Submitting to God's Will

[Duncan]

One of the Most difficult concepts to get across, is the concept that True Jews were/are Muslim.

A Muslim is a person who submits to the Will of God(swt) so to say that the Jews were not Muslim is to say they did/do not submit to the will of God(swt)

There always were Muslims since the creation of the first being capable of submitting to the Will of God(swt).

I don't post here much. Mainly because I don't like to waste my time on illogical arguements. I do want to make a point on this statement, which you can hear muslims claim over and over again. My silent answer is always - "So why don't you?'

If the Jews possess Israel, surely this is Gods will. So, are all of you as muslims going to submit or not. Don't bother saying it is not Gods will as saying so would mean that the Jews are more powerful than God. It's really funny, but you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose by submitting to the will of God. It would appear to me, and other I would hope, that Gods will is what muslims want it to be, not what it really is. Does this mean someone is going to have to take it on the chin. Well, yes it does, get over it. You put up a great fight, now it's time to reconcile and get on with your lives.

BTW, I am a Deist, and fully believe that God gave us reason for a reason. Man gave us religion to control us. Pretty simple really, and very effective. Just ask the late L. Ron Hubbard.

Duncan

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Duncan,
Welcome to the forum. Your post caught my attention, though it is more suitable for the comparative religion section.

If the Jews possess Israel, surely this is Gods will. So, are all of you as muslims going to submit or not.

How do you know it is not God's will that the Israeli occupation would occur to test the Muslims and allow them to struggle against it for their rights and for justice? Yes, it was God's will that the Jews would take Israel just as it is His will that Muslims would oppose the injustice. God has decreed for Muslims that they oppose injustice and oppression so they submit to His will by doing just that.

Your argument is analogous to a robber who breaks into a bank and says, "It was God's will that I break into this bank, so submit to His will by giving me your money" ! Sorry, but submitting to God's will does not entail allowing criminal activity, oppression, injustice or anything else for that matter to occur. When you speak of these events happening by the will of God, you are referring to His universal will (iraadah kawniyyah). EVERYTHING, without exception, submits to God's universal will as God controls everything that happens in the universe. When we say we are Muslims it means that we submit to His legislative will (iraadah shar'iyyah) in addition to His universal will. So God has legislated for us to enjoin rightousness and forbid evil and injustice. He has enjoined for us to pray, to fast and to give in charity. When we do these things, we are submitting to His legislative will in addition to His universal will. When someone commits a sin they are submitting only to God's universal will, not His legislative will.

Regards

[Duncan]

Hi Ansar,

How do I know it's Gods will that the Jews posses Israel? Well, I don't, but then neither do you. I deal with reality, I deal with what is, not what I want it to be, or what I think it should be. Why is it that when something happens muslims say 'It's Gods will', but in regard to the Jews it is not. I am sitting here trying to think of a nice way to answer your 'Robber' analogy without building a straw/man of my own, but we are not talking about a bank robber, are we? The robber is of course representing the Israelies, but if I apply that logic to, say 9/11, then all of Islam is the enemy, and I am compeled to fight you forever. Not a good plan if you ask me.

You say: So God has legislated for us to enjoin rightousness and forbid evil and injustice (can't find how to make the quote on this board)

And just who is it that gets to be the judge, and jury in forbidding evil and injustice, you, the whole of the islamic world? Who is it that gets to determine right from wrong? This statement leads to nothing good. Just for the record, and it is not my wish to offen you, but God doesn't want you to do anything. It gave you a free will, and reason. Nothing more, use it.

Do I think the Palistinians got a bad deal? Of course they did. They fought back, they lost. Time to move on. How much richer would the lives of every Palistinian be if they has accepted the new borders after the first conflicts where over? (By richer I do not mean in money) They will surely end up with less now.

I will say this again - You (meaning any muslim who feels that endless conflict is perferable to peace) have nothing to lose, and everything to gain by moving on with your lives. Even if the Jews left all of the ME, you will still lose.

Man, I'm tired, starting to ramble, and it's only 10 pm. Good night.

Duncan

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

And just who is it that gets to be the judge, and jury in forbidding evil and injustice, you, the whole of the islamic world? Who is it that gets to determine right from wrong?

Three little letters. U S A. I thought everybody knew that.

This statement leads to nothing good. Just for the record, and it is not my wish to offen you, but God doesn't want you to do anything.

You should really elaborate on that part. How do you know what God wants us to do? As it is, it just makes you look like you get divine intervention.

Do I think the Palistinians got a bad deal? Of course they did. They fought back, they lost. Time to move on.

And exactly how are they supposed to move on? They've been in a war with Israel for over 50 years and it doesn't seem like it's going to end anytime soon.

How much richer would the lives of every Palistinian be if they has accepted the new borders after the first conflicts where over? (By richer I do not mean in money)

How much richer would the lives of every Israeli be if they stopped creating new borders? Answer: Lots.

They will surely end up with less now.

It's not a matter of "will end up" anymore.

I will say this again - You (meaning any muslim who feels that endless conflict is perferable to peace) have nothing to lose,

There are very few who actually hold that view. Not denying that there are a few planks, though. But that's down to human error, nothing else.

and everything to gain by moving on with your lives.

Many of us have got on with our lives. Infact, many of us are quite happy at the moment.

Even if the Jews left all of the ME, you will still lose.

Lose what? Besides, nobody wants all of the jews to leave the ME. What is wanted is (with regards to ME) is that countries get out of others and live in peace. Sadly, too many humans in power have not mastered their basic teachings. A sure sign of immaturity. And possible our end.

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[Duncan]

:sl:

You should really elaborate on that part. How do you know what God wants us to do? As it is, it just makes you look like you get divine intervention.

If you read it it says 'God doesns't want you to do anything', if I had this intervention as you put it I would have said 'God wants you to do nothing'. After much reading, and long ago discussions, I have come to the belief that God, whatever it is, does not want anything from me, you, anyone. It's odd you would even say that, when it is followers of your faith that seem to feel they know what God wants. So how is it that Ansar knows that Gods legislative will is that we " enjoin rightousness and forbid evil and injustice."? Are you going to ask him if he has divine intervention? No, I thought not. Nice double standard you have there.


And exactly how are they supposed to move on? They've been in a war with Israel for over 50 years and it doesn't seem like it's going to end anytime soon.

There is a sometimes quoted euphemism is some western papers, "Palistinians never pass up and opportunity to pass up an opportunity". 50 years, my god. How many great scientist, and medical people did the world lose? How many cures, and discoveries? By asking the question you are in effect saying the fight must continue because, you/they can't think of anything else to do. Here is novel idea. Stop fighting(everyone), get the best deal you can, work from there. I know it is not what they want, but your, implied, alternative is just not workable.

There are very few who actually hold that view. Not denying that there are a few planks, though. But that's down to human error, nothing else.
Many of us have got on with our lives. Infact, many of us are quite happy at the moment.

I'm glad to hear that. My original post was in a thread concerning the current conflict going on, not the muslim world in general.

Lose what? Besides, nobody wants all of the jews to leave the ME. What is wanted is (with regards to ME) is that countries get out of others and live in peace. Sadly, too many humans in power have not mastered their basic teachings. A sure sign of immaturity. And possible our end.

As above. My original post was in a thread concerning the current conflict going on, not the muslim world in general.

My last word on this. Thank you.

Duncan

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

How do I know it's Gods will that the Jews posses Israel? Well, I don't, but then neither do you. I deal with reality, I deal with what is, not what I want it to be, or what I think it should be. Why is it that when something happens muslims say 'It's Gods will', but in regard to the Jews it is not.

You're confusing the future with what has already come about. As you said, neither you nor I can speak with certainty about what God's will is for the future. But on one hand there is the fact that the Israeli occupation has occured (which every Muslim believes happened according to God's will) and on the other hand there is the remaining question, "What are we going to do about it?" We have already agreed that it was only by God's will that any event - including the Israeli occupation - occured. Yes, it was God's will that the Isreali occupation would occur. No, it was not God's will that the Muslims shut up and do nothing about it.

I am sitting here trying to think of a nice way to answer your 'Robber' analogy without building a straw/man of my own, but we are not talking about a bank robber, are we? The robber is of course representing the Israelies, but if I apply that logic to, say 9/11, then all of Islam is the enemy, and I am compeled to fight you forever. Not a good plan if you ask me.

First of all, you have taken what was an analogy for a theological question and applied it to a political one. Secondly, you have erroneously claimed that utilising the same analogy, Islam would be to blame for 9/11. Excuse me?? When did I say that Judaism was to be blamed for injustices committed by the Israeli government? When did I even talk about injustices comitted by the Israeli government?!? Clearly you are not following the discussion very well.

You say: So God has legislated for us to enjoin rightousness and forbid evil and injustice (can't find how to make the quote on this board)

And just who is it that gets to be the judge, and jury in forbidding evil and injustice, you, the whole of the islamic world? Who is it that gets to determine right from wrong?

God. For that purpose He has revealed to humanity a complete system of laws by which to follow. This is in response to your general theological question. If you still have Israel and the political situation in mind then what is right and what is wrong is clearly recognizable to every human being. If you want to discuss the right and the wrong with regard to the state of Israel, the world affairs section is the appropriate section for that.

Just for the record, and it is not my wish to offen you, but God doesn't want you to do anything. It gave you a free will, and reason. Nothing more, use it.

I do not believe in a foolish or wicked God who aimlessly created humanity and then neglected it to eternal chaos and confusion. No, God has indeed given us free will and the ability to reason and He intends us to use it to follow the divine laws in enjoining righteousness and forbidding evil and suffering. Whosoever does that will be rewarded in the next life, and whosoever opposes that will recieve a just penalty.

I'm not interested in the political comments for now; that can be saved for the world affairs section.