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iLL_LeaT
07-12-2006, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by kadafi
ARGUMENT FROM ACTIONS OF PROPHETS
  1. Muhammad killed.
  2. Jesus in the Bible did not.
Muhammad killed people?

Who? Why?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-12-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
sometimes i just don't understand you muslims and christians.
faith is not something you can prove, with scientific and concrete examples.
it is faith.
for the believer, his religion is true. that seems simple enough to me - why do you feel the need to try to "prove" anything, when it cannot be done???
Faith should not be placed in unreasonable or illogical doctrines. Faith should be constructed upon logical and objective study of the truth. You may be interested to read the following by Dr. Laurence Brown:
http://www.leveltruth.com/documents/Appendix3.pdf
Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT
Muhammad killed people?

Who? Why?
The Prophet pbuh fought with his companions in several battles to protect the nascent Muslim state against the agression of those who sought to eliminate them completely.
God revealed to the Muslims in the Qur'an:
22:39 Permission to fight is granted to the believers against whom war is waged and because they are oppressed. Certainly Allah has power to grant them victory.

Read more about the Prophet's biography here:
IslamToday

Regards
Reply

iLL_LeaT
07-12-2006, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
22:39 Permission to fight is given to the believers against whom war is waged and because they oppressed. Certainly Allah has power to grant them victory.
Who was against the Muslim way during Muhammad’s time? The Arabs? Was it a civil war?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-13-2006, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by iLL_LeaT
Who was against the Muslim way during Muhammad’s time? The Arabs? Was it a civil war?
It began with the Quraysh - the Prophet pbuh and his followers were persecuted and driven out of their homes in Makkah. For more information, I strongly suggest that you refer to the link I provided earlier on the Prophet's biography to obtain a basic understanding of the history of that time. Once you read through that, I would be happy to answer any additional questions you may have.

Regards
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wilberhum
07-13-2006, 10:30 PM
I’m always stunned at the concept that every tribe in the entire of Arabia fell into two groups. Theses that gave up there religion freely and accepted Mohammad’s god and him as god’s final prophet and those that waged war against the Muslims.

And more stunning is the concept that every Christian and every Jewish tribe, without exception, waged an aggressive war against the Muslims.

Even more stunning is the concept that there was not a single tribe that wanted to keep there religion and wanted to live in peace.

I don’t think anything in this world is that Black or White.
But then I guess that I’m just a skeptic.
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searchingsoul
07-13-2006, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I’m always stunned at the concept that every tribe in the entire of Arabia fell into two groups. Theses that gave up there religion freely and accepted Mohammad’s god and him as god’s final prophet and those that waged war against the Muslims.

And more stunning is the concept that every Christian and every Jewish tribe, without exception, waged an aggressive war against the Muslims.

Even more stunning is the concept that there was not a single tribe that wanted to keep there religion and wanted to live in peace.

I don’t think anything in this world is that Black or White.
But then I guess that I’m just a skeptic.
No Wilberhum I think you make some interesting points. I've been researching the spread of Islam and I've found early Christian sources which describe forced conversions, military(or religious) attacks, forced slavery, and such.

Personally, I think that people need to examine the documented historical accounts of both the muslims and non-muslims before arriving at the conclusion that Islam was not spread by force. I have an open thread entitled the Spread of Islam but I haven't received many responses.

I would really like to know if muslims are aware that non-muslim accounts exist which describe their version of Islams spread.

Personally I want to read the accounts of both sides before I arrive at an opinion. I think that carefull examination of this information will help me understand the history of conflict surrounding the major religions. I am sure that much of the hatred in todays world could be explained once the growth of Islam was thoroughly examined.

At this point I haven't researched this topic enough and feel unqualified to answer to the topics you addressed.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-14-2006, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I’m always stunned at the concept that every tribe in the entire of Arabia fell into two groups. Theses that gave up there religion freely and accepted Mohammad’s god and him as god’s final prophet and those that waged war against the Muslims.
Who said that every tribe fell into two groups? I said the conflict was initially between the Muslims and the Quraysh and alliances began to form on both sides. The long time tribal rivals of the Quraysh, the Banu Khuzâ'ah, allied with the Muslims, for example, other groups allied with the Quraysh. I never asked you to take my word for it or even worse draw imaginative assumptions about the historical situation - educate yourself and refer to the historical sources.
And more stunning is the concept that every Christian and every Jewish tribe, without exception, waged an aggressive war against the Muslims.
Completely untrue. The Christian tribe of Banû Taghlub in northern arabia remained at peace with the Islamic state throughout their expansion and were left alone, and the Christians of Najrân formed an alliance with the Muslims, offering their allegiance to the Islamic state. The Prophet pbuh made a complete peace treaty with the Jews of Madinah upon the establishment of the Islamic state there.
So please don't make assumptions and that falsely attribute statements to me. I only ask that you educate yourself and I have gone out of my way to outline useful resources for that purpose, such as the link I offered in my previous post on the Prophet's biography. Please read at least some of the material, and then if you have any questions, criticisms or objections I'll be happy to entertain them.

Is it any wonder that one would find one's own imaginative assumptions stunning in the wake of self-imposed ignorance?

Hi SearchingSoul,
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
No Wilberhum I think you make some interesting points. I've been researching the spread of Islam and I've found early Christian sources which describe forced conversions, military(or religious) attacks, forced slavery, and such.
By all means feel free to name EVEN ONE forced conversion which the Prophet pbuh carried out. By all means, bring forward your 'early christian sources' and we can analyze their factuality and validity. Which early christian sources are you referring to?
Personally, I think that people need to examine the documented historical accounts of both the muslims and non-muslims before arriving at the conclusion that Islam was not spread by force.
But here you have already made a conclusion. Normally people are innocent until proven guilty but you've betrayed your belief that Islam was spread by the sword and it needs to be proven that it wasn't. I don't mind having a factual debate and bringing forward the monumental historical evidence to refute the spread-by-the-sword myth, but one needs to examine one's own preconceived notions before feigning impartiality and objectivity.
I have an open thread entitled the Spread of Islam but I haven't received many responses.
Maybe because we already have a thread several pages long on the historical spread of Islam, in the refutations section. I wasn't aware of your thread; send me a pm and I'll do the moderating work,
I would really like to know if muslims are aware that non-muslim accounts exist which describe their version of Islams spread.
Of course we are, and we proudly display such non-muslim accounts:

Originally Posted by kadafi
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."
Author :
De Lacy O'Leary
Book Reference :
ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8

“The Renaissance of Europe did not take place in the 15th century. Rather it began when Europe learned from the culture of the Arabs. The cradle of European awakening is not Italy. It is the Muslim Spain.”
Author :
Robert Briffault
Book Reference :
The Making Of Mankind

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.
Author :
Lawrence E. Browne
Book Reference :
‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944


Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians.
Author :
James Addison
Book Reference :
'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.
Author :
A. S. Tritton
Book Reference :
in 'Islam,' 1951

No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience.

Author :
James Michener
Book Reference :
‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.
Author :
K. S. Ramakrishna Rao
Book Reference :
'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

We have never heard about any attempt to compel Non-Muslim parties to adopt Islam or about any organized persecution aiming at exterminating Christianity. If the Caliphs had chosen one of these plans, they would have wiped out Christianity as easily as what happened to Islam during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain; by the same method which Louis XIV followed to make Protestantism a creed whose followers were to be sentenced to death; or with the same ease of keeping the Jews away from Britain for a period of three hundred fifty years.
Author :
Thomas Arnold
Book Reference :
in 'The Call to Islam.'

This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region.)
Author :
Michael the Elder (Great)
Book Reference :
'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d’ Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901

Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians.
Author :
James Addison
Book Reference :
'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35

If you'd like my quotes or references, let me know.

Regards
Reply

wilberhum
07-14-2006, 05:16 PM
Ansar Al-'Adl'Adl
Who said that every tribe fell into two groups?
[MAD]I did.[/MAD]
You start out with the fallacy that I was addressing your statement.
It seams to be the concept behind what I hare read. And it is a concept that has perplexed me. So I will do some research on the information that you have provided and see how it affects my “self-imposed ignorance”.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-14-2006, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
[mad]I did.[/mad]
You start out with the fallacy that I was addressing your statement.
Considering I was the only one who posted on the subject in that thread, it was a reasonable assumption. Is it not the strawman fallacy to criticise a position the other doesn't hold?
It seams to be the concept behind what I hare read. And it is a concept that has perplexed me. So I will do some research on the information that you have provided and see how it affects my “self-imposed ignorance”.
Thanks. :)

Regards
Reply

wilberhum
07-14-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Considering I was the only one who posted on the subject in that thread, it was a reasonable assumption. Is it not the strawman fallacy to criticise a position the other doesn't hold?

Thanks. :)

Regards
I said it was a fallacy, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a reasonable assumption.
Of course it was a reasonable assumption, even if I never quoted anything you said.
But these kind of assumptions make me “wonder that one would find one's own imaginative assumptions stunning in the wake of self-imposed ignorance”, such as my own.
Maybe we have more in common that we will admit. :giggling:

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, and on with the research.
Banû Taghlub
All I could find was the following. I assume, correctly I hope that the Banû Taghlub you mentioned is the same as the Taghlub. Course if not, then the following is on no significance.

http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=80&chapter=11
Allah the Almighty says: {So We made them as tales (in the land), and We dispersed them all totally} i.e. after the destruction of their gardens, properties and land, they needed to travel and move away. Thus, they scattered in different parts of the land as some of them moved to the Hejaz, and Khuza' ah moved to Mecca. Some of them also moved to Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah, they were the first to inhabit it. Then, they were followed by three tribes from the Jews: the Banu Qainuqa', Banu Quraizah, and Banu An-Nadir. The Jews made coalitions with the Aus and Khazraj and lived there (till the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)). Some of them, moved to Sham (Syria) and afterwards they converted to Christianity: Ghassan, Amilah, Bahra', Lukham, Judham, Tanukh, Taghlub, and others
So did the Banû Taghlub suffer the destruction of everything and move away?

Najrân
I found no information.

Madinah
Very little historical information. But what I found sound peaceful.
But I also saw “the city only permits Muslims to enter”.
Is that true? If so what happened to all the non-believers?
As you said “made a complete peace treaty with the Jews of Madinah upon the establishment of the Islamic state there”. That sure sounds like they lost there independence and became subjects. Seams like the Jews got the short end of the treaty.
Makes me think about when a Kiwi friend told me that the Māori never lost. And I ask him who’s picture was on there money.

Are there any other examples? I’m not sure how much good it would do, there isn’t a lot of historical information about that period. Well as usual there is the history that is written by the victors. That’s not a knock, that’s just a fact. And it isn’t about Islam; it is about the benefit of victory. Think what history would have said if Germany had won WWII.

So if you go back to my original statement and change:
Every to almost every, without exception to with few exceptions, and not a single to almost none.
My statement would be more correct.
Though as I said “I guess that I’m just a skeptic”.
But what else can you expect form a person that suffers from “[S]self-imposed ignorance[/S]”.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-14-2006, 10:29 PM
Hi Wilber,
I mentioned these tribes as passing examples. If you want to research how exactly Islam spread in arabia at the time of the Prophet pbuh, it is best to start on page 1 rather than throwing onself into the middle of the book and trying to piece together the story. I'm more than happy to provide you with more information about these groups.

As I said earlier it was not a matter of the Muslims suddenly cropping up in the middle of arabia and everyone rushing to attack them. The Muslims were intially driven out of their homes in Makkah after being persecuted, so their conflict was initially between them and the Quraysh, while other tribes in the region watched to see how events would play themselves out. Rather than creating more conflicts, the Prophet pbuh sent delegations to many other groups for the purpose of peace treaties and creating allies. When the other arab tribes saw that a band of vagabonds, chased out of their homes and persecuted, had soon after triumphed over one of their oppressors, one of the most prominent tribes in Arabia, many more of them allied with the Muslims and opened themselves up to his teachings. The peaceful alliances were the cause of many more to enter into Islam and accept the simple and basic Islamic creed. They had witnessed the miraculous triumph of the Prophet Muhammad and they saw that all he called to was in-tune with the natural human disposition. There are over sixty tribes that sent delegations to the Prophet pbuh after his victory in Makkah.

About Najrân, Ibn Ishaq in his Sirah (biography of the Prophet) stated:
'When the delegation of Najrani Christians came to the Prophet at Madinah, they entered his mosque in the afternoon to meet him. It was their prayer time, so they began to perform their prayer in the mosque. Some Muslims were about to prevent them from doing so, but the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Let them pray.", So they faced eastward and performed their prayer.'
Showing again, the unique tolerance of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

As for what you quoted on Taghlub, this is clearly speaking about the time way before the Prophet pbuh came along. Ibn Kathir is providing in his book the explanation of the historians of how the Jewish and Christian tribes came to settle in arabia and he is correlating it with the Qur'anic verses. By the time the Prophet pbuh came along, there were Jewish tribes settled in Madinah, and a few christian tribes, like Banu Taghlub in northern arabia.

Coming to the Jewish tribes in Madinah, the Aws and the Khazraj has always been the political authorities in Madinah, and once they accepted Islam, their tribal rivalry and fighting ceased and the head political authority was now the Muslims. Dr. Hamidullah comments on the treaty made:
When the Prophet Mohammed settled down in Medina, he found there complete anarchy, the region having never known before either a State or a king to unite the tribes torn by internecine feuds. In just a few weeks, he succeeded in rallying all the inhabitants of the region into order. He constituted a city state, in which Muslims, Jews, pagan Arabs and also probably a small number of Christians, all entered into a statal organism by means of a social contract. The constitutional law of this first 'Muslim' State - which was the confederacy as a sequence of the multiplicity of the population groups - has come down to us in toto, and we read therein not only in clause 25: "to Muslims their religion, and to Jews their religion," or, "that there would be benevolence and justice," but even the unexpected passage in the same clause 25: "the Jews . . . are a community (in alliance) with - according Ibn Hisham and in the version of Abu-'Ubaid, a community (forming part) of - the believers (i.e., Muslims)." The very fact that, at the time of the constitution of this city-state, the autonomous Jewish villages acceded of their free will to the confederal State, and recognized Muhammad as their supreme political head, implies in our opinion that the non-Muslim subjects possessed the right of votes in the election of the head of the Muslim State, at least in so far as the political life of the country was concerned. (Hamidullah, Introduction to Islam, paragraphs 414-416)
Reply

wilberhum
07-14-2006, 11:12 PM
Good info. Thank you.
Do you know where I can find a detailed chronological history of the Arabian Peninsula?
There are lots of bits and peaces but never anything with enough detail to get a sense of what was really going on.
Maybe you can help save me from my “self-imposed ignorance
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-15-2006, 04:05 AM
Hi Wilber,
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Good info. Thank you.
You're welcome. :)
Do you know where I can find a detailed chronological history of the Arabian Peninsula?
Do you prefer books or websites? Al-Raheeq Al-Makhtum is accessible online:
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B..._tsn/index.htm
Also good for information on the history of the pre-islamic and post-islamic arabian peninsula are the biographies of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh by Adil Salahi, Dr. Mahdi Rizqullah Ahmad, and Dr. Ali Muhammad As-Sallaabee, in order of detail.
Maybe you can help save me from my “self-imposed ignorance
I apologise if that comment of mine caused offence; it was not my intention to insult.

Regards
Reply

wilberhum
07-17-2006, 07:05 PM
Ansar Al-'Adl'Adl
Again, thanks for the information.
And abut:
I apologise if that comment of mine caused offence; it was not my intention to insult.
Of course it was an insult, but that’s OK, really and there is no need for an apology. That’s your opinion and you have every right to it. If my skin was that thin, I would not be here. I guess in actuality I kind of like it as self incrimination and I will surly use it in the future.
Also, I’m aware that I can be quite abrasive and I’m probably not going to change. My attitude is “Never dish out what you can’t take”.
So all is well.
Wilber
Reply

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