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Sis786
07-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Did you do the 2mins Silence for the 7/7 Victims

:sl:

We just done our 2 mins at work and im kinda overcome with emotion and i feel really sad, but i used that 2 mins to pray for those that passed away and prayed for peace.

I think that those aint should it is a nice way of uniting!
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Ghazi
07-07-2006, 11:10 AM
:sl:

I saw it but didn't do the silence thing
Reply

aakhirah
07-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Did you do the 2mins Silence for the 7/7 Victims
There was a 2 mins silent at 12pm in the reception area at my workplace. In my opinion, the desk sufficed but I waited to see what the others around me would do (after all, I have to show I'm integrating!). Luckily, most of them stayed put so I followed suit. But, I was busy reading a fatwaa (on an important issue) so was, in effect, silent!

i used that 2 mins to pray for those that passed away
Hopefully, you didn't just limit the prayers to those that were killed last year, and you spared part of the 2 mins (at the very least) for the oppressed Muslims around the world who have no-one to fall silent for them.

:w:

A.
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Malaikah
07-07-2006, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by aakhirah
Hopefully, you didn't just limit the prayers to those that were killed last year, and you spared part of the 2 mins (at the very least) for the oppressed Muslims around the world who have no-one to fall silent for them.
:sl:

not that they will benefit in anyway from such a silence :rollseyes but im sure they are in the dua of many Muslims.. we dont need some kind of special silence for that
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aakhirah
07-07-2006, 11:46 AM
not that they will benefit in anyway from such a silence ... we dont need some kind of special silence for that
I simply used the comparison as a reminder to us all that there are also other victims of (state) terrorism, and the like, who are being killed this very minute and that not to think about them would indeed be a great injustice.

:w:

A.
Reply

Hijaabi22
07-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Sis786
Did you do the 2mins Silence for the 7/7 Victims

:sl:

We just done our 2 mins at work and im kinda overcome with emotion and i feel really sad, but i used that 2 mins to pray for those that passed away and prayed for peace.

I think that those aint should it is a nice way of uniting!
2 mins silence?? dats RIDICULOUS!!! We dont even have 2 secs silence 4 all our bros n sisters in Iraq n Palestine so wast all dat bout! i aint takin part in such a thing!!! :rant:
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by ------------
2 mins silence?? dats RIDICULOUS!!! We dont even have 2 secs silence 4 all our bros n sisters in Iraq n Palestine so wast all dat bout! i aint takin part in such a thing!!! :rant:
Why compare, Killing is killing and those that die everyday in Palestine and Iraq are remembered i hope everyday by us but there is no reason to replace one with the other.

My prayers aint limited and the 2 mins silence is a way of reminding those of what happened and the state that the world is in now. I normally may not at 12pm stopped and rememberd those that died and thanked allah SWT so this cant be ridiculous.

And lets not forget the Victims parents and families im sure they dont find this ridiculous so please be careful what you say!
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Hijaabi22
07-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
Why compare, Killing is killing and those that die everyday in Palestine and Iraq are remembered i hope everyday by us but there is no reason to replace one with the other.

My prayers aint limited and the 2 mins silence is a way of reminding those of what happened and the state that the world is in now. I normally may not at 12pm stopped and rememberd those that died and thanked allah SWT so this cant be ridiculous.

And lets not forget the Victims parents and families im sure they dont find this ridiculous so please be careful what you say!
NOPE I STILL STAND BY WHAT IS SED! I mean course i feel for the families hu were involved but things like this happen 24 7 in Iraq n Palestine how cum we dont get 2 mins silence for them on MARCH 20 TH when the iraq war started??? DAT WAS THE DAY OF MY 17TH BIRTHDAY ILL NEVER FORGET THAT EVER!!!!
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Malaikah
07-07-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
And lets not forget the Victims parents and families im sure they dont find this ridiculous so please be careful what you say!
:sl:

Actually in a way it is rather ridiculous, the way nationalism has taken over and the only events that deserve a special moment are those that happened to people of that country. Human suffering shouldnt be remembered and shown respect (or what ever the silence signifies) simply because those involved belong to the same nation. At the end of the day we are all human.
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Hijaabi22
07-07-2006, 12:07 PM
yea true man and if muslims can do a 2 mins silence for the non muslims why cant they do the same 4 us 2>!
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by ------------
NOPE I STILL STAND BY WHAT IS SED! I mean course i feel for the families hu were involved but things like this happen 24 7 in Iraq n Palestine how cum we dont get 2 mins silence for them on MARCH 20 TH when the iraq war started??? DAT WAS THE DAY OF MY 17TH BIRTHDAY ILL NEVER FORGET THAT EVER!!!!
Sis what is stopping you from doing the 2 min silence for those Muslims! No one is restricting you.

7/7 happened in this country and so its obvious that the 2 mins silence would take place for them BUT as a Muslim what is stopping you from remembering the Palestine and Iraq!

And these 2 mins can be a time to think and pray for them Muslims too!
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Malaikah
07-07-2006, 12:10 PM
:sl:

Just wondering, would it be considered imitating the kuffar to go along with the silence thing? :?:rollseyes
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Hijaabi22
07-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
Sis what is stopping you from doing the 2 min silence for those Muslims! No one is restricting you.

7/7 happened in this country and so its obvious that the 2 mins silence would take place for them BUT as a Muslim what is stopping you from remembering the Palestine and Iraq!

And these 2 mins can be a time to think and pray for them Muslims too!
sum1 obviously feels very strong bout this :rollseyes lol

Nothin is stoppin me 4rm duin the 2 min silence 4 those muslims im jus makin a point, Why cant we have 2 min silence 4 them like we had 1 4 7 7 2day?! EH? ANSWR ME !! NOW!! lol me out off 2 cruizeeeeee or me wudda kept this debate goin on 45 much longer l8-erz!!
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

Actually in a way it is rather ridiculous, the way nationalism has taken over and the only events that deserve a special moment are those that happened to people of that country. Human suffering shouldnt be remembered and shown respect (or what ever the silence signifies) simply because those involved belong to the same nation. At the end of the day we are all human.
But that is what i am saying. Britian at 12pm stood still and us British Muslims did also but who said we should only remember those involved in 7/7 or those involved in War the 2 min silence is a time to reflect on all things,

And you are right this should take place everyday But what i am saying is that at 12pm today i remembered Allah SWT thanked God and prayed for peace where usually i may not have! So can the 2 mins be ridiculous if more people done this too
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by ------------
sum1 obviously feels very strong bout this :rollseyes lol

Nothin is stoppin me 4rm duin the 2 min silence 4 those muslims im jus makin a point, Why cant we have 2 min silence 4 them like we had 1 4 7 7 2day?! EH? ANSWR ME !! NOW!! lol me out off 2 cruizeeeeee or me wudda kept this debate goin on 45 much longer l8-erz!!
I do and i never thought i would but in that 2 min silence i was really overcome maybe because i never really really thought about the victims and so on. The 2 min silence made me soo sad as i knew that these people died and more are dying like this everyday!

Like i said Sis NO ONE is stopping us Muslims having 2 mins silence everyday! But dont blame the Gov or Britain for that its ourselves caught up in daily life, and today was a proof of that
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-07-2006, 12:25 PM
i've thought about those victims that have died a lot previously and made dua for the, the silence is not necessary, i think the main reason for the silence is to build up the emotions of most of the citizens.

I say keep them in your dua's, have your own silence inshaAllah.

:salamext:
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
i've thought about those victims that have died a lot previously and made dua for the,
:salamext:
I never and im not gonna lie about that, But today i have!
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
I never and im not gonna lie about that, But today i have!
then mashAllah, i gess it brings attention to the people and builds up there emotion, and who knows, these dua's could results in some peoples peace for the akhirah inshaAllah (some muslims i mean).

Now lets make dua for those costantly dying in palestine/iraq/afghan etc, i always try to remember them at tahajjud as thats when prayers are most likely to be answered inshaAllah do the same.

:salamext:
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
Now lets make dua for those costantly dying in palestine/iraq/afghan etc, i always try to remember them at tahajjud as thats when prayers are most likely to be answered inshaAllah do the same.

:salamext:
Inshallah Bro make dua for all dead and alive it seems the bad times are ahead!
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-07-2006, 12:51 PM
the thing which emotionally got me most is when i heard all those children at the gaza strip died, i thnk the numbers rose above 1000. subhanAllah :(

But there all destined for jannah Alhamdullilah so no need to stress.
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Ghazi
07-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by ------------
2 mins silence?? dats RIDICULOUS!!! We dont even have 2 secs silence 4 all our bros n sisters in Iraq n Palestine so wast all dat bout! i aint takin part in such a thing!!! :rant:
:sl:

It's simple the majority of the British public only care what happens to it and it's allies.
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strider
07-07-2006, 01:44 PM
Assalamu alaikum

I'm in agreement with sister Sis786. Well said! :)

Ma'assalama
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by strider
Assalamu alaikum

I'm in agreement with sister Sis786. Well said! :)

Ma'assalama
Thanks sis!
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Sahabiyaat
07-07-2006, 03:04 PM
what exactly is the benifit of being silent for two minutes ?

does it imply that we remember those victims for 2 mins and then get back to work ....i think its more disrespectful than respectful
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Sis786
07-07-2006, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by muslimahimprovin
what exactly is the benifit of being silent for two minutes ?

does it imply that we remember those victims for 2 mins and then get back to work ....i think its more disrespectful than respectful
But isnt it better then not remembering at all!
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Muezzin
07-07-2006, 05:17 PM
Um... at what time exactly was this silence supposed to be observed?
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------
07-07-2006, 05:52 PM
Wasn't it at 12ish @ GMT tym?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
07-07-2006, 05:59 PM
I didn't know it was happening. But that's probably because i'm in Holland at the moment. I wouldn't do it anyway. How about a silence for all the victims of war? What will a silence do for someone anyway? Better to make duá that Allah has mercy on them, and eases their family's pain.
W'salaam
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Ghazi
07-07-2006, 06:19 PM
:sl:

I THINK THERE'S TOO MUCH SILENCE IN REGARDS TO THE WAR ON TERROR.
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S_87
07-07-2006, 06:23 PM
:sl:

no because a two minutes silence isnt going to do anything b i didnt even know what time we were supposed to be quiet
loads of muslims are being killed and their deaths are going like their lives meant nothing
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Abdul-Raouf
07-07-2006, 06:26 PM
There Are Daily Bombings In Iraq, Palestine .... But None Of Those People Remember Them...... But If A Single Bomb Explodes In Their Country And Few R Killed... Then They Mark That Day And Remember Annually...........
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Ghazi
07-07-2006, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Muzammil
There Are Daily Bombings In Iraq, Palestine .... But None Of Those People Remember Them...... But If A Single Bomb Explodes In Their Country And Few R Killed... Then They Mark That Day And Remember Annually...........
:sl:

It's the same for most nations.
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Umar001
07-07-2006, 06:35 PM
I done it involentarily i was t akin a nap.

I never do the 2 min thing on my own type thing, I dont see why, even before islam in the sense that, whenever people do it, to me its like making others remember, where as if I died I wouldnt want people to feel as thought they have to keep the silence, if they want to they can thats all.

But I dont see the practical need for it, respect is shown through the way we will live everyday life. keepin silence 4 2 minutes aint that much of a thing specially considering that alot of people jus thinkin about it then and then dont ever :(

Plus I think we were made to observe the silence for 9/11 too, I mean so its not jus a uk accident thing.

Anyhow, I would love to have all muslims in the world hold a two minute silence at 12:00 on a day that would bring unity, whether they at work or schol or what ever, true unity and an opportunity for da'wah
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-07-2006, 08:10 PM
i was thinking, the unjust ways of this country may vexx some people so much that they may decide to bomb them more so they get more of a feeling of what palestine/iraq etc go through. I mean just for one day they make such a huge issue when palestinians suffer like this everyday, in order for them to "feel better" they would have to do a 10 hours silence everyday!
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-07-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
I done it involentarily i was t akin a nap.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, funniest thing EEVER!!! ;D ;D , i think i was doing it involuntarily myself, i was fixin a computer :D :D

:salamext:
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Umar001
07-07-2006, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, funniest thing EEVER!!! ;D ;D , i think i was doing it involuntarily myself, i was fixin a computer :D :D

:salamext:

Lol

Well I hope it wasnt shown to be disrespectful to the people that died. I just dont see the point in the minute silence. It fastruates me sometimes, in the sense that some people are so excessive about taking this minute silence.

yet if you were to ask people what would u want people to take from your death if you die. people would say stuff like 'I want people to realise how special life is' or 'I want people not to moan about little things' 'I want people not to take their family for granted'

hardly anyone would say I wanta minute silence, so logically, if most people wud say such things, if we were to reallly want to respect them then we would do the things such as not take life for granted, yet people do the minute silence and then straight after moan about a bus being late or about not being allowed to go to the pub because their wife needs them.

I hate that!
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Umar001
07-07-2006, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Daffodil
I apoligise.
Apology accepted sister.
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searcheroftruth
07-08-2006, 02:27 AM
whats 2mins Silence gonna do for the victims and why are the muslims imitating the kuffar
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-08-2006, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by searcheroftruth
whats 2mins Silence gonna do for the victims and why are the muslims imitating the kuffar
Yeeeee! :anger:

i jus think its pointless :?, giv charity and make dua ;) thats betta :)
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------
07-08-2006, 11:03 AM
Agreed :thumbs_up
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Muezzin
07-08-2006, 12:34 PM
People. Chill out. It's happened now, it's in the past. If you don't like an idea of a minute's silence, that's fine - just don't disrespect those who do.

For the record, I don't find the whole minutes silence thing respectful - it's like, 'oh I'll just remember for 60 seconds, then get on with my life'. Remembrance is a lifelong process, not just for two minutes on a particular day.

That said, if people choose to observe it, I respect their choice, even though I might disagree.
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Trumble
07-08-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

It's simple the majority of the British public only care what happens to it and it's allies.
In that case I look forward to the seeing links to stories and photos showing muslims outside the UK observing this two minutes silence, demonstrating they do not behave in exactly the same way.
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Sweet_Boy
07-08-2006, 05:21 PM
well we were in history class our lesson ended at 12 ... exactly the school bell went for end of the lesson ... and out teachers didnt realise he talked through it himself ... lol ... we only did it for like 10 seconds untill he realised
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limitless
07-09-2006, 12:01 AM
:sl:

No


:w:
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Skillganon
07-09-2006, 01:11 AM
I did not do the 2minutes silence, i think I was sleep or doing my breakfast. I slept late. Personaly it does not mean much to me, because it won't help them where they will be going. I see nothing productive of it, but I will not disrespect it. If we going to have this every year, than I think we have a problem, physcologically for the general people and mentally for the ones who lost someone i.e reaffirming fear via direct rememberence of the event, and affirming deep anguish of the loved one. This two combination can be a potent mix, for international political agenda and further problem within the society in times to come. All we can do is find viable and thoughtful solution and not too much dwelling on the past, if we wan't to progress.
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SirZubair
07-09-2006, 01:40 AM
Some of the comments i have read in this thread Disgusts me.

Especially when it is coming from those who continously go on and on about "I FOLLOW THE QURAN AND SUNNAH",some of you sound like nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.

If you don't want to have a 2minute of silence for those that passed away on the 7/7,then Don't,but DO NOT make stupid comments such as "What about the muslims who die daily.." "..what about those in afghanistan.." "..what about those in iraq"..

..PERSONALLY,i didnt stay silent for 2minutes,simply because i didnt realised what day it was.Even if i did remember that the bombing occured on 7/7,i still wouldn't have done it. Simply because i dont see any benefit in it.

As Abd'Majid pointed out,Make Dua for them. (thanks bro,im glad someone has commen sense in this thread). (actually,i've just noticed that there are a couple more people that have been sensible.such as the person who posted above me and a couple others)(But still..come on,we can do better than this! )

Back to what i was saying..
..It is disgusting..sickening when a muslim says things such as those that i have quoted above.

What are you getting at?

The blood of a palestinian is worth more than the blood of a brit?

The blood of an iraqi is worth more than the blood of a brit?

The blood of an Afghani is worth more than the blood of a brit??

EVERY DROP of blood is SACRED.It doesnt matter if it is the blood of a BRIT,an Iraqi,a Palestinian,..A Jew,a Christian,A Hindu.

Those who keep on telling me "i follow the quran...",im sure you recognise this verse :

"anyone who has killed a person (unjustly),it is as if he has killed all of humanity.."
(correct me if i am wrong)..

..if you read that carefully,it DOES NOT say "anyone that has killed a MUSLIM..." it says "A PERSON".

I dont think that needs anymore explaining.

Remember what the prophet of ALlah said :

"There is no place in my religon for a man who has had mercy removed from his heart"
There is still time brothers and sisters,Learn to have mercy on others,regardless of their religon,nationality,creed...whatever.

"I only have mercy on those that follow the same religon as me..." "..i dont care for these kuffr..."

I do not remember the name of the Saha'ba,but there was a companion of the prophet (saw) who was LOVED by allah swt even when he used to worship Statues. Only allah knows who will end up becoming a Muslim. So stop thinking of the 'kaffirs' as people who are BELOW YOU. YOU and I do not know who is destined to be a muslim in the future. For all we know,those that we are looking down on and to whom we are saying "you will be a resident of hell..." might convert into islam in the future and may have a higher rank than us! So stop being arrogant Brothers and Sisters. Come back to reality.
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SASB
07-09-2006, 10:13 PM
I didn't do the 2 min silence, I was at school at the time and am very curious as to why we did not do it because i would have liked to do it moreover i go to a british school wich makes it even more weird that we didn't do it we did it for 9-11 but why didn't we do it for 7-7? This is a question i am definatley going to be asking in school 2morrow.
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Panatella
07-09-2006, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

I saw it but didn't do the silence thing
just the way it worked out, or was there a specific reason why not?



Originally Posted by ------------
2 mins silence?? dats RIDICULOUS!!! We dont even have 2 secs silence 4 all our bros n sisters in Iraq n Palestine so wast all dat bout! i aint takin part in such a thing!!! :rant:
Is that any excuse for being disrespectful?

Originally Posted by ------------
yea true man and if muslims can do a 2 mins silence for the non muslims why cant they do the same 4 us 2>!
Why do you assume that none of the victims were muslim?

Originally Posted by Daffodil
Asalamulaikum

A two mins silence?!?! Lol my foot. Yes I know ppl will be offended and I apoligise. I apoligise for the fact that I dont think how a few ppls lives shud be remembered n not the millions of iraqis/afgans/chechnians/bosnians etc etc.

TWO MINS SILENCE? U mean me waste two mins of my life moping about 50 something ppl dying, ppl die everysingle day, ppl get murdered n killed by their families/friends/murderes everysingle day. Why dnt we have a two mins silence for them? Why shud the world stand still on one end whilst theres bombs n missililes, rapes, tortures, murder, shootings etc going off at another.

If ppl are gonna do a 2 mins silence for 50 something ppl, that means we owe something stupid like over thousands of hours worth of silence for the millions of muslim bros n sis that are dying. EDIT-BEING KILLED
As other people have suggested, you could use the time to reflect on all victims everywhere, instead of being disrespectful to the "50 something people".

Originally Posted by searcheroftruth
whats 2mins Silence gonna do for the victims and why are the muslims imitating the kuffar
It is respect for those that have died by taking a moment to reflect on their lives. If muslims imitate something that is respectful, is that not a good thing?

Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
Yeeeee! :anger:

i jus think its pointless :?, giv charity and make dua ;) thats betta :)
Respect is never pointless.

Originally Posted by SirZubair
[B]Some of the comments i have read in this thread Disgusts me.
I agree with this and the rest of your post.
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Ghazi
07-09-2006, 10:44 PM
:sl:

just the way it worked out, or was there a specific reason why not?
Just the way it worked out but if people wanna honour the dead they need to make sure things like this never happen again.
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Panatella
07-09-2006, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

Just the way it worked out but if people wanna honour the dead they need to make sure things like this never happen again.
Now, that is a good comment.
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Sis786
07-10-2006, 08:23 AM
Salaam

I opened this thread as i observed the 2 mins silence even though it wasnt planned i did and as i mentioned before i was really overcome with emotion because i live a selfish life where work and fmaily life kinda take over most the day even though i pray 5 times i have never really stopped and thought about terroism and so on. I talk about it but never took out time to think about the dead.

For the 2 mins i was silent it came to me that people died on this day in cold blood and it was apprantly done in the name of my religion. It also came to me that millions have died due to this terroism and i was really overcome with emotion.

Daffodil i am suprised with your comments i mean even though they were 50 people im sure if a loved one was amoung them you wouldnt see them as just "50" people.

I agree that 2 mins is something that is observed by Kaffir but why cant you see it as a time for "Zhikr" i mean i remembered Allah SWT and thanked him and prayed for the dead so whats wrong with that.

The thread was to find if anyone else felt the same and it wasnt opened so that you can disrespect the people that have died. so please stop that NOW!
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SirZubair
07-10-2006, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by searcheroftruth
whats 2mins Silence gonna do for the victims and why are the muslims imitating the kuffar
That is news to me.

SO now the 'kuffar' have hearts and we muslims are heartless?

You are reminding me of all the reasons why i left Islam all those years ago...i am glad i don't have people like you and sister Daffodil around me,if people such as you two lived around me,i would have never returned to islam thinking "if that is what islam teaches,then it cant be Gods chosen religon"

I am glad i know better than that Now.

I hope someday you will too.

Wa'salaam.
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Daffodil
07-10-2006, 12:53 PM
Daffodil i am suprised with your comments i mean even though they were 50 people im sure if a loved one was amoung them you wouldnt see them as just "50" people.
Every one has to die some day, and yes it wud have upset me if it was one of my own, however the muslim ppl who died on 7/7 are of my own as they were my bro n sis.
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Sis786
07-10-2006, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Daffodil
Every one has to die some day, and yes it wud have upset me if it was one of my own, however the muslim ppl who died on 7/7 are of my own as they were my bro n sis.

zubair n sis 786, lets just say we have our own understanding of jihad.
Im sure you wouldnt want your loved ones to die in such way, you are right some were our Bros and Sis and thats why we should all make dua for them and take out time to think about them.

As for the non-muslims we should be sincere to them and to thier famlies as thats the true way of Islam!

If you didnt observe the 2 mins silence but please dont be disrespectful in your comments!
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Hijaabi22
07-10-2006, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Some of the comments i have read in this thread Disgusts me.

Especially when it is coming from those who continously go on and on about "I FOLLOW THE QURAN AND SUNNAH",some of you sound like nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.

If you don't want to have a 2minute of silence for those that passed away on the 7/7,then Don't,but DO NOT make stupid comments such as "What about the muslims who die daily.." "..what about those in afghanistan.." "..what about those in iraq"..
.
jus sayin how it is and thats true and i stand by what i sed
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Daffodil
07-10-2006, 01:43 PM
Yep n i stand by what i sed.
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Hijaabi22
07-10-2006, 01:45 PM
soz all gud ^ every1ns entitled to express their opinion
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Sis786
07-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Thats fair enough no one said you cant express your feelings you have the freedom to do that but what we must ensure is that we dont offend those that hold this personal and in this case its the victims families of 7/7

We all know how offended we were only some months ago when a certain danish paper took freedom of speech too far!?
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Hijaabi22
07-10-2006, 01:50 PM
ok im sorry if i offended any1 wid my posts :p
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Umar001
07-10-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
[B]SO now the 'kuffar' have hearts and we muslims are heartless?
So are you saying you regard the 2 minute silence to be a show of heart??
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Sis786
07-10-2006, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
So are you saying you regard the 2 minute silence to be a show of heart??
I think what the Bro was saying that this was a mark of respect for what happened on that day. By observing it we were joining in, and those that did not that was upto them.

But some comments have been offensive and if someone who was personally effected by the 7/7 would be really digusted to read them.

The 2 mins are time to think and pray for those that died what is wrong with that??
Reply

Panatella
07-10-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by ------------
soz all gud ^ every1ns entitled to express their opinion
So..., what you are talking about is the freedom to express yourself, right? That is fine, having the freedom to express yourself is good, except when your remarks are disrespectful to others. Let me make a comparison; When the danish cartoonists 'expressed' themselves, very many people were upset. The general consensus among the muslims that were not calling for death to the danish, was that freedom of speech must be coupled with good manners and respect.
Having said that, the posts by both Daffodil and yourself were disrespectful to the victims of 7/7 and their families. You are free to not partake in the 2 minutes if you don't agree, but please remember to be respectful in your comments or to not make any at all. Unless of course, you are of the opinion that cartoonists should have the freedom to draw whatever they please. Then you can say whatever you want.

PS. Please people, do not use this post as a means of derailing the thread to talk about cartoons, I believe there is a seperate thread already to discuss that.
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Ryu Kazama
07-10-2006, 04:18 PM
I felt somewhat sad about this day......it's scarred me for life.
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Daffodil
07-10-2006, 04:39 PM
Oh my goodness!

Ur comparing religious hatred to a two mins silence? The danish cartoons was a deliberate attempt to offend muslims. Ur theory doesnt hold water my friend.


have a nice day.
Reply

afriend
07-10-2006, 04:42 PM
A 2 minute silence isn't gonna rollback what happened....Isn't this the likeness of those who only pray during ramadhaan?

We should pray everyday that nothing like this ever happens again...Not once a year...My 2 cents.
Reply

Ghazi
07-10-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
That is news to me.

SO now the 'kuffar' have hearts and we muslims are heartless?

You are reminding me of all the reasons why i left Islam all those years ago...i am glad i don't have people like you and sister Daffodil around me,if people such as you two lived around me,i would have never returned to islam thinking "if that is what islam teaches,then it cant be Gods chosen religon"

I am glad i know better than that Now.

I hope someday you will too.

Wa'salaam.
:sl:

Please bro just chill ranting and raving isn't gonna make anyone listen to or implament your point so please adivce in calm manner.
Reply

SirZubair
07-10-2006, 06:09 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Daffodil
zubair n sis 786, lets just say we have our own understanding of jihad.
What the..... :? WHats this got to do with Jihad?

THis has as much to do with Mcdonalds as it has to do with Jihad.

In otherwords,...

N/A


Originally Posted by ------------
jus sayin how it is and thats true and i stand by what i sed
Originally Posted by Daffodil
Yep n i stand by what i sed.
Well then i am saying you do not have a pure heart.

"im sorry if this offends anyone" but i am saying it as it is.


Originally Posted by ------------
soz all gud ^ every1ns entitled to express their opinion
Not if it is offensive.

...if i 'expressed my opinion' of what i think of you and Sister Daffodil after reading your recent posts,i will get banned.

In other words,there are times when you shouldn't say anything.


Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
So are you saying you regard the 2 minute silence to be a show of heart??
No,i am saying that muslims making idiotic statements such as "why should we follow the kuffar way..." is a show of being heartless.

No1 has asked anyone in this thread to lay themselves bare for the dead. No1 has asked anyone in this thread to remain silent for the Dead for 2minutes. All the starter of the thread asked was "who remained silent,....." ,she didn't ask "so,who wants to compare Iraq to London.." "who wants to show how much they despise London.."
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Panatella
07-10-2006, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Daffodil
Oh my goodness!

Ur comparing religious hatred to a two mins silence? The danish cartoons was a deliberate attempt to offend muslims. Ur theory doesnt hold water my friend.

Any ways, like i sed, i stand by what i sed, we have our own definitions of cold blooded murder, this i do not believe was cold blooded murder.

have a nice day.
No, I am comparing a silly cartoon to abrasive remarks made about the death of 50 people. Like I said, the two minutes are not what is important, being respectful is. Forget the two minutes. Just don't be disrespectful.

Any ways, like i sed, i stand by what i sed, we have our own definitions of cold blooded murder, this i do not believe was cold blooded murder.
There is sickness in some kind of thought.
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Silver Pearl
07-10-2006, 06:37 PM
:wasalamex

IMPORTANT:

It is shocking to see Muslims being cold-hearted and just rude. Let me highlight few things firstly for those who seem to have veiled their eyes from reality and the truth.

I personally did not do the 2 minute silence as I was asleep at the time. However that does not give me the right to belittle those who died as though they did not deserve kind words. Nor does it give me the right to bark at Muslims.

The Muslim is he from whose tongue and hand the Muslims are safe, and the Emigrant is he who abandons what God has prohibited.
(Bukhari).


If the hadeeth above does not tell you something about the way you should act then God forbid you have been learning the wrong things.

The man who is most hateful to God is the one who quarrels and disputes most.
(Bukhari, Muslim).

All I have seen in this thread as of yet is quarrel, bickering and disrespect for one another and others. Is that the characteristics of a Muslim? No.


If anyone kills a man who had made a covenant (anyone who belongs to a Non-Muslim community with whom a treaty of peace has been made, or a member of protected communities) will not experience the fragrance of paradise.
(Bukhari).

For those who may think what happened on 7/7 is in any way fine I suggest you re-think. If one wants to do what is right then they have to follow the laws of the creator not bend and turn laws to suit themselves. Killing innocent people is wrong, no buts no nothing. Committing suicide is just as equally wrong.


A Muslim is a Muslim's brother; he does not wrong him or abandon him. If anyone cares for his brother's need, God will care for his need; if anyone removes his brother's anxiety, God will remove from him one of the anxieties of the Day of Resurrection; and if anyone conceals a Muslim's secret, God will conceal his secret on the Day of Resurrection.
(Bukhari, Muslim).


He who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good.
(Muslim).

I hope you all realise what you write next time before sending the post button. Some of us are way to quick on replying. Why? Having high post count does not make you pious in the eye of Allah (subhana wa ta’ala). Or perhaps some of us have deluded ourselves into thinking that we will not be held accountable for what we write.

I thought about deleting all the inappropriate posts but then I thought otherwise. We learn best from our mistakes and me deleting them (or another mod) would merely be brushing the problem under the carpet. You all have the edit button and you’re all in charge of your actions. So I suggest some of you grow up a little, have some respects for others and be conscience of the comment you write.


If manners do not improve all those who contribute to such discussion will be warned and thread closed. I hope that is clear on the matter.




Originally Posted by Muezzin
Folks, this isn't targeted at anyone, but if this gets out of hand, I'll have to lock this thing and probably hand out some warnings. Please stay on-topic, everyone.

Brothers and sisters fear Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) if you're truthful and be not haste to pass on judgement.

Above all my Allah forgive me and the ummah for the sins we have commited knowingly and unknowingly.
Reply

Umar001
07-10-2006, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Silver Pearl
If anyone kills a man who had made a covenant (anyone who belongs to a Non-Muslim community with whom a treaty of peace has been made, or a member of protected communities) will not experience the fragrance of paradise.
(Bukhari).

For those who may think what happened on 7/7 is in any way fine I suggest you re-think. If one wants to do what is right then they have to follow the laws of the creator not bend and turn laws to suit themselves. Killing innocent people is wrong, no buts no nothing. Committing suicide is just as equally wrong.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I don't understand what this particular hadeeth has to do with people in England.

Not that I think anyone has the right to have killed them.
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SirZubair
07-10-2006, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
:sl:

Please bro just chill ranting and raving isn't gonna make anyone listen to or implament your point so please adivce in calm manner.
i apoligies for the 'ranting and raving' :grumbling

What i was Simply trying to point out was,..

..it is the lack of Religion in so-called 'religous people' that made me Reject islam and led me into Kuffr all those years ago.

I've grown up since then,i am a different person compared to who i was all those years ago. Now my Iman is strong,my belief in Allah swt is never going to die (insha'allah).

But correct me if i am wrong Akhi,but there are YOUNG people on this forum too. Some might log off after reading some of the posts in here thinking "yeah,that is the right way of doing things..." and might live half of their lives with Hate in their hearts.

And then there are Others who might read the posts and think "One group tells me that 'islam means peace" and another group tells me otherwise,..i doubt islam is a true religon,muslims are sick people"

I fell into the second group.

That is why i have constantly posted a simple message on this forum,which is :

Choose your words well,choose your path even better.

We will be held accountable for our words,not just our actions.

So please,i BEG (look at how low i have to sink inorder to get some people to listen :rollseyes ) go and LEARN what ISLAM is really all about. Don't talk to me about "following the quran and sunnah" when you don't live up to it.

Empty words have never meant anything to me,and will never mean anything to me.

Wa'salaam.
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786rani
07-10-2006, 06:50 PM
we did a silence in drayton manor in a queue!!!
rani
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SASB
07-10-2006, 07:00 PM
The 2 min silence is just a way to pay respect to the people that died in the terrible bombings, it is a time for u to think about how fortunate u have been to not have urself or any of ur family caught in those bombings on 7-7, and a time for u to think about not only the people that died due to the bombings but the famillies that lost their loved ones in such a terrible way!

There is no harm in doing the 2 min silence, infact it is considerd good to do the 2 min silence! The way some people are so opposed to doing the silence on this thread really worries me!

If u don't want to do the silence then thats fair enough, but disrespecting the whole idea of doing a silence is wrong!
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Daffodil
07-10-2006, 07:45 PM
Well then i am saying you do not have a pure heart.
Ironic isnt it how u once told me that only Allah swt knows what is in ones heart yet u claim to know if my heart is pure or not. Double standards can be a funny thing. Oh yea and practice what u preach.

As for silver pearl, ill reply to ur post in private.
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Far7an
07-10-2006, 08:07 PM
:sl:

I was silent for longer than 2 mins, and posting on LI at the same time.
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Dawud_uk
07-10-2006, 08:30 PM
assalaamu alaykum,

first of all brothers and sisters lets all calm down and discuss this with good adhab.

first of all to reply to the original post, not the later argument...

no i didnt observe the two mins silence at work, it was optional and i make an effort not to immitate the kuffar which is what this is.

the prophet Muhammad (saws) in a longer haddith said 'whoever immitates a people is one of them' so Allahu alim on the level of immitation required for that, but let us all be careful and politely explain we do no observe the rituals and rites of another people which two minutes of silence in rememberence of the dead certainly is.

2ndly, this implies honouring the dead, the vast majority of the people who died that day were kaffirs, and when someone dies a kaffir he dies an enemy of Allah, taubah is now impossible for them and they are suffering in the torment of the grave.

i love for the sake of Allah and dislike for the sake of Allah, so when someone dies in state of kufr, i know their status according to the understanding of our deen and i know i cannot honour them or pray for them or do anything such, this is true whether it is those who died on 7/7 or my own grandmother who died recently.

now for the 2nd discussion on 7/7 being allowed...
lets all be honest and realise there is more than one point of view here according to the Quran and sunnah.

when people attack suicide attacks, they do so with the Quran and sunnah, when it is defended it is from the Quran and sunnah. now go look at the facts yourself, is it permissable or not? Allahu Alim, i have my own view it is but like i said go look for yourself and consult the knowledgeable Sheikh's, especially those who have travelled to the lands of jihad themselves and investigated the issue.

now the 2nd issue is it is allowed to target non-combatants, once again people quote quran and sunnah, there is an argument from the quran and sunnah to say not allowed but once again very strong evidence to suggest it is such surah at-taubah where it says that if a people break their covanant with you then you break it likewise. Allahu alim.

now this brings us to the third issue, did those who carried out this attack break a covanant with the kuffar by attacking them? well this implies that the covanant is still intact.

to be blunt, the kuffar didnt just tear up the covanant, they wiped their butts on it and flushed it down the toilet but Allahu Alim whether it is valid or not i think my own point of view is quite clear on matter three at least but the 1st and 2nd i am not sure of myself and you'll have to look into it yourselves but you might want to start with Shiekh Abdullah Azzams 'Defence of the Muslim lands' on one side defending the ideas of jihad.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
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Daffodil
07-10-2006, 08:34 PM
Well sed dawud.
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-10-2006, 08:38 PM
nah we didnt hav 2 min silence.. i woz at skool but nah.. n personally i dnt fink we need 2.. wot the point of 2 mins silence :? think abt the ppl who died, well cant u do dat sum utha time? and otha thingz thats hapenin all ova da globe, wher thousands r dyin, wherz da silence 4 dem?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
07-10-2006, 08:51 PM
:salamext:
Well, strangely, I seem to see where everyone is coming from. But, I don't think we should do a silence for the people in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere. What will silence do? We should be doing the exact opposite. The prophet (SAW) taught us that civillians are not targets, so we cannot hold the civillians accountable for the actions of the government. So their blood is precious aswell. I could easily say that they voted for the government so that makes them targets. And I think I may have thought like that at one point. But alhamdulillah no more.
The kuffar are not our teachers. We follow the Rasul (SAW), the mercy of all Mankind.:)
:wasalamex
Reply

j4763
07-10-2006, 08:54 PM
I’m actually quite sickened by reading many of the posts within in thread. It’s like (as someone else has already put it) a British life means less than a non British life.

Yes its true ever day people lose there life’s and there is no silence for them, but this event happened in the heart of London and effected many British people. I don’t know if its custom for other countries to hold minute silences but us British do, like each year for those who died in WW2 or are those life’s irrelevant because they weren’t all Muslims?

I think a lot of you need to grow up and give some respect! :heated:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-10-2006, 08:59 PM
I apologise j4763, i just thought it would be a better way of remembering them to actually help those currently in need.


Accept my apology please.

:peace:
Reply

Panatella
07-11-2006, 01:38 AM
Dawud_uk,
I would like to address your last post, in particular your second and third issues of your second discussion (as you have organized your post).

The first question I would like to ask is, what is the covenant you refer to when you say that the kufar broke the covenant? Perhaps you are referring to something that the british government had agreed to? At any rate, the average citizen agreed to nothing, and had no covenant with anyone. They are only going about their business.

The next thing I would like to mention is that it appears that you suggest that it is permissable, and that the 7/7 attacks were ok, and nothing was done wrong. It seems that you suggest that muslims are allowed to attack the kuffar, and this implies that there is in fact an "us against them" war going on.

So, having said that, let us take the next logical step with this train of thought, shall we? Since by your own words there are two serperate groups in Britain, muslims and kafir, and by your own words these two groups are actually enemies, then why waste time? Why beat around the bush? Why don't the kufar view muslims for what they are (by your words), an enemy? Why don't they just attack muslims wherever they find them? Blow up the mosques? Burn the muslims houses? Burn muslim schools? KIll muslims they see in the street? Why not?

After all, by your words Dawud, the kafir are the enemy, and it is permissable to kill them. So, by that very reasoning, then it would also be permissable for kafir to kill muslims.

Except for one thing. It is the UK. No sharia law. No muslim rule. No dimwit fools allowing the killing of others because in their foolish view someone unknowingly broke a covenant with them, making it permissable. None of that. British rule.

British laws. Laws that never make it permissable to kill. Ever. And don't bother to feed me that cock and bull line about "Muslims follow the rule of islam not Britain", it doesn't fly. If you live in Britain, then you must live by british rules. If it is not acceptable to you, then simply pack your bags and immigrate to a country that has rules that you can live by.

There are a few people that keep suggesting, or hinting at least, that they would like some kind of war with the kafir. Or, at least suggest that it is permissable for muslims to attack nonmuslims, and that it is ok.

Well, be careful what you wish for. Think about it. Is that what people really want? Religious and/or racial warfare? Citizens openly attacking citizens in the streets. Muslim houses burning. Your family living in real fear. Is that what people really want?

I say to anyone that thinks attacks on anyone is ok, "grow up".
You don't know what you are saying. You don't know what fear is.
Reply

SirZubair
07-11-2006, 06:02 AM
Edit :

Forget it,it seems like i am wasting my time.

I pray that ALlah swt guides you all the the straight path.And places Mercy in everyones heart.

Wa'salaam.
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 07:50 AM
Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed
:salamext:
Well, strangely, I seem to see where everyone is coming from. But, I don't think we should do a silence for the people in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere. What will silence do? We should be doing the exact opposite. The prophet (SAW) taught us that civillians are not targets, so we cannot hold the civillians accountable for the actions of the government. So their blood is precious aswell. I could easily say that they voted for the government so that makes them targets. And I think I may have thought like that at one point. But alhamdulillah no more.
The kuffar are not our teachers. We follow the Rasul (SAW), the mercy of all Mankind.:)
:wasalamex

assalaamu alaykum,

check out the seerah, when the jews broke their covanant and fought against the muslims and stabbed them in the back whilst the pagans attacked mekkah did the prophet Muhammad (saws) make any distinction between their combatants and non-combatants? check it out for yourself.

sometimes he was merciful and didnt kill civilians, sometimes he and the sahabah saw other needs depending on the circumstances and then another set of rules applies and this can be seen by the example of the sahahabah also.

did abu bakr when he was kalif make any distinction between combatant and non-combatant during the apostacy wars?

did khalid bin al waleed make such distinctions in his wars against the persians and romans? sometimes he did, sometimes not.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

north_malaysian
07-11-2006, 07:51 AM
Nope. I dont know which time in accordance to Malaysian time. Sorry. But I pray for world peace.

But Bush celebrated his 60th Birthday on that day, isnt it?
Reply

Sis786
07-11-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Edit :

Forget it,it seems like i am wasting my time.

I pray that ALlah swt guides you all the the straight path.And places Mercy in everyones heart.

Wa'salaam.
Bro i dont knwo why you edited your post it was a good comment i did also metion above that the freedom of speech can be taken too far and the cartoonist from Denmark was a clear example for all.
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Panatella
Dawud_uk,
I would like to address your last post, in particular your second and third issues of your second discussion (as you have organized your post).

The first question I would like to ask is, what is the covenant you refer to when you say that the kufar broke the covenant? Perhaps you are referring to something that the british government had agreed to? At any rate, the average citizen agreed to nothing, and had no covenant with anyone. They are only going about their business.

The next thing I would like to mention is that it appears that you suggest that it is permissable, and that the 7/7 attacks were ok, and nothing was done wrong. It seems that you suggest that muslims are allowed to attack the kuffar, and this implies that there is in fact an "us against them" war going on.

So, having said that, let us take the next logical step with this train of thought, shall we? Since by your own words there are two serperate groups in Britain, muslims and kafir, and by your own words these two groups are actually enemies, then why waste time? Why beat around the bush? Why don't the kufar view muslims for what they are (by your words), an enemy? Why don't they just attack muslims wherever they find them? Blow up the mosques? Burn the muslims houses? Burn muslim schools? KIll muslims they see in the street? Why not?

After all, by your words Dawud, the kafir are the enemy, and it is permissable to kill them. So, by that very reasoning, then it would also be permissable for kafir to kill muslims.

Except for one thing. It is the UK. No sharia law. No muslim rule. No dimwit fools allowing the killing of others because in their foolish view someone unknowingly broke a covenant with them, making it permissable. None of that. British rule.

British laws. Laws that never make it permissable to kill. Ever. And don't bother to feed me that cock and bull line about "Muslims follow the rule of islam not Britain", it doesn't fly. If you live in Britain, then you must live by british rules. If it is not acceptable to you, then simply pack your bags and immigrate to a country that has rules that you can live by.

There are a few people that keep suggesting, or hinting at least, that they would like some kind of war with the kafir. Or, at least suggest that it is permissable for muslims to attack nonmuslims, and that it is ok.

Well, be careful what you wish for. Think about it. Is that what people really want? Religious and/or racial warfare? Citizens openly attacking citizens in the streets. Muslim houses burning. Your family living in real fear. Is that what people really want?

I say to anyone that thinks attacks on anyone is ok, "grow up".
You don't know what you are saying. You don't know what fear is.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

read what i have written again, i didnt say we are at war with all the kuffar, or that such acts were permissable only people should look for themselves and examine the issue islamically.

all i did was break the issue down into its component parts and asked people to examine the different view points themselves. if only one of those component parts was incorrect then so was the whole act.

in referrring to the covanant i mentioned, that is an islamic term meaning an agreement between two people, or two peoples etc.

for example, those muslims who live here in the west agree to live by the laws and regulations of this land as long as it doesnt contradict the laws and regulations of islam and the government agreed when they let them into this country to let them practice their faith in peace. for example if the UK banned hijab or prayer than it is obligatory for us to disobey that law.

but as muslims how can a covanant be valid with a people who are attacking, murdering, raping another muslim people or more than one muslim people in other parts of the world?

where are your precious human rights with how you treat the people of iraq and afghanistan? they are thrown out of the window when you go and invade other peoples.

so clearly it cannot be valid to say the covanant is intact with what britain is doing in iraq and afghanistan, however this does not mean we are at war or that all muslims should go out and attack their neighbour or non-muslims attack their muslim neighbours.

you are putting words in my mouth and then making assumptions yourself based upon those words put in my mouth.

i will still behave well towards all, not break any laws because that is just sensible and observe the rules of islam in my relations with others. i just no longer view the covanant as binding or holding upon me or other muslims here.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Daw'ud
Reply

SirZubair
07-11-2006, 08:56 AM
Br.Dawud,.. are you comparing the Hikma of Prophet Muhammed (saw) and Abu Bakr (r.a) to the sick,twisted minds of the 7/7 bombers?
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north_malaysian
07-11-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
the sick,twisted minds of the 7/7 bombers?
I do agree with this statement.
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Ameeratul Layl
07-11-2006, 03:09 PM
Salam.

I didn't know about it until I watched the news. It was too late my then.

Wasalam.
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Br.Dawud,.. are you comparing the Hikma of Prophet Muhammed (saw) and Abu Bakr (r.a) to the sick,twisted minds of the 7/7 bombers?

assalaamu alaykum sir zubair,

none of us are on their level, but if we follow their example then there is a chance we can achieve jannah and if we deviate from it then we land ourselves in the hellfire.

remember the haddith about the many lines drawn by the prophet Muhammad along with one straight line in the middle. the straight line is the deen of islam and the deviated lines all have a shaitan calling to them.

the straight line is what the prophet Muhammad (saws) and his companions are upon and what we should all remain upon.

i am not arguing they are right or wrong, i am saying they have legitimate evidence for their position that we all have to examine in detail and look at those scholars and question them who have a position for or against such a position.

Sir Zubair, do you acknowledge there were circumstances where 'civilians' were killed by the prohet Muhammad (saws) and by his companions when their people fought against islam as a whole?

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

Sis786
07-11-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Sir Zubair, do you acknowledge there were circumstances where 'civilians' were killed by the prohet Muhammad (saws) and by his companions when their people fought against islam as a whole?

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
:sl: Bro,

I know this question aint directed at me But i want to say that you are right that in the time of the Prophet SAW some civilians did die and i know that they did thier best to avoid this, But this is no comparison to 7/7.

The Prophet SAW fought for Islam and yes we dont know the intentions of the Bombers but it is crystal clear that this could not do any good to the religion of Peace.

:w:
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
:sl: Bro,

I know this question aint directed at me But i want to say that you are right that in the time of the Prophet SAW some civilians did die and i know that they did thier best to avoid this, But this is no comparison to 7/7.

The Prophet SAW fought for Islam and yes we dont know the intentions of the Bombers but it is crystal clear that this could not do any good to the religion of Peace.

:w:
assalaamu alaykum sis786,

read the seerah again, there were circumstances where all the men of fighting age were killed and all the rest of that people enslaved such as with the jews when they fought against the muslims after making a covanant with them. 'civilians' in the western sense but as their people had fought against islam so they were all targetted and killed or enslaved.

the prophet Muhammad (saws) and the early generations of islam sometimes saw that the circumstances were right to be merciful in war and sometimes they were not because of the situation.

i am not saying that proves 7/7 was right, just look at the evidence yourself and read the seerah fully, not the selective qoutes from scholars of the west who make a nice living out of being so nice and cosy with the kaffir rulers.

the situation is not as straight forward as some 'scholars' would have you believe. when we are told to beware scholars found at the gates of rulers how much worse those found at the gates of the kaffir rulers who have slaughtered thousands of muslims and these scholars are given free access to them?

How much more should we boycott those scholars and warn against them than even those scholars found at the gates of muslim rulers?

open you eyes sister, read the seerah and study the situation before you flatly condemn.

i am not 100% sure either way so i am just asking people like yourself and sir zubair dont blindly condemn without examining the evidence for their position first and i would once again warn you to beware those scholars who obviously have a vested interest in propping up the kaffir and apostate rulers either in the west or in the lands of islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

Sis786
07-11-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum sis786,

read the seerah again, there were circumstances where all the men of fighting age were killed and all the rest of that people enslaved such as with the jews when they fought against the muslims after making a covanant with them. 'civilians' in the western sense but as their people had fought against islam so they were all targetted and killed or enslaved.

the prophet Muhammad (saws) and the early generations of islam sometimes saw that the circumstances were right to be merciful in war and sometimes they were not because of the situation.

i am not saying that proves 7/7 was right, just look at the evidence yourself and read the seerah fully, not the selective qoutes from scholars of the west who make a nice living out of being so nice and cosy with the kaffir rulers.

the situation is not as straight forward as some 'scholars' would have you believe. when we are told to beware scholars found at the gates of rulers how much worse those found at the gates of the kaffir rulers who have slaughtered thousands of muslims and these scholars are given free access to them?

How much more should we boycott those scholars and warn against them than even those scholars found at the gates of muslim rulers?

open you eyes sister, read the seerah and study the situation before you flatly condemn.

i am not 100% sure either way so i am just asking people like yourself and sir zubair dont blindly condemn without examining the evidence for their position first and i would once again warn you to beware those scholars who obviously have a vested interest in propping up the kaffir and apostate rulers either in the west or in the lands of islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
:sl:

I know what you are saying and i have spoke to many who have had the same views.

Like i said the views of the Bombers are only known by them, But it hasnt done no good and i cant see how someone could think that it would do good.

Allah SWT knws best!

:w:
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
:sl:

I know what you are saying and i have spoke to many who have had the same views.

Like i said the views of the Bombers are only known by them, But it hasnt done no good and i cant see how someone could think that it would do good.

Allah SWT knws best!

:w:

assalaamu alaykum sis786,

i am in no way saying this justifies the killings, but look at what happened in spain? there was a massive bombing, the government is thrown out and the new one pulls its troops from iraq straight away. cause and effect.

obl threatens the west including italy, and a new government is voted in who wish to pull their troops out of iraq, cause and effect.

the kaffirs in the west are soft from decades and sometimes centuries of decadent living on the exploitative system of first colonialism and then neo-colonialism.

the same thing happened to previous civilisations - the greeks, the romans, the british empire, and now the US. they grow rich and powerful on a military history but then become soft and vulnerable through easy living.

the same thing happened to the muslims i must add, we also become soft and decadent and the prophet Muhammad (saws) specificially warned us against having wahan in our hearts, wahan is the love of the dunya and hatred of death but the difference is we have the previous pious generations to refer to and judge ourselves by and so change ourselves to follow their example.

i have no contact with terrorists, but i assume they have themselves also looked at the softness of the West at home and decided that it is easier to attack them where they are most vulnerable and force the public mood to change in britain through attacking their civilians just as they have attacked our civilians.

the idea to change the public mood just as it was changed in spain and force the government to change policy by public pressure rather than directly fighting their armies which are massively better armed.

I do personally think it lacked wisdom to do this at this time though, whether it was permissable or not so dont think i am saying it is right, but i refuse to say something is haram when there is so much evidence to suggest it isnt and i would warn others from saying haram without clear evidence.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
07-11-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

check out the seerah, when the jews broke their covanant and fought against the muslims and stabbed them in the back whilst the pagans attacked mekkah did the prophet Muhammad (saws) make any distinction between their combatants and non-combatants? check it out for yourself.

sometimes he was merciful and didnt kill civilians, sometimes he and the sahabah saw other needs depending on the circumstances and then another set of rules applies and this can be seen by the example of the sahahabah also.

did abu bakr when he was kalif make any distinction between combatant and non-combatant during the apostacy wars?

did khalid bin al waleed make such distinctions in his wars against the persians and romans? sometimes he did, sometimes not.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
:salamext:

I do not think we are in a position to say that any civillian has a right to die. The Sahaba (radhiyAllahu ánhum) had more knowledge than we can hope to gain.
If the prophet (SAW) taught us to be merciful to animals, should we not be merciful to our fellow human beings? And there are some who consider Muslims who are killed as 'collateral damage'. This is a clear trait of Al-Khawaarij. Muslims also died in the London bombings, akhee. Do you know how many British people marched against the War in Iraq? Why should they die? What crime did they commit? And I am sure that there were even more who disagreed with the war who didn't march.
The people who committed the 7/7 bombings, and the 9/11 bombings (whoever they were), or any other terrorist attack are murderers, plain and simple.
May Allah forgive me if I have said anything wrong, and Allah knows best.

:wasalamex
Reply

MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-11-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
I’m actually quite sickened by reading many of the posts within in thread. It’s like (as someone else has already put it) a British life means less than a non British life.

Yes its true ever day people lose there life’s and there is no silence for them, but this event happened in the heart of London and effected many British people. I don’t know if its custom for other countries to hold minute silences but us British do, like each year for those who died in WW2 or are those life’s irrelevant because they weren’t all Muslims?

I think a lot of you need to grow up and give some respect! :heated:
and wot about the lil children and women affected by their fathers/husbands/brothers or whoeva dyin? a family in iraq has lost atleast 2 family member durin dis stupid war.. and actually there wer muslims that had lost their lives at da 7/7 bombings.. so wot u on about :?
Reply

SirZubair
07-11-2006, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Sir Zubair, do you acknowledge there were circumstances where 'civilians' were killed by the prohet Muhammad (saws) and by his companions when their people fought against islam as a whole?

:sl: akhi,

Yes,civilians have been killed during those times,i won't deny that.

But once again,there is a difference between a Holy War and "i don't know who my target is,..but i'll blow myself up and kill any woman,man,child who is close enough..",don't you think?


:wasalaam:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-11-2006, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
and wot about the lil children and women affected by their fathers/husbands/brothers or whoeva dyin? a family in iraq has lost atleast 2 family member durin dis stupid war.. and actually there wer muslims that had lost their lives at da 7/7 bombings.. so wot u on about :?

Agreed !
Reply

j4763
07-11-2006, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
and wot about the lil children and women affected by their fathers/husbands/brothers or whoeva dyin? a family in iraq has lost atleast 2 family member durin dis stupid war.. and actually there wer muslims that had lost their lives at da 7/7 bombings.. so wot u on about :?
Well no disrespect but the minute silence was held in Britain for the people who died in Britain that day.
If you want to remember the fathers, husbands, brothers or whoever dying in other countries that’s up to you. But this was based in Britain and the silence held in Britain.

It’s a British thing, should we not hold a minutes silence for all the British who died in WW2 each year?

It may not do much for the dead, it may not do much for the maimed or the families who were effected. Its all about respect.

Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
and actually there wer muslims that had lost their lives at da 7/7 bombings.. so wot u on about :?
Then surly your brothers and sisters who died that day should be shown some respect too?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-11-2006, 08:59 PM
we show respect, i was talking to my british colleagues at work today. They agreed the two minutes silence is understandable and respect worthy but they didnt do it! Why? Because they spend enough time thinking about those who have suffered at the hands of terrorists...
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-11-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair

:sl: akhi,

Yes,civilians have been killed during those times,i won't deny that.

But once again,there is a difference between a Holy War and "i don't know who my target is,..but i'll blow myself up and kill any woman,man,child who is close enough..",don't you think?


:wasalaam:

assalaamu alaykum sir zubair,

like i said i do not know 100% either way and therefore i do not make blanket declarations of haram when i am not sure. i do agree the analogy isnt exact but it is one principle that many deny which is that under certain circumstances what the west would call civilians may be killed and i am glad you agree that point.

but i think you underestimate those that did this if you think this was mindless, i do not believe it was. it aimed at the heart of a nation who had declared war and killed thousands of muslims.

that is not mindless blowing up, it is targetted and meant to get a specific message across rightly or wrongly in that matter.

assalaamu alaykum,

Daw'ud
Reply

north_malaysian
07-12-2006, 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair

:sl: akhi,

Yes,civilians have been killed during those times,i won't deny that.

But once again,there is a difference between a Holy War and "i don't know who my target is,..but i'll blow myself up and kill any woman,man,child who is close enough..",don't you think?


:wasalaam:
Agreed.
Reply

Far7an
07-12-2006, 11:13 AM
:sl:

Since there are no people of knowledge on this board, a question was asked to Shaykh Isam Rajab about this.

This was the question:

Asalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

There are several authentic ahadeeth and Quranic verse that clearly forbid the committing of suicide. However, I have noticed Muslims excusing and saying in this time committing suicide is permissible (for example that of 7/7) where do they draw their conclusion as they say scholars agree with this opinion?
And the answer:

Walaikum Assalam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

If Muslims gave excuses that doesn't mean these excuses are legitimate. I don't know any scholar approved what happened on July 7th in London. I was one of the first Imams worldwide to condemn this action and the like of it.
If there are people who give excuses then you need to look at these excuses, are they evidences from the book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger Sallallahualaihi wasallam or not?
Reply

MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-12-2006, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
Well no disrespect but the minute silence was held in Britain for the people who died in Britain that day.
If you want to remember the fathers, husbands, brothers or whoever dying in other countries that’s up to you. But this was based in Britain and the silence held in Britain.

It’s a British thing, should we not hold a minutes silence for all the British who died in WW2 each year?

It may not do much for the dead, it may not do much for the maimed or the families who were effected. Its all about respect.



Then surly your brothers and sisters who died that day should be shown some respect too?
why do u need 2 mins silence? wot diference duz it make.. like u sed "It may not do much for the dead, it may not do much for the maimed or the families who were effected" so wotz the point in wastin 2mins of out life on tingz lyk dat.. if it duz the dead no good, the families or frendz, i dnt c no point.. silence is nowher near as powerful as prayer..

Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
we show respect, i was talking to my british colleagues at work today. They agreed the two minutes silence is understandable and respect worthy but they didnt do it! Why? Because they spend enough time thinking about those who have suffered at the hands of terrorists...
exactly.. i agree wid u der bro..
Reply

Sis786
07-12-2006, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
i dnt c no point.. silence is nowher near as powerful as prayer..
thats why i prayed in the 2 mins
Reply

MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-12-2006, 04:22 PM
aww. dats realy sweet.. i was at skool :(
Reply

Thanaa
07-12-2006, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Sis786
Did you do the 2mins Silence for the 7/7 Victims

:sl:

We just done our 2 mins at work and im kinda overcome with emotion and i feel really sad, but i used that 2 mins to pray for those that passed away and prayed for peace.

I think that those aint should it is a nice way of uniting!
Yeah I did it.
Reply

Silver Pearl
07-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

i am not arguing they are right or wrong, i am saying they have legitimate evidence for their position that we all have to examine in detail and look at those scholars and question them who have a position for or against such a position.

:wasalamex

I hope this reaches you in good health and in the best imaan.

Brother from the different works of ulama I have read upon and the imam I have spoken to none of them agree that suicide is permissible. So I’d appreciate it if you put forth evidence of their legitimate rulings. We draw our verdict from the Qur’an and Sunnah and there are immense ahadeeth and ayah that state clearly that suicide is haraam.

The prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) was advised not to go to war for 13 years. There is a message to the whole humanity about this wisdom.

Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) knows the intention of these men and for that I shall not transgress in what I say but make dua for them.

Furthermore, in regard to jihad (in this case we are addressing harbun muqaddasattun rather than the general term of Jihad). It becomes fard ayn upon Muslims to help brothers and sisters if they themselves can’t defend themselves. Therefore attacking London or New York is hardly going to help our suffering brothers and sisters in Chechnya, Iraq etc.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
07-12-2006, 05:10 PM
Therefore attacking London or New York is hardly going to help our suffering brothers and sisters in Chechnya, Iraq etc.
Bingo! Somebody rep my sister, i'm out.:)

:wasalamex
Reply

MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-12-2006, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Silver Pearl
:wasalamex

I hope this reaches you in good health and in the best imaan.

Brother from the different works of ulama I have read upon and the imam I have spoken to none of them agree that suicide is permissible. So I’d appreciate it if you put forth evidence of their legitimate rulings. We draw our verdict from the Qur’an and Sunnah and there are immense ahadeeth and ayah that state clearly that suicide is haraam.

The prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) was advised not to go to war for 13 years. There is a message to the whole humanity about this wisdom.

Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) knows the intention of these men and for that I shall not transgress in what I say but make dua for them.

Furthermore, in regard to jihad (in this case we are addressing harbun muqaddasattun rather than the general term of Jihad). It becomes fard ayn upon Muslims to help brothers and sisters if they themselves can’t defend themselves. Therefore attacking London or New York is hardly going to help our suffering brothers and sisters in Chechnya, Iraq etc.
make dua 4 dem.. exatly.. the onli ting u cn do iz pray..
Reply

j4763
07-12-2006, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
why do u need 2 mins silence? wot diference duz it make.. like u sed "It may not do much for the dead, it may not do much for the maimed or the families who were effected" so wotz the point in wastin 2mins of out life on tingz lyk dat.. if it duz the dead no good, the families or frendz, i dnt c no point.. silence is nowher near as powerful as prayer..
Did it not occur that many people (non-Muslim as well) may have used those 2 mins for praying too? Or just remembering the dead and hoping or try doing something to stop this ever happening again.

But in saying that what good has praying done to help our planet of recent years?

Out of everthing though its to show some respect for the dead.

What if a bomb had been blown up in a mosque in Britian, killed 60 odd Muslims and injured 100 others by some nutter, and a minutes silence was held one year later for them, would it be just as pointless and would you not see someone who refused to be quite for couple of minutes as disrespectful to your lost bros and sisters?
Reply

aamirsaab
07-12-2006, 08:26 PM
:sl:
^ good point.

I think some people are forgetting that people in this country do things differently. A 2 minute silence is very important to people in the west (reasons for this will of course vary depending on the person) and allows some remembrance to occur. I think it's a nice thing actually, 'cus atleast they are making an effort.

Although, I do agree with the opinion that one should not just remember those lost on this one specific occasion - surely, it'd be better to remember them all the time?

The point is: this is how the west does it.
Reply

Dawud_uk
07-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Silver Pearl
:wasalamex

I hope this reaches you in good health and in the best imaan.

Brother from the different works of ulama I have read upon and the imam I have spoken to none of them agree that suicide is permissible. So I’d appreciate it if you put forth evidence of their legitimate rulings. We draw our verdict from the Qur’an and Sunnah and there are immense ahadeeth and ayah that state clearly that suicide is haraam.

The prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) was advised not to go to war for 13 years. There is a message to the whole humanity about this wisdom.

Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) knows the intention of these men and for that I shall not transgress in what I say but make dua for them.

Furthermore, in regard to jihad (in this case we are addressing harbun muqaddasattun rather than the general term of Jihad). It becomes fard ayn upon Muslims to help brothers and sisters if they themselves can’t defend themselves. Therefore attacking London or New York is hardly going to help our suffering brothers and sisters in Chechnya, Iraq etc.

assalaamu alaykum sister,

perhaps with the greatest respect you need to read more widely? even relatively liberal modernist scholars like Yusuf al-Qadawi says martyrdom operations are permissable under certain circumstances.

it depends upon intention, if the intention is depression and to end life or anger or such like then yes it is clearly haram but if the intention is to kill the enemy and only use your body as a means of delivering the device then many ulema say it is impermissable.

remember sister actions are put by intentions, if someone is depressed with life and wishes to end it taking some enemies with him his intention was suicide but if some pious brother or sister hoping for the highest reward from Allah wishes to take out the enemies of Allah and realises that the most effective way of doing this is taking them with them then that is different.

besides,
those scholars who say such things are not allowed automatically have an advantage... they can speak as they like and not risk arrest, imprisonment and being flown by plane to morocco or syria to be buggered and tortured with electrodes and knives at george bush's will.

you might notice most of the mujahadeen scholars are either in prison, dead or in the battlefield and not really accessable to you or i.

even if martyrdom operations are permissable this does however not make this particular operation allowable, they're are many different factors to look into it which could still make it haram but i just refuse to condemn it until i have looked at all the evidence in enough detail.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Reply

Silver Pearl
07-12-2006, 08:45 PM
:wasalamex

perhaps with the greatest respect you need to read more widely?
Most certainly, there are many books i wish to read upon and inshallah.



even relatively liberal modernist scholars like Yusuf al-Qadawi says martyrdom operations are permissable under certain circumstances.


it depends upon intention, if the intention is depression and to end life or anger or such like then yes it is clearly haram but if the intention is to kill the enemy and only use your body as a means of delivering the device then many ulema say it is impermissable.

remember sister actions are put by intentions, if someone is depressed with life and wishes to end it taking some enemies with him his intention was suicide but if some pious brother or sister hoping for the highest reward from Allah wishes to take out the enemies of Allah and realises that the most effective way of doing this is taking them with them then that is different.

besides,
those scholars who say such things are not allowed automatically have an advantage... they can speak as they like and not risk arrest, imprisonment and being flown by plane to morocco or syria to be buggered and tortured with electrodes and knives at george bush's will.

you might notice most of the mujahadeen scholars are either in prison, dead or in the battlefield and not really accessable to you or i.

even if martyrdom operations are permissable this does however not make this particular operation allowable, they're are many different factors to look into it which could still make it haram but i just refuse to condemn it until i have looked at all the evidence in enough detail.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
I understand where you're coming from, and you have raised some vital points.

However, all ask is for some daleel.You're right that intention is vital but we can't use this so ambigiously for it can be dangerous. I may consume alcohol although i didn't intentionally mean to get drunk. The rule does not always work.

I'm sure you know very well that fatwa are drawn on using the Qur'an and the sunnah as means to come to a conclusion. There are numerous daleel contradicting the allowance of Suicide. I just wish for quotes that could clear the matter.


Furthermore, those who carried out 7/7 and 9/11 targeted civilians. Anyone can see that and Islam clear forbids such actions. Like i stated it is fard ayn upon us Muslims to aid our brothers and sisters in the countries they are being oppressed in but it is not permissible (according to all the Imam i have spoken to) to attack and kill those who are innocent which occured in 7/7.


Originally Posted by Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi
"Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts.
Sheikh Qaradawi was not agreeing upon the suicide bombers in London nor NY but rather those in Palestine. Circumstances there are very different.

I hope that makes sense.

May Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) fogive me for my errors.
Reply

MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-13-2006, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
Did it not occur that many people (non-Muslim as well) may have used those 2 mins for praying too? Or just remembering the dead and hoping or try doing something to stop this ever happening again.

But in saying that what good has praying done to help our planet of recent years?

Out of everthing though its to show some respect for the dead.

What if a bomb had been blown up in a mosque in Britian, killed 60 odd Muslims and injured 100 others by some nutter, and a minutes silence was held one year later for them, would it be just as pointless and would you not see someone who refused to be quite for couple of minutes as disrespectful to your lost bros and sisters?
maybe for kaafirs it hasnt done much help, but 4 me.. prayers done so much help and datz y im a muslim and i pray..

i wudnt do a silence.. i wud pray 4 dem.. i dont nid 2 do any silence 4 anyone, its pointless.. and wots so respectable about it??? is it gonna help u in any way? is it goin 2 help da dead in any way? nope, but prayin will so wots the point of the "silence" 2 think abt da dead?

the only thing i wud find offensive if that did happen, is if people didnt hav no sympathy 4 da dead, if the muslimz or wateva religion u r didnt pray 4 dem.. 2 b honest i dnt care if dey dnt do 1 min silence :?

maybe it is sumfin the west do.. but i dnt wana take part in it :? n surely i hav that right?
Reply

Somalina
07-13-2006, 09:52 PM
salaam

I didn't do it.i cant even remember wat i was doing!

I agree with everyone who did it,why not make a dua for our fellow muslims.


May Allah have Mercy on them N Us,Ameen
:)
Reply

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