Poll for Muslims - 1st Allegiance

[snakelegs]

if you had to choose, what country would you owe your first allegiance to:
1. the country i live in.
2. the country of my ethnic group
3. the ummah

[north_malaysian]

if you had to choose, what country would you owe your first allegiance to:
1. the country i live in.
2. the country of my ethnic group
3. the ummah

the country I live in.

the ummah? - which country?:?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^^The ummah is not a country, thats the problem with the question, the ummah is not united, so we cant side with it really.

[snakelegs]

because of the british muslim soldier who was killed in afghanistan, and people caling him "muslim" in quotes....
should the 1st allegiance go to islam and the muslim people (this is the meaning of ummah, isn't it?)?
hmmm...should i word it differently?

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[------]

The Country with Islam and Sunnah implemented into its rules - the Ummah

[Malaikah]

because of the british muslim soldier who was killed in afghanistan, and people caling him "muslim" in quotes....
should the 1st allegiance go to islam and the muslim people (this is the meaning of ummah, isn't it?)?
hmmm...should i word it differently?

Well yes i guess so, the 1st (and i think only) allegiance is to Islam. but its a rather theoretical question at the moment isnt it, given that the Muslims are divided and too many of the leaders are corrupt.

[north_malaysian]

snakelegs - do u think that Muslims can be a united ummah?

My answer - ONLY in Mecca - for the purpose of hajj or umrah rituals.

Other than that - it'll be like decades (the quickest) if not centuries.

Muslims are not united - so no Ummah right now.

[snakelegs]

hmmmm.. maybe it's a stupid question? (it's getting late here)
if UK had a draft, and a muslim had to choose whether to serve his country in a war against a muslim country, should he refuse?
is his first duty to UK or to islam?

[snakelegs]

snakelegs - do u think that Muslims can be a united ummah?

My answer - ONLY in Mecca - for the purpose of hajj or umrah rituals.

Other than that - it'll be like decades (the quickest) if not centuries.

Muslims are not united - so no Ummah right now.

no, i know muslims are not a united ummah, but i thought they considered themselves to be a "people", an ummah in theory? the soldier was condemned for fighting muslims for a non-muslim country - the country he was a citizen of.
oh, dear! i never should've started this one. my ignorance.

[------]

is his first duty to UK or to islam?

ISLAM - deffo

[IbnAbdulHakim]

islam before everything!

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Islam deffo Heck I'd even fight against my own famaily if they opposed islam.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Islam deffo Heck I'd even fight against my own famaily if they opposed islam.

:) mashAllah

[amirah_87]

ass salaamu alaykum

Islam i guess ... i'm surprised sum ppl would join the army and fight against their brothers !!...subhaanAllah

wa alayum ass salaam

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

if people come and occupy Britain and oppress its people, muslims here are obligated under Islamic law to protect their country and their fellow country men/women, and children...even if the aggressor is a muslim army.

however i dont believe any country has the right to protect itself by shipping planeloads and shiploads of soldiers to far off countries in other continents..how are British, US or Australian Soldiers defending their countries in Iraq/Afghanistan?:uhwhat

the most effective way to defend your country is protecting your airspace, your seas, your borders...thats the way it was done since the dawn of time...sure invasions were common and but thats the most logical and humane thing to do.:thankyou:

Peace

[searchingsoul]

I may ruffle some feathers but I think anyone who does not owe their first allegiance to the country they live in should anticipate and accept any hostilities thrown their way in the sake of patriotism.

[Asyur an-Nagi]

ass salaamu alaykum

Islam i guess ... i'm surprised sum ppl would join the army and fight against their brothers !!...subhaanAllah

wa alayum ass salaam

now that's confusing. being an army and fight against their brothers? being an army soldier means being responsible to keep their own soil safe from invaders. i always respect them to get us sleep peacefully and they are face-to face with danger in our name. (if they join an army to invade, that is wrong)

[searchingsoul]

now that's confusing. being an army and fight against their brothers? being an army soldier means being responsible to keep their own soil safe from invaders. i always respect them to get us sleep peacefully and they are face-to face with danger in our name. (if they join an army to invade, that is wrong)

I agree. We have national armies in today's world. We do not have religious armies....or do we?:?

[Ghazi]

:sl:

The ummah is a 'Nation' why it doesn't have a army when every single other nation has is just stupid I'm sick of people saying oh we need a caliphate heck I'll be Calipha.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

The ummah is a 'Nation' why it doesn't have a army when every single other nation has is just stupid I'm sick of people saying oh we need a caliphate heck I'll be Calipha.

bro thats the problem, no-one accepts a caliphah. No one seems good enough,if everyone would just accept one man as there Kaliphah then we might have been able to do something...

[Ghazi]

bro thats the problem, no-one accepts a caliphah. No one seems good enough,if everyone would just accept one man as there Kaliphah then we might have been able to do something...

:sl:

If only a small group of people decide then thats good enough word of mouth will spread and then loyalty will be given.

[searchingsoul]

:sl:

The ummah is a 'Nation' why it doesn't have a army when every single other nation has is just stupid I'm sick of people saying oh we need a caliphate heck I'll be Calipha.

Is a caliphate the equivelant to the Roman Catholic Pope?

[Ghazi]

Is a caliphate the equivelant to the Roman Catholic Pope?

:sl:

Yes but he is also a political leader.

[searchingsoul]

:sl:

Yes but he is also a political leader.

Who would appoint such a person? Is this person necessary?

[Ghazi]

Who would appoint such a person? Is this person necessary?

:sl:

Every nation needs a leader, the ummah is weak at the moment and all I hear is "Calipha!,Calipha!"

[Dahir]

I don't believe in ANY sort of Nationalism.

We are mammals after all. A "country" is just a large piece of dirt and grass with a flag sticking out of its soil, nothing else. We should be free to migrate anywhere as we please without checkpoints or borders. But, the British thought it a good idea to make the rules extra rigid as to who owns what and we foolishly follow along.

[Dahir]

as should all muslims.

But will we be heard?:X

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Every nation needs a leader, the ummah is weak at the moment and all I hear is "Calipha!,Calipha!"

and i will never stop calling for that, im getting more desperate by the day! Im actually startin to get these urges to see if the taliban is worthy of Kaliph!

:salamext:

[Ghazi]

and i will never stop calling for that, im getting more desperate by the day! Im actually startin to get these urges to see if the taliban is worthy of Kaliph!

:salamext:

:sl:

I sometimes think are we muslims just stupid I mean the laws are there how come they aint implamented.

[HeiGou]

bro thats the problem, no-one accepts a caliphah. No one seems good enough,if everyone would just accept one man as there Kaliphah then we might have been able to do something...

Actually I think you have several problems. One is that every accepts a Caliph - themselves. Everyone wants to be Caliph, no one is willing to obey another.

The second one is that the strength of the West is the depth of its institutions, ideas and people. Thinking that one man is going to solve all your problems is a mistake. What happens when that one man dies? What happens if he is not perfect after all? Think beyond the individual to a rich and education population with robust institutions.

Third of course is that waiting for the Man of Horseback is reason to do nothing. As long as you all say "we need a Caliph" what you really mean is "I can do nothing, I am responsible for nothing, I will wait for God to put things right". You all will be waiting for the right man in 2020, 2050, 2080, 3050....

[scentsofjannah]

Is a caliphate the equivelant to the Roman Catholic Pope?

The Roman Catholic Pope is considered infallible by catholics much like the Shia leaders

khalif on the other hand is a leader chosen by mutual consultation and he should be obeyed as long as he obeys God and treats those under his care with justice.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Third of course is that waiting for the Man of Horseback is reason to do nothing. As long as you all say "we need a Caliph" what you really mean is "I can do nothing, I am responsible for nothing, I will wait for God to put things right". You all will be waiting for the right man in 2020, 2050, 2080, 3050....

this is sadly the state we're in, inshaAllah wiv Allahs help we may hav a PROPER islamic state by the time im 40 :) then i'll die shaheed inshaAllah :)

[Rou]

:sl:

^^The ummah is not a country, thats the problem with the question, the ummah is not united, so we cant side with it really.

personally i see so much willingness to unite but i see no banner to unite under i see no true leader...

a world full of millions of muslims and i see no leader rising...

seems unnatural..when i hear of leaders rising i soon hear them straying..or dying...

we are stopped from uniting...

majority of muslims i speak to are strong in faith or at least willing to follow truth...

so quite strange...

may allah give us strength...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Ameen thumma Ameen!

[searcheroftruth]

islam come on what do get when you fight for your countrie a medal which some man made but when you fight for islam you get the greatest of rewards

[ishkabab]

the ummah no doubt about that...

[Ghazi]

personally i see so much willingness to unite but i see no banner to unite under i see no true leader...

a world full of millions of muslims and i see no leader rising...

seems unnatural..when i hear of leaders rising i soon hear them straying..or dying...

we are stopped from uniting...

majority of muslims i speak to are strong in faith or at least willing to follow truth...

so quite strange...

may allah give us strength...

:sl:

Thats the problem eveyone is waiting for the perfect leader to sort their problems out, sorry to break it to you until the mahdi comes there won't be such a person, even if someone rises they'll have faults, I think I'll be a good leader I admit my knowladge aint great but thats what scholars are for so I'll hand in my application.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Thats the problem eveyone is waiting for the perfect leader to sort their problems out, sorry to break it to you until the mahdi comes there won't be such a person, even if someone rises they'll have faults, I think I'll be a good leader I admit my knowladge aint great but thats what scholars are for so I'll hand in my application.

i dont really care who the leader is, if the leader is just thats ALL that matters, knowledge can be obtained, being just is a quality which is rare...

[Ghazi]

i dont really care who the leader is, if the leader is just thats ALL that matters, knowledge can be obtained, being just is a quality which is rare...

:sl:

But people often go around in circles they'll cliam they want something and won't go out and do it. Thats why I say I'll be leader cause that's one excuse people use, I'll try and set up a site or something devoted to this idea.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

But people often go around in circles they'll cliam they want something and won't go out and do it. Thats why I say I'll be leader cause that's one excuse people use, I'll try and set up a site or something devoted to this idea.

an internet site will do u no good, a site in reality such as a masjid will get raided within a matter of months. We cant oppose the huge masses of forces in this country. Only thing to do is move to a country with a muslim leader and take it from there...

[Rou]

:sl:

Thats the problem eveyone is waiting for the perfect leader to sort their problems out, sorry to break it to you until the mahdi comes there won't be such a person, even if someone rises they'll have faults, I think I'll be a good leader I admit my knowladge aint great but thats what scholars are for so I'll hand in my application.

Inshallah we will see a leader rise soon then :)

either way no indeed a leader is not perfect in any case who is?

point is even someone who comes close is hard to find in the confusion that is around today...

may allah guide us and give the misguided some sense...

[Rou]

an internet site will do u no good, a site in reality such as a masjid will get raided within a matter of months. We cant oppose the huge masses of forces in this country. Only thing to do is move to a country with a muslim leader and take it from there...

This is probably true...

[Ghazi]

Inshallah we will see a leader rise soon then :)

either way no indeed a leader is not perfect in any case who is?

point is even someone who comes close is hard to find in the confusion that is around today...

may allah guide us and give the misguided some sense...

:sl:

Hmm... this is gonna sound stupid but what are the scholars for I mean couldn't we just ask 2 scholars for each madhab to form a union or something in some land and take it from there, the problem is muslims over complicate things and don't actually back them up they'll say we want a calipha but won't do anything to get one.

[Rou]

:sl:

Hmm... this is gonna sound stupid but what are the scholars for I mean couldn't we just ask 2 scholars for each madhab to form a union or something in some land and take it from there, the problem is muslims over complicate things and don't actually back them up they'll say we want a calipha but won't do anything to get one.

What will scholars do!? they will say this verse is correct and this law is right that is by there opinion they are just as human as u and me...

allah gave us all the quran for us all to understand not just scholars...

there judgment will not find a leader there knowledge will help clairfy quranic verses...

a leader needs to be one who see's clearly what is needed and that is justice and he should not be afraid to stand up for it...

one must rise in peace but in defince of what is happening, for outright violence will prove nothing...

first the leader should call for unity and be clear of heart to be able to do so (not perfect no..but sane...)

then together we should show our defince at the unfair treatment of all innocents...

as some may think we are not here for war we are here for peace...but not only peace for those who can afford it...

peace for all...

inshallah soon....allah knows best for what we must learn from our suffering and gain from our fate...

Wether Sunni , Shia , Kurdish what are you compared to allah?

there is only allah...there is only islam...

Our people will wake i pray and i pray it will be soon inshallah......

[Ghazi]

What will scholars do!? they will say this verse is correct and this law is right that is by there opinion they are just as human as u and me...

allah gave us all the quran for us all to understand not just scholars...

there judgment will not find a leader there knowledge will help clairfy quranic verses...

a leader needs to be one who see's clearly what is needed and that is justice and he should not be afraid to stand up for it...

one must rise in peace but in defince of what is happening, for outright violence will prove nothing...

first the leader should call for unity and be clear of heart to be able to do so (not perfect no..but sane...)

then together we should show our defince at the unfair treatment of all innocents...

as some may think we are not here for war we are here for peace...but not only peace for those who can afford it...

peace for all...

inshallah soon....allah knows best for what we must learn from our suffering and gain from our fate...

:sl:

Sounds nice but who's gonna be the leader, but one thing I've noticed is that scholars seem to have authority in the ummah, we need to get a leader anyone in mind.

[Rou]

:sl:

Sounds nice but who's gonna be the leader, but one thing I've noticed is that scholars seem to have authority in the ummah, we need to get a leader anyone in mind.

There is no one brother...where is the defince? who in the arab world is calling? who shouts defince?

in other muslim lands too they care more of there single land or there own pockets more than our people...

they fear that they will rise and muslims on a whole will not come only those in there country so they fear...

only the iranian president has voiced without fear is he the leader we seek? i know not what his fate is but what i do know is i doubt the leader of a country will be our leader he will be one who is not connected to one land...

for that is what separates us...we see it as that countries problem not our peoples problem...

iraq got attacked as a country so did afganistan...

where were all muslims?? its a mind game... eventhough the target is the following and the belifs it will always be shown as an attack on a country and for so called valid reasons...

thats why muslims will not unite behind a leader of a country out of ignorance and doubt...

Who is the leader...?

allah knows my friend...

[Ghazi]

There is no one brother...where is the defince? who in the arab world is calling? who shouts defince?

in other muslim lands too they care more of there single land or there own pockets more than our people...

they fear that they will rise and muslims on a whole will not come only those in there country so they fear...

only the iranian president has voiced without fear is he the leader we seek? i know not what his fate is but what i do know is i doubt the leader of a country will be our leader he will be one who is not connected to one land...

for that is what separates us...we see it as that countries problem not our peoples problem...

iraq got attacked as a country so did afganistan...

where were all muslims?? its a mind game... eventhough the target is the following and the belifs it will always be shown as an attack on a country and for so called valid reasons...

thats why muslims will not unite behind a leader of a country out of ignorance and doubt...

Who is the leader...?

allah knows my friend...

:sl:

You know what the ummah have the rules and regulations to be the dominate force on earth but they don't implament it, I'll put my self forward as leader or anyone can all we need is someone willing to be leader.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

for me the ummah..

What can i do to be loyal to the ummah..
follow the laws of islam..
for then i perform dakwah with my very being..

My action are i hope are in an Islamic light and will aid any brother of sisters as i amn,inshallah.

For helping our brothers and sister in your own coutnry in your state in your own backyard,wheter known or a stranger AID the ummah as a whole.
for are all individual in one community.

So if we accept one another and aid one another and mnove as ONE in our own coutnry then expands Inshallah,it will the Ummah universal..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Salaam,

for me the ummah..

What can i do to be loyal to the ummah..
follow the laws of islam..
for then i perform dakwah with my very being..

My action are i hope are in an Islamic light and will aid any brother of sisters as i amn,inshallah.

For helping our brothers and sister in your own coutnry in your state in your own backyard,wheter known or a stranger AID the ummah as a whole.
for are all individual in one community.

So if we accept one another and aid one another and mnove as ONE in our own coutnry then expands Inshallah,it will the Ummah universal..

mashAllah, thats good, but the ummah are suffering right now. I understand we need to regroup, but no-one takes this seriously, its like the whole ummah is scattered like moths :(

[Ghazi]

mashAllah, thats good, but the ummah are suffering right now. I understand we need to regroup, but no-one takes this seriously, its like the whole ummah is scattered like moths :(

:sl:

I take it seriously heck I'll be claipha wanna join my state we can do it within our selfs till we get things started for real inshallah.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

I take it seriously heck I'll be claipha wanna join my state we can do it within our selfs till we get things started for real inshallah.

lol bro, how many people do you think will join our army?

[Ghazi]

lol bro, how many people do you think will join our army?

:sl:

Army? lol, loads cause I'm serious about this I'll spread the word set up somewhere and invite scholars people from all professions and the genral muslim population to live with us I think people are just wating for someone to take the first step, One small step for islam-truth, One Gaint leap for the ummah. and the number one rule is no sectarien issues hell if anyone brings that shia sunni beef around me I'll hang them my self i'll save them some money on the c4 that they'd use to blow-up mosques.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Army? lol, loads cause I'm serious about this I'll spread the word set up somewhere and invite scholars people from all professions and the genral muslim population to live with us I think people are just wating for someone to take the first step, One small step for islam-truth, One Gaint leap for the ummah. and the number one rule is no sectarien issues hell if anyone brings that shia sunni beef around me I'll hang them my self i'll save them some money on the c4 that they'd use to blow-up mosques.

LOLOL!!

im in ;) , u remind me of ABU DHARR (RA), one small step, TWO WHOLE TRIBES ACCEPTED ISLAM!

SubhanAllah, may Allah help us in our mission. Ameen!

:salamext:

[umm-sulaim]

[QUOTE=scentsofjannah;386685]:sl:

if people come and occupy Britain and oppress its people, muslims here are obligated under Islamic law to protect their country and their fellow country men/women, and children...even if the aggressor is a muslim army.

What you say kinda makes sense to me but then again,
ok akhee what do you say to hadeeth abee sa3eed alkhdhree in meaning that you can't point a weapon at your brother, agreed upon.
or hadeeth that the prophet alayhi salaatu wasslaam said about the 2 muslims that fight eachother " fal gaatil wal magtuul finnaar" then the killer and the killed are in the fire, when the companions asked why the killer was in the fire he replied alayhi sallatu wassalaam : because he sought to kill his brother! agreed upon.
I would be intrested to know where you got this fatwa from, thanks.

however i dont believe any country has the right to protect itself by shipping planeloads and shiploads of soldiers to far off countries in other continents..how are British, US or Australian Soldiers defending their countries in Iraq/Afghanistan?:uhwhat

Oh through oppression, pure thulm! and the oh so lame excuse of dictatorship and human rights and what not, if you ask me its just an excuse to kill muslims!
I'm with you on that 1 bro, can't see how that is! *shakes head*

[Ghazi]

:sl:

if people come and occupy Britain and oppress its people, muslims here are obligated under Islamic law to protect their country and their fellow country men/women, and children...even if the aggressor is a muslim army.

huh? can I have some daleel please?

[Skillganon]

I really think people who thinks that we need a caliph to solve the immediate problem will not be effective as reason hegiou stated above. What we need is revival of the ummah contrary to what people thinks that it is not their anymore. We muslim everyone are the ummah, and we got ourselve in this negative attitude that it does not exist, which means we don't care about each other and our fellow being which is not true. What we have to do is to progress (revival) the ummah by getting rid of what is detrimental to it.

I know I have not proposed a stratgey or higlighted the problem of the ummah, but I am pondering on it.

[searchingsoul]

Salaam,

for me the ummah..

What can i do to be loyal to the ummah..
follow the laws of islam..
for then i perform dakwah with my very being..

My action are i hope are in an Islamic light and will aid any brother of sisters as i amn,inshallah.

For helping our brothers and sister in your own coutnry in your state in your own backyard,wheter known or a stranger AID the ummah as a whole.
for are all individual in one community.

So if we accept one another and aid one another and mnove as ONE in our own coutnry then expands Inshallah,it will the Ummah universal..

I'm of course not Muslim but find this approach reasonable and worthy of respect.

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=umm-sulaim;391739]

:sl:

if people come and occupy Britain and oppress its people, muslims here are obligated under Islamic law to protect their country and their fellow country men/women, and children...even if the aggressor is a muslim army.

What you say kinda makes sense to me but then again,
ok akhee what do you say to hadeeth abee sa3eed alkhdhree in meaning that you can't point a weapon at your brother, agreed upon.
or hadeeth that the prophet alayhi salaatu wasslaam said about the 2 muslims that fight eachother " fal gaatil wal magtuul finnaar" then the killer and the killed are in the fire, when the companions asked why the killer was in the fire he replied alayhi sallatu wassalaam : because he sought to kill his brother! agreed upon.
I would be intrested to know where you got this fatwa from, thanks.

however i dont believe any country has the right to protect itself by shipping planeloads and shiploads of soldiers to far off countries in other continents..how are British, US or Australian Soldiers defending their countries in Iraq/Afghanistan?:uhwhat

Simple: They are trying to prevent further terrorism.

Oh through oppression, pure thulm! and the oh so lame excuse of dictatorship and human rights and what not, if you ask me its just an excuse to kill muslims!

Some "Muslims" deserve to be killed. Of course some "Christians" (and other so called religious people) deserved to be killed as well.
I'm with you on that 1 bro, can't see how that is! *shakes head*

my 2 cents

[Rou]

[quote=umm-sulaim;391739]

:sl:

if people come and occupy Britain and oppress its people, muslims here are obligated under Islamic law to protect their country and their fellow country men/women, and children...even if the aggressor is a muslim army.

What you say kinda makes sense to me but then again,
ok akhee what do you say to hadeeth abee sa3eed alkhdhree in meaning that you can't point a weapon at your brother, agreed upon.
or hadeeth that the prophet alayhi salaatu wasslaam said about the 2 muslims that fight eachother " fal gaatil wal magtuul finnaar" then the killer and the killed are in the fire, when the companions asked why the killer was in the fire he replied alayhi sallatu wassalaam : because he sought to kill his brother! agreed upon.
I would be intrested to know where you got this fatwa from, thanks.

however i dont believe any country has the right to protect itself by shipping planeloads and shiploads of soldiers to far off countries in other continents..how are British, US or Australian Soldiers defending their countries in Iraq/Afghanistan?:uhwhat

Oh through oppression, pure thulm! and the oh so lame excuse of dictatorship and human rights and what not, if you ask me its just an excuse to kill muslims!
I'm with you on that 1 bro, can't see how that is! *shakes head*

IT depends on the reason...there are a many range of reasons and a many number of issues to be looked at before a muslim suddenly decided's to fight an army of any kind...

to protect innocents is fine but to fight an army of islam is diffrent to fighting a person of muslim origin...

muslims who harm innocents are no muslims...so to fight them would not contradict the law...however to take up arms against a islamic army depending on many factors would need to be looked at...

you said if they came to be opressed? islamicly no army will come to oppress for then it would not be islamic!? as i said many factors...

[Rou]

[quote=searchingsoul;391974]

however i dont believe any country has the right to protect itself by shipping planeloads and shiploads of soldiers to far off countries in other continents..how are British, US or Australian Soldiers defending their countries in Iraq/Afghanistan?:uhwhat

Simple: They are trying to prevent further terrorism.

Oh through oppression, pure thulm! and the oh so lame excuse of dictatorship and human rights and what not, if you ask me its just an excuse to kill muslims!

Some "Muslims" deserve to be killed. Of course some "Christians" (and other so called religious people) deserved to be killed as well.
I'm with you on that 1 bro, can't see how that is! *shakes head*

my 2 cents

This reasoning makes no sense as the reason terrorisem started is by creatin g an inbalance and strife in another peoples land and then ignoring or silencing there voices when they spoke up...

terrorisem is a very strange word? it is used majority of the time against those who have little means of attacking back at aggressors who are in there land and have an unfair advantages over there people...and those who attack back are called terrorists?

agreed that to kill innocents is not part of our path...thats not what im saying here im talking of what causes terrorisem and how to cure it...

by attacking a country beacuse a group attacked you from it is just asking for the creation of more groups like that...

why would i attack your neighbour if you are the one who broke my window?

im just asking for trouble...

iraq had nothing to do with terrorisem yet it was attacked and what has this all gained!? nothing but the creation of more terrorist groups...

The cure to terrorisem is the creation of true justice and nothing less...

And no innocent deserves to be killed...muslim ,christian or jew...

that is what we must stop...

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=Rou;392014]

This reasoning makes no sense as the reason terrorisem started is by creatin g an inbalance and strife in another peoples land and then ignoring or silencing there voices when they spoke up...

Are you referring to Palestine?

terrorisem is a very strange word? it is used majority of the time against those who have little means of attacking back at aggressors who are in there land and have an unfair advantages over there people...and those who attack back are called terrorists?

The problem I have with terrorist activities is that they target innocents. I undertand that most people who object to the reasons leading to terrorist activities do not actually support the act of terrorism itself.

agreed that to kill innocents is not part of our path...thats not what im saying here im talking of what causes terrorisem and how to cure it...

by attacking a country beacuse a group attacked you from it is just asking for the creation of more groups like that...

There is no denying that more terrorists will be created by attacking a country which harbors terrorists. I do agree with the political decision to attack countries which in fact do harbor terrorists.

why would i attack your neighbour if you are the one who broke my window?

im just asking for trouble...

iraq had nothing to do with terrorisem yet it was attacked and what has this all gained!? nothing but the creation of more terrorist groups...

Although some reports cite terrorist support within Iraq (prior to the war), I think there is more more evidence to suggest that Iraq was attacked more for self serving factors of President Bush. Afghanistan is a different issue.

The cure to terrorisem is the creation of true justice and nothing less...

I don't agree. I'm not saying that justice shouldn't be sought. I simply feel that terrorism is the incorrect method employed to seek justice.

And no innocent deserves to be killed...muslim ,christian or jew...

that is what we must stop...
Innocents never deserve to be killed. But since I'm unsympathetic toward terrorist activities I am unwilling to sacrifice the safety of my country for the innocents which reside in countries which harbor terrorists.

In the grand scheme of things I think that a country which defends itself against terrorist activities is less responsible for the deaths of innocents since war does not target innocents. Terrorism on the other hand does target innocents.

[Rou]

[quote=searchingsoul;392044]

In the grand scheme of things I think that a country which defends itself against terrorist activities is less responsible for the deaths of innocents since war does not target innocents. Terrorism on the other hand does target innocents.

This is the problem by justfying innocent deaths leads to anger...

and repriseles....

think if we all sought justice then we would ask for those groups to be stopped not countries attacked!??

for 3000 people who died on 9/11 how many children have been killed??

for 50 people in london dying how many thousands of lives have been displaced and destroyed?!??

thats not justice....

iraq was an excuse to gain power but afgan was not!?

its clear that bush and his gov are there to gain power at the cost of innocents deaths why would it be that they attacked afgan for any other reason but to gain foot holds and gain power?

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

by doing what bush did and knowingly at that he has created what the american people were told to fear...terrorists... he needed displaced children he needed surviovors of massacres so that they rise from ashes hating america and wanting revenge...afgan was to breed terrorists that did not ever before exist on such a level as they do today...

To be a hero you need a enemy...and bush created his...

indeed there were issues before 9/11 but the following of such groups was minute compared to today...

if there is anyone to blame for deaths due to terrorisem it is those goverments that back tyrants that harm innocents just so they can gain foot holds and power...and then ignore the pleas of innocents when they are harmed no i am not only reffering to palastine.. the rules of the UN and the running of the world has never been fair economics and inbalance that is created to keep power is what is unfair...

we all as good people should take these people out of power and find good leaders....

but until this is done there will be angry people and there will be wars...

justice is what is needed...when innocents are hurt we should speak up and there pleas not be ignored...

justice...

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=Rou;392055]

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

Did the government of Afghanistan back Osama Bin Laden?

[Rou]

[quote=searchingsoul;392059]

Did the government of Afghanistan back Osama Bin Laden?

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

if the UN went in and they were refused perhaps there would be grounds but if a country refuses to let your troops into there land and you attack the whole of it i can see why they might fight back..

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=Rou;392064]

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

if the UN went in and they were refused perhaps there would be grounds but if a country refuses to let your troops into there land and you attack the whole of it i can see why they might fight back..

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/02/...-bin-laden.htm

Afghanistan refused to expel Osama Bin Laden. In my opinion this justifies the invasion of Afghanistan. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories which paint Bin Laden as innocent. In theory even if Bin Laden was innocent it would have been in the best interest of the the Afghan people for him to be surrendered. Failure for the Afghan government to act in the best interest of their people resulted in many civilian losses. The USA government is not responsible for bad decisions carried out by the Taliban.

[HeiGou]

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

Well obviously they did not authorise the US to enter Afghanistan although the legal government of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance, did. But they did say they backed OBL. They refused to hand him over to the Americans.

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

They did opt to fight for him. They had a simply choice: they could hand him over or they could fight. They opted to fight. There was a long discussion with the Taliban. They refused to co-operate. Let me ask you to consider a parallel, some pirates attacks some Muslims in India and the local king could not hand the pirates over or restore the Muslims and their property. So the Muslim attacked India. Do you think that was wrong? Surely the Americans were provoked more seriously than the Muslims were?

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

How could OBL be brought to justice any other way? The only way to deal with terrorism is to kill them. They need to be rendered powerless and they need to serve as a warning to others. We do not negotiate with murderers or rapists. Or we should not. We jail them and execute them.

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

And what level of proof would have satisfied the Afghans you think? You know, given that most Muslims around here refuse to accept that OBL had anything to do with it despite his boasts - including you if I remember correctly. Invasion was the only way.

Hatred creates terrorism. Justice is the solution. Hatred is what Afghans have, but justice is what America is bringing.

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

As Muslims, our first and foremost "allegiance" is to Allaah and His Messenger (peace be upon him). This does not mean, however, that we do not obey the laws of the country in which we live, since we are commanded to fulfil our trusts and responsibilities, as the scholars of Islamqa.com write (in the context of stealing):

When a Muslim enters a kaafir country, it is as if he entering into a peaceful agreement with them – which is the visa which is given to him to enable him to enter their country – so if he takes their wealth unlawfully, then he is breaking that agreement, in addition to being a thief.

....

Al-Sarkhasi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not right for a Muslim who is on peaceful terms with them to betray them, because betrayal is haraam. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every betrayer will have a banner by his backside on the Day of Resurrection, by which his betrayal will be known.” If he betrays them and steals their wealth, and brings it to the Muslim lands, it is not right for a Muslim to buy from him if he knows about that, because he has obtained it in an evil manner, and buying from him is encouraging him in that, which it is not right for the Muslim to do. The basic principle in this matter is the hadeeth of al-Mugheerah ibn Shu’bah (may Allaah be pleased with him), when he killed his companions and brought their wealth to Madeenah and became Muslim, and asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to take the khums of his wealth, and he said, “As for your Islam, we accept it, and as for the wealth it is obtained through treachery, and we have no need of it.”

Al-Mabsoot, 10/96

Furthermore, we understand an important point in the following hadeeth:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." (Bukhari)

So we do not help our fellow Muslims if they are doing wrong by adding to their wrong, rather we enjoin the good and advise them to what is correct.

-----------

I will just add that this thread is going off-topic - the discussion about the caliphate does not belong here. I also came across the following comment,

What will scholars do!? they will say this verse is correct and this law is right that is by there opinion they are just as human as u and me...

allah gave us all the quran for us all to understand not just scholars...

there judgment will not find a leader there knowledge will help clairfy quranic verses...

a leader needs to be one who see's clearly what is needed and that is justice and he should not be afraid to stand up for it...

I think the status of the Scholars of Islaam is being seriously downplayed here, since it is with the help of their knowledge and understanding of the religion that we become better Muslims and learn about our religion, and it is only befitting that such people of knowledge make important decisions with regards to the Ummah. Let us not forget that the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and while the Qur'aan was revealed to all of mankind, the preservation of knowledge by and in-depth understanding of the Scholars (not limited to the science of the Qur'aan) enables us to understand its teachings properly, as well as the rest of the religion.

In my humble opinion, I believe discussions such as these (calling for a caliphate) hold very little benefit. Often we see people arguing over such matters when they themselves have so very little knowledge or actions to implement their words. I am not referring to specific individuals in this thread, but rather the general concept that is repeated on this forum.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims, in which case what happens if we die before a leader is appointed? Why not prepare ourselves to be able to accept a leader in the first place, and place our trust in Allaah who has promised a good end for the believers.

{And indeed We did send Messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) to their own peoples. They came to them with clear proofs, then, We took vengeance on those who committed crimes (disbelief, setting partners in worship with Allah, sins, etc.), and (as for) the believers it was incumbent upon Us to help (them)} [Qur'aan, 30:47]

{...And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers} [Qur'aan, 4:141]

May Allaah forgive me if I have said anything incorrect.

:w:

[Ghazi]

:sl:

calling for a caliphate)

This is where the problem lies, I have spoken to many muslims in regards to palistine iraq and other countries and I hear the same old "We need a caliphate" they say we need to be orginised before we can help the ummah, so I think we need to get orginised fast and revive the ummah fast.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims

we can do this while trying to implament an islamic state, but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

[------]

but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

Masha'Allah - very well said!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

islam will rise again one day and i WANNA SEE IT RISE WHILE IM ALIVE AND STILL ABLE TO FIGHT !!!!

if only i was like 25 or somethin people would take me a little more seriously, why'd i have to be 18 :heated:

[nimrod]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

That is a problem, all we have to do to see it is to have a look at what Rou is posting and many of the replies he is receiving.

Rou has repeatedly stated that Iraq was attacked for what happened on 9-11.

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

Iraq was attacked because Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire agreements made after he was driven from Kuwait.
Saddam was almost daily shooting at planes that were enforcing U.N. mandates.
Saddam refused to openly/transparently destroy his WMDs.
Saddam was making such a good effort at making everyone think he still possessed WMDs, that many of his top people believed he still had them and was ready to use them.

There is, still today, much doubt about if Saddam really destroyed the WMDs or shipped them out or hid them (much like he hid the jets in the sand).

That is why Saddam/Iraq was attacked.

The British soldier was lawfully carrying out his duties in a war that is being fought because Saddam refused to honor his agreements with the U.N.

The war in Afghanistan is being fought because Ben Laden thought it was a good idea to commit acts of terror against the USA. He claimed responsibility for the embassy bombings. He also claimed responsibility for other acts of terror.

Mostly the whole world believes, rightly so imo, that he is also responsible for 9-11.

Afghanistan refused to hand him over after he had committed several acts of war against the USA.
Afghanistan continued its support of the training bases ran by Bin Laden and in no way seemed to be doing anything other than enabling Bin Laden to continue to do what he had been doing.

So if the British soldier, of the Muslim persuasion, is killed fighting for British interests then he too is doing what is lawful.

It is perfectly legal and moral for two countries to enter into a mutual protection contract to assist one another in the lawful defense of their interests.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Ghazi]

islam will rise again one day and i WANNA SEE IT RISE WHILE IM ALIVE AND STILL ABLE TO FIGHT !!!!

if only i was like 25 or somethin people would take me a little more seriously, why'd i have to be 18 :heated:

:sl:

I've got that problem too I'm also 18, I remeber back in my jahil days everyone was like come to islam, no that I'm here I see people often put me down due to my age and say things like stick with the basics leave the big issues which effect the ummah subhanallah.

[Thanaa]

if you had to choose, what country would you owe your first allegiance to:
1. the country i live in.
2. the country of my ethnic group
3. the ummah

My Country.
No Question.:)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

I've got that problem too I'm also 18, I remeber back in my jahil days everyone was like come to islam, no that I'm here I see people often put me down due to my age and say things like stick with the basics leave the big issues which effect the ummah subhanallah.

ye bro i get that all the time

"why are you stressing, what can you do? Your one man, what difference can you make, you will cause trouble to your family, BLAH BLAH BLAH".

its like, you only get one life, one chance, do you want jannatul firdaus or the lowest jannah?
people just dont get this :heated:

:salamext:

[Ghazi]

:sl:

jannatul firdaus or the lowest jannah?

Exactly I want the best of the best instead of putting people down they should helping them succeed, I think the reason behind this is they see that they're not doing much so to make them selfs feel better they might try and stop others just an opinion.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Exactly I want the best of the best instead of putting people down they should helping them succeed, I think the reason behind this is they see that they're not doing much so to make them selfs feel better they might try and stop others just an opinion.

no they feel useless because they think even if they tried ye they cant achieve anything. The thing is no-ones tried, even i havent tried, right now am in the process of strengthening my imaan, but best believe mujaahid is the best way to go, so thats my path inshaAllah!!!

:salamext:

[Rou]

[quote=searchingsoul;392067]

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/02/...-bin-laden.htm

Afghanistan refused to expel Osama Bin Laden. In my opinion this justifies the invasion of Afghanistan. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories which paint Bin Laden as innocent. In theory even if Bin Laden was innocent it would have been in the best interest of the the Afghan people for him to be surrendered. Failure for the Afghan government to act in the best interest of their people resulted in many civilian losses. The USA government is not responsible for bad decisions carried out by the Taliban.

indeed we are all entitled to our opinion...and fair enough to yours but to attack a whole country on the basis of one man does not justfiy the deaths of innocents to me...just as today israel uses that excuse to take land in palastine again on the basis of one soilder...

these are games that are played in order to find favour through media...

and as for bin laden being innocent or guilty there is no proof either way...

him being guilty is just as much of a conspiracy as him being innocnt..

as i said before i have no problem with him being guilty or innocent i just prefr to know the truth of the matter..

either way what has happend has happend...allah is the best of judges...

may he guide us well..

[Rou]

Well obviously they did not authorise the US to enter Afghanistan although the legal government of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance, did. But they did say they backed OBL. They refused to hand him over to the Americans.



They did opt to fight for him. They had a simply choice: they could hand him over or they could fight. They opted to fight. There was a long discussion with the Taliban. They refused to co-operate. Let me ask you to consider a parallel, some pirates attacks some Muslims in India and the local king could not hand the pirates over or restore the Muslims and their property. So the Muslim attacked India. Do you think that was wrong? Surely the Americans were provoked more seriously than the Muslims were?



How could OBL be brought to justice any other way? The only way to deal with terrorism is to kill them. They need to be rendered powerless and they need to serve as a warning to others. We do not negotiate with murderers or rapists. Or we should not. We jail them and execute them.



And what level of proof would have satisfied the Afghans you think? You know, given that most Muslims around here refuse to accept that OBL had anything to do with it despite his boasts - including you if I remember correctly. Invasion was the only way.

Hatred creates terrorism. Justice is the solution. Hatred is what Afghans have, but justice is what America is bringing.

For one i would not attack india i would find those responsible and attack them...

what proof is there that OBL attacked US? could you provide some proof?

not random info the media provide proof not found in a random cave that looks as fake as they get to anyone with eyes...and what boasts!??

whats a terrorist? and you think by killing these types of terrorists you will stop them?>? you but dig the hole deeper...afganistan was a country now it has become a haven for terrorists and iraq they are rising from the ashes of war torn countries...

your making the mistake of including all terrorists in your mind as one they are not...

majority of terrorists attacking the west are doing so beacuse they feel treated unfairly and there voices are silenced therefore they take up arms...there links are not directed or linked with those terrorists in kashmir..

the two are totally diffrent issues and many indians are linking them as the same thing and so do others and thats when the trouble starts...

As for you saying OBL didnt do it that is not my concern its the facts that are how is this proven? if he has then fair enough bring him down but the facts dont link up...

bush's hunger for power and domination of oil and trade in the middle east seems quite obvious so i see no man taking bush down he sits in front of us all with quite clear motives...where is his punishment for breaking UN decisons and going into iraq?

where is his voice to stop israel why dont they land there troops in israel?

i have not condemnation for american people or christians or hindus or africans its the wrong doers i am intrested in...and those who ignore the crys of innocents...

where is there punishment?

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=Rou;392273]

indeed we are all entitled to our opinion...and fair enough to yours but to attack a whole country on the basis of one man does not justfiy the deaths of innocents to me...just as today israel uses that excuse to take land in palastine again on the basis of one soilder...

these are games that are played in order to find favour through media...

and as for bin laden being innocent or guilty there is no proof either way...

him being guilty is just as much of a conspiracy as him being innocnt..

as i said before i have no problem with him being guilty or innocent i just prefr to know the truth of the matter..

either way what has happend has happend...allah is the best of judges...

may he guide us well..

One probably has to believe in the guilt of Osama Bin Laden before the invasion would make sense. I understand your viewpoint but I still don't agree. But hey, that's okay too.

[Rou]

:sl: and Greetings,

As Muslims, our first and foremost "allegiance" is to Allaah and His Messenger (peace be upon him). This does not mean, however, that we do not obey the laws of the country in which we live, since we are commanded to fulfil our trusts and responsibilities, as the scholars of Islamqa.com write (in the context of stealing):





Furthermore, we understand an important point in the following hadeeth:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." (Bukhari)

So we do not help our fellow Muslims if they are doing wrong by adding to their wrong, rather we enjoin the good and advise them to what is correct.

-----------

I will just add that this thread is going off-topic - the discussion about the caliphate does not belong here. I also came across the following comment,

I think the status of the Scholars of Islaam is being seriously downplayed here, since it is with the help of their knowledge and understanding of the religion that we become better Muslims and learn about our religion, and it is only befitting that such people of knowledge make important decisions with regards to the Ummah. Let us not forget that the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and while the Qur'aan was revealed to all of mankind, the preservation of knowledge by and in-depth understanding of the Scholars (not limited to the science of the Qur'aan) enables us to understand its teachings properly, as well as the rest of the religion.

In my humble opinion, I believe discussions such as these (calling for a caliphate) hold very little benefit. Often we see people arguing over such matters when they themselves have so very little knowledge or actions to implement their words. I am not referring to specific individuals in this thread, but rather the general concept that is repeated on this forum.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims, in which case what happens if we die before a leader is appointed? Why not prepare ourselves to be able to accept a leader in the first place, and place our trust in Allaah who has promised a good end for the believers.

{And indeed We did send Messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) to their own peoples. They came to them with clear proofs, then, We took vengeance on those who committed crimes (disbelief, setting partners in worship with Allah, sins, etc.), and (as for) the believers it was incumbent upon Us to help (them)} [Qur'aan, 30:47]

{...And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers} [Qur'aan, 4:141]

May Allaah forgive me if I have said anything incorrect.

:w:

Perhaps you ar right perhaps you are wrong i guess only time will tell brother but what does a caliphate really mean?! what is being called for here? all i ask for is muslim unity even that sems a far fetched idea... someone somewhere needs to stop innocents dying just beacuse they were born muslim and in the middle east...

once that is done we can stop those who harm any innocents in any land...

how hard has it become to be muslim in a western country today? give it a few years andyou will notice more muslims becoming westernised...
where will our understanding be then? we need some unity to keep our needs in focus otherwise we will lose our way and we wont even know it..fair enough you are strong in faith as am i and many here but what of those who are not!? do they deserve not a message? do we just allow our religon to be waterd down as it is being planned??

there is no place for extremisem true...but what of the great effort being made to westernise muslims all around the globe?? iraq and afgan will be the new turkey...watered down versions of islam...

no one calls for war just protection for our people wether in the form of a caliphate or not we need unity...

[Rou]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

That is a problem, all we have to do to see it is to have a look at what Rou is posting and many of the replies he is receiving.

Rou has repeatedly stated that Iraq was attacked for what happened on 9-11.

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

Iraq was attacked because Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire agreements made after he was driven from Kuwait.
Saddam was almost daily shooting at planes that were enforcing U.N. mandates.
Saddam refused to openly/transparently destroy his WMDs.
Saddam was making such a good effort at making everyone think he still possessed WMDs, that many of his top people believed he still had them and was ready to use them.

There is, still today, much doubt about if Saddam really destroyed the WMDs or shipped them out or hid them (much like he hid the jets in the sand).

That is why Saddam/Iraq was attacked.

The British soldier was lawfully carrying out his duties in a war that is being fought because Saddam refused to honor his agreements with the U.N.

The war in Afghanistan is being fought because Ben Laden thought it was a good idea to commit acts of terror against the USA. He claimed responsibility for the embassy bombings. He also claimed responsibility for other acts of terror.

Mostly the whole world believes, rightly so imo, that he is also responsible for 9-11.

Afghanistan refused to hand him over after he had committed several acts of war against the USA.
Afghanistan continued its support of the training bases ran by Bin Laden and in no way seemed to be doing anything other than enabling Bin Laden to continue to do what he had been doing.

So if the British soldier, of the Muslim persuasion, is killed fighting for British interests then he too is doing what is lawful.

It is perfectly legal and moral for two countries to enter into a mutual protection contract to assist one another in the lawful defense of their interests.

Thanks
Nimrod

There were no WMDS...bush woke up one morning and guessed he would take out saddam to save evryone? i think not he had many years long before 9/11 he cud have done that...


MAjority of people are led to beleive iraq was to do with 9/11 and it helps them accept why it happend its a mind game and afgna was not lawful as one man is not worth the killing and destruction that took place in afgan...the way many innocents ere killed there is not only sick but higly disturbing...fair enough taliban were taken out of goverment and instead now we have the ruthless northen allince in control i guess happy days...they raped and tortured and killed more people than the taliban ever did..

and again i have no problem accpting OBL done what he did if the proof leads to that but so far wheres the proof? pls state it ...

the tape? have a look at the tape and look at thousands of pics of OBL its not him...and if its not him then why is there a tape mae to look like him??
why lie?

[Muhammad]

:sl:

we can do this while trying to implament an islamic state, but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

Question :

My question is regarding the Islamic political system:

What is our priority in the present situation when we don't have a Khalifa: Do we educate people of Islam first before establishing an Islamic state or do we establish the State first? Or do they go hand in hand?

What is the majority of the scholars say about it? Or what is the most correct opinion

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

What is required of every Muslim is to practise the religion of Allaah as much as he is able to. The imaamah (Islamic political leadership) has been prescribed for the purpose of establishing the religion of Allaah. No one should think that the fact that there is no imaam at any given time in any given country means that we can be negligent and introverted and not practise or establish any aspect of the religion. Among the people of misguidance during this age and at other times there are those who say that we do not need to establish any of the symbols of Islam until a khaleefah has been appointed over the Muslims and the Islamic state has been established. This is one of the worst kinds of misguidance, and believing this leads to abandoning Jumu’ah prayers, prayer in jamaa’ah, Hajj, jihaad, collecting zakaah, prayer for rain (istisqaa’), Eid prayers, appointing imaams for mosques, calling the adhaan and other things, which amounts to cancelling the rulings of Islam. What do the people who say this have to say about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “So keep your duty to Allaah and fear Him as much as you can” [al-Taghaabun 64:16]? What do they have to say about the hadeeth, “Whatever I command you to do, do as much of it as you can”? It is obligatory to take care of all matters of religion, starting with the most important, then the next most important, so we should study the religion of Allaah, the most important aspect of which is knowledge of the teaching of Tawheed, then establishing the symbols and rituals of Islam and the other duties. No doubt occupying oneself with these things is the most important thing, and each person should do everything that he is able to do. There cannot be an Islamic state without proper understanding of the religion and achieving eemaan (faith) and Tawheed, and ridding ourselves of shirk, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah has promised those among you who believe and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the land, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And He will surely, give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me” [al-Noor 24:55].

The Messenger

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stayed in Makkah for thirteen years, calling people to Allaah and teaching Tawheed and ‘Aqeedah, reciting the Revelation to them, debating to the kuffaar with in the best manner, bearing their persecution with patience, as well as praying and establishing the acts of worship which had been prescribed at that time. He did not forgo teaching the religion, although the Islamic state had not been established in Makkah at that time. Moreover, how can an Islamic state be established without an ideological foundation and a society of Muslims who been educated in the religion and have learned it thoroughly? He spoke the truth who said: Establish the Islamic state in yourselves, and it will be established for you in your land. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

And remember, there are many ways to achieve Paradise:

{Successful indeed are the believers. Those who offer their Salat (prayers) with all solemnity and full submissiveness. And those who turn away from Al-Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk, falsehood, and all that Allah has forbidden). And those who pay the Zakat . And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame; But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors; Those who are faithfully true to their Amanat (all the duties which Allah has ordained, honesty, moral responsibility and trusts etc.) and to their covenants; And those who strictly guard their (five compulsory congregational) Salawat (prayers) (at their fixed stated hours). These are indeed the inheritors. Who shall inherit the Firdaus (Paradise). They shall dwell therein forever} [Qur'aan, 23:1-11]

An individual might not be able to unite the whole of the Ummah, but he can contribute to the society in which he lives by learning and teaching, spreading the message of Islaam - and if everyone were to be like this, perhaps unity would be achieved without the need to call for it!

Regarding age, young people are not usually in a position to be making decisions about the leadership of the Ummah, especially when they still have many things to learn; many things which are only acquired through experience. Insha'Allaah, this Q&A will help to demonstrate that speaking about this subject without knowledge is fruitless. Do we really know what a khaleefah is in the first place and how to go about appointing one? And are we really in a position to be appraising the suitability of scholars? There are some things that concern the lay public, and there are others which none but scholars are qualified to deal with.

:w:

Greetings nimrod,

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

I thought I should mention that I have not read the entire thread and neither have perhaps many others, so perhaps it is best to wait a while or at least take into consideration the viewpoint of others. Thank you.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

This is one of the worst kinds of misguidance, and believing this leads to abandoning Jumu’ah prayers, prayer in jamaa’ah, Hajj, jihaad, collecting zakaah, prayer for rain (istisqaa’), Eid prayers, appointing imaams for mosques, calling the adhaan and other things, which amounts to cancelling the rulings of Islam.

Ok then if this is the case why have people neglected jihad don't they se the excuse we need a islamic state, and what are we supposed to do sit back and watch and yet say we love our brothers and sisters who are being oppressed things like this confuse me?

[Muhammad]

:sl:

Is jihad invalid if there is no khaleefah?

[nimrod]

Rou, thank you for pointing out that Saddam had many years to come into compliance with the U.N. mandates.

Would you have bet your life on the fact Saddam had no WMDs at the time GWB decided to deal head-on with Saddam’s refusals to comply with the U.N. mandates?

Would you bet your loved ones lives on Saddam having not hid or shipped out some of his WMDs?

Do you believe those coalition members fighting in Afghanistan are not/have not taken many measures to limit the innocents there?

Your loyalties are clearly more toward your own interpretations of events, rather to any reasonable reasoning’s.

Your loyalties seem to be clearly with the defense of a Muslim, regardless of what he plainly did.


Have you not seem Bin Laden himself state that he was behind the USA embassy bombings?

Is your retort going to be that, that doesn’t mean he had anything to do with 9-11?

Does his past actions and stated intents not make you have a fairly firm belief that he was also involved in what happened on 9-11????????

Good grief.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Rou, I can't help but feel this discussion is leading the thread off-topic.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I will leave it at that.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Rou]

[quote=searchingsoul;392292]

One probably has to believe in the guilt of Osama Bin Laden before the invasion would make sense. I understand your viewpoint but I still don't agree. But hey, that's okay too.

Thats not true in any case how can displacing thousands of people and killing thousands more make sense for the hunt of one man?

but indeed your opinion is yours that is not a problem...

[ishkabab]

[QUOTE=Rou;392055]

This is the problem by justfying innocent deaths leads to anger...

and repriseles....

think if we all sought justice then we would ask for those groups to be stopped not countries attacked!??

for 3000 people who died on 9/11 how many children have been killed??

for 50 people in london dying how many thousands of lives have been displaced and destroyed?!??

thats not justice....

iraq was an excuse to gain power but afgan was not!?

its clear that bush and his gov are there to gain power at the cost of innocents deaths why would it be that they attacked afgan for any other reason but to gain foot holds and gain power?

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

by doing what bush did and knowingly at that he has created what the american people were told to fear...terrorists... he needed displaced children he needed surviovors of massacres so that they rise from ashes hating america and wanting revenge...afgan was to breed terrorists that did not ever before exist on such a level as they do today...

To be a hero you need a enemy...and bush created his...

indeed there were issues before 9/11 but the following of such groups was minute compared to today...

if there is anyone to blame for deaths due to terrorisem it is those goverments that back tyrants that harm innocents just so they can gain foot holds and power...and then ignore the pleas of innocents when they are harmed no i am not only reffering to palastine.. the rules of the UN and the running of the world has never been fair economics and inbalance that is created to keep power is what is unfair...

we all as good people should take these people out of power and find good leaders....

but until this is done there will be angry people and there will be wars...

justice is what is needed...when innocents are hurt we should speak up and there pleas not be ignored...

justice...

MashAllah....good words spoken indeed!

[Rou]

Rou, thank you for pointing out that Saddam had many years to come into compliance with the U.N. mandates.

Would you have bet your life on the fact Saddam had no WMDs at the time GWB decided to deal head-on with Saddam’s refusals to comply with the U.N. mandates?

Would you bet your loved ones lives on Saddam having not hid or shipped out some of his WMDs?

Do you believe those coalition members fighting in Afghanistan are not/have not taken many measures to limit the innocents there?

Your loyalties are clearly more toward your own interpretations of events, rather to any reasonable reasoning’s.

Your loyalties seem to be clearly with the defense of a Muslim, regardless of what he plainly did.


Have you not seem Bin Laden himself state that he was behind the USA embassy bombings?

Is your retort going to be that, that doesn’t mean he had anything to do with 9-11?

Does his past actions and stated intents not make you have a fairly firm belief that he was also involved in what happened on 9-11????????

Good grief.

Thanks
Nimrod

perhaps you should calm down...

as i clearly stated i have no problem with OBL being punished if he commited this crime...what i was looking at was the proof that has been provided seems very vauge and also the events that have followed 9/11 seem very much in favour of enlarging bushes pockets rather than bringing justice...

those fighting in afganistan have not taken measures to protect innocents or the fighting taliban that surredered...

many have been slaughterd after giving up arms...

the crimes being commited in afgan are more so than iraq i would say diffrence is less are being repeorted and there is less security for the people there...

while our eye is fixed on iraq afganis suffer...

im not here to clear OBL or condemn bush? im here to make sure my peoples suffering is not gone unheard for there is suffering and something must be done by american civilians as well as muslims and the world...

why should innocents suffer in silence...

wether the evil doer be muslim or otherwise i would seek justice upon him..

he should pay for commiting crimes against the innocent...

wether it be OBL or Bush...

where as OBL cant be found bush lives in lavish houses while the people he has commited crimes against cry every night and suffer over and over...

where is the justice there?

[Rou]

Rou, I can't help but feel this discussion is leading the thread off-topic.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I will leave it at that.

Thanks
Nimrod

Fair enough...

Allah is the best of judges we will see when our time comes...

Peace be with you...

[snakelegs]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

hi nimrod,
after i set up the poll, i realized that i should have asked "what if the non-muslim country you live in were attacked by a muslim country?"

i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of afghanistan and i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of iraq. i don't accept the reasons given as justifiable or for that matter, necessarily true.
i don't find it either moral or rational to drop thousands of bombs on a country under the pretext for looking for a group of bad guys. quite a while after our invasion of afghanistan bush himself even said that he didn't think OBL was all that important!

i do not think that either afghanistan or iraq were a threat to the US.

i also strongly object to bush's "either you're with us or you're with the terrorists" slogan.

i am also angry that these invasions have caused a much more real threat of terrorist attacks we are more at risk now than we were then, and it just gets worse every single day.

as for the british soldier, i think it was wrong for people to be passing judgment on the man and in general, people should leave that kind of stuff up to god and stop trying to do god's job for him.

[SASB]

the country i live in cause i don't know what u mean by the Ummah.........

[Rou]

hi nimrod,
after i set up the poll, i realized that i should have asked "what if the non-muslim country you live in were attacked by a muslim country?"

i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of afghanistan and i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of iraq. i don't accept the reasons given as justifiable or for that matter, necessarily true.
i don't find it either moral or rational to drop thousands of bombs on a country under the pretext for looking for a group of bad guys. quite a while after our invasion of afghanistan bush himself even said that he didn't think OBL was all that important!

i do not think that either afghanistan or iraq were a threat to the US.

i also strongly object to bush's "either you're with us or you're with the terrorists" slogan.

i am also angry that these invasions have caused a much more real threat of terrorist attacks we are more at risk now than we were then, and it just gets worse every single day.

as for the british soldier, i think it was wrong for people to be passing judgment on the man and in general, people should leave that kind of stuff up to god and stop trying to do god's job for him.

sorry which british soilder does everyone keep reffering to?

whats this all about?

is this the british muslim soilder who died?

[snakelegs]

rou,
it's " 'Muslim' Soldier dies in Afghanistan..."
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...anistan-2.html

[Rou]

rou,
it's " 'Muslim' Soldier dies in Afghanistan..."
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...anistan-2.html

ahh indeed i thought so..thanx for that i have already commented on his circumstances...

[nimrod]

Snake Legs, I will keep my opinions to myself, as any thing I might wish to post would likely further side-track your thread.

Thanks
Nimrod

[KAding]

Ironically this desire to establish a Caliphate is weaking the Muslim world and not strengthening it. Mainly because of this military approach to the establishment of the Caliphate results in so much in-fighting among Muslims. There are a million Muslims saying 'I want to fight for Allah' or even 'I'll be the new Caliph' and then go fight other Muslims. This approach will not work and betrays a lack of patience.

I think you should first and foremost attempt to make the individual Muslim nations strong and prosperous. Then you can strive for a Caliphate based on 'an ever closer union' of Muslim states. "Unity in diversity" should be your motto, not "Unity and I'll kill anyone trying to be different" ;).

First you need wealthy and educated (both secular and religious) populations. Otherwise you will never know stability. since poor countries hardly ever know stability. When there is wealth there will be strong institutions, institutions that will be legitimate and can eventually form part of a federal Caliphate. I think you guys should build your caliphate based on a EU model, ie. one of slow steps towards peaceful integration and where 'diversity' is celebrated and not repressed in the name of 'unity'.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a kaffir :p.

[KAding]

So let me reiterate:

1. All Muslims must strive to bring stability to the Muslim nations

• No starting jihads in Muslim countries
• No violent resistance against 'un-Islamic' leaders
• No tirades against nationalism and diversity
• Accept the rule of law and the states monopoly on violence

2. Stability and lack of conflict will lead to higher economic growth
3. This will lead to more money for education and prosperity
4. A middle-class will rise that can wield considerable political influence
5. This middle-class will demand political reforms, a push towards more democracy (shura if you will)
6. Strong and stable political and economic institutions will rise
7. Since this concept of 'Ummah' is central in Islamic ideology Muslim countries will be inclined to cooperate
8. A supra-national organisation can be set up that brings together all the Muslim nations, firstly only on some policy areas
9. A slow process of an 'ever closer union' is started whereby sovereignty is transferred to the supra-national organisation
10. A federal structure is slowly developed and the supra-national organization becomes responsible for foreign policy and defence
11. Elect a president and call him a caliph

Voila, you have your Caliphate! Act local, think global! First get the countries in order, then work on uniting them! Besides, creating stong and stable independent nations will also discourage foreign intervention.

Easy peasy ;). Good luck! I'm guessing it'll take a century or so, depending on the Muslims entrepreneurial skills. Getting through point 2 and 3 will be the biggest challenge. Then uniting these stable countries will come easier because of the pan-Islamic nationalism that is engrained in Islamic theory.

[Sis786]

This is difficult my loyalty is with both country and Ummah and i hope that i dont have to choose!

[Ghazi]

:sl:

No starting jihads in Muslim countries

The Jihad will continue till the invaders leave our lands, what would 'Britain' do if it was suddenly invaded by 'Germany'?

[KAding]

:sl:

The Jihad will continue till the invaders leave our lands, what would 'Britain' do if it was suddenly invaded by 'Germany'?

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant jihad against their own Muslim governments.

Nevertheless, it might be smart to wait with for example the destruction of Israel until you are stronger. Continuously calling for war, but not having the true means to really wage it and be victorious is hardly a good approach. Such a poicy is driven by emotion and not rational. Wars like that weaken Muslims, not strengthen them. Similarly, most of the jihad in, say, Iraq is waged against fellow Muslims. The Iraqi police and Iraqi army are the primary target of the jihadist. This is another example of Muslim infighting, it does more harm to the cause then good.

Keep in mind that there are only a few places where Muslims are being 'occupied'. The majority of the Muslim world is not occupied by foreign invaders.

[Rou]

:sl:

The Jihad will continue till the invaders leave our lands, what would 'Britain' do if it was suddenly invaded by 'Germany'?

no starting jihads? lol depends what you think a jihad is???

jihad dont mean war ya know not directed at you islam truth at whoever mentioned it...

[KAding]

no starting jihads? lol depends what you think a jihad is???

jihad dont mean war ya know not directed at you islam truth at whoever mentioned it...

I made that comment. Ok, fair enough. Then I mean violent struggle in the name of Islam against other Muslims.

[Hijaabi22]

i voted 4 the wrong 1 by accident!!! I voted 4 the country of my ethnic origin but tehn i saw the ummah option n i wudda gne 4 dat!

[Rou]

I made that comment. Ok, fair enough. Then I mean violent struggle in the name of Islam against other Muslims.

fair enough

[snakelegs]

so if you can just get KAding to revert, he would be one fine caliph!
he's got it right.

[north_malaysian]

so if you can just get KAding to revert, he would be one fine caliph!
he's got it right.

Anybody here interested to be a Caliph of Muslim Ummah? :rollseyes

[syilla]

haha...ur funny...

by the way i choose ummah...(but i don't really understand the question)

I still do not understand why everyone keep saying nationalism is like only loving our country and hate other country...

shouldn't we think nationalism is like loving our own family....but you also have obligations to other family too(to help them if they in need help). I mean...shouldn't we help ourselves...so that we can be strong and unite and then...from there we can help others too...

I love my country...but i want to travel all over the world too....to see other countries...their culture...to understand people better. Allah has create every human in this world different from others.... If there is no country exists....there wouldn't be makkah or madinah.

[Amat Allah]

After Allah

of course

THE UMMAH

just like what our dear great prophet

Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allaah

be upon him)

did.

He was suffering and torturing

to save his ummah from being

lost,from loosing their real land

their promised land Al jannah

Jazak Allah the paradise

mashaa Allah it is great topic

THER IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH

[Muezzin]

haha...ur funny...

by the way i choose ummah...(but i don't really understand the question)

I still do not understand why everyone keep saying nationalism is like only loving our country and hate other country...

Patriotism is loving your country. Nationalism is believing your country to be superior to others.

As for my first allegiance, I have no idea. The ultimate litmus test? Alien invasion.

Welcome to Earth! *zap zap*