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Abdul-Raouf
06-20-2006, 12:35 PM
101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible

Author: Shabir Ally
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
• God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
• Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
• Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?
• Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
• Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
• Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
• Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
• Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
• Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
• Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?
• Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
• Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?
• Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
• Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?
• After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
• Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?
• Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
• Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
11. When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
• One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)
• Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)
12. How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
• Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
• Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)
13. In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
• Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)
• Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)
14. How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?
• Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)
• Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
15. Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
• Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)
• Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)
16. Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?
• Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)
• Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)
17. How many were the children of Zattu?
• Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)
• Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
18. How many were the children of Azgad?
• One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12)
• Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17)
19. How many were the children of Adin?
• Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15)
• Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20)
20. How many were the children of Hashum?
• Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19)
• Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22)
21. How many were the children of Bethel and Ai?
• Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28)
• One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32)
22. Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
• 29,818 (Ezra)
• 31,089 (Nehemiah)
23. How many singers accompanied the assembly?
• Two hundred (Ezra 2:65)
• Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67)
24. What was the name of King Abijah’s mother?
• Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)
• Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)
25. Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?
• Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)
• No (Joshua 15:63)
26. Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?
• Jacob (Matthew 1:16)
• Hell (Luke 3:23)
27. Jesus descended from which son of David?
• Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
• Nathan(Luke3:31)
28. Who was the father of Shealtiel?
• Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)
• Neri’ (Luke 3:27)
29. Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ?
• Abiud (Matthew 1: 13)
• Rhesa (Luke 3:27) But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: i.Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v.Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (I Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anyway.
30. Who was the father of Uzziah?
• Joram (Matthew 1:8)
• Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1)
31. Who was the father of Jechoniah?
• Josiah (Matthew 1:11)
• Jeholakim (I Chronicles 3:16)
32. How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?
• Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)
• But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)
33. Who was the father of Shelah?
• Cainan (Luke 3:35-36)
• Arphaxad (Genesis II: 12)
34. Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come?
• Yes (Matthew II: 14, 17:10-13)
• No (John 1:19-21)
35. Would Jesus inherit David’s throne?
• Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32)
• No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David’s throne (Jeremiah 36:30)
36. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?
• One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). “And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.”
• Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). “They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.”
37. How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
• By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
• His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
38. Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew?
• By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)
• On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)
39. When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus’ daughter already dead?
• Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, “My daughter has just died.”
• No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death.”
40. Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?
• Yes (Mark 6:8)
• No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)
41. Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?
• Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)
• No (Luke 9:9)
42. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?
• Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
• No (John 1:32,33)
43. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?
• Yes (John 1:32, 33)
• No (Matthew 11:2)
44. According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
• “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
• “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)
45. When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?
• Yes (Matthew 21:12)
• No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17)
46. The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?
• Yes. (Matthew 21:19)
• No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
47. Did Judas kiss Jesus?
• Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
• No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
48. What did Jesus say about Peter’s denial?
• “The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times” (John 13:38)
• “Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times” (Mark 14:30) . When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.
49. Did Jesus bear his own cross?
• Yes (John 19:17)
• No (Matthew 27:31-32)
50. Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?
• Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark lS:37-38)
• No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)
51. Did Jesus say anything secretly?
• No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)
• Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)
52. Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
• On the cross (Mark 15:23)
• In Pilate’s court (John 19:14)
53. The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus?
• Yes (Mark 15:32)
• No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)
54. Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?
• Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)
• No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17)
55. When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?
• Yes (Acts9:7)
• No (Acts22:9)
56. When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?
• Yes (Acts 26:14)
• No (Acts 9:7)
57. Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul’s duties were to be?
• Yes (Acts 26:16-18)
• No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9:7;22: 10)
58. When the Israelites dwelt in ****tin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague?
• Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9)
• Twenty-three thousand (I Corinthians 10:8)
59. How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt?
• Seventy souls (Genesis 4 & 27)
• Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14)
60. What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?
• He bought a field (Acts 1: 18)
• He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)
61. How did Judas die?
• After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)
• After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)
62. Why is the field called “Field of Blood”?
• Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8)
• Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19)
63. Who is a ransom for whom?
• “The Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). “Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all... “(I Timothy 2:5-6)
• “The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright” (Proverbs 21:18)
64. Is the law of Moses useful?
• Yes. “All scripture is... profitable...” (2 Timothy 3:16)
• No. “. . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... “(Hebrews 7:18)
65. What was the exact wording on the cross?
• “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37)
• “The King of the Jews” (Mark 15:26)
• “This is the King of the Jews” (Luke 23:38)
• “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19)
66. Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?
• Yes (Matthew 14:5)
• No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)
67. Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?
• Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)
• Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke’s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)
68. Jesus saw a man sitat the tax collector’s office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name?
• Matthew (Matthew 9:9)
• Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)
69. Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?
• After (Mark 14:12-17)
• Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate’s judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)
70. Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
• Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
• No. (John 12:27)
71. In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did ‘he move away from his disciples to pray?
• Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)
• One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46)
72. Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer?
• Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)
• Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)
73. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?
• “Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)
• “Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)
74. When Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me ? ” in what language did he speak?
• Hebrew: the words are “Eloi, Eloi …..“(Matthew 27:46)
• Aramaic: the words are “Eloi, Eloi ….. “(Mark 15:34)
75. According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?
• “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” (Luke 23:46)
• "It is finished" (John 19:30)
76. When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?
• Yes (Matthew 8:5)
• No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)
77.
• Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)
• Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)
78.
• God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)
• Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)
79. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
• No (John 3:13)
• Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)
80. Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread?
• Abiathar (Mark 2:26)
• Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (I Samuel 1:1; 22:20)
81. Was Jesus’ body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs?
• Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40)
• No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices “so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus)” (Mark 16: 1)
82. When did the women buy the spices?
• After “the Sabbath was past” (Mark 16:1)
• Before the Sabbath. The women “prepared spices and ointments.” Then, “on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23:55 to 24:1)
83. At what time of day did the women visit the tomb?
• “Toward the dawn” (Matthew 28: 1)
• “When the sun had risen” (Mark 16:2)
84. What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb?
• To anoint Jesus’ body with spices (Mark 16: 1; Luke 23:55 to 24: 1)
• To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28: 1)
• For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the Sabbath (John 20: 1)
85. A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived?
• They saw that the stone was “Rolled back” (Mark 16:4) They found the stone “rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:2) They saw that “the stone had been taken away from the tomb” (John 20:1)
• As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)
86. Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus’ body?
• Yes. “A young man in a white robe” (Mark 16:5). “Two men ... in dazzling apparel” later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)
• No. Mary met no one and returned saying, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him” (John 20:2)
87. When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?
• Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9)
• On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus’ body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him “Teacher.” Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me...” (John 20:11 to 17)
88. What was Jesus’ instruction for his disciples?
• “Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Matthew 2 8: 10)
• “Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God” (John 20:17)
89. When did the disciples return to Galilee?
• Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee “some doubted” (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist
• After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:3 3). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them “during forty days” (Acts 1:3), and “charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise ... “(Acts 1:4)
90. To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?
• “To the Ishmaelites” (Genesis 37:28)
• “To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh” (Genesis 37:36)
91. Who brought Joseph to Egypt?
• The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then “took Joseph to Egypt” (Genesis 37:28)
• “The Midianites had sold him in Egypt” (Genesis 37:36)
• Joseph said to his brothers “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt” (Genesis 45:4)
92. Does God change his mind?
• Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
• No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)
• Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:
i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)
“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)
ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).
iii. (Lots of other such references).
93. The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the magicians did the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat:
• Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21)
• The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.
94. Who killed Goliath?
• David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)
• Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)
95. Who killed Saul?
• “Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)
• An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)
96. Does every man sin?
• Yes. “There is no man who does not sin” (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
• No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. “Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). “We should be called children of God; and so we are” (I John 3: 1). “He who loves is born of God” (I John 4:7). “No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God” (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8)
97. Who will bear whose burden?
• “Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2)
• “Each man will have to bear his own load” (Galatians 6:5)
98. How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?
• Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
• Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)
99. Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
• After his baptism, “the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
• Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)
100. Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?
• Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
• No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)
101. When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
• They worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33)
• “They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened” (Mark 6:51-52)

Source: SunnahOnline
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Abdul-Raouf
06-20-2006, 12:37 PM
101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible

Author: Shabir Ally
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
• God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
• Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
• Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?
• Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
• Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
• Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
• Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
• Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
• Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
• Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?
• Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
• Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?
• Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
• Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?
• After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
• Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?
• Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
• Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
11. When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
• One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)
• Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)
12. How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
• Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
• Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)
13. In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
• Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)
• Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)
14. How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?
• Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)
• Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
15. Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
• Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)
• Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)
16. Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?
• Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)
• Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)
17. How many were the children of Zattu?
• Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)
• Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
18. How many were the children of Azgad?
• One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12)
• Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17)
19. How many were the children of Adin?
• Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15)
• Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20)
20. How many were the children of Hashum?
• Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19)
• Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22)
21. How many were the children of Bethel and Ai?
• Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28)
• One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32)
22. Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
• 29,818 (Ezra)
• 31,089 (Nehemiah)
23. How many singers accompanied the assembly?
• Two hundred (Ezra 2:65)
• Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67)
24. What was the name of King Abijah’s mother?
• Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)
• Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)
25. Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?
• Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)
• No (Joshua 15:63)
26. Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?
• Jacob (Matthew 1:16)
• Hell (Luke 3:23)
27. Jesus descended from which son of David?
• Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
• Nathan(Luke3:31)
28. Who was the father of Shealtiel?
• Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)
• Neri’ (Luke 3:27)
29. Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ?
• Abiud (Matthew 1: 13)
• Rhesa (Luke 3:27) But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: i.Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v.Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (I Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anyway.
30. Who was the father of Uzziah?
• Joram (Matthew 1:8)
• Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1)
31. Who was the father of Jechoniah?
• Josiah (Matthew 1:11)
• Jeholakim (I Chronicles 3:16)
32. How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?
• Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)
• But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)
33. Who was the father of Shelah?
• Cainan (Luke 3:35-36)
• Arphaxad (Genesis II: 12)
34. Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come?
• Yes (Matthew II: 14, 17:10-13)
• No (John 1:19-21)
35. Would Jesus inherit David’s throne?
• Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32)
• No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David’s throne (Jeremiah 36:30)
36. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?
• One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). “And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.”
• Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). “They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.”
37. How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
• By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
• His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
38. Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew?
• By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)
• On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)
39. When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus’ daughter already dead?
• Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, “My daughter has just died.”
• No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death.”
40. Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?
• Yes (Mark 6:8)
• No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)
41. Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?
• Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)
• No (Luke 9:9)
42. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?
• Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
• No (John 1:32,33)
43. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?
• Yes (John 1:32, 33)
• No (Matthew 11:2)
44. According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
• “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
• “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)
45. When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?
• Yes (Matthew 21:12)
• No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17)
46. The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?
• Yes. (Matthew 21:19)
• No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
47. Did Judas kiss Jesus?
• Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
• No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
48. What did Jesus say about Peter’s denial?
• “The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times” (John 13:38)
• “Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times” (Mark 14:30) . When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.
49. Did Jesus bear his own cross?
• Yes (John 19:17)
• No (Matthew 27:31-32)
50. Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?
• Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark lS:37-38)
• No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)
51. Did Jesus say anything secretly?
• No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)
• Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)
52. Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?
• On the cross (Mark 15:23)
• In Pilate’s court (John 19:14)
53. The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus?
• Yes (Mark 15:32)
• No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)
54. Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?
• Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)
• No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17)
55. When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?
• Yes (Acts9:7)
• No (Acts22:9)
56. When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?
• Yes (Acts 26:14)
• No (Acts 9:7)
57. Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul’s duties were to be?
• Yes (Acts 26:16-18)
• No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9:7;22: 10)
58. When the Israelites dwelt in ****tin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague?
• Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9)
• Twenty-three thousand (I Corinthians 10:8)
59. How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt?
• Seventy souls (Genesis 4 & 27)
• Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14)
60. What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?
• He bought a field (Acts 1: 18)
• He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)
61. How did Judas die?
• After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)
• After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)
62. Why is the field called “Field of Blood”?
• Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8)
• Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19)
63. Who is a ransom for whom?
• “The Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). “Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all... “(I Timothy 2:5-6)
• “The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright” (Proverbs 21:18)
64. Is the law of Moses useful?
• Yes. “All scripture is... profitable...” (2 Timothy 3:16)
• No. “. . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... “(Hebrews 7:18)
65. What was the exact wording on the cross?
• “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37)
• “The King of the Jews” (Mark 15:26)
• “This is the King of the Jews” (Luke 23:38)
• “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19)
66. Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?
• Yes (Matthew 14:5)
• No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)
67. Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?
• Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)
• Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke’s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)
68. Jesus saw a man sitat the tax collector’s office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name?
• Matthew (Matthew 9:9)
• Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)
69. Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?
• After (Mark 14:12-17)
• Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate’s judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)
70. Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
• Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
• No. (John 12:27)
71. In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did ‘he move away from his disciples to pray?
• Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)
• One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46)
72. Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer?
• Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)
• Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)
73. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?
• “Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)
• “Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)
74. When Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me ? ” in what language did he speak?
• Hebrew: the words are “Eloi, Eloi …..“(Matthew 27:46)
• Aramaic: the words are “Eloi, Eloi ….. “(Mark 15:34)
75. According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?
• “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” (Luke 23:46)
• "It is finished" (John 19:30)
76. When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?
• Yes (Matthew 8:5)
• No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)
77.
• Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)
• Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)
78.
• God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)
• Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)
79. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
• No (John 3:13)
• Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)
80. Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread?
• Abiathar (Mark 2:26)
• Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (I Samuel 1:1; 22:20)
81. Was Jesus’ body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs?
• Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40)
• No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices “so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus)” (Mark 16: 1)
82. When did the women buy the spices?
• After “the Sabbath was past” (Mark 16:1)
• Before the Sabbath. The women “prepared spices and ointments.” Then, “on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23:55 to 24:1)
83. At what time of day did the women visit the tomb?
• “Toward the dawn” (Matthew 28: 1)
• “When the sun had risen” (Mark 16:2)
84. What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb?
• To anoint Jesus’ body with spices (Mark 16: 1; Luke 23:55 to 24: 1)
• To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28: 1)
• For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the Sabbath (John 20: 1)
85. A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived?
• They saw that the stone was “Rolled back” (Mark 16:4) They found the stone “rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:2) They saw that “the stone had been taken away from the tomb” (John 20:1)
• As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)
86. Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus’ body?
• Yes. “A young man in a white robe” (Mark 16:5). “Two men ... in dazzling apparel” later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)
• No. Mary met no one and returned saying, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him” (John 20:2)
87. When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?
• Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9)
• On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus’ body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him “Teacher.” Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me...” (John 20:11 to 17)
88. What was Jesus’ instruction for his disciples?
• “Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Matthew 2 8: 10)
• “Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God” (John 20:17)
89. When did the disciples return to Galilee?
• Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee “some doubted” (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist
• After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:3 3). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them “during forty days” (Acts 1:3), and “charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise ... “(Acts 1:4)
90. To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?
• “To the Ishmaelites” (Genesis 37:28)
• “To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh” (Genesis 37:36)
91. Who brought Joseph to Egypt?
• The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then “took Joseph to Egypt” (Genesis 37:28)
• “The Midianites had sold him in Egypt” (Genesis 37:36)
• Joseph said to his brothers “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt” (Genesis 45:4)
92. Does God change his mind?
• Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
• No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)
• Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:
i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)
“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)
ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).
iii. (Lots of other such references).
93. The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the magicians did the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat:
• Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21)
• The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.
94. Who killed Goliath?
• David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)
• Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)
95. Who killed Saul?
• “Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)
• An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)
96. Does every man sin?
• Yes. “There is no man who does not sin” (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
• No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. “Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). “We should be called children of God; and so we are” (I John 3: 1). “He who loves is born of God” (I John 4:7). “No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God” (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8)
97. Who will bear whose burden?
• “Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2)
• “Each man will have to bear his own load” (Galatians 6:5)
98. How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?
• Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
• Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)
99. Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
• After his baptism, “the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
• Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)
100. Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?
• Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
• No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)
101. When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
• They worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33)
• “They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened” (Mark 6:51-52)

Source: SunnahOnline
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...
06-20-2006, 12:37 PM
Jazakhallah khair for the info bro! It just proves for the millionth time that Islam is the only true religion.:)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
06-20-2006, 12:38 PM
MashaAllah, remarkable entry. I guess this should spark off an interesting debate.
W'salaam
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Trumble
06-20-2006, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
MashaAllah, remarkable entry. I guess this should spark off an interesting debate.
W'salaam
It might if we hadn't already had the same one twice in the last month!
Reply

Muezzin
06-20-2006, 10:01 PM
What the heck is with people's obsessions with these smear campaigns anyway? Good grief...
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Ghazi
06-20-2006, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
What the heck is with people's obsessions with these smear campaigns anyway? Good grief...
:sl:

They're not smear campaigns, go into a debate with a christian they'll hit you with misinterperted quran verses, it's only fair and wise we know some of their books fault so we have some ammunition to show them what they hold to be true is false.
Reply

Joe98
06-20-2006, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muzammil

45. When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?
• Yes (Matthew 21:12)
• No. He went into the temple and looked around....went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17)

Can we keep the discussion to this item.


Can anybody tell me why it matters whether he cleansed the temple one day or the next day? Do you sit up at night worrying about it?


Mathew and Mark, were 2 of the 12 disciples. They were both witnesses to the events. But they wrote their gospels many years after the events from memory.

The question of whether he cleansed the temple on one day or the next day is evidence that men have bad memories. And we can conclude that the episode actually happened.
Reply

akr4m
06-21-2006, 12:08 AM
In the name of God most gracious most merciful

:sl:

Greetings Joe

Can we keep the discussion to this item.


Can anybody tell me why it matters whether he cleansed the temple one day or the next day? Do you sit up at night worrying about it?


Mathew and Mark, were 2 of the 12 disciples. They were both witnesses to the events. But they wrote their gospels many years after the events from memory.

The question of whether he cleansed the temple on one day or the next day is evidence that men have bad memories. And we can conclude that the episode actually happened.
Hence the entire bible is not the word of God - because it contains testimonies of eyewitnesses. And as you mentioned they were written from memory and men have bad memories - therefore bible isn't accurate.

:w:
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lavikor201
06-21-2006, 12:14 AM
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
• God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
• Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
This is funny.... ;D The first one you write.... is false. It is no contradiction... lol... The very first one! Should I even read the others?

(2 Samuel 24:1) - "Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

(1 Chronicles 21:1) - "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."


Is this a contradiction? Not at all. In 2 Samuel 24:1, G-d incited David to number Israel because G-d was angry with David. Ultimately, G-d wanted to teach David not to trust in his number of fighting men, but to trust in Him. So, He moved to let David count the fighting men of Israel. He used Satan to do it.

In Judaism satan is not the same as you may think he is.... Satan is a servent of G-d. Satan does what G-d tells him to do.

The word satan means "challenger", "difficulty", or "distraction" (note that it is not a proper name). With the leading ha- to make haSatan, it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. HaSatan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. In other words, haSatan is an angel whose mission it is to add difficulty, challenges, and growth experiences to life. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.

Therefore the very first "contradiction" you made is not a contradiction at all... it is just someone who is not very educated in religion having no clue what he is talking about.

Should I even read the other ones, will they all be as clueless as your first?

Have a nice day. :)
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Joe98
06-21-2006, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by akr4m
Hence the entire bible is not the word of God

Correct! It is written by men!

This is the 18th time I have said this: The bible was written by men.

You ought to read the other threads here and learn that!

And if you research various christain web sites you can learn about the men who wrote it!

When Paul corresponded with the Corinthians, (a part of the bible) who wrote the letters?
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Joe98
06-21-2006, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by akr4m
.....therefore bible isn't accurate.....

Christains don't care whether Jesus cleaned the temple on one day or the next day, only that he cleaned the temple.

Now that it has been determined that he cleaned the temple, nobody will waste time arguing as to which day it was. Instead people will spend time building technology to improve people's lives.
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snakelegs
06-21-2006, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
In Judaism satan is not the same as you may think he is.... Satan is a servent of G-d. Satan does what G-d tells him to do.

The word satan means "challenger", "difficulty", or "distraction" (note that it is not a proper name). With the leading ha- to make haSatan, it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. HaSatan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. In other words, haSatan is an angel whose mission it is to add difficulty, challenges, and growth experiences to life. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.
very well said - good description. i think non-jews often think of satan as the same as the christian devil.
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Muslim Knight
06-21-2006, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
very well said - good description. i think non-jews often think of satan as the same as the christian devil.
On the contrary, Muslims do not take the view that shaitan is the same as Christian description of the devil. Shaitan is the creation of Allah who rebelled against Allah. He has sworn to set astray the sons of Adam (mankind) because of his jealousy of the first Man (Adam). Those who purposely disobey Allah, will find companion in the devil. Against Allah, the devil has no power.

"If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of (Allah) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him." (Q 43:36)

However, people who are god-fearing and in constant remembrance of Allah;

"Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light..." (Q 2:257)

"And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil..." (Q 15:17)



Reply

duskiness
06-21-2006, 07:14 AM
Salaam Muzammil!
Welcome to LI.
Treads about Bible are coming something like 2 times a week. Could you check them first (to make it easier for You: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...oly-bible.html)
AND IF THEN You have still questions, most of Atheists/Jewish/Buddist/Christian members will be glad to help You.
n.
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Muezzin
06-21-2006, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

They're not smear campaigns, go into a debate with a christian they'll hit you with misinterperted quran verses, it's only fair and wise we know some of their books fault so we have some ammunition to show them what they hold to be true is false.
That's all well and good. Just don't throw the first punch, as I've seen countless times (not from you in particular, you act very justly).
Reply

Umar001
06-23-2006, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
This is funny.... ;D The first one you write.... is false. It is no contradiction... lol... The very first one! Should I even read the others?

(2 Samuel 24:1) - "Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

(1 Chronicles 21:1) - "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel."


Is this a contradiction? Not at all. In 2 Samuel 24:1, G-d incited David to number Israel because G-d was angry with David. Ultimately, G-d wanted to teach David not to trust in his number of fighting men, but to trust in Him. So, He moved to let David count the fighting men of Israel. He used Satan to do it.

In Judaism satan is not the same as you may think he is.... Satan is a servent of G-d. Satan does what G-d tells him to do.

The word satan means "challenger", "difficulty", or "distraction" (note that it is not a proper name). With the leading ha- to make haSatan, it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. HaSatan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. In other words, haSatan is an angel whose mission it is to add difficulty, challenges, and growth experiences to life. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.

Therefore the very first "contradiction" you made is not a contradiction at all... it is just someone who is not very educated in religion having no clue what he is talking about.

Should I even read the other ones, will they all be as clueless as your first?

Have a nice day. :)

So in judaism satan only does what G-d tells him, Satan only Incited David because G-d told him? Do you mean Satan have freechoice, n jus choses to obey G-d?


format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Mathew and Mark, were 2 of the 12 disciples. They were both witnesses to the events.
Just wondering how did you come to the conclusion that the Authors of The Gospel According to Matthew and Mark, were 2 of the disciples?
Reply

Woodrow
08-09-2007, 01:39 PM
Just woke this up for the benefit of those who have resubmitted it as a new thread
Reply

rav
08-09-2007, 03:28 PM
So in judaism satan only does what G-d tells him, Satan only Incited David because G-d told him? Do you mean Satan have freechoice, n jus choses to obey G-d?
In Judaism satan is not a "rebel". G-d uses satan to tempt people, i.e. satan is under G-d's command.

Here is a good article on the subject:

The Christians don't understand how an angel of G-d can try to seduce people to disobey G-d, so they came to the unsupported conclusion that Satan must have rebelled against G-d.

This is completely contrary to everything Judaism believes. We reject that interpretation entirely.

What, then, does Judaism teach about Satan?

Did you ever see the movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? (It's one of the few examples of where a story from a book was changed for the screen without ruining the experience.) The story is about a very famous chocolate factory, called Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, that produces the world's greatest chocolates, candies -- confectionery in general. No one ever enters the factory, and no one ever leaves.

Mr. Wonka, the owner, runs a contest. The winners of the contest will be allowed to enter and tour the factory together. However, they will have to sign a contract and follow the rules. One of the rules is: no eating of any products inside the factory without express permission.

Afterwards, when they leave, they will go home with a lifetime supply of chocolate.That is, *IF* they follow the rules.

Five children win. They are of course all excited; TV stations and reporters interview them, and the whole world is excited with them. Now they just wait until the day they are to enter the factory and see the great wonders that no one else has ever been allowed to see.

Before the big day comes, each of the winners of the contest is secretly visited by a man named Arthur Slugworth, President of Slugworth Chocolates, Incorporated. Mr. Slugworth shows them a lot of cash, and tells them they will get all that money and more, if only they steal out of the factory a candy called an Everlasting Gobstopper. See, it hasn't been mass produced or marketed yet, and Wonka's competition wants to get an advance sample of this product so he can get it out first, and ruin Wonka.

The day comes, and all the kids are allowed into the factory with one adult relative. They see the most amazing sights, and eat the most amazing (and impossible to actually exist in real life) foods. One of the things Wonka gives each of the kids is an Everlasting Gobstopper, on the condition that they never show it to anyone else.

During the tour of the factory, four of the kids break the rules by taking stuff they should not have taken, and they all suffer the consequences. One gets all swollen up and blue from some gum she should not have taken, and they have to take her away and squeeze her until she gets skinny again. One of the kids jumps into a pool of chocolate and is sucked up into the pipes. And so on. They are all saved in the end, so don't worry, but they must leave the factory without the lifetime supply of chocolate, because they broke the rules.

Charlie, the main character, also breaks the rules. He drinks some Fizzy drink he was not supposed to take, but no one seems to know, so he doesn't say anything. He doesn't get hurt in the process, so he survives until the end of the tour.

At the end of the tour, Charlie Bucket and his grandfather are the only ones left. Mr. Wonka says good bye to them, and tells them to leave. Upset, Charlie asks him for the lifetime supply of chocolate. But Mr. Wonka has somehow found out that Charlie drank the Fizzy drink, and therefore broke the rules. Charlie will not be getting a lifetime supply of chocolate either.

Wonka yells at him for drinking the Fuzzy drink, and Charlie feels bad. But his grandfather is angry, and he tells Charlie that they'll give Mr. Slugworth an Everlasting Gobstopper.

They are about to leave, when Charlie realizes that no matter how he feels, stealing and breaking rules is bad. So he goes to Mr. Wonka's desk and returns the Gobstopper to him.

Wonka sees that, and jumps up in delight! He tells Charlie that he has won! Charlie has no idea of what he's talking about. It seems that Wonka was looking to retire, and so he set up the contest to find an honest child he could train as his successor.

Then Wonka calls in Wilkinson, his aide. And Wilkinson is Slugworth! Slugworth was sent out to each of the children to test them! To see how they would respond. Anyone who either ate food he wasn't supposed to eat or brought a Gobstopper to Slugworth was dishonest, and would not become the successor. (Okay, the parable is not exact, but I think you get my point.) Notice, also, that Wonka himself gave each of the children a Gobstopper. So he himself set up the choice, and then gave them the opportunity to break the rule, using Wilkinsin to offer the temptation.

Christians take Slugworth at face value: a reprehensible competitor who will stop at nothing to undo Wonka. And that's how they view Satan.

Jews do not see it that way, and we never have. Just as Slugworth is really Wilkinson doing what Wonka asked him to do, Satan is also not working for himself.

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "Hinderer." To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world (see my article Why did G-d Create the World?). Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil.

The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will. (See my article On the Nature of Free Will.

So, in order for us to work for the good that Hashem wants to give us, the good of the World to Come, we need something to deter us. That is the ability to do evil. Satan is our Evil Inclination (Yetzer Hara). The Evil Inclination tries to prevent us from doing good, because Hashem has commanded the Evil Inclination to do that. Why? To give us free will.

Each of us every day fights with Satan. We all have temptations, throughout the day. But we, as the Children of Israel, have the power to overcome even angels, if we work at it. Therefore, the Talmud says that men are greater than angels, for we can fight with an angel (Satan) and win.

Satan is not, as the Christians think, a rebellious angel. How impossible! The angels are spiritual and holy, without any physical or unholy presence, and the presence of Hashem's holiness permeates them entirely. Angels, unlike humans, are therefore constantly and fully aware of Hashem's Presence everywhere. Could you stay dry in the ocean? An angel could not stop being holy, and can do no wrong. There is holiness everywhere in Creation, everywhere in the universe, and angels are made of the same thing. An angel could not stop serving G-d even if he tried.

Furthermore, humans have Satan to tempt us. Angels have no Satan to tempt them. Who would be Satan's Satan? An ultra-Satan?

The truth is that Satan has a job to do, just like every other angel. And angels have no free will. They do as Hashem commands them.

A man once came to a great Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!"

The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."

Humans can improve themselves, and that is their purpose in this world. Angels, however, cannot improve themselves. That's not their purpose. Angels are therefore said to be "standing." They cannot become better, and they cannot rise any higher than they are. They are, so to speak, standing.

Isaiah, when describing a Heavenly scene, says "Seraphim were standing around Him...." (Isaiah 6:2). (Seraphim are a type of angel.) Spiritually, angels are stuck at whatever level Hashem created them.

Humans are different. Humans can rise by improving themselves. For that reason, we are described as "walkers." Therefore the Prophet Zachariah told the High Priest, "This is what Hashem, L-rd of Hosts says: if you walk in My ways, and if you observe My safeguards, you and your sons after you will be the High Priests, and you and your sons will thus guard my Holy Temple, and I will make you walkers among these who are standing" (Zachariah 3:7).

In other words, Hashem was promising the High Priest that he and his children will be High Priests, and also will merit reward in the Afterlife, in the World of Souls, where righteous people go after death.

The Prophet Zachariah was saying that in the Next World they will be walkers among the standers, which means humans among angels.

So the angels are referred to as perpetually standing, but we are movers. Our purpose is to keep on moving, to keep on improving ourselves, and to keep on rising.

And how do we do it? By constant battle with the Evil Inclination.

So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.

Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.

So, no, Satan does not wear a red suit, or carry a trident. Nor does he wear a business suit. Satan is a force of evil in the world that we must resist. Satan most often appears as a desire within you. Of course, there is no shortage of things in the world to tempt us to sin.

And Satan has many "helpers," many of whom don't even know they are helping him. A shady-looking character in the street walks over to you and offers to sell you some stolen property, for example. He's not Satan. He's someone who has not resisted Satan, and has decided to do evil. He's now trying to tempt you to sin, but not because he wants you to sin per se. He personally has something to gain from your sinning.

Whenever a human being tries to tempt another person to sin, it's because he himself feels he can gain something from it. It may be simply that he doesn't want to sin alone. Or maybe he needs your help. Or maybe he just gets emotional satisfaction out of seeing you go against what you believe (in which case he is a very sick person, but unfortunately not unusual). There could be any number of motivations.

Likewise, the snake in the Garden of Eden was not Satan either, though confused Christians think it was. The snake had his own motivations, which I will not go into now. He was what the Torah calls a "Seducer," someone who, for whatever reason, tries to get other people to sin.

How does one recognize Satan? For that we need to live a Torah life. This means a host of things that work together. To mention a few: Torah study, spending quality and quantity time among Observant Jewish people, learning from Rabbis and other religiously developed Jewish people, periodic introspection, and actual self-development by means of performing the Mitzvos. It is difficult (if at all possible) to cite any of these as being more important than any of the others.

None of us are capable of destroying Satan. What we are expected and commanded to do is to gain the upper hand over our personal Satans. And Hashem helps us do this, constantly. The Talmud says that the Evil Inclination constantly attempts to destroy us spiritually, and Hashem constantly helps us and gives us the means with which to overcome our Evil Inclinations.

When this world comes to an end, and the Next World begins, the Day of Judgment will take place. After that, Satan's work will be done. There will no longer be sin, and there will no longer be death. All judgment will have been passed and performed. There will no longer be any need for a Tempting Angel, an Angel of Death, or a Prosecuting Angel. Satan will cease to exist. It will not be a sad day at all.

Nor will it be unfair treatment of Satan. It will be like turning off a machine. Angels are not like humans, with human emotions and desires. They exist merely to follow Hashem's instructions, for the greater glory of Hashem.

That's the reason we exist too -- to follow Hashem's instructions for the greater glory of Hashem. So Satan was created to struggle against us, and we were put into this world to struggle against Satan.

But that was not the purpose of our being created. When the struggle is over we will begin to receive the reward for having struggled. We will be brought in to the Next World, and the struggle will end.

That's when the good times will begin.

Read more about this in my article, "Is the World in a Conflict Between Good and Evil?"

If you're a Christian, and/or you're here looking for Scriptural arguments and polemics, take a look at this article: "Who Is Satan?" by Rabbi Tovia Singer.

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html
Reply

thirdwatch512
08-12-2007, 12:56 AM
I know that people do everything they can to try and come up with a "contradiction" in the Bible. But you know, every single one of these 101 "Contradictions" have been cleared up.

There is a 70 page document called "101 CLEARED UP contradictions in the Bible" that debunks every one of these 101 "Contradictions." Perhaps you guys should check it out!

http://www.theapologiaproject.org/10...he%20Bible.pdf

There is a rebuttal to every single claim that the OP posted. :)
Reply

czgibson
08-12-2007, 02:10 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
I know that people do everything they can to try and come up with a "contradiction" in the Bible. But you know, every single one of these 101 "Contradictions" have been cleared up.
I'm going to try and make what may be a controversial point here, especially since it's one that potentially applies to my own attitudes, and I may well fall flat on my face, but here goes:

Muslim: "The Qur'an is perfect: handed down by god to a single man and utterly free from error."

Christian: "The Bible contains god's word, as transmitted by him to many different people over a great deal of time. Being divinely inspired, it is, in a theological sense, inerrant."

Atheist: "Sorry: both of your scriptures contain clear contradictions, which no amount of circumambient peripherisation will conceal. Someone actually went to the trouble of compiling '101 contradictions in the Bible', and someone delivered a comparable effort in attempting to refute that document. Think of all the things they could have been doing instead!"

I suppose the point I'm making is this: while there are strong feelings on both sides, to what extent do these issues have any bearing on reality? Of course, the endless theism vs. atheism discussions that people like me are very fond of are in pretty much the same category, but how much does all of this differ from Medieval scholastics in the Christian tradition debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?

Peace
Reply

khairullah
08-12-2007, 08:31 AM
ony one Question from Christains.

DO YOU CHRISTIANS ATTRIBUTE ALL THESE CONTRADICTIONS TO GOD ALMIGHTY?
Reply

Zilam
08-14-2007, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khairullah
ony one Question from Christains.

DO YOU CHRISTIANS ATTRIBUTE ALL THESE CONTRADICTIONS TO GOD ALMIGHTY?
God never contradicts in His Word. Our understanding of His Word might contradict at times though, only because we are human.
Reply

Joe98
08-15-2007, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Raouf

45. When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?
• Yes (Matthew 21:12)

• No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17)


The Christian view:

In the time of Christ, the job of janitor had a low status in Jewish society.

Christ entered the temple and cleaned it. He was trying to show that everybody is equal and there should not be any status in society.

We can all learn something from this.


The Muslim view.

The time discrepancy means neither book were written by God. Therefore Islam is the correct religion. There is nothing to learn here – move along now.




The time discrepancy

Mathew and Mark were both men. Neither claimed to be God. They were witnesses to events and their books were written many years after the events. Possibly when they were very old men or even written after they died by their followers after they died.


Conclusion:

Athiests can learn from the Bible but not from the Koran.

-
Reply

khairullah
08-22-2007, 06:43 AM
God never contradicts in His Word. Our understanding of His Word might contradict at times though, only because we are human.
only because you are human doesnt mean you must change the words of God.

you blasphemed God and you call this not understanding?
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-22-2007, 07:45 AM
Does it really matter if the bible has contradictions?

I mean, it has talking snakes and donkeys. Is that not enough for you?
Reply

Malaikah
08-22-2007, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
The time discrepancy

Mathew and Mark were both men. Neither claimed to be God. They were witnesses to events and their books were written many years after the events. Possibly when they were very old men or even written after they died by their followers after they died.
The problem is that Christians claim the Bible was inspired by God. If it were inspired, it would not have contradictions, no matter how late in life it was written. Unless you want to think that God inspired them with the wrong information?

Conclusion:

Athiests can learn from the Bible but not from the Koran.
Wow, conclusion that has nothing to do with the discussion! How amazing. :rollseyes
Reply

rav
08-22-2007, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
The problem is that Christians claim the Bible was inspired by God. If it were inspired, it would not have contradictions, no matter how late in life it was written. Unless you want to think that God inspired them with the wrong information?
Well I am not exactly sure if their is an actual agreement on the origins of the Bible, because when debating missionaries I have come across many belief systems. For example, I recently debated a Baptist; who claimed every word of the entire "Christian Bible" was the actual word of G-d. I had never heard such a claim before because Judaism at its most Orthodox levels teach the entire Torah (Not Jewish Bible, but just the 5 books of Moses) are the word of G-d. I asked her about contradictions etc, because contradictions do indeed exist in the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures). The books of Isaiah, Pslams, Jeremiah etc. may be inspired by G-d, and have G-d's word quoted in it, but many times it is the prophet himself speaking, and since we know man is not infallible, he may have wrong information etc. When he says "G-d said" or "He saw in a vision" etc, then it is G-d, but the amount of horsemen at a battle, when one record says (example not real) 7000 and another says 10,000... well such things do not effect the message nor do they have anything to di with G-d. It may be human error, or they may be rounded up in a certain way, they may be a poetic device to rhyme a phrase etc. No actual laws of halakha (Jewish law) come from anywhere but the Torah, so therefore the rest of Tanakh can be considered historical, inspiring, and a way to judge prophecies and future events if you believe we are in a time of a soon coming redemption. But the actual law can only be taken from the Torah, which is our word of G-d.
Reply

guyabano
08-22-2007, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Wow, conclusion that has nothing to do with the discussion! How amazing. :rollseyes
But a conclusion may make part of a discussion, and the bitter pill to swallow is, that he's right !
Reply

Malaikah
08-22-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
But a conclusion may make part of a discussion, and the bitter pill to swallow is, that he's right !
The only way he can make that conclusion is by extensive word to word study of both the Quran and Bible. Since he came no were near doing this, in fact, the topic of his post as not even related to that, his conclusion is 100% baseless and pointless, just like almost almost every single one of his comments on this forum.

Thanks rav for your comments. But I never got the impression that Christians beleive the Bible contain a phrase here or there that was spoken by God and only what was inspired. they seem to believe the whole thing was inspired. I can understand why the Bible would have contradiction since it was written by men very much after the event, but I don't understand why it would have contradictions if it was inspired by God.:rollseyes
Reply

Keltoi
08-22-2007, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
The only way he can make that conclusion is by extensive word to word study of both the Quran and Bible. Since he came no were near doing this, in fact, the topic of his post as not even related to that, his conclusion is 100% baseless and pointless, just like almost almost every single one of his comments on this forum.

Thanks rav for your comments. But I never got the impression that Christians beleive the Bible contain a phrase here or there that was spoken by God and only what was inspired. they seem to believe the whole thing was inspired. I can understand why the Bible would have contradiction since it was written by men very much after the event, but I don't understand why it would have contradictions if it was inspired by God.:rollseyes
Considers what you mean by "inspired". Do you believe God takes possession of an individual and writes it Himself? Or do you believe that God "speaks" through the mind and hand of an individual? As the Bible is much more than simply reciting the statements of God, meaning it is full of historical events and re-tellings, it would be wrong to conclude that every word in the Bible is a statement from God. What God has commanded is written. However, God commanded human beings, not lifeless scrolls. What God has inspired will always and naturally be incorporated into the larger picture of life. Contradictions, or whatever one wishes to call them, will naturally occur when different people re-tell the same event. I do not think of the Bible as being, word for word, statements from God. They are the writings of men who were inspired by God's command and Message.
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Joe98
08-27-2007, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
If it were inspired, it would not have contradictions,

The story I quoted teaches us that everybody is equal. Nobody's status is higher than anybody else.

Where is the contradiction????

-
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
08-27-2007, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ghazi
:sl:

They're not smear campaigns, go into a debate with a christian they'll hit you with misinterperted quran verses, it's only fair and wise we know some of their books fault so we have some ammunition to show them what they hold to be true is false.
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

if someone holds onto a piece of rock like its the most precious thing to them, and you keep attacking that piece of rock saying "your rock cannot benefit you!" it will not helP!, they will keep defending it and perhaps become more stubborn and hard hearted in the process. But if you show them the beautiful gem you hold, they will drop that rock and take your gem ;)




muhammad alshareef may Allah grant him jannah had said that::

Dont tell people they are hiding sand behind their backs, but show them your gem, they will gladly let the sand slip through there fingers and clutch onto this beautiful gem :)
Reply

Md Mashud
08-27-2007, 01:03 PM
IbnAbdulHakim has hit the spot perfectly. People, lets leave the prideful act of insulting Christians beliefs - even if we believe they are wrong. Lets open there hearts by showing them why the Quran and Islam is correct rather than why there bible is wrong - Inshallah it will get through to them.

The same way you feel when someone attacks the Quran, they equally feel that pain back!
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-29-2007, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
Jazakhallah khair for the info bro! It just proves for the millionth time that Islam is the only true religion.:)

No. It doesn't.

First, it says nothing about Islam. So it cannot prove anything about it one way or the other.

Second, they are claims of contradictions. Rather than saying 101 Clear Contradictions, it would be better to have said 101 Apparhent Contradictions.

Third, the validity of Christianity does not rest on any of these texts.
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-29-2007, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
The problem is that Christians claim the Bible was inspired by God. If it were inspired, it would not have contradictions, no matter how late in life it was written. Unless you want to think that God inspired them with the wrong information?
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Thanks rav for your comments. But I never got the impression that Christians beleive the Bible contain a phrase here or there that was spoken by God and only what was inspired. they seem to believe the whole thing was inspired. I can understand why the Bible would have contradiction since it was written by men very much after the event, but I don't understand why it would have contradictions if it was inspired by God.:rollseyes
But inspired is not the same as dictated. It may be that this removes God from the Bible's creation to such an extent that you no longer view it as a credible record. I'll have to live with that.

I, for one, have no problem with the way Rav explained it even though I would say that the whole Bible was inspired. As Keltoi says, the writers were inspired by God to write, but they were also free to shape that writing in a way that reflected what they understood (an in some cases even misunderstood) about God. (Regarding that last comment, I think that some of the passages in the Tanakh where the Israelites interpret a victory as proof that God was with them and a loss a proof that God had abandoned them because of some sin, are just so much interpretations of the human authors, and not necessarily revelatory of God's actual will, even though I think that God can and sometimes does use such events for his purposes.)
Reply

rav
08-29-2007, 05:48 PM
Shalom (Peace),

Lavikor201 refuted the first supposed contradiction so let us look at the second one just for some curiousity:

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
• Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
• One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
Here are the two verses:

And Joab presented the sum of the number of the people to the king; And Israel consisted of eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. (2 Samued 24:9)

And Joab gave the number of the census of the people to David, and all Israel were a thousand thousand and a hundred thousand men who draw the sword, and Judah was four hundred seventy thousand men who draw the sword. (1 Chronicles 21:5)

So let us see what Rashi says about these two verses.

On his commentary of the verse in Samuel Rashi points out the word "sum". He says: If sum why number? And if number, why sum? Joab made two lists, a long and a short one. He said: I shall show him the short one but if he gets angry then I will show him the longer one. This is why it says מפקד which is an expression of lacking. So it is explicated in the Pesikta.

He then says: Now in I Chronicles 21:5 it is written “one million, one hundred thousand.” In the Aggadah of the Amoraim [the post-Mishnaic rabbis of the Talmud] we find: R. Joshua the son of Levi said: The verses add here what they omitted elsewhere, [i.e.,] the two tribes that were not counted, for it is written in I Chronicles (2:6): But Levi and Benjamin he did not number among them; for the king’s word was abominable to Joab. Joab said, From these I can free myself by claiming that the tribe of Levi is not [to be] counted among the other tribes but from one month and above [while the other tribes were counted from ages twenty to fifty]. Now concerning Benjamin it is enough that they were diminished and [nearly] destroyed in the incident of the Concubine in Gibeah (Jud. Ch. 20). Also in the thirty-two rules [of interpretation] of R. Eliezer the son of Rabbi Yosi of Galilee we learned: One verse states that “all of Israel were one million and one hundred thousand… and Judah was four hundred seventy thousand [men],” while another verse states that “Israel consisted of eight hundred thousand… and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand.” We thus find a discrepancy of three hundred thousand between them. What is to be said concerning these three hundred thousand? Comes the third verse (in I Chron. 27:1) and clarifies “And the children of Israel after their number, the heads of father’s houses and the captains of thousands and of hundreds and their officers that served the king, in any matter of the divisions which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year of each division were twenty-four thousand.” We learn from here that these three hundred thousand were written in the royal record and required no [additional] accounting. How [do we derive this sum]? Twenty-four thousand [multiplied] by twelve [tribes] totals two hundred and eighty-eight thousand leaving twelve thousand who were the rulers of Israel."


On his commentary on 1 Chronicles he says: But in Samuel (II 24:9) it is written: “eight hundred thousand, etc., and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men,” which apparently means that there were not so many of Israel as are stated here. The truth is that because the anger of the Holy One, blessed be He, was upon David, Scripture did not write there the number of all of those whom he had counted. Neither did Joab count all the tribes, as it is written (verse 6): “… because the word of the king was repugnant to Joab.” But here, because of David’s honor, he does mention the number and the reckoning that he counted, because it is his honor that such a massive army was in his tribe. And the following is proof to what I explained: that even that small part of Israel that he counted, he did not write their entire number in Samuel, but here, [the Chronicler] did write the entire number that he counted, because it is written here: “and all Israel were,” whereas in Samuel it is not written: “all.” And it is explicitly proven here before us, as it is written: (below 27:24): “Joab the son of Zeruiah began to count but did not finish, and with this there was anger upon Israel, and the number did not reach the number of the chronicles of King David.”

So there we go. Please object to anything you may think is not true written above. Until then, I can say with conviction that the first two 'contradictions' presented are not contradictions at all. Not to say that there may not be a contradiction in the Tanakh, but dishonesty, or pure ignorance dominates the writers of such works as the original post wrote.
Reply

Woodrow
01-12-2008, 01:03 AM
I just moved this to the top as some members were asking about it.
Reply

ricardo_sousa
01-12-2008, 12:28 PM
I think all "God Books" like the Torah, Koran, Bible, etc, have lots of mistakes.... Many as a Harry Potter books...
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Omari
01-12-2008, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
I think all "God Books" like the Torah, Koran, Bible, etc, have lots of mistakes.... Many as a Harry Potter books...
I disagree with you. And I challenge you to find me ONE mistake or contradiction in the Quran. And people have tried for 1000 years and should they try 1000 more years, they will not find a single mistake in the Quran. For allah says, I will protect this book from harm.

[Peace be with you broter ](My challenge is not just for you but for everyone)
Omari
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ricardo_sousa
01-12-2008, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
And I challenge you to find me ONE mistake or contradiction in the Quran.
1- Numerical Contradictions:

2- Creation of the Heaven and Earth

3- Sun-set and Sun-rise

4- A Resting Place For Sun!?

5- Why Allah Created Stars!

6- Is Sky/Heaven A ROOF or Canopy Over the Earth?

7- Does Sun Rotate Around the Earth?

8- Does Earth Spread Out Like Carpet (flat)

9- Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?

10- Is Religion Compulsive or is it not?

Koran mistakes.... www. faith freedom . org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm
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ricardo_sousa
01-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Now you cand find excuses to all this contradictions of course, like Christians find excuses to the mistakes and contradictions of the Bible.... it´s all the same.
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Omari
01-12-2008, 01:24 PM
First of all you gave me lists of names, not EXACT verses in the quran. And no its not excuses, its merely YOUR (not neccessarily you) misinterpretation and your mistranslation. so its a baseless arguement if you throw at me misinterpertation and i answer them, however i can find mistakes, or "teachings" in the bible that are against humanity as a whole, doesn't this lower it's authencity? and by extension, lower it's chances of being the word of god?
Now find somthign in the Quran thats againts humanity.
[peace be with you]
Omari
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ricardo_sousa
01-12-2008, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
First of all you gave me lists of names, not EXACT verses in the quran.
follow the link.
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ricardo_sousa
01-12-2008, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
Now find somthign in the Quran thats againts humanity.
[peace be with you]
Omari
lol, say that to the terrorists that are blowing them selfs all around Europe...
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Omari
01-12-2008, 01:37 PM
Those are not contradictions, but rather, contradistinctions. When statements can co-exist it's called a contradistinction.
Now my reply to them are, if I bought an iPod yesterday. and then I say I bought a PSP yesterday. Am I contradicting myself? I don't think so, becuase i could have bought the iPod at 2 ocolock and psp at 3 oclock. Like wise:
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

This is not a contradiction, but a contradistinction.
Yes god created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.
so, Heaven + Earth and everything =6 (d)
H+2= 6 days.
H=4 days? [allah knows best]
So you see even with this childlike calculation we can prove that it wasn't a contradiction.

For more information you can refer to Dr. Zakir Naiks tape ; Quran or the Bible, which is god's word, and you will find that there are no contradictions. NO mistakes in the holy quran.
[peace be with you brother]
[Omari]
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Omari
01-12-2008, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
lol, say that to the terrorists that are blowing them selfs all around Europe...
I HAVE! I AM! I CAN!
first of all i think it should interest you to know that no where in the quran does it approve of any kind of harm. Infact the quran says, If anyone murders an innocent being, it is as if he has killed the entire humanity. The people who are commiting terrorist acts in the name of religion are not followers of that religion at all, but rather brainwashed into doing somthing that was never taught by the book. (I am from afghanistan, I should know what you mean to say)

But brother, you cannot label muslims for the work of some individuals. If a new BMW car is out on the market, and a weak driver takes it for a drive and bangs the car up. Who will you blame? the car or the driver? definatly not the manufacturer.

And I can give you events in history that show people from other religions who commit acts of terrorism.

For more information you can refer to Dr.Zakir Naik's dvd on Terrorism in the name of Islam.

And I as a MUSLIM am STRONGLY against anyone who disgraces the name if Islam by blowing himself up and destroying hundreds of INNOCENT lives.

peace
Omari
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Grace Seeker
01-12-2008, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I just moved this to the top as some members were asking about it.

I'm sure Jayda will appreciate you resurrecting her favorite thread. :nervous:
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Whatsthepoint
01-12-2008, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
Those are not contradictions, but rather, contradistinctions. When statements can co-exist it's called a contradistinction.
Now my reply to them are, if I bought an iPod yesterday. and then I say I bought a PSP yesterday. Am I contradicting myself? I don't think so, becuase i could have bought the iPod at 2 ocolock and psp at 3 oclock. Like wise:
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

This is not a contradiction, but a contradistinction.
Yes god created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.
so, Heaven + Earth and everything =6 (d)
H+2= 6 days.
H=4 days? [allah knows best]
So you see even with this childlike calculation we can prove that it wasn't a contradiction.

For more information you can refer to Dr. Zakir Naiks tape ; Quran or the Bible, which is god's word, and you will find that there are no contradictions. NO mistakes in the holy quran.
[peace be with you brother]
[Omari]
Surah 41:
9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask.

11. Then He turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

2+4+2 equals 8, doesn't it?

Anyway, I agree with Ricardo. There's an explanation for any of the contradictions, as there is an explanation for every contradiction in the Bible. Belief always finds a way.
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Omari
01-12-2008, 10:59 PM
how do you know he didn't create the earth and the mountains in simultaneously?

And i suggest you look verse 12.
So he completed them as seven firmaments in two days, and he assigned to each heaven its duty and command.And we adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (him) the Exalted in might, Full of Knowledge.

This is a miracle, the quran speaks about the earth's atmosphere's 7 layers! and it speaks that they all have their own duties and commands. [Thank you brother for posting this verse i am sure many muslims and non muslims will benefit from it]

Peace be with you brother
Omari
Reply

Trumble
01-13-2008, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
how do you know he didn't create the earth and the mountains in simultaneously?
According to that translation (no doubt someone can advise if it is inaccurate) the mountains were "set on the earth"; which must therefore have existed prior to the setting? If the process was simultaneous, why is it not described as such?

BTW, the earth's atmosphere doesn't have "7 layers", any more than it does 4,5,6 or 14 layers (you'll find lists analysing it all of those ways if you look). And what are those 'lights' in the lower heaven? As usual, no 'miracle'!
Reply

جوري
01-13-2008, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Surah 41:
9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask.

11. Then He turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

2+4+2 equals 8, doesn't it?

Anyway, I agree with Ricardo. There's an explanation for any of the contradictions, as there is an explanation for every contradiction in the Bible. Belief always finds a way.
I expected a little better from you..

anyhow here is a detailed tafsir from suret FUSSILAT !

THE FORTY-FIRST SURAH

FUSSILAT (CLEARLY SPELLED OUT)

MECCA PERIOD

REVEALED immediately after the preceding surah, this one continues the theme begun in the latter: man’s reasoned acceptance or willful rejection of divine revelations. The title is derived from the verb fussilat occurring in verse 3, where it relates to the “clearly spelled-out” messages of the Quran.

DIVINE WRIT IN ARABIC

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE: (1) Ha. Mim. [See Appendix II.] (2) THE BESTOWAL from on high [of this revelation] issues from the Most Gracious, the Dis*penser of Grace: (3) a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue for people of [innate] knowl*edge, [See 12: 2 and the corresponding note.] (4) to be a herald of glad tidings as well as a warning. And yet, [whenever this divine writ is offered to men,] most of them turn away, so that they cannot hear [its message]; [The “people of [innate] knowledge” mentioned in the preceding verse are obviously those who understand the spiritual purport of this divine writ and, therefore, submit to its guidance: hence, it cannot be “most of them” who are referred to in the above phrase and in the next verse but, on the contrary, people who are devoid of such knowledge and to whom, in consequence, the Quran is meaningless. This elliptically implied differentiation - overlooked by almost all of the commentators (with perhaps the sole exception of Ibn Kathir) - can only be brought out by means of an interpolation at the beginning of the sentence.] (5) and so they say, [as it were:] “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier. [For this rendering of the term hijab, see note on the first sentence of 7: 46. See also 6: 25. The “saying” of those who turn away from the message of the Quran is, of course, figurative, describing only their attitude.] Do, then, [whatever thou wilt, whereas,] behold, we shall do [as we have always done]!”

BELIEF IN GOD’S ONENESS AND CHARITABLENESS

(6) Say thou, [O Prophet:] “I am but a mortal like you. [Cf. 6: 50 and the corresponding note.]

It has been revealed to me that your God is the One God: go, then, straight towards Him and seek His forgiveness!” And woe unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, (7) [and] those who do not spend in charity: for it is they, they who [thus] deny the truth of the life to come! [Belief in God’s oneness and charitableness towards one’s fellow-men are two cardinal demands of Islam. Conversely, a deliberate offence against either of these two demands amounts to a denial of man’s responsibility before God and hence, by implication, of a continuation of life in the hereafter. (For my rendering of zakah, in this context, as “charity”, see note on 2: 43. It is to be borne in mind that the application of this term to the obligatory tax incumbent on Muslims dates from the Medina period, whereas the present surah is a Meccan revelation.)] (8) [But,] verily, they who have attained to faith and do good works shall have a reward unending!

CREATION OF EARTH

(9) SAY: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created the earth in two aeons? [For the above rendering of the term yawm (lit., “day”), as “aeon”, see last third of note on 7: 54. As in so many verses of the Quran which relate to cosmic events, the repeated mention of the “six aeons” during which the universe was created - “two” of which, according to the above verse, were taken by the evolution of the inorganic universe, including the earth - has a purely allegorical import: in this case, I believe, an indication that the universe did not exist “eternally” but had a definite beginning in time, and that it required a definite time-lapse to evolve to its present condition.] And do you claim that there is any power that could rival Him, the Sustainer of all the worlds?” [Lit., “do you give Him compeers (andad)?” For an explanation, see note on 2: 22.] (10) For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned * its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [I.e., in accordance with divine justice, and not with human concepts of “equity” or “need”.] [and all this He created] in four aeons. [Almost all the classical commentators agree in that these “four aeons include the “two” mentioned in the preceding verse: hence my interpolation of the words “and all this He created”. Together with the “two aeons of verse 12, the entire allegorical number comes to six.] (11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on

2: 29).] And We adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, and made them secure: [Cf. 15: 16-18 and the corresponding notes; also 37: 6ff.] such is the ordaining of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

THUNDERBOLT OF PUNISHMENT FOR TRIBE OF AD AND THAMUD

(13) BUT IF they turn away, say: [This connects with the opening sentence of verse 9 above: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created…”, etc.] “I warn you of [the coming of] a thunderbolt of punishment [See note on 2: 55.] like the thunderbolt [that fell upon the tribes] of Ad and Thamud!” [For the story of these two ancient tribes, see 7: 65-79 and the corresponding notes; also 26: 123-158.] (14) Lo! There came unto them [God’s] apostles, speaking of what lay open before them and what was [still] beyond their ken, * [and calling unto them,] “Worship none but God!” [*Lit., “from between their hands and from behind them”: i.e., reminding them of something that was known to them - namely, what happened to sinners like themselves who lived before their time - and warning them of what was bound to happen in the future to them, too, if they persisted in their denial of the truth (Al-Hasan al-Basri, as quoted by Zamakhshari). However, it is possible to understand the above phrase (which has been explained in note on 2: 255) in yet another, more direct way: God’s message-bearers pointed out to those sinning communities something that should have been obvious to them (lit., “between their hands”) - namely, their patently wrong attitude in their worldly, social concerns and moral concepts - as well as the unreasonableness of their denying something that was still beyond their ken (lit., “behind them”): namely, life after death and God’s ultimate judgment.] They answered: “If our Sustainer had willed [us to believe in what you say], He would have sent down angels [as His message-bearers]. [Cf. 6: 8-9 and 15: 7.] As it is, behold, we deny that there is any truth in what you [claim to] have been sent with!” (15) Now as for [the tribe of] Ad, they walked arrogantly on earth, [offending] against all right, and saying, “Who could have a power greater than ours?” Why - were they, then, not aware that God, who created them, had a power greater than theirs? But they went on rejecting Our messages; (16) and thereupon We let loose upon them a storm wind raging through days of misfortune, [See 69: 6-8.] so as to give them, in the life of this world, a foretaste of suffering through humiliation: but [their] suffering in the life to come will be far more humiliating, and they will have none to succour them. (17) And as for [the tribe of] Thamud, We offered them guidance, but they chose blindness in pre*ference to guidance: and so the thunderbolt of shame*ful suffering fell upon them as an outcome of all [the evil] that they had wrought; (18) and We saved [only] those who had attained to faith and were conscious of Us.

SINNERS BEARING WITNESS AGAINST THEMSELVES ON THE JUDGMENT DAY

(19) Hence, [warn all men of] the Day when the enemies of God shall be gathered together before the fire, and then shall be driven onward, (20) till, when they come close to it, their hearing and their sight and their [very] skins will bear witness against them, speaking of what they were doing [on earth]. (21) And they will ask their skins, “Why did you bear witness against us?” - [and] these will reply: “God, who gives speech to all things, has given speech to us [as well]: for He [it is who] has created you in the first instance - and unto Him you are [now] brought back. (22) And you did not try to hide [your sins] lest your hearing or your sight or your skins bear witness against you: nay, but you thought that God did not know much of what you were doing - (23) and that very thought which you thought about your Sustainer has brought you to perdition, and so now you find yourselves among the lost!” (24) And then, [even] if they endure [their lot] in patience, the fire will still be their abode; [Sc., “unless God wills to reprieve them”: see the last paragraph of 6: 128 and the corresponding note; also the hadith quoted in note on 40: 12.] and if they pray to be allowed to make amends, they will not be allowed to do so: [Lit., “they will not be of those who are allowed to make amends”: an allusion to the request of the doomed, on the Day of Judgment, to be granted a “second chance” on earth, and to God’s refusal of this request (cf. 6: 27-28 and 32: 12).]

EVIL SOUL-MATES

(25) for [when they became obli*vious of Us,] We assigned to them [their own evil impulses as their] other selves, [Or: “soul-mates” (cf. 4: 38). The verb qarana, from which the noun qarin is derived, signifies “he linked” or “intimately associated” or “yoked together [one thing with another]”. Cf. 43: 36 - “as for anyone who chooses to remain blind to the remembrance of the Most Gracious, to him We assign an [enduring] evil impulse [lit., “a Satan”], to become his other self”.] and these made appear goodly to them whatever lay open before them and whatever was beyond their ken. [Lit., “that which was between their hands and that which was behind them”: i.e., their own evil impulses (which had become their “other selves”, as it were) made alluring to them the unrestrained enjoyment, without any moral discrimination, of all the worldly attractions which lay open before them, causing them, at the same time, to dismiss as an illusion the idea of resurrection and of God’s judgment - thus giving them a false sense of security with regard to something that was beyond their ken.] And so, the sentence [of doom] will have fallen due upon them together with the [other sinful] com*munities of invisible beings [For this rendering - and the meaning - of the term jinn, see Appendix III.] and humans that passed away before their time: verily, they [all] will indeed be lost!

SUFFERING FOR KNOWINGLY REJECTING GOD’S MESSAGES

(26) NOW THOSE who are bent on denying the truth say [unto one another]: “Do not listen to this Quran, but rather talk frivolously about it, so that you might gain the upper hand!” [This is an allusion to efforts aimed at discrediting the Quran by describing it as “invented” by Muhammad for his own - personal and political - ends, as a series of “misunderstood quo*tations” from earlier scriptures, as the result of “hallucinations”, and so forth: all of which implies that the opponents of the Quranic message instinctively feel its force, realizing at the same time that it endangers their self-complacent, materialistic outlook on life and ought, therefore, to be combated. This explains the statement, at the end of verse 28, that they “knowingly reject” God’s messages.] (27) But We shall most certainly give those who are [thus] bent on denying the truth a taste of suffering severe, and We shall most certainly requite them according to the worst of their deeds! (28) That requital of God’s enemies will be the fire [of the hereafter]: in it will they have an abode of immeasurable duration as an outcome of their having knowingly rejected Our messages. [For the above rendering of the verb jahada, see the third note on 29: 47.] (29) And they who [in their life on earth] were bent on denying the truth will [thereupon] exclaim: “O our Sustainer! Show us those of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray: [See 6: 112 - “against every prophet We have set up as enemies the evil forces (shayatin) from among humans as well as from among invisible beings” - and the corresponding note.] we shall trample them underfoot, so that they shall be the lowest of all!” [Cf. 7: 38.]

DESCENDING OF ANGELS ON DOERS OF GOOD

(30) [But,] behold, as for those who say, “Our Sustainer is God,” and then steadfastly pursue the right way - upon them do angels often descend, [say*ing:] “Fear not and grieve not, but receive the glad tiding of that paradise which has been promised to you! (31) We are close unto you in the life of this world and [will be so] in the life to come; and in that [life to come] you shall have all that your souls may desire, and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for, (32) as a ready welcome from Him who is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!” (33) And who could be better of speech than he who calls [his fellow-men] unto God, and does what is just and right, and says, “Verily, I am of those who have surrendered themselves to God”?

REPEL EVIL WITH GOOD

(34) But [since] good and evil cannot be equal, repel thou [evil] with something that is better [See note on 13: 22. In the present instance, the injunction to “repel [evil] with something that is better” relates to scurrilous objections to, and hostile criticism of, the Quran. The whole of this passage (verses 33 ff.) connects with verse 26.] - and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity [may then become] as though he had [always] been close [unto thee], a true friend! [You foil hatred with love and liberate those from sin and make them your true friends.] (35) Yet [to achieve] this is not given to any but those who are wont to be patient in adversity: it is not given to any but those endowed with the greatest good fortune! (36) Hence, if it should happen that a prompting from Satan stirs thee up [to blind anger], seek refuge with God: behold, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! [I.e., He alone sees what is in the hearts of men, and He alone understands the innermost motivations, of which they themselves are unconscious, of those who criticize the Quran adversely. See 7: 199-200 and the corresponding notes.]

GOD AS CAUSE AND SOURCE OF ALL THAT EXISTS

(37) Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship. [This, according to Razi, connects with the phrase “calling [one’s fellow-men] unto God” in verse 33 above. God is the sole cause and source of all that exists; and whatever exists is but a wondrous sign of His creative power. Hence, it is a blasphemy - apart from being unreasonable - to ascribe real power (which is the meaning of “adoration” in this context) to anything created, whether it be a concrete phenomenon, or an abstract force of nature, or a set of circumstances, or even an idea.] (38) And though some be too proud [to listen to this call], they who [in their hearts] are with thy Sustainer extol His limitless glory by night and by day, and never grow weary [thereof]. (39) For among His signs is this: thou seest the earth lying desolate - and lo! when We send down water upon it, it stirs and swells [with life]! Verily, He who brings it to life can surely give life to the dead [of heart as well]: for, behold, He has the power to will anything. [Although the allusion to the reviving earth often occurs in the Quran as a parable of man’s ultimate resurrection, in the present context (and in tune with the entire passage comprising verses 33-39) it appears to be an illustration of God’s power to bestow spiritual life upon hearts that have hitherto remained closed to the truth of His existence and omnipotence. Hence, it implies a call to the believer never to abandon the hope that “those who deny the truth” may one day grasp the truth of the Quranic message.]

REJECTION OF THE THEORY OF ABROGATION

(40) VERILY, they who distort the meaning of Our mes*sages are not hidden from Us: hence, which [of the two] will be in a better state - he that is [destined to be] cast into the fire, or he that shall come secure [before Us] on Resurrection Day? Do what you will: verily, He sees all that you do. (41) Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - [they are the losers]: for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ: (42) no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, * [since it is] bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised. [*Lit., “neither from between its hands, nor from behind it”, i.e., it cannot be openly changed by means of additions or omissions (Razi), and neither surreptitiously, by hostile or deliberately confusing interpretations. The above is one of the Quranic passages on which the great com*mentator Abu Muslim al-Isfahani (as quoted by Razi) bases his absolute rejection of the theory of “abrogation” (for which see note on 2: 106). Since the “abrogation” of any Quran-verse would have amounted to its ibtal - that is, to an open or implied declaration that it was henceforth to be regarded as null and void - the verse in question would have to be considered “false” (batil) in the context of the Quran as it is before us: and this, as Abu Muslim points out, would clearly contradict the above statement that “no falsehood (batil) can ever attain to it”.]

MEN’S ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE EARLIER SCRIPTURES AND THE QURAN

(43) [And as for thee, O Prophet,] nothing is being said to thee but what was said to all [of God’s] apostles before thy time. [This is an allusion to the allegation of the Prophet’s opponents that he himself was the “author” of what he claimed to be a divine revelation, as well as to their demand that he should “prove” the truth of his prophetic mission by producing a miracle: a scornful attitude with which all the earlier prophets had been confronted at one time or another, and which is epitomized in the “saying” of the unbelievers mentioned in verse 5 of this surah.] Behold, thy Sustainer is indeed full of forgiveness - but He has also the power to requite most grie*vously! (44) Now if We had willed this [divine writ] to be a discourse in a non-Arabic tongue, they [who now reject it] would surely have said, “Why is it that its messages have not been spelled out clearly? [Sc., “in a tongue which we can understand”. Since the Prophet was an Arab and lived in an Arabian environment, his message had to be expressed in the Arabic language, which the people to whom it was addressed in the first instance could understand: see in this connection note on the first sentence of 13: 37, as well as the first half of 14: 4 - “never have We sent forth any apostle otherwise than [with a message] in his own people’s tongue, so that he might make [the truth] clear unto them”. Had the message of the Quran been formulated in a language other than Arabic, the opponents of the Prophet would have been justified in saying, “between us and thee is a barrier” (verse 5 of this surah).] Why - [a message in] a non-Arabic tongue, and [its bearer] an Arab?” Say: “Unto all who have attained to faith, this [divine writ] is a guidance and a source of health; but as for those who will not believe - in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them: they are [like people who are] being called from too far away. [Lit., “from a far-off place”: i.e., they only hear the sound of the words, but cannot understand their meaning.] (45) Thus, too, have We vouchsafed revelation unto Moses aforetime, and thereupon disputes arose about it. [As was and is the case with the Quran, some people accepted the divine message revealed to Moses, and some rejected it (Zamakhshari, Razi), while others disagreed about the import and application of its tenets (Tabari).] And [then, as now,] had it not been for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Sustainer, all would indeed have been decided between them [from the outset]. [For an explanation of this passage, as well as of the above parallel between men’s attitudes towards the earlier scriptures and the Quran, see the second sentence of 10: 19 and the corresponding note.] As it is, behold, they [who will not believe in this divine writ] are in grave doubt, amounting to suspicion, about what it portends. [Lit., “about it”, i.e., doubts as to whether the Quranic approach to problems of man’s spirit and body - and, in particular, its stress on the essential unity of these twin aspects of human life (cf. note on the first sentence of 2: 143) - is justified or not. In a wider sense, these doubts of the deniers of the truth relate to the question of whether religion as such is “beneficial” or “injurious” to human society - a question which is posed and answered by them with a strong bias against all religious faith.] (46) WHOEVER does what is just and right, does so for his own good; and whoever does evil, does so to his own hurt: and never does God do the least wrong to His creatures.

JUDGMENT DAY

(47) In Him alone is vested the knowledge of when the Last Hour will come. And no fruit bursts forth from its calyx, and no female ever conceives, nor ever gives birth, save with His knowledge. And so, on the Day when He shall call out to them, “Where, now, are those [alleged] partners of Mine?” - they will [surely] answer, “We confess unto Thee that none of us can bear witness [to anyone’s having a share in Thy divinity]!” (48) And so, all that they were wont to invoke aforetime will have forsaken them; and they shall know for certain that there is no escape for them.

(49) MAN NEVER TIRES of asking for the good [things of life]; and if evil fortune touches him, he abandons all hope, giving himself up to despair. [See note on 11: 9.] (50) Yet whenever We let him taste some of Our grace after hardship has visited him, he is sure to say, “This is but my due!” - and, “I do not think that the Last Hour will ever come: [I.e., man is, as a rule, so blinded by his love of this world that he cannot imagine its ever coming to an end. Implied in this statement is a doubt as to whether there will really be an afterlife, and whether man will really be judged by God on resurrection.] but if [it should come, and] I should indeed be brought back unto my Sus*tainer, then, behold, the ultimate good awaits me with Him! [Being fully convinced of his own merit (as expressed in the words, “This is but my due”), he is confident that - in case there should really be a life after death - his own flattering view of himself will be confirmed by God.] But [on the Day of Judgment] We shall most cer*tainly give those who were bent on denying the truth [I.e., the truth of resurrection and of God’s judgment.] full understanding of all that they ever did, and shall most certainly give them [thereby] a taste of suffering severe. [I.e., the realization of the spiritual blindness in which they spent their life will in itself be a source of their suffering in the hereafter: cf. 17: 72 - “whoever is blind [of heart] in this [world] will be blind in the life to come (as well)”.] (51) And, too, when We bestow Our blessings upon man, he tends to turn aside and keep aloof [from remembering Us]; but as soon as evil fortune touches him, he is full of wordy prayers! [Lit., “wide (i.e., prolonged or diffuse) prayers”.] (52) HAVE YOU given thought [to how you will fare] if this be truly [a revelation] from God, the while you deny its truth? Who could be more astray than one who places himself [so] deeply in the wrong? [According to Razi, this is an implied allusion to the attitude of people who - as mentioned in verses 4 and 5 of this surah - “turn away” from the message of the Quran, saying, as it were: “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier.] (53) In time We shall make them fully understand [Lit., “We will show them” or “make them see”.] Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them*selves, [I.e., through a progressive deepening and widening of their insight into the wonders of the universe as well as through a deeper understanding of man’s own psyche - all of which points to the existence of a conscious Creator.] so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything? [I.e., that He is almighty and all-seeing: a fundamental truth which, by itself, should be enough to remind man of his responsibility before Him.] (54) Oh, verily, they are in doubt as to whether they will meet their Sustainer [on Judgment Day]! Oh, verily, He encompasses everything!
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Omari
01-13-2008, 03:07 AM
including the tropopause...
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Trumble
01-13-2008, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
including the tropopause...
The point is that you can include, exclude, combine or split with equal validity in a multitude of ways. Had the Qur'an said 4,5 or 6 (or 8), point to the right list and it would seem equally 'miraculous' if you thought that particular analysis was the only one!
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Omari
01-13-2008, 03:14 AM
ah well, it was just an example, i can set out a hundred more examples of the quran being confirmed by modern science, some of which can only be argued for the sake of arguement and not correction.
Let me know if you want :)
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Roasted Cashew
01-13-2008, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Can we keep the discussion to this item.


Can anybody tell me why it matters whether he cleansed the temple one day or the next day? Do you sit up at night worrying about it?


Mathew and Mark, were 2 of the 12 disciples. They were both witnesses to the events. But they wrote their gospels many years after the events from memory.

The question of whether he cleansed the temple on one day or the next day is evidence that men have bad memories. And we can conclude that the episode actually happened.
Dude, you don't get the point don't you. Yes, if these were written by men alone I would accept the mistakes but you should know that Christians claim that this men were inspired by the Holy Spirit, one third of the trinity. SO! How could the Holy Spirit inspire the two writers to write different stories. The whole point is that these verses were actually were written by men alone without any such inspiration. GOT it?
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guyabano
01-13-2008, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
i can set out a hundred more examples of the quran being confirmed by modern science
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
Let me know if you want :)
Yes, I want.

I could also ask you this one:

Muslims will quote Quran 2:79 as a verse where the Koran says the canon of the Bible is corrupted, "Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!" My question is: If this verse refers to the corruption of the Bible, then why did Muhammad command Christians to follow the Bible they possessed in 600 AD in Quran 2:89; 7:157? And is this the only verse in the Koran that says the Bible is corrupt? (see also Quran 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11)
And, guess what, I can deliver you 59 other passes like this which are also uncomfortable for muslims.
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ricardo_sousa
01-13-2008, 11:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The point is that you can include, exclude, combine or split with equal validity in a multitude of ways. Had the Qur'an said 4,5 or 6 (or 8), point to the right list and it would seem equally 'miraculous' if you thought that particular analysis was the only one!
good example. Any mistakes in the Sacred Books are "disprove", just manipulating science and the "numbers"... Not because it is the true.
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Trumble
01-13-2008, 11:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Yes, I want.
I don't. We've seen it all before so many times and nobody has changed their minds on this one yet. The arguments are pretty much irrelevant as which of them you find convincing depends almost exclusively on your starting assumptions.
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
(9) SAY: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created the earth in two aeons? [For the above rendering of the term yawm (lit., “day”), as “aeon”, see last third of note on 7: 54.
I can't find the note...
Anyway, this reminds me on the Bible science, where they too say one day signifies an aeon or any long definite amount of time found elswhere in the Bible.
It is matter of interpretation, I guess, although I think the author of the Quran thought the earth was created in 6-8 days, not aeons.

For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned * its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [I.e., in accordance with divine justice, and not with human concepts of “equity” or “need”.] [and all this He created] in four aeons. [Almost all the classical commentators agree in that these “four aeons include the “two” mentioned in the preceding verse: hence my interpolation of the words “and all this He created”. Together with the “two aeons of verse 12, the entire allegorical number comes to six.] (11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.]
Well, a good explanation, similar to that of the Catholics who justify Mary's perpetual virginity despite the verse saying "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS" (Mt 1:25).
Aynway, I am not a scholar, I do not speak Arabic, but my common sense tells me then Earth had to be created, done in order for the mountains to be set on it...
I expected a little better from you..
Why thank you! Sorry to disappoint you.

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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The point is that you can include, exclude, combine or split with equal validity in a multitude of ways. Had the Qur'an said 4,5 or 6 (or 8), point to the right list and it would seem equally 'miraculous' if you thought that particular analysis was the only one!
That is true. And if there weren't any study with the same numbers, the verse would be considered spiritual only. That's how religions work, IMO.
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Omari
01-13-2008, 04:03 PM
the word was mistranslated, corrupted as in changed or revised. And you can't argue with the fact that the bible has been changed because I can name over 100 bibles, I think somone already did, but anyway, the quran was right ofcourse, about the bible being corrupted. I don't understand how this is uncomfortable for muslims. do explain :)

Peace brother,
Omari
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
the word was mistranslated, corrupted as in changed or revised. And you can't argue with the fact that the bible has been changed because I can name over 100 bibles, I think somone already did, but anyway, the quran was right ofcourse, about the bible being corrupted. I don't understand how this is uncomfortable for muslims. do explain :)

Peace brother,
Omari
Some Christians admit to the contradictions, some don't and seek refutations (which I am sure exist for each of the 101 clear contradictions in the Bible).
I believe the Bible was not sent from the above so it is not immune to human mistake. It might have been changed, it might have not, I'm sure most mistakes and contradictions have existed since the time the Bible was first written.

There's only one Bible actually, but there are numerous translations in virtually every language there is, many of them having multiple translations.
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ricardo_sousa
01-13-2008, 04:17 PM
The majority of Christians this days consider Bible as a reference, and not as "the truth"... A Sacred Book to help people in their lifes, with stories that must be seen as "metaphors" and not "absolute truths". So discuss the "errors in Bible" has no big interest.

By the way, this capacity of question the "truth of Bible histories" is what let the western civilization rise above the others. And for me that´s the best way of looking to religion: not as the "absolute truth", but as a guidance that can be questioned.
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Omari
01-13-2008, 04:18 PM
yes, and I apologise I didn't read that you wree Agnostic, that question was meant for a christian, or catholic.
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guyabano
01-13-2008, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
yes, and I apologise I didn't read that you wree Agnostic, that question was meant for a christian, or catholic.
I can see, you are still young. May you have a good future and always find, what you are looking for. But please. take also my advice, that there are different-thinking people who are also looking for their path. Debating about the true God and true book of faith, Quaran, Bible..etc is useless. Wars have been fought for this, and what did it bring? Nothing.
So, trying to find Contradictions or Errors in the Bible, or even in the Quaran is a Waste of time.
I just give you an example: Me, I have a neutral look on Quaran and Bible. For me, they are just funny farytale books worth of a reading and then have a good chuckle about so much Phantasy. My wife believes deeply in Jesus Christ 'the God' and nothing will ever make her change opinion. You could argue hours and hours with her, but you will never persuade her (trust me, I know it). It's her deep belief. So, does it mean, she's not worth for Paradise, just because she's a non-muslim?
And for my case, well, I can say, I never did something bad in my life. I'm a good citizen, so, will God (if he exist) forgive me, and let me to Paradise too?
If not, then God would be cruel, no? I lead my life, sinless, always faithful to my wife, and yet, I get punished. This makes a non-sense for me.
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جوري
01-13-2008, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I can't find the note...
Anyway, this reminds me on the Bible science, where they too say one day signifies an aeon or any long definite amount of time found elswhere in the Bible.
It is matter of interpretation, I guess, although I think the author of the Quran thought the earth was created in 6-8 days, not aeons.


Well, a good explanation, similar to that of the Catholics who justify Mary's perpetual virginity despite the verse saying "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS" (Mt 1:25).
Aynway, I am not a scholar, I do not speak Arabic, but my common sense tells me then Earth had to be created, done in order for the mountains to be set on it...

Why thank you! Sorry to disappoint you.


I didn't read your justification, simply because I don't understand its relevance? this tafisr I have given is one of the highest regarded and accepted, and is done by a former Jew.. Leopold weiss
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...0250307&sr=8-1

your argument however has to do with the number of days being 8 from an article your have quoted as I am to assume you neither read Arabic nor have done the search yourself?
and to that I ask.. can you personally distinguish the difference between the word 'wa' and the word 'thouma' ?
until you do, all scholars will accept it the way it was it is explained, and the way it is understood by Arabic speakers, not the way it is presented by 'answering Islam' or some other internet farce because it appeals to simple minds.. it is simply inadmissible oreven regarded as sound argument!

cheers
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YusufNoor
01-13-2008, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Some Christians admit to the contradictions, some don't and seek refutations (which I am sure exist for each of the 101 clear contradictions in the Bible).
I believe the Bible was not sent from the above so it is not immune to human mistake. It might have been changed, it might have not, I'm sure most mistakes and contradictions have existed since the time the Bible was first written.

There's only one Bible actually, but there are numerous translations in virtually every language there is, many of them having multiple translations.
:sl:

ACTUALLY, that's NOT true! Protestant and Catholic Bibles have a different number of books, and within some of the books that ARE accepted, there are verses that no-one can agree on and believe were "added" later. all the early manuscripts vary; that being said, not my kind of thread...

:sl:
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I didn't read your justification, simply because I don't understand its relevance? this tafisr I have given is one of the highest regarded and accepted, and is done by a former Jew.. Leopold weiss
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...0250307&sr=8-1

your argument however has to do with the number of days being 8 from an article your have quoted as I am to assume you neither read Arabic nor have done the search yourself?
and to that I ask.. can you personally distinguish the difference between the word 'wa' and the word 'thouma' ?
until you do, all scholars will accept it the way it was it is explained, and the way it is understood by Arabic speakers, not the way it is presented by 'answering Islam' or some other internet farce because it appeals to simple minds.. it is simply inadmissible oreven regarded as sound argument!

cheers
I don't read nor write Arabic as I have stated in my reply.
I have done some search myself and the fact that only 10 out of 13 english translations of the Quran, including the literal translation, say the Earth was created in two days, not aeons, is d**n strange.
The tasfir says there's an note about the aeons, but there wasn't any in the text you pasted.
And the evrse ten says it took two days to complete the Earth, the verse 11 says he set the mountains on the Earth. Could it be done simultaniously? Sure it could, although God could have made a simpler explanation. As I have already said in my reply, I do not understand Arabic, so I won't make conclusions here..
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جوري
01-13-2008, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't read nor write Arabic as I have stated in my reply.
that is an honest and important admission!
I have done some search myself and the fact that only 10 out of 13 english translations of the Quran, including the literal translation, say the Earth was created in two days, not aeons, is d**n strange.
Many verses in the Quran which I have already posted here reference a day by our measure not equaling to that of God's measure..
can be found in these suras

here is one
22:47 This verse talks about the unbelievers wanting God to hasten on their punishment. Then it says "a day in the sight of your lord is like a 1000 years of your reckoning.
here is two
  • 32:5 In the end will all affairs go up to Him in a day equal to 1000 years of your reckoning.
  • here is three
  • 70:4 The angels and the spirit ascend to Him in a day equal to 50,000 years of your reckoning.
  • I think there can be no doubt as to what a 'day' means in the Quran.. what do you think?
  • The tasfir says there's an note about the aeons, but there wasn't any in the text you pasted.
  • see above cited verses


And the evrse ten says it took two days to complete the Earth, the verse 11 says he set the mountains on the Earth. Could it be done simultaniously? Sure it could, although God could have made a simpler explanation. As I have already said in my reply, I do not understand Arabic, so I won't make conclusions here..
I don't think it is as difficult as you are making it out to be, although it takes years to decipher and decrypt the miracles of the Quran and people dedicate a life time to it.
my original gripe so to speak was with your poor addition skills to which I asked if you can tell the difference between 'wa' and 'thouma' therein lies the answer.. and have given you a tafisr of the entire sura by a very well respected scholar.. I also can't take credit for the 46 reviews in amazon which are more often than not make islamic text the subject of ridicule and derision than an honest assessment. The very first reviewer who is australian and I assume a non-muslim just browsing through his other reviews has given quite a clear count in what lacks in other transliteration that is made more clear in this one..

I personally couldn't care at all for reviews and transliteration since Arabic is my mother tongue.. if you are ready to debate on that level then don't hesitate in doing so, nothing would give me greater pleasure..


cheers
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:00 PM
[QUOTE]
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I think there can be no doubt as to what a 'day' means in the Quran.. what do you think?
I think the author of the Quran actually though the world was created in 6-8 days. The verse about the relativity of time for God merely ilustrate his strenght, independence etc. Now, this comes useful when ancient scriptures try to be in contact with the modern science, Christian, Msulims and Jews use it.
Of course, there's the option of the Quran actually being the Word of God but IMHO God could have done in a simpler way. I know, you probably think it couldn't have been done it better, but that's how people act, subjectively, biased...
my original gripe so to speak was with your poor addition skills to which I asked if you can tell the difference between 'wa' and 'thouma' therein lies the answer.. and have given you a tafisr of the entire sura by a very well respected scholar..
Yes, I read it and spotted the part about a word signifying simoultanous events, but it didn't quite convince me. Firstly, the erath had to be done in order to set mountains on it etc (although not necessarily...) and because it could have been written in a clearer way.
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I personally couldn't care at all for reviews and transliteration since Arabic is my mother tongue.. if you are ready to debate on that level then don't hesitate in doing so, nothing would give me greater pleasure..
Well, I don't think I'm learning Arabic anytime soon(although I'd love, despite its erm peculiar sound its grammar seems fascinating) , but certain lingusitic issues can be discussed without the knowledge of it, since there's multiple translations and tafsirs.
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جوري
01-13-2008, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I think the author of the Quran actually though the world was created in 6-8 days.
The author of the Quran is God!
The verses are very clear.. I can bring a horse to the water but I can't make him drink it.


The verse about the relativity of time for God merely ilustrate his strenght, independence etc. Now, this comes useful when ancient scriptures try to be in contact with the modern science, Christian, Msulims and Jews use it.
Haven't seen anything to parallel this in the other books.. many christians still think the earth is still 6000 yrs old. Perhaps modern science steals from ancient scriptures who knows? but which one came first? modern science or the Quran?



Of course, there's the option of the Quran actually being the Word of God but IMHO God could have done in a simpler way. I know, you probably think it couldn't have been done it better, but that's how people act, subjectively, biased...
This isn't a matter of opinion.. this is a matter of things I know of the Quran by virtue of speaking Arabic that most people can't begin to understand or realize except after yrs of study and dedication, just even in relation to other text at the time and other text that had tried to imitate the Quran, I'll try to post some here later for an ex. I am personally still learning and still in awe.. a few yrs ago I wasn't in awe.. it deepens as one's capacity to learn increases. It has in fact something for everyone from the simplest mind to the most complex... I can look at one verse in three distince ways.. I'll try to give an example of that too later...you can take it literal, you can take the elicitation, you can take it to an abstract.. but that is unparalleled.. any man writing a book will make a mistake.. I can't imagine someone writing so poetically in very distinct styles.. the language of the hadith is one way, the language of the Quran completely different... I can't on any level accept a sophmoric account of how it all occurred especially in its evocation of that historical period.. do you think for instance after finising the Quran, establishing a state of politics, morality, inheritance, economics, poetry, auguries one would sit there to make sure it all matched on this level for instance
to speak of 7 heavens and to find 7 different verses in different suras about them
2:29
17:44
23:86
41:12
65:12
67:3
71.15
or Another confirmed repetition....

Mention of 'Salawaat' (arabic pl. prayers) = 5 times

2:157, 2:238, 9:99, 22:40, 23:9 ..
mention of dunia and akhira in exact numbers
Mention of 'Dunyâ' (Life of this world) = 115 times

2:85, 2:86, 2:114, 2:130, 2:200, 2:201, 2:204, 2:212, 2:217, 2:220, 3:14, 3:22, 3:45, 3:56, 3:117, 3:145, 3:148, 3:152, 3:185, 4:74, 4:77, 4:94, 4:109, twice in 4:134, 5:33, 5:41, 6:29, 6:32, 6:70, 6:130, 7:32, 7:51, 7:152, 7:156, 8:42, 8:67, twice in 9:38, 9:55, 9:69, 9:74, 9:85, 10:7, 10:23, 10:24, 10:64, 10:70, 10:88, 10:98, 11:15, 11:60, 12:101, twice in 13:26, 13:34, 14:3, 14:27, 16:30, 16:41, 16:107, 16:122, 18:28, 18:45, 18:46, 18:104, 20:72, 20:131, 22:9, 22:11, 22:15, 22:33, 23:37, 24:14, 24:19, 24:23, 24:33, 28:42, 28:60, 28:61, 28:77, 28:79, 29:25, 29:27, 29:64, 30:7, 31:15, 31:33, 33:28, 33:57, 35:5, 37:6, 39:10, 39:26, 40:39, 40:43, 40:51, 41:12, 41:16, 41:31, 42:20, 42:36, 43:32, 43:35, 45:24, 45:35, 46:20, 47:36, 53:29, twice in 57:20, 59:3, 67:5, 79:38, 87:16

Mention of 'Âkhirah' (The Hereafter) =71+21+1+19+1+2 = 115 times

Al-Âkhirah = 71
2:94, 2:102, 2:114, 2:130, 2:200, 2:201, 3:77, 3:85, 3:145, 3:148, 3:152, 3:176, 5:5, 5:33, 5:41, 6:32, 7:147, 7:156, 7:169, 8:67, twice in 9:38, 10:64, 11:16, 11:12, 11:103, 12:57, 12:109, 13:26, 13:34, 14:3, 14:27, 16:30, 16:41, 16:107, 16:109, 16:122, 17:7, 17:19, 17:72, 17:104, 20:127, 23:33, 27:5, 27:66, 28:77, 28:83, 29:20, 29:27, 29:64, 30:7, 30:16, 33:29, 34:1, 38:7, 39:9, 39:26, 40:39, 40:43, 41:16, 41:31, twice in 42:20, 53:25, 57:20, 59:3, 60:13, 68:33, 74:53, 75:21, 79:25

Bil-Âkhirah = 21
2:86, 4:74, 6:92, 6:113, 6:150, 7:45, 11:19, 12:37, 16:22, 16:60, 17:10, 17:45, 23:74, 27:3, 27:4, 31:4, 34:8, 34:21, 39:45, 41:7, 53:27

Lil-Âkhirah =1
92:13

Wal-Âkhirah =19
2:217, 2:220, 3:22, 3:45, 3:56, 4:77, 4:134, 9:69, 9:74, 12:101, 22:11, 22:15, 24:14, 24:19, 24:23, 28:70, 33:57, 43:35, 87:17

Wabil-Âkhirah =1
2:4

Walal-Âkhirah =2
17:21, 93:4

and you find five different verses in different chapters.. who sits there and counts after all has been said and done..

that is if I were to take the book from just a numerology point of view..
really think about all your I's and T's before you write these random statements!

Yes, I read it and spotted the part about a word signifying simoultanous events, but it didn't quite convince me.
This is coming from an admitted non textual expert!


Firstly, the erath had to be done in order to set mountains on it etc (although not necessarily...) and because it could have been written in a clearer way.
I don't understand what that means or what you are trying to say..


cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:22 PM
Christians have refuted virtually every alleged contradiction in the Bible so I wouldn't be surprised if a religion, whose followers seem to be much more devout, and has got centuries of theological tradition as well, did the same
Reply

جوري
01-13-2008, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, I don't think I'm learning Arabic anytime soon(although I'd love, despite its erm peculiar sound its grammar seems fascinating) , but certain lingusitic issues can be discussed without the knowledge of it, since there's multiple translations and tafsirs.
you are actually on to something.. despite the fact that Arabic sounds harsh and 'pecuiliar' in the Quran it is always melodious and perfect..

listen to any sura.. here is one..
to get the rhyme and meaning, in and of itself is no small feat, even if I were to ignore all else, including that mentioned in previous post


Media Tags are no longer supported
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جوري
01-13-2008, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Christians have refuted virtually every alleged contradiction in the Bible so I wouldn't be surprised if a religion, whose followers seem to be much more devout, and has got centuries of theological tradition as well, did the same
that isn't an appropriate debate stratgey.. you need to bring specific points and examine them.. it needs to be satisfactory to the heart and mind.. not simply to quell a worry on the account there is a major competitor...
to begin with biblical history and Quranic history are quite different.. even in the process of preservation..


cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't understand what that means or what you are trying to say..
If the author considered the mountains and tehir construction to be a part of the creation of the earth he could have mentioned them in the first verse.

The word repetition. I guess this is the only thing I find truely remarkable about the Quran. This is the very reason I started investigating Islam. Being a math lover I am rather sensitive to number issues.
Anyway, yes, I do think it is possible for a man (literate or illiterate) to produce a book with such repetitions.
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
that isn't an appropriate debate stratgey.. you need to bring specific points and examine them.. it needs to be satisfactory to the heart and mind.. not simply to quell a worry on the account there is a major competitor...
to begin with biblical history and Quranic history are quite different.. even in the process of preservation..


cheers
I know. Don't you find it amazing that people would justify contradictions and mistakes in a book as distorted as the Bible? Belief always finds a way.
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Haven't seen anything to parallel this in the other books.. many christians still think the earth is still 6000 yrs old. Perhaps modern science steals from ancient scriptures who knows? but which one came first? modern science or the Quran?
Oops, forgot this part.
2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

The Quran came first, modern science came second, people looking for parallels betwen them came third.
Reply

جوري
01-13-2008, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If the author considered the mountains and tehir construction to be a part of the creation of the earth he could have mentioned them in the first verse.
why?

The word repetition. I guess this is the only thing I find truely remarkable about the Quran. This is the very reason I started investigating Islam. Being a math lover I am rather sensitive to number issues.
Anyway, yes, I do think it is possible for a man (literate or illiterate) to produce a book with such repetitions.
You are entitled to your opinion.


cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-13-2008, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
why?
I built a house in two days
I placed the roof and installed the furniture in 4 days
I built a fence around my lot in 2 days.

It's just not right...

I'm goping to bed now. Good night and cheers!
Reply

جوري
01-13-2008, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Oops, forgot this part.
2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Do you have this in original Aramaic? unlike the bible the Quran hasn't been changed through the centuries to fit the tide..

The Quran came first, modern science came second, people looking for parallels betwen them came third.
Ah.. early Muslims excelled in science due to the Quran.. look at the state of Arabia pre-Islam and in its golden age...
undoubtedly something came along to create that dichotomy..


I believe sometime in your future, you might examine verses more closely and be like brother woodrow.. but who knows..

anyhow I must be off to pray isha..

been a pleasure




cheers
Reply

Trumble
01-14-2008, 12:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Do you have this in original Aramaic? unlike the bible the Quran hasn't been changed through the centuries to fit the tide..
It was written in Greek, not Aramaic (and it is not quoting Jesus). If you are suggesting it was changed in the light of ideas introduced in the Qur'an you really do need to put up some evidence... there is no indication that any changes of that sort have ever occured in the NT. It is far more likely the exchange was the other way around.. or, for the theists, I suppose, from the same source several hundred years apart!

Ah.. early Muslims excelled in science due to the Quran.. look at the state of Arabia pre-Islam and in its golden age...
The civilization excelled in science compared with it's contemporaries, certainly. So did that of the Greeks a thousand years previously. What evidence links that to the contents of the Qur'an rather than the prevailing social and intellectual environment?
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جوري
01-14-2008, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
It was written in Greek, not Aramaic (and it is not quoting Jesus). If you are suggesting it was changed in the light of ideas introduced in the Qur'an you really do need to put up some evidence... there is no indication that any changes of that sort have ever occured in the NT. It is far more likely the exchange was the other way around.. or, for the theists, I suppose, from the same source several hundred years apart!
amazing isn't it? considering that Aramaic was the language of jesus? I have no interest in putting up where they got their info from or how it evolved along the way.. it doesn't affect the Quran one way or the other..

The civilization excelled in science compared with it's contemporaries, certainly. So did that of the Greeks a thousand years previously. What evidence links that to the contents of the Qur'an rather than the prevailing social and intellectual environment?

here are some suggested reads as to how Islam picked up where Greeks failed a thousand year prior.

and how Islam influenced science rather than a prevailing movement--
You also really ought to study arabia a bit before the advent of Islam and what became of it afterwards..

The first Muslim physician is believed to have been Muhammad himself, as a significant number of hadiths concerning medicine are attributed to him. Several Sahaba are said to have been successfully treated of certain diseases by following the medical advice of Muhammad. The three methods of healing known to have been mentioned by him were honey, cupping, and cauterization, though he was generally opposed to the use of cauterization unless it "suits the ailment." According to Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Muhammad disliked this method due to it causing "pain and menace to a patient" since there was no anasthesia in his time.[2] Muhammad also appears to have been the first to suggest the contagious nature of leprosy, mange and sexually transmitted disease;[3] and that there is always a cause and a cure for every disease,[2] according to several hadiths in the Sahih al-Bukhari, Sunan Abi Dawood and Al-Muwatta attributed to Muhammad, :
another link
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=003...OR-enlargePage

M. H. Hart, "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History." Hart Publishing Co., New York, 1978.

S. H. Nasr, "Science and Civilization in Islam." New American Library, Inc. New York, 1968, pp.184-229.

A. Salam, IAEA Bulletin, 22(2): 81-83, 1980.

D. Campbell, "Arabian Medicine," Cambridge University Press, 1921, pp. 56-57.

5. P. Hitti, "The Arabs: A Short History", Henry Regnery, Chicago, 1943, p. 143.

A. Castiglioni , "A History of Medicine", E. Krumhbhaar (trans), Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1958, p.268.

M. Siddiqui, "Studies in Arabic and Persian Medical Literature", Calcutta University, Calcutta, 1959, p. XX.

T. E. Keys, K. G. Wakim, Mayo Clinic Proceedings of the Staff Meeting, 28: 423-437, 1953.

E. Abouleish, J. Islamic Med. Assoc. (JIMA) 10(3,4): 28-45, 1979.

L. Burton, " 1001 Nights (Six Volumes)", 1884.

C. Singer and A. A. Underwood, "A Short History of Medicine", 2nd edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1962, p. 76.

B. Miller, Mankind, 6(8): 8-40, 1980.

A. A. Khairallah, Ann. Med. Hist. 34: 409-415, 1942.

Al-Okabi, Hospital Med. Prac., Cairo, 1: 14-29, 1971.

F. S. Haddad, "XXI Int. Cong. Hist. Med.", (Vienna 1968, Sep. 22), 1970, pp.1600-1607.

F.S. Haddad, Leb. Med. J. 26: 331-346, 1973.

C. Elgood, " A Medical History of Persia", Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1951, pp. 278-301.

F. H. Garrison, "History of Medicine", 4th Edition, W. B. Saunders Co., Philadelphia, 1929. P.134.


peace!
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-14-2008, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hmmm5
Dude, you don't get the point don't you. Yes, if these were written by men alone I would accept the mistakes but you should know that Christians claim that this men were inspired by the Holy Spirit, one third of the trinity. SO! How could the Holy Spirit inspire the two writers to write different stories. The whole point is that these verses were actually were written by men alone without any such inspiration. GOT it?
Dude? Why are you referring to another human being by a term that means "ingrown buttocks hair"?


Now, what is my point in asking the above quesiton, when I am aware that you were really just using colloquial language? To point out that words can have different meanings to different folks. So one has to know the context in which a word is used.

I for one do not think that to say the Bible is "inspired" is equivalent to saying that it is both inerrant and infallible. Indeed, I myself can point to several discrepancies in the Bible that never made the list. But that is irrelevant to most of the concerns raised by objectors. An "inspired" writer is one prompted by God, but not necessarily dictated to by God.

Sure there are some Christians (and I suppose Jews as well) that think of the Bible as a book that was dictated by the Holy Spirit, some even imagine God directing the hand author's hand. But that is not what is meant by the word "inspired". In fact, the words "infallible" and "inerrant" are never found in scripture, let alone used by the Bible to describe itself. The term that is relevant is "θεοπνευστος" (theopneustos), which can be translated "inspired", but is better translated "God-breathed". The term "theopneustos" is used a grand total of 1 time in all of the Bible: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16). I don't assume that the passage is automatically self-referent as if it can declare itself to be inspired, but even allowing for that, take a look at what it IS and what it IS NOT claiming.

The word is a compound word from the Greek words "theos" (God) and "pneo" (to breathe). Neither the process nor the result of the inspiration is dealt with. What we are left with is the "why" of inspiration. It makes scriptures useful for life in the church. Just as when God breathed into Adam he breathed life into him, animating him. So God breathes life into the scriptures giving life to them in a way that they can become animated in our lives. I will leave it to others to discuss any supposed errors or fallibilities with regard to the scriptures. I simply testify that their is life in the words of scripture, enough so to transform the lives of those who take them seriously and allow them to be authoritative in their lives. And that is the only claim the Bible actually makes for itself.
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-14-2008, 04:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
the word was mistranslated, corrupted as in changed or revised. And you can't argue with the fact that the bible has been changed because I can name over 100 bibles, I think somone already did, but anyway, the quran was right ofcourse, about the bible being corrupted. I don't understand how this is uncomfortable for muslims. do explain :)

Peace brother,
Omari

Sure, I can argue with the question of corruption. The existence of 100, or even 1000, different Bibles proves nothing. These "different" Bibles you are talking about are not so much different "Bibles" as they are different "translations" from the same Bible. I will certainly admit that the Bible we have today is NOT the original Bible, if you had said that, I would not have challenged you. (Though I think the degree of change it has undergone might be surprisingly little.) But you didn't cite as a way to substantiate your position, and I just wanted to point out that the number of different Bibles available because of the translation process is really no different from the number of different translation I can access of the Qur'an. I don't suppose you would accept 100 different translations of the Qur'an as proof of anything, and I wouldn't expect you to. So, why cite the same thing with regard to the Bible.

The appropriate question is can we get back to the source documents. The answer to that with regard to the Bible is, No we cannot get back to the source document. But before you get all excited by that acknowledgement, know that we can get more reliably close with the Bible than with any other document (or set of documents, remember the Bible is a collection of many different documents) of the same or greater age. Even without the source documents and only copies of copies, some with obvious errors in them, I still maintain a high degree of confidence in the integrity of the Christian scriptures.




Or rather than speaking of 100 different Bibles, you might have spoken of just 2 different Bibles:
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

ACTUALLY, that's NOT true! Protestant and Catholic Bibles have a different number of books, and within some of the books that ARE accepted, there are verses that no-one can agree on and believe were "added" later. all the early manuscripts vary; that being said, not my kind of thread...

:sl:
The "Catholic" Bible has 7 more books in it that the "Protestant" Bible does not have in it. Those books are called the Deuterocanon. They are accepted as canonical, that is as being a part of scripture, by both Catholics and Orthodox Christians, primarly because they were in the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Jewish Tanakh) used by first century Christians as their Old Testament. Protestants do not consider those books canonical, not a part of the scriptures, because at the time of the writing of the Septuagint the Jews had not actually codified the Tanakh yet. When they finally did a few hundred years later, they did not include in their official list of canonical books for the Jewish Bible all of the books that had been part of the Greek translation. So, the Protestant reformers in trying to get back to what they thought the original should have looked like, accepted only the books that were accepted by the Jews for inclusion in the Old Testament. And that is how Christians end up with 2 different Bibles, but not 100s of different Bibles.
Reply

Woodrow
01-14-2008, 04:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I built a house in two days
I placed the roof and installed the furniture in 4 days
I built a fence around my lot in 2 days.

It's just not right...

I'm goping to bed now. Good night and cheers!
I was a structal steel draftsman for 15 years, I was a Paramedic for five years and I was a Psychology Graduate student for 3 years and a University Lecturer for 3 years. Total length of time for that was 15 years. No contradiction in times. I was all of them in the same 15 year time span.

In the same way your example could have been done in a 4 day period. Multi tasking is a reality.
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-14-2008, 05:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
And for my case, well, I can say, I never did something bad in my life. I'm a good citizen, so, will God (if he exist) forgive me, and let me to Paradise too?
If not, then God would be cruel, no? I lead my life, sinless, always faithful to my wife, and yet, I get punished. This makes a non-sense for me.
guabano, I don't know you, so this isn't really about your personally. But I can't say I have evern met anyone for whom the term "sinless" could actually be applied. In fact, having spent some time working in the Federal Prison system, I can tell you that I have never met a US citizen of the age of majority that had not done something that was not sufficient to spend time in a federal prison.

I share with you a passage from a book I am reading, in questioning why, when holiness is so basic to Christian life that we don't see people actually living holy lives, he suggested the following reasons:
1) Our attitude toward sin is more self-centered than God-centered. We are more concerned about our own "victory" over sin than we are about the fact that our sins grieve the heart of God.

2) We have misunderstood "living by faith" (Galatians 2:20) to mean that no effort at holiness is required on our part. In fact, sometimes we even suggest that any effort on our part is "of the flesh."

3) We do not take some sin seriously. We have mentally categorized sins into that which is unacceptable and that which may be tolerated a bit.

The Pursuit of Holiness, by Jerrry Bridges
I know that last one trips me up. I make much of other people's sins and light of my own. Or are you really suggesting that you are truly sinless? If you are, you don't need forgiveness, you will have earned heaven, just like our Muslims friends plan to. Forgiveness is only needed if you are a sinner like me. But if it is needed, then we have to trust that God is actually able to provide away despite our sinfulness. That is the essence of what faith is about, trusting in God to make a way for us when we are unable to make a way for ourselves. Because I am convinced that only the truly sinless, or God-justified and declared sinless will spend eternity with a God who is so holy that he cannot abide sin.
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guyabano
01-14-2008, 07:32 AM
@Grace Seeker

Thank you so much, that you take the bait. I just hope, someone would do it, as I like to point out to this thread and also Jesus' words 'The one who is free from sin may through the first stone'. According to this, I'm pretty sure, noone is free from sin, thus, none will ever see pardise, Muslims nor Christians
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Whatsthepoint
01-14-2008, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Ah.. early Muslims excelled in science due to the Quran.. look at the state of Arabia pre-Islam and in its golden age...
undoubtedly something came along to create that dichotomy..
Well, yes. Isalm brought stability, it united the Arabs and consequentially let them concquer other civilisations (as I described in another topic), it created a great social system that encouraged the seeking of knowledge, progress etc.
I don't think the Quran itself was a source of scientific knowledge at that time.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-14-2008, 02:28 PM
9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask.
11. Then He turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
Do muslims believe this to be the literal description of the creation of the earth? (the lenght of a day aside)
Do you believe the chronological order of the creation is descriebd accurately? Doy you believe the earth and the smoke actually replied to Allah?
And what does "we adorned the lower ehaven with lights" mean, according to Islam? What does "provided with gurad" mean?
What does the coming together of the smoke and the earth signify?
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Whatsthepoint
01-14-2008, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I was a structal steel draftsman for 15 years, I was a Paramedic for five years and I was a Psychology Graduate student for 3 years and a University Lecturer for 3 years. Total length of time for that was 15 years. No contradiction in times. I was all of them in the same 15 year time span.

In the same way your example could have been done in a 4 day period. Multi tasking is a reality.
Well, it's different. And anyway, your statement as well as the verses are confusing, something which I would not expect from a religion that advertizes the simplicity of its theology. I am aware this is a biased subjective claim, but that's how I feel.
It say the Erath was created in two days.
Then it goes talking about seting mountains onto it and giving it sustenance without making a clear distinction between the two acts. Or does it? Does the Arabic version describe both events in a simoultanious-actions way? Does it decribe the second event(sustenance) any different?
Why does seting mountains go under the creation of the Earth, yet giving it sustenace doesn't?
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Grace Seeker
01-14-2008, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
@Grace Seeker

Thank you so much, that you take the bait. I just hope, someone would do it, as I like to point out to this thread and also Jesus' words 'The one who is free from sin may through the first stone'. According to this, I'm pretty sure, noone is free from sin, thus, none will ever see pardise, Muslims nor Christians

Well, I think that you would find agreement that no one is free from sin -- though we would give different reasons for that statement. But on the other hand both Islam and Christianity have answers for what to do about sin. Quite different answers mind you, but both attempt to provide a way to resolve the problem it creates.

Like you, Islam likes to say that we simply do more good than bad, and that keeps us on the positive side of the balance sheet. As a Christian, I don't see that working, as I understand God's standard to be absolute perfection. Any falling short at all, even the slightest, becomes exclusionary. The sort of cleanness of soul that God expects is even stricter than the folks working in clean environments to manufacture microchips in silicon valley.

The Christian answer is simply that on our own we can never be good enough. Which at first would be a message of despair. But we do not believe that we are on our own. We also believe that God can and does work in our lives to accomplish in us and for us what we are unable to do for ourselves. But of course, that requires not good works on our part, but a willingness to let God actually have the freedom to be at work in our lives. A process some people seem to resist to their own peril.
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Omari
01-14-2008, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't think the Quran itself was a source of scientific knowledge at that time.
Unfortunatly, you have accidently [perhaps] mistaken again. You see the quran said the earth was round when everyone thought it was flat. Quran said the sky was free standing, when people thought the mountains held it up. The Quran told them the EXACT stages of the embryo in the womb, when nobody at the time even thought about. So you see, the Quran was, and still is full of scientific knowledge, because it's the word of god :)

Omari:peace:
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Trumble
01-14-2008, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
You see the quran said the earth was round when everyone thought it was flat.
A total myth, I'm afraid.. the second part, that is. Wikipedia has an excellent article on the subject.

Quran said the sky was free standing, when people thought the mountains held it up.
Which people? That would be 'everyone' again, would it?

The Quran told them the EXACT stages of the embryo in the womb, when nobody at the time even thought about.
Firstly it's not quite as 'exact' as some would have you believe. Secondly, the Qur'an merely reproduces what had been written centuries earlier by the Greek physician Galen. It's only fair to point out that Purest Ambrosia and others might take issue with that so I won't present it as 'definitive'.. but I will suggest you do some research yourself outside 'Islamic' websites, if you haven't already.

So you see, the Quran was, and still is full of scientific knowledge, because it's the word of god :)
You mentioned earlier that you see it as your duty as a muslim to argue and debate the case for Islam with non-muslims. That's laudable enough, but please don't take offence if I suggest you look elsewhere than Qur'anic 'science' for material. I, and the other atheists here, may not necessarily be right but all of us (I think) have seen all the evidence for Quran'ic science and are totally unconvinced by it. In my very humble opinion, a couple of points are interesting and thought provoking. Most simply do not stand up to more than the most cursory examination.
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جوري
01-14-2008, 08:06 PM
maybe we should stop getting our knowledge from wiki and reference history books instead?

a little google search for all you google scholars who aren't into libraries will do..just type in

Al-Idrisi see what comes up
( The World's First Globe)



Al Idrisi, who died in 932 AD, was a renaissance man, a world class geographer. He prepared the world's first globe out of 400 pounds of silver for the king of Sicily Roger II. The globe showed the trade routes and detailed measurements. He also prepared a detailed companion book. Centuries later, Europeans continued to believe that the earth was flat.



I am pressed for time today and can't go at it tit for tat..but I really do urge folks to go for some credible history books instead of wiki and get pouty about using 'islamic' references.. that is if any of the sources on the bottom of this page were http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post897682

but if we really must use wiki as an authority, then by all means

Islamic World
Around 830 CE, Caliph al-Ma'mun commissioned a group of astronomers to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to al-Raqqah, in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the distance between them to be 66 2/3 miles and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles.[5]

Many Muslim scholars declared a mutual agreement (Ijma) that celestial bodies are round, among them Ibn Hazm (d. 1069), Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 1200), and Ibn Taymiya (d. 1328).[6] Ibn Taymiya said, "Celestial bodies are round—as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians—it is likewise the statement of the scholars of Islam". Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad Ibn Hazm, and Abul-Faraj Ibn Al-Jawzi have said that the Muslim scholars are in agreement that all celestial bodies are round. Ibn Taymiyah also remarked that Allah has said, "And He (Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a Falak." Ibn Abbas says, "A Falaka like that of a spinning wheel." The word 'Falak' (in the Arabic language) means "that which is round.[7] [8]

The Muslim scholars who held to the round earth theory used it in an impeccably Islamic manner, to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the earth to Makkah (Mecca). This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer. Muslim mathematicians developed spherical trigonometry which was used in these calculations.[9] Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), in his Muqaddimah, also identified the world as spherical.


cheers
Reply

Omari
01-14-2008, 08:08 PM
I honestly don't take any offence in anything people say, though it may seem like it [unless somone directly attacks muslims ] . The one thing that should be forbidden in a debate is getting emotional as that defies the whole point.

Anyhow.

I'm sure that you have read [as you said] all of the scientific knowledge in the quran and are totally unconvinced. Could this be [i say this is NO OFFENCE] your unintended ignorance as oppose to the detail of the evidence? because i hope you have considered the fact that had the Quran given EXACT EXACT details, it would be hard to belive and follow over 14 centuries ago...
once again no offence
Omari
Reply

Trumble
01-14-2008, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
maybe we should stop getting our knowledge from wiki and reference history books instead?
I generally use a range of sources, but the Wiki article is concise, well written, well referenced and as far as I am aware, accurate. Should you actually have any case against the contents rather than the name of the site, please present them. Or don't, if you are short on time.. the claim I was contesting was that believing the world to be flat was universal - it clearly wasn't.

format_quote Originally Posted by Omari
The one thing that should be forbidden in a debate is getting emotional as that defies the whole point.
Possibly, but it is human, particularly when the subject is one you feel strongly about. :)

Could this be [i say this is NO OFFENCE] your unintended ignorance as oppose to the detail of the evidence? because i hope you have considered the fact that had the Quran given EXACT EXACT details, it would be hard to belive and follow over 14 centuries ago...
once again no offence
Omari
None taken, of course. But I did answer that in my previous post, I do not believe that the Qur'an does give "EXACT, EXACT" details, or at least any more exact that a Greek writer managed several centuries earlier. I am not medic of any variety let alone a specialist in this area, so my opinion counts for little, but nonetheless that is the conclusion I have drawn by reading articles from both medical professionals and laymen on both sides of the 'fence'. With all due respect, I suspect you are just as reliant on others for information in this area as I am.. so how can you be so sure? But if you have reached that opinion after consideration of the case from both sides rather than merely one, we must agree to differ.
Reply

جوري
01-14-2008, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I generally use a range of sources, but the Wiki article is concise, well written, well referenced and as far as I am aware, accurate. Should you actually have any case against the contents rather than the name of the site, please present them. Or don't, if you are short on time.. the claim I was contesting was that believing the world to be flat was universal - it clearly wasn't.
I believe I already have above including the 'accurate and referenced wiki'... getting you to read it or believe it, is an entirely different story all together.. it is your God given rigtht to babble on the importance of one negligible source, in face of cold hard evidence as documented and taught in history books.
I have learned of Al-Idrisi and other Muslim scholars in the 7th grade attending the 'united Nations International school' in NY, I was taught history by an atheist woman names Miss Aouldus..she disliked Muslims but at least she taught proper history, the state curriculum!
Luckily I have a photographic memory and it has served me well!


cheers
Reply

Kurisu
01-14-2008, 09:13 PM
The greeks thought it was spherical long before. Which doesn't change the fact that it isn't spherical, it's an oblate spheroid, but it was a good guess nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

I know everyone hates wikipedia but google is right there and comes up with as many references as you can eat.
Reply

Trumble
01-14-2008, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I believe I already have above including the 'accurate and referenced wiki'... getting you to read it or believe it, is an entirely different story all together.. it is your God given rigtht to babble on the importance of one negligible source, in face of cold hard evidence as documented and taught in history books.
Erm... forgive me, but amid the waffle I'm still unsure exactly what part of the the Wiki article are you disputing? Could you perhaps quote the part(s) you object to? I might then be able to appreciate how your last post managed to refute them? :sunny:
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Woodrow
01-14-2008, 10:05 PM
I believe that after 7 pages of posts the only conclusion we can arrive at is that 101 refutations ore even 100001 are going to serve to sway the beliefs of anybody.

The fact is the poorest refutation possible is to try to prove somebody is wrong. No matter how much proof is given that something is wrong, it offers absolutely no proof that we are right.

It only leads to an unending argument and an argument is not a debate.
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