Christin Missionary Against Islam

[kormath]

:sl: :)

Some of The Christian missionaries and the enemies of Islam and Muslims, used always to make misunderstanding among the sincere readers about Islam by false or corrupted statements and quatations. The last example which I read is the article "Dialog of the Deaf Separates Islam and West"of Melvin Rhodes, the Good News writer and reginioal pastor, Ghana. He writes:

[S]" Because the West has been influenced by biblical teachings, there is an assumption that all religions want peace, but clearly that is not true where Islam is concerned."[/S]
In other words, Westerners are very peaceloving people in the world, because of the influence of the bible teachings, but The Muslims on the contarary, war loving fellows, because of the Quranic teachings.For he writes:

"[S]In 632 Mohammed made his last visit to Mecca, and his speech there has been recorded in the traditional writings as the final statement of his message: "know that every Muslim is a Muslim's brother, and that the Muslims are brethren; fighting between them should be avoided…. Muslims should fight all men until they say, 'There is no god but Allah'" (A History of the Arab Peoples, by Albert Hourani, 1991, page 19).

Jesus Christ did not call for His followers to "fight all men" until they become Christians. Rather, He told His followers: "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44). He also said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight…" (John 18:36).

Clearly, these statements show a marked difference between Islam and Christianity, making dialog between the two highly problematic."[/S]Now I want not to answer the statements , for it was answered many times by the scholars. But I want to quat a latest news from the "Independent" . It will answer the claims of Melvin Rhodes clearly:

Former US soldier charged with rape and murder of '15-year-old' Iraqi girl

[S]A former American soldier recently returned from fighting in Iraq has been charged in a court in North Carolina in connection with the alleged rape of an Iraqi woman in March, as well as the murder of her and three members of her family. [/S][Independent Online Edition 04 July 2006 ]
Mr. Melvin, by which teaching was this American soldier influenced? My friend, let me recommend this site and www.harunyahya.com for learning about Islam and Muslims, if you are misunderstood the Islam. Goodbye, if you not such a person.

[Hijrah]

Well, as far as that sermon I don't thin he said that in there, go to the main load-islam page for this site and you will findan explanation for it it's just the same old rhetoric....I dont see how this guy isin a place to talk, he's nothing but a liar if he denies that there wasn't prophets who killed in that book..

[duskiness]

Hi Kader.
Does this statment:

Former US soldier charged with rape and murder of '15-year-old' Iraqi girl

make this statment false?:

Jesus Christ did not call for His followers to "fight all men" until they become Christians. Rather, He told His followers: "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44). He also said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight…" (John 18:36).

You are using the same logic i would use when saying "Islam is a religion of peace??? then look what happend in NY, Madrid, London".
Do you like it?
n.

[Zionazi_Dissent]

I can debunk this man ijn minutes, but as a Muslim, it is my duty to respect other faiths. Apparently Chritians dont believe in this.

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[Phil12123]

Some of The Christian missionaries and the enemies of Islam and Muslims, used always to make misunderstanding among the sincere readers about Islam by false or corrupted statements and quotations. The last example which I read is the article "Dialog of the Deaf Separates Islam and West"of Melvin Rhodes, the Good News writer and reginioal pastor, Ghana. He writes:

[S]" Because the West has been influenced by biblical teachings, there is an assumption that all religions want peace, but clearly that is not true where Islam is concerned."[/S]
In other words, Westerners are very peaceloving people in the world, because of the influence of the bible teachings, but The Muslims on the contarary, war loving fellows, because of the Quranic teachings. For he writes:

"[S]In 632 Mohammed made his last visit to Mecca, and his speech there has been recorded in the traditional writings as the final statement of his message: "know that every Muslim is a Muslim's brother, and that the Muslims are brethren; fighting between them should be avoided…. Muslims should fight all men until they say, 'There is no god but Allah'" (A History of the Arab Peoples, by Albert Hourani, 1991, page 19).

Jesus Christ did not call for His followers to "fight all men" until they become Christians. Rather, He told His followers: "Love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44). He also said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight…" (John 18:36).

Clearly, these statements show a marked difference between Islam and Christianity, making dialog between the two highly problematic."[/S]Now I want not to answer the statements, for it was answered many times by the scholars. But I want to quote a latest news from the "Independent". It will answer the claims of Melvin Rhodes clearly:

Former US soldier charged with rape and murder of '15-year-old' Iraqi girl

[S]A former American soldier recently returned from fighting in Iraq has been charged in a court in North Carolina in connection with the alleged rape of an Iraqi woman in March, as well as the murder of her and three members of her family. [/S][Independent Online Edition 04 July 2006]
Mr. Melvin, by which teaching was this American soldier influenced? My friend, let me recommend this site and www.harunyahya.com for learning about Islam and Muslims, if you are misunderstood the Islam. Goodbye, if you not such a person.

First, the soldier in an American court is presumed innocent until proven guilty. You have already convicted him without any trial. Now, if you want to discuss his case in terms of.... IF he is found guilty (or pleads guilty, or confesses to the crime), then, by which teaching was this American soldier influenced?

Secondly, to answer that question, we need to know more about the man. Is he a Muslim or a Christian or an atheist or a Buddhist or what? Do you automatically assume an American soldier is a Christian simply because he is an American? He may have rejected biblical teaching as well as quaranic teaching all his life. We have to start with the fact that ALL people are sinners, whether born and raised in America or in Iraq, AND whether professing a religious belief or professing NO religious belief at all.

Actually, I don't think that news story is even relevant to the statements of Melvin Rhodes. What I would like to know, now that you mentioned it, is whether his statements are TRUE regarding the speech given by Mohammed. What do the scholars you mention say?

Peace

[adeeb]

salam

my comment on this issue,
we can't say anything if we don't know what it is. and don't just take a sentence from hundreds and thousands without knowing the situation.

we can't compare the islamic teaching and the christian with only one sentence or one aspect.
this is the fault from both the missionary and also brother kader. there are a lot of aspect different between two religions.

for example;
muslim should fight all men, until they say " there is no god but Allah"
that's an islamic teaching? yes, that's true
but Muhammad (pbuh) also teach us the steps before "fight"
we have to introduce what islam is, we teach "all men" who is Allah, who is Muhammad. etc with peace.. in Muhammad era there were also Jews and christians in this world but Muhammad not just "fight" them and make them a muslim. We are allowed to fight if non muslim fight us first. Muhammad and his companions always fight after ask them (the non muslim) to be a muslim and give them a good knowledge about Islam... and noe the situation is really different with our prophet era.

i also invite brothers or sisters that can give the verses about this problem.
thank you

wassalam

[Woodrow]

We tend to overlook the fact that Muslims and Christians do not accept the same sources for truth. The Qur'an probably is a difficult guide to use as a source of truth when speaking to a non-Muslim. The Bible probably is a difficult guide to use as a source of truth when speaking to a non-Christian.


It is only through open honest dialouge can doors of communication be opened and each needs to present why what he believes is true and stay away from trying to prove what the other believes is false.

The author of the arguement mentioned in the opening topic made the error of trying to proof Islam is false. He would have had a more understandable and debatable subject if he stuck to trying to proof his beliefs. I believe the Minister that is responsible for the article, gave an excellent example on how not to discuss religious beliefs.

People oftren get tied up in emotions when discussing their religious beliefs and then the things said and done are not necessarly based on truth, but are based on what is wished to be truth.

[Quruxbadaan]

salam

my comment on this issue,
we can't say anything if we don't know what it is. and don't just take a sentence from hundreds and thousands without knowing the situation.

we can't compare the islamic teaching and the christian with only one sentence or one aspect.
this is the fault from both the missionary and also brother kader. there are a lot of aspect different between two religions.

for example;
muslim should fight all men, until they say " there is no god but Allah"
that's an islamic teaching? yes, that's true
but Muhammad (pbuh) also teach us the steps before "fight"
we have to introduce what islam is, we teach "all men" who is Allah, who is Muhammad. etc with peace.. in Muhammad era there were also Jews and christians in this world but Muhammad not just "fight" them and make them a muslim. We are allowed to fight if non muslim fight us first. Muhammad and his companions always fight after ask them (the non muslim) to be a muslim and give them a good knowledge about Islam... and noe the situation is really different with our prophet era.

i also invite brothers or sisters that can give the verses about this problem.
thank you

wassalam

salaams

listen

Islam does not insight violence or hatred towards people The prophet (peace be upon him) is chosen by allah The creator of the heavens & earth to relay the messege of islam ( the True path) to the people

Allah subhannah wa tallah says in the last verse of surat Kafirun

"To you your faith And to me MIne"

The preist whoes saying all that garbage about Islam being violent and the prophet insiting violence has taken the words of the beloved prophet out of context

Frankly Im starting to feel like the man added his own two scents to paint islam a horrible color Perhaps he felt intimidated by the fact that islam is Growing At An Amazing rate here in the west and is now the fastest growing religion on the world ???

Anyway Only fools who cant find the information for themselfs and read it themselfs believe that nonesence
and really if they are followers and cant pick up a book for themselfs than let them believ it


Peace

[mujahedeen2087]

I can debunk this man ijn minutes, but as a Muslim, it is my duty to respect other faiths. Apparently Chritians dont believe in this.

exactly christians are always preaching to me about their faith but everytime i bring up islam they always tell me how it is false and that jesus loves me, that i should leave this religion of violence.

[north_malaysian]

In my country, if a Christian preaching his religion to me, I have to say I'm a Muslim. Which means he should stop preaching. If he still insist to preach Christianity, I could make a police report because he (the Christian preacher) committed a crime. In Malaysia propagations towards Muslims of other religions (including non Sunni Islamic sects) are prohibited.

[ACC]

In my country, if a Christian preaching his religion to me, I have to say I'm a Muslim. Which means he should stop preaching. If he still insist to preach Christianity, I could make a police report because he (the Christian preacher) committed a crime. In Malaysia propagations towards Muslims of other religions (including non Sunni Islamic sects) are prohibited.

So on the flip side, do you think Muslims should be detained and charged with a crime for preaching to Christians? This would be only fair.

[Woodrow]

So on the flip side, do you think Muslims should be detained and charged with a crime for preaching to Christians? This would be only fair.

I have yet to see or hear any Muslim preach to a non-Muslim, except in defence of our belief when responding to preaching from a non-Muslim. I do not know of any Muslim who has ever asked a non-Muslim to become Muslim.

[ACC]

I have yet to see or hear any Muslim preach to a non-Muslim, except in defence of our belief when responding to preaching from a non-Muslim. I do not know of any Muslim who has ever asked a non-Muslim to become Muslim.

This may be true, I dont know. Yet, it does not answer the question. Should the same penalty be given to a Muslim that attempts to convert a non-muslim?

[north_malaysian]

In Malaysia, there lots of Muslim missionaries, I've observed one mission to convert pagan aborigines deep in the jungle in the State of Pahang to Islam. After one year they manage to convert 33% of the tribe people. Mostly women and children. I've heard that the most extensive Islamic propagation is in the Jungle of Sarawak among tribes who are dissastified with local Catholic Church. During the commonwealth games 1998, all hotel rooms are supplied by a Missionary group a Koran in each room.

PERKIM, is a missionary group actively convert urban people (Chinese, Indians, Westerners) to Islam.

And Malaysia is the hq for RISEAP, a big Islamic missionary organization coordinating Islamic missionary work in Asia-Pacific region. Very successful in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Taiwan, Papua New Guinea.

[Woodrow]

This may be true, I dont know. Yet, it does not answer the question. Should the same penalty be given to a Muslim that attempts to convert a non-muslim?

I believe it is going to be a local issue more than an Islamic issue. In my younger days traveling throughout the mid-east I was not Muslim and during the early period I was pretty much a bible thumping Christian. I was never approached by anyone to become Muslim. Although I could not speak openly of Christianity, I could in the privacy of my home or friends home. Plus there were many open Christian Churches. I've attended Catholic masses openly in Morocco, Algeria, and several other Mediterranian region countries. Of course I was quite young then as in my early 20s I became essentialy agnostic. But, I never had a Muslim attempt to get me to revert to Islam.

[MRR]

But, I never had a Muslim attempt to get me to revert to Islam.

Perhaps because they didn't care about your western kafir butt. Just a kafir, let him perish.
Just a thought. Any chance that this had something to do with it?

[north_malaysian]

Perhaps because they didn't care about your western kafir butt. Just a kafir, let him perish.
Just a thought. Any chance that this had something to do with it?

This is an insult!!! Muslims (mostly) dont go preaching Islam from house to house, or preaching Islam towards non muslim in public square, or give pamphlets about Islam etc because it's not part of our cultures (from Morocco to Southern Philippines, from Tatarstan to Comoros Islands).

When Christians came with this methods in Muslim lands, of course Muslims dont like it. But in these modern days many Muslim missionaries adapted Christian methods (especially the Ahmadiyya)

[MRR]

This is an insult!!! Muslims (mostly) dont go preaching Islam from house to house, or preaching Islam towards non muslim in public square, or give pamphlets about Islam etc because it's not part of our cultures (from Morocco to Southern Philippines, from Tatarstan to Comoros Islands).

When Christians came with this methods in Muslim lands, of course Muslims dont like it. But in these modern days many Muslim missionaries adapted Christian methods (especially the Ahmadiyya)

Oh boo! hoo! Stop being so sensitive. You find insults where you look for them, it's easy if you are looking. It is not an insult. It's a question, reread the post.
Perhaps the question would be better answered by Woodrow.

[avk]

Al salam aleikom (peace be upon you all)
Well since I know some information about this topic is it would be unwise for me to keep it formyself and rather share it with others.

1- Christianity tells us not to fight among our human brotheren. I respect that , however applying this theory to logical and realistc reality IT CANNOT BE APPLIED. If a man comes inside your house rapes your wife kills your children and tries to kill you are you going to stand up and give him huge bear kisses and hugs ??? This contradictes any realistic situation. Now coming to islam , It is clear that we only fight in order to defend ourselves or defend our message. When the prophet SAW Mohammad says fight till the word (There is no god but Allah) reaches humanity we do not take it litreally my friend as in to fight but it means to spread the message even if means we will fight to do that

2- As for the issue about christians preaching to muslims , well my friend if we are truely living in a christian theological country today and I go and preach islam God knows what will happen to me. Remember your nemesis churches back in the mid evil times ? and this was applied to christians who went againt their own trinitarian theology . What of the world we live today ? My christian brother , this is not a christian country its a secular country meaning to seperate religion from political system. If it was truely applying christian theology we would not have gay bars floating around and prostitution and night strip clubs (since fornication is abandoned in christianity) thus when you come and say its fair that US and UK allow islamic preaching while muslim countreis like Saudia Arabia or Malaysia dont well brother compre the judical systems.
Now lets try to see is it truely forbidden to preach christianity in islamic countries ??? Well churches exist almost in all arab countries , christians from old times (coptic and mormons) also live aside muslims ? thus lets say there is a muslim who was interested in the preachings of christianity well the christian brothers will be there to help him.

[north_malaysian]

Oh boo! hoo! Stop being so sensitive. You find insults where you look for them, it's easy if you are looking. It is not an insult. It's a question, reread the post.
Perhaps the question would be better answered by Woodrow.

:p :p :p :p :p

Woodrow, answer him!!!

[Phil12123]

In my younger days traveling throughout the mid-east I was not Muslim and during the early period I was pretty much a bible thumping Christian. I was never approached by anyone to become Muslim. Although I could not speak openly of Christianity, I could in the privacy of my home or friends home. Plus there were many open Christian Churches. I've attended Catholic masses openly in Morocco, Algeria, and several other Mediterranian region countries. Of course I was quite young then as in my early 20s I became essentialy agnostic. But, I never had a Muslim attempt to get me to revert to Islam.

Woodrow, maybe I'm the only one, but I find stories like yours very interesting --- how and why you became a Muslim, from whatever you were before that, to the point where you decided Islam was the right religion, etc. I guess that would be your "testimony." Do you suppose that would be an interesting thread to start--- people giving a short synopsis of why and how they came to believe what they believe, whether Muslim or Christian or Sikh or whatever? I just find it fascinating how people came to their faith, and why they feel they now have "the truth" and thereby feel fulfilled or whatever. And it wouldn't be a thread where, after telling such a story, anyone would need to defend it. No arguments, just stories.

Peace

[Woodrow]

Perhaps because they didn't care about your western kafir butt. Just a kafir, let him perish.
Just a thought. Any chance that this had something to do with it?

There is always a chance of that anything may be.

Perhaps that could be true. However, my memories of those days are very pleasant and I was never treated with anything except courtesy. I was often treated much as a family member.

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, maybe I'm the only one, but I find stories like yours very interesting --- how and why you became a Muslim, from whatever you were before that, to the point where you decided Islam was the right religion, etc. I guess that would be your "testimony." Do you suppose that would be an interesting thread to start--- people giving a short synopsis of why and how they came to believe what they believe, whether Muslim or Christian or Sikh or whatever? I just find it fascinating how people came to their faith, and why they feel they now have "the truth" and thereby feel fulfilled or whatever. And it wouldn't be a thread where, after telling such a story, anyone would need to defend it. No arguments, just stories.

Peace

Actually somewhere around here I did such a post on a thread. Perhaps I can find it and wake it up.

[Phil12123]

As for the issue about christians preaching to muslims , well my friend if we are truely living in a christian theological country today and I go and preach islam God knows what will happen to me. Remember your nemesis churches back in the mid evil times ? and this was applied to christians who went againt their own trinitarian theology . What of the world we live today?

The world today is not like the middle ages or medieval times. Today, at least in the West, you as a Muslim can preach all you want to anyone you want. Many may ignore you but no one would arrest you. Not so, unfortuately, in Muslim countries where they have no freedom of religion to spread the truth if it disagrees with the official state religion of Islam.

Now lets try to see is it truely forbidden to preach christianity in islamic countries ??? Well churches exist almost in all arab countries , christians from old times (coptic and mormons) also live aside muslims ? thus lets say there is a muslim who was interested in the preachings of christianity well the christian brothers will be there to help him.

But how many Islamic countries encourage such preaching? There are absolutely NO churches in Saudi Arabia and NO freedom to preach anything but Islam. In many countries like that, the constitution gives Islam favored status and may even prohibit any proselytizing. And in some (most? all?) Islamic countries it is a crime to convert from Islam to Christianity punishable by death.

Peace

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, maybe I'm the only one, but I find stories like yours very interesting --- how and why you became a Muslim, from whatever you were before that, to the point where you decided Islam was the right religion, etc. I guess that would be your "testimony." Do you suppose that would be an interesting thread to start--- people giving a short synopsis of why and how they came to believe what they believe, whether Muslim or Christian or Sikh or whatever? I just find it fascinating how people came to their faith, and why they feel they now have "the truth" and thereby feel fulfilled or whatever. And it wouldn't be a thread where, after telling such a story, anyone would need to defend it. No arguments, just stories.

Peace

I believe my short story would be in line with the topic here, mostly to show that my reversion was not the result of anyone preaching Islam to me.

I did not revert until I was 65 years old. I knew very much about Islam, in a scholastic manner for many years. But, I never saw what it meant until I was 65.

I was born in a very good Christian home. Did everything in line with the teachings of the Church. I felt very close to God(swt) and had accepted Jesus(pbuh) as my personal savior.

When I reached my mid twenties, I still loved God(swt) but I no longer agreed with the teachings of the Church. I became, an Agnostic calling myself Buddhist, not so much as a religion, but rather as a philosophy of life.

I was very blessed with having the opportunity to pursue a very good academic life. One of my Favorite studies was languages. I also was very much interested in Philosophy and Comparative Religions. My undergraduate days were actualy in a Seminary.

My first career was as an USAF Combat Pilot. After being severly injured my Military career came to an early end. I then pursued mechanical engineering and ended up working as a Draftsman (Draughtsman for the old spelling). During that time I also continued my education torn between Biology and Psychology. I also had the opportunity to do considerable traveling. Lived in quite a few different places. I kept my interest in Languages and pursued the Arabic Language. During that time I did manage to get a copy of the Qur'an all in Arabic. I used it as a means to develope my Arabic skills. I was also interested in reading it as an informational source about Islam.

Well during the years I had 3 Children 2 girls and a son. The two Girls were interested in the Arabic Language. At an early age they reverted to Islam. My grandchildren were all born Muslim. So, I had contact with Muslims. But, I still felt it was not what I was seeking.

When I was 63 years old I ran into some very difficult times. My wife passed away unexpectadly. I became severly ill with a very poor prognosis. I had not had any close contact with my children for nearly 15 years.

In the year or so after loosing my wife I had made a few bad business investments and was about to loose my farm. My outlook appeared to be that very soon I was to loose all and spend the remainder of my days as an invalid in a nursing home.


Finaly one day when I was 65 years old I decided to brush up on my language skills by reading the Qur'an again. For some reason, it looked different. I was not looking at it as a scholar, I was FEELING it, I do not know how long or how many times I read it in the next day or two. But, then I knew, I had to say the Shahadah, I said it to Allah(swt) immediatly. I was instantly filled with a warm glow and a sense of reassurance that all would be alright. I had been living as a recluse for several months and now I felt the overwhelming comfort of the presense of love surrounding me. I did not even know if there were any Mosques in Texas and did not know any Muslims. The next day I met a Muslim, he told me of a mosque 60 miles away. That Friday I repeated the Shahadah at the Masjid.

For those who have read my story before, I added a bit more about my life at that time.

[Phil12123]

I believe my short story would be in line with the topic here, mostly to show that my reversion was not the result of anyone preaching Islam to me.

I did not revert until I was 65 years old. I knew very much about Islam, in a scholastic manner for many years. But, I never saw what it meant until I was 65.

I was born in a very good Christian home. Did everything in line with the teachings of the Church. I felt very close to God(swt) and had accepted Jesus(pbuh) as my personal savior.

When I reached my mid twenties, I still loved God(swt) but I no longer agreed with the teachings of the Church. I became, an Agnostic calling myself Buddhist, not so much as a religion, but rather as a philosophy of life.

I was very blessed with having the opportunity to pursue a very good academic life. One of my Favorite studies was languages. I also was very much interested in Philosophy and Comparative Religions. My undergraduate days were actualy in a Seminary.

My first career was as an USAF Combat Pilot. After being severly injured my Military career came to an early end. I then pursued mechanical engineering and ended up working as a Draftsman (Draughtsman for the old spelling). During that time I also continued my education torn between Biology and Psychology. I also had the opportunity to do considerable traveling. Lived in quite a few different places. I kept my interest in Languages and pursued the Arabic Language. During that time I did manage to get a copy of the Qur'an all in Arabic. I used it as a means to develope my Arabic skills. I was also interested in reading it as an informational source about Islam.

Well during the years I had 3 Children 2 girls and a son. The two Girls were interested in the Arabic Language. At an early age they reverted to Islam. My grandchildren were all born Muslim. So, I had contact with Muslims. But, I still felt it was not what I was seeking.

When I was 63 years old I ran into some very difficult times. My wife passed away unexpectadly. I became severly ill with a very poor prognosis. I had not had any close contact with my children for nearly 15 years.

In the year or so after loosing my wife I had made a few bad business investments and was about to loose my farm. My outlook appeared to be that very soon I was to loose all and spend the remainder of my days as an invalid in a nursing home.


Finaly one day when I was 65 years old I decided to brush up on my language skills by reading the Qur'an again. For some reason, it looked different. I was not looking at it as a scholar, I was FEELING it, I do not know how long or how many times I read it in the next day or two. But, then I knew, I had to say the Shahadah, I said it to Allah(swt) immediatly. I was instantly filled with a warm glow and a sense of reassurance that all would be alright. I had been living as a recluse for several months and now I felt the overwhelming comfort of the presense of love surrounding me. I did not even know if there were any Mosques in Texas and did not know any Muslims. The next day I met a Muslim, he told me of a mosque 60 miles away. That Friday I repeated the Shahadah at the Masjid.

For those who have read my story before, I added a bit more about my life at that time.

Very interesting. Couple questions, if you don't mind. By reversion, do you mean "conversion"? When you accepted Jesus as your personal savior, were you very young and yet understanding what that meant, and do you still consider Him to be your personal savior?

Peace

[Woodrow]

Very interesting. Couple questions, if you don't mind. By reversion, do you mean "conversion"? When you accepted Jesus as your personal savior, were you very young and yet understanding what that meant, and do you still consider Him to be your personal savior?

Peace

I consider it a reversion not a conversion, not in the sense you probably consider conversion. I believe I was always a Muslim but had converted to other beliefs. When I reverted I had returned to what I always was. You will quite often hear reverts from Christianity say it is a feeling very much like returning home after a long absence.

I was 12 years old when I accepted Christ(as). I truly believed he was my key to heaven and that He(as) had given me all I needed. I searched much of my life trying to learn what He(as) wanted me to do to serve Him(as). I still have deep love for Him(as). I finaly realised that His(as) original message was how we were to Submit to God(swt) and it is God(swt) who is the only one who can forgive us of our sins and reward us in heaven.

[avk]

[QUOTE=Phil12123;418310]The world today is not like the middle ages or medieval times. Today, at least in the West, you as a Muslim can preach all you want to anyone you want. Many may ignore you but no one would arrest you. Not so, unfortuately, in Muslim countries where they have no freedom of religion to spread the truth if it disagrees with the official state religion of Islam.

Yes I agree totally to that however , you did not seem to get my point and diveresed away. Im saying is the world of the west today are not practicing christian laws in their judical systems (their govermental system) they are practicing secular system. If they were truely practicing a christian system or a christian state then we would have a different type of goverment other than Bush administration or Blairs office. Today in the US , strip clubs are allowed (against the bible) and prostitution allowed(also goes against christian judical laws) these are simple examples that the US is not truely practicing the christian law. Now lets look back through history at an era which did practice a christian state, i.e. the church.
The church were always specificying how they are the deciples and sons of god and how theier system must be practicied as civil law and govermental law. So lets look at how they used to apply these laws.
They used to follow the bible and at the same time anyone who would go against their teachings (apostates) would be killed. In a point of history in that time many christians argued against the tirinitarian system and were slaughetered in masses by the church.
So now lets say America today wants to follow the christian system 100% unlike what its doing today , then If I as a muslim go and preach my religion I WOULD BE SLAUGHTERED by the church because im going against their beleif. Thus your faith my friend does not tolerate other religions , and dont say United states because US is not a fully christian land or country thats why its ok for muslims to preach there not because your religion is tolerant.

[ACC]

I believe it is going to be a local issue more than an Islamic issue. In my younger days traveling throughout the mid-east I was not Muslim and during the early period I was pretty much a bible thumping Christian. I was never approached by anyone to become Muslim. Although I could not speak openly of Christianity, I could in the privacy of my home or friends home. Plus there were many open Christian Churches. I've attended Catholic masses openly in Morocco, Algeria, and several other Mediterranian region countries. Of course I was quite young then as in my early 20s I became essentialy agnostic. But, I never had a Muslim attempt to get me to revert to Islam.

This still has not answered the original question. Do you believe that if there is a penalty for Christians attempting to convert Muslims, then should the same penalty apply for Muslims attempting to convert Christians?

[Woodrow]

This still has not answered the original question. Do you believe that if there is a penalty for Christians attempting to convert Muslims, then should the same penalty apply for Muslims attempting to convert Christians?

Perhaps a clearer answer from me would be my personal thoughts. I believe prostelyzing any religion is wrong. I do not believe it is right for any body to go door to door in an attempt to convert anyone. I believe that if a person desires to promote their religion it should be done through the actions of how they live. They should be available to answer question asked and know enough about their religion to answer basic questions.

Now about punishments or rewards for anyone trying to convert others, that should be between them and God(SWT).

On a personal basis I do not believe a non-Muslim should be prosecuted for trying to convert Muslims. They do so out of ignorance and should be forgiven.

But I do believe that in an Islamic Country any Muslim who converts to any other belief should be prosecuted for treason. This is because there is no seperation from Church and State, to go against one is to go against both.


Now to better explain what my personal belief is. It would be easier to do so with an analogy. If a Catholic Priest were to into a Baptist church carrying a large Statue of Mary, the pastor of the Church would be within his rights to ask him to not bring the Statue in or not enter the Church. I believe once he steps foot into the Church it would be acceptable for the Pastor and the members to try to convert him. It would be acceptable for him to be forbidden to convert any member to Catholochism while in the Church and it would be acceptable to excommunicate any members the Priest did convert to Catholochism.

So it is when a non-Muslim enters an Islamic Country. They are not entering into just a country. They are entering into the Place of worship. They are Guests in the Muslim's Mosque.

[iLL_LeaT]

[S]" Because the West has been influenced by biblical teachings, there is an assumption that all religions want peace, but clearly that is not true where Islam is concerned."[/S]
In other words, Westerners are very peaceloving people in the world, because of the influence of the bible teachings, but The Muslims on the contarary, war loving fellows, because of the Quranic teachings.For he writes

People by nature are very ethnocentric.

People that preach Islam as being a terrorist religion are making uneducated bias conclusions.

As people become educated on different cultures, they become more understanding and their conclusions become less biased. So, in my opinion, education is the key to understanding.

Since 9/11 Muslims have been looked at as “bad” from some people in western counties. However, more and more people are becoming educated in Islam because of this focus on Muslims. So, though, more people feel a sort of unfriendliness towards Muslims, there seems to be an equilibrium effect going on because more people are becoming very understanding. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 20 years or so, most of the western world would be very understanding of the Islamic way.

[iLL_LeaT]

Ummm? Deleting this post

[ACC]

Perhaps a clearer answer from me would be my personal thoughts. I believe prostelyzing any religion is wrong. I do not believe it is right for any body to go door to door in an attempt to convert anyone. I believe that if a person desires to promote their religion it should be done through the actions of how they live. They should be available to answer question asked and know enough about their religion to answer basic questions.

Now about punishments or rewards for anyone trying to convert others, that should be between them and God(SWT).

On a personal basis I do not believe a non-Muslim should be prosecuted for trying to convert Muslims. They do so out of ignorance and should be forgiven.

But I do believe that in an Islamic Country any Muslim who converts to any other belief should be prosecuted for treason. This is because there is no seperation from Church and State, to go against one is to go against both.


Now to better explain what my personal belief is. It would be easier to do so with an analogy. If a Catholic Priest were to into a Baptist church carrying a large Statue of Mary, the pastor of the Church would be within his rights to ask him to not bring the Statue in or not enter the Church. I believe once he steps foot into the Church it would be acceptable for the Pastor and the members to try to convert him. It would be acceptable for him to be forbidden to convert any member to Catholochism while in the Church and it would be acceptable to excommunicate any members the Priest did convert to Catholochism.

So it is when a non-Muslim enters an Islamic Country. They are not entering into just a country. They are entering into the Place of worship. They are Guests in the Muslim's Mosque.

Fair response. I would be lying if I said I agreed with you, but I suspect that you already knew that.

For myself I think that people should be allowed to attempt to convert whoever they want, regardless of what religion is doing the preaching. I was taught that if you want to prove that your belief is the truth, then you should welcome all challengers.

One massive fundamental difference between Christian and therefore Western nations and Islamic nations is the seperation of Church and state. This is a massive difference that I doubt will be resolved easily, or peacefully for that matter in the future.

[Woodrow]

Fair response. I would be lying if I said I agreed with you, but I suspect that you already knew that.

For myself I think that people should be allowed to attempt to convert whoever they want, regardless of what religion is doing the preaching. I was taught that if you want to prove that your belief is the truth, then you should welcome all challengers.

One massive fundamental difference between Christian and therefore Western nations and Islamic nations is the seperation of Church and state. This is a massive difference that I doubt will be resolved easily, or peacefully for that matter in the future.

And your response is also fair and understandable. There is no law that says we need to agree, on many issues we may never agree. But we can always agree to disagree peacefully.

Yes, we do have many differences and most of them will not be resolved. However, we can all learn we do have differences and we each have a right to our differences.

I can understand, how for a non-Muslim, our desire for no seperation between Church and State is a problem.

It is difficult for a non-Muslim to comprehend our concept that there is no stand alone Church, all things and all aspects of our life are the Church. A woman washing dishes is as much in prayer as a man prostrating in a Mosque. Laws are not to please us they are to help us serve God(swt). The head of State needs to be more knowledgable in the Qur'an then in treaties.

I may be a bit optomistic, but I believe that to serve God(swt) is for us to live in Peace. Therefore I feel that if we open our minds we will find a means to peacefully resolve our differences.

One reason many Muslims are offended at the intrusion of a non-Muslim attempting to convert us, is because we see our selves as being in prayer, no matter what we do. This is why we begin all things by saying "Bismillallahi ir Rahman ir Raheem" (In the name of God(swt) the Beneficient, the Most Forgiving) We strive to do all things as a prayer to God(swt). The words of someone trying to convert us, is a distraction from our prayers.

[Looking4Peace]

I believe my short story would be in line with the topic here, mostly to show that my reversion was not the result of anyone preaching Islam to me.

your story sounds much like mine yet im alot younger, everything from the college majors to religious transitions. This is scary lol

[dougmusr]

I have yet to see or hear any Muslim preach to a non-Muslim, except in defence of our belief when responding to preaching from a non-Muslim. I do not know of any Muslim who has ever asked a non-Muslim to become Muslim.

If you feel Islam is true, and you feel its teachings offer hope in life today and the hereafter, why would you not share it with others? Isn't that what the quote below tells you to do? As I Christian, I share the message of Christ with others because that's what He did, and what He told His followers to do.

we have to introduce what islam is, we teach "all men" who is Allah, who is Muhammad. etc with peace.. in Muhammad era there were also Jews and christians in this world but Muhammad not just "fight" them and make them a muslim. We are allowed to fight if non muslim fight us first. Muhammad and his companions always fight after ask them (the non muslim) to be a muslim and give them a good knowledge about Islam.

[north_malaysian]

If you feel Islam is true, and you feel its teachings offer hope in life today and the hereafter, why would you not share it with others? Isn't that what the quote below tells you to do? As I Christian, I share the message of Christ with others because that's what He did, and what He told His followers to do.

Most Muslims only preach Islam, when non Muslims ask them something about Islam.

But no worries, many Muslim groups behaving like Christian missionaries today to gain converts. The main country sponsoring these groups are Saudi, Kuwait, Libya, Iran and Malaysia.

[Woodrow]

If you feel Islam is true, and you feel its teachings offer hope in life today and the hereafter, why would you not share it with others? Isn't that what the quote below tells you to do? As I Christian, I share the message of Christ with others because that's what He did, and what He told His followers to do.

That is true. Yet I am opposed to prostylization. I feel that the best way to teach others about Islam is to live a life that is in the best manner possible. To be honest to others in replies to their question to try to set an example of what life as a Muslim is like. Then if others desire to know of my beliefs to share them with them. I feel I share through my actions better then I ever could through words. As I speak freely and open of my love of Islam here, I am not imposing myself upon others as people that come to this forum are aware it is a Muslim forum and they should expect that the forum is about Islam and what we believe.

[avk]

Al salam aleikom ,
Dear muslims brothers I will always say as muslims we will always have the right to preach our religion.
As for christians well , if you dont beleive that quran is the word of god because it simply tells people that if they dont follow the path of truth they will be facing consequences , this is evidently wrong because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant why would he not apply it in islam.

As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???


PS: Sister Crystal4Peace , sister can you please contact me inshalla I maybe needing for you assistance in a certain matter. Inshalla the best

Al salam aleikom

[north_malaysian]

That is true. Yet I am opposed to prostylization..

Why? and what do u think about muslim missionaries today?

[Woodrow]

Why? and what do u think about muslim missionaries today?

First be aware I state I am opposed to prostylyzation. Perhaps I have the wrong concept of prostylization. To me prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim. To me it is not setting an example of what Islam is nor is it effective in winning the hearts of people.

Then again I have never met a Muslim missionary and I never had a Muslim approach me to become Muslim when I was an Agnostic. Perhaps my views would be different if I knew what it was a Muslim Missionary does.

[north_malaysian]

prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim.

Ohh, this kind of missions.... never heard of it done by Muslims.

Then again I have never met a Muslim missionary and I never had a Muslim approach me to become Muslim when I was an Agnostic. Perhaps my views would be different if I knew what it was a Muslim Missionary does.

When did u converted to Islam, because I think this mass production of Muslim missionaries just started in 2000. From what I've heard tablighi jemaat sent 25,000 missionaries to China.

[Woodrow]

Ohh, this kind of missions.... never heard of it done by Muslims.



When did u converted to Islam, because I think this mass production of Muslim missionaries just started in 2000. From what I've heard tablighi jemaat sent 25,000 missionaries to China.

I reverted just last year in March of 2005

[Phil12123]

[QUOTE=avk;418481]

The world today is not like the middle ages or medieval times. Today, at least in the West, you as a Muslim can preach all you want to anyone you want. Many may ignore you but no one would arrest you. Not so, unfortuately, in Muslim countries where they have no freedom of religion to spread the truth if it disagrees with the official state religion of Islam.

Yes I agree totally to that however , you did not seem to get my point and diveresed away. Im saying is the world of the west today are not practicing christian laws in their judical systems (their govermental system) they are practicing secular system. If they were truely practicing a christian system or a christian state then we would have a different type of goverment other than Bush administration or Blairs office. Today in the US , strip clubs are allowed (against the bible) and prostitution allowed(also goes against christian judical laws) these are simple examples that the US is not truely practicing the christian law.

I'm not getting your point because your point is based on misinformation. In the U.S. there is separation of church and state. There is no "christian system or a christian state." No religion determines what is permitted or not permitted. Things that are permitted, such as strip clubs, are condemned by Christians but the secular state permits them under the freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. No one is allowed to force his religious beliefs on anyone else. So an atheist is free to go to the strip club, for example, and no one can force him to believe he shouldn't. Of course, Christians try to do what they can, within the secular law framework, to limit such things, like with zoning laws, etc.

Now lets look back through history at an era which did practice a christian state, i.e. the church. The church were always specificying how they are the deciples and sons of god and how theier system must be practicied as civil law and govermental law. So lets look at how they used to apply these laws. They used to follow the bible and at the same time anyone who would go against their teachings (apostates) would be killed.

What history book are you reading? Are you talking about the Catholic Inquisition?

In a point of history in that time many christians argued against the tirinitarian system and were slaughetered in masses by the church.

Again, where and when do you read that in any history?

So now lets say America today wants to follow the christian system 100% unlike what its doing today , then If I as a muslim go and preach my religion I WOULD BE SLAUGHTERED by the church because im going against their beleif. Thus your faith my friend does not tolerate other religions , and dont say United states because US is not a fully christian land or country thats why its ok for muslims to preach there not because your religion is tolerant.

First, that is a strawman argument. America does not follow, and can't follow, "the christian system 100%" because there is no such thing. You would NOT be slaughtered by any church for going against its beliefs, not today anyway. There are many different religions practicing their beliefs in America. No ONE is allowed to be a state religion, not Christianity, not any other. ALL religions are tolerated. So your whole argument is senseless.

Peace

[north_malaysian]

I reverted just last year in March of 2005

Wow, and no Muslim missionaries preaching to you in texas? Maybe this method is only used to islamized the 3rd world nations' non muslims.

So the next Ramadhan, will be your first Ramadhan in your life? I love Ramadhan.

[Phil12123]

First be aware I state I am opposed to prostylyzation. Perhaps I have the wrong concept of prostylization. To me prostylization is going into other peoples homes and condeming them for not being Muslim. To me it is not setting an example of what Islam is nor is it effective in winning the hearts of people.

I had to look that word up. It is "proselyting" or "proselytizing" or "proselytism" and the noun means "the practice of making converts."

I don't think I would make many converts by going into a Muslim home and condemning them for being Muslim, or into a non-Muslim home and condemning them for not being a Muslim.

As a Christian, I am commanded ("the Great Commission") to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, or to make disciples of all nations. Obviously, making disciples = making converts. So a Christian is commanded to proselytize. But in a Muslim country, the task is nearly impossible if to be a convert a Muslim is guilty of treason, as you say he should be prosecuted for. Talk about intolerance! And the Quran says there is no compulsion??? Where is the freedom of conscience, the freedom to believe whatever I want to believe. Why would that be anyone's business but my own?

Peace

[avk]

Al salam aleikom brothers and sisters,
this is a repost of something I posted eariler in this forum :
Dear muslims brothers I will always say as muslims we will always have the right to preach our religion.

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???


PS: Sister Crystal4Peace , sister can you please contact me inshalla I maybe needing for you assistance in a certain matter. Inshalla the best


as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims
Al salam aleikom

[dougmusr]

That is true. Yet I am opposed to prostylization. I feel that the best way to teach others about Islam is to live a life that is in the best manner possible. To be honest to others in replies to their question to try to set an example of what life as a Muslim is like. Then if others desire to know of my beliefs to share them with them. I feel I share through my actions better then I ever could through words. As I speak freely and open of my love of Islam here, I am not imposing myself upon others as people that come to this forum are aware it is a Muslim forum and they should expect that the forum is about Islam and what we believe.

I think you would agree that the prophets your faith reveres did not share your feelings about prostylization or they would not have paid for it with their lives. It would seem to me that you would follow the example of those you felt God held in honor for their faith.

[Phil12123]

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

Not sure your analogy applies. "Freedom of expression" should permit people to say whatever they want, with certain well recognized exceptions (you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, etc.). Using drugs is not saying anything; it is conduct that can be prohibited for the good of the offender and the society he is a member of.

Every country is sovereign. It is true, therefore, that any country can make laws prohibiting the preaching of the Christian Gospel, as Saudi Arabia has done, for example. Christians within such country and subject to its jurisdiction must obey its laws or be prepared to face the consequences. A similar situation existed when Peter was preaching and the Jews ordered him to stop. His response? It is recorded in Acts 5:29 - - But Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than men." The consequence? The high priest and council did not like that and "took counsel to slay them" (verse 33). But a very wise Pharisee named Gamaliel advised against that, saying,

38. "And so my advice is, leave these men alone. If what they teach and do is merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown.
39. But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop them, lest you find yourselves fighting even against God.''
40. The Council accepted his advice, called in the apostles, had them beaten, and then told them never again to speak in the name of Jesus, and finally let them go.
41. They left the Council chamber rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer dishonor for his name.
42. And every day, in the Temple and in their home Bible classes, they continued to teach and preach that Jesus is the Messiah.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So, what you're saying, if I understand your post, is that Islam needs the laws and acts of an islamic state "for a muslim community to stand tall"? Islam needs laws to hold it up, or the people would not follow it? So what you have is forced believers, making people believe by force of the laws, etc.? You need compulsion among Muslims or Islam would fall?

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???

Because the God of the Old Testament is not saying it.

as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims

Please explain. The "no compulsion" verse applies to non-Muslims? Meaning what? Non-Muslims are under no compulsion to follow Islam? But they can't follow their own religion, without being killed?

Peace

[dougmusr]

Al salam aleikom brothers and sisters,
this is a repost of something I posted eariler in this forum :
Dear muslims brothers I will always say as muslims we will always have the right to preach our religion.

If the country wanted to ask everyone for the freedom of expression , then why dont they offer drugs and needles and whomever chooses to use them uses them. the same concept is applied to islamic countries against teaching of christian missionaries under their jurisdiction.

As for christians well , the same concept existed in the old testament which you beleive its the word of god ; so why not god is applying the same for islam, evidently its wrong by christians to think otherwise because the same concept exists in the old testmant which you guys beleive its the word of god.
"Whomever preaches against another god will be stoned to death" so evidently speaking god applied such a law in the old testmant
As muslims , Mohammad (SAW) taught us that our message must reach and an islamic state must be in action in order for a muslim community to stand tall.

As christians , Jesus (AS) perfectly said in your new testament , "My kingdom is not of this world , but the next" so this clearly shows how christians teaching dont have to have a christian state.

So christians brothers, if god of the old testament did preach about killing people who preach about another god , why dont you accept it for islam???


PS: Sister Crystal4Peace , sister can you please contact me inshalla I maybe needing for you assistance in a certain matter. Inshalla the best


as for the verse in the noble quran :" there is no compulsion in religion" it only applies to people of the book or non muslims. But does not apply to muslims
Al salam aleikom

I'm under the impression that Islam holds that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were once in a pure form and were given by the God of Islam. While Islam may doubt the accuracy of these writings as they exist today, wouldn't that make Christians errant Muslims, not followers of other God's?

As a Christian, I would follow this parable of Jesus when it comes to followers of other religions.

Mat 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

When Christ returns, and I know you believe He will, it will be up to Him to uproot those who are truly in error. If a person is to receive eternal life, it must be received prior to death. By killing those who follow other teachings, you have taken the judgment seat from Christ and sealed their fate eternally.
God, as I understand, does not consider a forced conversion to be true saving faith. I think Christ was saying that the grace and forgiveness of God permits people to live who deserve death for their disobedience in order to offer them a chance to repent.

[Woodrow]

Wow, and no Muslim missionaries preaching to you in texas? Maybe this method is only used to islamized the 3rd world nations' non muslims.

So the next Ramadhan, will be your first Ramadhan in your life? I love Ramadhan.

It will be my first Ramadhan, as a Muslim. All my life I was a strong believer in the value of fasting as a means of feeding the spirit. So, in that sense the fasting part will be familiar, but now I will also know the joy of fasting as a Muslim. The best part is I now live with my daughter and her family, so there will be a plus to Ramadhan.

[avk]

The old testament perfectly states:
“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

[dougmusr]

[Quote]The old testament perfectly states:
“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.[\Quote]

I'm glad you recognize the authority of the Old Testament in matters of faith. If you are using this verse to justify killing people of other faiths, then you must also recognize that the verse was addressed to Israel. Are you saying that you feel Israel would be justified in killing Muslims if they feel the God of Islam is not the God of Israel?

[avk]

Al salam aleikom ,
What im saying my friend is this:
1- You beleive that its impossible for islam to be from god because god is not giving any "democratic" laws concerning faith.

2- Now in your old testament (which you beleive is the word of god) god ordered to kill someone preaching against god.

3- Now if your god of the old testament accepted these laws then its possible that he put the same laws for islam.

4- As for me I do not beleive in the old testament because the quran clearly said (yo hare fo na ho ) they deceptively rewrite it (Im not sure the definiton of the word in english) , however if you come and attack islam for not being so democratic about other faiths , will the concept was made by god before so why not in islam.

[north_malaysian]

It will be my first Ramadhan, as a Muslim. All my life I was a strong believer in the value of fasting as a means of feeding the spirit. So, in that sense the fasting part will be familiar, but now I will also know the joy of fasting as a Muslim. The best part is I now live with my daughter and her family, so there will be a plus to Ramadhan.

I love Ramadhan... so much... the nights are different!!!!

[dougmusr]

Al salam aleikom ,
What im saying my friend is this:
1- You beleive that its impossible for islam to be from god because god is not giving any "democratic" laws concerning faith.

2- Now in your old testament (which you beleive is the word of god) god ordered to kill someone preaching against god.

3- Now if your god of the old testament accepted these laws then its possible that he put the same laws for islam.

4- As for me I do not beleive in the old testament because the quran clearly said (yo hare fo na ho ) they deceptively rewrite it (Im not sure the definiton of the word in english) , however if you come and attack islam for not being so democratic about other faiths , will the concept was made by god before so why not in islam.

Could you give me the specific Quran reference you are referring to in assertion 4? Also, could you provide scripture references to one or more Old Testament passages which you believe were deceptively altered, and justify your claim that the original text was altered by providing the original as well as the altered version?

Here's how I understand your statements thus far. The Old Testament verse you cited says that followers of other gods should be killed. The Old Testament was deceptively rewritten. The verse you cite might have been added as part of this deception, and in fact God may not have even commanded it. I should therefore understand why the God of Islam would include in the Quran a command similar to one in the errant and deceptively rewritten Old Testament. Would this be correct?

[avk]

Could you give me the specific Quran reference you are referring to in assertion 4? Also, could you provide scripture references to one or more Old Testament passages which you believe were deceptively altered, and justify your claim that the original text was altered by providing the original as well as the altered version?

Brother of the book , read this reference of the Book of God inshalla surah 2:79


Here's how I understand your statements thus far. The Old Testament verse you cited says that followers of other gods should be killed. The Old Testament was deceptively rewritten. The verse you cite might have been added as part of this deception, and in fact God may not have even commanded it. I should therefore understand why the God of Islam would include in the Quran a command similar to one in the errant and deceptively rewritten Old Testament. Would this be correct?

Brother Im not saying this verse was put in there, I do not know if was altered or not this is not what im focusing on. But another brother of the book in this thread commented about the treason of people preaching publicly christianity in islamic states. He says its un fair for islamic state to not give the public the right to decide. Thus what im saying is if you cannot accept this law from god in the Quran why do you accept it in then old testament.

Anyway , I beleive the whole conversation was diverted away from the real subject, and you misunderstood my thesis.

salam

[dougmusr]

Thanks for the Quran reference. Pardon me since I don't know Arabic, but in three english translations, it does not mention the Bible but the Book. Nevertheless, even if the Book means the Bible, these verses don't say the Bible was altered, it is more like a judgement on those who would do it, particularly for monetary gain. So I did a quick search to find out what the Quran has to say about Christians and the Bible. Here's what I came up with.

002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

This verse seems to support the scriptures preceeding the Quran.

004.136
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

These seem to show that God recognizes the Bible as being His Word.

005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

In the following verse, God declared the scriptures trustworthy and told the Prophet to verify his revelation against them. This means as late as 632AD the scriptures were accurate.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

In fact, God even promised to protect them from alteration.

006.115
YUSUFALI: The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
PICKTHAL: Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

The Prophet even liked Christians.

005.082
YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
SHAKIR: Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

Thanks again for the reference. I'll have to study the Qran some more.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

This may be true, I dont know. Yet, it does not answer the question. Should the same penalty be given to a Muslim that attempts to convert a non-muslim?

If they forcibly try to probably..because there is no compulsion in Islam. A Muslim cannot force a non muslim to convert. The most we can do it tell them about it and invite them. If they do not want to listen its up to them. Allah guides who he chooses.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I had to look that word up. It is "proselyting" or "proselytizing" or "proselytism" and the noun means "the practice of making converts."

I don't think I would make many converts by going into a Muslim home and condemning them for being Muslim, or into a non-Muslim home and condemning them for not being a Muslim.

As a Christian, I am commanded ("the Great Commission") to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, or to make disciples of all nations. Obviously, making disciples = making converts. So a Christian is commanded to proselytize. But in a Muslim country, the task is nearly impossible if to be a convert a Muslim is guilty of treason, as you say he should be prosecuted for. Talk about intolerance! And the Quran says there is no compulsion??? Where is the freedom of conscience, the freedom to believe whatever I want to believe. Why would that be anyone's business but my own?

Peace

Dont base actions of some Muslims on all. Those who know that compulsion is not allowed will know not too force another. Ive had people tell me about Christianity and i respect it because if i was in there position i prolly would too. I thank Allah for the religion im in.

[Phil12123]

This verse seems to support the scriptures preceeding the Quran.

004.136
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

These seem to show that God recognizes the Bible as being His Word.

005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

In the following verse, God declared the scriptures trustworthy and told the Prophet to verify his revelation against them. This means as late as 632AD the scriptures were accurate.

010.094
YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

In fact, God even promised to protect them from alteration.

006.115
YUSUFALI: The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
PICKTHAL: Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Wow, great research. Powerful stuff, especially if the Quran itself supports the idea that the Bible was accurate as late as 632 AD. I wonder when the idea started that at some time apparently AFTER 632 AD the Bible was corrupted or changed or no longer accurate. I don't think I've seen any evidence offered to support that claim on this board or anywhere else. It just seems like something Muslims repeat over and over with no evidence, just to avoid the clear teachings of the Bible.

Peace

[kormath]

People by nature are very ethnocentric.

Since 9/11 Muslims have been looked at as “bad” from some people in western counties. However, more and more people are becoming educated in Islam because of this focus on Muslims. So, though, more people feel a sort of unfriendliness towards Muslims, there seems to be an equilibrium effect going on because more people are becoming very understanding. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 20 years or so, most of the western world would be very understanding of the Islamic way.

This view is product of sncere mind, of course. Thanks

[kormath]

[QUOTE=dougmusr;422532]Could you give me the specific Quran reference you are referring to in assertion 4? Also, could you provide scripture references to one or more Old Testament passages which you believe were deceptively altered, and justify your claim that the original text was altered by providing the original as well as the altered version?

Yes, my dear friend.
Yes, I am ready to give you the specific Quran reference . Please read the following verse:

[S]The woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say, "This is from Alllah", to purchase with it a little price. Woe to them for what their hands have witten and woe to them for that they earn thereby. [2:79][/S]
Let me give you some Old and New Testament passages which show that they are among the altered version.
Deotoronomy is beleived to be written by Moses. If it so, then how can he wirite his death news? Please read this passage:


[S]And Moses, servant of the Lord, dieth there, in the land of Moab, according to the command of Jehovah;
and He burieth him in a valley in the land of Moab, over-against Beth-Peor, and no man hath known his burying place unto this day.
And Moses `is' a son of a hundred and twenty years when he dieth; his eye hath not become dim, nor hath his moisture fled.
And the sons of Israel bewail Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; and the days of weeping `and' mourning for Moses are completed.
[Deotoronomy 34: 5-8][/S]Moses writes his death news?

We cannot see the verse of Mark :15: 28 in some authorities. So, we see in the footnote of Revised Standard Version as following:

[S]Other ancient authorities insert verse 28:
And the scripture was fulfilled which says,"He was reckoned with the transgressers.
[Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)St. Paul Publications 1979] p.176[/S]
Mark 16: 9-20 Passages are also omitted from authorities:
[S]And he, having risen in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, did appear first to Mary the Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven demons;
she having gone, told those who had been with him, mourning and weeping;
and they, having heard that he is alive, and was seen by her, did not believe.
And after these things, to two of them, as they are going into a field, walking, he was manifested in another form,
and they having gone, told to the rest; not even them did they believe.
Afterwards, as they are reclining (at meat), he was manifested to the eleven, and did reproach their unbelief and stiffness of heart, because they believed not those having seen him being raised;
and he said to them, `Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation;
he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
`And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak;
serpents they shall take up; and if any deadly thing they may drink, it shall not hurt them; on the ailing they shall lay hands, and they shall be well.'
The Lord, then, indeed, after speaking to them, was received up to the heaven, and sat on the right hand of God;
and they, having gone forth, did preach everywhere, the Lord working with `them', and confirming the word, through the signs following. Amen.

See [Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)St. Paul Publications 1979]p.180[/S]