it,

But whether G-d is one or Three in One or Everything, or In us all. that should be easy.
Reply

duskiness
06-23-2006, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Apology to anyone who might feel offended by disregarding the theory of trinity but we are presenting what is written in the Holy Scripture of Sikhs. We do not mean in any way to disrespect someone and their beliefs.[/B]
- LOL no need to apologise for not believing in Trinity, or for qouting your Book. We know you're not Christian! :)
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-24-2006, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
- LOL no need to apologise for not believing in Trinity, or for qouting your Book. We know you're not Christian! :)
I'm on my last warning, so i'm trying to cool things down a tad :giggling:
Reply

glo
06-24-2006, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I'm on my last warning, so i'm trying to cool things down a tad :giggling:
Your last warning? What have you been warned for?:?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-24-2006, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Your last warning? What have you been warned for?:?
Questions that have been misconstrued unfortunatley!

Oh well, musn't grumble eh! :X
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Phil12123
06-24-2006, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Marya1
that's the whole thing about the trinity- it's ILLOGICAL
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James)

Or, as the Paraphrase puts it:

"But the man who isn't a Christian can't understand and can't accept these thoughts from God, which the Holy Spirit teaches us. They sound foolish to him, because only those who have the Holy Spirit within them can understand what the Holy Spirit means. Others just can't take it in." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (Living Bible)

Peace
Reply

akr4m
06-25-2006, 01:42 AM
:sl:

It seems people agree that Trinity is illogical – but this is then backed up by saying God is beyond human understanding hence it is ok.

I agree God is beyond human understanding but to give an example of this is absurd.

To believe God transcends rational and then give an example of this i.e. trinity is self contradictory.

Only through logic and reason have we come to the conclusion that the concept of trinity is contradictory then how did God go beyond human understanding?

:w:
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Umar001
06-25-2006, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James)

Sounds like the easy way out, someone preaches something Illogical and then says, 'dont worry, yall jus have faith, others might question but it is only illogical to them because he doesnt have faith'

:hiding: :hiding:
Reply

duskiness
06-25-2006, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Sounds like the easy way out, someone preaches something Illogical and then says, 'dont worry, yall jus have faith, others might question but it is only illogical to them because he doesnt have faith'

:hiding: :hiding:
Many atheists i know say it's illogical to believe in good God in the word full of suffering. But it makes some sense to both of us. Although for nonbelivers it may be illogical.
n.
Reply

Umar001
06-25-2006, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
Many atheists i know say it's illogical to believe in good God in the word full of suffering. But it makes some sense to both of us. Although for nonbelivers it may be illogical.
n.

Lets look at the Bible and see how your point is different to this:


"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James)

The Bible here is saying, that it does not make sense to natural man. And it cannot make sense to him unless he has faith.

With regards to Athiest they can see it logically, some may not but some can see it logical, taht this world can have suffering but that G-d will reward the suffering in the hereafter.

Thats why the comparison you made doesnt seem to go down well.
Reply

Phil12123
06-26-2006, 05:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Lets look at the Bible and see how your point is different to this:

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James)

The Bible here is saying, that it does not make sense to natural man. And it cannot make sense to him unless he has faith.

With regards to Athiest they can see it logically, some may not but some can see it logical, that this world can have suffering but that G-d will reward the suffering in the hereafter.

Thats why the comparison you made doesnt seem to go down well.
I think she makes a good point. I'm not getting your point, though, because why would an Atheist see God rewarding the suffering in the hereafter? He doesn't believe in any God. How is what you say logical?

One other thing. 1 Cor. 2:14 was speaking of "things of the Spirit of God" that have to be spiritually discerned. Relying on logic is NOT using the Spirit to understand something. Logic is what seems reasonable to the natural mind quite apart from the Spirit. The natural, unspiritual mind sees things solely from man's perspective, not God's. If we want God's perspective we have to get it from the Spirit of God, not from human reasoning and logic.

Isaiah 55:
8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Unless God reveals it to us, the things of the Spirit of God will always seem like foolishness and seem unreasonable and illogical. God in His Word reveals the truth of the Trinity. It only remains for us to believe what He tells us, not decide if it is logical enough to believe.

Peace
Reply

Umar001
06-26-2006, 11:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
I think she makes a good point. I'm not getting your point, though, because why would an Atheist see God rewarding the suffering in the hereafter? He doesn't believe in any God. How is what you say logical?

ok I will go into again for you:

She said:
Many atheists i know say it's illogical to believe in good God in the word full of suffering.


That is what is illogical to the Athiest, does he have to believe it himself? No, he is just analizing a belief. mainly the belief in a Good G-d while this world is in such a state.

Now what I said:

With regards to Athiest they can see it logically, some may not but some can see it logical, that this world can have suffering but that G-d will reward the suffering in the hereafter.


Now I am not talking about the Athiest believeing in G-d, since I was responding, I was taking her stand point of the Athiest looking at someone's belief of a Good G-d, now if the Athiest, was to be a logical person he would look at all of the Belief, not just that someone believes in a Good G-d but this world is bad so the Athiest renders it illogical, a logical Athiest would look at all of the belief including the part which states that people will be rewarded for their suffering, thus an Athiest, who doesnt believe in G-d, can still see this logically.



format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
One other thing. 1 Cor. 2:14 was speaking of "things of the Spirit of God" that have to be spiritually discerned. Relying on logic is NOT using the Spirit to understand something. Logic is what seems reasonable to the natural mind quite apart from the Spirit. The natural, unspiritual mind sees things solely from man's perspective, not God's. If we want God's perspective we have to get it from the Spirit of God, not from human reasoning and logic.

Isaiah 55:
8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Unless God reveals it to us, the things of the Spirit of God will always seem like foolishness and seem unreasonable and illogical. God in His Word reveals the truth of the Trinity. It only remains for us to believe what He tells us, not decide if it is logical enough to believe.

Peace

I dont see how this plays any part, I stated it seemed like an easy thing to just teach people something Illogical and then tell them, you believe in it and have faith, but this will jus be illogical to others because they dont have faith yet. It seems you agree that this is what has happend.

I guess this could be taken further but I don't see any fruitfull conversation arising, if you do then I'd be more than happy to keep talking friend.

Peace
Reply

person
06-27-2006, 11:07 AM
trinity- 3 gods in one or 1 god in3? father=1 holy spirit=1 and the son=1. but 1+1+1=3. Edited by Woodrow comment wasinappropriate
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glo
06-27-2006, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by person
trinity- 3 gods in one or 1 god in3? father=1 holy spirit=1 and the son=1. but 1+1+1=3. Edited by Woodrow comment was inappropriate.
With all due respect, have you read this thread?
Are you interested in learning what Christians believe about the trinity? Or do you just want to belittle it?
Because you don't understand and/or don't believe the concept of the trinity, you call it 'messed up'??

In the few months I have spent in this forum I have gained a huge respect for those people who can hear other peoples' views and beliefs without feeling the need to criticise them for it.
Being a follower of your faith does not mean you have to discredit all other faiths ... I think.

Peace.
Reply

iLL_LeaT
06-27-2006, 06:50 PM
I hate to quote myself but...

format_quote Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT
I have read somewhere that the Trinity was actually thought up by the Greeks, and the whole point of it was to remind people that God isn’t comprehensible. Having one God in three separate parts is a little confusing. Having one God in three parts is, in fact, not suppose to be comprehended, just understood.
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glo
06-27-2006, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamgyal
excues me that is not nice at all i am a christain here (Edited by Woodrow comment was inappropriate)show some respect atleast!, the mods whatever you call them i think you need to delete this how can you let this stay on it's not acceptable and also where not all muslims here!!! :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended:
Don't be upset, Samantha! :thankyou:

Until I found this forum, I innocently assumed that everybody has an understanding of the basic Christian beliefs. Living in a country which describes itself as predominantly Christian, that was an understandable assumption to make.

I have since come to understand that many people have a very limited, if any understanding of Christian doctrine.
You will read stuff that may seem very odd.
And some things will sound positively blasphemous.

Some comments may stem from ignorance, others from a desire to cause division.

Try to remember that this is a Muslim forum, and we are guests. :)

If you stay, you will meet many nice and friendly people, who want to learn from and understand each other.
There may be some exceptions - but then, that's human nature!

God Bless! :thankyou:
Reply

I R Paki
06-27-2006, 08:49 PM
maybe its not to our complete understanding as Humans, they do say god works in mysterious ways.
Reply

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