Is Bin Laden Muslim/Islamic?

[nimrod]

Folks, I have been wondering about this.

It seems to me, that at least a good bit of the time, that when someone states what was done “In the name of Islam”.
If it was a good thing, then all the better, if it was bad, then the “They” weren’t really Muslims.

What I would like to know is this:

What actions, makes a person Muslim or not a Muslim?

Does a person have to follow EXACTLY what Islam teaches, in order to be a Muslim?
Can a person mess up today and repent tomorrow and still be a Muslim the whole time?
Can a person act according to Islam 80% of the time, and 20% not, and remain a Muslim?

Do you have to follow Islam perfectly in order to be Muslim?

Pay attention. This will show up on the test later.

Thanks
Nimrod

[lolwatever]

Yes you have a reeeally good poitn there...

erm unfortunately that notion of 'they're not really muslim' kicks in alot in politics when Muslims just try to run away from things by labelling others as not being Muslim

There are what we call 'the fundamentals' of Islam, (for example teh 5 pillars of Islam) which, if broken render someone a non Muslim.. then you have the secondary aspects, if someone braeks these rules, at same time knows they are wrong, they are sinful but not excluded from the boundary of Islam.

But if these secondary (or primary) things are broken with the sinner thinking 'Allah is wrong' or 'I dont believe in those points' (whilst knowing the evidences) then he is excluded.

sorry that is soo over simplified.. but yeh its more than just whims.. it's a science called 'Aqeedah' (creed)... there's a few really good books out there that explain the matter.. ill c if ne of them are in english and ill get bak2u

take care all the best

[al-fateh]

Perhaps a good starting point would be to answer the question from a negative viewpoint i.e. what is not a Muslim? In this way we can rid ourselves of certain misconceptions that exist.Islam is not confined to any race, colour or creed. It is not dependent on any sacramental ceremony or ritual. It is not the prerogative of any caste nor is it the custom of our forefathers.
It has nothing to do with wealth or ambition or intellectual prowess. And it certainly is not something we pretend to embrace to make ourselves acceptable to our fellow human beings.
The first step in becoming a Muslim is to consciously and solemnly declare that "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad (Sallallaahu æ#129;layhi Wasallam) is the Prophet of Allah". By so doing one is entitled to all the rights and is bound by all the obligations of Islamic law.
However, this declaration of faith is alone insufficient to assure one of salvation. A further requirement is that one required to do deeds and works of righteousness and virtue so to transform the declaration into a living reality.
Of course, the scale of righteousness and virtue is infinite there is no point at which a Muslim may say that he has enough to earn salvation.
Indeed, it is Allah alone who decides whether one has done enough to enter the gates of Paradise and He may well reject the greatest and most virtuous deeds on account of lack of faith and insincerity while at the same forgiving one who has sinned deeply.
A Muslim is one who is both the humblest and the proudest of Creatures. This may appear to be contradictory but is not so.
A Muslim is the humblest because he submits himself completely to Allah, the Creator, the Provider, the Ruler, the Forgiver, the Judge, the First Cause and the Final End of everything, in essence the Ultimate Reality.
Allah is the object of adoration, praise and worship, the One Master to Whom the whole of one's life is devoted in dedication and service.
A Muslim is the proudest precisely because of this loyalty to Allah. Nothing and no one is worthy of such loyalty. In this regard it is a well known fact that many people submit themselves to rulers and tyrants instead of submitting themselves to Allah but in doing so they are violating the essence of their faith.
On account of their acknowledgement that Allah above is Master. Muslims are revolutionaries who champion the cause of human freedom everywhere. It is deplorable to a Muslim when people set up money, sex, power or pleasure as their object of worship. But when a tyrant demands absolute loyalty from his citizens, a loyalty which is the sole and exclusive preserve of Allah, then rebellion against such tyrant, and his ultimate over-throw, becomes a Muslim's prime religious objective.
There can be no greater meaning in a Muslim's life than to fulfil and make real Allah's will on earth. However, no little burden falls on the shoulders of a Khalifah of Allah on earth. Firstly, the task has no geographic or territorial limitations. A Muslim's duty encompasses every corner of the globe. Secondly, the task is not confined to any particular race, colour or creed. The problems of mankind as a whole are the problems of every Muslim, who is bound to confront these problems and to seek solutions.
These tasks are the obligations of, and the source of pride to every Muslim and are in fact the destiny of every Muslim.
Obviously, to live the life of a Muslim is to live dangerously. But Muslims believe that it is also to live with the highest expectation, the greatest promise and the deepest joy of which humans are capable.
In conclusion we shall give a basic answer to a basic question and say that to be a Muslim is to submit oneself to the Will of Allah - nothing more, nothing less.

[north_malaysian]

Whosoever saying "There is no God but the God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of the God" is a Muslim.

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[nimrod]

Lol-Whatever, Thanks, if you find the articals in english, I would be interested.

Al-Fateh, I will spend some time studying what you have posted, Thanks.

North_Malaysian, you do understand that Bin Ladin says that "There is no God but the God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of the God", but he isn't Muslim. Right?????

Thanks
Nimrod

[north_malaysian]

[QUOTE=nimrod;372694]North_Malaysian, you do understand that Bin Ladin says that "There is no God but the God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of the God", but he isn't Muslim. Right?????/QUOTE]

He is a Muslim. Anybody who said the shahadah want to be treated as a Muslim.

There are bad Muslim, good Muslim, crazy muslim, playboy muslim, pious muslim, educated muslim etc.

[nimrod]

Folks, there was a point raised, on a different thread.

In response, I have to ask:

Is Bin Ladin Muslim?
Is he Islamic?

If a person say's that a certain thing was done by Muslim/Islam and they refer to Bin Ladin????????

Thanks
Nimrod

[Woodrow]

I have seen several stories about that issue. There are those who claim Bin Laden is not a Muslim. There are also those who say he is. I do not personaly have any first hand knowledge either way.

[Bittersteel]

he is Muslim but a murderer.

[Woodrow]

Nimrod, a difficult concept for non-Muslims to grasp is that we as Muslims are very limited in saying who is not a Muslim. We can only identify non-Islamic deeds a person does. The only person we can consider Non-Muslim is a person who says he is not Muslim or if it can be shown that a person is calling himself Muslim for the act of treason etc.

Yes a Muslim can become non-Muslim themselves by commiting the unforgivable sin of shirk.

[north_malaysian]

He is a Muslim, but not Islamic. Like Dodi Al Fayed, he is a Muslim, but not Islamic. Like Idi Amin, he is a Muslim, but not Islamic.

Muslims are not kinda people that saying their brothers or sisters as non muslims just because these people have done Unislamic things.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Why do I get the feeling this thread is just gonna lead to backbiting?

[SirZubair]

Yes,he is a Muslim.

But his actions arent considered ISLAMIC.

Here,this is a 'little' something i dug up for you from a couple of years ago.

Wa'salaam.

• An Islamo-dent into popular (anti-Muslim) essentialist discourse ... :evil:
  
  Enjoy :dance: :dance: :dance:
  =============================================
  
  Violence Is A Human, Not An Islamic Trait
  By: Hussein Ibish*
  The Philadelphia Inquirer ( 1 February 2004 )
  
  
  
  
  The idea that Islam, and by extension Muslims, are inherently violent and irrational has become commonplace in our culture.
  
  This misperception, with deep origins in the historical rivalry between Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East, was intensified by the Arab-Israeli conflict and a slew of bigoted Hollywood movies, and gained a solid foothold in the minds of many Americans after 9/11.
  
  Since 9/11, right-wing evangelical preachers such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, and commentators such as Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes, have spared no effort to spread fear and hatred of Islam and the growing American Muslim community.
  
  This defamation probably has its greatest parallel in the anti-Semitic ideas that took hold in American culture between the First and Second World Wars. The charges directed against the American Jewish community - now eerily echoed by anti-Muslim rhetoric - smeared a religious minority as dangerous and subversive aliens. The Father Coughlins and Henry Fords of that era, and ours, found the political space to promote prejudice yet remain "respectable."
  
  Certainly the 19 hijackers responsible for the carnage of 9/11 saw themselves as Muslims. But so, of course, did about 300 of their victims. And it is true that the United States faces a threat from al-Qaeda and like-minded organizations. But so, of course, does the entire Arab and Islamic world, in which almost all governments and most people are committed to the war against al-Qaeda, and which is home to most of the victims of such fanaticism.
  
  Some point to the glories of Muslim Spain, the notable tolerance and multiculturalism of the Ottoman Empire, or the relative peacefulness of the Islamic world over the past millennium compared to Christian Europe to make the case that Islam is essentially an agent of peace.
  
  The more complex truth is that the Islamic world, at present and historically, is composed of a vast constellation of human beliefs, experiences and endeavors - a dizzying multiplicity, not a monolith. Like all great civilizations and cultures, those of the Islamic world have produced more than enough of the good to demand the highest respect, and enough of the bad to prohibit any complacency or chauvinism on the part of Muslims.
  
  More than 1.3 billion people are Muslims, constituting about one fifth of humanity. Hence, the entire range of human experience and orientation can be readily found among them.
  
  The Nigerian novelist Chinua Achebe said simply that "Africa is people." So is the Islamic world. Not better or worse, villain or victim, but simply people. Violence, extremism and intolerance are universal human failings. They certainly are not particular to any culture or faith.
  
  * Hussein Ibish is communications director for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee
  
  ================================================== =================
  
  :star: FURTHER READING :star:
  
  Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam
  
  Shattering the Myth—Islam Beyond Violence
  
  Do Muslims Kill Their Opponents?
  
  Freelance Jihad: Crusaders & the Soldiers of Allah
  
  Killing the “Other” to Please the “LORD”!
  
  Are Violence and Extremism Islamic Phenomena?
  
  What Future For Muslim Identity?
  
  De-Demonising Islam (PDF)
  
  Is Faith Both the Cause and the Cure of Violence?
  
  Why Is The West Inflating Fear Of Arabs & Muslims?
  
  Islam and the West Are Inadequate Banners
  
  Eleven Things to Know About the Middle East and Arabs
  
  A Field Guide to Islamic Activists
  ==> How Media Forms Perceptions
  
  Wilful Imaginings
  
  Aren't You the Terrorist on TV?
  
  Islam and the Language of Terror
  
  Australian Muslims Under Pressure
  
  The Fear of Muslims
  
  Bin Laden in the Suburbs: Criminalising the Arab Other
  
  Talkback Racists Targeting Muslims
  
  Muslims: The Terrorists and Rapists of Australia?
  
  The Racialisation of Crime
  
  Criminal Gang or Islamic Gangs?
  
  Ripped From The Headlines: How Should TV Shows Portray Muslims?
  ==> We Are All Barbarians:Racism, Civility and the "War on Terror"
  
  THE George Munster Forum: Reporting The ‘War on Terror’
  
  Learning to Dance In the New Suburbia
  
  One Super Supreme Multicultural Pizza, Hold the Tolerance, Thank U (PDF, Page. 9)
  ==> Islamophobia: A challenge 4 Us All (PDF)
  
  "FAIR-GO" WATCH: The ISMA Report 2004
  
  Throwing Up the Blame Barricades
  
  Islamophobia: Is It Racism?
  
  Demonisation of Australian Arabs and Muslims
  
  Islam — "Fastest Growing Faith in Australia"
  
  Race For the Headlines: Racism & Media Discourse
  
  Council Faces Court After Rejecting Muslim Centre
  
  Speaking Back to Violence
  
  Racism In Australia: Findings of A Survey on Racist Attitudes & Experiences of Racism (PDF)
  
  Muslims In Australia: The New Disadvantaged?
  
  Fact Sheet: Australian Muslims
  ==> The Responsibilities of the Muslim Intellectual in the 21st Century
  
  A Hoax in Holy Mantle
  
  The Confusion of the Scholars
  
  Muslims Must Develop An Intolerance For Intolerance
  
  Our Islamic Fine-Tuning Project
  
  ==> Islam: Misunderstood Throughout the World
  
  Changing the West's Image of Islam
  
  Who Is Shaping the Image of Islam?
  
  What Should Be Our Relationship With The Formidable Media Machine?
  
  Crisis/Media: The Uncertain States of Reportage
  
  EI: Media Activism Advice
  ==> Some Suggestions 4 Inter-civilization Dialogue
  
  Understanding Islam
  
  The Other Face
  
  Islam and the West in a Transmodern World
  
  2morrow's Islam
  
  Living With Difference: Islam in Europe
  
  10 Steps to A More Tolerant Australia
  
  Conversation Over Cross-Cultural Coffee
  
  For These Three, Kindness Begins in the Hearts of Innocents
  
  It's a Good Sign When the Bloke in the Pub Says Peace Be Upon U

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[afriend2]

:sl:

Why do I get the feeling this thread is just gonna lead to backbiting?

salaam,

yeah me too...

i think this thread should be closed on account of who are we to judge someone?

wassalam :peace:

[...]

he is Muslim but a murderer.

And what exactly makes u say that?!!! How can u believe this media and all the news that the kafar tell us as if it were true?!!
it's so obvious that Bin Laden isn't responsible for all of that stuff that the media say he's done! I don't understand why people shut their eyes to the truth and blindly agree with the media.

[SirZubair]

salaam,

yeah me too...

i think this thread should be closed on account of who are we to judge someone?

wassalam :peace:

Maybe the Dodi Al Fayed / Idi Amin examples was going overboard,but as for the Topic,i dont see any reason why it should be shut down.

Nobody is backbiting,its a simple question and can be dealt with with a simple answer. (or by providing a hundred links like the post above....)

wa'salaam

[SirZubair]

And what exactly makes u say that?!!! How can u believe this media and all the news that the kafar tell us as if it were true?!!
it's so obvious that Bin Laden isn't responsible for all of that stuff that the media say he's done! I don't understand why people shut their eyes to the truth and blindly agree with the media.

Sister,please,..pretty please,...with sugar ontop...

..enlighten me/us.

how is it 'so obvious' that brother bin laden isnt responsible for all that stuff ?

Wa'salaam.

[afriend2]

Maybe the Dodi Al Fayed / Idi Amin was going overboard,but as for the Topic,i dont see any reason why it should be shut down.

Nobody is backbiting,its a simple question and can be dealt with with a simple answer. (or by providing a hundred links like the post above....)

wa'salaam

salaam,

im not saying that you are backbiting, however things can result in it due to personal thoughts.

Allahu Alam as to what and who Bin Laden is. how can we for certain know the true facts, instead we go by media and things we have heard.

"And do not backbite one another. Would anyone of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother?"

and something that is considered worse than backbiting is slander....

Allah knows best.

wassalam :peace:

[...]

Sister,please,..pretty please,...with sugar ontop...

..enlighten me/us.

how is it 'so obvious' that brother bin laden isnt responsible for all that stuff ?

Wa'salaam.

ehem *clears throat* To start do u have any other sources other than the famous misleading media to prove that Bin Laden was responsible?

[muslim_friend]

It is clear that Bin Laden wasn't responsible for 9/11. because 1. Unlike his other attacks, he denied this one totally... 2. the evidence shows that 9/11 was state sponsored by America.

But i think he is responsible for the bombings in other parts of the world. And if he really was responsible, he must be punished for it.

[...]

Have any of u watched Farenheit 9/11 or this even better video that i've forgotten the name of?

[SirZubair]

ehem *clears throat* To start do u have any other sources other than the famous misleading media to prove that Bin Laden was responsible?

No,i dont.I do not rely on the media.

I have my doubts,..i Suspect that he is the man behind all that evil work.

If he isnt,then may allah swt forgive me for suspecting him.

If he is,then may allah swt have mercy on him.He will need it.

Now,how about answerig my question...?

Have any of u watched Farenheit 9/11 or this even better video that i've forgotten the name of?

ON SECOND THOUGHTS..

Oh god...

..a michael moore fan.

I give up,im not going to bother arguing with you.

This is one debate that will get nowhere.

Not because mr.moore is very good at what he does,..but because he is nothing more than a big child.

I am going to retire from this thread before i make a mess in this thread,...like i've done in the past few :X

Wa'salaam.

[...]

no i am NOT a michael moor fan. That's just another source other than the media!! And as for ur question have patience coz sis A'isha is posting something up right now.

[Asyur an-Nagi]

i think he is a moslem. but islamic...., we are crawling to reach that state, aren't we?

[Umm Safiya]

:sl:

I thought OBL was a mujahid! :?

[piXie]

:sl:

a bin laden thread again? we had one previously and it got closed.
prediction: thread is gonna be closed shortly :p

but untill then lets disscuss this critical issue about Bin Laden and why every one ( well almost every1 ) thinks he is responsible for 9/11.

firstly how come a country with the latest technology and detecting thingys (i.e. America ) was so vunerable to the 9/11 attacks ? eh? :?

why did the twin towers collapse soooo quickly ? eh :?
surely ther must have been something inside the building to assist th so called 'flat pancake' down fall.

im just curious thts all.....and i want to kno th answers :sister:

[SirZubair]

:sl:

I thought OBL was a mujahid! :?

Call me Mr.President.

:sl:

a bin laden thread again? we had one previously and it got closed.
prediction: thread is gonna be closed shortly :p

but untill then lets disscuss this critical issue about Bin Laden and why every one ( well almost every1 ) thinks he is responsible for 9/11.

firstly how come a country with the latest technology and detecting thingys (i.e. America ) was so vunerable to the 9/11 attacks ? eh? :?

why did the twin towers collapse soooo quickly ? eh :?
surely ther must have been something inside the building to assist th so called 'flat pancake' down fall.

im just curious thts all.....and i want to kno th answers :sister:

I dont have the answers to your questions.

But please,dont start with those idiotic conspiracy theories.

I've heard them all.

Wa'salaam.

[Nablus]

He is a true muslim(mujahid)

[SirZubair]

He is a true muslim(mujahid)

Insha'allah.

I hope so.

That is if he isnt responsible for all those deaths.

If he is,then i pray that allah has mercy on him,and at the same time,punishs him for his evil deeds.

Like i said,..IF.

Wa'salaam

[afriend2]

But please,dont start with those idiotic conspiracy theories.

salaam,

please remember our Islamic etiquettes inshAllah. what may seem "idiotic" to you, may be different to someone else. :)

wassalam :peace:

[muslim_friend]

But please,dont start with those idiotic conspiracy theories.

Lol akhi. i've read them too, they may be unpopular but i wonder what's so idiotic about them? it makes a lot of sense to me. :?

[Umm Safiya]

:sl:

But.. Why discuss this? Does it matter? None of us know if he is responsible for anything anyways, so..

[Isaac]

he is a muslim and inshallah will die with imaan. thats all i can say, im not going to get into the issue of why and how.

[...]

^^^exactly - and sos if i've offended any1

p.s what was that bad rep 4 SirZubair?

[SirZubair]

Lol akhi. i've read them too, they may be unpopular but i wonder what's so idiotic about them? it makes a lot of sense to me. :?

Next you will be telling me that George Bush (JR) Planned the 9/11 bombing.

Go ahead,make my day. :rollseyes

[muslim_friend]

:sl:

But.. Why discuss this? Does it matter? None of us know if he is responsible for anything anyways, so..

Hmmm... You're right.

[afriend2]

:sl:

But.. Why discuss this? Does it matter? None of us know if he is responsible for anything anyways, so..

salaam,

i agree with my sis! like i said, it may be for our best interest that this thread is closed.

wassalam :peace:

[SirZubair]

salaam,

i agree with my sis! like i said, it may be for our best interest that this thread is closed.

wassalam :peace:

I am sorry i didnt agree with you at the beginning,..i agree with you now.

Throw this thread into the loo and flush it down.

[muslim_friend]

Next you will be telling me that George Bush (JR) Planned the 9/11 bombing.

Go ahead,make my day. :rollseyes

Since when did Bush become human?

[Muslim Knight]

:sl:

Brothers and sisters, discussing these matters have no effects whatsoever on the development of Muslim ummah. We're still backwards. Even if we somehow manage to prove Osama is kafir and what not, the fact remains that Muslim communities around the world are still suffering from poverty and oppression. I suggest we divert our time and energy to more productive discussions.

:w:

[...]

^yeah i agree - this thread is down 2 personal opinion, so i suppose there's no point arguing.

[SirZubair]

I have been advised by a brother that i should learn to Cool down.

And seeing as i have failed to do so in this thread,..

..to anyone that i have offended,i apoligise.

Wa'salaam.

-Zubair

[piXie]

I dont have the answers to your questions

Bush does.and many others.only they dont tell us th truth...and any1 who tries to bring out th truth is labelled an extremist or a terrorist. but dont worry. th truth always comes out in th end. no matter how much ppl try to hide it

did u know tht many ppl wernt allowed to talk about 9/11 after it happened.
and america calls itself democratic, a country tht allows freedom of speech. wer did th freedom go then ?

or was bush afraid and didnt want ppl to research and find out th facts about wat really happened?

But please,dont start with those idiotic conspiracy theories.

the idiotic theories come from th media im afraid. th same media tht is controled by those ppl in power who have vested interests to tell lies.the same ppl who hav failed to back up their words with factual solid evidence ever since they blamed bin laden on th morning of 9/11. we shud think twice before believing them.


[QUOTE=SirZubair;372943]I've heard them all.[\QUOTE]

really? which ones have u heard ?

[bint_muhammed]

we have been given rules as mentioned above as who is muslima nd who isnt however the final decision on judgement day is according to Allah. and a question for you GEORGE BUSH ISNT A CHRISTIAN RIGHT?
peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It seems to me, that at least a good bit of the time, that when someone states what was done “In the name of Islam”.
If it was a good thing, then all the better, if it was bad, then the “They” weren’t really Muslims.

The actions of adherents can be linked with the religion if and only if it can objectively be shown that such actions are endorsed by the religion itself. This is a very simple principle. When someone does something 'bad' we say it was unislamic because Islam does not teach such things. But when someone does something good they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings. See this thread on some of the basic prophetic teachings:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...s-prophet.html

What actions, makes a person Muslim or not a Muslim?

A Muslim commiting an unislamic act or an act of kufr (disbelief) does not necessarily take them outside the fold of Islam. In Islam, actions are just according to their intentions as stated in the famous hadith of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. So ignorance, compulsion, desperation...a complex variety of factors may be involved and Muslims are not allowed to simply rush to declare other Muslims to be disbelievers. If a person commits a sin, they are not automatically a disbeliever, they are simply a sinner and they are to repent for that. People who commit unislamic violent actions are sinning, but we cannot automatically declare them outside the fold of Islam.

Pay attention. This will show up on the test later.

Somehow that doesn't strike me as the attitude of someone who is sincerely interested in learning the religion.

[Goku]

Here's one:

Re open 9/11

http://www.reopen911.org/

Prove them wrong and you get a million dollers.

[lavikor201]

It is clear that Bin Laden wasn't responsible for 9/11. because 1. Unlike his other attacks, he denied this one totally... 2. the evidence shows that 9/11 was state sponsored by America.

But i think he is responsible for the bombings in other parts of the world. And if he really was responsible, he must be punished for it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../11/wbin11.xml

[nimrod]

Folks, what I am having trouble with is statements like these:
No Muslim has ever started an un-just war.
Muslims don't do those things.
In order to be Muslim a person must be a Muslim. To be a Muslim means to act as a Muslim.
Islam wasn't spread by the sword because Muslims don't do such things.
Muslims didn't abuse slave women, because Muslims don't do such things.

A Muslim didn't kill Van Gogh, because Muslims don't do such things.
The Twin Towers weren't distroyed by Muslims, because Muslims don't do such things.

Yet......

When the country that aides and harbors Bin Laden is attacked, then it is full of Muslims.

So what I am asking is:

When does a Muslim quit being a Muslim?

Can you be a pious Muslim all your life, and then kill Van Gogh and get killed by the police and yet still be a Muslim the whole time?

If not, then where is the line?

To be a bit more plain spoken, at times it seems to me that, the excuse of "Well they weren't Muslims, because Muslims don't do such things" gets well used around here.

I know that sounds insulting, I don't intend for it to though.

What would go a long in restoring my hopes for Islam and Christians in finding common ground is to start seeing some threads like:

"It is about time we protested in the streets, like we did against those cartoons, in protest to those who kill in the name of Islam in non Islamic countries" and such.

There is so much ill-will and, dare I say hate directed toward the western world on this forum, when it seems to me that some folks will do back flips in order to excuse Bin Ladin and somehow convince themselves that Bush and Blair brought down the towers.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my post, it is just something that has been on my mind.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Folks the question that comes to my mind is this:

If Bin Ladin isn't Muslim/Islamic, then why didn't the "real" Islam take him out already?

If he is Muslim/Islamic then what has been said about some Muslims is true and the old saw about "Muslims don't do such things" rings a little hollow.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Folks, I work all day and then come home and try to get things done. I am re-modeling my kitchen and adding onto it, I am installing log-siding on the house. I have a number of other projects going on right now in addition to working 10 hours a day.

I am staying up extra late tonight in order to have a little on-line time.

You think the thread should be closed?????

Why not leave it open and give folks like me a chance to comment and learn and respond???????

Surely Islame is strong enough for a simple discussion like this one.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Folks, what I am having trouble with is statements like these:
No Muslim has ever started an un-just war.
Muslims don't do those things.
In order to be Muslim a person must be a Muslim. To be a Muslim means to act as a Muslim.
Islam wasn't spread by the sword because Muslims don't do such things.
Muslims didn't abuse slave women, because Muslims don't do such things.

It is possible for someone to do such unislamic acts, but since they are condemned and rejected by Islam, it is futile to identify such an individual with their religion. Though they may be a Muslim, their actions are against Islamic teachings.

Can you be a pious Muslim all your life, and then kill Van Gogh and get killed by the police and yet still be a Muslim the whole time?

You may be a Muslim but not a pious one since such actions are unislamic.

"It is about time we protested in the streets, like we did against those cartoons, in protest to those who kill in the name of Islam in non Islamic countries" and such.

Alas, the protests and condemnations of mainstream Muslims continue to fall on deaf ears, since they don't come through in the media.
http://www.islamicboard.com/370756-post5.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/177527-post41.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/176386-post34.html

There is so much ill-will and, dare I say hate directed toward the western world on this forum

To avoid repetition of ideas, see this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...e-coexist.html

Regards

[Taqiyah]

Asalama Alaikum.........
:heated: I am totally lost......i mean can't we call the bombing and all the stuff Bin laden is doin is kinda JIHAD:? ....
I don't know....:? I am not sure why.......but I never thought of Bin Laden as a bad muslim..:grumbling

[Joe98]

why did the twin towers collapse soooo quickly ?
im just curious thts all.....and i want to kno th answers :sister:

I heard an interview with an architect.

He asked "why did the towers stand up for so long?"

In theory they should have collapsed much faster

[Joe98]

It is possible for someone to do such unislamic but....it is futile to identify such an individual with their religion

The individual identified himself with Islam. It was not the news papers that did so.

[Abdul-Raouf]

Next you will be telling me that George Bush (JR) Planned the 9/11 bombing.

Go ahead,make my day. :rollseyes

After Bin Laden issue we will mooov onto another issue "Is Goerge Bush true christian or not..... he is responsible for the deaths of US soldiers as well as several muslims":uhwhat

[nimrod]

Taqiyah, you make my point very nicely, Thanks.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Taqiyah, if you don't mind me asking:

How old are you and how long have you been a Muslim?

Was/is your family also Islamic?

Thanks
Nimrod

p.s. if you don't feel comfortable giving out any personal information, I do understand.

[Taqiyah]

Taqiyah, if you don't mind me asking:

How old are you and how long have you been a Muslim?

Was/is your family also Islamic?

Thanks
Nimrod

p.s. if you don't feel comfortable giving out any personal information, I do understand.

It is OK.....I don't mind...:rollseyes
I am 15 years old and I have been a Muslim my whole life.:statisfie But not all my family are Muslims.:heated:

[north_malaysian]

Insha'allah.

I hope so.

That is if he isnt responsible for all those deaths.

If he is,then i pray that allah has mercy on him,and at the same time,punishs him for his evil deeds.

Like i said,..IF.

Wa'salaam

I do agree with this statement

[SirZubair]

Asalama Alaikum.........
:heated: I am totally lost......i mean can't we call the bombing and all the stuff Bin laden is doin is kinda JIHAD:? ....

How?

[...]

Asalama Alaikum.........
:heated: I am totally lost......i mean can't we call the bombing and all the stuff Bin laden is doin is kinda JIHAD:? ....
I don't know....:? I am not sure why.......but I never thought of Bin Laden as a bad muslim..:grumbling

killing innocents isn't jihad
:peace:

[north_malaysian]

Asalama Alaikum.........
:heated: I am totally lost......i mean can't we call the bombing and all the stuff Bin laden is doin is kinda JIHAD

By killing innocents? Not in my life!!!! It's never be a jihad!

[------]

:sl:

Why do I get the feeling this thread is just gonna lead to backbiting?

Uh-huh. Agreed. :thumbs_up

[Chief1]

After Bin Laden issue we will mooov onto another issue "Is Goerge Bush true christian or not..... he is responsible for the deaths of US soldiers as well as several muslims":uhwhat

Muzammil,
I think that is a very good question & I have got severe doubts as to where he (Bush) really stands.

[north_malaysian]

Muzammil,
I think that is a very good question & I have got severe doubts as to where he (Bush) really stands.

Bush is a Christian, but not Christianic.

[Chief1]

I hope this isn't off topic, maybe there should be a thread devoted to Bush...
north_malaysian I don't know what you mean by "Christianic" Pardon my ignorance :X
I'm speaking from a Fundamentalist Bible believeing Christian view point & I understand Bush to supposedly come from that angle too. What makes me suspicious about his true standing is that I know as a Fundamentalist you can not have any other secret beliefs or "Gods" aside from the God of the Bible. It's common knowledge that GWB is a member of a secret society (Yales Skull & Bones). Now this should be an obvious GLAREING warning to Fundamentialists Christians that something isn't right here! On top of that it is also known that he has been involved in ceremonies involving the mock sacrifices of children to the god of Molech... Go figure! But Jesus often spoke of "wolves in sheeps clothing" which in my mind is a more fitting description.
I don't mean to offend anyone here (sorry George) but he openly admits to been a part of Skull & Bones.

[i_m_tipu]

:salamext:

How can anyone reject these?:brother:

Several Suicide Hijackers get up from their grave, Alive in the Middle East

Of the 19 alleged hijackers identified by the FBI, at least six turned up alive after the attack. The FBI's identifications included names, photographs, and, in several cases, other personal details -- all of which matched the six persons who surfaced after the attack to proclaim their innocence.

Abdulaziz Alomari

Abdulaziz Alomari was identified by the FBI as the hijacker who accompanied Mohamed Atta from the connecting flight from Portland and helped him hijack and pilot Flight 11 into the North Tower. Abdulaziz told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper: "The name [listed by the FBI] is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York." 1 Saudi Embassy officials in Washington defended the innocence of Alomari, saying that his passport was stolen in 1996 and that he had reported the theft to the police.

Saeed Alghamdi

Saeed Alghamdi, a Saudi Airlines pilot, was identified by the FBI of being a hijacker of Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania. Alghamdi was "shocked and furious" to learn this three days after the attack, noting that his name, place of residence, date of birth, and occupation matched those described by the FBI. "You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive," said Alghamdi, who considered legal action against the FBI.

Salem Al-Hamzi

Al-Hamzi was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 77, thought to have crashed into the Pentagon. Al-Hamzi said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." 4

Ahmed Al-Nami

Al-Nami was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 93. Al-Nami said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked."

Waleed Alshehri

Waleed Alshehri, a Saudi Arabian pilot, was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 11. Alshehri turned up in Morocco after the attack where he contacted both the Saudi and American authorities to tell them he was not involved in the attack.

Abdulrahman al-Omari

Abdulrahman al-Omari, a Saudi Airlines pilot, was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 11. After learning this, he visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation.

Ameer and Adnan Bukhari

Ameer and Adnan Bukhari were named by CNN as suspected hijackers of Flight 175, the jetliner which crashed into the South Tower, in an article dated 9/13/01. In a correction, CNN stated that Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash in Florida, and that Adnan was still alive in Florida, having passed a polygraph test to confirm his innocence

[i_m_tipu]

:salamext: to my muslim bro/sis

I think we have to debate first what some western countries have done to some eastern countries.

It stared when they realize
they
Could not understand the power of Islam,
Could not buy it by any cost
Could not implement their idea and eveil business(any unislamic)
…..when muslims run by islamic law.

Than they thought they cannot make this happened and doing following thing

Conspiracy, terrorism, human right violation, murder people, murder scholar, crashing wealth, crashing property, lying after lying to confuse other in order to raise their support by using the media.…….

Their(leader of the current world) thought killed millions of people
and
will kill million more coming days

They are the master mined of everything.

They are the responsible for every single death Bcoz they indeed started the game.

I see on CNN
One of their top analyst saying that the leader:? of the current world never want Islamic rule in any countries. They will not support (doing their level best to crush) any nation who running by and tiring to established Islamic law. Like Hamas now.....soon somalia

See it is not a view of some Muslims. It’s a real fact like a dead rock that those will crush anything related to establishing Islam.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

Imaam ash-Shawkaanee said, "Judging that a Muslim has left Islaam and entered into Kufr is something that is not fitting for a Muslim who believes in Allaah and the Last Day except with a proof (Burhaan) which is clearer than the daytime sun, since it is established in the authentic hadith reported by a group of Companions that he who says to his brother "O Kaafir!" Then it returns back to one of them." In another wording, "Whoever addresses a man with Kufr, or says 'Enemy of Allaah' and he is not that, then it returns back upon him"


[Hadith reported by Muslim (2/49 - Book of Eemaan).]


more info.http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?sho...0&#entry147590

And also; Allaah Almighty says in the Qur'an:

"O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear Allah, verily, Allah is The One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful" (Qur'an 49:12)

Hence: Thread Closed.