Concept of Hell

[iLL_LeaT]

Could it be possible that hell is not hot or cold?

Feeling pain through temperature is strictly a survival mechanism, and probably a feeling of the flesh.

I have found through studying a few religions that most of them find the concept of God and the afterlife incomprehensible, but yet most religions do try to explain it. Perhaps calling hell hot (!) or cold (!) is just attempting to explain the unexplainable.

I have read somewhere that the Trinity was actually thought up by the Greeks, and the whole point of it was to remind people that God isn’t comprehensible. Having one God in three separate parts is a little confusing. Having one God in three parts is, in fact, not suppose to be comprehended, just understood.

I’m all of the sudden thinking of the book of Genesis from the Torah. I laugh every time I think about an all knowing being trying to explain how the earth came to be in terms that a human from over 4000 years ago could understand.

Anyway… is hell hot or cold? Saying it is hot or cold, is that just trying to explain something that is not comprehensible? I mean who is to say that in the hereafter we will have the same concepts pain or even love?

It’s all something to think about.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Could it be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans in order to scare other humans into following orders? The descriptions given above are clearly human projections of human fears, and nothing more.

Peace

[tilmeez-ullah]

Greetings,

Could it be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans in order to scare other humans into following orders? The descriptions given above are clearly human projections of human fears, and nothing more.

Peace

absolutely not. Allah promises hell for the non-belivers, an he is the best at fulfilling his promises.
This is the point where asking too many questions becomes harmful, brother

[czgibson]

Greetings,

absolutely not. Allah promises hell for the non-belivers, an he is the best at fulfilling his promises.
This is the point where asking too many questions becomes harmful, brother

I always ask questions. It's how I learn.

I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

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[tilmeez-ullah]

Greetings,


I always ask questions. It's how I learn.

I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

okay, sorry if i offended you in any way. i think i misinterpreted the question

im am not a learned man in islam, but i do know that Allah sent down the Quraan to Muhammed (sawws). in the quran Allah speaks of "a fire, blazing fiercley, whose fuel is men". Im certian there are much more descriptions, but my point is that this was sent down to the prophet (saaws) by Allah. No man made verses have ever enterd the quraan since the day it was revealed. But i must say, you are right when you say that it keeps some people form doing wrong.
It will be a painful torment for the non-believers.

[glo]

Greetings,


I always ask questions. It's how I learn.

I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

It certainly would be an effective way of controlling people's behaviour ...
The more gory the details, the easier it would be to ensure compliance.

As somebody who believes in heaven and hell myself, I still have to admit that the idea could be abused by human to control their fellow human beings ...
I don't really know how anybody could deny the possibility ... :X

peace.

P.S. My husband reckons that's a Gibson Les Paul ... is he right?

[- Qatada -]

Hi czgibson.


The reason why fears may have to be projections of human fears is so that people can understand what the punishment is actually like.

If we were warned of a punishment that we couldn't even imagine - then we wouldn't actually understand it, feel confused, and may not even believe it.


Like the fire of this world is just a taster of the fire in the afterlife, so we try to avoid getting too close to it, the same way - this fire that we are afraid of can be used as a form of pleasure because it brings in heat etc. The same way the pleasures of this life are just minimal because with nearly every pleasure there is a negative aspect (i.e. with all the wealth we have, we will die anyway.)

So this world is like a taster to the real thing, and we realise that if we do bad - then we will be punished, and by experiencing the punishment (in a minor way) - we'll want to avoid it. The same way, we'll experience pleasures, but we know that every pleasure will end some time, hence pleasures do have a negative effect - but we do get a taster of what pleasure actually is - so we strive to do good, to gain the eternal pleasure in the afterlife insha'Allaah (God willing.)


So the tasters of this world aren't pure, the punishment of this world won't totally harm us, and the pleasure won't always make us feel happy. Hence these tasters are what influence us to do good, and to avoid evil - because we realise that there will only be two outcomes in the afterlife; either punishment which will have no enjoyment whatsoever and in its pure form - that will last forever, or pure pleasure without no harm, and the person will never die - hence the fun will never end..


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[glo]

I don't think czgibson is asking why we visualize hell the way we do.
If you read his question carefully, he is actually asking if 'it could be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans?'

[iLL_LeaT]

I don't think czgibson is asking why we visualize hell the way we do.
If you read his question carefully, he is actually asking if 'it could be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans?'

No. I asked the question

[glo]

No. I asked the question

Sorry, if I misquoted anybody. :hiding: I copied and pasted the question straight off czgibson's post - I didn't see it in yours.
Anyway, it's a good question! And worthy of some consideration. :)

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Could it be possible that hell is not hot or cold?

Feeling pain through temperature is strictly a survival mechanism, and probably a feeling of the flesh.

I have found through studying a few religions that most of them find the concept of God and the afterlife incomprehensible, but yet most religions do try to explain it. Perhaps calling hell hot (!) or cold (!) is just attempting to explain the unexplainable.

I have read somewhere that the Trinity was actually thought up by the Greeks, and the whole point of it was to remind people that God isn’t comprehensible. Having one God in three separate parts is a little confusing. Having one God in three parts is, in fact, not suppose to be comprehended, just understood.

I’m all of the sudden thinking of the book of Genesis from the Torah. I laugh every time I think about an all knowing being trying to explain how the earth came to be in terms that a human from over 4000 years ago could understand.

Anyway… is hell hot or cold? Saying it is hot or cold, is that just trying to explain something that is not comprehensible? I mean who is to say that in the hereafter we will have the same concepts pain or even love?

It’s all something to think about.

Hey.


The descriptions in the Qur'an of punishment for unbelief are, like the descriptions of Jannah, very descriptive. Skin is burned off the person's body and then they are given new skin so it can be burned off again.

As for those who reject Our Signs, We will roast them in a Fire. Every time their skins are burned off, We will replace them with new skins so that they can taste the punishment. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (4:56)


Peace.

[iLL_LeaT]

Greetings,


I always ask questions. It's how I learn.

I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

My personal feeling is that anything is possible.

I have been taught to conclude from reason and logic, and since there is no known evidence of any God (scientifically), it’s hard to conclude that there could be a god. However, concluding from only reason and logic is limited, as is only concluding from faith.

There are limitations on science.
1 – Nothing is fact, just making theories from tests
2 – Science is always changing; therefore what is currently though to be true very well could be changed to something completely different.

Current limitations in science prevent from there being any evidence based religious beliefs. Evolution is an evidence based theory. However, it is not a religion. It has no explanation of what happens after life, nor does it explain how the universe came to be. Most say that the universe has just always been, but that is not evidence based.

Let me read you a quote

“Human understanding of value and purpose are outside of natural science’s scope. However, a number of components – scientific, social, philosophical, religious, cultural and political contribute to it. These different fields owe each other mutual consideration, while being fully aware of their own areas of action and their limitations.

While acknowledging current limitations, science is open ended, and subject to correction and expansion as new theoretical and empirical understanding emerges.”
- IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h..._evolution.pdf

In my opinion, anything is possible. There very well could be no hell. Since I have been raised to conclude from reason and logic, I feel that there being no God is a very scary possibility. I have spent many nights awake in bed thinking about this.

I have decided that there could be no god or afterlife. But, I would rather burn in hell for the rest of eternity then not exist after death. However, I would also rather only live one life then never live at all.

But really, anything is possible. There could even be no God but still have an afterlife, and there could be a God but still no afterlife. Who knows?

[czgibson]

Greetings glo,

I think it's a valid question, and it's heartening to know someone agrees with me.

P.S. My husband reckons that's a Gibson Les Paul ... is he right?

Your husband is absolutely right! And what's more, it's mine. I play it every day and it sounds glorious!

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

This section is for Islamic beliefs. Please keep religious debates in the comparative religion section. If you need posts moved, contact a mod.

Regards

[glo]

Greetings glo,

I think it's a valid question, and it's heartening to know someone agrees with me.



Your husband is absolutely right! And what's more, it's mine. I play it every day and it sounds glorious!

Peace

Cool! I'll tell him.

I have to confess that for a while I had this bizarre conspiracy thing going, that you and my husband are actually the same person!!! ;D ;D
It's just that you have so much in common!

He has two guitars, and plays them all day every day.
But he doesn't have a Les Paul ... so that's the proof that you are not the same person! :giggling:

Peace.

[------]

Interesting...

[iLL_LeaT]

Interesting...

How so?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This section is for Islamic beliefs. Please keep religious debates in the comparative religion section. If you need posts moved, contact a mod.

Sorry, Ansar. My bad. These posts would be better in comparative religion. My trouble is I never look to see which forum each thread is in - I just discuss the issue as it stands.

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Thread Moved to Comparative Religion.


:wasalamex

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Thank you FS! So does this mean someone can answer my question now?

Could it be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans in order to scare other humans into following orders?

Peace

[Tania]

Greetings,

Thank you FS! So does this mean someone can answer my question now?



Peace

Your only one problem is : the people can't hold the absolute truth. There is an entire theory which shows that. Regarding your question i can't answer because you are atheist. For you-in your eyes-the truth would be the non-existence of God. For me the truth would be there is God. See-but none of us is not able to prove it or not, because we are only humans.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Your only one problem is : the people can't hold the absolute truth. There is an entire theory which shows that. Regarding your question i can't answer because you are atheist. For you-in your eyes-the truth would be the non-existence of God. For me the truth would be there is God. See-but none of us is not able to prove it or not, because we are only humans.

An interesting epistemological quandary, which I think you'll find my question neatly avoids: I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

[Tania]

Greetings,


An interesting epistemological quandary, which I think you'll find my question neatly avoids: I'm asking if it's possible.

Peace

I can search for the theory but they have right about truth. My answer its obvious: is not possible to be used by some people only to get some benefits from it.

[- Qatada -]

Hi.


I think that if a person can't grasp the idea that there is a God, and that God created this world - then they may not be able to grasp the idea of God creating another world after death.

If God can create us out of nothing, then surely God can bring life back to the dead - the same way plants come back to life after God provides them with water in rainfall.

However, atheists just have their mind set to this world only, and probably can't grasp the idea of the afterlife. But you have to ask yourself, are people just created without a purpose, in vain? Whenever anything is created by man, he creates it for a purpose (i.e. a computer etc), for a reason - but when the most knowledgable of creation i.e. man is asked for his purpose in life, he feels that all he has to do is wander around the world, gather up wealth and finally die without a purpose. Doesn't man think that there is something more superior than him? Won't every thing be responsible for his/her actions?

When any being is in danger, it wants something greater to protect it, and who can it seek refuge in? We as muslims believe that everything is already pre-destined, hence we seek refuge in God, because God created everything and therefore we turn to the One who is Greater in Power and Authority.


Throughout history, the message of God has been coming down and it is so widespread that nearly every religion that has come has promised a reward for the ones who believe and do good works (because of the good that they did in this world), and the ones that disbelieve and harm others will be punished for their actions respectively.


Your example of man creating the idea of hell and paradise and using it for authority can be true to an extent and to some individuals, but as you read the lives of the prophets that came before - what did they use their authority for? As you see their lives, you realise that most of the prophets lived in poverty and with the weak, why was this? If they only preferred honor and respect - wouldn't they want to live a luxurious lifestyle? They could have the most beautiful of wives, and enjoy everything that came to them, but why did they live a lifestyle like this?


It is obvious that man is created for a purpose, and God is the one who created every living thing - the ones that do good and believe will be rewarded, and those who reject God and do evil acts will be thrown into the hellfire. Each will get the reward that they desire, and if one takes the first step towards God - God will be pleased and will know that intention, hence God will guide them towards the truth insha'Allaah, as long as the person is sincere.



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[iLL_LeaT]

I have a question for you, czgibson. Do you think it is possible that there is a hell?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I have a question for you, czgibson. Do you think it is possible that there is a hell?

Good question. I suppose it's possible, but I think it's massively more likely that it was made up by humans.

Peace

[iLL_LeaT]

Greetings,


Good question. I suppose it's possible, but I think it's massively more likely that it was made up by humans.

Peace

Agreed

I find it interesting that there are so many different ways to define what is right and wrong, and if an individuals right differs from God’s, then they go to hell. There is no possible way to know 100% what God thinks is right or wrong. Some might say to look to their holy book. However, if we look at how differently people interpret these holy books, it is obvious that it is indeed impossible to say what God thinks is right or wrong. We have both Christians and Muslims who say it is better to love thy neighbor more then thyself, yet we have Christians who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors who work at these clinics. And they actually have a very long history of killing. And then we have the militant Islamic groups that also kill in the name of God. And these people use there holy book to justify these actions.

The interpretation of anything can go an infinite number of ways. In fact, an ordinal message of something is almost never comprehended.

Who’s right is right? Militant activists (I hope not) or the peaceful people that say love is the best way. There is no way to know 100%

This is of course assuming that there is a God, and there actually is a right or wrong other then what humans think is right and wrong.

Now let’s assume that there is no real right or wrong, just laws made by humans. How does someone convince another there way of doing things is more correct then the others? Fear? Fear is the easiest way to get control, and hell is definitely something to fear.

Then again, without the fear of hell (or any kind of consequences for some actions) where would our world be?

I would like to say that even though I am without a religion, I still have a since of right and wrong. But my since of right and wrong probably comes from laws that were founded by Christian beliefs, so what I believe to be right and wrong may be influenced by the fear of hell. So without the fear of hell, where would humanity be?

[Malaikah]

Greetings,

Could it be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans in order to scare other humans into following orders?

Peace

Weird question.

Well i guess for you, it obviously is isnt it? You dont even believe in God so how can you believe in hell? So in your mind, hell is a made up concept.

For the rest of us- Muslims and christains too i guess, hell is reality, we dont believe humans made it up, we believe God created it and warned us about it. Why do we believe in hell? Becuase we want to? Becuase it makes sense that there should be a massive place of an eternal raging fire where evil people whille be thrown? No. Becuase we believe in God. So really what your question is based on is having faith in God.

So, for those of us who follow a religion which includes the concept of hell, God told us about hell, we didnt make it up. For the rest of you, it is probably a man-made idea.

[glo]

Greetings,


Good question. I suppose it's possible, but I think it's massively more likely that it was made up by humans.

Peace

Interesting, but not surprising.
Can you tell me what evidence you base this decision on? What makes you think that?

Peace

[------]

Could it be possible that hell is a fiction invented by humans in order to scare other humans into following orders? The descriptions given above are clearly human projections of human fears, and nothing more

Errrrrrrr......No it cudnt be possible... :rollseyes

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Interesting, but not surprising.
Can you tell me what evidence you base this decision on? What makes you think that?

Peace

:peace:

mind if i answer this one?

*clears throat*

HE DOESNT BELIEVE IN GOD :giggling:

lol, u see a structure of a building, an amazing car, a grand piece of art and u wonder who made it... You look at the world, you luk at the stars... dont u wonder?

:peace:

[syilla]

maybe someone that is knowledgeable can post the concept of hell and heaven base from al-quran and sunnah.

It'll remind us to be a better muslims...

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


http://muttaqun.com/hell.html

http://muttaqun.com/paradise.html


:wasalamex

[------]

lol, u see a structure of a building, an amazing car, a grand piece of art and u wonder who made it... You look at the world, you luk at the stars... dont u wonder?

I wonder.......upon a star.....that it just came by.....chance!

[Edit]

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Feeling pain through temperature is strictly a survival mechanism, and probably a feeling of the flesh.

It is evident to me that you havent read the Quran.

This is why Allah says;

(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. [Surah Nisa Ayah 56]

[glo]

:peace:

mind if i answer this one?

*clears throat*

HE DOESNT BELIEVE IN GOD :giggling:

lol, u see a structure of a building, an amazing car, a grand piece of art and u wonder who made it... You look at the world, you luk at the stars... dont u wonder?

:peace:

I hope my question to czginson did not sound sarcastic - because it wasn't meant that way!

In czgibson's statement hell is 'massively more likely to have been made up by humans than to be real'. That sounds like ... what? ... 80%, 90% for the non-existence of hell?
In my experience atheists don't make such statements lightly. Not like us 'believers' who plainly declare something to be true, simply because the Qur'an/Bible tells us so!

My question was very genuine. What makes czgibson so (relatively) certain that hell does not exist?

Peace.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I hope my question to czginson did not sound sarcastic - because it wasn't meant that way!

In czgibson's statement hell is 'massively more likely to have been made up by humans than to be real'. That sounds like ... what? ... 80%, 90% for the non-existence of hell?
In my experience atheists don't make such statements lightly. Not like us 'believers' who plainly declare something to be true, simply because the Qur'an/Bible tells us so!

My question was very genuine. What makes czgibson so (relatively) certain that hell does not exist?

Peace.

:peace:

I dont mean to sound rude sis but dont you have to believe in the All-mighty to believe there is a heaven or hell to get to? :?

:peace:

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Yup, i agree. If disbelievers of God don't even accept that there is a God, they don't believe theres a higher authority to tell the difference between right and wrong - hence they don't believe that people are sinful, so they don't believe that there is any form of punishment and reward in the afterlife (yet alone an afterlife.)


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[syilla]

thank you for the link...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Interesting, but not surprising.
Can you tell me what evidence you base this decision on? What makes you think that?

It's difficult to have evidence of the non-existence of something, but essentially I feel the same way about hell as I do about god. They are both parts of the system of social control called theistic religion, with god as the enforcer of the moral code and hell as the punishment for breaking that code.

There are several reasons why I believe these things are made up by humans. One of them is the human predilection for making up stories. Another is the natural human desire to explain things which are not well understood. Also, the fact that hell has never been directly observed or experienced by anybody who we can contact makes it very doubtful that it is an actual place. I would also say that the concept of hell strikes many atheists as being a primitive idea, particularly the more physical that descriptions of it become. It is interesting to note that Christian belief in hell as a physical reality is in decline among laypersons, whereas belief in heaven does not seem to be declining so rapidly.

My understanding of the development of theistic religion is strongly influenced by Emile Durkheim, as I've explained in a number of threads.

Peace

[glo]

Thank you for your reply, czgibson.

I must have missed any of your previous references to Émile Durkheim.
I will try to read up on your link when I have the time.

Peace.

[czgibson]

Greetings glo,

I must have missed any of your previous references to Émile Durkheim.
I will try to read up on your link when I have the time.

You can find my references to Emile Durkheim in these threads: http://www.islamicboard.com/search/search-id/281671/

The best place to look first is the Development of Theism thread - I brought up Durkheim in post #3. His theory of religion is not something that can be proven, but I find aspects of it very compelling.

Peace

[iLL_LeaT]

Greetings,

They are both parts of the system of social control called theistic religion, with god as the enforcer of the moral code and hell as the punishment for breaking that code.

Peace

From anthropologists studying social behaviors from different cultures, we find that all cultures share two things, kinship and religion. So religion is not always a form of control. There are tribes that have never been exposed to any hierarchal type of society that still have religion.

Every culture has someway to define family, some matrimonially, some patrimonially, and some both. Though people define who’s kin differently, every culture has a since of kin. The same goes for religion; every culture naturally has a since of god(s) and some sort of existence after life.

Why? Last term I had a professor who said religion is a survival mechanism. When the pre-homosapiens evolved out of the trees and onto land, there were more dangers then ever before, only the paranoid survived. When the Homo sapiens (possibly even the Homo Neanderthals) roamed the earth, GODS WERE BORN!!!! But the Gods were scary, and to be feared. Moreover, there where Gods everywhere; there were tree gods, volcano gods, water gods, etc… Those who didn’t have a since of any kind of scary super being are now all dead because they didn’t stay away from the tree god that happened to be hiding a bare or what ever. Religion, a survival mechanism.

Another theory of why all humans have a since of religion. Something new to Homo sapiens, we have a since of time. This is may be why H. Sapiens survived and the H. Neanderthals did not. During rough times, the H. Sapiens could predict what they would need in the future to survive, and the H. Neanderthals could not. With this since of time, one might thing, “So, what happens to me when I die?” or “What happened before I was born?” And the afterlife is born!!!

One more “atheistic” theory of how religion came to be. Self-preservation, a horrible fear of self’s existence coming to a halt could be why all humans have religion. Having been an atheist, I came to the realization that after life there could be NOTHING, and truly coming to this realization can create some uncomfortable anxiety. So, religion could be a wall between the mind and that anxiety.

And finally, a religious point of view. Religion is some kind of mechanism that helps humans cope with this reality, but that was Gods plan. Muslims believe that religion and truth is built into the soul of humans (Correct me if I am wrong). Maybe it was all part of some plan to have humans as religious creatures, and that anxiety is like a street sign that points people into the right direction.

[czgibson]

Greetings iLL_LeaT,

Firstly, where do you get your name from?!

Secondly, I can see there's a lot of sense in what you say. The idea that religion is a survival mechanism is definitely one that is common currency among evolutionary biologists.

The other theories you mention are also aspects of Durkheim's theory of religion, which I mentioned above. The foremost of these is the idea of fear of the unknown, which you connected with the human sense of time giving rise to belief in the afterlife.

You also mention the "religion is a comfort" argument, which is quite intuitive.

I think I may not have been clear in my phrasing - I mentioned social control, which you seem to have interpreted in a purely political sense. That is part of it, but only at a more advanced level. The basic form of control is the moral code, and only later does this give rise to politics. The point is that god (or gods) is / are the moral enforcer(s) that have to be appeased though good behaviour, sacrifice and rituals - this is closer to the idea I had in mind when I referred to "social control".

Either way, we've wandered off topic, so apologies to the mods. We seem to have got back to the Development of Theism.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:peace:

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

:peace:

[snakelegs]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:peace:

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

:peace:

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please :)


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah :(

:peace:

[Ghazi]

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please :)


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah :(

:peace:

:sl:

You feeling okey bro your quoting and talking to your self ;D

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

You feeling okey bro your quoting and talking to your self ;D

:salamext:

LOL i quoted myself becoz i wanted the disbelievers to answer my question which is:

Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

[czgibson]

Greetings Abd'Majid,

I need to ask, Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??

Do you mean me?

If so, I'd say that while I consider god to be a fictional character, I do believe that the people you mention did actually exist. The one I know most about is Jesus, who is mentioned in independent historical records. I believe he has been misrepresented by orthodox Christianity (e.g. he never mentioned the trinity, as Muslims are fond of pointing out). As for the other prophets, I see no reason to doubt their existence, except in the case of Adam, who is part of what I regard as a creation myth.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings Abd'Majid,


Do you mean me?

If so, I'd say that while I consider god to be a fictional character, I do believe that the people you mention did actually exist. The one I know most about is Jesus, who is mentioned in independent historical records. I believe he has been misrepresented by orthodox Christianity (e.g. he never mentioned the trinity, as Muslims are fond of pointing out). As for the other prophets, I see no reason to doubt their existence, except in the case of Adam, who is part of what I regard as a creation myth.

Peace

:peace:

So how do u justify the same message which all these Prophets hav preached? To worship one God?

Moses/Abraham/Jesus/Muhammad/David - All preached to worship only one God....

Also why is it that when prophets such as Noah were never followed they never gave up? Well... that question only applies if you believe in the existence of Noah...

:peace: :)

PS: Thanks for Answering, Appreciate it!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If I was given proof that heaven and hell do not exist and proof that there will be no day of reckoning, I would tend towards being extremely hedonistic. After all I only live once, I would want the best possible life.

Given that that is your view, would it surprise you to meet an atheist who was not utterly venal, lustful, murderous and hedonistic? Is your belief in the afterlife the only thing that prevents you from committing all sorts of sins / crimes?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Given that that is your view, would it surprise you to meet an atheist who was not utterly venal, lustful, murderous and hedonistic? Is your belief in the afterlife the only thing that prevents you from committing all sorts of sins / crimes?

Peace

:peace:

im sure we would still hav moral values, but we would try to hav the best of this life... be the richest, have the best spouse etc... i dont kno... it doesnt feel right..


:peace:

[iLL_LeaT]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

i gess i wud make most of this life...

Interesting!

I think there could be a hell, and I think there could be no hell at all. Let me pretend that I was a Christian that just found out that there is no possible way there could be a hell (I saw it on CNN or something :p). What would I do? Oh my god, I could go out and murder everyone, right? LOL – NO!!! I would have still been brought up with Christian morals. I would still have a since of right and wrong (A Christian point of view of right and wrong). I would probably live life the same way as before, just knowing that I was not going to hell.

Just because you don’t think there is any kind of punishment after life doesn’t make you a bad person. And if someone does do something immoral, there are still punishments in this life.

[snakelegs]

I shall answer yours and you answer mine please :)


Hmm.. Good question.... Wel ur saying theres no afterlife... so i gess i wud make most of this life... Astagfirullah :(

:peace:

fair enough.
no, i am not saying there is no afterlife - i have no belief about afterlife one way or the other.
your 2nd question "Do you both consider the prophets to be characters of fiction? Im talking about jesus, moses, MUHAMMAD (saws)??"
i would have to answer the same way - i don't know so i don't consider them to be prophets or fiction either.
this is what makes an agnostic.
i have been asked many times in my life: if you don't belong to a religion, what keeps you from killing people?, etc etc
so this makes me wonder if people who believe in an afterlife only behave decently because they're afraid of eternal punishment.
what do you think?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Interesting!
What would I do? Oh my god, I could go out and murder everyone, right? LOL – NO!!! .

:peace:

LOL no ofcourse not, theres still something called the "electric chair" :p

i have been asked many times in my life: if you don't belong to a religion, what keeps you from killing people?, etc etc
so this makes me wonder if people who believe in an afterlife only behave decently because they're afraid of eternal punishment.
what do you think?

No, its sence of right and wrong which prevents everyone from doing bad deeds! For example, at work i do all the heavy lifting coz the ladies cant, even if they were to offer i wouldnt feel right letting them (sence!!).
BUT the difference is i think that this sence of right and wrong is spiritually influenced.... Well thats what i think :).

For example how would you term someone very cruel to his parents? "Evil" right? Whats Evil? Someone who Sins a lot right? What are sins?

Sin - A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

Doesnt it seem spiritually influenced :D

:peace:

[- Qatada -]

Each person has their own opinions and ways. For instance, a person who only believes that there is only one life would probably choose to make the most out of it. Hence, if theres an opportunity to get hold of $1000 dollars thats within your grasp, you may feel that nobody is watching over you, so you grip it because you feel that theres not much consequences to it, plus you'd rather get it quick instead of having to work tirelessly for ages to earn that much.

One of the only reasons a person wouldn't get it may be because either the person has high morals at an extreme level, or the person may feel that they may get busted, or they may feel that God is watching them - this is why having taqwa (God consciessness) is the most best of qualities to have within islam. And God even mentions in the Qur'an that the ones that have the most taqwa are the best among mankind. (refer to Qur'an 49:13)


Islam isn't strange because most of the acts within it are so that there is no injustice within the earth, but some people prefer their own desires over others. They prefer themselves and are hasty to get what they can before that death approaches them. If the person doesn't believe in God or the hereafter, then they will try to hasten to do all that they can to gain that little enjoyment they can.

This is why we as muslims believe that this life is only temporary, because everyone believes death to be real - but there is a reason for death, and there is a purpose in life. We will gather wealth, but we don't keep wealth just to store it - but its to spend to help the ones that are needy i.e. family, yourself and even the poor. And every action we do, there is a reason for it, so the same way people are responsible for their actions in this world, the same way everyone will return to the Lord who created them, and they will be responsible for their actions again. The ones who used it for the sake of pleasing their Lord, they will be rewarded with a more fuller reward which is an eternal paradise, but the ones who rejected their Merciful Lord who created them will be punished due to their rejection of Him and His signs.


That's just an opinion anyway. :)


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Chuck]

a question for those who believe in heaven and hell:
if you were given proof (which of course is impossible, but just for the sake of the question) that heaven and hell don't exist - would you live your lives any differently?

Well, I think it won't be exactly the same. The question is rather vague, because non-existence of heaven or hell doesn't mean non-existence of God or afterlife. However, if I just take it as it is (only non-existence of heaven or hell) than I think it won't be exactly the same but not much different either. I would still worship Allah, follow his commandments, and try to be righteous... perhaps more frequently fall into small sins, perhaps not because even though I believe in heaven or hell I still fall into smaller sins quite easily, but I look forward for the mercy of Allah.

Allaah Almighty knows best

[iLL_LeaT]

Each person has their own opinions and ways. For instance, a person who only believes that there is only one life would probably choose to make the most out of it. Hence, if theres an opportunity to get hold of $1000 dollars thats within your grasp, you may feel that nobody is watching over you, so you grip it because you feel that theres not much consequences to it, plus you'd rather get it quick instead of having to work tirelessly for ages to earn that much.

No completely true.

I have a deep compaction for the wellbeing of others.

Now, if I saw $1000 sitting on a table, I would not take it because it would hurt the people that I was stealing it from, not because of fear of punishment here or anywhere.

However, I would take it if I needed it to survive. As would anyone (I think). But because I’m not THAT strapped for cash, I wouldn’t take it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No completely true.

I have a deep compaction for the wellbeing of others.

Now, if I saw $1000 sitting on a table, I would not take it because it would hurt the people that I was stealing it from, not because of fear of punishment here or anywhere.

However, I would take it if I needed it to survive. As would anyone (I think). But because I’m not THAT strapped for cash, I wouldn’t take it.

:peace:

what makes u do good? What gives you that sence of right and wrong? Can you explain it?

:peace:

[iLL_LeaT]

:peace:

what makes u do good? What gives you that sence of right and wrong? Can you explain it?

:peace:

You know, I have thought about that question before, and I’m not 100% sure. Well, for one, I think humans have a natural since of right and wrong. Furthermore, I think that people truly try to always do the right thing. But if my moral status came from anywhere but myself, it most likely came from my government and its laws. Incidentally, my government was founded by Christian morals, so I probably get my morals from the Christians. And yes – Christian morals are upheld by the fear of hell, so hidden deep in my moral beliefs is the fear of hell, even though I don’t see it.

But who knows, you know?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

You know, I have thought about that question before, and I’m not 100% sure. Well, for one, I think humans have a natural since of right and wrong. Furthermore, I think that people truly try to always do the right thing. But if my moral status came from anywhere but myself, it most likely came from my government and its laws. Incidentally, my government was founded by Christian morals, so I probably get my morals from the Christians. And yes – Christian morals are upheld by the fear of hell, so hidden deep in my moral beliefs is the fear of hell, even though I don’t see it.

But who know, you know?

:peace:

You wont accept wat i believe to know, I think the more sins you commit the worser of a person you become, the more good deeds you do, the better of a person you become. I also reckon wivout the influence of God, you have no chance of being good (i mean wivout his permission).

:peace:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Furthermore, I think that people truly try to always do the right thing. ?

:peace:

i disagree with this, If people always tried to do the right thing the world would be a good place, some poeple are so use to the wrong that they just "LIKE" to do the wrong thing.. it seems normal! For example i think dating, and fornication is disgusting and wrong but you may not! You may see it as natural


:peace:

[iLL_LeaT]

i disagree with this, If people always tried to do the right thing the world would be a good place, some poeple are so use to the wrong that they just "LIKE" to do the wrong thing.. it seems normal! For example i think dating, and fornication is disgusting and wrong but you may not! You may see it as natural

Here is a question. Because I think it is okay for people to date (I don’t know what you think “dating” is, but to me it is meeting people to figure out if they are compatible life partners), when I die and am judged by Allah, will I go to hell for doing what I think is normal?

I have heard many people claim that Allah’s judgment is on an individual basis. Maybe dating would be okay for me, but not you, maybe?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Here is a question. Because I think it is okay for people to date (I don’t know what you think “dating” is, but to me it is meeting people to figure out if they are compatible life partners), when I die and am judged by Allah, will I go to hell for doing what I think is normal?

I have heard many people claim that Allah’s judgment is on an individual basis. Maybe dating would be okay for me, but not you, maybe?

:peace:

theres a requirement to get into heaven:

Verily Man is in loss Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

you need faith (to believe in Allah, you need to do righteous deeds, you need to preach the truth, and you need patience and all this needs to be constant!!!

Unless you meet that requirement, Allah knows best of how you will judged...

:peace:

[iLL_LeaT]

:peace:

theres a requirement to get into heaven:

Verily Man is in loss Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

you need faith (to believe in Allah, you need to do righteous deeds, you need to preach the truth, and you need patience and all this needs to be constant!!!

Unless you meet that requirement, Allah knows best of how you will judged...

:peace:

I’m confused

So, if I met those requirements, I get into heaven. And if I don’t… then it is up to Allah.

So does that mean that if I don’t fallow the Islamic ideology, I may still get into heaven, or is that just a nice way of saying I’m going to hell?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I’m confused

So, if I met those requirements, I get into heaven. And if I don’t… then it is up to Allah.

So does that mean that if I don’t fallow the Islamic ideology, I may still get into heaven, or is that just a nice way of saying I’m going to hell?

:peace:


What i meant by "it is up2 Allah" is its up to him how he will punish you... cos you certainly aint getting into heaven if you dont meet that requirement "GULP".

:peace:

[iLL_LeaT]

What i meant by "it is up2 Allah" is its up to him how he will punish you... cos you certainly aint getting into heaven if you dont meet that requirement "GULP".

Still confused

So is there anything besides hell and heaven? If it is up to him how I will be punished, and I don’t go to hell, then what. Do I spend every other Thursday in hell, or something?

I’m sorry if I sound stupid, I just want to understand.

[snakelegs]

No, its sence of right and wrong which prevents everyone from doing bad deeds! For example, at work i do all the heavy lifting coz the ladies cant, even if they were to offer i wouldnt feel right letting them (sence!!).
BUT the difference is i think that this sence of right and wrong is spiritually influenced.... Well thats what i think :).

For example how would you term someone very cruel to his parents? "Evil" right? Whats Evil? Someone who Sins a lot right? What are sins?

Sin - A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

Doesnt it seem spiritually influenced :D

:peace:

good question! i think we have an innate knowledge of good and bad, but i don't know where it comes from. it could be spiritual. i wasn't raised in any religion so it doesn't come from any religious moral code.
i try not to do bad stuff for selfish reasons - i like to feel good about myself and when i do something wrong, i feel bad.
the other thing is that it just seems like common sense not to do anything to anyone that you wouldn't want them to do to you.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Still confused

So is there anything besides hell and heaven? If it is up to him how I will be punished, and I don’t go to hell, then what. Do I spend every other Thursday in hell, or something?

I’m sorry if I sound stupid, I just want to understand.

:peace:

Sry for the late reply!

Well unfortunately theres only two options, you either go to heaven or hell. What i meant is its up2 him how he punishes you is theres levels of punishment, theres 8 hells i believe and 7 heavens.... someone plz correct me if im wrong.

:peace:

i try not to do bad stuff for selfish reasons - i like to feel good about myself and when i do something wrong, i feel bad.

:peace:

Havent you ever wondered what it is that actually puts these feelings inside you? Or do you think science will be able to explain it?

:peace:

[- Qatada -]

The biggest sin a person can ever commit is that they worship others besides their Creator, and their Creator is God - Allaah.

No matter how good the person is, and even if the person does believe there is a higher Being i.e. God - they still have to believe in Laa illaaha illAllaah (there is none worthy of worship except God/Allaah (alone.)) And this message has always been the message since the beginning of mankind, and every messenger that came told the people to follow this, but man kept going astray.


Believing that no-one is worthy of worship except Allaah means that people have to give up other deities besides God (i.e. idols, humans i.e. Jesus [peace be upon him], or even a form of law besides the law of God, which may be taking the laws of someone who governs in a way that opposes the commandments of God in the Qur'an [the speech of God] and Sunnah [ways of God's messenger])

If a person takes these ideoligies as a way of life instead of submitting themselves to God (i.e. muslim means submitter and islam means submission) - they may be taking others as associates with God because they are accepting a man made law instead of the divine law which God revealed to mankind in the Qur'an and Sunnah.


Therefore, the above example may be a form associating partners with God and the person may be commiting the biggest sin that ever exists - & that is associating others as partners with God, because the person feels that the man made law is superior to the law of God, and this is why they may be following it.


If a person believes in the above two examples, then they also have to believe in Allaah Almighty and His Attributes (Asma - wal-Sifaa.) This is believing in Allaah being the Perfect Being, and believing in the meanings of the names of Allaah which are mentioned in the Qur'an i.e.

Allah - Allah, He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities.

Al-Malik - The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.

Al-Mu'min - Guardian of Faith, The One who witnessed for Himself that no one is God but Him. And He witnessed for His believers that they are truthful in their belief that no one is God but Him.

You can click on this text to view the 99 Names of Allaah Almighty and the meanings.

If one grasps these 3 ideas of Tawheed (the Oneness of God) - then they have believed in Laaillaaha illAllaah (there is none worthy of worship except Allaah.) And hence they should believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is God's/Allaah Almighty's final messenger.

If the person believes this and obeys Allaah in this, then they are muslim (submitters) to God. However this is just a small summary, so you may want to ask for more info. if you're interested.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


If theres any mistakes, its from myself and my sins - all good comes from Allaah Almighty.


Peace.

[Phil12123]

[QUOTE=Abd'Majid;376630]theres a requirement to get into heaven:

Verily Man is in loss Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

you need faith (to believe in Allah, you need to do righteous deeds, you need to preach the truth, and you need patience and all this needs to be constant!!!

Unless you meet that requirement, Allah knows best of how you will judged.../QUOTE]

Requirements to get into heaven.. according to Muslims, according to Christians, according to Jews, according to...anyone else who would like to give their understanding to it... I started a new thread to discuss this very thing. Go to it and post your ideas on the subject:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...go-heaven.html

Peace

[------]

Still confused

So is there anything besides hell and heaven? If it is up to him how I will be punished, and I don’t go to hell, then what. Do I spend every other Thursday in hell, or something?

I’m sorry if I sound stupid, I just want to understand.

If u do not believe in Allah u go to hell...simple as.

[yoke]

absolutely not. Allah promises hell for the non-belivers, an he is the best at fulfilling his promises.
This is the point where asking too many questions becomes harmful, brother

This sums up what religion is all about FEAR
There is no hell to fear or heaven to enter

[- Qatada -]

Hi yoke.


You might have realised that Allaah Almighty threatens mankind of hellfire if they disobey Him, and this is why people are afraid to disobey God. What's the point of having a God who lets you do whatever evil you want in this world, then giving you paradise in return for it?

At the same time, those who don't want to do evil and want to obey Allaah Almighty - they will be rewarded equally for it. And if you feel that Allaah Almighty is evil for threatening mankind - then just think about it, Allaah could easily threaten you of hellfire and not reward anyone with paradise either.


If you feel that there is no afterlife, its upto you to believe that - but realise that you have no knowledge of what will happen to you after you die, by then its too late, and theres no turning back. You have your temporary life right now, and this is why we're here - to obey Allaah Almighty alone. If we do this, then we are promised an eternal paradise insha'Allaah (God willing.)

No matter how hard you try turning away from death - it will come to you no matter where you are. So please think deep before its too late, and there is no turning back. Because those who reject their Creator - are promished hellfire forever, whereas those who obey Allaah Almighty in this temporary world and die in that state are promised paradise forever.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Phil12123]

Hi yoke. You might have realised that Allaah Almighty threatens mankind of hellfire if they disobey Him, and this is why people are afraid to disobey God. What's the point of having a God who lets you do whatever evil you want in this world, then giving you paradise in return for it?

At the same time, those who don't want to do evil and want to obey Allaah Almighty - they will be rewarded equally for it. And if you feel that Allaah Almighty is evil for threatening mankind - then just think about it, Allaah could easily threaten you of hellfire and not reward anyone with paradise either.

If you feel that there is no afterlife, its upto you to believe that - but realise that you have no knowledge of what will happen to you after you die, by then its too late, and theres no turning back. You have your temporary life right now, and this is why we're here - to obey Allaah Almighty alone. If we do this, then we are promised an eternal paradise insha'Allaah (God willing.)

No matter how hard you try turning away from death - it will come to you no matter where you are. So please think deep before its too late, and there is no turning back. Because those who reject their Creator - are promished hellfire forever, whereas those who obey Allaah Almighty in this temporary world and die in that state are promised paradise forever.

Please come and put these thoughts in the new thread I started at:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...go-heaven.html

I want to get at least 10 or 20 posts there before I make any comments there myself.

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Sure Phil, insha'Allaah. :)

[yoke]

Do not fear there is no hell
Even if there was i would rather go there than worship an evil dictator god.

[Woodrow]

Do not fear there is no hell
Even if there was i would rather go there than worship an evil dictator god.

Interesting thought. Even more interesting is I agree with you. I would not worship an evil dictator god either.



Fortunatly, Allah(swt) has not revealed himself to be an evil dictator God, and I am very comfortable to worship Him(swt) and seek to avoid the evil dictator shaitan who, does rule over hell.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Fortunatly, Allah(swt) has not revealed himself to be an evil dictator God, and I am very comfortable to worship Him(swt) and seek to avoid the evil dictator shaitan who, does rule over hell.

Allah does dictate quite a lot though, doesn't he? Is there any religion filled with more rules, prohibitions and warnings than Islam?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Interesting thought. Even more interesting is I agree with you. I would not worship an evil dictator god either.



Fortunatly, Allah(swt) has not revealed himself to be an evil dictator God, and I am very comfortable to worship Him(swt) and seek to avoid the evil dictator shaitan who, does rule over hell.

he rules over hell? Really? I thought theres an Angel who rules over hell and the shaytaan will burn?

:salamext:

[- Qatada -]

Greetings,


Allah does dictate quite a lot though, doesn't he? Is there any religion filled with more rules, prohibitions and warnings than Islam?

Peace

Maybe these prohibitions are there to protect mankind as a whole? And why should we as humans have a right over what our Creator orders us to do?

That's the thing i dont understand. Alot of people feel that they are more powerful and have a higher right than God, so they should be able to decide what is permissible and what isn't. Whereas if the people really believed in God - they would be aware of what He has permitted for them, and what He has made haraam for them. And if they obey their Creator - they will be rewarded, whereas those who go against the commands of Allaah - they may end up in the hellfire.


Why is it that mankind fears the law of the government or their nation, but when the command of their own Creator is ordered upon them - they feel that its nothing and they feel that they have a right to object to it?


If people loved Allaah Almighty, they would love to obey Him and hate to disobey Him. If they were sincere in this - they are promised paradise. It's that simple, and thats what we believe as muslims.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[- Qatada -]

he rules over hell? Really? I thought theres an Angel who rules over hell and the shaytaan will burn?

:salamext:

:salamext:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 462:

Narrated Ibn Abbas (may Allaah Almighty be pleased with him):

The Prophet of Allaah Almighty (peace be upon him) said, "On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, I saw Moses who was a tall brown curly-haired man as if he was one of the men of Shan'awa tribe, and I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair. I also saw Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire and Ad-Dajjal amongst the signs which Allah showed me." (The Prophet then recited the Holy Verse): "So be not you in doubt of meeting him' when you met Moses during the night of Mi'raj over the heavens" (Qur'an 32:23)

:wasalamex

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Allah does dictate quite a lot though, doesn't he? Is there any religion filled with more rules, prohibitions and warnings than Islam?

Peace

is ur guardian to be blamed for stopping you from goin into the jungle, for preventing you from riding a bike without your helmet, for teaching you to abide by the rules lest other people mock and abuse you, for Providing you all that is good and forbidding all that is evil.

Only pride and ignorance causes men to believe he knows what is best for him and others alike.

:peace:

[Woodrow]

he rules over hell? Really? I thought theres an Angel who rules over hell and the shaytaan will burn?

:salamext:

My error, in using the word rule. It is true shaitan will burn, however at the present time he would desire to lead us to Hell with him. That was my concept of ruler, as a leader.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

My error, in using the word rule. It is true shaitan will burn, however at the present time he would desire to lead us to Hell with him. That was my concept of ruler, as a leader.

i see bro, jazakAllah khair 4 the clarification :)

:salamext:

[Woodrow]

Greetings,


Allah does dictate quite a lot though, doesn't he? Is there any religion filled with more rules, prohibitions and warnings than Islam?

Peace

Dosen't dictate mean: without choice?

Yes we have many rules. prohibitions and warnings. Yet, they are really no different then any of the other rules of the universe. For example: even without it being written I am quite certain the laws of biology would prevent me from holding my breath for two hours. No matter how badly I want to. The laws of our Religion actually give us more freedom then less. We have freedom to make our choices, We also have the knowledge of the cosequences of our choices.

[Phil12123]

Maybe these prohibitions are there to protect mankind as a whole? And why should we as humans have a right over what our Creator orders us to do?

That's the thing i dont understand. Alot of people feel that they are more powerful and have a higher right than God, so they should be able to decide what is permissible and what isn't. Whereas if the people really believed in God - they would be aware of what He has permitted for them, and what He has made haraam for them. And if they obey their Creator - they will be rewarded, whereas those who go against the commands of Allaah - they may end up in the hellfire.

Why is it that mankind fears the law of the government or their nation, but when the command of their own Creator is ordered upon them - they feel that its nothing and they feel that they have a right to object to it?

If people loved Allaah Almighty, they would love to obey Him and hate to disobey Him. If they were sincere in this - they are promised paradise. It's that simple, and thats what we believe as muslim.

Very interesting thoughts. This is the sort of thing I would like you to post in my new thread at http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...go-heaven.html. And if you can, please quote the Quran (the precise verses there) that promise that paradise and exactly what the promises are (conditions, etc.).

Peace