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View Full Version : israel is attacking a whole city for one zionist criminal soldier!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lamaggad
06-28-2006, 06:16 AM
How is that possible?!?!?! they have killed a hole family in Gaza week ago, and have killed even more innocent women and children after Gaza Massacre..
and now wene Palestinians stood up for them selves and killed three zionist criminal soldiers and arrested one of the soldiers who was actually KILLING innocent people on Gaza border, they are running a huge war on Gaza...

How is that possible?!?!? and why aren't any of those Arab leaders condemn what is going on?!? and why don't those zionist criminal stop there terrorist attacks on our people?!?!

i guess no one should blame Hamas for not recognizing fake israel... why would any one want to have a discrimination country who only think for them selves?!? they don't even have any kind of democracy that they keep claiming...

I'm soo disappointed, may God help those civilians and innocent kids and protect them..
those kids and women are out side there houses since sunrise??! they did not even sleep or have some rest the whole night... that is very sad and disappointing...

i really don't know... are Jews proud and happy from what there government and army are doing?!?! are they even proud for having the whole world looking at them as a discriminating selfish people?!?!

why don't they wake up from the lies that they are forcing them selves to believe in and stand up once for the truth?!?!
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Dahir
06-28-2006, 06:23 AM
It is Simple:

Barbaric, Nationalist-Minded politics and behavior. A foreign policy dated by the Vikings. The Israeli people have always been the ONLY historically Nationalistic people, so it is no wonder they carry out so many selfish attacks, not taking into account the lives of OTHER people. After all, the Torah says that the Jewish people are the "CHOSEN PEOPLE," so Muslims and Palestinians are barely human in their eyes.

It's nothing personal, just an agenda.
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 06:31 AM
[QUOTE]
How is that possible?!?!? and why aren't any of those Arab leaders condemn what is going on?!?
Arab leaders collaborators for Israel and CIA.
look at egypt there are 2500 egyptian soldier on the borders of Gaza and egypt now. what are the doing there?
and why don't those zionist criminal stop there terrorist attacks on our people?!?
killed awhole family last week and today they wanted to complete their crime

we ask Allah to chang our situation into better
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Isaac
06-28-2006, 08:56 AM
i hate to see the evil the zionist will cause if they go in pursue of their evil intention. I pray that this comes to a end and that allah provides a simple solution. I cant believe how they have massed on the border like there ready for all out war. One zionits soldier, kidnapped and the whole zionist army stands up, 100,000 + killed in iraq, and apart from a few righteous individulas, the muslim armies are silenced and looking on. Shame. In some respect this is what you call looking out for your own.
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KAding
06-28-2006, 09:03 AM
It's quite simple. You are continuously calling for war against Israel, and you are getting it. Why are you so suprised?
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Isaac
06-28-2006, 09:08 AM
well then seeing the zionist army does not differentiate between civilian and combatant, then war is how you perceive. The point im trying to make is that if the zionits trerrorist invade rafah then so should the muslim armies that have any respect for tehir deen and fear allah invade israel. If its war like you said, then if the muslim armies still beileve that when they fight they fight for the sake of allah, then this is the time they should unite.
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KAding
06-28-2006, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
well then seeing the zionist army does not differentiate between civilian and combatant, then war is how you perceive. The point im trying to make is that if the zionits trerrorist invade rafah then so should the muslim armies that have any respect for tehir deen and fear allah invade israel. If its war like you said, then if the muslim armies still beileve that when they fight they fight for the sake of allah, then this is the time they should unite.
My apologies, I was responding to the original post of Lamaggad, I didn't make that clear enough :).

I agree that Israel's response is excessive. Although I disagree that they don't differentiate between civilian and combatant.
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Isma'el
06-28-2006, 12:23 PM
:'( Allah humansur al ikwana fi falisteen.

Oh Allah, to whom belongs All Glory and Grandeur, Oh Allah The Omni-Potentent, The Supreme, The Greatest, The Highest We ask you of Your Glory and Power, And victory for the Mujahideen in your cause, Oh Allah remain beside them, and with them, Give them triumph; strenghthen them. Oh Allah unite their vision, Focus the aim of their weaponry, And consolidate their word.

O Allah send upon them (israel) the Storms of 'Aad, And the Cry of the Thamoud, And the Typhoon of the people of Noah, O Allah send upon them that which descends from the skies, And of that which exudes from the lands.:laugh:

ameen ameen ya rabbal alameen
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Lamaggad
06-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Al Jazeera video

Image 1

Image 2

They have destroyed the electricity, 3 bridges so far, and they cut out the water.. so people in Gaza basically are burly living.

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al-fateh
06-28-2006, 02:24 PM
people are more concerened with the world cup now

its the Quarter Finals....

Israel have picked the perfect time for such crimes
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czgibson
06-28-2006, 02:29 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
The Israeli people have always been the ONLY historically Nationalistic people
Um, I think you might need to study world history a bit more...

Peace
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 02:42 PM
Um, I think you might need to study world history a bit more...

Peace
U r reading the false history. U r reading abig lie which is called Israel


what do u call the jewish army when he killed awhole family last week?


Israel Asatanic country built its state on th bones of Palestinian


http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_history.php

http://www.palestineremembered.com/
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Isaac
06-28-2006, 02:52 PM
The west are hypocrites when it comes to zionist terror aka irealy state terror. why is it ok when the kill an innocent family but when a palestinan blows up an army chekpoint thye are seen as terrorist. hyppocrites, hyppocrites and DOUBLE STANDARDS.
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seek.learn
06-28-2006, 03:01 PM
Salaam o alaikum,

As terrible as this is, and indeed we all need to make dua', this ayat comes to mind and terrifies me even more.

"Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls)." [13:11]

We have a long way to go.

May Allah(SWT) help and protect our brothers and sisters, and forgive and guide our ummah. Aameen.

Alaikum Salaam
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czgibson
06-28-2006, 03:34 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
U r reading the false history. U r reading abig lie which is called Israel
Did I say anything about Israel? And how exactly do you know what I am reading?

I'm simply contesting the absurd view that Israeli people are "the ONLY historically Nationalistic people". Many societies throughout history have acted in ways that are nationalistic - they do it all the time - and to suggest otherwise is either ignorant or wilfully perverse.

Peace
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lavikor201
06-28-2006, 04:12 PM
After all, the Torah says that the Jewish people are the "CHOSEN PEOPLE," so Muslims and Palestinians are barely human in their eyes.
Wrong. The Torah states that we are all G-d's children, and the only thing we were chosen to be were to follow his laws very striclty. But hey, the rest of your post is a bunch of filthy lies, so why should your messed up views of my holy scriptures be any different.
Would you like me to rewrite the Quran idiot? Thats what your doing to the Torah, you discrace it by typing it in your post.


The west are hypocrites when it comes to zionist terror aka irealy state terror. why is it ok when the kill an innocent family but when a
palestinan blows up an army chekpoint thye are seen as terrorist. hyppocrites, hyppocrites and DOUBLE STANDARDS.
They don't shoot missles to kill families. The shoot missles to stop Kassam Attacks into schools in Israel. It is the terrorists that hide near families.

Israel Asatanic country built its state on th bones of Palestinian
Wrong the Palestinians built there houses on the bones, and remains of the Jews in Israel living there thousands of years before Islam, when just about every Arab was a pagan before monothiesm.

well then seeing the zionist army does not differentiate between civilian and combatant
I wish I had a buzzer for every time your wrong!

Israel attacks Hamas and terrorists who make there bases near innocent. Hamas just sends a bomber to blow up a Pre-School. Whats the military signifigant of a Day School? Does it say in the Quran to blow up day schools... I know it doesn't so don't even try justifying it.


Arab leaders collaborators for Israel and CIA.
look at egypt there are 2500 egyptian soldier on the borders of Gaza and egypt now. what are the doing there?
Most Arab countries realize who is right.
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 04:18 PM
you r defnding israel

Can I ask u ?

who is the occupier?

palestinian or jews

u blame aperson if he killed azionist!! why did he kill the zionist because they took his land , home , killed his family,massacres every where


iF Aman took ur home by force what is ur reaction?!!
u ask him for piece and u look for another home or u struggle until get it back

what is ur reaction if they killd ur family like Huda on the Beach of Gaza?!!

u will be silent

If u seek justice u have to listen for th news from the two opposing parties
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 04:29 PM
who is the occupier?
We don't need lavikor to awnser this one...

Palestinians occupy the Holy Land which hard evidence states the Jews lived there thousands of years before Islam.

u blame aperson if he killed azionist!! why did he kill the zionist because they took his land , home , killed his family,massacres every where
Palestinians were shooting rockets into israel hitting schools and homes of innocent way before the beach blast and others.

Plus, lavikor has class and actually sais he doesn't agree a lot with the Israeli goverment. I on the other hand believe India should fight militants in Kashmir the way Israel does it. They kill Hindu innocent, we fight back, evil lives on the indulgences of man.

If u seek justice u have to listen for th news from the two opposing parties
If you did not know or read another of lavikors posts than you would know he opposes all violence supports and Palestinian state, and gives a lot of money to charities which aid the Palestinians with food and water.
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muslim_friend
06-28-2006, 04:36 PM
Holy Land or no holy land... chosen people or not.. may Allah curse the Zionists and send them to the lowest pits of the fire for what they have done..

I swear one day, there will be justice.. inshaAllah.
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 04:40 PM
Holy Land or no holy land... chosen people or not.. may Allah curse the Zionists and send them to the lowest pits of the fire for what they have done..
Most religions pray for peace.... Most people pray for peace...

You pray for destruction and death. I know all I need to know about you and your beliefs.
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muslim_friend
06-28-2006, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Palestinians occupy the Holy Land which hard evidence states the Jews lived there thousands of years before Islam.
So what? So what? The Jews weren't the first occupants of the land. look at America. America was owned by the red Indians, and when the europeans arrived on the mayflower, they massacred all of them.

BTW, jews and muslims DID live in peace in jerusalem, until greed took over. When muslims ruled that land, not a church or temple was ordered to be destroyed..
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muslim_friend
06-28-2006, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Most religions pray for peace.... Most people pray for peace...

You pray for destruction and death. I know all I need to know about you and your beliefs.
Don't get me wrong please. i pray for peace in this life. I pray for Justice in the next.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-28-2006, 04:50 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim_friend
BTW, jews and muslims DID live in peace in jerusalem, until greed took over. When muslims ruled that land, not a church or temple was ordered to be destroyed..
That's true.

From Dr. Habib Siddiqui:
Scores of Jewish scholars and historians can be cited, including Ben-Sasson[27] and Abba Eban[28] to prove him unreliable, hostile and lying.

Let me quote from the scholarly work, A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson (Harvard University Press, 1976), an Israeli historian:
"The height of magnificence and luxury was reached by the wealthy Jews in the lands of Islam, particularly in Moslem Spain. We know that the court bankers of Baghdad in the tenth century kept open house for numerous guests and for the poor. Similarly, the ceremonies of the Jewish leaders in Babylonia [Iraq] and the patronage of the leading Jews in Moslem Spain, indicate conditions of ease and plenty.

"The attitude toward these non-Moslems in the Islamic territories was shaped in principle in accordance with the concept of dhimma, meaning protection granted to them by agreement or treaty… In return, their lives and property were protected and, in accordance with the general attitude of Islam to infidels, they were assured liberty of faith and worship. They were also permitted to organize themselves as they wished, and the Jews fully availed themselves of that permission.

"From the Jewish viewpoint, this conglomerate of Moslem attitudes to infidels was easier to live with than the one that had been established by Christianity, particularly in the Byzantine Empire. As we have noted above, for hundreds of years the overwhelming majority of Jews lived in the Islamic territories. Although it is possible to perceive some Christian impact on the Moslem attitude towards non-believers and even towards the Christians themselves, the moderation with which the Moslems applied this influence proved to be of great importance to the majority of Jewry over a long period. Unlike the masses of Christians and pagans who joined the Moslems over the first half century or so, the overwhelming majority of the Jews under Moslem rule held firmly to their own faith."[29]
As to the settlement and economic activity in the 16th and 17th centuries and the establishment of the Sephardic Diaspora in the Ottoman Empire, the above book states:
"A considerable stream of exiles from Spain overflowed into the Ottoman Empire. Once the latter had annexed Erez Yisrael, it became a lodestone for Marranos who wished to repent and return to their former faith…. The sultan at the time of the expulsion, Bayezid, welcomed the refugees fleeing from the fanatical Christians. As recorded by a Jewish contemporary ‘the Sultan sent men ahead, and spread the word through his kingdom in writing as well, declaring that none of his officers in any of his cities dare to drive the Jews out or expel them, but all of them were to welcome the Jews cordially.’ It can be assumed that this imperial protection and the order granting right of domicile were issued through the influence of the leaders of the long-established Jewish community in the Ottoman Empire… Success was not restricted exclusively to medical and court circles. It seems that in the Ottoman Empire it was felt that the absorption of the exiles from the West provided social, cultural and even military advantages… The exiles gradually dispersed throughout the main cities of the Empire. Many synagogues were to be found in Constantinople during the sixteenth century. In this city they settled in quarters where Jews had not formerly resided. Salonika also became one of their main centres, and similarly Adrianople and Smyrna (Izmir). The exiles also established themselves in smaller cities. Expulsions from southern Italy helped to diversify the Jewish community and increase the various congregations in the Empire."[30]
What is clear is that historically the relationship between Jews and Muslims living under Muslim Sultans was rather amicable and, that even in places like Palestine, Muslim people did not have any problem with Jews living there. The relationship soured only after the Balfour Declaration (1917) when the British allowed European Jews to colonize Palestine.[31]
_______
[27] A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson.
[28] Heritage: Civilization and the Jews by Abba Eban.
[29] For a brief review of the book, see: http://www.muhajabah.com/jewsofislam.htm
[30] op. cit., pp. 631-3
[31] See this author’s article: The Case of Jerusalem – for a detailed treatment of the holy city.
:w:
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 04:53 PM
Israeli-Muslims are given full rights in Israel to pray and worship whoever they want. There are Muslims in Israel who serve in the Knesset(Israel's congress) and many Muslims chose to fight for Israel.
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HeiGou
06-28-2006, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
The west are hypocrites when it comes to zionist terror aka irealy state terror. why is it ok when the kill an innocent family but when a palestinan blows up an army chekpoint thye are seen as terrorist. hyppocrites, hyppocrites and DOUBLE STANDARDS.
That is not true. The Western legal and moral tradition does not allow any equating of States with individuals. States can do far more than individuals can. War is by definition a monopoly of the State - only a legitimate State can wage a Just War. No individual or sub-state group can. Ever. So the West is very consistent, well mostly consistent: Israel, as a State, has the right and duty to maintain law and order. Private citizen, under NO circumstances, may do the same. That is terrorism. The West does not complain when the Israeli Army kills people, or at least does not call it terrorism. Nor do they when the Iranian Army kills people.
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 05:12 PM
Palestinians occupy the Holy Land which hard evidence states the Jews lived there thousands of years before Islam.

what is the source of ur information?!!!

Israel gatherd most of the jews in the world means that israel doesnt have a right in Palestine

u can see Belfore promise in 1914




On the 2nd of November of 1917 the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Lord Rothschild Belfort to read this book :

" The Ministry of Foreign Affairs

2 November 1917 m

Dear Lord "Rochld"

I am very pleased to inform you on behalf of the government of His Majesty the following statement, which is sympathetic to the aspirations of the Jews and Zionism. It was presented to and approved by the ministry :

"The government of His Majesty consider favourably to the establishment of a national homeland of the Jewish people in Palestine. It will do its utmost to facilitate the achievement of this end, to be understood clearly that it will not yield an action would undermine the civil and religious rights enjoyed by non-Jewish communities living in Palestine, No rights or political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries.

I would be grateful if you union bodies note of the Zionist state. "

Faithful

Arthur Belfort
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 05:16 PM
You must be kidding. Jews were living in Israel way before Islam. The Historical documents of the Romans, Greeks, Egyptions, Babylonians ect... all prove that the Jews were in the Holy Land. This was at a time when there was no Islam. It is compltley recorded by history that the Jews were living in Israel thousands of years before Islam.
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Fishman
06-28-2006, 05:17 PM
:sl:
If Jews are allowed a state in their ancestral and spiritual homeland, what about the native Americans?
:w:
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
If Jews are allowed a state in their ancestral and spiritual homeland, what about the native Americans?
:w:
The Native Americans should do what the Jews did and take back there homeland. It is there rightful land just like its the Jews rightful land.

Check out the millions of tablets and reports about the Jews living in the Holy Land by the Greeks, Egyptions, Romans, and Babylon. There is no mention of 'Palestinians'.... there were nothing but Jews in the Holy Land before Islam came.
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limitless
06-28-2006, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
You must be kidding. Jews were living in Israel way before Islam. The Historical documents of the Romans, Greeks, Egyptions, Babylonians ect... all prove that the Jews were in the Holy Land. This was at a time when there was no Islam. It is compltley recorded by history that the Jews were living in Israel thousands of years before Islam.
:sl:

I believe that Jews were like muslims today, before any of this happened. They worshiped one God, Allah and etc, I am not sure about much details but as to my knowledge they were until a certain point they just didn't and then islam was born. So it is like islam before islam was born. Can anyone clearify this (muslim sister or brother only). Hence, in sense you are wrong . My Allah help those palestine people, give them strength to bare this much pain and help them, ameen.



:w:
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limitless
06-28-2006, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
The Native Americans should do what the Jews did and take back there homeland. It is there rightful land just like its the Jews rightful land.

Check out the millions of tablets and reports about the Jews living in the Holy Land by the Greeks, Egyptions, Romans, and Babylon. There is no mention of 'Palestinians'.... there were nothing but Jews in the Holy Land before Islam came.
:sl:

You need to relax, by reading your posts, you are flaming out as if you dislike islam. Calm down and think before you post. Don't let the anger get to you.

:w:
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 05:30 PM
I believe that Jews were like muslims today, before any of this happened. They worshiped one God, Allah and etc, I am not sure about much details but as to my knowledge they were until a certain point they just didn't and then islam was born. So it is like islam before islam was born. Can anyone clearify this (muslim sister or brother only). Hence, in sense you are wrong . My Allah help those palestine people, give them strength to bare this much pain and help them, ameen.

The Jews before Islam was born worshiped one God, and held the same traditions they hold today. Including the tradition that the Torah is the holiest of scriptrues and no prophet of God would ever say otherwise. Islam was born in Saudi Arabia not the Holy Land, and Islam does not regard the Torah as holy.

You need to relax, by reading your posts, you are flaming out as if you dislike islam. Calm down and think before you post. Don't let the anger get to you
Look at the posts that I respond to like Lammagad. I match her intensity with intensity. lol. I don't hate Islam. I hate extremism.
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim_friend
So what? So what? The Jews weren't the first occupants of the land. look at America. America was owned by the red Indians, and when the europeans arrived on the mayflower, they massacred all of them.

BTW, jews and muslims DID live in peace in jerusalem, until greed took over. When muslims ruled that land, not a church or temple was ordered to be destroyed..
You do realize that it wasn't all onesided in America right? That a lot of tribes ran raiding parties against the white mean mutilating tons of women and children. That in almost every war the US has fought on it's continent the Idians sided against the Americans from the French and Indian war(actually against the British) to the Mexican American war.
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
what is the source of ur information?!!!

Israel gatherd most of the jews in the world means that israel doesnt have a right in Palestine

u can see Belfore promise in 1914




On the 2nd of November of 1917 the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Lord Rothschild Belfort to read this book :

" The Ministry of Foreign Affairs

2 November 1917 m

Dear Lord "Rochld"

I am very pleased to inform you on behalf of the government of His Majesty the following statement, which is sympathetic to the aspirations of the Jews and Zionism. It was presented to and approved by the ministry :

"The government of His Majesty consider favourably to the establishment of a national homeland of the Jewish people in Palestine. It will do its utmost to facilitate the achievement of this end, to be understood clearly that it will not yield an action would undermine the civil and religious rights enjoyed by non-Jewish communities living in Palestine, No rights or political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries.

I would be grateful if you union bodies note of the Zionist state. "

Faithful

Arthur Belfort
You gotta go back a little farther than that.

Around 1025 BC, the children of the patriarch Jacob (Israel) united to form the Kingdom of Israel. Saul was the first King of Israel. He unified the tribes under a single Israelite authority, but, according to the first book of Samuel, due to his disobedience to God, he ruled for only two years, although some manuscripts read forty-two years (cf. the New Testament, which gives him a reign of forty years). The original figure, based on the number of battles ascribed to him, was probably twenty-two years, and has become corrupt (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2006).

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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
If Jews are allowed a state in their ancestral and spiritual homeland, what about the native Americans?
:w:
Isn't that the Pal arguement? If Israel can't have the Holy Land why should the Pals be able to?
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 06:22 PM
The Historical documents of the Romans, Greeks
where are the documents?!!!! u r kidding

the claim of zionism

afew jews were lived in palestine during Othoman Age u can see the documents

Palestine is the cradle for the three great monotheistic religions Islam ,Christianity, and Judiasm

so its a cradle but the number of the jews at that time was very few
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HeiGou
06-28-2006, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
Palestine is the cradle for the three great monotheistic religions Islam ,Christianity, and Judiasm

so its a cradle but the number of the jews at that time was very few
Strictly speaking it was the cradle for two great monotheistic religions: Judaism and Christianity. Islam had its cradle down near Mecca.
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Panatella
06-28-2006, 06:26 PM
The people of Israel were there long before islam existed.
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Nablus
06-28-2006, 06:26 PM
Around 1025 BC, the children of the patriarch Jacob (Israel) united to form the Kingdom of Israel. Saul was the first King of Israel. He unified the tribes under a single Israelite authority, but, according to the first book of Samuel, due to his disobedience to God, he ruled for only two years, although some manuscripts read forty-two years (cf. the New Testament, which gives him a reign of forty years). The original figure, based on the number of battles ascribed to him, was probably twenty-two years, and has become corrupt (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2006).

what about Belfor promised? was it alie


u can return to the british documents in 1917
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Strictly speaking it was the cradle for two great monotheistic religions: Judaism and Christianity. Islam had its cradle down near Mecca.
He must have missed my post were I showed that the Kingdom of Israel goes back to 1052 BC.
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Fishman
06-28-2006, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
where are the documents?!!!! u r kidding

the claim of zionism

afew jews were lived in palestine during Othoman Age u can see the documents

Palestine is the cradle for the three great monotheistic religions Islam ,Christianity, and Judiasm

so its a cradle but the number of the jews at that time was very few
:sl:
I smell a conspiracy theory!

Of course there were Jews in Israel before the Muslims arrived! Who do you think built the Jewish Temple?

Geronimo, my argument is: Why do Jews get to have a state in their homeland when other displaced peoples (the Celts, the Gypsies, the Spanish Muslims, the Native Americans) don't?
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Panatella
06-28-2006, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Geronimo, my argument is: Why do Jews get to have a state in their homeland when other displaced peoples (the Celts, the Gypsies, the Spanish Muslims, the Native Americans) don't?
If I can answer here please. Possession. Because they have it now. You know the old saying, "possession is nine tenths of the law".
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
what about Belfor promised? was it alie


u can return to the british documents in 1917
What comes first 1052 BC or 1917? How about the meticulous records the Romans kept of the JEWISH REBELLION and the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 BC?

The Great Jewish Revolt in 66-73 resulted in the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (70) and the sacking of the entire city by the Roman army led by Titus Flavius and the estimated death toll of 600,000 to 1,300,000 Jews
Read about Josephus Flavius
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lavikor201
06-28-2006, 06:32 PM
where are the documents?!!!! u r kidding
No kidding. Jews were living under Roman Law, and records from Egypt, Babylon, Rome, and Greece all suport this claim, that the Jews were living in Israel way before Islam was created.

The fact that Medina had a lot of Jews... Does Medina really belong to the Jews then? In a way yes... but Mecca, and Medina are your holy sites. Jerusalem is not a holy Islamic site. Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Quran. While Islam was created Jews were still living in the Holy Land. Than most Jews were expelled, and Jewish land was taken.

A little known fact is that Mizrahi Jews (Jews who never were exiled from israel, i am one.) who can trace there history back to the Holy land before islam number over a million in Israel.

Geronimo, my argument is: Why do Jews get to have a state in their homeland when other displaced peoples (the Celts, the Gypsies, the Spanish Muslims, the Native Americans) don't?
I guess they deserve a land. Muslims though certainly have there fair share amount of homelands compared to the Jews...

Look at a map of the Middle East.
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I smell a conspiracy theory!

Of course there were Jews in Israel before the Muslims arrived! Who do you think built the Jewish Temple?

Geronimo, my argument is: Why do Jews get to have a state in their homeland when other displaced peoples (the Celts, the Gypsies, the Spanish Muslims, the Native Americans) don't?
Muslims decietfully forced themselves on the Spanish. The Spanish asked for help from them and they took over. That's besides the point. That argument that others people that are displced works against the Pals too don't it?
Reply

Nablus
06-28-2006, 06:45 PM
the jews lived in egypt , iraq , in all Arab countries so they have the right

to build their state also in these countries as they claim


the jews temple its alie

there is no temple under Al-Aqsa mosque
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
the jews lived in egypt , iraq , in all Arab countries so they have the right

to build their state also in these countries as they claim


the jews temple its alie

there is no temple under Al-Aqsa mosque
Wow! Claiming that the meticulous records of countless civilizations, the archeological findings and many other things are complete lies. I guess that is the way to go when you have absolutley no fact on your side.

format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
You gotta go back a little farther than that.

Around 1025 BC, the children of the patriarch Jacob (Israel) united to form the Kingdom of Israel. Saul was the first King of Israel. He unified the tribes under a single Israelite authority, but, according to the first book of Samuel, due to his disobedience to God, he ruled for only two years, although some manuscripts read forty-two years (cf. the New Testament, which gives him a reign of forty years). The original figure, based on the number of battles ascribed to him, was probably twenty-two years, and has become corrupt (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2006).

Very good post.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Strictly speaking it was the cradle for two great monotheistic religions: Judaism and Christianity. Islam had its cradle down near Mecca.
Great point. Islam has an Islamic State in there homeland. The Jews definitly deserve it in theres.

format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
What comes first 1052 BC or 1917? How about the meticulous records the Romans kept of the JEWISH REBELLION and the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 BC?



Read about Josephus Flavius
Great post. The records don't lie.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I smell a conspiracy theory!

Of course there were Jews in Israel before the Muslims arrived! Who do you think built the Jewish Temple?

Geronimo, my argument is: Why do Jews get to have a state in their homeland when other displaced peoples (the Celts, the Gypsies, the Spanish Muslims, the Native Americans) don't?
Maybe they should. I don't know. But the Muslims in Spain were really from Africa. The berbers invaded El-Cids kingdom I believe you knwo that right?
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Panatella
06-28-2006, 06:52 PM
Josephus Flavius was alive and recorded the accounts in his life in the first century. Clearly the jewish people lived in Isreal at this time, and the recordings of the Romans match these writings. Muslims claim that the land that is now Israel was in the hands of muslims long before the jews came along. But how can this be if islam was not founded until the seventh century 600 years after Flavius was alive?
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snakelegs
06-28-2006, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Um, I think you might need to study world history a bit more...

Peace
understatement!
Reply

abdmez
06-28-2006, 07:42 PM
Many people on this board just reject history that does not help there political desires.
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Fishman
06-28-2006, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Josephus Flavius was alive and recorded the accounts in his life in the first century. Clearly the jewish people lived in Isreal at this time, and the recordings of the Romans match these writings. Muslims claim that the land that is now Israel was in the hands of muslims long before the jews came along. But how can this be if islam was not founded until the seventh century 600 years after Flavius was alive?
:sl:
According the Quran and Hadith, the Israelites were orginally Muslims. The religion was then corrupted into Judaism.

The Muslims took Spain from the Visgoths. The Visgoths didn't take Spain back, some other Europeans did.
:w:
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Many people on this board just reject history that does not help there political desires.
Very true.

According the Quran and Hadith, the Israelites were orginally Muslims. The religion was then corrupted into Judaism.
Since the practices of Judaism and there worship of the Torah go back way before Islam. And since the Torah which they regarded as so holy said that no prophet would change Judaism. And since Islam does not follow the Torahs teachings. It is obvious, that these Torah observant people who called themselves 'Jews' were definitly not Muslims.
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
According the Quran and Hadith, the Israelites were orginally Muslims. The religion was then corrupted into Judaism.

The Muslims took Spain from the Visgoths. The Visgoths didn't take Spain back, some other Europeans did.
:w:
And accorrding to the Torah the Israelites were always Jews so what's the difference? And don't say becuase the Quran is the true book becuase at least the Jews have the dead sea scrolls to back them up.
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Fishman
06-28-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
And accorrding to the Torah the Israelites were always Jews so what's the difference? And don't say becuase the Quran is the true book becuase at least the Jews have the dead sea scrolls to back them up.
:sl:
The dead sea scrolls are from around the time of Jesus (pbuh). By then the torah had already become very corupt.
:w:
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 07:53 PM
What proof do you have to prove they were corrupted? Granted their were people in high power that had been corrupted but the Torah was something so sacred that no one dare fool with. It was something they took very serious along with the arc of the covenant.
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SirZubair
06-28-2006, 07:54 PM
Do these Israel/Palestine threads ever go anywhere?

No?

Well,...maybe it is time to stop creating them?
:rollseyes
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Do these Israel/Palestine threads ever go anywhere?

No?

Well,...maybe it is time to stop creating them?
:rollseyes
It's normally muslims that start them. Us non muslims just refuse to let them go unchecked.
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Fishman
06-28-2006, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
What proof do you have to prove they were corrupted? Granted their were people in high power that had been corrupted but the Torah was something so sacred that no one dare fool with. It was something they took very serious along with the arc of the covenant.
:sl:
Plenty of powerful people misuse religion. I saw a Muslim translating the Quran in a deceptive manner once, and Henry the IIIV started the Church of England because he wanted a divorce.

Good point SirZubair, I'll go now.
:w:
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lavikor201
06-28-2006, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The dead sea scrolls are from around the time of Jesus (pbuh). By then the torah had already become very corupt.
:w:
So the Quran bases its legitimacy by claiming other holy scriptures are corrupt... something I did not know. What authority is the Quran to say the Torah is corrupt?

Was Islam even around by the time of Jesus?

Do you know of any archeological inscription dated within 100 years of Muhammad's death where he is called a prophet? If so, please name it.

I'm out I guess.
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SirZubair
06-28-2006, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
It's normally muslims that start them. Us non muslims just refuse to let them go unchecked.
I have noticed.

On their behalf,i apoligise to each and every non-muslim on this forum that has been offended by ANY article posted by a muslim.

And as for those who are about to call me an apoligist,.go ahead.

I would rather be an apoligist than behave like a 5 year old child who fights over a crayon.

wa'salaam.
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Woodrow
06-28-2006, 08:02 PM
One of the Most difficult concepts to get across, is the concept that True Jews were/are Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who submits to the Will of God(swt) so to say that the Jews were not Muslim is to say they did/do not submit to the will of God(swt)

There always were Muslims since the creation of the first being capable of submitting to the Will of God(swt).

If the Jews had kept and followed the Truth Judaism would be the true Muslims of today. However, something was lost so the Truth had to be rerevealed through I'sa and the True Christians were the Muslims. But, it was lost again. It was finaly re-revealed again in the Glorious Qur'an and so Today the Muslims are those who follow the Qur'an. The same Truth as what was first revealed to Adam and all the Prophets.
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Vishnu
06-28-2006, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
One of the Most difficult concepts to get across, is the concept that True Jews were/are Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who submits to the Will of God(swt) so to say that the Jews were not Muslim is to say they did/do not submit to the will of God(swt)

There always were Muslims since the creation of the first being capable of submitting to the Will of God(swt).

If the Jews had kept and followed the Truth Judaism would be the true Muslims of today. However, something was lost so the Truth had to be rerevealed through I'sa and the True Christians were the Muslims. But, it was lost again. It was finaly re-revealed again in the Glorious Qur'an and so Today the Muslims are those who follow the Qur'an. The same Truth as what was first revealed to Adam and all the Prophets.
That is funny because since the Torah commands Jews never to believe a prophet who wants to change Judaism, and they worshiped the Torah thousands of years before Islam and called themselves 'Jews' I would ahve to say that Jews are not Muslims.

Jews believed and always believed that the Torah was binding law no matter what! The fact that Islam does not believe this makes it that they are not Jews who lived in the Holy Land. Islam is not Judaism. Islam started in Saudi Arabia, and most of the descendants of Islam from the Middle East today trace there roots to pagan worshiping tribes in Arabia.

True Jews would have never broken the law of the Torah because in the Torah it sais that God will never make them no longer binding. Therefore a true Jew who followed the Torah is a Jew that never became a Muslim or Christian.
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Woodrow
06-28-2006, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
I have noticed.

On their behalf,i apoligise to each and every non-muslim on this forum that has been offended by ANY article posted by a muslim.

And as for those who are about to call me an apoligist,.go ahead.

I would rather be an apoligist than behave like a 5 year old child who fights over a crayon.

wa'salaam.
I just noticed this post. SirZubair is correct. We are acting like 5 year old children. We can all stand up for our beliefs. But, defending our beliefs does not need to be a verbal agressive attact upon another person's beliefs.
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lavikor201
06-28-2006, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I just noticed this post. SirZubair is correct. We are acting like 5 year old children. We can all stand up for our beliefs. But, defending our beliefs does not need to be a verbal agressive attact upon another person's beliefs.
Very True.

These thread usually get ugly. lol.
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Geronimo
06-28-2006, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
One of the Most difficult concepts to get across, is the concept that True Jews were/are Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who submits to the Will of God(swt) so to say that the Jews were not Muslim is to say they did/do not submit to the will of God(swt)

There always were Muslims since the creation of the first being capable of submitting to the Will of God(swt).

If the Jews had kept and followed the Truth Judaism would be the true Muslims of today. However, something was lost so the Truth had to be rerevealed through I'sa and the True Christians were the Muslims. But, it was lost again. It was finaly re-revealed again in the Glorious Qur'an and so Today the Muslims are those who follow the Qur'an. The same Truth as what was first revealed to Adam and all the Prophets.
What proof do you have of this? I can easily say that my bible say Jesus was the son of God and salvation only comes through him so the others are wrong. I can say that Catholics are wrong for idolizing Mary. I can say my Torah say Christians are
wrong and Jesus was a false prophet. Just becuase I say that don't mean it was right. Show me any mention of Islam before Mohammed came on the scene.
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czgibson
06-28-2006, 08:15 PM
Greetings,

I find this idea that Muslims have existed since the year dot to be one of the strangest ideas of Islam. It seems to derive from two distinct meanings of the word. First, there is 'Islam', and 'Muslim', in the literal sense: 'submission to god' and 'one who submits to god'. I don't have any difficulty in accepting that, on one view of the world, people have submitted to god since before the time of Muhammad (pbuh).

Then there is the second meaning, which most people more quickly associate with the word: a Muslim is a follower of the world religion of Islam; one whose holy book is the Qur'an, and who follows the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). By definition, this Islam can only exist after the birth of Muhammad (pbuh). It is the confusion between these two meanings that makes the idea seem strange to people.

Peace
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lavikor201
06-28-2006, 08:20 PM
I would also like to know if anyone who said the Torah is corrupt could awnser this for me:

Do you know of any archeological inscription dated within 100 years of Muhammad's death where he is called a prophet? If so, please name it.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-28-2006, 08:29 PM
:sl:
Islam was the message brought by all the Prophets and Messengers, the last of whom is Muhammad pbuh. So in the time of Prophet Musa, the religion was based on following the revelations sent to him, likewise with the time of Prophet 'Iesa. This is now the case with Prophet Muhammad. Peace be upon them all,
Do you know of any archeological inscription dated within 100 years of Muhammad's death where he is called a prophet? If so, please name it.
Absolutely! Here is one:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/His...ons/abasa.html

Many others here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/His.../Inscriptions/

Regards
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Woodrow
06-28-2006, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
That is funny because since the Torah commands Jews never to believe a prophet who wants to change Judaism, and they worshiped the Torah thousands of years before Islam and called themselves 'Jews' I would ahve to say that Jews are not Muslims.

Jews believed and always believed that the Torah was binding law no matter what! The fact that Islam does not believe this makes it that they are not Jews who lived in the Holy Land. Islam is not Judaism. Islam started in Saudi Arabia, and most of the descendants of Islam from the Middle East today trace there roots to pagan worshiping tribes in Arabia.

True Jews would have never broken the law of the Torah because in the Torah it sais that God will never make them no longer binding. Therefore a true Jew who followed the Torah is a Jew that never became a Muslim or Christian.
"That is funny because since the Torah commands Jews never to believe a prophet who wants to change Judaism, and they worshiped the Torah thousands of years before Islam and called themselves 'Jews' I would ahve to say that Jews are not Muslims."

I believe the Tauret (Torah) was the original Truth revealed to Us and that the Jews were the Chosen people and that the Jews did submit to the will of God(swt) and that a person who submits to the will of God(swt) is Muslim.

"Jews believed and always believed that the Torah was binding law no matter what! The fact that Islam does not believe this makes it that they are not Jews who lived in the Holy Land. Islam is not Judaism. Islam started in Saudi Arabia, and most of the descendants of Islam from the Middle East today trace there roots to pagan worshiping tribes in Arabia."

Muslims also believe the original Torah was the binding law of God(swt) and that God(swt) would not change it. But, I believe the Torah no longer exists fully as it was originaly revealed. I also believe Islam did not start in Saudi Arabia, it is simply the location of the final Prophet(pbuh) to whom the truth was revealed to for the final time. It is not a new revelation nor a change of what was originaly sent through all the Prophets(Peace be Upon Them)

True Jews would have never broken the law of the Torah because in the Torah it sais that God will never make them no longer binding. Therefore a true Jew who followed the Torah is a Jew that never became a Muslim or Christian.

I agree with that except for the last sentence. The Jews would not have had to BECOME Muslim, because they were Muslim.
Reply

lavikor201
06-28-2006, 08:43 PM
I'm sorry to say that Jews are not Muslims.

Jews follow the Torah
Muslims follow the Quran

Jews followed the Torah in Israel before Muhammad.
Islam began in Saudi Arabia and the creation of the Quran.

The fact that Islam believes that the Quran is the word of G-d completley contradicts Judaism and all of its teachings before Muhammad. Jews were not Muslims because Jews followed the Torah. Jews were not Muslims because the Torah sais that G-d will never allow the Torah's laws to be broken.

Christianity, and Islam do not follow the laws of the Torah. Therefore, they are not Jews.

I agree with that except for the last sentence. The Jews would not have had to BECOME Muslim, because they were Muslim.
To be Muslim you have to accept the Quran as the word of G-d. The Quran is not the word of G-d. Jews do not accept it. Therefore Jews 'submited to G-d' but the teachings Islam teaches are not Jewish. Were never Jewish, and will never be Jewish teachings.
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Muslimaatan
06-29-2006, 12:34 AM
i was soo pissed off wen i heard that on the news..ya Allah..i wish i can do somethin bout it..but all i got is dua..Alhamdulilah!
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Lamaggad
06-29-2006, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
The Quran is not the word of G-d. Jews do not accept it.
how did you know it's not the word of God?! have you ever read it DEEPLY from your heart?!?! have you ever understood it??!?!? no.. you didn't... so you basically can't say such thing unless you PROVE IT to us... which you basically CAN'T.

Muslims never said that Torah and the bible are not words of God, Torah and Bible are mentioned in Qur'an were it's confirmed that three books are words of God BUT Bible and Torah lost there original revelation by disbelievers.

you have asked a question and brother ansar al-adl have replyed and PROVED YOU WRONG.. why didn't you comment about it?!?

any way... here is SOME verses were God is talking about Torah and Bible.. and there is more if you want...


نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنْزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنْجِيلَ

3-3:سورة ال عمران
[3-1] It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) to you (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ فَلَا تَخْشَوُا النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا بِآيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ

سورة المائدة
[5-44]
[5-44] Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) (to Mûsâ (Moses)) therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh's Will, judged for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests (too judged for the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets), for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws).
وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ أَقَامُوا التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنْجِيلَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لَأَكَلُوا مِنْ فَوْقِهِمْ وَمِنْ تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِهِمْ مِنْهُمْ أُمَّةٌ مُقْتَصِدَةٌ وَكَثِيرٌ مِنْهُمْ سَاءَ مَا يَعْمَلُونَ

سورة المائدة
[5-66]
[5-66] And if only they had acted according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'ân), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e. they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) like 'Abdullâh bin Salâm (may Allah be pleased with him)) but many of them do evil deeds.
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Vishnu
06-29-2006, 02:25 AM
how did you know it's not the word of God?! have you ever read it DEEPLY from your heart?!?! have you ever understood it??!?!? no.. you didn't... so you basically can't say such thing unless you PROVE IT to us... which you basically CAN'T.

Muslims never said that Torah and the bible are not words of God, Torah and Bible are mentioned in Qur'an were it's confirmed that three books are words of God BUT Bible and Torah lost there original revelation by disbelievers.

you have asked a question and brother ansar al-quds have replyed and PROVED YOU WRONG.. why didn't you comment about it?!?

any way... here is the SOME verses were God is talking about Torah and Bible.. and there is more if you want...
According to his beliefs the Torah is the only word of God, and that is it. He is right, according to Jewish Law, the Quran is of no signifigance.

Sometimes we all have to accept that we just don't believe the same thing.
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SirZubair
06-29-2006, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Sometimes we all have to accept that we just don't believe the same thing.
Exactly.

Learn to agree to disagree.
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Panatella
06-29-2006, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Exactly.

Learn to agree to disagree.
Yes, exactly. It seems a small group of us have found some common ground.
Live, and let live. And all that kind of good stuff.
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Joe98
06-29-2006, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
Re: israel is attacking a whole city.....

Allah is testing you

Allah knows best
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AvarAllahNoor
06-29-2006, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
The Native Americans should do what the Jews did and take back there homeland. It is there rightful land just like its the Jews rightful land.
I agree with this, if somebody takes what belongs to you, it's is your right to retrieve it!

Although i'm not too sure of how many Native Americans are left.
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Woodrow
06-29-2006, 08:14 AM
I can not think of a single culture in existance today, that did not gain it's land without conquering and eliminating the previous inhabitants. I'm not saying that is right, just saying it as a historical fact.

Now that every bit of arable land has been occupied, any expansion we see by any nation is going to be at the expense of another nation. We can no longer think of peacefull coexistance as a luxury, it is now a necessity.

Perhaps we will never all agree on the same things, but all disagreements have to be handled in peace. I believe the world has become too small for warfare to be an effective means of settling disputes. Each nation is now dependent on other nations for survival. It is virtualy impossible for any people to survive without the cooperation of their neighbors.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-29-2006, 08:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can not think of a single culture in existance today, that did not gain it's land without conquering and eliminating the previous inhabitants. I'm not saying that is right, just saying it as a historical fact.

Now that every bit of arable land has been occupied, any expansion we see by any nation is going to be at the expense of another nation. We can no longer think of peacefull coexistance as a luxury, it is now a necessity.

Perhaps we will never all agree on the same things, but all disagreements have to be handled in peace. I believe the world has become too small for warfare to be an effective means of settling disputes. Each nation is now dependent on other nations for survival. It is virtualy impossible for any people to survive without the cooperation of their neighbors.
If you look at Zimbabwe (sp) mugabe is taking land off the white people and giving it back to the black, is that right or wrong? Don't forget it belonged to the blacks.
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Nablus
06-29-2006, 02:37 PM
Allah is testing you

Allah knows best
sure


we have to be patient to return our rights from the rappers
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muslim_friend
06-29-2006, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Allah is testing you

Allah knows best
Lol. We know that..
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czgibson
06-29-2006, 05:13 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
we have to be patient to return our rights from the rappers
Wow - there are rappers involved?

Peace
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Wow - there are rappers involved?

Peace
Yeah Ice cube and 50 cent.
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Trumble
06-29-2006, 05:28 PM
He isn't a "zionist criminal soldier", he's a kid who got conscripted. The Israelis have always made quite clear they will not abandon their own in such circumstances.

While, as usual I have great sympathy for those who get caught up in the mess, I have none for the militants. They knew this would be the response, and engineered it. It is as much their reponsibility as the Israelis.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
How is that possible?!?!?! they have killed a hole family in Gaza week ago, and have killed even more innocent women and children after Gaza Massacre..
and now wene Palestinians stood up for them selves and killed three zionist criminal soldiers and arrested one of the soldiers who was actually KILLING innocent people on Gaza border, they are running a huge war on Gaza...

How is that possible?!
You act as if this surprizes you? Knowing their history as intimately as I do... none of this comes as a surprize to me. They're playing their games (eg: they can attack anyone they wish without being called terrorists, but if anyone attacks them, they call them terrorists). They'll pit everyone against each other because all that confusion makes good cover, but I'm ignoring all that pageantry... keeping my light focused on one small detail. The loose brick in their foundation. A point in history that can potentially bring them back down to Earth like a house of cards. No swords, no suicides, no bag of tricks.

Ninth Scribe
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 07:27 PM
Maybe if they stopped shooting Kassam Rockets into schools in Israel than there would be no retaliations in Gaza.

Ever think of that... of course not... To you no Muslim is ever guilty... but if an Israeli tries to fight back he is a "terrorist"

Pathetic distorted view of the world, brought to you by Al-Jazeera.
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abdmez
06-29-2006, 07:30 PM
Both sides suck and abuse way to much human rights and carelessly attack civillian areas.
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afriend
06-29-2006, 07:32 PM
Even if there is a cease fire, there will always be a 'need' for a retalliation, becuase 'something' is going on........

Why not burn the weapons and tanks on both sides, and just blow up all the stupid wartime child play, it's just childish.........
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abdmez
06-29-2006, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Even if there is a cease fire, there will always be a 'need' for a retalliation, becuase 'something' is going on........

Why not burn the weapons and tanks on both sides, and just blow up all the stupid wartime child play, it's just childish.........
Great post.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Maybe if they stopped shooting Kassam Rockets into schools in Israel than there would be no retaliations in Gaza.

Ever think of that... of course not... To you no Muslim is ever guilty... but if an Israeli tries to fight back he is a "terrorist"
Excuse me, but.... Israel?

And just what are the Muslims guilty of? Fighting Israel? No! You fought Israel! You wiped it off the face of the map and destroyed it's seed... and without them you will never BE Israel! At least when Ezra returned, he knew who he was and where he came from. He knew where the lines were drawn!

What I've seen happen here is the worst case of identity theft going... and if I were this Israel I'd be more concerned with... atonement. The Muslims sense the Injustice and they feel it... but I can name it. What happened here is not right, not even by Judean standards! There will never be peace until this is made right. Ever. It's just a case of land theft... and even back in the day... when there was an Israel - it never owned the coast-line.

The Ninth Scribe
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afriend
06-29-2006, 07:44 PM
:ooh:

That's facts for you :)
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Excuse me, but.... Israel?

And just what are the Muslims guilty of? Fighting Israel? No! You fought Israel! You wiped it off the face of the map and destroyed it's seed... and without them you will never BE Israel! At least when Ezra returned, he knew who he was and where he came from. He knew where the lines were drawn!

What I've seen happen here is the worst case of identity theft going... and if I were this Israel I'd be more concerned with... atonement. What happened here is not right, not even by Judean standards!

The Ninth Scribe
Oh so your looking for a religious discussion...

Please. Spare yourself the pain.

King David followed the Torah... he was a Jew.
Moses followed the Torah.... he was a Jew.
The Israelites followed the Torah... they were Jews.

The Torah states that G-d will never send a prophet to say its rules are not in effect... therefore...

Muslims do not follow Torah... Muslims are nor Jews... Muslims are not Israel. Very simple. Now are you going to throw at me a bunch of verses from the Quran? Don't care... the Quran (no offense to more respectful members) is of no signifigance to me.

I should be concerned about atonement... I say YOU should be concerned about attonement.
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 07:55 PM
Bottom line, i pray that all the muslim leaders come to there senses and dsetroy this zionist disease before it wipes out the people of phalestine. Destroy zionism and put an end to world terror. i wish jus one of these muslims nations would destroy this zionst disease and all thos associted with it.
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afriend
06-29-2006, 07:59 PM
I think u misunderstood, lavikor.....

Anyway, this question pops up in my mind a lot, the holy land is holy to the 3 monotheic religions, Judaism, Christianity, as well as Islam.....How can you declare that land as 'your's'?
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
I think u misunderstood, lavikor.....

Anyway, this question pops up in my mind a lot, the holy land is holy to the 3 monotheic religions, Judaism, Christianity, as well as Islam.....How can you declare that land as 'your's'?
I don't declare it as mine... But the Jews were there many years before Chrsitians and Muslims...
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
Bottom line, i pray that all the muslim leaders come to there senses and dsetroy this zionist disease before it wipes out the people of phalestine. Destroy zionism and put an end to world terror. i wish jus one of these muslims nations would destroy this zionst disease and all thos associted with it.
Oh they have all tried... didn't you hear. 7 Arab Nations attacked Israel in 4 wars and all lost to a smaller lesser equipped foe. :X

But I'm glad your the 'peaceful' type.
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
Bottom line, i pray that all the muslim leaders come to there senses and dsetroy this zionist disease before it wipes out the people of phalestine. Destroy zionism and put an end to world terror. i wish jus one of these muslims nations would destroy this zionst disease and all thos associted with it.
They tried before. All of them combined got whipped by Zahal and was sent home crying.
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Nablus
06-29-2006, 08:07 PM
i pray that all the muslim leaders come to there senses and dsetroy this zionist disease before it wipes out the people of phalestine. Destroy zionism and put an end to world terror. i wish jus one of these muslims nations would destroy this zionst disease and all thos associted with it.
But we dont have muslim leaders in the arab world

Islam will wipe out this cancer from the middle east
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
I think u misunderstood, lavikor.....

Anyway, this question pops up in my mind a lot, the holy land is holy to the 3 monotheic religions, Judaism, Christianity, as well as Islam.....How can you declare that land as 'your's'?
Christians aren't big on that whole Holy Land thing. Maybe back during the Crusades but not now. By the way Muslims have their Holy Land in Mecca.
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nablus
Islam will wipe out this cancer from the middle east
What is Islam waiting for?
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Oh so your looking for a religious discussion...

King David followed the Torah... he was a Jew.
Moses followed the Torah.... he was a Jew.
The Israelites followed the Torah... they were Jews.

The Torah states that G-d will never send a prophet to say its rules are not in effect... therefore...

Muslims do not follow Torah... Muslims are nor Jews... Muslims are not Israel. Very simple. Now are you going to throw at me a bunch of verses from the Quran? Don't care... the Quran (no offense to more respectful members) is of no signifigance to me.
The Jews FOUGHT the Israelites... remember? Ring any bells? Or are you just picking and choosing which parts of history and religion you want (again). Religious discussion? Please, isn't that how you made the CLAIM to that land in the first place?

You can't confuse me with all the, we are not a religion, we are a nation, but we got our land because of our religion. All I'll do is ask you to make up your mind and get your stories straight.

Oh, and just so you know, to answer your little dig, I'm neither Jew or Muslim and I wasn't quoting from the Quran - I was quoting your own scribe... the one who gave you your LAWS... Again!

Where I got the borders was from YOUR own maps, who was alloted what tribal lands. Not that things like that are of any concern to you, but the beach-front property was never yours to give back to the Muslims in the first place.

Ninth Scribe
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The Jews FOUGHT the Israelites... remember? Ring any bells? Religious discussion? Please, isn't that how you made the CLAIM to that land in the first place?

You can't confuse me with all the, we arenot a religion, we are a nation, but we got our land because of our religion. All I'll do is ask you to make up your mind and get your stories straight.

Oh, and just so you know, to answer your little dig, I'm neither Jew or Muslim and I wasn't quoting from the Quran - I was quoting your own scribe... the one who gave you your LAWS... Again!

Where I got the borders was from YOUR own maps, who was alloted what lands, not that things like that are of any concern to you. The beach-front property was never yours to give back to the Muslims in the first place.

Ninth Scribe
There is was a civil war between Judah and Israel, but both sides still held the Torah has the word of G-d. Something Muslims do not do so therefore, they aren't even in the picture.
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afriend
06-29-2006, 08:13 PM
That's a great point, 9th S.
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afriend
06-29-2006, 08:17 PM
Those figures are devastatingly high......
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abdmez
06-29-2006, 08:17 PM
That sounds like a fair trade... 400 prisoners for 'information' on the missing soldier. If Israel offered that one I'd take it in a second.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
They tried before. All of them combined got whipped by Zahal and was sent home crying.
Times and places are comical considering. Even the Jews had their butts whipped and on more than one occassion! The whipping of the butts isn't going to solve this issue... all it does is waste resources and split the Ummah even further. To have peace, there has to be agreement between the households. Agree that these Jews are Iraqis, of the seed of Abraham, and we have a beginning. Bring the run-away back home and try them as you would try any other Iraqi guilty of a criminal offense.

Ninth Scribe
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Times and places are comical considering. Even the Jews had their butts whipped and on more than one occassion! The whipping of the butts isn't going to solve this issue... all it does is waste resources and split the Ummah even further. To have peace, there has to be agreement between the households. Agree that these Jews are Iraqis, of the seed of Abraham, and we have a beginning. Bring the run-away back home and try them as you would try any other Iraqi guilty of a criminal offense.

Ninth Scribe
Ok you've lost me
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
They haven't done so, as this will cause an uproar throughout the whole world, why are u stealing their country? Give it back, it's not your's.....

Really childish, what you would say to a grade 1 student, a little toddler.
Since when have Israel cared about what the world thinks? I've never seen them back down no matter how much the world have condemned them. The whole Mohammed riots burned up all your good will in the West.
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Vishnu
06-29-2006, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Times and places are comical considering. Even the Jews had their butts whipped and on more than one occassion! The whipping of the butts isn't going to solve this issue... all it does is waste resources and split the Ummah even further. To have peace, there has to be agreement between the households. Agree that these Jews are Iraqis, of the seed of Abraham, and we have a beginning. Bring the run-away back home and try them as you would try any other Iraqi guilty of a criminal offense.

Ninth Scribe
You must be kidding. The records of Rome, Babylon, Greece, Egypt all prove that not only did the Jews (They followed Torah) live in Israel, but this was thousands of years before Islam.

Muslims as lavikor explained were not the israelites because Muslims do not follow Torah.

Your whole rant about the Iraqi thing sounded like a Neo-nazi speech... "Lets get all those Jews back to Iraq and get em'... PLEASE!

Your a sick person 9scribe.

Since when have Israel cared about what the world thinks? I've never seen them back down no matter how much the world have condemned them. The whole Mohammed riots burned up all your good will in the West.
Since when has anyone cared what Israel thinks... all these corrupt people with oil against it, and all these people who hate 'infidels' its a miracle Israel is here.

1.4 Billion Muslims declared war on Israel when they divided the land jewish-and Arab... 4 Million Jews not only beat them... but took there land by counter attacking! LOL.
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:32 PM
ganeshsikhim are you feeling+o( ;D
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
There is was a civil war between Judah and Israel, but both sides still held the Torah has the word of G-d. Something Muslims do not do so therefore, they aren't even in the picture.
That civil war of yours was never resolved and I strongly doubt any true Israelite would be happy that you laid claim to their tribe's lands. Those lands were alloted for a reason remember? You act as if you gracefully inherited it from them, but they never left it to you in the first place.

And, speaking of the Torah, which actually does go over which tribes had rights to what lands... your people have violated that, so spare me the useless sentiments. If you don't respect the word of that book, then you don't deserve it's benefits.

Ninth Scribe
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:34 PM
ganeshyoumakemesickhim your post are very devious and i get th feeling ou a snake.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2006, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Your whole rant about the Iraqi thing sounded like a Neo-nazi speech... "Lets get all those Jews back to Iraq and get em'... PLEASE!.
Oh, I see... so Abraham never came from Babylon? Giggles. He was born in the land of Israel? And the Israelites actually owned Philistine?

You're absolutely right... what on earth was I thinking!? Sarcastic Sneer.

Ninth Scribe... sorry guys, but as entertaining as this is, I have to go to work... but I'll be back!
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:41 PM
Dont worry ninth scribe ganeshyoumakemesick is a world renowned professor of religius studies he know all world religions just like he knows where and when he was born.:giggling:
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
That civil war of yours was never resolved and I strongly doubt any true Israelite would be happy that you laid claim to their tribe's lands. Those lands were alloted for a reason remember? You act as if you gracefully inherited it from them, but they never left it to you in the first place.

And, speaking of the Torah, which actually does go over which tribes had rights to what lands... your people have violated that, so spare me the useless sentiments. If you don't respect the word of that book, then you don't deserve it's benefits.

Ninth Scribe



Any Jew today is a mix between many tribes... there is not 'tribal blood' anymore... the lost tribes of Dan for example have been found in Ethiopia and are now in the holy land as we have records and traced there roots...

Israel was promised in the Torah to the Jewish people... King david ruled all israel by the Torah before Islam... Israel has always been jewish... How about the revolts against Rome? Jewish... All of Israel was Jewish.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Oh, I see... so Abraham never came from Babylon? Giggles. He was born is the land of Israel. And the Israelites actually owned Philistine?

You're absolutely right... what on earth was I thinking!? Sarcastic Sneer.

Ninth Scribe... sorry guys, but as entertaining as this is, I have to go to work.
Judaism never started untill we got the Torah and that was Moses. The way you 'revision' history is very comical.
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:43 PM
alpha dude how can you say that beause to anybody else what the germans did is not the same. why because this time its muslims that are having a holocaust againts them by the zionist regime. cut them of from society and any form of civilization to the point where they have nothing left to live for then you wonder why they blow themselves up in a bar full of off duty soldiers.
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Yes cut off the water, the electricity, the food and turn Gaza into one big concentration camp. Watch as Israel does the exact same thing the Germans did in the Warsaw Ghetto among other places. Watch as Israel becomes the most murderous regime on earth.

Should this come to pass the Israeli regime should be removed.
Oh please... comparing the Warsaw Ghetto to the Gaza Strip... your knowledge of such events is so naive.

Israel is not shipping people off to be gased, Israel isn't liquidating them... Israel is not exterminating Palestinians...

Israel is searching for a missing soldier.

Cut them off from society... they run there own borders with Egypt!
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:46 PM
so was i:happy:
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Isaac
06-29-2006, 08:48 PM
see what i mean alpha due, you cant cmpare it to what the germans did, cos its muslims and not jews that are being opressed. it hurst when it happens in your own back yard
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abdmez
06-29-2006, 08:49 PM
Wow, everyone on both sides are so hateful...

Do any of you really care about the Palestinians? I think you all care about hating your enemies, and the future of my people and my children don't matter to any of you.

Its all about Iran must die.... Zionists must die...

No one suports the peace process which is slowly dieing, my people are just pawns in Middle Eastern politics.

I support getting a Palestinian State! Not a prolounged conflict that when I die my kids will have no securuity and safety.

It goes both ways! Hamas and Iran don;t care about me or my people... they want destruction as do those hardcore zionsist...

Hamas should never have kidnapped they knew what would have happend.
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scentsofjannah
06-29-2006, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Pathetic distorted view of the world, brought to you by Al-Jazeera.
aljazeera has many jewish/israeli employees

peace
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scentsofjannah
06-29-2006, 09:04 PM
i hope everyone will live in peace ..jewish christian and muslim...this world is like a boat..if someone causes discord..it will sink..and everyone will drown

peace
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root
06-29-2006, 09:08 PM
Hamas should never have kidnapped they knew what would have happend.
It was a dumb move. I have to say I am really quite nuetral to the affairs but many did predicted a disaster as a result of Hamas being voted in. If the UK voted in the BNP I would expect things to go wrong very quickly within the UK, the Palestinians knew Hamas are hell bent on destroying Israel and it seems it is more than happy to let the palestinians suffer to pursue this goal.

Let us not elude ourselves, Hamas could return that soldier with a snap of the finger!
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
alpha dude how can you say that beause to anybody else what the germans did is not the same. why because this time its muslims that are having a holocaust againts them by the zionist regime. cut them of from society and any form of civilization to the point where they have nothing left to live for then you wonder why they blow themselves up in a bar full of off duty soldiers.
4000 people in the last 10 years is hardly a holocaust.
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abdmez
06-29-2006, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
4000 people in the last 10 years is hardly a holocaust.
Each person is still a life! To compare it to the Holocaust is ridiculous, and I am sure israeli's have had many casualties to... but the point is that... the whole world looks at palestinians as a number... a political use... a way to destroy Israel. No one really cares about us.
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Geronimo
06-29-2006, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Each person is still a life! To compare it to the Holocaust is ridiculous, and I am sure israeli's have had many casualties to... but the point is that... the whole world looks at palestinians as a number... a political use... a way to destroy Israel. No one really cares about us.
Oh I don't disagree. I'm just saying call it what it is a tragedy not a holocaust. I wonder if Israel left the West Bank and half of Jerusalem would people here be happy with that
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scentsofjannah
06-29-2006, 09:40 PM
heres a list of jewish people who are passionately anti zionist.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/index.htm

Scottish Jews for Peace http://blog.sjjp.org.uk/

Colorado Jews for a just peace www.cjjp.org We believe that peace in Israel requires Israel's withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, establishment of a sovereign, viable Palestinian state, and strong security guarantees for both states

True Torah jews against zionism http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization formed by a group of religious Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world and the American public and politicians in particular, that the idealogy of Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

In support of their position they have gathered quotes from many respected Rabbis.


Rabbis before World War I
Maimonides
Rabbi Yitzchok Aramah
The Maharal of Prague
Rabbi Avraham Galanti
Rabbi Bechaye
Rabbi Aryeh Leib Alter
Rabbi Nachman
Rabbi Yechezkel Halberstam
Rabbi Tazdok Hakohen of Lublin
Rabbi Yehoshua Leib Diskin
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld
Rabbi Yehoshea Dzikover


Rabbis before World War II
Rabbi David Friedman of Karlin
Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk
Rabbi Yosef Rozen
Rabbi Avraham Freund
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman
Rabbi Chaim Soloveichik of Brisk
Rabbi Chofetz Chaim
Rabbi Sholem Schneersohn
Rabbi Shaul Brach
Rabbi Yissachar Dov Belze Rabbe
Rabbi Chaim Oizer Grodzinski
Rabbi Chaim Elazar Shapiro


Rabbis after World War II
Satmar Grand Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum
Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky
Rabbi Yitzchock Zev Soloveitchik
Rabbi Avraham Yeshayau Karelitz
Rabbi Yitzchok Dov Koppelman
Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl
Rabbi Aharon Kotler
Rabbi Mordechai Gifter
Rabbi Elya Svei
Rabbi Baruch Kaplan
Rabbi Amram Blau
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt'l
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z"L

-------

Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org/

Congratulations and Well-Wishes to Hamas from Neturei Karta International, Diaspora
27 January 2006

With the help of the Almighty
Asaloom Aleikem

We are Neturei Karta International, representatives of the Torah abiding Jews throughout the world who stand true in their Torah observance and stand strong in their opposition to Zionism and the state of “Israel”.

As you may well know, we Torah Jews, have always stood in complete solidarity with the Palestinian people.

True to the precepts of the Torah, we have always acknowledged and accepted the Palestinian rule over the entire Palestine. Further, in accord with the Jewish teachings, whichever party and whichever system of government that the Palestinian people choose, was and is completely respected and accepted by us, the Jewish people.

Now, on the occasion of the recent elections that have taken place in Palestine, we join our brethren in Palestine, in humbly offering our blessings and congratulations to you leaders, followers, and supporters of the Hamas organization upon your success.

Torah true Jews have always been deeply pained by the suffering of the Palestinian people which has come about through the creation of the Zionist state – the state of “Israel” - the so-called “Jewish” state. This horrendous development is to the Torah Jews an unequaled tragedy and an extreme embarrassment, to say the least.

The Jewish people have been sent into exile close to two thousand years ago by a divine decree of the Almighty. In conjunction with this exile, He has commanded us, the Jewish people, to be loyal, law abiding, compassionate and peace-loving citizens, in every land wherein we reside.

Furthermore, we are to await patiently in exile, the revelation of the Almighty, when all mankind will recognize and serve Him together in harmony and joy. Any attempts to create our own state, in this our Heavenly decreed exile, is expressly forbidden. This prohibition is regardless of whether the land in which the state is to be created, is inhabited or desolate.

The subjugation, oppression and ultimate expulsion of a people in order to accomplish the goal of creating a state, only compounds the crime and sin, is expressly forbidden and is antithetical to all the concepts of Judaism.

The Zionists have ignored all the aforementioned. They, with brazen chutzpah rebelled against the Almighty and the laws of His Torah with the conception of the Zionist ideolegy and by creating and operating the state of “Israel.” They have expelled large numbers of Palestinian people and relentlessly and unremittingly subjugated and oppressed the remaining Palestinians and religious Jews throughout Palestine for nearly an entire century.

Therefore we declare our total opposition to Zionism and the state of “Israel”. We furthermore declare our total support and solidarity with you, the Palestinian people.

Leaders of Hamas, upon your elevation to the position of official representatives of the entire Palestinian people, we offer our blessing and a prayer to the Almighty:

MAY the Almighty guide you and bestow upon you His wisdom to enable you to lead the Palestinian nation according to His will.

MAY the Almighty unite the hearts of the Palestinian people to accept and embrace your leadership with love and good will.

MAY it be the will of the Almighty that we should merit to see the peaceful and speedy dismantlement of the Zionist entity - the state of “Israel” and the transformation of rule over the entire Holy Land, including of course Al-Quds, to its proper rulers, the Palestinian people. Then we can once again live according to the will of the Almighty, Arab and Jew as neighbors, as we have been doing for so many hundreds of years up until the inception of Zionism.

ULTIMATELY, MAY it be the will of the Almighty that the entire world merit in the near future, to behold the revelation of His glory, when all mankind will serve Him in joy and harmony, AMEN.

Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta International, USA

Rabbi Ahron Cohen
Neturei Karta, UK
there are also many other organisations and groups

Jewish Voice for Peace (San Francisco) Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (Washington, DC) Philadelphia Jewish Peace Network (Philadelphia) Not In My Name (Chicago) Jewish Voice Against the Occupation (Seattle) Jews Against The Occupation (New York) Visions of Peace With Justice in Israel/Palestine (Boston) Jewish Women for Justice in Israel/Palestine (Boston)
.
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I R Paki
06-29-2006, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Oh I don't disagree. I'm just saying call it what it is a tragedy not a holocaust. I wonder if Israel left the West Bank and half of Jerusalem would people here be happy with that
yes
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scentsofjannah
06-29-2006, 09:43 PM
another website of interest

Jews for justice for palestinians http://www.jfjfp.org/

this is from their site

STOP ISRAELI WAR CRIMES
SUPPORT PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS
Vigil in Parliament Square Friday 30th June 2006 5.30 - 7pm
Contact your MP

The Israeli government have amassed troops on the outskirts of Gaza and are moving into Rafah, threatening invasion to rescue one Israeli soldier taken hostage on Sunday 25th June.

There are currently 300 Palestinian children (under 18’s) and 100 Palestinian women being held hostages in Israeli prisons. They are among 9,000 Palestinians being held, many of whom are in administrative detention - i.e. without trial or charges. However Israeli leader Ehud Olmert says negotiations ‘are not on the agenda’.

The Israeli army have killed 50 Palestinians since the beginning of this month. Any invasion will inevitably lead to many more Palestinians casualties. Since last night the Israeli army has destroyed the electricity supplies of over half of the Gaza Strip and is tightening its closure and strangulation of the area, thus committing an illegal act of collective punishment on the Palestinian Population. The situation is sure to get worse as Israeli tanks move into densely populated civilian areas, that have already suffered heavily from several months of daily shelling and closures.

The PSC is calling for a vigil against Israeli War Crimes and in support of Palestinian Human Rights this Friday (30th June) from 5:30 to 7pm in Parliament Square. We call on all supporters of Palestine to make their presence known in this current emergency.

Please note that this is a lawful protest.

We would also like to ask you to please contact you MPs and ask them to protest at the attack on Gaza, to ask questions in Parliament and to the Foreign Office. The FO can be contacted directly too, as the actions of the Israeli State contravene International Law and the UK must stop these war crimes from happening.
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lavikor201
06-29-2006, 09:58 PM
The Nutrei Karta is a group that supports a fanatical Rebbe and they make up about less than 1% of Jews... This Rebbe teaches that the Holy Land must be under Palestinian control before the Messiah comes... then when the Messiah comes they will be your enemy and want to destroy all in there path.

There misguided and there Rebbe which many jews say they worship making them not Jews in reality because you cant worship a human is anti-israel because he mistranslates verses..

He thinks because Jews control jerusalem that we will build the temple instead of waiting for the Messiah which is completley wrong.

How about these guys though:

http://wordofmessiah.org/muslims_4_israel.htm

Prof. Khaleel Mohammed, Assistant Professor at the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, is the latest Muslim expert to say that the Koran - the holiest Muslim work - is actually Zionist.

In an interview with Jamie Glazov of FrontPageMagazine.com (June 3, 2004), Mohammed quoted the Koran (5:20-21) as saying: "Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

Mohammed emphasized that the above phrase, "God has written for you," is very significant: "In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term 'written,' there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness, and immutability...So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point of view: If God has 'written' Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?" He also quoted two of Islam's most famous exegetes - Ibn Kathir and Muhammad al-Shawkani - as supporting this explanation.

Imam Abdul Hadi Palazzi, secretary-general of the Italian Muslim Association, has long promoted that it is possible to be a Muslim scholar and leader and still support America, Israel, and democracy. Citing pro-Jewish verses in the Koran, Palazzi told a Jewish audience in Cleveland recently, "There are many good Muslims who value life on earth and the sanctity of their families. Israel should make every effort to support the growth of a pro-Israel movement among these Muslims...[but sadly, Muslims in Israel were emotionally and morally defeated by the Oslo Accords.] They felt that Israel was selling them out to Arafat. They need to be supported and encouraged to speak out in defense of Israel without fear of being assassinated by the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] or Hamas...Oslo signaled to many of us that Israel was ready to accept peace at any price, and make incredible concessions to ruthless criminals."

Arab-American Nonie Darwish has recently opened a Web site, www.ArabsforIsrael.com . The site states, inter alia, "We are Arabs and [Muslims] who believe we can support the State of Israel and the Jewish religion and still treasure our Arab and Islamic culture."

Mohammed, in his interview with FrontPageMagazine, apportions at least partial blame for today's wars to the Muslims of the seventh century: "[W]hen the Muslims entered that land [the Holy Land] in the seventh century, they were well aware of its rightful owners [the Jews], and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action - wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis."

"When the Muslims conquered Jerusalem," Mohammed continued, "it should have been left open for the rightful owners to return. It is possible that Jewish beliefs of the time only allowed such return under a Messiah - but that should not have influenced Muslim action...[The] Muslim occupation and building a mosque on the site of the Temple was something that was not sanctioned by the Koran. How honest is contemporary Islam with this? Given the situation in the Middle East, politicking, etc. stands in the way of honesty."

Mohammed says that Muslim groups have frequently denounced him because he is "out of line with the geopolitical movement toward fundamentalism." "What your readers must understand is that fundamentalism is rapidly becoming mainstream. Moderation is not. A perfect example is in Akbar Ahmed's "Islam Under Siege," where he points out that the Taliban are no longer a fringe group in Pakistan; many Pakistanis are finding themselves drawn to their teachings. Right here in the U.S., I present a problem to those at mosques who use social pressure to coerce others into accepting their extremism…Many Muslims stand against me for no other reason than I say that Israel has a right to exist...I in no way deny that Palestinians have rights. But this is generally not considered by those that criticize my position..."
http://www.geocities.com/compassionplease/IslamIsrael


http://www.arabsforisrael.com/
Reply

abdmez
06-29-2006, 10:00 PM
Both of your arguments are ridiculous.
Reply

lavikor201
06-29-2006, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Both of your arguments are ridiculous.
I will stop bantering with these people if they stop...

I'm extending the olive branch... but then again we already know what there awnser to the stop of fighting will be... don't we?
Reply

scentsofjannah
06-29-2006, 11:23 PM
if you have noticed i havent made any argument..i respect the right for jews and arabs(muslims+christians+druze) to live in peace and harmony

peace
Reply

snakelegs
06-30-2006, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Wow, everyone on both sides are so hateful...

Do any of you really care about the Palestinians? I think you all care about hating your enemies, and the future of my people and my children don't matter to any of you.

Its all about Iran must die.... Zionists must die...

No one suports the peace process which is slowly dieing, my people are just pawns in Middle Eastern politics.

I support getting a Palestinian State! Not a prolounged conflict that when I die my kids will have no securuity and safety.

It goes both ways! Hamas and Iran don;t care about me or my people... they want destruction as do those hardcore zionsist...

Hamas should never have kidnapped they knew what would have happend.
so true.
Reply

snakelegs
06-30-2006, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Each person is still a life! To compare it to the Holocaust is ridiculous, and I am sure israeli's have had many casualties to... but the point is that... the whole world looks at palestinians as a number... a political use... a way to destroy Israel. No one really cares about us.
i agree, nobody really gives a damn about the palestinians. pollitically, they are very useful. oppressive regimes in the muslim world can use this issue to distract their people from their own suffering and cry over the palestinians instead.
Reply

Isaac
06-30-2006, 07:26 AM
look i have some very good post, and i must say, that we can sit here and complain how both parties act uncivilised in regards to their position and power, but are we not doing the same thing. i have noticed we just sit here and just bring out proof for this article for that justifying this, justifying that, hes right, shes wrong kind of mentality. yet we do the same thing like what were complaining about, how hamas fires rockets, iraels bombs paletsne but in our own way. we can site here and just make each other look small, but its not changing what goes on out there and in other placed. if we cant see a common ground here on the internet, how do you expect them to see a common ground in a war torn country.

If ive offended anybody in my posts reagrding the israeli + palestinian conflict i apologize. because this is one very hot topic and not easy for someone to comment on unbiasly without getting emotional. so unless i can comment on this topic i will if not i will keep away.:thankyou:
Reply

Panatella
06-30-2006, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Wow, everyone on both sides are so hateful...

Do any of you really care about the Palestinians? I think you all care about hating your enemies, and the future of my people and my children don't matter to any of you.

Its all about Iran must die.... Zionists must die...

No one suports the peace process which is slowly dieing, my people are just pawns in Middle Eastern politics.

I support getting a Palestinian State! Not a prolounged conflict that when I die my kids will have no securuity and safety.

It goes both ways! Hamas and Iran don;t care about me or my people... they want destruction as do those hardcore zionsist...

Hamas should never have kidnapped they knew what would have happend.
This post should have to be read by all that want to comment on this thread and any like it. This is a person that is there and lives it.
I feel many people on this forum say they care about the palestinians, but truthfully just use the topic as an excuse to talk hatred of the Israelis. They hate them more than they care about the Palestinians.
Reply

dishdash
06-30-2006, 07:58 AM
Very well said Panatella. The trouble with most people on this forum is they are frustrated wannabe mujahids without even knowing what that really implies. And frustrated because whilst they would love to be out saving the world, their parents want them to finish their IT or medicine degrees.

Abdmez hits a rather painful nail on the head. Truth be told the majority here THINK they give a damn about the plight of a nation whereas their words are quite clearly conveying their lack of understanding of the people and history of Falasteen. In fact their words are more about the evils of Zionism. It's the same fallacious simplicity that pre1990s South Africa was subject to - oh it's black vs white etc.

Ask yourselves just how much you know about Palestine. About the people. About their history. How many of them do you speak to? What are THEIR aspirations? Asides from Arafat and the more recent less-charismatic leaders, what Palestinians can you name, or give a bio on? I'm betting you could do bio's on the hated Zionists in a lot more detail.

Abdmez - if nothing else, teach these flag waving Paki's what and WHO they are actually waving a flag for.

I organise events here in Oz. Do you know how easy it is to fill a hall to overflowing when you advertise it as a rally against the evils of Zionism?! Against the evenings where we congregate for a night of prayer and contemplation. Allah huakbar! Subhannallah! It is not even funny.

It's very easy to hate. And it's easy to be a rebel without a cause of your own. Really your own.

It's a lot harder to place your faith completely in Allah swt, the greatest of plotters.
Reply

Geronimo
06-30-2006, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
Very well said Panatella. The trouble with most people on this forum is they are frustrated wannabe mujahids without even knowing what that really implies. And frustrated because whilst they would love to be out saving the world, their parents want them to finish their IT or medicine degrees.

Abdmez hits a rather painful nail on the head. Truth be told the majority here THINK they give a damn about the plight of a nation whereas their words are quite clearly conveying their lack of understanding of the people and history of Falasteen. In fact their words are more about the evils of Zionism. It's the same fallacious simplicity that pre1990s South Africa was subject to - oh it's black vs white etc.

Ask yourselves just how much you know about Palestine. About the people. About their history. How many of them do you speak to? What are THEIR aspirations? Asides from Arafat and the more recent less-charismatic leaders, what Palestinians can you name, or give a bio on? I'm betting you could do bio's on the hated Zionists in a lot more detail.

Abdmez - if nothing else, teach these flag waving Paki's what and WHO they are actually waving a flag for.

I organise events here in Oz. Do you know how easy it is to fill a hall to overflowing when you advertise it as a rally against the evils of Zionism?! Against the evenings where we congregate for a night of prayer and contemplation. Allah huakbar! Subhannallah! It is not even funny.

It's very easy to hate. And it's easy to be a rebel without a cause of your own. Really your own.

It's a lot harder to place your faith completely in Allah swt, the greatest of plotters.
If ever I'm in the land of Oz I owe you lunch. What a great post.
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SirZubair
06-30-2006, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
If ever I'm in the land of Oz I owe you lunch. What a great post.
That is if i let him live long enough..
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Geronimo
06-30-2006, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
That is if i let him live long enough..
You Kiwis always with the violence:heated:
Reply

Lamaggad
06-30-2006, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Hamas should never have kidnapped they knew what would have happend.

Hamas don;t care about me or my people
Excuse me Mr. Peaceful Innocent man!!!!!

Hamas care about Palestine at least more than you and they never kidnapped this soldier and never even planed for it, that is first.

second, he was ARRESTED by the Palestinian RESISTANCE... and by all means they have the right to arrest him and arrest even more like him, israel is the one who started this fight as they have killed Huda Ghalya's family and destroyed homes and killed innocent people after that..!!!!

you should stand up and care about this girl and be mad for her since she lost ALL her siblings brothers and sister and her parents infront of her OWN EYES?!?! "THAT IS A NIGHT MARE FOR A LITTLE KID LIKE HER" what would you do if she is your sibling sister?!?!?! you are even forgetting that she is actually your sister in Islam.
HUDA GALYA

i can't believe that some of you who are Arabs and live over there talking about this soldier who was ARRESTED and forgetting about all the Palestinian children and women who was KIDNAPPED from their HOMES, and all the Palestinians girls who was RAPED, and all those CHILDREN who was KILLED for no reason and all those HOMES that was DESTROYED for no reason....

they have the right to do all that violence and terrorist attacks, and we don't have the right to ARREST one zionist soldier who is behind those attacks.

why aren't you getting the point that in every occupation there is RESISTANCE...?!?!

May Allah Guid us all
Reply

abdmez
06-30-2006, 03:47 PM
Lamagad your situation is very sad.

Go post some more material that will create an even bigger rift into the peace process.

I hope you enjoy the suffering of my people from Canada. I heard it is very nice there. You can just turn on your television, go on this message board and post more hate. Maybe in between you can go skiing! Have a little snow fight.

More kids will die, and more will become orphans as long as hateful people like you use my people as your tools, and reject peace.

Huda Galya is my sister in Islam... and the best thing I can do for my people is stand up with courage against hate mongers and demand peace... Once peace is achieved there will be no more orphans...

If we continue to hate like you want to do... my children may become the next orphans for all I know... but hey... Your in Canada! What worry do you have? Your set.
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muslim_friend
06-30-2006, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
If we continue to hate like you want to do... my children may become the next orphans for all I know...
Allah forbid that happens. Sister lamaggad, Not everyone can be a mujahid. bro here is worried that his family might get caught up in this war.. he loves his family as much as you and i love ours..
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Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
heres a list of jewish people who are passionately anti zionist.

True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization formed by a group of religious Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world and the American public and politicians in particular, that the idealogy of Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism.
My point exactly! I'm not happy that the Torah was used and degraded in the way it has been, to become the quickest means to an end. That's why I focus my light on the lands that were allocated to the 12 tribes. Because even when Israel was one nation, these borders existed between them and they were honored. Even when Ezra returned from his exile to the land of his fathers (Babylon), he respected the borders, and only re-occupied Judea, because he knew it was all that was entitled to them.

What has been done here is based on greed and a hunger for power to rule this Earth. The words of the Torah are being deliberately deployed as weapons, while the meaning goes lost, and if you don't think that's an affront to God... fasten your seatbelts and make sure your trays are locked in the up-right position! That's all I have to say on this matter until October.

The Ninth Scribe
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lavikor201
06-30-2006, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
More kids will die, and more will become orphans as long as hateful people like you use my people as your tools, and reject peace.

Huda Galya is my sister in Islam... and the best thing I can do for my people is stand up with courage against hate mongers and demand peace... Once peace is achieved there will be no more orphans...

If we continue to hate like you want to do... my children may become the next orphans for all I know... but hey... Your in Canada! What worry do you have? Your set.
Good post. It is very meaningful and I want peace just as bad... believe me.


My point exactly! I'm not happy that the Torah was used and degraded in the way it has been, to become the quickest means to an end. That's why I focus my light on the lands that were allocated to the 12 tribes. Because even when Israel was one nation, these borders existed between them and they were honored. Even when Ezra returned from his exile to the land of his fathers (Babylon), he respected the borders, and only re-occupied Judea, because he knew it was all that was entitled to them.

What has been done here is based on greed and a hunger for power to rule this Earth. The words of the Torah are being deliberately deployed as weapons, while the meaning goes lost, and if you don't think that's an affront to God... fasten your seatbelts and make sure your trays are locked in the up-right position! That's all I have to say on this matter until October.
No matter what civil war happend between the Jews. The land was always inhabited before Islam by Torah faithful people. Muslims are not Toah faithful, therefore it could not have been them...

Your saying that the fact that the Jews settle in a country that is the size of New Jersey where they ancestors lived for thousands of years is 'greed to take over the world'?

You sound like your making a Nazi or KKK propoganda speach...

Boy I can't wait to here your lies, and misquotations of the Torah and the Holy scriptures in October... It might be unberable to sit here and not hear complete lie from you until October.
Reply

Muezzin
06-30-2006, 06:49 PM
:rollseyes

Right. Since some people cannot follow a simple instruction, I'm closing this thread.

Edit: thread re-opened after deletion of irrelevant posts. Stay on-topic or it will be locked again and warnings will be issued.
Reply

Lamaggad
06-30-2006, 07:04 PM
you guys are offending me and disrespecting me for no reason...

were did i say i am against peace?!?! were exactly did i say i enjoy killing people and see them suffering?!?! who are you any way to say such things about me?!? have i ever met any one of you before..?!?!

abdmez since you are my brother in Islam, all what I'm going to tell you, is may Allah forgive you for what you have said about me.
Islam orders you to respect others opinions and point of view and respond decently without offending any one... if you can't follow this rule in Islam then at least respect the forum rules for members on this forum.
lavikor201 thank you very much for understanding my intention and thanks for editing your post, i appreciate that :) :)

NOW....

what i have said is very reasonable, zionist forces have arrested Palestinians (children, women and men) since the past 20 years, then why don't we do the same and arrest their soldiers who have killed and arrest our people?!?!
israel want to have this soldier back then just release our children, we never asked them for a fight, Palestinian were very clear, release Palestinians lives for his life?! was that too much to ask for?!?!? not to mention EVERY ONE even the Palestinian families who have kids in israeli jails, have asked to treat this zionist hostage well and fairly and not to do with him like what is happening to Palestinians in the israeli jails...

why every one didn't mention this point?!?! israel always wanted to fight, threaten us for an attack that will not solve any thing but make things more complicated... there violence attitude is crap... they can prove to us that they are peaceful people by releasing the women and kids... but they basically aren't. they chose to attack us instead. again we NEVER asked for a FIGHT. they are the one who CHOSE that them selves.

would any one give away his wife and children lives for peace while you have a chance to save them?!



P.S: Muezzin Jazaka Allah khair for reopening the thread :) although i totally understand why you have closed it.

anyhow.. thanks again! :)

Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 07:06 PM
I believe the dispute over the land of Israel can be resolved to the satisfaction of all involved, if everyone can put their passions and name-calling aside and make the concessions. EVERYONE will be asked to give up something, but I know this can be done.

If I'm wrong... you can always return to the current blood-bath.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

lavikor201
06-30-2006, 07:06 PM
again we NEVER asked for a FIGHT
Of course you did. The whole Arab world asked for a fight when they attacked Israel in 1948. Hamas asked for a fight when they kidnapped a soldier. Did they think Israel would do nothing?

If 7 Arab Nations did not start 4 wars with Israel there would be no 'occupation'.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Of course you did. The whole Arab world asked for a fight when they attacked Israel in 1948... snip... Did they think Israel would do nothing?

If 7 Arab Nations did not start 4 wars with Israel there would be no 'occupation'.
This "my way or the highway" attitude goes nowhere but in circles. Are you saying that seven Arab nations had four wars with Israel... for no reason? I find it very hard to believe that so many people were affected by nothing... and can be so easily ignored.

Ninth Scribe
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lavikor201
06-30-2006, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
This "my way or the highway" attitude goes nowhere but in circles. Are you saying that seven Arab nations had four wars with Israel... for no reason? I find it very hard to believe that so many people were affected by nothing and can be so easily ignored.

Ninth Scribe
Oh no they had a reason. There hatred of the Jews. Israel wanted to live peacefully but all of its Arab neighbors could never live with that.
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Lamaggad
06-30-2006, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Of course you did. The whole Arab world asked for a fight when they attacked Israel in 1948. Hamas asked for a fight when they kidnapped a soldier. Did they think Israel would do nothing?

If 7 Arab Nations did not start 4 wars with Israel there would be no 'occupation'.
lavikor201, why would the whole Arab ask for a fight?!?! they will not ask for fight for no reason, you are talking about the whole Arabs world.. does that mean that the whole Arab world are wrong and israel is the innocent country who wants peace but can't find a partner to share the peace?!?! there should be something missing here... right?!?!

finally wene they have ARRESTED the soldier, they have asked to release women and children, Hamas never asked for a fight, Hamas said that israel should be responsible for what is happening as they are the one who attacked Gaza and killed Huda Ghalya's family...

P.S: please don't keep saying kidnapped as he is a soldiers who is fighting in a middle of an occupation... they did not go to his house and kidnap him from his family!! he was out there in his bulldozer hunting Palestinians in Gaza.. so he should be arrested and we have the right to arrest him and arrest soldiers like him as we want to stop him for killing innocent people in Palestine.

why aren't you saying any thing about the women and children who are arrested?!?! why do they have to be in the israeli jails?!?!?!?! and why the home should be destroyed every day?!?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Israel wanted to live peacefully but all of its Arab neighbors could never live with that.
If Israel were to keep the land of Judea and offer the land of the 10 tribes to Palestine on the condition that every Arab tribe agrees to end this dispute, would Israel consent to that? I know, it's a fantasy, but indulge me for the moment... if EVERYONE agreed to end this right here and now... would Israel agree to it?

Ninth Scribe
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Vishnu
06-30-2006, 07:29 PM
Hamas said that israel should be responsible for what is happening as they are the one who attacked Gaza and killed Huda Ghalya's family...
There would be no beach incident if hamas wasn;t firing Kasam Rockets at Israel despite the so called 'truce' they had.

They even fired a rocket into a school! What is Israel suppose to do? Sit there and take it.

why would the whole Arab ask for a fight?!?!
There intolerance towards 'infidels'


P.S: please don't keep saying kidnapped as he is a soldiers who is fighting in a middle of an occupation... they did not go to his house and kidnap him from his family!! he was out there in his bulldozer hunting Palestinians in Gaza.. so he should be arrested and we have the right to arrest him and arrest soldiers like him as we want to stop him for killing innocent people in Palestine.
He was kidnapped because he was not fighting, he was standing gaurd on Israel's border in ISRAEL.

why aren't you saying any thing about the women and children who are arrested?!?!
Why would Israel arrest them. Very easy! They were causing trouble. They were plotting against Israel.

If you plot to destroy Pakistan they will arrest you. If you plot to destroy Iran they will arrest you.

If Israel were to keep the land of Judea and offer the land of the 10 tribes to Palestine on the condition that every Arab tribe agrees to end this dispute, would Israel consent to that? I know, it's a fantasy, but indulge me for the moment... if EVERYONE agreed to end this right here and now... would Israel agree to it?

Ninth Scribe
if Israel agreed to do that, the Arabs would never allow it! Judea is home to Jerusalem... you think the Arab nations will allow Israel to keep jerusalem. Your in a dream world.
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

That's true.

From Dr. Habib Siddiqui:
Scores of Jewish scholars and historians can be cited, including Ben-Sasson[27] and Abba Eban[28] to prove him unreliable, hostile and lying.

Let me quote from the scholarly work, A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson (Harvard University Press, 1976), an Israeli historian:
"The height of magnificence and luxury was reached by the wealthy Jews in the lands of Islam, particularly in Moslem Spain. We know that the court bankers of Baghdad in the tenth century kept open house for
numerous guests and for the poor. Similarly, the ceremonies of the Jewish leaders in Babylonia [Iraq] and the patronage of the leading Jews in Moslem Spain, indicate conditions of ease and plenty.

"The attitude toward these non-Moslems in the Islamic territories was shaped in principle in accordance with the concept of dhimma, meaning protection granted to them by agreement or treaty… In return, their lives and property were protected and, in accordance with the general attitude of Islam to infidels, they were assured liberty of faith and worship. They were also permitted to organize themselves as they wished, and the Jews fully availed themselves of that permission.

"From the Jewish viewpoint, this conglomerate of Moslem attitudes to infidels was easier to live with than the one that had been established by Christianity, particularly in the Byzantine Empire. As we have noted above, for hundreds of years the overwhelming majority of Jews lived in the Islamic territories. Although it is possible to perceive some Christian impact on the Moslem attitude towards non-believers and even towards the Christians themselves, the moderation with which the Moslems applied this influence proved to be of great importance to the majority of Jewry over a long period. Unlike the masses of Christians and pagans who joined the Moslems over the first half century or so, the overwhelming majority of the Jews under Moslem rule held firmly to their own faith."[29]
As to the settlement and economic activity in the 16th and 17th centuries and the establishment of the Sephardic Diaspora in the Ottoman Empire, the above book states:
"A considerable stream of exiles from Spain overflowed into the Ottoman Empire. Once the latter had annexed Erez Yisrael, it became a lodestone for Marranos who wished to repent and return to their former faith…. The sultan at the time of the expulsion, Bayezid, welcomed the refugees fleeing from the fanatical Christians. As recorded by a Jewish contemporary ‘the Sultan sent men ahead, and spread the word through his kingdom in writing as well, declaring that none of his officers in any of his cities dare to drive the Jews out or expel them, but all of them were to welcome the Jews cordially.’ It can be assumed that this imperial protection and the order granting right of domicile were issued through the influence of the leaders of the long-established Jewish community in the Ottoman Empire… Success was not restricted exclusively to medical and court circles. It seems that in the Ottoman Empire it was felt that the absorption of the exiles from the West provided social, cultural and even military advantages… The exiles gradually dispersed throughout the main cities of the Empire. Many synagogues were to be found in Constantinople during the sixteenth century. In this city they settled in quarters where Jews had not formerly resided. Salonika also became one of their main centres, and similarly Adrianople and Smyrna (Izmir). The exiles also established themselves in smaller cities. Expulsions from southern Italy helped to diversify the Jewish community and increase the various congregations in the Empire."[30]
What is clear is that historically the relationship between Jews and Muslims living under Muslim Sultans was rather amicable and, that even in places like Palestine, Muslim people did not have any problem with Jews living there. The relationship soured only after the Balfour Declaration (1917) when the British allowed European Jews to colonize Palestine.[31]
_______
[27] A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson.
[28] Heritage: Civilization and the Jews by Abba Eban.
[29] For a brief review of the book, see: http://www.muhajabah.com/jewsofislam.htm
[30] op. cit., pp. 631-3
[31] See this author’s article: The Case of Jerusalem – for a detailed treatment of the holy city.
:w:
Yes, exactly

If you wanna use the argument that Jews had that area before anyone else, there were people that had that area before Jews so that argument is bull...not to mention Palestinians were living peacefully before this...I know Jews who agree with me that the occupation is wrong...

Plus..check this out...

Image 1

Image 2


Image 3

30 Facts About Isreal

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85f the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15s divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85f the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15s distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($3.0 billion annually) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it?

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

30) Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.

"There is no intelligent or legal basis in history of Israeli Occupation of Arab Palestine..."~Malcolm X
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 07:34 PM
"I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure
on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."
-Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001
http://www.washington-report.org/html/newsitem_s.htm

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I encourage my soldiers to rape Arabic women and girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

-Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Me
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Muslim Professor: Koran agrees that Holy Land is Jewish

Prof. Khaleel Mohammed, Assistant Professor at the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, is the latest Muslim expert to say that the Koran - the holiest Muslim work - is actually Zionist.

In an interview with Jamie Glazov of FrontPageMagazine.com (June 3, 2004), Mohammed quoted the Koran (5:20-21) as saying: "Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

Mohammed emphasized that the above phrase, "God has written for you," is very significant: "In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term 'written,' there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness, and immutability...So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point of view: If God has 'written' Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?" He also quoted two of Islam's most famous exegetes - Ibn Kathir and Muhammad al-Shawkani - as supporting this explanation.

Imam Abdul Hadi Palazzi, secretary-general of the Italian Muslim Association, has long promoted that it is possible to be a Muslim scholar and leader and still support America, Israel, and democracy. Citing pro-Jewish verses in the Koran, Palazzi told a Jewish audience in Cleveland recently, "There are many good Muslims who value life on earth and the sanctity of their families. Israel should make every effort to support the growth of a pro-Israel movement among these Muslims...[but sadly, Muslims in Israel were emotionally and morally defeated by the Oslo Accords.] They felt that Israel was selling them out to Arafat. They need to be supported and encouraged to speak out in defense of Israel without fear of being assassinated by the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] or Hamas...Oslo signaled to many of us that Israel was ready to accept peace at any price, and make incredible concessions to ruthless criminals."

Arab-American Nonie Darwish has recently opened a Web site, www.ArabsforIsrael.com . The site states, inter alia, "We are Arabs and [Muslims] who believe we can support the State of Israel and the Jewish religion and still treasure our Arab and Islamic culture."

Mohammed, in his interview with FrontPageMagazine, apportions at least partial blame for today's wars to the Muslims of the seventh century: "[W]hen the Muslims entered that land [the Holy Land] in the seventh century, they were well aware of its rightful owners [the Jews], and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action - wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis."

"When the Muslims conquered Jerusalem," Mohammed continued, "it should have been left open for the rightful owners to return. It is possible that Jewish beliefs of the time only allowed such return under a Messiah - but that should not have influenced Muslim action...[The] Muslim occupation and building a mosque on the site of the Temple was something that was not sanctioned by the Koran. How honest is contemporary Islam with this? Given the situation in the Middle East, politicking, etc. stands in the way of honesty."

Mohammed says that Muslim groups have frequently denounced him because he is "out of line with the geopolitical movement toward fundamentalism." "What your readers must understand is that fundamentalism is rapidly becoming mainstream. Moderation is not. A perfect example is in Akbar Ahmed's "Islam Under Siege," where he points out that the Taliban are no longer a fringe group in Pakistan; many Pakistanis are finding themselves drawn to their teachings. Right here in the U.S., I present a problem to those at mosques who use social pressure to coerce others into accepting their extremism…Many Muslims stand against me for no other reason than I say that Israel has a right to exist...I in no way deny that Palestinians have rights. But this is generally not considered by those that criticize my position..."
wordofmessiah.org/muslims_4_israel.htm


http://www.geocities.com/compassionplease/IslamIsrael
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 07:41 PM
By Joseph Farah and ARAB!

If you think you get an accurate idea of what Arab leaders believe when you listen to Hannan Ashrawi interviewed on "Nightline" or on CNN, think again.

Yasser Arafat has played a skillful media manipulation game in the West, helping to persuade most Americans that the Middle East crisis can be settled by rearranging a few borders -- by Israel exchanging more "land for peace."

It's just simply not so, as I have attempted to point out recently with some historical perspective.

But, forget the history. You've all seen the inflammatory quotes from Arab leaders when they are not on western television and talking only to their own people. The hatred is palpable. These are not the kind of differences that can be worked out over a negotiating table.

And it's getting worse, not better.

Look at what a leading cleric in Gaza had to say in a sermon just last Friday. "None of the Jews refrain from committing any possible evil," said Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabita, former acting rector of the Islamic University. "If the Labor party commits the evil and the crime, the Likud party stands by it; and if the Likud party commits the evil and the crime, the Labor party stands by it. ... The Jews are Jews, whether Labor or Likud. ... They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They all want to distort truth, but we are in possession of the truth."

I would like to repeat that this is part of a sermon -- a sermon! But it gets even worse.

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists -- are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites," said the cleric. "They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers. ..."

There's more -- if you can stomach it.

"O brothers in belief, this is the case of the Jews and their habitual conduct, and what happened yesterday, and has been going on for two weeks, and before that for many years, and which will be repeated in future years unless we stand up like men and unless we have the known Muslim position, (the position) of those who wage Jihad in the path of Allah, those who defend their rights and who sacrifice all that is dear to them," said Halabita. "O brothers in belief, the beautiful bride has a costly price and dowry. ... Our bride is paradise, O brothers in belief. ...The cost and the dowry of this bride, the dowry of this paradise, is that we fight in the path of Allah, and kill and be killed."

And for those of you non-Jews, don't think this hatred is directed only toward Israel. Here's more from Halabita:

"This is the truth, O Brothers in belief. From here, Allah the almighty has called upon us not to ally with the Jews or the Christians, not to like them, not to become their partners, not to support them, and not to sign agreements with them. And he who does that, is one of them, as Allah said: 'O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies, for they are allies of one another. Who from among you takes them as allies will indeed be one of them. ...' The Jews are the allies of the Christians, and the Christians are the allies of the Jews, despite the enmity that exists between them. The enmity between the Jews and the Christians is deep, but all of them are in agreement against the monotheists -- against those who say, 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger,' that is -- they are against you, O Muslims."

Yes, this is a worldwide jihad.

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them -- and those who stand by them -- they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims -- because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost of their civilization -- and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists, the Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead. ..."

Land for peace? I don't think so.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
Yes, exactly

If you wanna use the argument that Jews had that area before anyone else, there were people that had that area before Jews so that argument is bull...not to mention Palestinians were living peacefully before this...I know Jews who agree with me that the occupation is wrong...
Agreed that everyone has conquered and occupied territories that didn't belong to them. Israel is by no means the only people on the planet to have done this. Everyone's history has this, and we all have commited vile acts against humanity too. My question is what will it take to end this?

Would Israel make the concession of land, if every Arab tribe were to agree to end this? Means no more walls, no more terrorists and no more tears. Israel would not be asked to give up a single square foot of land until it is fully agreed upon, even by the terrorists, that the issue is over... if this were possible, would Israel comply?

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 07:51 PM
Would Israel make the concession of land, if every Arab tribe were to agree to end this? Means no more walls, no more terrorists and no more tears. If it could be done... would Israel be willing to end this?
Of course Israel would... But it won't happen because of Hamas... Hamas Militant said it best.

"I will carry my rifle until every Jew is exterminated, just like Germany."
Reply

Lamaggad
06-30-2006, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Oh no they had a reason. There hatred of the Jews. Israel wanted to live peacefully but all of its Arab neighbors could never live with that.
why do you keep saying that?!?! is that sentence part of your religion or what?!?!?
Arabs doesn't HATE Jews..?! Prophet Muhammad companions were Jews...
I'm an Arab Palestinian who doesn't hate Jews, and I'm a person who have Jewish friends here in the forum and here in Canada.

that was the zionist msg to the Jewish people that they should learn that Arabs are Jews enemies and they should hate them.

that's why you think that way... no body wants to have a war bcz we hate?!? you can't keep saying that bcz that is not true.. it's actually the other way around.. zionist are the one who started to discriminate between Arabs and Jews... not only Arabs.. they also discriminated between Jews them selves Arabs Jews and non-Arabs Jews.
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 07:57 PM
"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them -- and those who stand by them -- they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims -- because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost of their civilization -- and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists, the Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead. ..."
Do they hate Zionists or Jews?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Of course Israel would... But it won't happen because of Hamas... Hamas Militant said it best.

"I will carry my rifle until every Jew is exterminated, just like Germany."
Yes, yes, I understand the passionate words... everyone has spoken passionate words! I myself have the mouth of a sailor at times, and that's putting it mildly... but you think Israel would agree? Then the burden now rests on Hamas since that concession is asking a lot of Israel and cannot be easily ignored.

Hmmm. Anyone here have any idea how Hamas might respond to such a generous offer?

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:02 PM
"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I encourage my soldiers to rape Arabic women and girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

-Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Me

Does he hate Arabs?


Anatomy of the West Bank 'Realignment'
By David Bloom
Sunday, June 25, 2006

The US government, with European urging, has requested that Israel give negotiation of a bilateral agreement with the Palestinian Authority one last shot. If by the end of the year the US agrees with Israel that no "suitable" Palestinian "partner for peace" exists, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's shaky Kadima-led government will continue the process of unilaterally separating Israelis from Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, and probably parts of occupied East Jerusalem. The process is expected to take four years.

During Olmert's recent visit, US President George Bush praised his plan for unilateral separation from the Palestinians as a "bold move" for peace. However, before Olmert came to the US, Israel had to shelve its request for immediate approval for its separation plan, called at the time the "convergence" plan, along with a $10 billion request to finance the resettlement of thousands of settlers from one part of the occupied West Bank to another—that is, inside Israel's yet-to-be completed separation barrier, declared illegal by the International Court of Justice at the Hague in July 2004. According to a May 15 report in the right-wing WorldnetDaily.com by Aaron Klein, the US balked at the price tag—so far.

The Numbers Game

Gideon Levy, writing in Ha'aretz May 28, says the number of settlers who would be removed from the eastern side of the barrier is now at most 40,000, down from the originally announced 70,000, in Olmert's "convergence" plan. The updated plan also has a new euphemism—"realignment." According to the Jerusalem Post on May 19, 70,000 is the number of settlers who currently live on the eastern or "Palestinian" side of the fence, suggesting some 30,000 settlers are to be left in place on the eastern side. These may become enclosed on the western "Israeli" side in extensions of the barrier yet to be announced. This trial balloon was floated before Olmert's DC trip, by his settlements advisor, Kadima party Knesset member (MK) Uzi Keren, who posited in a May 29 Jerusalem Post article that approximately 55 settlements out of 262 total will be beyond the barrier, but only "20-30" will be removed.

There are an estimated 445,000 Israeli settlers—defined as any Israeli citizens living in occupied Palestinian territory, including within the illegally annexed East Jerusalem area—and their number has actually grown since approximately 9,000 were removed from the Gaza Strip last summer. Under the current plan, only 40,000 will actually be moved anywhere, and generally the Kadima-led government says they will be moved to the existing settlement "blocs" on the western side of the barrier—thus still within occupied territory. The Israeli army intends to still operate in the area where settlers are earmarked to be removed.

The Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem lists the number of Israeli government-"approved" settlements (all are illegal under international law) as 152. In addition, there are 105 "illegal" settlement "outposts," according to a report by Israeli government-appointed attorney Talia Sasson. The Jerusalem Post on May 29 said 24 of these "illegal" outposts are slated for evacuation; the fate of the other 81 is to be "reconsidered" under the "realignment" plan. MK Keren said that the "Beit El group" of settlements, which include Ofra and Shilo, currently to the east of the planned route of the barrier, were likely to be included inside the fence. Even without these adjustments, according to B'Tselem, this would enclose 9.5% of the West Bank onto the "Israeli" side of the barrier. This figure does not include the Jordan Valley, itself about one third of the West Bank, but cut off from the rest of the Bank through a series of checkpoints (instead of a formal barrier), and it is unclear what its fate will be. It also does not include Hebron. The Jerusalem Post reported May 26 that Kadima's MK Otniel Schneller, who is involved in formulating the "realignment" plan, proposes to include the Jewish settlements within Hebron, which will be linked up to the nearby settlement of Kiryat Arba: "Hebron and Kiryat Arba are supposed to be part of the Israeli state," said Schneller. 450 Jewish settlers living in the "H2," or Israeli-controlled section of Hebron, have made life near impossible for the 20,000 Palestinian residents of the section, who are being effectively cleansed from the area through settler violence.

Even without Hebron or the Jordan Valley included, B'Tselem says 490,500 Palestinians will be directly affected by the barrier—42 communities, with 245,500 residents, including East Jerusalem, will be enclosed on the Israeli side. Fifty communities, with 244,000 residents, will be surrounded on at least three sides to the east of the barrier.

But the 9.5% figure—or the disingenuous 8% figure that David Makovsky of the Washington Institute for Near East affairs (WINEP) cites, which does not include East Jerusalem, doesn't tell the real story. Makovsky groans in WINEP position papers that the Palestinians will tend to look at the glass as 8% empty, instead of 92% full. The empty part of the glass—even if it ends up being only 8% empty—happens to contain the Palestinians' most valuable farmland, and all of its water resources.

Control of Water

Under the Oslo peace accords, four-fifths of the West Bank's water resources were left under Israeli control; the placement of the wall allows it to control 100%. For example, all seven wells belonging to the agricultural village of Jayyous, as well as 95% of its arable farmland, are on the western side of the wall. According to a report in New Scientist, Israel intends to supply West Bank Palestinians with desalinated water from the Mediterranean, under a huge project it intends to undertake, while keeping the lion's share of the West Bank's natural supplies for Israel and its settlements—with the entire project funded by the US. Thus the Palestinians, who sit on top of enough water to be self-sufficient, will be entirely dependent on Israel for water. Israel, in turn, has plans to become a "world water technology superpower." Uri Yogev, chairman of the Waterfronts Israel Water Alliance, was quoted in the Jerusalem Post May 23: "Israel is in a good opening position for handling the international opportunity. The development of new technologies, alongside the growth of the water industry worldwide, will benefit the Israeli water market and create opportunities to develop an export-oriented industry." Yogev estimates that within 10 years, Israel's water industry exports will reach $10 billion, "and then Israel will be considered a world center of developing advanced water industries and technologies."

The 9.5% figure includes the barrier's encirclement of the western side the Jerusalem satellite-settlement of Ma'ale Adumim—which may reach to within 10 kilometers of the Jordan border, effectively cutting off the southern third of the West Bank from the rest, and sealing off East Jerusalem. Israel has proposed digging a tunnel underneath the "E-1 corridor" for the Palestinians, the area it intends to annex to connect Ma'ale Adumim to Jerusalem, linking the southern third of the West Bank with the rest. The Palestinian Authority has made it clear it considers the E-1 plan to be a "red line" which will prevent the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

As of now, the Israeli Committee on Housing Demolitions (ICAHD) reports the bulldozers are not at work in the E-1 area, although settlers are completing a police station on behalf of the Israeli government. Two announced separate sections of the barrier enclosing the Jewish settlements of Ariel and Kedumim will cut off the northern third of the West Bank from the rest—and if Israel retains the road out to the Jordan valley, the West Bank will be effectively cantonized into at least three dis-contiguous sections, with continued Israeli control of Palestinian movement between the sections.

The Jordan Valley

The supposedly dovish Defense Minister, Amir Peretz, the new head of the Labor Party, has approved the expansion of four settlements, Ha'aretz reported on May 21. One of the expansions is to the Jordan Valley settlement of Maskiyot, where the government plans to move settlers evacuated last summer from the hard-line Shirat Hayam settlement in the Gaza Strip. StoptheWall.org reported May 29 that 3000 dunums (850 acres) of Palestinian lands in Wadi al-Maleh are being seized for Maskiyot's expansion, and that 40 farming families are being uprooted. Opinions on both right and left by seasoned observers have tended to doubt Israel will hold onto to much, if any of the Jordan Valley in a final settlement, or unilateral Israeli diktat. Jeff Halper of ICAHD believed it was Ariel Sharon's intention to build up the Jordan Valley and then throw it in as a grand gesture as part of a final "generous offer" to the Palestinian Authority.

The less fettered the access to Jordan, the more likely the state of Jordan can absorb the economic, demographic and political dislocations from what remains of the West Bank—just as Israel would like to see Egypt, with its semi-open border with Gaza, absorb pressures from the Gaza Strip. However, Israel has stepped up the pace of cementing control over the Jordan Valley since the start of the second Intifada. According to Amira Hass writing in Ha'aretz on Feb. 13, the Israeli military issued a March 2005 order banning all but the 50,000 Palestinian residents of the valley, and those working in Jewish settlements, from entering it. Since then, Israel has built permanent checkpoints on the main roads to block access and the IDF is conducting night-time raids to drive unregistered Palestinians out of the restricted area. This consolidation of the valley mirrors then-Defense Minister Yigal Allon's 1967 plan to retain control of area.

Bi-Level Highways, Permanent Checkpoints

The most recently reported plan for the West Bank road system envisions a bi-level system of highways, with Israeli motorists driving above and Palestinians below, for the 20% of West Bank roads used by Israelis. Six of twelve planned interchanges for this system have already been built. In this plan, Palestinians would not be forbidden from traveling on any West Bank roads, but the design would encourage them to use the roads intended for traffic to and from their population centers.

Israel is building 11 permanent checkpoints throughout the West Bank, some designed to be international crossings. The Qalandia checkpoint, which separates Ramallah from East Jerusalem, sports a sign written in Hebrew, Arabic and English, reading "The Hope of Us All," with a picture of a flower. A group of Jewish anti-occupation activists spray-painted "Arbeit Macht Frei" (work brings freedom) on the sign, which the Nazi regime posted on the entrance to the Auschwitz concentration camp. The group, which calls itself, "Jews Against Genocide," also painted "Manifest Destiny" on the sign. US diplomats accepted an Israeli offer to tour the new Qalandia complex, now called "Atarot crossing" by Israel, but European diplomats refused. Along with the permanent crossing Israel built between East Jerusalem and Bethlehem, the Atarot crossing interferes with the free flow of goods and people across the Ramallah-Jerusalem-Bethlehem axis that accounted for approximately 40% of the Palestinian economy five years ago, before the second Intifada erupted.

The northern portion of the separation barrier, from Jenin to Ramallah; the southern portion that divides the Bethlehem area from Israel's Gush Etzion settlement bloc; and the retention of the Jordan Valley, separates the rest of the West Bank from nearly all its arable farmland—thus depriving a future Palestinian state of any ability to be self-sustaining. The barrier has already promoted a migration away from farming areas towards urban centers further from the barrier.

The Industrial Agenda

Included as part of "realignment" is a plan to build industrial zones on the farmland being confiscated from Palestinians. Two years after these plans were announced, not one resident of the encircled city of Qalqilya has accepted "shares" in the zone Israel intends to build on lands belonging to Qalqilya on the other side of the barrier, where Israeli capital can exploit Palestinian labor without Palestinians entering Israel proper. If the idea was to keep the disenfrancised Palestinians from revolting, that may turn out to be a bust—the Erez and Karni industrial zones at the edge of the Gaza Strip are subject to repeated attack by the Palestinian resistance, and Kadima MK (and former prime minister) Shimon Peres announced May 24 that plans for additional industrial zones—to have been run jointly with the Palestinian Authority—on the boundary with Gaza have been cancelled due to security concerns.

That the motivation for the realignment plan is political and not security-related is confirmed by Martin van Creveld, widely considered the dean of Israeli military historians. When this reporter asked if there was any security justification for placing the barrier four miles from the Green Line in Jayyous, Van Creveld replied: "In my view, as an Israeli who is concerned about his country's future, the wall should run along the 1948 border. But better any wall than none."

In his book, Defending Israel: A Controversial Plan Towards Peace (St. Martin's Press, 2004), Van Creveld concludes that "seen from a security point of view, indeed, the entire map of settlement hardly makes any sense at all."

RESOURCES:

"The Choice Is Now," Angela Godfrey, Challenge magazine, May 29
http://electronicIntifada.net/v2/article4750.shtml

"Countdown to Apartheid," Jeff Halper, Counterpunch, May 26
http://www.counterpunch.org/halper05252006.html

"Israel Lays Claim to Palestine's Water," New Scientist, May 27, 2004
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn5037

For a map of the Allon plan, see:
http://www.mideastweb.org/alonplan.htm

See also:

"Bitter Fruits Of Jordan Valley Apartheid,"
by Sarkis Pogossian
WW4 REPORT #118, February 2006
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1533

"Update From Jayyous: Israeli Settlement Seizes Palestinian Farmland,"
by David Bloom
WW4 REPORT #105 December 2004
http://www.ww4report.com/105/palestine/jayyous

"Israel to UN: Drop Dead!"
by David Bloom
WW4 REPORT, #101, August 2004
http://ww3report.com/hague.html

"Israeli army attacks protest, girls school," May 16
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1976

Republished from: www.ww4report.com


The last question is the best after reading all the other ones...

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a109.htm

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq
by James J. David, Brigadier General, USA ret. - Jan 7, 2003

(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations
Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel.

Question Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel.

Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?
Answer: Israel.

Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel.

Question. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel

Question. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.
Answer: Israel

Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel.

Question. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel.

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America?"
Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East is the United States threatening to attack because of fear that it may be a threat to us and to our allies?
Answer: Iraq



The US government, with European urging, has requested that Israel give negotiation of a bilateral agreement with the Palestinian Authority one last shot. If by the end of the year the US agrees with Israel that no "suitable" Palestinian "partner for peace" exists, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's shaky Kadima-led government will continue the process of unilaterally separating Israelis from Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, and probably parts of occupied East Jerusalem. The process is expected to take four years.

During Olmert's recent visit, US President George Bush praised his plan for unilateral separation from the Palestinians as a "bold move" for peace. However, before Olmert came to the US, Israel had to shelve its request for immediate approval for its separation plan, called at the time the "convergence" plan, along with a $10 billion request to finance the resettlement of thousands of settlers from one part of the occupied West Bank to another—that is, inside Israel's yet-to-be completed separation barrier, declared illegal by the International Court of Justice at the Hague in July 2004. According to a May 15 report in the right-wing WorldnetDaily.com by Aaron Klein, the US balked at the price tag—so far.

The Numbers Game

Gideon Levy, writing in Ha'aretz May 28, says the number of settlers who would be removed from the eastern side of the barrier is now at most 40,000, down from the originally announced 70,000, in Olmert's "convergence" plan. The updated plan also has a new euphemism—"realignment." According to the Jerusalem Post on May 19, 70,000 is the number of settlers who currently live on the eastern or "Palestinian" side of the fence, suggesting some 30,000 settlers are to be left in place on the eastern side. These may become enclosed on the western "Israeli" side in extensions of the barrier yet to be announced. This trial balloon was floated before Olmert's DC trip, by his settlements advisor, Kadima party Knesset member (MK) Uzi Keren, who posited in a May 29 Jerusalem Post article that approximately 55 settlements out of 262 total will be beyond the barrier, but only "20-30" will be removed.

There are an estimated 445,000 Israeli settlers—defined as any Israeli citizens living in occupied Palestinian territory, including within the illegally annexed East Jerusalem area—and their number has actually grown since approximately 9,000 were removed from the Gaza Strip last summer. Under the current plan, only 40,000 will actually be moved anywhere, and generally the Kadima-led government says they will be moved to the existing settlement "blocs" on the western side of the barrier—thus still within occupied territory. The Israeli army intends to still operate in the area where settlers are earmarked to be removed.

The Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem lists the number of Israeli government-"approved" settlements (all are illegal under international law) as 152. In addition, there are 105 "illegal" settlement "outposts," according to a report by Israeli government-appointed attorney Talia Sasson. The Jerusalem Post on May 29 said 24 of these "illegal" outposts are slated for evacuation; the fate of the other 81 is to be "reconsidered" under the "realignment" plan. MK Keren said that the "Beit El group" of settlements, which include Ofra and Shilo, currently to the east of the planned route of the barrier, were likely to be included inside the fence. Even without these adjustments, according to B'Tselem, this would enclose 9.5% of the West Bank onto the "Israeli" side of the barrier. This figure does not include the Jordan Valley, itself about one third of the West Bank, but cut off from the rest of the Bank through a series of checkpoints (instead of a formal barrier), and it is unclear what its fate will be. It also does not include Hebron. The Jerusalem Post reported May 26 that Kadima's MK Otniel Schneller, who is involved in formulating the "realignment" plan, proposes to include the Jewish settlements within Hebron, which will be linked up to the nearby settlement of Kiryat Arba: "Hebron and Kiryat Arba are supposed to be part of the Israeli state," said Schneller. 450 Jewish settlers living in the "H2," or Israeli-controlled section of Hebron, have made life near impossible for the 20,000 Palestinian residents of the section, who are being effectively cleansed from the area through settler violence.

Even without Hebron or the Jordan Valley included, B'Tselem says 490,500 Palestinians will be directly affected by the barrier—42 communities, with 245,500 residents, including East Jerusalem, will be enclosed on the Israeli side. Fifty communities, with 244,000 residents, will be surrounded on at least three sides to the east of the barrier.

But the 9.5% figure—or the disingenuous 8% figure that David Makovsky of the Washington Institute for Near East affairs (WINEP) cites, which does not include East Jerusalem, doesn't tell the real story. Makovsky groans in WINEP position papers that the Palestinians will tend to look at the glass as 8% empty, instead of 92% full. The empty part of the glass—even if it ends up being only 8% empty—happens to contain the Palestinians' most valuable farmland, and all of its water resources.

Control of Water

Under the Oslo peace accords, four-fifths of the West Bank's water resources were left under Israeli control; the placement of the wall allows it to control 100%. For example, all seven wells belonging to the agricultural village of Jayyous, as well as 95% of its arable farmland, are on the western side of the wall. According to a report in New Scientist, Israel intends to supply West Bank Palestinians with desalinated water from the Mediterranean, under a huge project it intends to undertake, while keeping the lion's share of the West Bank's natural supplies for Israel and its settlements—with the entire project funded by the US. Thus the Palestinians, who sit on top of enough water to be self-sufficient, will be entirely dependent on Israel for water. Israel, in turn, has plans to become a "world water technology superpower." Uri Yogev, chairman of the Waterfronts Israel Water Alliance, was quoted in the Jerusalem Post May 23: "Israel is in a good opening position for handling the international opportunity. The development of new technologies, alongside the growth of the water industry worldwide, will benefit the Israeli water market and create opportunities to develop an export-oriented industry." Yogev estimates that within 10 years, Israel's water industry exports will reach $10 billion, "and then Israel will be considered a world center of developing advanced water industries and technologies."

The 9.5% figure includes the barrier's encirclement of the western side the Jerusalem satellite-settlement of Ma'ale Adumim—which may reach to within 10 kilometers of the Jordan border, effectively cutting off the southern third of the West Bank from the rest, and sealing off East Jerusalem. Israel has proposed digging a tunnel underneath the "E-1 corridor" for the Palestinians, the area it intends to annex to connect Ma'ale Adumim to Jerusalem, linking the southern third of the West Bank with the rest. The Palestinian Authority has made it clear it considers the E-1 plan to be a "red line" which will prevent the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

As of now, the Israeli Committee on Housing Demolitions (ICAHD) reports the bulldozers are not at work in the E-1 area, although settlers are completing a police station on behalf of the Israeli government. Two announced separate sections of the barrier enclosing the Jewish settlements of Ariel and Kedumim will cut off the northern third of the West Bank from the rest—and if Israel retains the road out to the Jordan valley, the West Bank will be effectively cantonized into at least three dis-contiguous sections, with continued Israeli control of Palestinian movement between the sections.

The Jordan Valley

The supposedly dovish Defense Minister, Amir Peretz, the new head of the Labor Party, has approved the expansion of four settlements, Ha'aretz reported on May 21. One of the expansions is to the Jordan Valley settlement of Maskiyot, where the government plans to move settlers evacuated last summer from the hard-line Shirat Hayam settlement in the Gaza Strip. StoptheWall.org reported May 29 that 3000 dunums (850 acres) of Palestinian lands in Wadi al-Maleh are being seized for Maskiyot's expansion, and that 40 farming families are being uprooted. Opinions on both right and left by seasoned observers have tended to doubt Israel will hold onto to much, if any of the Jordan Valley in a final settlement, or unilateral Israeli diktat. Jeff Halper of ICAHD believed it was Ariel Sharon's intention to build up the Jordan Valley and then throw it in as a grand gesture as part of a final "generous offer" to the Palestinian Authority.

The less fettered the access to Jordan, the more likely the state of Jordan can absorb the economic, demographic and political dislocations from what remains of the West Bank—just as Israel would like to see Egypt, with its semi-open border with Gaza, absorb pressures from the Gaza Strip. However, Israel has stepped up the pace of cementing control over the Jordan Valley since the start of the second Intifada. According to Amira Hass writing in Ha'aretz on Feb. 13, the Israeli military issued a March 2005 order banning all but the 50,000 Palestinian residents of the valley, and those working in Jewish settlements, from entering it. Since then, Israel has built permanent checkpoints on the main roads to block access and the IDF is conducting night-time raids to drive unregistered Palestinians out of the restricted area. This consolidation of the valley mirrors then-Defense Minister Yigal Allon's 1967 plan to retain control of area.

Bi-Level Highways, Permanent Checkpoints

The most recently reported plan for the West Bank road system envisions a bi-level system of highways, with Israeli motorists driving above and Palestinians below, for the 20% of West Bank roads used by Israelis. Six of twelve planned interchanges for this system have already been built. In this plan, Palestinians would not be forbidden from traveling on any West Bank roads, but the design would encourage them to use the roads intended for traffic to and from their population centers.

Israel is building 11 permanent checkpoints throughout the West Bank, some designed to be international crossings. The Qalandia checkpoint, which separates Ramallah from East Jerusalem, sports a sign written in Hebrew, Arabic and English, reading "The Hope of Us All," with a picture of a flower. A group of Jewish anti-occupation activists spray-painted "Arbeit Macht Frei" (work brings freedom) on the sign, which the Nazi regime posted on the entrance to the Auschwitz concentration camp. The group, which calls itself, "Jews Against Genocide," also painted "Manifest Destiny" on the sign. US diplomats accepted an Israeli offer to tour the new Qalandia complex, now called "Atarot crossing" by Israel, but European diplomats refused. Along with the permanent crossing Israel built between East Jerusalem and Bethlehem, the Atarot crossing interferes with the free flow of goods and people across the Ramallah-Jerusalem-Bethlehem axis that accounted for approximately 40% of the Palestinian economy five years ago, before the second Intifada erupted.

The northern portion of the separation barrier, from Jenin to Ramallah; the southern portion that divides the Bethlehem area from Israel's Gush Etzion settlement bloc; and the retention of the Jordan Valley, separates the rest of the West Bank from nearly all its arable farmland—thus depriving a future Palestinian state of any ability to be self-sustaining. The barrier has already promoted a migration away from farming areas towards urban centers further from the barrier.

The Industrial Agenda

Included as part of "realignment" is a plan to build industrial zones on the farmland being confiscated from Palestinians. Two years after these plans were announced, not one resident of the encircled city of Qalqilya has accepted "shares" in the zone Israel intends to build on lands belonging to Qalqilya on the other side of the barrier, where Israeli capital can exploit Palestinian labor without Palestinians entering Israel proper. If the idea was to keep the disenfrancised Palestinians from revolting, that may turn out to be a bust—the Erez and Karni industrial zones at the edge of the Gaza Strip are subject to repeated attack by the Palestinian resistance, and Kadima MK (and former prime minister) Shimon Peres announced May 24 that plans for additional industrial zones—to have been run jointly with the Palestinian Authority—on the boundary with Gaza have been cancelled due to security concerns.

That the motivation for the realignment plan is political and not security-related is confirmed by Martin van Creveld, widely considered the dean of Israeli military historians. When this reporter asked if there was any security justification for placing the barrier four miles from the Green Line in Jayyous, Van Creveld replied: "In my view, as an Israeli who is concerned about his country's future, the wall should run along the 1948 border. But better any wall than none."

In his book, Defending Israel: A Controversial Plan Towards Peace (St. Martin's Press, 2004), Van Creveld concludes that "seen from a security point of view, indeed, the entire map of settlement hardly makes any sense at all."

RESOURCES:

"The Choice Is Now," Angela Godfrey, Challenge magazine, May 29
http://electronicIntifada.net/v2/article4750.shtml

"Countdown to Apartheid," Jeff Halper, Counterpunch, May 26
http://www.counterpunch.org/halper05252006.html

"Israel Lays Claim to Palestine's Water," New Scientist, May 27, 2004
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn5037

For a map of the Allon plan, see:
http://www.mideastweb.org/alonplan.htm

See also:

"Bitter Fruits Of Jordan Valley Apartheid,"
by Sarkis Pogossian
WW4 REPORT #118, February 2006
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1533

"Update From Jayyous: Israeli Settlement Seizes Palestinian Farmland,"
by David Bloom
WW4 REPORT #105 December 2004
http://www.ww4report.com/105/palestine/jayyous

"Israel to UN: Drop Dead!"
by David Bloom
WW4 REPORT, #101, August 2004
http://ww3report.com/hague.html

"Israeli army attacks protest, girls school," May 16
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1976

Republished from: www.ww4report.com
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, yes, I understand the passionate words... everyone has spoken passionate words! I myself have the mouth of a sailor at times, and that's putting it mildly... but you think Israel would agree? Then the burden now rests on Hamas since that concession is asking a lot of Israel and cannot be easily ignored.

Hmmm. Anyone here have any idea how Hamas might respond to such a generous offer?

Ninth Scribe
Since Hamas refuses to accept any Jewish state... They would obviously reject any offer that gives an inch of land to a Jew.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Do they hate Zionists or Jews?
You know, that subject has always confused me too.

Ninth Scribe

Sorry folks, off to work again ~~~~
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:06 PM
BY AN ARAB J. FARAH!

After you read this, you have to wonder why the Palestinians just don't move to Jordan which has plenty of unoccupied lands.

The following was written by an Arab-American journalist, Joseph Farah, who seems to be the lead man in the Internet-based conservative paper, World Net Daily. This article is pretty amazing, given the author's ethnic background.

"I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount. Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising.

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy.

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine.

The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed--before or since--as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem. Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammad ever visited Jerusalem. So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam?

Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It related that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs...." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem.

And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem?

Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos.

Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants give diplomacy and peace keeping a bad name."


PLUS all of the interviews HIRJAH posted are FAKES! Look at the post below mine.
Reply

HeiGou
06-30-2006, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I encourage my soldiers to rape Arabic women and girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."

-Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Me

Does he hate Arabs?
Well he probably does, or did, but this story is a fake. It is not even a good fake. Sharon, of course, did not back then refer to Palestinians as Palestinians. He thought there was no such thing as a Palestinian as they were all Syrians. There is no General Ouze Me in the IDF. Never has been.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Since Hamas refuses to accept any Jewish state... They would obviously reject any offer that gives an inch of land to a Jew.
Really? Because we're talking about one sizable piece of land here. Not a pinch and a sliver... and war isn't exactly getting anyone anywhere. I don't believe they're in a position to be picky enough to turn down a deal like that and if they are going to make a fuss, I'd rather hear it from them.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
BY AN ARAB J. FARAH!

After you read this, you have to wonder why the Palestinians just don't move to Jordan which has plenty of unoccupied lands.

The following was written by an Arab-American journalist, Joseph Farah, who seems to be the lead man in the Internet-based conservative paper, World Net Daily. This article is pretty amazing, given the author's ethnic background.

"I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount. Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising.

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy.

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing. Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem." That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine.

The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed--before or since--as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem. Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammad ever visited Jerusalem. So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam?

Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It related that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs...." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem.

And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem?

Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos.

Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants give diplomacy and peace keeping a bad name."


PLUS all of the interviews HIRJAH posted are FAKES! Look at the post below mine.

sorry not all that possibly is one...but no, not the others as for this article I couldn't take it seriously when I got to the bolded though
Reply

Geronimo
06-30-2006, 08:15 PM
HAMAS Covenant:

Preface: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (A quote by Imam Hassan al Banna)

Article 6: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned..."

Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Really? Because we're talking about one sizable piece of land here. Not a pinch and a sliver... and war isn't exactly getting anyone anywhere. I don't believe they're in a position to be picky enough to turn down a deal like that and if they are going to make a fuss, I'd rather hear it from them.

Ninth Scribe
You would rather hear it from them? They have already said it:

"Hamas will continue to fight Israel until there isn't one Jew left in the Middle East!"
Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal

"Hamas will never make peace with the Jews"
Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal

"The Jewish state is an alien to us. As long as Israel is in control of one inch of Palestine we will fight!"
Hamas political chief Khaled Mashaal
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2006, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
HAMAS Covenant:
Minds can change...

Peace~~~
Reply

Lamaggad
06-30-2006, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
wordofmessiah.org/muslims_4_israel.htm


http://www.geocities.com/compassionplease/IslamIsrael
Mr. Anger Management... how about you correct your signuture first and then come talk about stuff that you don't actually understand.

it's not
الهندوسيه داءما

it's
هندوسية دائما

both doesn't make any sense any way... if you are trying to say Hindus forever, then you should say...

هندوس للأبد


Your welcome in advance :giggling:
Reply

Geronimo
06-30-2006, 08:22 PM
More:

Introduction: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article 7: ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews(not Israel), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew (not Israeli) behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews (I think you get the point)."

Article 28: ... when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women." Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
Reply

Geronimo
06-30-2006, 08:22 PM
More:

Introduction: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article 7: ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews(not Israel), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew (not Israeli) behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews (I think you get the point)."

Article 28: ... when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women." Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
Mr. Anger Management... how about you correct your signuture frist and then come talk about stuff that you don't actually understand.

it's not
الهندوسيه داءما

it's
هندوسية دائما

both doesn't make any sense any way... if you are trying to say Hindus forever, then you should say...

هندوس للأبد


Your welcome in advance :giggling:
Ooops im tryin to learn arabic. thx.
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
sorry not all that possibly is one...but no, not the others as for this article I couldn't take it seriously when I got to the bolded though
I can't edit my post but I'll make it clearer..the post below you says that particular quote is likely to be fake not all the articles...and again you have to reaize that this is possibly a Christian Arab making assumptions about Islamic scripture that he doesn't know, Islamic scholars agree that the building where Muhammad[S][/S]ascended was the domeof the rock in Jerusalem...so its this guy's word against theres

The Orthodox Jewish response to the criticism of the Iranian President
(statement for Al Q'uds Day)


28 October 2005
With the help of the Almighty.

Orthodox Jews the world over, are saddened by the hysteria which has greeted the recent stated desire of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to see a world free of Zionism. This desire is nothing more than a yearning for a better, more peaceful world. It is a hope that with the elimination of Zionism, Jews and Muslims will live in harmony as they have throughout the ages, in Palestine and throughout the world.

It is a dangerous distortion, to see the Presidents words, as indicative of anti-Jewish sentiments. The President was simply re-stating the beliefs and statements of Ayatollah Khomeini, who always emphasized and practiced the respect and protection of Jews and Judaism. The political ideology of Zionism alone was rejected. President Ahmadinejad stressed this distinction by referring only to Zionism, not Judaism or the Jewish people, regardless of whether they reside in Palestine or else were.

We concur!! Orthodox Jews have always prayed and till today, continually pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. As per the teachings of the Torah, the Jewish law, the Jewish people are required to be loyal, upstanding citizens, in all of the countries where-in they reside. They are expressly forbidden to have their own entity or state in any form or configuration, in this Heavenly decreed exile. Furthermore, the exemplification of one-self, with acts of compassion and goodness, is of the essence of Judaism. To subjugate and oppress a people, to steal their land, homes and orchards etc. is of the cardinal sins, of the basics crimes, forbidden by the Torah.

We have long stood together with the suffering Palestinian people in their struggle for self determination and respect. Based on our religious teachings, we believe it is impossible that any lasting peace can be achieved, for so long as the state of Israel exists. It is towards this goal of true reconciliation that religious Jews strive; via Palestinian statehood, so that we can once again reside in harmony and brotherhood.

May we merit to see the fruition of our prayers. Ultimately we pray for the day when all mankind will recognize the One G-d and serve Him in harmony. May this come upon us in the near future. Amen.

Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta International
Jews United Against Zionism
www.nkusa.org
914-262-8342
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:26 PM
First we already know that the NK Jewish sect of Hassids is a sect not accepted by most Jews for there misinterpretauion and not following of many traditions of the Torah.

It has been reported that these 'Orthodox Jews' have chosen many rules in the Torah not to follow, and there credibility is as much as "Jews for Jesus" is...

Far from being mistreated, the Arab population in Israel and in the territories administered by Israel has been freer than the population in any Arab state. Arabs in Israel vote. They elect leaders to the Knesset. They have their own political parties. They have their own newspapers. They have full rights to citizenship. They are free to speak their minds. As an Arab journalist who has spent a good deal of time covering the region, I can tell you there is more freedom for Arabs in Israel than in any Arab state.
-Arab Joseph Farah
Reply

S_87
06-30-2006, 08:28 PM
:sl:

may Allah Subahana wa Ta'ala destroy the black hearted zionists.
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
More:

Introduction: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article 7: ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews(not Israel), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew (not Israeli) behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews (I think you get the point)."

Article 28: ... when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women." Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

so...your indicating that this has to do with recent times? Well, I didn't know that trees talk now a days but hey....
Reply

Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
so...your indicating that this has to do with recent times? Well, I didn't know that trees talk now a days but hey....
That is Hamas's official charter! Yes they are loony... Yes they are terrorists... Yes they are Evil!

format_quote Originally Posted by amani
:sl:

may Allah Subahana wa Ta'ala destroy the black hearted zionists.
More prayers for death. There is a lot of that here. I don't know many religions pray for the death of others.
Reply

Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
First we already know that the NK Jewish sect of Hassids is a sect not accepted by most Jews for there misinterpretauion and not following of many traditions of the Torah.

It has been reported that these 'Orthodox Jews' have chosen many rules in the Torah not to follow, and there credibility is as much as "Jews for Jesus" is...



-Arab Joseph Farah
I know Arabs that went there and said they had trouble getting around to hospitals and such like that, I doubt this is true...Christian Arabs might i add..
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Vishnu
06-30-2006, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
I know Arabs that went there and said they had trouble getting around to hospitals and such like that, I doubt this is true...Christian Arabs might i add..
Wrong. Israel has used Jewish tax payer money to build hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza strip in Palestinian communities.

Woudl you like all the financial reports on this... I will private message them to you.
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Geronimo
06-30-2006, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
so...your indicating that this has to do with recent times? Well, I didn't know that trees talk now a days but hey....
If you can read you would realize this is HAMAS Covenant, charter have you. Last I checked HAMAS is a fairly recent organization.
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Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
Wrong. Israel has used Jewish tax payer money to build hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza strip in Palestinian communities.

Woudl you like all the financial reports on this... I will private message them to you.
go ahead but firs toff, where is the source for this and how reliable is it?
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Hijrah
06-30-2006, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
If you can read you would realize this is HAMAS Covenant, charter have you. Last I checked HAMAS is a fairly recent organization.
yea that's my mistake
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Geronimo
06-30-2006, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
yea that's my mistake
Not a problem
Reply

Panatella
07-01-2006, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
Mr. Anger Management... how about you correct your signuture frist and then come talk about stuff that you don't actually understand.

it's not
الهندوسيه داءما

it's
هندوسية دائما

both doesn't make any sense any way... if you are trying to say Hindus forever, then you should say...

هندوس للأبد


Your welcome in advance :giggling:
So.......this has what to do with the topic?
Reply

SirZubair
07-01-2006, 05:33 AM
IF you two really think you can solve the 'isreal-palestine' issue right here,right now,..then carry on.

if not,..CONSIDER not carrying on :?
Reply

Muezzin
07-01-2006, 03:37 PM
Good God, people! You'd think that after I locked this thread once, you'd learn your lesson and get back on topic. Now, seriously, if you cannot discuss this topic without name-calling, mudslinging, or being otherwise unpleasant while posting off-topic messages, I'll lock the thread, delete the offending posts, and hand out some hefty warnings for multiple off-topic posts.

You have been warned.
Reply

nimrod
07-01-2006, 04:09 PM
I sure hope this gets resolved soon. There will be no good for anyone if it gets worse or drags on.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Lamaggad
07-01-2006, 04:25 PM
Here we go again... peaceful israel is the one who's refusing to stop the attack on Gaza..

Israel had refused the demands of the military wings of Palestinian factions that captured the israeli soldier to release 1000 of detainees and stop the attacks on the Gaza Strip.

Mark Regev spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that there would be NO DEALS. It should be either to release the zionist soldier OR israel will keep attacking till they free him.

so basically what israel is saying, it's "either my way or NO WAY", those people do not want to negotiate, they only negotiate by FIRE, that's all what they can achieve in their lives, they just want to destroy the whole Palestinian state as they do not care about any one but for them selves...
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim
That is Hamas's official charter! Yes they are loony... Yes they are terrorists... Yes they are Evil!
And the zionists who are killing my brothers, raping my sisters, and preventing their kids from going to school are warm-hearted saints!

More prayers for death. There is a lot of that here. I don't know many religions pray for the death of others.
Excuse me? My religion teaches us to be peaceful, but is it wrong to pray for justice?
Reply

Chuck
07-01-2006, 05:02 PM
OR israel will keep attacking till they free him.
And killing innocent civilians, women, and children in the process. They have knocked down the whole city for one soldier.
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HeiGou
07-01-2006, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
And killing innocent civilians, women, and children in the process. They have knocked down the whole city for one soldier.
The Muslims invaded Byzantium over one woman. Find me a Muslim who thinks that was a little extreme. What's your problem here? I mean, really?
Reply

ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 05:23 PM
Israel had refused the demands of the military wings of Palestinian factions that captured the israeli soldier to release 1000 of detainees and stop the attacks on the Gaza Strip.
1000 prisoners for 1 soldier?!? That sounds fair! Why doesn't Israel just trade all of there fighter jets for an ant farm?!? You must be kidding.
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
The Muslims invaded Byzantium over one woman. Find me a Muslim who thinks that was a little extreme. What's your problem here? I mean, really?
Over what reason? and were people massacred like what's happening now?
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HeiGou
07-01-2006, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim_friend
Over what reason? and were people massacred like what's happening now?
I am told that the Byzantines had one Muslim woman captive. So the Arabs invaded. I assume that there was, as usual, massacres and enslavement. I could probably look it up if you liked.
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
I am told that the Byzantines had one Muslim woman captive. So the Arabs invaded. I assume that there was, as usual, massacres and enslavement. I could probably look it up if you liked.
Yes, Please. That was an innocent woman, and this is some criminal soldier. I also think it's wrong of you to make immediate assumptions.
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HeiGou
07-01-2006, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim_friend
Yes, Please. That was an innocent woman, and this is some criminal soldier. I also think it's wrong of you to make immediate assumptions.
How do you know that was an innocent woman? Criminal soldier? He was in Israel proper, not Gaza. He was doing his national service. He wasn't killing anyone. I admit he was a soldier. But even so, he was hardly a criminal. How does it differ?

Explain to me what assumptions you think I have made?
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
How do you know that was an innocent woman? Criminal soldier? He was in Israel proper, not Gaza. He was doing his national service. He wasn't killing anyone. I admit he was a soldier. But even so, he was hardly a criminal. How does it differ?
Right, i simply assumed that the man was a criminal, he might have been peace loving. But more than who the captive is, the real issue is the seriousness of these raids. Israel is killing innocent people because of one person.. and that is clearly wrong.why should other people die, for what someone else has done?

I don't know if the woman in the incident you mentioned, was innocent. It would be good, if you furnish details about this event.

Explain to me what assumptions you think I have made?
Did i in any way sound offensive?.. i was referring to the event involving the woman. In your previous post, you mention 'massacre' and 'enslavement' with regard to it. Clarify me, if i have misunderstood.
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ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 06:31 PM
Musli friend how many people have died from these raids so far... just curious. And could Hamas have prevented it by not kidnapping the soldier who was not in Gaza, but was in real Israel not occupied areas?
Reply

S_87
07-01-2006, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ganeshsikkim


More prayers for death. There is a lot of that here. I don't know many religions pray for the death of others.
yh so what you gonna do about it? theres nothing wrong with saying *may Allah Subahana wa Ta'ala destroy the black hearted zionists.*
and i didnt pray for death. they, like i am, gonna die anyway :rollseyes i prayed for a bunch of criminal black hearted opressive people to be destroyed.
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Musli friend how many people have died from these raids so far... just curious.
I think there have been a few casulaties. but the exact number, i don't know. But do numbers matter? Even if it's one innocent person, it doesn't make a difference.
And could Hamas have prevented it by not kidnapping the soldier who was not in Gaza, but was in real Israel not occupied areas?
Does the kidnapping involve civilians in any way? no.
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ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 06:40 PM
I think there have been a few casulaties. but the exact number, i don't know. But do numbers matter? Even if it's one innocent person, it doesn't make a difference.
I didn't say it as a wise crack comment. I was just curious because I never heard on the news about a death yet, but you said innocent people were dieing. Just curiousity.
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Chuck
07-01-2006, 07:04 PM
The Muslims invaded Byzantium over one woman. Find me a Muslim who thinks that was a little extreme. What's your problem here? I mean, really?
I've have problem if they knocked down the whole city in smoke killing innocent civilians, elderly, women, and children like Israeli military is doing.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-01-2006, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Good God, people! You'd think that after I locked this thread once, you'd learn your lesson and get back on topic. Now, seriously, if you cannot discuss this topic without name-calling, mudslinging, or being otherwise unpleasant while posting off-topic messages, I'll lock the thread, delete the offending posts, and hand out some hefty warnings for multiple off-topic posts.

You have been warned.
Wow! My apologies for hitting so many nerves, but it's the only way I can get all this out in the open where I can see it better, in all it's detail.

Hmm... so it's true then? This all started over name-calling? This one is an infidel. That one is a Kafir. The wound really is that small, once you wash off all the blood. But every family has the one -sshole and everyone has been at different times, in different circumstances. I confess to having an evil temper myself, but I've learned to pick and choose my battles carefully because I know how much energy my rage will cost me. I let a lot of things slide with my family because I'm stuck with them for the ride here. That's just the way it is. Likewise, I'm stuck with people... can't go off too much with them because, well, there's a lot of pots calling the kettles black. All this business of one side accusing the other of the killing of innocent women and children ~ spare me! There isn't a single army, from ANY side that isn't guilty.

I don't care what's been done anymore and, judging from what messages I hear, these wars have gone well beyond the point of reason, all because certain family members disrespected others who were not consulted on matters they felt strongly about. Those family might have otherwise come to an agreement if they were at least heard, but that's not what happened here. Only a handful decided on an issue, and they felt they had the right to speak for everyone. Giggles, that's probably how some women feel when their marriage is arranged by others. No voice.

Well, knowing how silence poisons the soul, I'd rather have to hear the all the ranting and raving it takes to get all the different points and pieces back on the table. It's exhausting, but every mother on this forum knows that when her children fight, she has to hear every child's side of the story.... and the truth is never found in one, it's always somewhere in between them all.

So cough up the pieces, lol. Let's hear every angle of this until we're exhausted and can't think anymore.

First Question: Can you all agree that you are the children of Abraham?

Ninth Scribe
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
I didn't say it as a wise crack comment. I was just curious because I never heard on the news about a death yet, but you said innocent people were dieing. Just curiousity.
Right.
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ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslim_friend
Right.
Ok, great awnser. Are you going to back up your claim of 'innocent people dead' because of this invasion. I would like to know how many have died.
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muslim_friend
07-01-2006, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Ok, great awnser. Are you going to back up your claim of 'innocent people dead' because of this invasion. I would like to know how many have died.
??? ..that was in reference to your first statement. from what i have read on yahoo.. "it's few casualties".. if i knew the number, i would have told you wouldn't I?
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Chuck
07-01-2006, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Musli friend how many people have died from these raids so far... just curious.
Don't know but here is something from fair.org. It is an 2002 article in the style of NYT reporting on Palestinian casualties, but I don't know if current crises has same pattern news reporting.
The main headline on the front page of the New York Times' April 10 final edition was "At Least 8 Killed In Suicide Bombing On A Bus In Israel." The late edition, which is available to more readers, had "13 Israeli Troops Killed in Ambush; Bus Bomb Kills 10," in the 36-point headline size that the paper reserves for what it considers major events.

Six paragraphs into the story, the paper provided this additional information: "More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in Jenin, the Palestinian town that has brought the stiffest resistance to the broad Israeli sweep through the West Bank. Many of the Palestinian dead still lie where they fell."

By its headline choice, the Times suggested that the deaths of 23 Israelis (or eight, in the final edition) are more important than the deaths of 100 Palestinians.

But even those ratios may understate the greater weight that the editors place on Israeli casualties. Beneath the main headline in the late edition were two subheads: "Worst Army Toll" and "A 14th Soldier Is Killed in Separate Attack at a Refugee Camp." The Times might have used one of the subheads to acknowledge the deaths of more than a hundred Palestinians, but evidently noting the death of a single additional Israeli soldier was considered more newsworthy.

Link: http://www.fair.org/activism/nyt-israel-headlines.html
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
And could Hamas have prevented it by not kidnapping the soldier who was not in Gaza, but was in real Israel not occupied areas?
Other side can argue that Israel's govt. could have prevented it by not shelling and killing civilians on beach. Then one side will say they started the killing first and the other would say no they started it first... he said she said thing is not the solution or not the right thing at all. Targeted assassinations, suicide bombings among other forms of violence, and intentionally imposed economic hardships and other practices that make everyday life for any people difficult, even unbearable... all should be equally condemned and stopped.
Reply

Muezzin
07-01-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Wow! My apologies for hitting so many nerves, but it's the only way I can get all this out in the open where I can see it better, in all it's detail.
Let me preface this by saying my message was not in reference to any particular member, only to the fact that the messages on this thread seem to have heavilly deviated from the original topic.

You in particular didn't hit any of my nerves with what you said. I was just very miffed at the fact that a lot of your posts on this particular thread do not have much to do with the topic at hand. Others reacted by insulting you, which also has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am tired of deleting tangenital posts. My apologies if I caused any upset.
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ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Other side can argue that Israel's govt. could have prevented it by not shelling and killing civilians on beach.
True, but Hamas could have prevented it by not shooting Kassam Rockets at Sderot Israel. We can play this game of going back and forth forever, but that won't stop the violence now, will it?
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Chuck
07-01-2006, 07:52 PM
Hi there sister,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
First Question: Can you all agree that you are the children of Abraham?
Yes, and we are all equal with equal rights. Read the following article, and I've the same opinion as Mr. Ladah although he is a Christian and I'm Muslim. Anyhow read his article, it explains my point very clearly http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:...n&ct=clnk&cd=1
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Chuck
07-01-2006, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
True, but Hamas could have prevented it by not shooting Kassam Rockets at Sderot Israel. We can play this game of going back and forth forever, but that won't stop the violence now, will it?
Yup that's way I said: "he said she said thing is not the solution or the right thing. Targeted assassinations, suicide bombings among other forms of violence, and intentionally imposed economic hardships and other practices that make everyday life for any people difficult, even unbearable... all should be equally condemned and stopped."
Reply

Lamaggad
07-02-2006, 06:02 AM
as usual, more chaos by the zionist israeli military, they have destroyed Al-Arkam SCHOOL that was built by Hamas for the CHILDREN...

what the school has to do with the zionist soldier who was arrested?!?! did the students arrested him by any chance!? do they have bombs in the school or something?!?! why did they destroy the school?!?! what kind of war is this...

that is so unacceptable and israel will be responsible for the crap that they are doing to the Palestinians children...

that is a place to learn and it's all what is left for them.. and look what the zionist terrorists are doing.. having a cold war even with kids...
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Ninth_Scribe
07-02-2006, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You in particular didn't hit any of my nerves with what you said. I was just very miffed at the fact that a lot of your posts on this particular thread do not have much to do with the topic at hand. Others reacted by insulting you, which also has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am tired of deleting tangenital posts. My apologies if I caused any upset.
Understood and my apologies, but I couldn't help but notice that these isolated incidents are deeply rooted in others, so I didn't really consider them unrelated. Every time I try to learn something on this forum, I have to play chase with all the others issues that are tied up in this one or that... and the name-calling that follows. I don't mind that so much because I have to admit, I'm a stranger here and equally... strange. Will can the discussion and go over what came out of the pages of this thread.

Ninth Scribe
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HeiGou
07-02-2006, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
as usual, more chaos by the zionist israeli military, they have destroyed Al-Arkam SCHOOL that was built by Hamas for the CHILDREN...

what the school has to do with the zionist soldier who was arrested?!?! did the students arrested him by any chance!? do they have bombs in the school or something?!?! why did they destroy the school?!?! what kind of war is this...
First of all, no Israeli soldier has been arrested. He has been kidnapped. He was kidnapped in Israel and taken to Gaza to be exact. Second, the school was built by Hamas. Isn't it obvious that is the connection? Hamas kidnaps a soldier, Israel attacks Hamas-related targets.

that is so unacceptable and israel will be responsible for the crap that they are doing to the Palestinians children...

that is a place to learn and it's all what is left for them.. and look what the zionist terrorists are doing.. having a cold war even with kids...
This is unacceptable? What are they doing to Palestinian children? I assume that none were killed or you would have complained about it. They destroyed some buildings. It does not look too cold t ome, it looks like a real war, but where were you when Hamas started attacking children? If you condemn the IDF for destroying a school, where were you when Hamas murdered children? This is a list of those killed in the June 1 Dolphinarium suicide bombing by a Hamas terrorist,

* Maria Tagiltseva, 14
* Yevgeniya Dorfman, 15
* Raisa Nemirovskaya, 15
* Yulia Sklyanik, 15
* Ana Kazachkova, 15
* Katherine Kastinyada, 15
* Irina Nepomnyashaya, 16
* Mariana Medvedenko, 16
* Yulia Nalimova, 16
* Liana Saakyan, 16
* Marina Berkovskaya, 17
* Simona Rudina, 17
* Alexei Lupalo, 17
* Yelena Nalimova, 18
* Irina Osadchaya, 18
* Ilya Gutman, 19
* Sergei Panchenko, 20
* Roman Dzhanashvili, 21
* Diaz Nurmanov, 21
* Jan Bloom, 25
* Uri Shachar, 32

Are these children somehow less child-like than the ones that were not killed in Gaza? And it is not just a Hamas thing, Here are the names of 21 students who were killed at the Ma'alot High School massacre: Ilana Turgeman, Rachel Aputa, Yocheved Mazoz, Sarah Ben-Shim'on, Yona Sabag, Yafa Cohen, Shoshana Cohen, Michal Sitrok, Malka Amrosy, Aviva Saada, Yocheved Diyi, Yaakov Levi, Yaakov Kabla, Rina Cohen, Ilana Ne'eman, Sarah Madar, Tamar Dahan, Sarah Sofer, Lili Morad, David Madar, Yehudit Madar. Care to condemn that attack too?

No one is innocent in this. Both sides kill civilians. The only real distinction here is that Israel rarely does and does not usually intend to.
Reply

Woodrow
07-02-2006, 06:37 PM
There has been too much killing on both sides. The solution is complex in its simplicity. Both, sides just need to stop killing.

The problem is neither side wants to be the first to stop killing, out of fear it will seen as surrendering.

What concessions can or should be made to preserve the life of one child. Which side will be brave enough and big enough to stop the killing today?
Reply

Panatella
07-02-2006, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
There has been too much killing on both sides. The solution is complex in its simplicity. Both, sides just need to stop killing.

The problem is neither side wants to be the first to stop killing, out of fear it will seen as surrendering.

What concessions can or should be made to preserve the life of one child. Which side will be brave enough and big enough to stop the killing today?
Excellent post. One word. Pride. Children die because some people on both sides are too stubborn with pride.
Reply

Chuck
07-02-2006, 09:06 PM
What concessions can or should be made to preserve the life of one child. Which side will be brave enough and big enough to stop the killing today?
I've given up on this thought, but I've hope in Allah so I pray.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-04-2006, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Excellent post. One word. Pride. Children die because some people on both sides are too stubborn with pride.
Could be the consessions that were offered were only offered by some, to some, and not all are satisfied. It's not that the consessions themselves can't be made, but perhaps to some, they have yet to be offered?

I have to least this forum for awhile, but thank you all for your enlightenments.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

SirZubair
07-04-2006, 06:05 PM
Everybody,Please consider downloading my signature (The shaykh hamza yusuf lecture) Before carrying on with this discussion.

Wa'salaam.
Reply

Ghazi
07-04-2006, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Everybody,Please consider downloading my signature (The shaykh hamza yusuf lecture) Before carrying on with this discussion.

Wa'salaam.
:sl:

I've listened to it, he makes good points but again like others doesn't address the issue only condem which is getting old.
Reply

SirZubair
07-04-2006, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

I've listened to it, he makes good points but again like others doesn't address the issue only condem which is getting old.
Condemning isnt 'old' until the condemned actions have stopped.

He hasnt gone into depth about the Palestine issue,but in the audio,he has addressed it.

Wa'salaam. :)
Reply

SirZubair
07-04-2006, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Lol, I downloaded the file, but nowhere did you say I have to listen to it :p
:p its your choice,listen to it if you want to,ignore it if you want to :p

As the saying goes " Ghoray ko kooway kai paas la saktai ho,magaar oous ko paani nahi pillah saktai" :p
Reply

Ghazi
07-04-2006, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Condemning isnt 'old' until the condemned actions have stopped.

He hasnt gone into depth about the Palestine issue,but in the audio,he has addressed it.

Wa'salaam. :)
:sl:

Basicly it comes down to one thing I'll use my self as an example, about two years ago I'd be more worried about how my love life is going or what to do on saturday night, but Mash'Allah allah has guided me back to the deen and if this time two years ago you would have asked me I'd be sitting infront of a pc discussing 'world affairs' I would've laughed similar to this-->;D. Anyway 18
years of my life and not one person has sat down with me and explained to me anything relating to 'Jihad' and this is dangerous are brothers who commit these un-islamic actions are mostly youth who have a urge for a 'shuhadaa' but due to lack of knowladge they get minipulated by those who twist the deen, what I find funny how easy shieks get up and condem when they don't teach rules of jihad thats the same as me telling a revert to prey without telling him the rules then acting shocked and condeming when he does it wrong, the solution the scholars need to teach the ummah jihad and take the youth under their wing and protect them from 'extremism' and help them attain what they seek in ways the quran and sunnah are agreed upon.
Reply

SirZubair
07-04-2006, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

Basicly it comes down to one thing I'll use my self as an example, about two years ago I'd be more worried about how my love life is going or what to do on saturday night, but Mash'Allah allah has guided me back to the deen and if this time two years ago you would have asked me I'd be sitting infront of a pc discussing 'world affairs' I would've laughed similar to this-->;D. Anyway 18
years of my life and not one person has sat down with me and explained to me anything relating to 'Jihad' and this is dangerous are brothers who commit these un-islamic actions are mostly youth who have a urge for a 'shuhadaa' but due to lack of knowladge they get minipulated by those who twist the deen, what I find funny how easy shieks get up and condem when they don't teach rules of jihad thats the same as me telling a revert to prey without telling him the rules then acting shocked and condeming when he does it wrong, the solution the scholars need to teach the ummah jihad and take the youth under their wing and protect them from 'extremism' and help them attain what they seek in ways the quran and sunnah are agreed
upon.
Understanding Jihad in Islam | By: Hamza Yusuf



What Are We Doing With Our Lives? | By: Hamza Yusuf



What We Should Be Teaching Our Children? | By: Imam Zaid Shakir

Community Advice | By: Hamza Yusuf



Give and Take for Gods Sake | By: Hamza Yusuf


For more Free downloadable audios,visit :

http://www.zaytuna.org/

Shaykh hamza yusuf has covered alot of topics,at the end of the day,it is the responsibility of the Seeker-of-knowledge to get out there and find the good shaykhs,learn the sacred knowledge. We cant expect knowledge to fall on our laps as we sit on a forum :p

(No offence akhi,im not saying you anything as such,im speaking generally)

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

p.s Check out those Audios :) i hope they all work.
Reply

Ghazi
07-04-2006, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Understanding Jihad in Islam | By: Hamza Yusuf



What Are We Doing With Our Lives? | By: Hamza Yusuf



What We Should Be Teaching Our Children? | By: Imam Zaid Shakir

Community Advice | By: Hamza Yusuf



Give and Take for Gods Sake | By: Hamza Yusuf


For more Free downloadable audios,visit :

http://www.zaytuna.org/

Shaykh hamza yusuf has covered alot of topics,at the end of the day,it is the responsibility of the Seeker-of-knowledge to get out there and find the good shaykhs,learn the sacred knowledge. We cant expect knowledge to fall on our laps as we sit on a forum :p

(No offence akhi,im not saying you anything as such,im speaking generally)

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

p.s Check out those Audios :) i hope they all work.

:sl:

No disrespect to shiek Hamza Yusuf and I don't mean this in an insulting way but I'd like to comment on the first lecture which is highlighted, sheiks seem to go off-topic too much and don't really answer any questions as a youth this is one of the reason I know many stay away from the deen as the speakers often don't get to the point, in that lecture he makes good points but doesn't hit the nail on the head as explaining "what to do and not do" this is a problem some imams have got but were all not perfect so may allah bless him in his knowladge.
Reply

SirZubair
07-05-2006, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

No disrespect to shiek Hamza Yusuf and I don't mean this in an insulting way but I'd like to comment on the first lecture which is highlighted, sheiks seem to go off-topic too much and don't really answer any questions as a youth this is one of the reason I know many stay away from the deen as the speakers often don't get to the point, in that lecture he makes good points but doesn't hit the nail on the head as explaining "what to do and not do" this is a problem some imams have got but were all not perfect so may allah bless him in his knowladge.
Fair enough,i can respect your point of view.

The way i look at it,he goes into-depth with his explanations (which you have labeled as 'off-topic'),and he gives examples of what he is talking about,..i find that method of teaching better than what alot of shaykhs do "THAT IS BI'DAH!" "THAT IS HARAM!" "DON'T DO IT!" with no explanations whatsoever,and whenever they are questioned,the response is "WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF THE QURAN AND SUNNAH!"

Don't get me wrong,im not bagging others shaykhs,maybe their teachings suit others,but its not my cup of tea.

Anyway,before i go waaaaaaaay-offtopic,..i'll stop.

Once again,everyone,please,make an effort,download those lectures and listen to them when you have the time. And please,visit the Zaytuna institute website :)

Wa'salaam.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
07-21-2006, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Israel is searching for a missing soldier.
Funny how you say you're 'searching' for a missing soldier. Even funnier still would be if he dies by your own rocket blasts. But what really has me ROFLMAO is the fact that Zarqawi was called a terrorist because he "indiscriminantly killed people" (they didn't seem to understand what he meant when he defined his rules of engagement concerning targets as: Americans... and ANYONE who helps them)- so what's Israel's excuse for the civilian body count? I can't wait to hear this!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Trumble
07-21-2006, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
One word. Pride. Children die because some people on both sides are too stubborn with pride.

So true. :cry:
Reply

nennar
07-31-2006, 08:52 PM
so the native americans should do what the jews did and get their land back!??????? are you stupid?????????? no no no no please tell me how these poor indians(who live like the palistinians) should do that??????????? please tell me that...........ganeshsikkim... tell me that
Reply

Geronimo
07-31-2006, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
so the native americans should do what the jews did and get their land back!??????? are you stupid?????????? no no no no please tell me how these poor indians(who live like the palistinians) should do that??????????? please tell me that...........ganeshsikkim... tell me that
Actually I live pretty well. Nice paying job, beautiful wife, 2 kids, nice home, 2 cars, so I guess us Native Americans don't have it so bad.
Reply

nennar
07-31-2006, 09:06 PM
????????????? Good For You??????????????????????
Reply

Geronimo
07-31-2006, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
????????????? Good For You??????????????????????
Just showing your sterotype of us Native Americans is outdated.
Reply

Keltoi
07-31-2006, 10:01 PM
The stereotype of the poor stricken Native American living on a desolate reservation in poverty and despair is indeed an outdated one. I too live a rather prosperous and happy life.
Reply

dishdash
08-01-2006, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
Yes, exactly
30 Facts About Isreal
Whilst there are some in there that ARE real, such as the car plates, you should provide reliable sources for ALL of the points or withdraw it. HEarsay and wishful thinking are no substitute for the facts, no matter how angry you are.
Reply

dishdash
08-01-2006, 12:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The stereotype of the poor stricken Native American living on a desolate reservation in poverty and despair is indeed an outdated one. I too live a rather prosperous and happy life.
Hahaha! Alhamdulilah! Still the stereotype of alcoholic trailerpark wannabe casino-owners is at least better than the one of bare-chested fellows running around shouting 'woop woop' trying to scalp a settler with one hand and shoot a buffalo with a bow in the other... You've come a long way in the media hey?! Ahhhh! Only in America! Allah bless America!
Reply

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