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yoke
07-02-2006, 08:00 AM
I would like to start off by using a quote from the thread the profound teachings of Mohammad "The Prophet said: 'The cure for ignorance is to question.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)"

If you look at any of the attributes of god according to Islamic teaching(or any other religious teaching) you will come to the conclusion that there is no god if you are so sure of your faith then tell me an attribute of your god and i will show you what i mean if you don't then i have won the debate.
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Malaikah
07-02-2006, 08:01 AM
ok then.

God is the Most Merciful.
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yoke
07-02-2006, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
ok then.

God is the Most Merciful.
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for. Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful. That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
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Malaikah
07-02-2006, 08:31 AM
so youre saying that humans have the capacity to be more merciful than god? :?
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yoke
07-02-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
so youre saying that humans have the capacity to be more merciful than god? :?
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
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Malaikah
07-02-2006, 08:45 AM
Not really.

Example. It is in the woman's nature to be merciful to her children, especially when they are just babies. And thats something that you see with most women. Given that its so common, i would suggest that it is in womens nature to be merciful to their young children, rather than a choice that they must make.
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yoke
07-02-2006, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Not really.

Example. It is in the woman's nature to be merciful to her children, especially when they are just babies. And thats something that you see with most women. Given that its so common, i would suggest that it is in womens nature to be merciful to their young children, rather than a choice that they must make.
We all know that not every woman is merciful to their children so you cannot say that women are merciful. It is in a woman's genes to be merciful to her children for a reason which is explained by evolution but it is not a fixed attribute. But you are getting of the topic we are not talking about the nature of women. So what you are saying also is proof that God is not merciful and that god would have to have the same nature as a woman.
An attribute of god is something that is meant to be fixed and is the essence of its nature and this is the reason that there cannot be a god.
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أحمد
07-02-2006, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
It would be sensible to start off any logical or even illogical argument (like this one) by looking into the concept (understanding) of God.

It is firstly irrational to say that using an attribute of God such as Merciful to be against the existence of God. The problem here is that you are taking it against yourself (intellectually) that you do not have the capacity to keep the idea of God out of your head, nor can you deny it so easily. It is like an allergic reaction, when the body becomes over-protective. You need to ask more and try to argue less, until you understand enough to actually argue for/against it.
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aamirsaab
07-02-2006, 09:21 AM
:sl:
God is the creator of every thing.

Originally Posted by yoke
No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist
So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.
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askanalim
07-02-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
If thats your level of debate go and find some children to debate with.
And what a very great scholar you must be to make such a remark. I can't see these discussions being solved by themselves. If denial of God All-Mighty has taken away your ability to communicate with others in a decent manner; it is best for you to say nothing. For those who deny God are deaf, dumb and blind. They have no sense.
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yoke
07-02-2006, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
God is the creator of every thing..
This is also impossible to be true or else god would have created itself.


So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.[/QUOTE]

By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist . I am not talking about human existence
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yoke
07-02-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by askanalim
And what a very great scholar you must be to make such a remark. I can't see these discussions being solved by themselves. If denial of God All-Mighty has taken away your ability to communicate with others in a decent manner; it is best for you to say nothing. For those who deny God are deaf, dumb and blind. They have no sense.

If all you can do is insult reason and truth. go and play with the other children
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aamirsaab
07-02-2006, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
This is also impossible to be true or else god would have created itself.
That is a statement that only God would have the answer to.

By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist.
Elaborate.
I am not talking about human existence
I was giving an example to show you that your statement was flawed. I used a human example due to the fact that it is universally accepted.
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Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 09:40 AM
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for.
This has nothing to do with it. you claimed you were going to question the posibility of a notion of God, rather then question his actual existance. Wheter he exists or not is a totally difrent subject. And for argument's sake, even if he doesn't exist that still wouldn't necesairly make the notion of God flawed or contradicting.

Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful.
First of all he is the most merciful, not the ever mercifull. There's a difrence inbetween those. One implies that he is by comparison the most mercifull, whereas teh other implies that he is mercifull in every single occasion. The last one isn't correct, some people will be thrown in Hell.

That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
God is omnipotent. He has the capacity to be un-mercifull, but he chooses not to be. Therefor he is -by his own choice- the most mercifull. There's nothing contradicting by that. God Is also the all-knowing. That means he anticipates everything and will therefor not suddenly "change his mind" as there will be no new information forcing him to change opinions. In fact he isn't even bound to the dimension of time so he can witness present, past and future simultaniously. So that means he is consequent. That means that when he makes a choice, he sticks with it. So even if he has the posibility to be less mercifull then others, he waves that capacity and decides not to be as such.

For other charesteristics of Allah (s.w.t.) I shall refer you to the following link. It are allah's 99 names by which he is refered to in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. It is teh only thing we know about what Allah is like.
http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html


No i am saying that to say god has any attributes is evidence that god does not exist . No being can be merciful you can show mercy but it is impossible to be merciful. As you can only be merciful if you also have the choice of not being merciful.
Well first of al Allah is the most mercifull, not the ever-mercifull his merci will not save every single soul from hell as he will throw some people in Hell
But even then, on what base do you claim a deity can not have such capacitys? If you were to say a human being cannot have them I would agree. But God is not a human being. you're saying God cannot have certain capacitys by comparing it to human capacitys. Newsflash: humans are far from being deities!
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for. Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful. That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for.

I don't know what comes to your mind when you think 'Faith', but the arabic word is 'Aqeedah', which comes from 'I'3tiqaad' which means belief, and it's different to 'I think', (conjecture/thoughts/speculation is 'dhann').

Believing doesn't impose the conditiont hat there has to be no evidence... when you find footprints of a well known thief (yeh weird xample), you believe that that the thief was around.. based on the evidence you see.

So our belief in Allah/God isn't baseless, Allah talks to us in the Quran and commands us to contemplate his creation and come to the conclusion ourselves that he must exist.

Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful.

I recommend you read the books of creed "aqeedah" before you tangle yourself in these discussions, in the chapter of 'asma wasifat' (names and attributes of God).. there's a very well established principle "The Similarity is only in names, but the application of these names is beyond our perception". So when we say Allah is merciful, he is merciful, in a manner that we can not comprehend, beyond our senses.

And Allah is a being.. but a being different to what we percieve because he is beyond our limits... Jesus refers to Allah as 'yourself', in teh last verses of surat al-maida (when Allah asks Jesus 'Did you really tell your people to worship yourself as a partner to me?' Jesus replies "You know what is in myself, but i don't knwo what is in yourself, you know that i didn't say that to my people").

That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.

Allah is not evil, he is just, and his punishments can be severe (veeeeery severe), but he never afflicts anyone with any punishment without them being warned about their actions and teh consequence of it...

Read into the naems and attribute sof Allah and then come back to us... a good start might be books of aqeedah (creed) written by Ibn Taymiyah.. (im pretty sure there's translations somewhere out there)

This Sounds like philosophy to me...
sorry i didnt hav tiem to read all the other replies, im sure they where pretty good.. ill read it later, yeh cheese's piont also makes sense... just keep in midn that the attributes are only similar in their name, their application, or the way they are carried out is just beyond our scope, the mind just boggles.

enjoy
all the best
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askanalim
07-02-2006, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
This is also impossible to be true or else god would have created itself.


So, by that logic, saying anyone has an attribute means that they do not exist. I have intelligence - therefore, by me saying this, I disprove my existence but in doing so I must exist in order to make the statement, thus your argument is flawed.
By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist . I am not talking about human existence[/QUOTE]

You are talking about either a static existence or an existence of chaos. When you look at what Allah has created, you see only a fraction of what is there; you only see what, don't see why. You see how it came about, but only a little. You see a big bang, but you do not see what triggered it. You see a balance, but do not understand what has held it. You (may) know that 90% of the known universe is dark matter, still not understood by scientists, yet even without scienctist knowing such a small part of the universe; you claim to provide a definate answer to the existence of God. If you can do what you claim, then please do take over all the worlds science industries at least and solve their problems first.
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afriend
07-02-2006, 09:52 AM
LOL;D^

This is just another half baked concept....How can you tell that there is no God from his attributes? It doesn't really make sense.

Allah is the giver of life.

You were nothing, and he created you. Can you say that it 'just' came into being...'All of a sudden'?

How can that be?
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أحمد
07-02-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
If all you can do is insult reason and truth. go and play with the other children
:sl:

I did not see any point of wasting time in answering your stupidity, but this is just posting junk. I doubt very much that any Muslim would sit around reading what you have to say about Muslims scholars. If you are so desperate to play, do it yourself. If you need to see a doctor, you can do so; if you need help in finding a doctor; I'm sure people around this forum can help you.

I requestthe moderators or administrators to do something about this.

:w:
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 09:54 AM
^^ Bro Ahmed, i agree, but you know what... if we close the thread he'll claim it a victory.. it's not hard to see through the brain-junk... so we'll putup till its sorted inshalah ta'3ala.. :)

tc mate
salams
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afriend
07-02-2006, 09:54 AM
He wants to know, so let's help him find his way....We can't just ignore him.
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askanalim
07-02-2006, 09:56 AM
This statement was frmo yoke, I accidentally deleted the first quote box, but I cannot edit my post.
Originally Posted by yoke
By logic god can not have an attribute and therefore cannot exist . I am not talking about human existence
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Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:03 AM
You (may) know that 90% of the known universe is dark matter, still not understood by scientists, yet even without scienctist knowing such a small part of the universe; problems first.
At the risk of being completely off-topic.
90%
Where did you get that?
Wouldn't that imply that our universe would colaps due to the imense gravity?

source:
Extract out of Stephen hawkin's: "A brief history of time"
But which Friedmann model describes our universe? Will the universe eventually stop expanding and start contracting, or will it expand forever? To answer this question we need to know the present rate of expansion of the universe and its present average density. If the density is less than a certain critical value, determined by the rate of expansion, the gravitational attraction will be too weak to halt the expansion. If the density is greater than the critical value, gravity will stop the expansion at some time in the future and cause the universe to recollapse.
We can determine the present rate of expansion by measuring the velocities at which other galaxies are moving away from us, using the Doppler effect. This can be done very accurately. However, the distances to the galaxies are not very well known because we can only measure them indirectly. So all we know is that the universe is expanding by between 5 percent and 10 percent every thousand million years. However, our uncertainty about the present average density of the universe is even greater. If we add up the masses of all the stars that we can see in our galaxy and other galaxies, the total is less than one hundredth of the amount required to halt the expansion of the universe, even for the lowest estimate of the rate of expansion. Our galaxy and other galaxies, however, must contain a large amount of “dark matter” that we cannot see directly, but which we know must be there because of the influence of its gravitational attraction on the orbits of stars in the galaxies. Moreover, most galaxies are found in clusters, and we can similarly infer the presence of yet more dark matter in between the galaxies in these clusters by its effect on the motion of the galaxies. When we add up all this dark matter, we still get only about one tenth of the amount required to halt the expansion. However, we cannot exclude the possibility that there might be some other form of matter, distributed almost uniformly throughout the universe, that we have not yet detected and that might still raise the average density of the universe up to the critical value needed to halt the expansion. The present evidence therefore suggests that the universe will probably expand forever.
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أحمد
07-02-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by steve
At the risk of being completely off-topic.
90%
Where did you get that?
Wouldn't that imply that our universe would colaps due to the imense gravity?

source:
Extract out of Stephen hawkin's: "A brief history of time"
But which Friedmann model describes our universe? Will the universe eventually stop expanding and start contracting, or will it expand forever? To answer this question we need to know the present rate of expansion of the universe and its present average density. If the density is less than a certain critical value, determined by the rate of expansion, the gravitational attraction will be too weak to halt the expansion. If the density is greater than the critical value, gravity will stop the expansion at some time in the future and cause the universe to recollapse.
We can determine the present rate of expansion by measuring the velocities at which other galaxies are moving away from us, using the Doppler effect. This can be done very accurately. However, the distances to the galaxies are not very well known because we can only measure them indirectly. So all we know is that the universe is expanding by between 5 percent and 10 percent every thousand million years. However, our uncertainty about the present average density of the universe is even greater. If we add up the masses of all the stars that we can see in our galaxy and other galaxies, the total is less than one hundredth of the amount required to halt the expansion of the universe, even for the lowest estimate of the rate of expansion. Our galaxy and other galaxies, however, must contain a large amount of “dark matter” that we cannot see directly, but which we know must be there because of the influence of its gravitational attraction on the orbits of stars in the galaxies. Moreover, most galaxies are found in clusters, and we can similarly infer the presence of yet more dark matter in between the galaxies in these clusters by its effect on the motion of the galaxies. When we add up all this dark matter, we still get only about one tenth of the amount required to halt the expansion. However, we cannot exclude the possibility that there might be some other form of matter, distributed almost uniformly throughout the universe, that we have not yet detected and that might still raise the average density of the universe up to the critical value needed to halt the expansion. The present evidence therefore suggests that the universe will probably expand forever.
:sl:

I think he may have got it from: http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...rk_matter.html

:w:
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:07 AM
Ohh would you look at that, a science lesson.....

Where is Yoke? What's his views on the point that I made?
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yoke
07-02-2006, 10:08 AM
I do not need to add anything anything else no one has disproven what i have already said.
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:08 AM
yes we have...Add your view to my point :)

Don't be a sad loser now.
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:09 AM
I do not need to add anything anything else no one has disproven what i have already said.
wat do u mean, giv us the xact points u think hav not been refuted yet n we'll deal with those...

n idea might be to write in dot pionts, or line by line refutation... that way we will be flipping everything under the sun.


ps: ur having a bad day with reps..
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Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:13 AM
Oh ok I see where I got thrown off. I'm not sure but I think what was meanth here was:
Dark matter makes up about 90 percent of the universe’s total matter.
But not:
Dark matter makes up about 90 percent of the universe's total existance. .

I do not need to add anything anything else no one has disproven what i have already said.
Yoke, be a man. Eithere defend your point, admit your error or if those two are to hard at least remain silent.
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yoke
07-02-2006, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by Iqram
yes we have...Add your view to my point :)

Don't be a sad loser now.
re read what i have said it covers your point.
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
re read what i have said it covers your point.
re-read what i said too.. it might help solving ur issue
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Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
re read what i have said it covers your point.
I can' speak for iqram's, but I know you havn't cover my points :)
so give it a shot, even if you do risk repeating yourself, shwo us where we're wrong.
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yoke
07-02-2006, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by steve
Oh ok I see where I got thrown off. I'm not sure but I think what was meanth here was:
Dark matter makes up about 90 percent of the universe’s total matter.
But not:
Dark matter makes up about 90 percent of the universe's total existance. .


Yoke, be a man. Eithere defend your point or admit your error.

re read what i said
The reality that there is no god is very easy to work out and pretentious rebuttal of this is meaningless and stupid.
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
re read what i said
The reality that there is no god is very easy to work out and pretentious rebuttal of this is meaningless and stupid.
lol geez that's a great way to make your point :giggling: lol what reality are you referring to, we could hav labelled ur blabber as pretentious arguments... but we didnt

perhaps you can have the dignity to do a line by line refutation of our stuff.. yeh i know it might be painful (and perhaps embaressing), but you asked for it...
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Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
re read what i said
The reality that there is no god is very easy to work and pretentious rebuttal of this is meaningless and stupid.
No it isn't
You are basing yourself on the ASSUMPTION there is no God, just as we base ourself on the ASSUMPTION that there is one. But one assumption cannot be proven more likely over the other. In teh end everybody follows his own paradigm. But you're getting of topic. It was your intention to show that some of the notions of God were flawed by defenition. You failed to show this (or at least, you fail to anser our responses to these vain attempts of you); so you suddenly change direction and claim that "no God" is a starting point for logical reasoning. Well if you start with the assumption that there is no god, you're very likely to end up with the proof that there is no god, but you're proof is then flawed because it's circular.

I'm still waiting for you're response to my earlyer comments...
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DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
First of all you are saying "God is" There is no evidence that is true or else there would be no purpose of having faith. Faith is believing something which there is no evidence for. Then you have to ask what is "GOD" you are saying god is the most merciful so that implies it is a being that has decided to be merciful you can only be merciful if you can also be not merciful. That means the essence of god is not fixed so god also has the potential to be evil and must have an evil side or god cannot be merciful which leads to the conclusion and god cannot be the most merciful.


if you are convinced on this then why bother telling us?.. i mean you could have the LIFE you want to.. dancing at night drinking, drugs ... anything..
why try to change OUR minds ? i mean dont you believe that if we die we will just become bones?
is it maybe because you are unsure yourself ? maybe you do have a sense of faith but your just to arrogant to give in to it ?
and are trying to get some ''company'' because you feel lonely? i mean .... you must be think why is everyone believing in God? is it me who is wrong ? at this moment maybe you are gaining faith? and hey fellow man or jinn or what ever maybe ou should join us instead of trying to let US join U !

offense .. peace!

:sl: :) :thankyou:
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DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:28 AM
i thinks so two

sorry i was in te wrong thread
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khal_75
07-02-2006, 10:28 AM
:sl: sum strainj stuff around 'ere. da ishu iznt az eezi az pokin ur hed in2 da sky and tryin 2 look 4 god lyk dat. u av 2 do much mor. anywayz allah can gyd hu eva he wants
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------
07-02-2006, 10:29 AM
The reality that there is no god is very easy to work out
Are you ever going to get tired of this useless, baseless "assumption"?
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by khal_75
:sl: sum strainj stuff around 'ere. da ishu iznt az eezi az pokin ur hed in2 da sky and tryin 2 look 4 god lyk dat. u av 2 do much mor. anywayz allah can gyd hu eva he wants
Not bad of an opinion....

(perhaps try use MOST of the letters in a word :))
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yoke
07-02-2006, 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
lol geez that's a great way to make your point :giggling: lol what reality are you referring to, we could hav labelled ur blabber as pretentious arguments... but we didnt

perhaps you can have the dignity to do a line by line refutation of our stuff.. yeh i know it might be painful (and perhaps embaressing), but you asked for it...

It is just the same as trying to convince someone the tooth fairy does not exist. Hey if you need a crutch for life well there is not much i can do about that.
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lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:35 AM

It is just the same as trying to convince someone the tooth fairy does not exist. Hey if you need a crutch for life well there is not much i can do about that.
is it? well what does a tooth fairy have to give, what miracles did it come with, besides placing 50cent coins under people's pillows... :rollseyes

you asked us to give you names of Allah so you can refute it... now we're giving you evidence adn ur just saying 'nope the reality is that its nto true'... where's the logic?
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:37 AM
Well, ok, so what happens if we stop beliving in a god(whch will never happen inshallah)?

What happens next? HAve the belief that you just gotta make the most of this life cos once this life is over, there is an eternity of nothingness.

People will be doing all sorts of bad things without any shame or fear of any reprecussions.....Religion and God gives the world order. If I had not belived in Allah(swt) then I would have done the worst of things, would have definately sunk to the lowest of the low....
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DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
is it? well what does a tooth fairy have to give, what miracles did it come with, besides placing 50cent coins under people's pillows... :rollseyes

you asked us to give you names of Allah so you can refute it... now we're giving you evidence adn ur just saying 'nope the reality is that its nto true'... where's the logic?
i second that
P.S yoke why havent you answered my question ?
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Malaikah
07-02-2006, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
It is just the same as trying to convince someone the tooth fairy does not exist.
One day that little kid will be told that his parents put the money there, thus there is no evidence of a tooth fairy. But no one is going to tell that kid that his parents created the universe and the amazing things found in it. Even dumber than the idea that the money put itself under the pillow is the suggestion that the universe created itself. That is impossible, there must be a Perfect Creater, and thats where God comes in to the story.
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Yoke, was'nt it you who started this thread:

Are some muslims afraid of debate

Well, just on this thread you can see, quite a few muslims willing to take you on, but it seems that it is you that is afraid...quit sidetracking and answer the points raised.
Yeah.....

And answer this question:

Have you ever used the expression 'Oh My god' or 'oh my gosh'?

Be honest and don't try to avoid me.
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afriend
07-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
One day that little kid will be told that his parents put the money there, thus there is no evidence of a tooth fairy. But no one is going to tell that kid that his parents created the universe and the amazing things found in it. Even dumber than the idea that the money put itself under the pillow is the suggestion that the universe created itself. That is impossible, there must be a Perfect Creater, and thats were God comes in to the story.
Nice reply mash'Allah :) :thumbs_up
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DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:43 AM
the guy is afwlully quiet

subhanAllah
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yoke
07-02-2006, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
if you are convinced on this then why bother telling us?.. i mean you could have the LIFE you want to.. dancing at night drinking, drugs ... anything..
why try to change OUR minds ? i mean dont you believe that if we die we will just become bones?
is it maybe because you are unsure yourself ? maybe you do have a sense of faith but your just to arrogant to give in to it ?
and are trying to get some ''company'' because you feel lonely? i mean .... you must be think why is everyone believing in God? is it me who is wrong ? at this moment maybe you are gaining faith? and hey fellow man or jinn or what ever maybe ou should join us instead of trying to let US join U !

offense .. peace!

:sl: :) :thankyou:
I am here to provoke people to think
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
Are you ever going to get tired of this useless, baseless "assumption"?
no iam not
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Well, ok, so what happens if we stop beliving in a god(whch will never happen inshallah)?

What happens next? HAve the belief that you just gotta make the most of this life cos once this life is over, there is an eternity of nothingness.

People will be doing all sorts of bad things without any shame or fear of any reprecussions.....Religion and God gives the world order. If I had not belived in Allah(swt) then I would have done the worst of things, would have definately sunk to the lowest of the low....
You might have sunk to the lowest of the low maybe it is better for you to have faith. But life for me and a lot of faithless people is great.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:48 AM
Believeing in God is nothing like believing in a tooth fairy. And even if the tooth fairy is false that doesn't make God false to. Just because some people believe in false ideas doesn't make every belief false by default. You would have to proove every single belief as false. The one of teh tooth fairy is easy to refute. By occams razor the explenation of parents puttin money under teh pillow is more acceptable then a fairy doing so. However, to proove islam false is a whole difrent thing. And in fact the whole reason why we're having such a fuss is because you intended to show islam is false by Allah's atributes but failed to do so. And now you're trying to do soem damage control not to loose face. Let me tell you, where you to admit that you underestimated our believe you would not have lost face, but in stead gained admiration for your honesty. It is your avoidance and stuborness that really makes you lose face.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:49 AM
i agree..


You might have sunk to the lowest of the low maybe it is better for you to have faith. But life for me and a lot of faithless people is great.
well how about we quit this little baby-style pushing and shoving and get down to the facts... are you atleast preparing a thorough refutation while you carry out ur sissy-fit outbursts in this thread?
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by steve
No it isn't
You are basing yourself on the ASSUMPTION there is no God, just as we base ourself on the ASSUMPTION that there is one. But one assumption cannot be proven more likely over the other. In teh end everybody follows his own paradigm. But you're getting of topic. It was your intention to show that some of the notions of God were flawed by defenition. You failed to show this (or at least, you fail to anser our responses to these vain attempts of you); so you suddenly change direction and claim that "no God" is a starting point for logical reasoning. Well if you start with the assumption that there is no god, you're very likely to end up with the proof that there is no god, but you're proof is then flawed because it's circular.

I'm still waiting for you're response to my earlyer comments...
If you had read my posts you not just on this thread you will see i have covered it
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:51 AM
but why would you prevoke us? what reason is there behind this... is it UNSURETY?

ur just avoiding the question i said '' change our minds'' you said '''provoke to think'' which is basically a fancy replacement phrase for '' changing minds''
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:52 AM
yoke, you're actually wasting more time and effort regurgitating "If you had read my posts you not just on this thread you will see i have covered it" when u could save urself the hassle by copying pasting the unrefuted comments which (you think) rival bro steve's comments...
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 10:52 AM
If you had read my posts you not just on this thread you will see i have covered it
Yes, truelly convienient that is. However I reply to you, had you read every single post I posted on this forum, you would see that I cover your coverings to.
:D
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Yeah.....

And answer this question:

Have you ever used the expression 'Oh My god' or 'oh my gosh'?

Be honest and don't try to avoid me.
yes i have it is a cultural thing because of the effects of religion
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:53 AM
^^lol that's all you're able to reply to, to make ur point that god doesn't exist? jeepers..
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:54 AM
LoL this is just weak man
Reply

afriend
07-02-2006, 10:58 AM
Yeah....You are made to call upon your God even without intention. Allah makes you call upon him even if you do not want to......That is the power of Allah demonstrated to you.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 10:59 AM
atheists the worst kind....


deluded by both TV and so called '' sience books''

tell me have you ever heard about the landing on the moon conspiracy?

you should just take the time think about the world i mean where does the wind come from? how can it be proven ? the big bang didnt start by it self CREATOR ... it just stupid what some people think

no offense... [S] CREATOR !!!!![/S]

i just cant stop typing whahahha.a..aajahhahhwhahah
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 10:59 AM
i agree with Iqram, just like yusuf Islam's story.

But now mr yoke... give me simple answer, are you planning on refuting what the previous bros n sis said....

and by all means.. if their claims doesnt really count as a refutation, just say it... and explain why if u dont mind

ANSWER pleeease
Reply

czgibson
07-02-2006, 10:59 AM
Greetings yoke,

Before I make any comment on your posts (as a fellow unbeliever), I'd like to ask how old you are. I suspect that this information might explain to us why your posts are as they are.

Peace
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:00 AM
ow can you believe what age he is since he is an atheist there is nothing stopping him from lying?
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:01 AM
Let me just say something about my first post "are some Muslims afraid to debate" I congratulate you on your willingness to debate that is what i came to find out. The religious people i have a problem with are the ones that if you say something and they disagree with it they threaten violence so i am happy that i have not seen any of that here. I was being honest about my beliefs and i really don't mind if people have faith or not.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:02 AM
hehe i agree bro dawud, but let's assume he's saying the truth... if he's 6 years old that's funny, adn if he's 66 that's even funnier..
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:02 AM
it is said that the best trick satan has done to mankind is tell them he does not exist and in battle the worst enemy you can have is one that you can not see that is why armies where camoflouge
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
Let me just say something about my first post "are some Muslims afraid to debate" I congratulate you on your willingness to debate that is what i came to find out. The religious people i have a problem with are the ones that if you say something and they disagree with it they threaten violence so i am happy that i have not seen any of that here. I was being honest about my beliefs and i really don't mind if people have faith or not.
well that's nice of you yoke :) now we'd like to get to the bottom of this via non violent way... (e.g. thread shutdowns due to pointless posts)... please provide us a thorough refutation
Reply

afriend
07-02-2006, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
hehe i agree bro dawud, but let's assume he's saying the truth... if he's 6 years old that's funny, adn if he's 66 that's even funnier..
ROFLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :giggling: ;D :happy:

Well...you know, he is mostly standing on baseless gounds.
Reply

czgibson
07-02-2006, 11:05 AM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
ow can you believe what age he is since he is an atheist there is nothing stopping him from lying?
Now why would you be so rude about atheists? How dare you.

Peace
Reply

afriend
07-02-2006, 11:06 AM
let us not be rude, there are some bad muslims and good muslims, as well as good atheists and bad ones too :) (that tell the truth)
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:07 AM
^^ czgibson, refer to the music thread where i commented on how if ur a rational person u shouldn't be all that offended.

for now.. im waiting for yoke's reply, common buddy.. we're waiting.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Now why would you be so rude about atheists? How dare you.

Peace

atheists need to keep one thing in mind telling believers that Allah does not exist is worse then insulting their mothers, had it not been that Allah had told us in the Quran to be just i would have said far worse and unthinkable stuff
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
Let me just say something about my first post "are some Muslims afraid to debate" I congratulate you on your willingness to debate that is what i came to find out. The religious people i have a problem with are the ones that if you say something and they disagree with it they threaten violence so i am happy that i have not seen any of that here. I was being honest about my beliefs and i really don't mind if people have faith or not.
Well I do not mind your honesty. And you are certainly entiteled to your own opinion. And if you do not feel like answering our arguments you are not required to. But! A forum is meanth to discuss points, if you make a statement we will debate it. Then you have the choice to either leave it refuted or defend it (pick your battles!) What you cannot do is keep repeating stuff like: I already said that. If your message was clear from your origenal post we would not have answered whatever we have answered. Obviously there is a need for clarification. So golden rule, when debating either defend your points or give up. You can't have something inbetween. And you certainly can't attack other people personally because you fail to defend your point.
Reply

Malaikah
07-02-2006, 11:09 AM
:sl:

Yeh, lets not be so rude, it cant be easy for yoke to try to argue his point when everyone is against him.

Yoke, i really think you need to state youre points more clearly and logically, your introduction to this was itself rather confusing.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:10 AM
If i wanted to really get involved in a serious debate i normally would not entertain religious people. If anyone wants a serious debate you will have to prove you have some credentials.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:11 AM
and how are we suposed to do that?
Reply

afriend
07-02-2006, 11:12 AM
I have credentials....Not bragging or anything...But bring it on......
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
If i wanted to really get involved in a serious debate i normally would not entertain religious people. If anyone wants a serious debate you will have to prove you have some credentials.
oh come on that's not fair, who else but the people who understand the religion would know how to handle this stuff? what, you want to debate with another athiest about this matter?

your first criteria was that u wanted to debate with nonviolent people.. well all people who understand Islam don't mind debating with people of logic in a nonviolent way..
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 11:13 AM
If i wanted to really get involved in a serious debate i normally would not entertain religious people. If anyone wants a serious debate you will have to prove you have some credentials.
Well you need to understand this forum is available for everyone. If you start a debate here (and you were the initiator of this debate); everybody is free to participate (except of course banned members who were obviously banned for a reason)
If you do not wich to debate with the likes of us then you are out of place here.
Reply

Malaikah
07-02-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
If i wanted to really get involved in a serious debate i normally would not entertain religious people. If anyone wants a serious debate you will have to prove you have some credentials.
Why dont you prove yourself worthy first? What are YOUR credentials?
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
oh come on that's not fair, who else but the people who understand the religion would know how to handle this stuff? what, you want to debate with another athiest about this matter?
good one :sl:

but let the guy/girl speak a word
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:21 AM
i don't mind debating with a religious person but i will not organize it if anyone comes up with a good proposal i might agree to it. If not i have a lot other things to do.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:22 AM
you're playing victim now... wasnt us who started this stuff, we're pretty happy with our beliefs... it's you who wants to know, not us.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:26 AM
I am very happy with my beliefs as well. if this is the end of it thats fine by me.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
I am very happy with my beliefs as well. if this is the end of it thats fine by me.
hey what's stopping you from using drugs and stuff if your an atheist what's giving yu the morrals?
PEACE
Reply

Malaikah
07-02-2006, 11:28 AM
If you want to debate go for it. Bring up a worth topic or even come up with some good points for this topic if you have any.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
i don't mind debating with a religious person but i will not organize it if anyone comes up with a good proposal i might agree to it. If not i have a lot other things to do.
Ok here's a proposal: Just you and me, one on one. You can chose the arena. Either on this forum and we ask others not to participate, or with Pm, or you cuold pm me to ask my Msn or google adress to use instant messenger. I'll let my arguments be my credentials.

I understand if you have better things to do, and don't feel like answering all our points, but then you shouldn't have started this thread in teh first place.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:31 AM
^^ i agree, maybe the mods can assign a thread with user privilages.. and when they're done, make the thread available to public? dunno if vB that functional tho
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
hey what's stopping you from using drugs and stuff if your an atheist what's giving yu the morrals?
PEACE
most people are naturally good.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:35 AM
dawud don't reply.

yoke, now answr steve's proposal.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by steve
Ok here's a proposal: Just you and me, one on one. You can chose the arena. Either on this forum and we ask others not to participate, or with Pm, or you cuold pm me to ask my Msn or google adress to use instant messenger. I'll let my arguments be my credentials.

I understand if you have better things to do, and don't feel like answering all our points, but then you shouldn't have started this thread in teh first place.
I will have to think about it because of other commitments but i will let you know on this forum what i decide.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 11:39 AM
blah, then why did u come up with the idea of a debate in the first place
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by yoke
most people are naturally good.
:sl:
Since what you said in a another topic was probably a mistake, I forgive you. I have not invented a new religion. In all religions interpretation differs, and my interpretation is just one you have not heard of before.

Islam says people are not just naturally good, but that they are naturally Muslims. Everyone is born as a Muslim, but their environment makes them an atheist or a Jew or a Christian (or what ever else you may be).

It is not a good idea to try to make somebody lose their religion, even if you think atheism is correct. Religious people like me are deeply attatched to their faith, and I would become extremely deppressed if I lost it. As Root said, religious people tend to live longer and happier lives.
:w:
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Since what you said in a another topic was probably a mistake, I forgive you. I have not invented a new religion. In all religions interpretation differs, and my interpretation is just one you have not heard of before.

Islam says people are not just naturally good, but that they are naturally Muslims. Everyone is born as a Muslim, but their environment makes them an atheist or a Jew or a Christian (or what ever else you may be).
:w:
Yes i am sure nobody here just believed because they where born into it and are you you trying to tell me that the majority of Muslims checked out all the evidence why people believe it is false i don't think so. Everybody knows that most Muslims come from Muslim countries
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Yes, this ability to recognise good from wrong whilst recognising God is termed 'Fitrah':

30:30 So turn your face to the pure path of monotheism in accordance with the fitrah which God has instilled in mankind. No change shall there be in [the nature] of God's creation. That is the upright path, but most among mankind know not.
the BOLD ITALIC, UNDERLINED REFERS TO YOU yoke
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-02-2006, 11:51 AM
It doesn't matter where most muslims come from. Even a muslim from a muslim country has the ability (and right) to ask questions and investigate his faith.
As for me, I was born in Belgium, a western country. My mother is catholic and my father was an atheist. I was raised to mke up my own mind, and up untill recently I was an atheist, just like you, untill I took the efford to actually check Islam out, look up the evidence, question the ideals, and found it to be perfect. So perfect I could not dney it. And you'll find many more like me on this particular forum.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 11:53 AM
look at what i found in the Quran :

[20:16] "Do not be diverted therefrom by those who do not believe in it - those who pursue their own opinions - lest you fall.

what i coincidence
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by steve
It doesn't matter where most muslims come from. Even a muslim from a muslim country has the ability (and right) to ask questions and investigate his faith.
As for me, I was born in Belgium, a western country. My mother is catholic and my father was an atheist. I was raised to mke up my own mind, and up untill recently I was an atheist, just like you, untill I took the efford to actually check Islam out, look up the evidence, question the ideals, and found it to be perfect. So perfect I could not dney it. And you'll find many more like me on this particular forum.
If it makes you happy and you are not harming anybody else because of your faith then good luck to you. I know there is no god.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 12:03 PM
oh... fine, be like that... thanks for wasting our time then

(some mod might as well just plug this in the recycle bin..)
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
oh... fine, be like that... thanks for wasting our time then

(some mod might as well just plug this in the recycle bin..)
Those who are interested in truth will find out for themselves.
Reply

------
07-02-2006, 12:13 PM
Those who are interested in truth will find out for themselves.
They sure will....correction....u sure will.

So yoke what is your age?
Reply

I R Paki
07-02-2006, 12:14 PM
Can't you see his main objective is to annoy you, and he isnt being seroius. Everything he said is flawed, whatever he said is probaly stolen of other debate sites, and he just wants to see everything get really angry, its quite pathetic. And, when your not getting annoyed, he resorts to saying things like
re-read my post, etc.
. Hes not really had a huge sucess with this, I think its his way of passing the time.
Reply

I R Paki
07-02-2006, 12:15 PM
I cannot edit, otherwise Id sort the spelling mistakes out.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
They sure will....correction....u sure will.

So yoke what is your age?
my age has nothing to do with it.
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Yes i am sure nobody here just believed because they where born into it and are you you trying to tell me that the majority of Muslims checked out all the evidence why people believe it is false i don't think so. Everybody knows that most Muslims come from Muslim countries
:sl:
I did not mean that. I meant that everyone (even you) was born as a Muslim, but some people (like you and me) were influenced by their surroundings and left at a very young age. This is why people who become Muslims (like me) are called reverts, not converts.

my age has nothing to do with it.
Yes it does. Although there are plenty of young people who make mature comments and arguments, you are not one of them, judging by your previous comments. You cannot just say 'there is no God' without giving good evidence.

:w:
Reply

------
07-02-2006, 12:19 PM
my age has nothing to do with it.
Your age has EVERYTHING to do with it m8.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by I R Paki
Can't you see his main objective is to annoy you, and he isnt being seroius. Everything he said is flawed, whatever he said is probaly stolen of other debate sites, and he just wants to see everything get really angry, its quite pathetic. And, when your not getting annoyed, he resorts to saying things like . Hes not really had a huge sucess with this, I think its his way of passing the time.
Yes you are right i have a few days of from work and i thought i would check out a muslim website for some quickfire debate.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 12:21 PM
and it sadly ended up with negative reps and not much progress...
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I did not mean that. I meant that everyone (even you) was born as a Muslim, but some people (like you and me) were influenced by their surroundings and left at a very young age. This is why people who become Muslims (like me) are called reverts, not converts.


Yes it does. Although there are plenty of young people who make mature comments and arguments, you are not one of them, judging by your previous comments. You cannot just say 'there is no God' without giving good evidence.

:w:
Nobody is born a muslim it is a choice you make the muslim religion is very young. Not even 2000 years old it will fade out like the rest of them. I have already given good evidence for my beliefs.
Reply

lolwatever
07-02-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Nobody is born a muslim it is a choice you make the muslim religion is very young. Not even 2000 years old it will fade out like the rest of them. I have already given good evidence for my beliefs.
hold ur stirrups yoke... let's not get into technical stuff before you master your basics...
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
Your age has EVERYTHING to do with it m8.
too young to know any better and too old to debate with people who have not studied .
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
07-02-2006, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Nobody is born a muslim it is a choice you make the muslim religion is very young. Not even 2000 years old it will fade out like the rest of them. I have already given good evidence for my beliefs.
WRONG every prophet was a muslim ! so islam has been here since the begining of time and will be there till after !
Reply

------
07-02-2006, 12:26 PM
Nobody is born a muslim it is a choice you make the muslim religion is very young.
Everyone is born muslim - the religion they choose next is up to them
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Nobody is born a muslim it is a choice you make the muslim religion is very young. Not even 2000 years old it will fade out like the rest of them. I have already given good evidence for my beliefs.
:sl:
technically, every single bit of the universe is Muslim, because it is completely submitted to Allah.
:w:
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
hold ur stirrups yoke... let's not get into technical stuff before you master your basics...

what on earth are you talking aout
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
WRONG every prophet was a muslim ! so islam has been here since the begining of time and will be there till after !
Really where where the prophets 10000 years ago?
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
Really where where the prophets 10000 years ago?
:sl:
Possibly.
:w:
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:36 PM
go and read about why muslims leave there are plenty of them who have explained why on the internet then get back to me.
Reply

------
07-02-2006, 12:38 PM
Really where where the prophets 10000 years ago?
Where was ur so called evolution theory 10000 years ago?!
Reply

------
07-02-2006, 12:38 PM
go and read about why muslims leave there are plenty of them who have explained why on the internet then get back to me.
You read about coverts to Islam and get back to me m8.
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Aalimah
Where was ur so called evolution theory 10000 years ago?!
in the ice age
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by yoke
go and read about why muslims leave there are plenty of them who have explained why on the internet then get back to me.
:sl:
I am not aware of any Islamic scholar leaving because they thought the creed was wrong.

And there are far more Christian apostates than Muslim ones.
:w:
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I am not aware of any Islamic scholar leaving because they thought the creed was wrong.

And there are far more Christian apostates than Muslim ones.
:w:
I am sure there are lots of them if you did a search on the Internet. i have never read any of them but if i was a Muslim or a christian i would be interested to know why people have left their faith but then again as i said before most religious people do not care if their faith is a delusion.
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 12:56 PM
:sl:
I can easily answer the question 'what is God?'.
God is the omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing being governing and controlling the universe. God is supernatural in nature, not an extraterrestial.
:w:
Reply

yoke
07-02-2006, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I can easily answer the question 'what is God?'.
God is the omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing being governing and controlling the universe. God is supernatural in nature, not an extraterrestial.
:w:
that is a good note to end on more evidence than allah does not exist god cannot be omnipotent and all knowing.
If God knows the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it-in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it prior to its actual happening-in which case he cannot be omniscient.
Reply

- Qatada -
07-02-2006, 01:46 PM
yoke is banned, because he continously attacks islam and also other members for no apparent reason.

If he really wanted to learn about islam - he would keep an open mind. But he doesn't want to do that.


Thread Closed.
Reply

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