G.I.s Killed

[meepzorb]

Iraqi official says bodies of missing GIs found
Signs of 'barbaric' torture; U.S. military awaiting positive ID from DNA
NBC News and news services
Updated: 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The bodies of two U.S. soldiers reported captured last week have been found and the men appear to have been “killed in a barbaric way,” a senior Iraqi general said Tuesday. A statement posted on a militant Islamic Web site said the two men were killed by the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq.

U.S. Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said the remains, found late Monday by American troops, were believed to be those of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore.

Caldwell said the cause of death was “undeterminable at this point,” and that DNA tests would be conducted to confirm the identities.

The two disappeared after an insurgent attack Friday at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal south of Baghdad and near the town of Youssifiyah. Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Mass., was killed. The checkpoint was in the Sunni Arab region known as the “Triangle of Death” because of frequent ambushes there of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi troops.

The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division from Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

'Barbaric' deaths
The director of the Iraqi defense military’s operation room, Maj. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Mohammed, said the bodies showed signs of having been tortured. “With great regret, they were killed in a barbaric way,” he said.

Mohammed also said the two bodies were found on a street near Youssifiyah. The U.S. military could not confirm that account.

The bodies are to be flown to the military’s forensics lab in Dover, Del., for autopsies and to make positive identifications, U.S. military officials said. Any formal declaration of death will be withheld until the bodies are positively identified.


U.S. soldiers found the bodies based on a tip from a reliable Iraqi source, military officials told NBC News. U.S. forces had to literally fight their way to the bodies; enemy forces laid a series of improvised explosive devices, also known as IEDs, on the primary route to the bodies.

“The news is going to be heartbreaking for my family,” Ken MacKenzie, Menchaca’s uncle, told NBC’s “Today” show. He said the United States should have paid a ransom from money seized from Saddam Hussein.

“I think the U.S. was too slow to react to this. Because the U.S. did not have a plan in place, my nephew has paid with his life.”

Claims of kidnapping, killing
On Monday, the Mujahedeen Shura Council said it was holding two U.S. privates captive and taunted the U.S. military for failing to find the soldiers despite a search involving more than 8,000 Iraqi and American troops.

A statement posted on a militant Islamic Web site Tuesday said the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq killed the soldiers.

The statement, which could not be authenticated, said the two soldiers were “slaughtered,” suggesting they had been beheaded. The Arabic word used in the statement, “nahr,” is used for the slaughtering of sheep by cutting the throat and has been used in past statements to refer to beheadings.

U.S. officials believe the new leader is Abu Ayyub al-Masri, the chief bombmaker for al-Qaida in Iraq. NBC VIDEO

The group offered no video, identification cards or other evidence to prove that they kidnapped or killed the soldiers. The group had vowed to seek revenge for the June 7 killing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq, in a U.S. airstrike.

The council also said it was responsible for the June 3 kidnapping of four Russian Embassy workers. The two separate postings could not be authenticated, but they appeared on a Web site known for publishing messages from insurgent groups in Iraq.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about the claim by the Shura Council that it was holding the soldiers, said: “We have no independent confirmation of that report.”

Ahmed Khalaf Falah, a farmer, has told The Associated Press that he witnessed seven masked gunmen seize the soldiers near Youssifiyah, about 12 miles south of Baghdad.







Maybe a few guys being held at Gitmo should be 'used' to send a message to the 'mujjies'. Turn about is fair play.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Maybe a few guys being held at Gitmo should be 'used' to send a message to the 'mujjies'. Turn about is fair play.

what do you mean by this.

[meepzorb]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Ghazi]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

:sl:

Huh? again what do you mean by this and that ;D

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[seeker_of_ilm]

:sl:

what do you mean by this.

:sl:

I'm guessing he's saying that the US should do to the Detainees at Gitmo...what the fighters in Iraq do to the US soldiers?

[KAding]

Aren't Muslims supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

Or are those that captured these American soldiers not Muslims?

[Ghazi]

:sl:

It was their own fault they knew the risks they joined the army they went to war wasn't gonna be a picknick.*Want to blame someone blame the US goverment.

[seeker_of_ilm]

Aren't Muslims supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

Or are those that captured these American soldiers not Muslims?

:sl:

Muslims ARE supposed to treat prisoners of war with respect, and Islam teaches this. However these people weren't acting in accordance with Islam.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

I'm guessing he's saying that the US should do to the Detainees at Gitmo...what the fighters in Iraq do to the US soldiers?

:sl:

Not sure if they were taken as prisoners but what happened could've been avoided a simple kill would've done the job.

[KAding]

:sl:

It was their own fault they knew the risks they joined the army they went to war wasn't gonna be a picknick.*Want to blame someone blame the US goverment.

So you think those who captured these soldiers did not act against Islamic teachings?

[seeker_of_ilm]

:sl:

Not sure if they were taken as prisoners but what happened could've been avoided a simple kill would've done the job.

:sl:

reported captured last week

They are claimed to have been taken prisoners.

[Ghazi]

So you think those who captured these soldiers did not act against Islamic teachings?

:sl:

Those words never came out my mouth, they're alot of things that group does that's against islam.

[meepzorb]

:sl:

It was their own fault they knew the risks they joined the army they went to war wasn't gonna be a picknick.*Want to blame someone blame the US goverment.

So if the U.S., say, flies a helicopter over Ramadi and pushes out a few Gitmo guys to splat all over town, that would be cool because they knew what they were in for when they took up arms ? That would be a pretty strong message. :thankyou:

[Ghazi]

So if the U.S., say, flies a helicopter over Ramadi and pushes out a few Gitmo guys to splat all over town, that would be cool because they knew what they were in for when they took up arms ? That would be a pretty strong message. :thankyou:

:sl:

It wouldn't be cool, lets say for a sec they're guilty and they did take up arms then they would know what they're in four and expect tough times ahead.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

So if the U.S., say, flies a helicopter over Ramadi and pushes out a few Gitmo guys to splat all over town, that would be cool because they knew what they were in for when they took up arms ? That would be a pretty strong message. :thankyou:

It'd also be stupid. I hate this revenge crap "you did this to my people, so i'ma nuke yer backside". If you don't want your soldiers to die, then pull them out of Iraq.

[meepzorb]

:sl:....they would know what they're in four and expect tough times ahead.

Getting your head sawed off while still alive is a little more than a 'tough times...' I still like the helicopter idea. As we say in baseball, that would be a hell of a 'message pitch'. :hiding:

[seeker_of_ilm]

Getting your head sawed off while still alive is a little more than a 'tough times...' I still like the helicopter idea. As we say in baseball, that would be a hell of a 'message pitch'. :hiding:

:sl:

With all due respect, that is a rubbish idea. So because beheading is inhumane, you fight it with something equally, if not more inhumane? I don't see much logic in that.

[Ghazi]

Getting your head sawed off while still alive is a little more than a 'tough times...' I still like the helicopter idea. As we say in baseball, that would be a hell of a 'message pitch'. :hiding:

:sl:

You wanna live for ever don't go to war simple as stay in watch CNN play "Call of duty".

[meepzorb]

:sl:....that is a rubbish idea. So because beheading is inhumane, you fight it with something equally, if not more inhumane? I don't see much logic in that.

Sometime you have to 'stoop' a little. :hiding:

[Muezzin]

Sometime you have to 'stoop' a little. :hiding:

Is that you Bob?

[Woodrow]

Revenge is always a poor option. When a person seeks revenge, it is giving into their own sense of gratification. Revenge is an excuse to feel good about killing. Killing should not ever be a choice of pleasure or gratification.

Revenge is placing the ultimate judgement upon the life of another person. Who on this earth is capable of judgement?

[Wahid]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sure go ahead and do it if u can. :thankyou:
About beheading that’s the Islamic way of killing a person, as practiced in the time of the Prophet(PBUH) and still in practice in Saudi Arabia

About torture read my sigy, we are ‘allowed’ repay in kind what has been inflicted upon us but 'not' start the cycle (ie do something first before any provocations of same kind)

I know this sounds harsh but it is Islamic from what i understand, and war is no picnic


P.S. keep in mind that we are talking about soliders here

[meepzorb]

Is that you Bob?

You tell me, moderator man. :giggling: ( congrats. ) :hiding:

[Muezzin]

You tell me, moderator man. :giggling: ( congrats. ) :hiding:

Thanks. Though, to tell the truth, I have to ban you now as you're a previously banned member posting under an alias, which is against the rules. :)

[KAding]

Sure go ahead and do it if u can. :thankyou:
About beheading that’s the Islamic way of killing a person, as practiced in the time of the Prophet(PBUH) and still in practice in Saudi Arabia

About torture read my sigy, we are ‘allowed’ repay in kind what has been inflicted upon us but 'not' start the cycle (ie do something first before any provocations of same kind)

I know this sounds harsh but it is Islamic from what i understand, and war is no picnic

P.S. keep in mind that we are talking about soliders here

Wow, really? Islam allows prisoners of war to be executed? And even torture in revenge? Might I ask where it allows such thing in Islam? Is it in the Qu'ran?

I once read a website on on POWs in Islamic Law and I don't remember them saying any such thing.
http://islamtoday.net/english/showme...sub_cat_id=491

Neither does IslamOnline.net.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle05.shtml

Why the disagreement? Or am I misreading things here, thats also quite possible :).

[Trumble]

Revenge is always a poor option. When a person seeks revenge, it is giving into their own sense of gratification. Revenge is an excuse to feel good about killing. Killing should not ever be a choice of pleasure or gratification.

Revenge is placing the ultimate judgement upon the life of another person. Who on this earth is capable of judgement?

What an unbelievably different and better world it would be if everybody thought that way. :(

[wilberhum]

When you use evil to fight evil, the outcome is guaranteed..
Evil will win.

[Wahid]

Wow, really? Islam allows prisoners of war to be executed? And even torture in revenge? Might I ask where it allows such thing in Islam? Is it in the Qu'ran?

reread my post and my sigy :thankyou: and yes prisoners defiantly can be executed(or ransomed depending on the choice of the commander in field) as was done by Ummar(ra) and in Islamic wars during the Prophets(pbuh) time

[Ghazi]

When you use evil to fight evil, the outcome is guaranteed..
Evil will win.

:sl:

What do you suggest fight them with flowers?

[Muezzin]

When you use evil to fight evil, the outcome is guaranteed..
Evil will win.

But when you fight fire with fire, the outcome that is guaranteed is a really lame song :p

But seriously, good post. That quote from Ghandi about an eye for eye leaving the whole world blind comes to mind.

[Wahid]

But when you fight fire with fire, the outcome that is guaranteed is a really lame song :p

But seriously, good post. That quote from Ghandi about an eye for eye leaving the whole world blind comes to mind.

salam
heh we been through this, is Ghandi the new prophet whose words supercede the Quran?

[Ghazi]

:sl:

People who hold the view of no war and such are plain stupid the minute they're attacked there survival instincts kick in and they become hyprocrites.

[Woodrow]

:sl:

People who hold the view of no war and such are plain stupid the minute they're attacked there survival instincts kick in and they become hyprocrites.

Wars can and will be.

In the entire written history of the Human race, there has been less then 15 minutes of total world wide Peace. ( I heard that someplace, I do not no where I originaly heard it)

Now knowing that, we do have to be aware that each generation will be involved in warefare at some time. What we need to strive and pray for is that we will not be the aggressors and that in spite of the horrors of war we can still uphold our values and treat people as we would want to be treated, not in accordance with what we believe to be just.

Perhaps it is because it is something we know our children and grandchildren will one day face that we tend to glorify war. Yet, stop and think. When we glorify war and want (enjoy it) to participte are we not giving worship to a false god? Is not loving and wanting to be a combatant the same as worshiping the false god Mars?

Most of us that have served in combat, look back in our later years and we see that what we thought then as glory was merely giving justification to act out our foulist deeds.

A true soldier is one who can win a battle with out injurying a single person. Now, that can not be attainable, but a true soldier will try to achieve it. Success in warfare should not be measured in how many of the enemy are killed, it should be measured in the lives saved on all sides.

Stop and think, any person killed will be either a Muslim, or a person who is potentialy a Muslim if left to live. A person you hate today, could become a great scholar tomorrow.

[Ghazi]

Wars can and will be.

In the entire written history of the Human race, there has been less then 15 minutes of total world wide Peace. ( I heard that someplace, I do not no where I originaly heard it)

Now knowing that, we do have to be aware that each generation will be involved in warefare at some time. What we need to strive and pray for is that we will not be the aggressors and that in spite of the horrors of war we can still uphold our values and treat people as we would want to be treated, not in accordance with what we believe to be just.

Perhaps it is because it is something we know our children and grandchildren will one day face that we tend to glorify war. Yet, stop and think. When we glorify war and want (enjoy it) to participte are we not giving worship to a false god? Is not loving and wanting to be a combatant the same as worshiping the false god Mars?

Most of us that have served in combat, look back in our later years and we see that what we thought then as glory was merely giving justification to act out our foulist deeds.

A true soldier is one who can win a battle with out injurying a single person. Now, that can not be attainable, but a true soldier will try to achieve it. Success in warfare should not be measured in how many of the enemy are killed, it should be measured in the lives saved on all sides.

Stop and think, any person killed will be either a Muslim, or a person who is potentialy a Muslim if left to live. A person you hate today, could become a great scholar tomorrow.

:sl:

I agree but I'm sick of people who come out with phrases as there's never good enough reason for war and and such cause they're just hyprocrites.

[wilberhum]

What do you suggest fight them with flowers?

Do you condone using evil?

[Ghazi]

Do you condone using evil?

:sl:

What do you consider evil?

[wilberhum]

What do you consider evil?

Check a dictionary.

[Ghazi]

Check a dictionary.

:sl:

I know what the word means but I want your definition on whats evil is their a particular act which your refering to?

[wilberhum]

I want your definition on whats evil is

Well take some guesses. I will tell you if you are right. I’m not about to spend hours trying to educate an indoctrinated.

[Ninth_Scribe]

:sl:

what do you mean by this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rules of engagement are the key here. The U.S. invasion of Iraq WAS illegal and the atrocities that followed were equally so... abu graib, etc.

I hate what happened, all of what happened, to everyone... but I don't rule this world. The Shia death squads torture Sunnis because Sunnis fight for their country (by any means possible because they're really out-gunned). The Sunnis behead the Shia for bringing in the U.S. and the U.S. acts like it's shocked by what it sees here? It caused all this in the first place! Well thanks to Bush, and his blood-lust for Zarqawi, the message was delivered. Compassion doesn't work... and for those who thought Zarqawi was bad... boy are you about to learn a nasty lesson!

Ninth Scribe

[Trumble]

The Shia death squads torture Sunnis because Sunnis fight for their country (by any means possible because they're really out-gunned). The Sunnis behead the Shia for bringing in the U.S. and the U.S. acts like it's shocked by what it sees here? It caused all this in the first place!

Hardly. There was a long 'history' between the two long before the Americans became involved. But its so much easier just to blame them, isn't it?

Compassion doesn't work

And killing does?

.. and for those who thought Zarqawi was bad... boy are you about to learn a nasty lesson!

Considering that most of those learning the "nasty lesson" will be probably be Iraqi non-combatants I'm surprised at your apparent enthusiasm. al-Muhajer has even less business in Iraq than the Americans, his purpose is only to sow death and chaos. May his career be short.

[Muezzin]

salam
heh we been through this, is Ghandi the new prophet whose words supercede the Quran?

Did I say that? An eye for an eye where it's justified is what I take from those words, not just tit-for-tat, no matter what your enemy is doing. For example if your enemy kills children, so you kill children in return, are you any better than your enemy?

[mbaig]

Aren't Muslims supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

Or are those that captured these American soldiers not Muslims?

Aren't American's supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

Or are those that captured these innocent iraq's human?

[KAding]

Aren't American's supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

Well yes they should. And those that mistreat prisoners should be punished.

[root]

Aren't American's supposed to treat their prisoners of war with respect?

As a former soldier I have to say that their is an "unwritten" law in regards to POW's. Here it is,

If you come accross militia, expect no quarter and give no quarter

I mean those US soldiers were prity dumb, but I can't condone them for thinking they may actually survive the ordeal. Hindsight suggests they would have been better holding the ground they stood on and fighting.......... Afterall, to a certain extent that is what they are their to do.

I also beleive that more attempts will be made to abduct military personell & that the troops in Iraq will have discussed this with their budies. This is a good thing because many studies have been made that show an ultra quick response time is given in a situation where you have already "programmed your brain" how you will respond to a given situation. (survival chances, are increased by determining what you will do prior to an event occuring), you programme your brain simply by "thinking" a response when an event happens that you have already "thought" that thought is actioned immediately as opposed to thinking about it at the time, which is a little late.

I hope next time, the soldiers involved make an "unpredicted" move such as pulling and arming a grenade!!!! You better beleive the abducters will "think" what to do next buying a valuable second or two.

Those one or two seconds would give you a fighting chance in the world of chaos and if all else fails you blow up and hopefully take some of them with you, personally, I would rarther show some balls that I had no fear and could also be a suicide bomber than be tortured to death.......

Just a personal opinion

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,


For me it boils down to this..

Is it Islamic to torture?
No
Is it Islmaic to murder wihout reason?
No
Is it Islamic for revenge?
Yes

In times of the Prophet how were prisoners treated?
Humanely and civilly...

This is just like that time,here you have evil poeple coming to Iraq,torturing,murder and rape Iraqis left and right..
And the Iraqis are angry...
And thier passion is fevered..

Is it their right for revenge?
YES..
Should they treat their prisoners as they are treated?
No..

Should they will this Jihad in spite of Islmaic laws?
NO..

For by winning this war,they lose the laws of Islam.For they thus become that which they hate.

But it is human to react in the face of such situation.
Fight for Allah,fight for Justice....but do not abandon Islamic laws...

[Ninth_Scribe]

Hardly. There was a long 'history' between the two long before the Americans became involved. But its so much easier just to blame them, isn't it?

I accuse President Bush of exploiting the known division - but in Rue's thread, I did say the people responsible for that division in the first place were directly to blame... they created the circumstances that could be exploited. I think I actually boiled it down to: Do you know the phrase Divide and Conquer?

I didn't let anyone off the hook. I'm aware of the history... still sorting this mess out.

Considering that most of those learning the "nasty lesson" will be probably be Iraqi non-combatants I'm surprised at your apparent enthusiasm. al-Muhajer has even less business in Iraq than the Americans, his purpose is only to sow death and chaos. May his career be short.

I'm NOT enthusiastic, but much like the "Criticise the US-led coalition and you will be imprisoned" thread, I'll just say the out-come was that predictable. It's all a matter of pouring gas on the open flame. This no-win situation is getting worse by the minute... and no, I don't buy the idea that the general public are inclined to believe that the WAR is so one-sided: We're the good guys taking on these medieval monsters. The truth is that maybe if we didn't invade the country in the first place, we wouldn't have pushed the limits to where they are now. Or do you plan on trying to convince me that things were this bad BEFORE we invaded?

Ninth Scribe

[Syed Nizam]

So if the U.S., say, flies a helicopter over Ramadi and pushes out a few Gitmo guys to splat all over town, that would be cool because they knew what they were in for when they took up arms ? That would be a pretty strong message. :thankyou:

Actually, the US have actually have done much worse than that.... remember Vietnam? remember Mai Lai massacre? Now we've got Iraq... and the Haditha massacre! That's only the tip of an iceberg of atrocities committed by american GI's in any war.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Is it Islamic to.......

Never mind what is and isn't Islamic for a moment - let's focus on what is and isn't Human.

I get the fact that we have to kill to live (physically) and I suspect that part of Nature created the condition in which we feel the need to kill to live (emotionally, mentally and spiritually). But that's just my pet peeve.

The situation is that the human condition shares four faculties: Physical need, emotional desire, intellectual expression and spiritual awareness. Of these four, only two are present at the point we've reached in Iraq. Those are emotional desire and spiritual awareness. Physical needs and intellectual expressions are cut off from the picture.

Trying to find a better way to explain this. Hmmm. That's a tough one. Try this. If you take a flash light and shine it through four doorways, the light passes through them all so you have a better view of what's on the other side (security). If you close two of those doorways and try to shine your light, it won't shine through them... and you won't be able to see what's on the other side (insecurity). Allah's light is like this. You can't get hung up on one level to the point where it becomes more important than the others, because the uncertainty is that undesirable.

Until someone figures out how to open those doorways and line up their light... no one can actually see where their going. So these people do things that they normally wouldn't do. The leaders as well! I heard the king of Jordan placed his own pride above the law and refused Zaqawi's family a burial, saying he didn't want Zarqawi to stain Jordanian soil! Has that dude any real idea of what's been buried in Jordanian soil? It's a bit too late for him to care about what his dirt is made from... and this didn't hurt Abu Musab at all. I could go on... I've kept quite a record of the actions and reactions that have reverberated from this whole ordeal. At this stage, no one is in a position to say they're 'better-than' the others. It just goes round in circles, like a fight between children over a sandbox: Well I only did this because he did that... and... and.... and!

Ninth Scribe

[KAding]

Actually, the US have actually have done much worse than that.... remember Vietnam? remember Mai Lai massacre? Now we've got Iraq... and the Haditha massacre! That's only the tip of an iceberg of atrocities committed by american GI's in any war.

It definately the tip of the iceberg of atrocities in Iraq. On a daily basis markets, recruitment centers, funerals, and even mosques are being attacekd by car bombs and suicide attacks.

Nobody seems to care much about those attrocities though. The Western media only mentions them quickly in the news and the Muslims are too focussed on Americans to notice I suppose.

[Ninth_Scribe]

It definately the tip of the iceberg of atrocities in Iraq. On a daily basis markets, recruitment centers, funerals, and even mosques are being attacekd by car bombs and suicide attacks.

Actions beget Reactions... don't recall car bombs being much of a problem before this all began, so my Judgement stands firm... we're NOT helping!

Ninth Scribe

[Zulkiflim]

Never mind what is and isn't Islamic for a moment - let's focus on what is and isn't Human.

I get the fact that we have to kill to live (physically) and I suspect that part of Nature created the condition in which we feel the need to kill to live (emotionally, mentally and spiritually). But that's just my pet peeve.

The situation is that the human condition shares four faculties: Physical need, emotional desire, intellectual expression and spiritual awareness. Of these four, only two are present at the point we've reached in Iraq. Those are emotional desire and spiritual awareness. Physical needs and intellectual expressions are cut off from the picture.

Trying to find a better way to explain this. Hmmm. That's a tough one. Try this. If you take a flash light and shine it through four doorways, the light passes through them all so you have a better view of what's on the other side (security). If you close two of those doorways and try to shine your light, it won't shine through them... and you won't be able to see what's on the other side (insecurity). Allah's light is like this. You can't get hung up on one level to the point where it becomes more important than the others, because the uncertainty is that undesirable.

Until someone figures out how to open those doorways and line up their light... no one can actually see where their going. So these people do things that they normally wouldn't do. The leaders as well! I heard the king of Jordan placed his own pride above the law and refused Zaqawi's family a burial, saying he didn't want Zarqawi to stain Jordanian soil! Has that dude any real idea of what's been buried in Jordanian soil? It's a bit too late for him to care about what his dirt is made from... and this didn't hurt Abu Musab at all. I could go on... I've kept quite a record of the actions and reactions that have reverberated from this whole ordeal. At this stage, no one is in a position to say they're 'better-than' the others. It just goes round in circles, like a fight between children over a sandbox: Well I only did this because he did that... and... and.... and!

Ninth Scribe

Salaam,

Perhaps you do not undrstand what is Islam is for a muslim.

It is life simple as that.

As i say,win or lose,,,but do nto break the laws of Islam,,,,
Once you say you are a muslim then you are bound by the laws of Islam.

It is not like saying that i am a muslim but i do not fast on ramadhan nor do i pray 5 times a day.,..i merely do it in spirit,,,that is an innovation...an innovation in matter of religion is HARAM..

So that is why when we hear all this we always say it is UNISLAMIC...

Our feeling our need are unimportant,ISLAM is important.

Again i say,would you win despite losing your soul?

Or as many kafir say,would you sell your soul to the devil to win?

[Isaac]

well what did people expect to happen to them if they were caught? Inncoent iraqis are being killed and tortured by God knows who, so do you think that these troopers were going to get any better treatment? No. Well know how do you think the average iraqi feels everyday when he/she steps out in the street, fearing that they may be abducted, killed or tortured. See when it hits home then it hurts 100 times over. This happens to 10+ iraqis evryday. For most troopers they are hard targets, confined in their military compunds, green zones, armoured vehicles, and groups of batallions. So when they do catch a trooper its like a golden trophy. At the end of the day, the invading forces illegaly invaded iraq, killed innocent people, tortured inncoent people, bombed inncoent people, and loced up innocent people, were the root cause for sectarioan violence, so to the iraq you deserve it.

[Ninth_Scribe]

As i say,win or lose,,,but do not break the laws of Islam,,,,

Understood, but there are extenuating circumstances at play here. This situation is not the normal day-to-day. I agree that some of the scholars have over-stepped the bounds in their interpretations, but you can't just hand over your lands every time someone else wants them either. I'm not overly concerned with the who did what at this point. That will get sorted out later on... after this world. But if I judge everyone here and now, without compassion... we'd ALL be in the soup! That's all I'm saying. I'm trying to get ahead of this fire, not so much worrying about what's already burned.

Ninth Scribe

[diverdown]

So from some of the posts in this thread it seems like pushing a few 'mujjies' out of a helo would be 'par for the course.' and a perfectly 'clean' act of war. What would the world say if the U.S. hacked a few Gitmo guys heads off and then sent them home ? Could you imagine Rumsfeld sawing some Gitmo dudes head off and then sending the tape to Al Jazeera ?!?! Holy Moly !! I, for one, would love to see that happen, if only for the reaction. There is a story from late '70's Beruit. A Russian diplomat was kidnapped and killed, so the Russians took a relative of the person they thought did the deed, cut his 'naughty bits' off, stuffed them down his throat, shot him in the head, and sent him home. No more kidnapped Russians. Good object lesson. Maybe the U.S. could learn a thing or two from this.




'It's raining men, Halleluia, It's raining men , Amen.'

[Isaac]

well why leave it upto rumsfield, why dont u do it?

[wilberhum]

Again:
When you use evil to fight evil, the outcome is guaranteed.
Evil will win.
This stupid tribal concept is sick. You condone:
If a member of Tribe A wrongs a member of Tribe B,
Then all members of Tribe B can do anything to any member of Tribe A.
Sick. No one is responsible for the actions of others.

[diverdown]

well why leave it upto rumsfield, why dont u do it?

The 'Rumsfeld effect' would be the 'kicker'. But in the meantime, bring me a 'mujjie'. :giggling:

[Isaac]

like i said it hurts alot more when its one of your own, but remember the average iraqi goes through this everyday. everyday an iraqi is killed, tortured, behaeded.

[diverdown]

like i said it hurts alot more when its one of your own, but remember the average iraqi goes through this everyday. everyday an iraqi is killed, tortured, behaeded.

I understand killing the G.I.s. It's war. But what is up with the beheading and mutilation thing ? They seem to love 'playing' with corpses. These guys do it to the U.S. and thier own.

[watcher]

It was their own fault they knew the risks they joined the army they went to war wasn't gonna be a picknick.*Want to blame someone blame the US goverment.

If this is the explanation for the mutilation of US/Coalition forces, then what explanation is there for the Civilian contractors that were killed, and mutilated since April 2003?

There have been at least 340 civilian (NOT MILITARY) contractors killed in Iraq since April 2003. Of these, 32 were executed/beheaded, executed/gunshot, kidnapped/murdered, or just executed. Of these 32, 11 were from Egypt, Lebanon, Pakistan or Turkey (all with Muslim sounding names). They worked in such warlike occupations such as: engineers, truckdrivers and cooks/cleaners.

What justification is there for executing these 32 civilians, more than 1/3 of whom were not "infidels" but Muslims?

[Joe98]

….remember the average iraqi goes through this everyday. everyday an iraqi is killed, tortured, behaeded.

It is the insurgents doing it, not the Americans.

….. Inncoent iraqis are being killed and tortured by God knows who …..

By the insurgents.

….well what did people expect to happen to them (US soldiers) if they were caught?

Why don’t Iraqis try to catch the insurgents?

….At the end of the day, the invading forces illegally invaded Iraq…..

At the end of the day, Saddam invaded Kuwait. He lost that war and signed a case fire agreement. He broke that agreement and the war continued 9 years later.

[hidaayah]

It is the insurgents doing it, not the Americans.

then what are the so many American troops doing there?

[Joe98]

then what are so many American troops doing there?

Eating oranges?

Why are the Japanese soldiers there?

[Isaac]

and what was the root cause, the ILLEGAL occupation by usa and its allies. so like i said it hurst when its one of your own, but remember it happens everyday to the average iraqi, by murderers, wheter they are iaqis, americans britihs, it happens everyday. this is the ill of figting war without a follwoing the rules of war. hey but you dont see these iarqis who are bombed or killed, having there names read out on public news, you dont hear blair or bsuh sending there condolonces to their families after killing them. do you even know any of the names of innocent iraqis killed. see with troops they are not innocent they are legal and a respectful target. so like i said it hurts more when its one of your own. remember this happens everyday to the average iraqi, by the britsih, usa and iraqis who are gone mad in the head. and who deserve to be wiped out. i tink all the average iraqis regardless of shia or sunni should wipe out the root cause the occuyping ilegal troops. they said they would let the iraqis have freedom, bull.

[Isaac]

eating oranges today, eating bullets 2morrow. did you know that the usa is the biggest supplier of ammunition to world conflicts. thre was an exceelnt report on this and it was not by a small margin either, it was like way ahead in supplying ammunition for weapons. who would have guessed otherwise. the fire starter.

[muzna]

100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, says study

Sarah Boseley, health editor
Friday October 29, 2004
The Guardian

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces,[/B][/B] according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts.

The study, which was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of Iraq representative of the entire population, shows that violence is now the leading cause of death in Iraq. Before the invasion, most people died of heart attacks, stroke and chronic illness. The risk of a violent death is now 58 times higher than it was before the invasion.

Last night the Lancet medical journal fast-tracked the survey to publication on its website after rapid, but extensive peer review and editing because, said Lancet editor Richard Horton, "of its importance to the evolving security situation in Iraq". But the findings raised important questions also for the governments of the United Sates and Britain who, said Dr Horton in a commentary, "must have considered the likely effects of their actions for civilians".

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers who went to the 988 households in the survey were doctors and all those involved in the research on the ground, says the paper, risked their lives to collect the data. Householders were asked about births and deaths in the 14.6 months before the March 2003 invasion, and births and deaths in the 17.8 months afterwards.

When death certificates were not available, there were good reasons, say the authors. "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded. Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths," they write.

They found an increase in infant mortality from 29 to 57 deaths per 1,000 live births, which is consistent with the pattern in wars, where women are unable or unwilling to get to hospital to deliver babies, they say. The other increase was in violent death, which was reported in 15 of the 33 clusters studied and which was mostly attributed to airstrikes.

"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground," write the researchers. Only three of the 61 deaths involved coalition soldiers killing Iraqis with small arms fire. In one case, a 56-year-old man might have been a combatant, they say, in the second a 72-year-old man was shot at a checkpoint and in the third, an armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families.

"The remaining 58 killings (all attributed to US forces by interviewees) were caused by helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial weaponry," they write.

The biggest death toll recorded by the researchers was in Falluja, which registered two-thirds of the violent deaths they found. "In Falluja, 23 households of 52 visited were either temporarily or permanently abandoned. Neighbours interviewed described widespread death in most of the abandoned houses but could not give adequate details for inclusion in the survey," they write.

The researchers criticise the failure of the coalition authorities to attempt to assess for themselves the scale of the civilian casualties.

"US General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying 'we don't do body counts'," they write, but occupying armies have responsibilities under the Geneva convention."This survey shows that with modest funds, four weeks and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a useful measure of civilan deaths could be obtained."

[Joe98]

"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground," write the researchers.

In one case, a 56-year-old man might have been a combatant, they say, in the second a 72-year-old man was shot at a checkpoint and in the third, an armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families.

Gosh!

[Panatella]

P.S. keep in mind that we are talking about soliders here

Actually, far more civilians have had thier heads sawed off than soldiers.

[Ninth_Scribe]

eating oranges today, eating bullets 2morrow. did you know that the usa is the biggest supplier of ammunition to world conflicts.

Just got that report in today. This one is almost as rediculous as the deal they gave to Israel: Well, we'll give you the F-16s but you have to promise us that you won't use them for military purposes. Hahahaha! So Israel wanted them for what - lawn decorations? And still, the U.S. believes it has the right to be ticked off at Iran for selling weapons? If they can dish it out - they can swallow.... hard!

Though I will say, this new Al Qaeda leader scares me. Dragged, beheaded and drawn and quartered? Was all that necessary? He's a smart one though. No internet media streams... he must know how easy it is to track an IP address to it's ISP user account via date and time of log-on and I'm sure he's figured out how lethal GPS technology can be. I did risk my butt posting that warning on my website back in May, but....

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

and what was the root cause, the ILLEGAL occupation by usa and its allies.... snip .... you dont hear blair or bsuh sending there condolonces to their families after killing them. do you even know any of the names of innocent iraqis killed.

I keep those records, but you're right... I do have to dig deeply for them because no one seems to care about that here.

No worries. President Bush is making the same mistake Hitler did. He's going to spread democracy in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Korea. A four-fold free-for-all is in the making. But he's one of those religious types who thinks all this is Armegheddon and its supposed to happen.

:grumbling

Ninth Scribe