The Question with NO Answer!!

[Tilmeez]

The Question with NO Answer
How will Israel "prevail" one day with brute force?
How will Zionism "solve" a problem that did NOT exist?
Zionism used FEAR to create what it claims to be a "Jewish National Home"
This sounds like driving on the wrong side of the street while ALL others drive on the right side.
Zionism claimed to have a solution to "ghettos" only to create the largest ghetto ever.
If you remember that around 65% of Israelis live in the coastal strip between Haifa and Gaza border.
If you look at the map and measure the distance between the sea shore and the wall: 18 kms. only
Did Zionism really achieve what it claimed all the time to have achieved?
What is a better short description of Israel than a "modern times ghetto"?

While you read these lines Israel has imprisoned a democratically elected parliament and the cabinet that was brought to power by a democratic process attested by International observers.
Zionism claims to have the "moral right" to do to others what it says Jews have been through...
This is equivalent to saying a thing is WRONG and RIGHT at the very same time!
It is WRONG when Jews are being persecuted.
It is RIGHT when the Jewish State is persecuting!
What sense does that make to a level-headed person?

Gaza is now under attack.
Reason given: one Israeli soldier has been taken prisoner.
Palestinian Resistance says "free women and children held prisoners" for us to free the soldier.
Simple demand to which Israel has responded with heavy shelling and plane strafing.

Israel claims it wants PEACE.
This peace is supposed to be with the indigenous population whom Israel has expelled.
While Israel talks peace it uses its military power to subjugate the very people it wants to live with.
Strange unprecedented formula that NEVER brought Israel anywhere near peace.

While you are reading these lines more Palestinian are being killed and rendered homeless.
Israel uses military power - thanks to Uncle Sam - to bring around tranquility from the muzzle of the gun.
Time alone will judge if this is a DREAM that will come TRUE..
Or if it is a nightmare that changed the HOLY LAND into a modern ghetto.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
The people of Israel are also suffering. Remember this.

[Trumble]

Gaza is now under attack.
Reason given: one Israeli soldier has been taken prisoner.
Palestinian Resistance says "free women and children held prisoners" for us to free the soldier.
Simple demand to which Israel has responded with heavy shelling and plane strafing.

You seem to have forgotten renewed rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets in that sketch... it is the areas from where those are launched that have been shelled and straffed, except when particular militants were specifically targetted.

For reasons that should be obvious, the Israelis cannot be seen to submit to "demands" from anybody, least of all the Palestinians. Quite simply, the political and military situation is such that the Palestinians are in no position to make them. If the Israelis had released any prisoners, next time any "resistance"/terrorist group wanted anything it would mean another kidnapping/capture/arrest and more "demands". They could not let that happen.

Whether right or wrong, it was a "simple demand" the Israelis could not respond to any other way, a fact which was patently obvious to Hamas. Those who kidnapped/captured/arrested the soldier knew EXACTLY what would happen, and bare equal responsibility for it. Unless they let the soldier go, I blame them far more than the Israelis for what may happen... because what is happening to innocent Palestinians now is what Hamas and the terror groups WANTED to happen. They don't care, as long as they can rant on about Zionist conspiracies, beat their chests, and wave their AK's in the air pretending they are actually achieving something.

[searcheroftruth]

Israel are pissing me off if they didn't have the west backing them they wouldn't existl in the middle east

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[snakelegs]

Whether right or wrong, it was a "simple demand" the Israelis could not respond to any other way, a fact which was patently obvious to Hamas. Those who kidnapped/captured/arrested the soldier knew EXACTLY what would happen, and bare equal responsibility for it. Unless they let the soldier go, I blame them far more than the Israelis for what may happen... because what is happening to innocent Palestinians now is what Hamas and the terror groups WANTED to happen. They don't care, as long as they can rant on about Zionist conspiracies, beat their chests, and wave their AK's in the air pretending they are actually achieving something.

well said! the results - the israeli response - was totally predictable.

[catmando]

You seem to have forgotten renewed rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets in that sketch... it is the areas from where those are launched that have been shelled and straffed, except when particular militants were specifically targetted.

For reasons that should be obvious, the Israelis cannot be seen to submit to "demands" from anybody, least of all the Palestinians. Quite simply, the political and military situation is such that the Palestinians are in no position to make them. If the Israelis had released any prisoners, next time any "resistance"/terrorist group wanted anything it would mean another kidnapping/capture/arrest and more "demands". They could not let that happen.

Whether right or wrong, it was a "simple demand" the Israelis could not respond to any other way, a fact which was patently obvious to Hamas. Those who kidnapped/captured/arrested the soldier knew EXACTLY what would happen, and bare equal responsibility for it. Unless they let the soldier go, I blame them far more than the Israelis for what may happen... because what is happening to innocent Palestinians now is what Hamas and the terror groups WANTED to happen. They don't care, as long as they can rant on about Zionist conspiracies, beat their chests, and wave their AK's in the air pretending they are actually achieving something.

That pretty much sums it up. Hamas has tried to abide by a cease-fire, but their extremists keep violating it. Until those elements can be reined in there will be no peace in Palestine.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

To the non-muslims here how do you know an extrimist from a moderate muslim?

[Dahir]

My Verdict and a couple of things:

Firstly, the kidnapped soldier is FAIR GAME! Israel had no right to call the kidnapping an act of terrorism, it was not civillian-oriented, nor did it harm ONE Israeli civillian! To me, if a soldier is kidnapped, the furthest I'd go would be to bargain and trade for Palestinian prisoners, that's it!


Secondly, Palestine is NOT a nation! When Israel attacks Gaza or West Bank, it is NOT defense, it is military brutality of the worst kind. "Palestine" doesn't exist, it has no flag, military, or even existence, and the attack on its soil is inhumane and unjustifiable! Gaza and West Bank do NOT even have an army to defend themselves, how can it be a war or "retaliation?"

Lastly, Israel attacking "Palestine" is equivalent to the United States army attacking "Indian Nation", a.k.a., the Indian Reservations. If a region is autonomous and non-sovereign, NO army is allowed to attack camp on its soil, PERIOD, sheesh, Israel should read the UN rule book a bit more carefully.

[bkzbest]

My Verdict and a couple of things:

Firstly, the kidnapped soldier is FAIR GAME! Israel had no right to call the kidnapping an act of terrorism, it was not civillian-oriented, nor did it harm ONE Israeli civillian! To me, if a soldier is kidnapped, the furthest I'd go would be to bargain and trade for Palestinian prisoners, that's it!

i kno ur rite brother why they kidnapp the palestinein and no big deal to them but if one of thm is kidnaped then they say terrorsit about paliestine.

[Dahir]

i kno ur rite brother why they kidnapp the palestinein and no big deal to them but if one of thm is kidnaped then they say terrorsit about paliestine.

I still can't believe it! I came to the conclusion that the kidnapee is ONLY A SOLDIER! A soldier, nothing else, soldiers are crafted to be killed, end of story. Either Israelis really love life, or this is the perfect opportunity for their military to have a "realistic exercise."

[bkzbest]

I still can't believe it! I came to the conclusion that the kidnapee is ONLY A SOLDIER! A soldier, nothing else, soldiers are crafted to be killed, end of story. Either Israelis really love life, or this is the perfect opportunity for their military to have a "realistic exercise."

i know one death for them is big deal but if a lot of palestinian inocint chilren they kill then its ok :grumbling

[Trumble]

:sl:

To the non-muslims here how do you know an extrimist from a moderate muslim?

Nobody is talking about extremist or moderate 'muslims', only extremist or moderate Palestinians - the division being a convenient one between those likely to kidnap Israeli soldiers or launch rockets across the border, and those who are not.

Yet again, this conflict is historically primarily political, not religious, however convenient it may sometimes be to pretend otherwise.

Firstly, the kidnapped soldier is FAIR GAME!

"Fair game"? Somebody else who seems to thing the whole thing is a football match. What has "fair" got to do with anything? Do you think his commanders and comrades consider him "fair game"? Its them who give the orders and drive the tanks, not whoever writes the "UN rulebook".

Secondly, Palestine is NOT a nation! When Israel attacks Gaza or West Bank, it is NOT defense, it is military brutality of the worst kind. "Palestine" doesn't exist, it has no flag, military, or even existence, and the attack on its soil is inhumane and unjustifiable! Gaza and West Bank do NOT even have an army to defend themselves, how can it be a war or "retaliation?"

As far as I am aware, the Israelis don't claim their actions to be either "war" or "retaliation". By your own logic, if there is no Palestinian nation or existence then whether Shalit was a soldier or not is irrelevant - his kidnapping could not be considered by the Israelis to be anything but a purely criminal act.

[Dahir]

his kidnapping could not be considered by the Israelis to be anything but a purely criminal act.

HE WAS AN ON-DUTY SOLDIER!!!

Do you not speak English!!!???

On-Duty means you better watch your back; SOLDIERS are a pawn of governments. Soldier = Militant! What's criminal about it? His death would be shocking, but kidnap/POW, that's one of the pillars of combat.

Okay, Trumble, you seem to not understand the rules of society:

Kidnap of Civillian = Crime

Kidnap of Soldier = POW/"Fair Game," casualty of combat, etc., NOT a crime!!

What's next, Trumble, you're going to tell me that the D-Day assault was a crime commited by the allies because they killed German soldiers. What's next, your'e going to tell me that the capture of Saddam Hussein was a crime commited by the US and UK?

Trumble, it seems you don't understand the thick line between SOLDIER and CIVILLIAN.

I hope most Israelis are smart enough to figure for themselves that kidnapping a soldier is and never will be a crime, but an act of combat.


Note: I did not refer to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a war. It is unbalanced, anti-UN combat/brutality at most.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Nobody is talking about extremist or moderate 'muslims', only extremist or moderate Palestinians - the division being a convenient one between those likely to kidnap Israeli soldiers or launch rockets across the border, and those who are not.

Yet again, this conflict is historically primarily political, not religious, however convenient it may sometimes be to pretend otherwise.

Your wrong, just cause someone is firing rockets doesn't make them a extrimist I bet some of those people don't even prey but if there land is attacked they'll defend it, and yes it is religious you mess with one group of muslims then your messing with the ummah.

[SirZubair]

:sl:
The people of Israel are also suffering. Remember this.

allhumdulilah Habibi,common sense is still alive.

And DAHIR,it doesnt matter wether it is a soldior or a civilian.

A human is a human.

If you are against the killing/kidnapping of Palestinians,then you should be against the kidnapping/killing of Israelies too.

MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT.

And if anyone here believes that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT,then you are following the wrong religon.Because that is not something islam teachs.

Wa'salaam.

[Trumble]

Do you not speak English!!!???

I do, but I'm afraid you really ought to read your own posts and consider their implications before asking such stupid questions. It's not my fault if you choose to string yourself up with your own arguments.

Kidnap of Civillian = Crime

Kidnap of Soldier = POW/"Fair Game," casualty of combat, etc., NOT a crime!!

If a state of war or armed conflict exists between two nations (even when the status of one as a nation is disputed, such as in assorted seperatist conflicts) that difference exists. As you claim that there is no Palestinian nation, no Palestinian armed forces and indeed that Palestine does not exist at all, a state of war cannot exist. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, likewise no form of legitimate "combat" can exist, therefore there can be no distinction between kidnapping a soldier or a civilian. Such a kidnapping MUST be a purely criminal act, as there is nothing else it can be (assuming kidnapping itself is considered criminal).

Okay, Trumble, you seem to not understand the rules of society

You can have all the "rules" you like; none have any relevance unless they are applied. Do the Israelis comply with them? Do Hamas and Islamic Jihaad? If so, then what is everybody complaining about?

What's next, Trumble, you're going to tell me that the D-Day assault was a crime commited by the allies because they killed German soldiers.

Now you are just being silly. The distinction is obvious; Germany existed, the German occupation of Northern France existed and a state of war existed.

What's next, your'e going to tell me that the capture of Saddam Hussein was a crime commited by the US and UK?

Again, no. The state of Iraq clearly existed, and still does. In any event the capture of a suspected criminal is not a crime - Saddam is NOT a "prisoner of war".

Note: I did not refer to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a war.

You implied that the Israelis did

Gaza and West Bank do NOT even have an army to defend themselves, how can it be a war or "retaliation?"

and I referred to it in that context.

:sl:

Your wrong, just cause someone is firing rockets doesn't make them a extrimist

When those rockets are targetted at civilians, it does in my book.

yes it is religious you mess with one group of muslims then your messing with the ummah.

This would be the same ummah that has, to all intents and purposes, treated the Palestinian people like dirt for most of the last 60 years, would it?

[Dahir]

Trumble,

You are free to call Hamas a terrorist group, you are free to call Palestinians delusional psychopaths, it is your freedom, and it is not debatable as everyone differs in opinion, HOWEVER:

You also said this in reply to my main question:

therefore there can be no distinction between kidnapping a soldier or a civilian. Such a kidnapping MUST be a purely criminal act, as there is nothing else it can be (assuming kidnapping itself is considered criminal).

War and Combat are not the same thing.

Combat: To oppose vigorously; struggle against.
War: A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.

Secondly,

Kidnapping a SOLDIER, no matter the party or nation, is a PAWN of WAR, not to be treated with the tenderness of a civillian! The rules of combat are layed out and tend to no parties special needs! ANYTHING that happens in the battlefield is NOT a crime, it is a condition of combat, nothing more!


SirZubair said this:

A human is a human.

If you are against the killing/kidnapping of Palestinians,then you should be against the kidnapping/killing of Israelies too.

SirZubair, did you bother to read my reply? I said nothing about Palestinian or Israeli CIVILLIANS!! I said if a SOLDIER, on EITHER SIDE, is KIDNAPPED, he is a PAWN of COMBAT!!

I don't care much for this neverending conflict as it wastes my energy, I only care that people distinctify the difference between SOLDIER and CIVILLIAN, ISRAELI or PALESTINIAN, no difference. I would feel the same if a Hamas Militant was kidnapped.

[snakelegs]

dahir and islam-truth,
can you tell me what hamas has achieved by this, except yet more suffering of their own people?
don't you think the israeli response was completely predictable?

[Malaikah]

And if anyone here believes that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT,then you are following the wrong religon.Because that is not something islam teachs.

:sl:

what exactly do you mean by might here?

[Dahir]

can you tell me what hamas has achieved by this, except yet more suffering of their own people?

When in the heck did I say Hamas achieved anything, this isn't about Hamas! This is about the difference between civillian kidnap and Military POW, that was my ONLY arguing point on this entire thread!

I know little about Hamas, I'm not Palestinian, this isn't my problem, I just state basic facts and prove points, not choose sides.

[SirZubair]

SirZubair, did you bother to read my reply? I said nothing about Palestinian or Israeli CIVILLIANS!! I said if a SOLDIER, on EITHER SIDE, is KIDNAPPED, he is a PAWN of COMBAT!!

I don't care much for this neverending conflict as it wastes my energy, I only care that people distinctify the difference between SOLDIER and CIVILLIAN, ISRAELI or PALESTINIAN, no difference. I would feel the same if a Hamas Militant was kidnapped.

Yes akhi,i did read your post.

That is why i said :

And DAHIR,it doesnt matter wether it is a soldior or a civilian.
A human is a human.

[SirZubair]

:sl:

what exactly do you mean by might here?

whoever feels that they are in power.

Israel feels that Israel is in power all year round.

Palestine (or maybe just the idiotic militants) think they are in power now because they have captured another creation of allah,..a son of adam,they feel that they are in control because they can chop his head off at any moment.

I think alot of people tend to forget that these people who our brothers keep on threatening to kill are,at the end of the day,our brothers too.

Maybe not our brothers in islam,but at the end of the day,they are sons of Adam a.s

Which means they are our brothers.

That is one of the main reasons i am against all sorts of killing.

Wa'salaam.